Arabians with hock and stifle problems
Donna Thompson
stifles ? Is it the trainers ? Lungeing to much at an
early age ? Bloodlines ? not collected properly?
I know of a stallion (6 or 7 yrs old) who is shown in
halter,driving and liberty that is unsound in his hocks. He is
not rideable due to the fact that when ridden the horse goes
unsound and can't not maintain the canter without cross firing.
In libery this horse never canters without cross firing .
Also know of another stallion who is now retired at 13 years
old who that during his show career had unsoundness problems
in his hocks and stifles. Also had some problems with his front
legs. These stallion are both over 15.0 with fine bone and
little mule shaped feet.
I own a 14.3 hd mare who is now 20 years old that has done
dressage,jumping,western pleasure,hunter pleasure,worked cows.
trail ridden.ponied young stock and taught my 15 year old son
how to ride and show who is still sound in wind and limb. Guess
we are lucky to own such a horse
I can't seem to understand why unsound horses win at Halter
and why people keep breeding to them.
donna
C.M.Newell
>Why are Arabians coming up with lameness in there hocks and
>stifles ? Is it the trainers ?
I'm sure they have a contributory effect.
> Lungeing to much at an
>early age ? Bloodlines ?
Ahh, now we're on to something--check out a lot of the popular
sires--they're "living art". They strike a pose with a butt so flat
you could put a tea tray on it. How can a horse built like that get
his hind end under him?
not collected properly?
> I know of a stallion (6 or 7 yrs old) who is shown in
>halter,driving and liberty that is unsound in his hocks. He is
>not rideable due to the fact that when ridden the horse goes
>unsound and can't not maintain the canter without cross firing.
>In libery this horse never canters without cross firing .
Sounds like gelding material to me....
>Also know of another stallion who is now retired at 13 years
>old who that during his show career had unsoundness problems
>in his hocks and stifles. Also had some problems with his front
>legs. These stallion are both over 15.0 with fine bone and
>little mule shaped feet.
Another gelding prospect...
> I own a 14.3 hd mare who is now 20 years old that has done
>dressage,jumping,western pleasure,hunter pleasure,worked cows.
>trail ridden.ponied young stock and taught my 15 year old son
>how to ride and show who is still sound in wind and limb. Guess
>we are lucky to own such a horse
> I can't seem to understand why unsound horses win at Halter
>and why people keep breeding to them.
Money. The emperor has no clothes, but no one wants to hear that.
There are still a lot of people out here breeding sound and useful
Arabs, but they don't put all their time and money into promoting
them in the show ring. (I do it for fun, but I don't take it any more
seriously than a wet T-shirt contest). The largest herd of Arabs I
know (about 140) has a high percentage of sound horses in their teens
and older which are perfectly sound, and have never had a problem bar
accidents, but the owner doesn't show them. (He'll sell you one
though, if you ask nicely.)
--CMNewell
MINGLEWOOD--Davenport Arabians--old desrt blood
"If truth is impossible, so is the lie
There's no in-between, you can't swim, you can't fly
At the uttermost link at the end of our chain
Only the Strange remain"--R.Hunter
Corey Lee Bishop
: Donna Thompson <ba...@usit.net> wrote:
: >Why are Arabians coming up with lameness in there hocks and
: >stifles ? Is it the trainers ?
: I'm sure they have a contributory effect.
: > Lungeing to much at an
: >early age ? Bloodlines ?
: Ahh, now we're on to something--check out a lot of the popular
: sires--they're "living art". They strike a pose with a butt so flat
: you could put a tea tray on it. How can a horse built like that get
: his hind end under him?
Yes.... sigh.... Too damn many breeders get into this 'tabletop croup thing.
I agree with Mrs. T. who has harranged about it so much that a good strong
hip is now called a 'Bazy Butt!'
: not collected properly?
: > I know of a stallion (6 or 7 yrs old) who is shown in
: >halter,driving and liberty that is unsound in his hocks. He is
: >not rideable due to the fact that when ridden the horse goes
: >unsound and can't not maintain the canter without cross firing.
: >In libery this horse never canters without cross firing .
: Sounds like gelding material to me....
Not only gelding material, but soon to be dog food.
: >Also know of another stallion who is now retired at 13 years
: >old who that during his show career had unsoundness problems
: >in his hocks and stifles. Also had some problems with his front
: >legs. These stallion are both over 15.0 with fine bone and
: >little mule shaped feet.
: Another gelding prospect...
More dog food.
: > I own a 14.3 hd mare who is now 20 years old that has done
: >dressage,jumping,western pleasure,hunter pleasure,worked cows.
: >trail ridden.ponied young stock and taught my 15 year old son
: >how to ride and show who is still sound in wind and limb. Guess
: >we are lucky to own such a horse
: > I can't seem to understand why unsound horses win at Halter
: >and why people keep breeding to them.
: Money. The emperor has no clothes, but no one wants to hear that.
: There are still a lot of people out here breeding sound and useful
: Arabs, but they don't put all their time and money into promoting
: them in the show ring. (I do it for fun, but I don't take it any more
: seriously than a wet T-shirt contest). The largest herd of Arabs I
: know (about 140) has a high percentage of sound horses in their teens
: and older which are perfectly sound, and have never had a problem bar
: accidents, but the owner doesn't show them. (He'll sell you one
: though, if you ask nicely.)
Another couple of large breeders who are stressing soundness are Rush Creek
in Nebraska and Al-Marah in Arizona. Mrs. T. turns the Al-Marah babies
out in the mountains to run for a couple of years. That certainly makes
for strong legs and soundness!
: --CMNewell
: MINGLEWOOD--Davenport Arabians--old desrt blood
:
: "If truth is impossible, so is the lie
: There's no in-between, you can't swim, you can't fly
: At the uttermost link at the end of our chain
: Only the Strange remain"--R.Hunter
Sue B., member of The Al-Marah Breeders Alliance
--
"Inconceivable!"
"You keep using that word. I don' think it means
what you think it means." _The Princess Bride_
"Never underestimate the power of stupidity." Robert Heinlein
NEMOMM
generalities based on your knowledge of only two horses. How many quarter
horses do you know with leg problems? I know plenty!
Donna Thompson
Ahh, now we're on to something--check out a lot of the popular
>sires--they're "living art". They strike a pose with a butt so flat
>you could put a tea tray on it. How can a horse built like that get
>his hind end under him?
> MINGLEWOOD--Davenport Arabians--old desrt blood
I wrote about on my posting are flat butted.
Most Arabians are taught to flatten the croup or are posed
with the left hind leg out behind the other to get the flat
look. I have a half Arab/half Trakhner gelding who is not flat
in his croup but in his show ring photos he has a flat croup.
Also my 20 year old mare who is still sound was not lunged or
broke to ride until she was 4yrs. old. In 1989 I changed her
over to western pleasure by myself and showed the mare without
the aid of a trainer. We were never a bride (1st place) but
always a brides maid (2nd,3rd,4th 5th place).
This mare even beat QH in open western pleasure competion. The
QH judges just loved her big sloping butt.
My mare is now retired from competion to raise foals by my
sloping fanny stallion Bajha Bey V (who is now being taught to
flatten his butt for halter showing).
donna and Bajha Bey V
Mary Rossano
answer. The flat-topped horses with overly wide-set hind legs (usually
found with toes pointing straight ahead) are the new style. It's little
wonder they don't function - they can't move directly, and they often
rotate. Horses which toe out moderately behind are trimmed to point
straight ahead. Grrr...
Mary Rossano
Jessica Snyder
> Ahh, now we're on to something--check out a lot of the popular
>sires--they're "living art". They strike a pose with a butt so flat
>you could put a tea tray on it. How can a horse built like that get
>his hind end under him?
If that horse has a proper deep hip, the fact that he can be
stood up at halter so that his croup is flat in no way affects his
ability to get his rear under him. Lots of those horses who can
strike the pose and be perfectly flat are not flat when relaxed,
and some even have great deep hips and are able to get their
rears under them just fine. Unfortunately, a lot of the halter
arabs are getting their flat croups by having flat hips, and those
animals couldn't collect under themselves to save their lives.
A local stallion here can stand up absolutely flat and smooth,
and is also a marvelous collected Show Hack horse (and Hunt,
and Country Pleasure, etc, etc). He can pull his rear under himself
just fine. Another local stallion stands up with a flat croup and
has a flat hip and camped out hind legs that dangle out behind him
even at liberty... no way could he ever collect. His owners don't
show in performance... they're breeding that living art :) I suspect
he will end up with hock and stifle problems, whereas the former
stud has been actively shown in performance for about the last 8
years, and is perfectly sound.
(sorry, snipped this attribution... this isn't CM's writing:)
>> I can't seem to understand why unsound horses win at Halter
>>and why people keep breeding to them.
a) They can win if they aren't actively lame, and the judge either
can't see or doesn't care that their structure is asking for lameness
in the future. High money ad campaigns and high money handlers help too.
b) People breed to them because they either can't see or don't care
that their structure is asking for lameness in the future. Particularly
people who can't see past the head and neck of the animal. They
breed because "ooooh, he's so pretty". Arabs should indeed be pretty,
but they should also be structurally sound animals.
> Money. The emperor has no clothes, but no one wants to hear that.
>There are still a lot of people out here breeding sound and useful
>Arabs, but they don't put all their time and money into promoting
>them in the show ring. (I do it for fun, but I don't take it any more
>seriously than a wet T-shirt contest). The largest herd of Arabs I
>know (about 140) has a high percentage of sound horses in their teens
>and older which are perfectly sound, and have never had a problem bar
>accidents, but the owner doesn't show them. (He'll sell you one
>though, if you ask nicely.)
Some of those Arabs in the show ring are good, sound, useable horses.
My mare's sire, *Padron, is still sound and healthy from what I understand
and he's in his well into his late teens. He was a Nat. Champ halter horse,
and is producing performance/halter horses who also stay sound and healthy
and compete successfully in reining, driving, hunt seat, western, and
halter. He can stand up with a flat croup, but he has a great hip.
I've been in Arabs for almost 20 years, and I've never known any
breeders/show folk who have consistent lameness problems with their
Arabian show horses. So it depends on the breeding and structure of
the individual critters, I suppose, although I assume some lines are
more prone to trouble than others.
But mostly, people who breed good horses are doing it because they breed
according to their own standards of perfection. They don't care what is
winning in the show ring, although they'll use winning lines if it
gives them what they want in their program. They set an ideal in
their head, and breed for it. Hopefully one aspect of that ideal is
soundness in the animals, but people being what they are, that isn't
always the case :( CM is right, though... they are out there, you just
have to look somewhere other than the show ring to find them all. Most
show sparingly, if at all.
Jessica
------------------------------------------------------------
jrsn...@students.wisc.edu in Madison, WI and the crew:
Kosh (Touchstonešs Harbinger) the Belgian Tervuren pup,
Liza (Padronšs Starlight) the Arabian mommy mare,
Nikki (Fathead), Pixel (Fuzzhead) and Voodoo (Blerthead),
Demon Cats from Hell,
and Keith, the wonderful husband who puts up with all of us.
------------------------------------------------------------
Stethmir
small farms must have this sort of horse to compete because it's too time
consuming and expensive to have a new model every two years. There are
many lasting campaigners on the show circuit. This is especially true of
Arabians showing as hunter pleasure, country pleasure, western pleasure
horses and in the working disciplines. While I am not a fan of some of
the halter horses (who lack the form to function), one can't argue with
horses like Ericaa, the 1995 U.S. Nat'l Ch Mare who has also been 1994
U.S. Nat'l Ch. Engl. Pl. Jr. Horse.
I do think that training abuses are hard on some of these
horses--primarily halter horses and some English Pleasure horses. (Read
Leo Hansen's comments in the last Al Marah newsletter, but note that Bazy
is moving a good Country Horse to English Pleasure, probably because it's
a sale horse and people want to buy the English Pleasure rather than
Country horse for silly reasons of their own.) The breed has not
effectively addressed the abuses of halter horses that lead to injuries
and make those horses mentally unfit for riding.
I also believe that some lines of halter horses are useless for anything
but stand up horses. They are not my cup of tea, but are unlikely to
"ruin" the breed so long as the market for performance horses is so
strong.
I spend a lot of time at shows and know there are many fine, durable
athletes there. Check the pictures; the horses now are markedly better
legged and simply better put together than 20 yrs ago. And, I'd never
breed to a horse that doesn't have a performance record (be that as a
show, race, or endurance horse--depending on what I wanted to produce [I
happen to raise show horses with some going off to the competitive trail
circuit]) because a performance record demonstrates sound mind and body.
Sylvia Glover
Stethmir Arabians
(who cares a lot about function and used Bold Destiny+/ [featured by
Gladys Brown Edwards as an example of good legs] as a basis for her
performance friends)
Donna Thompson
posed with one hind leg out behind the other leg to give the
apparence of being flat. I have a half Arab/half trakhner
gelding who has a sloping croup in his photos taken at the
shows he is flat. Have you ever seen any breed of stallion
tease a mare. Even TB stallions and QHs stallions can flatten
their fannies if a mare is close by.
What about the mare that was shown by Tim Shea at the 1995
nationals in halter. That mare was a performance winner before
being a halter champion.
Please if you think that all Arabians are flat butted go to a
show watch the halter classes then go see the horses in their
stalls. Bet very few are flat butted!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think the way the halter horses are shown is effecting
soundness of the hocks or stifles. Maybe it is something that
is coming back to haunt all those people who believe that their
mares were to valueable to ride in the past. How can you test
a mare for soundness or trainablity if she is not ridden ever?
I am still waiting for Tom Stovall's opinion as he is a
farrier & should know about good legs !!!!!!
donna,Bajha and our arabs with big round butts
Donna Thompson
I could remember the full details on. I do know of other arabs
who have been retired from showing performance at an early age
for hock and stifle problems. What I am trying to find out is
what or why we are having these problems in the breed. Yes I
know about QHs and their leg problems, thats why I don't own
one. What can you expect when some breeds of horses are broke
to ride at 12 to 18 months of age.
donna
Mary Rossano
>
>Arabian Halter horses are taught to flatten their croups or are
>posed with one hind leg out behind the other leg to give the
>apparence of being flat. I have a half Arab/half trakhner
>gelding who has a sloping croup in his photos taken at the
>shows he is flat. Have you ever seen any breed of stallion
>tease a mare. Even TB stallions and QHs stallions can flatten
>their fannies if a mare is close by.
I own and show Arabians, and I know that training is a large part of the
flat croup look - but the more naturally level the horse is, the less you
have to work on getting it to look level. I would argue that the horses
who are successful in halter tend to be more level than horses who excel
in performance.
>What about the mare that was shown by Tim Shea at the 1995
>nationals in halter. That mare was a performance winner before
>being a halter champion.
I applaud the judges' decision on Ericca (sp?), but I'm afraid we're
looking at an exception to the trend here. You don't see horses like
*Bask or Huck showing anymore, winning national honors in halter and park
or EP.
>Please if you think that all Arabians are flat butted go to a
>show watch the halter classes then go see the horses in their
>stalls. Bet very few are flat butted!!!!!!!!!!
My own purebred is way too round in the hip and croup to be a halter
horse - but he is a very pretty mover. I guess that's my point. We are
seeing a trend toward halter specialists, and "halter type" isn't doing
well in performance.
>I don't think the way the halter horses are shown is effecting
>soundness of the hocks or stifles.
I don't see the problem as being the result of training. IMO, it's a
deliberate selection of a hind end that doesn't balance well, which is
exacerbated by trimming the horses to stand "square". Take a look at two
recent National Champion stallions, Eternity and Echo Magnifficco (sp?)
from a 3/4 view. Hind toes point straight ahead, the legs are built to
move bow-legged. How could that style of hind end function well on
circles? Were the counter-cantering horses you described also too wide
and straight in back?
>donna,Bajha and our arabs with big round butts
Is Bajha the one who is by Huck and out of a *Bask daughter? I bet he's
got a great set of hind legs!
Mary Rossano
Jessica Snyder
>I own and show Arabians, and I know that training is a large part of the
>flat croup look - but the more naturally level the horse is, the less you
>have to work on getting it to look level. I would argue that the horses
>who are successful in halter tend to be more level than horses who excel
>in performance.
Probably true.
>I applaud the judges' decision on Ericca (sp?), but I'm afraid we're
>looking at an exception to the trend here. You don't see horses like
>*Bask or Huck showing anymore, winning national honors in halter and park
>or EP.
But that is, IMHO, mainly because performance people refuse to train
and show for halter, and vice-versa. Huck may no longer be out there,
but Varian horses are time and time again proving themselves to be
halter AND performance animals, quite often in the same critter. And
I know I've mentioned it before, but *Padron foals regularly win in
both halter AND performance (there is a marvelous Country Pleasure
Driving son of his up here). *Aladdinn foals do the same. So while
many folk may not be showing in both divisions, it doesn't mean their
animals always couldn't compete in both. (Although to be fair,
if Ali Jamaal or Thee Desperado ever manage to display themselves
collected under saddle, I'll eat my hat. The bad rears are out there,
unfortunately)
>My own purebred is way too round in the hip and croup to be a halter
>horse - but he is a very pretty mover. I guess that's my point. We are
>seeing a trend toward halter specialists, and "halter type" isn't doing
>well in performance.
Not true. Halter type is an incredible variety of breeding, and many
are fully capable of doing well in performance (and do). I'll say something
heretical here: I think most halter horses could compete sucessfully
in a performance discipline if anyone bothered to ask them to, but
that many/most performance horses couldn't place at halter to save
their lives, and I think that is a problem. I wish we still had the
performance requirement for Nationals halter classes (a stronger one,
really) BUT IF you require that, then performance horses should be
required to have a halter ribbon. That's the only way to stop the
breed from separating into performance/halter lines.
>I don't see the problem as being the result of training. IMO, it's a
>deliberate selection of a hind end that doesn't balance well, which is
>exacerbated by trimming the horses to stand "square".
My whole life I thought horses were supposed to have hind legs with
toes that point foreward. Toes that point out were always referred to
as "pointing out", and it was a flaw. Is this different with Arabs?
> Take a look at two
>recent National Champion stallions, Eternity and Echo Magnifficco (sp?)
>from a 3/4 view. Hind toes point straight ahead, the legs are built to
>move bow-legged. How could that style of hind end function well on
>circles?
I've taken many good up-close looks at Eternety. Hind toes do point
straight ahead, but like I said I thought straight hind legs were a good
thing. I don't know what you mean about his hind legs being built
to move bow-legged. I've seen him move, many a time, and he moves
totally normally (quite well, IMHO). Eternety's BIG flaw is how steep
his fetlocks are (almost straight up), and he throws it to almost every
foal of his I've seen. I've only seen Echo in pictures, so I just
don't know what he really looks like. But, I should add, I know someone
with an Eternety daughter that won her yearling Sweepstakes halter
class (yes, with an "evil" professional trainer on the lead) and is
now winning all over the place as a Hunter horse. Magnificent mare.
(and I mean it, Brian... I know you're reading this! Pat Tess for me).
Jessica Snyder
the list of horses that produce both halter and performance
animals the marvelous Khemosabi. He won at both, his kids win at
both, and many of his sons are also siring foals that win
at both.
I'm sure there's others out there, but I can't think of
them all.
Donna Thompson
who is a *Bask daughter. He has great hind legs and a powerful
rear end. Bajha will be shown in open stallion
halter,AOTH,showmanship by my 15 yr. old son this month. Its
going to be interesting to see how Bajha will place in halter.
Bajha will be shown in Liberty this year too.
Steve & Tammy
just because an Arab is a winning halter horse means it can't be a
performer as well. My lovely Crabbet/Egyptian mare was both a halter and
performance champion (in Country English, Hunter and especially
dressage even!) before her death last year. She could level out her
croup with the best of 'em at halter, and then turn around under saddle
and collect right up - I don't know, maybe I was just lucky?!
Tammy
MBowling
>
> Arabians are among the soundest horses. You should not make such
> generalities based on your knowledge of only two horses. How many quarter
> horses do you know with leg problems? I know plenty!
Sadly, modern show horses which are not bred or produced in the Arabian tradition of soundness and using qualities are not worthy of the breed's reputation.
MBowling
> know (about 140) has a high percentage of sound horses in their teens
> and older which are perfectly sound, and have never had a problem bar
> accidents, but the owner doesn't show them. (He'll sell you one
> though, if you ask nicely.)
> MINGLEWOOD--Davenport Arabians--old desrt blood
>
>
>
>
>
Corey Lee Bishop
: Many show horses have long careers and stay sound. Most amateurs and
: small farms must have this sort of horse to compete because it's too time
: consuming and expensive to have a new model every two years. There are
: many lasting campaigners on the show circuit. This is especially true of
: Arabians showing as hunter pleasure, country pleasure, western pleasure
: horses and in the working disciplines. While I am not a fan of some of
: the halter horses (who lack the form to function), one can't argue with
: horses like Ericaa, the 1995 U.S. Nat'l Ch Mare who has also been 1994
: U.S. Nat'l Ch. Engl. Pl. Jr. Horse.
: I do think that training abuses are hard on some of these
: horses--primarily halter horses and some English Pleasure horses. (Read
: Leo Hansen's comments in the last Al Marah newsletter, but note that Bazy
: is moving a good Country Horse to English Pleasure, probably because it's
: a sale horse and people want to buy the English Pleasure rather than
: Country horse for silly reasons of their own.) The breed has not
: effectively addressed the abuses of halter horses that lead to injuries
: and make those horses mentally unfit for riding.
I must have missed that, which horse is Bazy moving to English Pleasure?
She is adamant about showing her horses without using the abusive training
methods, must be one of the really high movers. I saw Dancing Gypsy last
summer, she definitely is a high action mare, naturally so.
As for addressing the abuses, the Arabian HOrse Owners Foundation (of
which I am a member) which has been heavily pushed by Bazy, is dedicated
to stopping Arabian abuse at the shows and in the training barn. If you
are interested in joining, contact Al-Marah for details.
: I also believe that some lines of halter horses are useless for anything
: but stand up horses. They are not my cup of tea, but are unlikely to
: "ruin" the breed so long as the market for performance horses is so
: strong.
I also agree with this. I have a neighbor who breeds 'halter horses.'
He has no interest in breeding performance horses. Sigh. If you can't
RIDE them, what GOOD are they?
: I spend a lot of time at shows and know there are many fine, durable
: athletes there. Check the pictures; the horses now are markedly better
: legged and simply better put together than 20 yrs ago. And, I'd never
: breed to a horse that doesn't have a performance record (be that as a
: show, race, or endurance horse--depending on what I wanted to produce [I
: happen to raise show horses with some going off to the competitive trail
: circuit]) because a performance record demonstrates sound mind and body.
That's one thing that there are more breeders concentrating on. Soundness
is paramount. If the horse doesn't have the ability to be ridden or
shown, then, (barring accidental lameness problems) it should not be bred
from. I am a stickler for this and only have one mare who is lamed, not
due to any conformation problem, but due to contracting whiteline disease
in Florida. She will be bred for the first time this spring.
: Sylvia Glover
: Stethmir Arabians
: (who cares a lot about function and used Bold Destiny+/ [featured by
: Gladys Brown Edwards as an example of good legs] as a basis for her
: performance friends)
Sue Bishop
Toad Hill Arabians
Al-Marah Breeders Alliance
Breeding this spring to AM Gypsy Village, strength and beauty and grace
(with just about the best hip I've EVER seen!)
Corey Lee Bishop
: Hate to follow myself up, but I stupidly forgot to add to
: the list of horses that produce both halter and performance
: animals the marvelous Khemosabi. He won at both, his kids win at
: both, and many of his sons are also siring foals that win
: at both.
: I'm sure there's others out there, but I can't think of
: them all.
Don't forget the fantastic AM Sea Captain. He's in his 20's, still
producing (due to experimental hormone therapy) and his get are winning
in the show ring, in the working cow horse contests, in reining, and
on the endurance trail.
I was greatly impressed by his son, AM Able Tseaman, who was an exceptional
reining horse and is now in endurance. And his lovely daughter AM Tsea Note,
has produced some gorgeous foals (she's owned by a good friend of mine).
I've also got my two year old booked to his son Windance Posidon for 1999!
These are just a few of his many wonderful foals.
: Jessica
: ------------------------------------------------------------
: jrsn...@students.wisc.edu in Madison, WI and the crew:
: Kosh (Touchstonešs Harbinger) the Belgian Tervuren pup,
: Liza (Padronšs Starlight) the Arabian mommy mare,
: Nikki (Fathead), Pixel (Fuzzhead) and Voodoo (Blerthead),
: Demon Cats from Hell,
: and Keith, the wonderful husband who puts up with all of us.
: ------------------------------------------------------------
Sue
Corey Lee Bishop
: This may not have anything to do with anything, but I don't think that
Nah. Not lucky. You just have one of many great Arabians!
: Tammy
Jane Kilberg
jrsn...@students.wisc.edu writes:
>I think most halter horses could compete sucessfully
>in a performance discipline if anyone bothered to ask them to, but
>that many/most performance horses couldn't place at halter to save
>their lives, and I think that is a problem. I wish we still had the
>performance requirement for Nationals halter classes (a stronger one,
>really) BUT IF you require that, then performance horses should be
>required to have a halter ribbon. That's the only way to stop the
>breed from separating into performance/halter lines.
You have it the nail on the head and it isn't just Arabians. All breeds
including AQHA, Appaloosas, Paints, Morgans and so on tend to separate
the halter industry from the performance industry. There are very few
halter horses I would use in the breeding shed due to be changes in them.
The ones I see can't move well and are very stiff jointed. Hooves are
small and legs are like sticks for a good portion of them. The halter
breeders have been breeding for years to get that mighty fine throatlatch
and in doing so, restrict the air intake. These horses can't work for
more than 20 minutes, then they are worn out. Their muscles are large and
for the most part short sprint type, but as they get older, their frames
don't hold it and they have nothing. This is why many an ad shows the
photo of the halter champion in his younger day. The life of a halter
horse is generally short-lived on the average, particularly if he/she is
heavily campaigned.
The original idea of the halter class was to select horses that were top
representatives of the breed. These were using horses off the ranch. They
entered all sorts of performance classes and the halter was the top. You
knew when you bred to a halter champion back in the 40's and 50's and
even early 60's that it was a horse that not only had great conformation,
but could do something. With the advent of professional showmen that
began in the late 50's the separation began, slowly but surely. Today,
they are totally separate communities. Very few champion halter horses
are broke to ride. Their lives are spent in stalls, on walkers or
treadmills and in the breeding barn. And few get to actually service a
real mare, too.
I'm in agreement with you that if halter is to represent the best of a
breed, then by golly, they ought to dang well prove it. Certain classes
could be designated such as rail classes (pleasure) along with the halter
class. I would also give extra points for real performance classes such
as cutting, reining, jumping, hunter over fences and games. This would
definitely separate the real horses from the so-called "best" of the
breed. If you only want to show halter in your particular class or show
in rail or performance classes, fine. You could still have your Champion
Halter Horse and Champion Performance Horse. But you can't vie for
Champion Breed Horse, the best of the best, unless you prove it. Now that
would be a real coveted title for sure.
Unfortunately, halter breeders wouldn't even consider that cause they
have a good thing going and they ain't about to change it.
down the sunny trails . . .
jane kilberg and her gang of spotted 4 legged critters at the
rocking double j ranch in the great nation of Tejas
member of ApHC, Sundance '500' Int'l (Appaloosa appreciation society)
Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
madeline
>
> In article <4kbpi1$8...@news.doit.wisc.edu> Jessica Snyder,
> jrsn...@students.wisc.edu writes:
> >in a performance discipline if anyone bothered to ask them to, but
> >that many/most performance horses couldn't place at halter to save
> >their lives, and I think that is a problem. I wish we still had the
> >performance requirement for Nationals halter classes (a stronger one,
> >really) BUT IF you require that, then performance horses should be
> >required to have a halter ribbon. That's the only way to stop the
> >breed from separating into performance/halter lines.
>
halter horses are becoming useless as workers, just don't breed to them.
Very few TB s make a career of looking good without proving that they
have other value. If the halter people want to wrap their horses up in
cotton wool and show them as if they were Breyer's, thats fine. Let
them, but don't encourage them.
BrendaUSDF
Pinto has the right idea by having classes (that are very
popular, BTW) called "Ideal Pinto Western" and "Ideal Pinto English". They
work the horses under saddle first, like a rail pleasure class, then strip
the saddles off and judge them like a halter class. Around here (NE) the
all-around titles are the most vied for in both Paint & Pinto. There are
several horses that can hold their own in halter and performance both.
Kinda like AQHA used to be before they got so specialized. Paint is going
the specialization route too, I fear. Wish Paint had the Ideal
classes...AQHA too. It would be a step in the right direction. My own
Nat'l Champ halter mare was bred to do both halter & performance, and both
she will do! I refuse to let her retire to broodmare status. I think most
of the halter horses would perform ( the ones that aren't crippled or just
plain goofy), just get that fat off and saddle up!
Brenda
CA...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
Jane Kilberg <jkil...@mcia.com> writes:
>
>In article <4kbpi1$8...@news.doit.wisc.edu> Jessica Snyder,
>jrsn...@students.wisc.edu writes:
>>in a performance discipline if anyone bothered to ask them to, but
>>that many/most performance horses couldn't place at halter to save
>>their lives, and I think that is a problem. I wish we still had the
>>performance requirement for Nationals halter classes (a stronger one,
>>really) BUT IF you require that, then performance horses should be
>>required to have a halter ribbon. That's the only way to stop the
>>breed from separating into performance/halter lines.
>
I have to agree with you (I'm a Quarter horse person and I show in perform
ance). I know a number of "Halter" show people (successful in the show ring)
not only don't show in performance, but they DON'T EVEN RIDE. What I mean is
, they don't even know how to ride, they just breed their horses and raise them
for showing at halter. That's the end of the endeavor. They might as well be
showing dogs - can't ride them either.
Cheryl
pro...@msue.msu.edu
>>including AQHA, Appaloosas, Paints, Morgans and so on tend to separate
>>the halter industry from the performance industry. There are very few
>>halter horses I would use in the breeding shed due to be changes in them.
>>The ones I see can't move well and are very stiff jointed. Hooves are
>>small and legs are like sticks for a good portion of them. The halter
>>breeders have been breeding for years to get that mighty fine throatlatch
>>and in doing so, restrict the air intake. These horses can't work for
>>more than 20 minutes, then they are worn out. Their muscles are large and
>>for the most part short sprint type, but as they get older, their frames
>>don't hold it and they have nothing. This is why many an ad shows the
>>photo of the halter champion in his younger day. The life of a halter
>>horse is generally short-lived on the average, particularly if he/she is
>>heavily campaigned.
Not only are the above short comings often true, but these horses are also
kept very heavy, and even if they COULD breathe, they would have heart attacks
trying to do serious work with all of the extra weight they carry.
John T. Klausner
<jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> writes:
>
>Hate to follow myself up, but I stupidly forgot to add to
>the list of horses that produce both halter and performance
>animals the marvelous Khemosabi. He won at both, his kids win at
>both, and many of his sons are also siring foals that win
>at both.
>
>I'm sure there's others out there, but I can't think of
>them all.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>jrsn...@students.wisc.edu in Madison, WI and the crew:
I like your desire to require Halter horses to show performance -
that's a requirement that should have been strengthened, not dropped,
in my opinion - and I can go along with a requirement that performance
horses be shown in halter IF those classes are conformation classes,
not showmanship classes, which is what Halter has become. I'm not sure
what purpose would be served by requiring a performance horse to show
in a conformation class except as a qualifying requirement, but perhaps
there would be some purpose. This gets back to breeding,
cross-breeding, "terminal" purpose breeding, faults and the results of
faults - all good discussion points. If the Halter classes produce a
horse that cannot perform, then there is a real dichotomy within the
breed. That a performance horse cannot compete in a halter class does
not seem to me to be a problem, since the requirements of the halter
class today are not only for "perfect" conformation (theoretically) but
personality, pretty, and pizazz. The horse can be a good working horse
but not have these. Maybe instead of requiring a performance horse to
be a winner - or placer - in a halter class, there should be a minimum
score of some kind. A standard against which all individuals could be
measured rather than a straight competition. After all, the individual
that places first in one show might stand last in a different group of
horses. The horse is no different, just the competition.
SueK
C. Stevens
>
> snip
>
> I'm in agreement with you that if halter is to represent the best of a
> breed. If you only want to show halter in your particular class or show
> in rail or performance classes, fine. You could still have your Champion
> Halter Horse and Champion Performance Horse. But you can't vie for
> Champion Breed Horse, the best of the best, unless you prove it. Now that
> would be a real coveted title for sure.
>
> Unfortunately, halter breeders wouldn't even consider that cause they
> have a good thing going and they ain't about to change it.
of big QH shows, contestants are required to show in halter in order to be
eligible for circuit awards in individual classes. The halter horses
however, only have to go in halter. I've been in amateur gelding halter
classes with 40 entries, less than 10 of which may have been halter horses.
That's an 8 point class, and the points aren't going to the performance
horses. Some circuits you're lucky to get 20 entries in a performance class.
I don't have a problem with requiring halter for an all-around or even a
circuit award as long as the halter people have do a performance class. Or
the very least would be to charge them more to balance out the extra entry
fees the rest of us are shelling out.
Chris S.
Mary Muller
Welsh Ponies and Cobs(no snikering now!!) We are very fortunate not to
have that problem...most all show both halter and performance....one way
I think our breed has avoided this is that GREAT emphasis is placed on
movement and way of going in the halter classes......something to
consider.....also in our performance divisons we have a Working class
(whaterver disipline, western, english ect.) and a Conformation Class..
the working class judges performance and manners only, while the in the
conformation class, build and breed type is taken into consideration......
do we see the placings change much....nope, not usually in the upper 4
places...sometimes in the lower placings a better built animal will move
up a place or two..but more often than not the halter champions are again
seen winning the performance divisions.....
Marcy Jackson
>Jane:
> Pinto has the right idea by having classes (that are very
>popular, BTW) called "Ideal Pinto Western" and "Ideal Pinto English". They
>work the horses under saddle first, like a rail pleasure class, then strip
>the saddles off and judge them like a halter class. Around here (NE) the
>all-around titles are the most vied for in both Paint & Pinto. There are
>several horses that can hold their own in halter and performance both.
>Kinda like AQHA used to be before they got so specialized.
If you look closely at the AQHA rule book, conformation is to be
considered in the placement of some performance classes. For example,
conditioning and conformation count a minimum of 20% of the total
judging of western pleasure classes. I think that this rule is often
forgotten since the horses don't take their saddles off.
Marcy
---
Marcy Jackson
mjj...@why.net
Dallas, Texas USA
NEMOMM
offspring who frequently do halter and english pleasure. Look at all the
legion of merit champions who have succeeded at both. Don't forget the
Gainey and Varian bred horses who excel at many things!
Pat & Larry Smith
<cste...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Jane Kilberg wrote:
> >
> > snip
> >
> fees the rest of us are shelling out.
>
> Chris S.
Hi Chris,
I think halter horses also have to do performance. For some of them this
is showmanship, but many people also ride them in pleasure etc.
So while the rest of you are shelling out one more entry for a halter
class, halter owners are shelling out for at least showmanship, which few
bother with except for the performance requirement.
For an All Round (I guess what other breeds call their Champion Breed
Horse?) they have to have points in lots of classes, several performance
as well as halter.
Pat S
John T. Klausner
>
>If you look closely at the AQHA rule book, conformation is to be
>considered in the placement of some performance classes. For example,
>conditioning and conformation count a minimum of 20% of the total
>judging of western pleasure classes. I think that this rule is often
>forgotten since the horses don't take their saddles off.
>
>
>
>Marcy
>---
>Marcy Jackson
>mjj...@why.net
>Dallas, Texas USA
>
time in working multiple horses! Or multiple classes! Could you give
us all some tips on this?
SueK
John T. Klausner
Agreed - and look at the time frame! How about here and now? The
problem is one of gradual evolution.
SueK
Mary Rossano
>
>But that is, IMHO, mainly because performance people refuse to train
>and show for halter, and vice-versa. Huck may no longer be out there,
>but Varian horses are time and time again proving themselves to be
>halter AND performance animals, quite often in the same critter.
I do think that her breeding program produces exceptionally pretty
performance horses, some of whom compete successfully in halter. But I
would argue that until recently, her top priority was performance. Of
course, the halter futurities are changing that - the get of Desperado V
are haltering well, but I don't see him producing many EP horses.
>And I know I've mentioned it before, but *Padron foals regularly win in
>both halter AND performance (there is a marvelous Country Pleasure
>Driving son of his up here). *Aladdinn foals do the same. So while
>many folk may not be showing in both divisions, it doesn't mean their
>animals always couldn't compete in both.
*Aladdinn and *Padron produce a high percentage of western pleasure
horses, though. Actually, we have had quite a few *Aladdinns here at MSU
who *could* move, but didn't want to. They can be a little lacking in
"attitude"...
>(Although to be fair, if Ali Jamaal or Thee Desperado ever manage to >display themselves collected under saddle, I'll eat my hat. =
The bad >rears are out there, unfortunately)
And the Bey Shah horses? How many of those do you see under saddle?
>Not true. Halter type is an incredible variety of breeding, and many
>are fully capable of doing well in performance (and do). I'll say >something heretical here: I think most halter horses could com=
pete >sucessfully in a performance discipline if anyone bothered to ask them >to, but that many/most performance horses couldn't pla=
ce at halter to >save their lives, and I think that is a problem.
I agree with that point, but I think the performance classes are a better
measure of the horse's ability to work and stay sound. The legs on many
halter horses wouldn't withstand the rigors of performance competition.
I don't think the halter judging criteria places enough emphasis on
correct conformation, and places too much emphasis on type.
>I wish we still had the performance requirement for Nationals halter >classes (a stronger one, really) BUT IF you require that, the=
n >performance horses should be required to have a halter ribbon. That's >the only way to stop the breed from separating into perfo=
rmance/halter >lines.
But what about the geldings? There are some top performance horses who
are geldings - should they be required to show in "breeding classes"? (I
think gelding halter classes are kind of silly, given that we are
supposed to be evaluating breeding stock.)
>My whole life I thought horses were supposed to have hind legs with
>toes that point foreward. Toes that point out were always referred to
>as "pointing out", and it was a flaw. Is this different with Arabs?
When I was taught to evaluate a horse from the rear (and we used Arabs
for judging), we were looking for gaskins which come under the horse's
weight (pointing inward somewhat), parallel cannons, and toes which point
moderately outside the cannons. This type of hind leg can easily clear
the barrel at the stifle, and the hoof won't rotate when the horse
travels. The toes-straight-ahead standard is a holdover from the old
plumbline style of evaluation which led to the selection of horses that
waddled.
>I've taken many good up-close looks at Eternety. Hind toes do point
>straight ahead, but like I said I thought straight hind legs were a good
>thing. I don't know what you mean about his hind legs being built
>to move bow-legged. I've seen him move, many a time, and he moves
>totally normally (quite well, IMHO).
From the pictures I've seen, I would expect him to swing his hind leg
around and travel base-narrow, even if he doesn't rotate. Can he track
up?
Mary Rossano
John T. Klausner
writes:
>
>Jessica Snyder <jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
>><snip>
>I do think that her breeding program produces exceptionally pretty
>performance horses, some of whom compete successfully in halter. But
I
>would argue that until recently, her top priority was performance. Of
>course, the halter futurities are changing that - the get of Desperado
V
>are haltering well, but I don't see him producing many EP horses.
>
Are you saying that English Pleasure is the sole measure of the
athletic ability of the horse???
>>And I know I've mentioned it before, but *Padron foals regularly win
in
>>both halter AND performance (there is a marvelous Country Pleasure
>>Driving son of his up here). *Aladdinn foals do the same. So while
>>many folk may not be showing in both divisions, it doesn't mean their
>>animals always couldn't compete in both.
>*Aladdinn and *Padron produce a high percentage of western pleasure
>horses, though. Actually, we have had quite a few *Aladdinns here at
MSU
>who *could* move, but didn't want to. They can be a little lacking in
>"attitude"...
Again - Country Pleasure and English Pleasure - The only way to exhibit
athletic ability?? "attitude" meaning what? That lovely "moment away
from flight"? You consider this to be a "lack"?
>>(Although to be fair, if Ali Jamaal or Thee Desperado ever manage to
>display themselves collected under saddle, I'll eat my hat. =
>The bad >rears are out there, unfortunately)
>
>And the Bey Shah horses? How many of those do you see under saddle?
I've got one - 4 year old out of From: som...@ix.netcom.com(John T. Klausner )
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Arabs: Halter vs. performance WAS: Re: Arabians with hock and stifle problems
References: <4k3qk5$4...@news.usit.net> <4k943t$m...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <4ka164$h...@news.usit.net> <4kbb6m$e...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <4kbpi1$8...@news.doit.wisc.edu> <4klv1t$l...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In <4klv1t$l...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Mary Rossano <ross...@cvm.msu.edu>
writes:
>
>Jessica Snyder <jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
>><snip>
>I do think that her breeding program produces exceptionally pretty
>performance horses, some of whom compete successfully in halter. But
I
>would argue that until recently, her top priority was performance. Of
>course, the halter futurities are changing that - the get of Desperado
V
>are haltering well, but I don't see him producing many EP horses.
>
Are you saying that English Pleasure is the sole measure of the
athletic ability of the horse???
>>And I know I've mentioned it before, but *Padron foals regularly win
in
>>both halter AND performance (there is a marvelous Country Pleasure
>>Driving son of his up here). *Aladdinn foals do the same. So while
>>many folk may not be showing in both divisions, it doesn't mean their
>>animals always couldn't compete in both.
>*Aladdinn and *Padron produce a high percentage of western pleasure
>horses, though. Actually, we have had quite a few *Aladdinns here at
MSU
>who *could* move, but didn't want to. They can be a little lacking in
>"attitude"...
Again - Country Pleasure and English Pleasure - The only way to exhibit
athletic ability?? "attitude" meaning what? That lovely "moment away
from flight"? You consider this to be a "lack"?
>>(Although to be fair, if Ali Jamaal or Thee Desperado ever manage to
>display themselves collected under saddle, I'll eat my hat. =
>The bad >rears are out there, unfortunately)
>
>And the Bey Shah horses? How many of those do you see under saddle?
I've got one - 4 year old out of ere are some top performance horses
who
>are geldings - should they be required to show in "breeding classes"?
(I
>think gelding halter classes are kind of silly, given that we are
>supposed to be evaluating breeding stock.)
Geldings are the premier evaluation of your breeding stock! You have
breeding stock to produce performance horses. The quality of your
geldings is a _very_ good measure of the standard of horses your
breeding program produces! I repeat - halter classes are showmanship,
not conformation classes. Use an objective standard, not placing in a
showmanship class to measure the conformation of the produce of your
breeding classes!
>>snip<<
>
>Mary Rossano
SueK
Pat & Larry Smith
> If you look closely at the AQHA rule book, conformation is to be
> considered in the placement of some performance classes. For example,
> conditioning and conformation count a minimum of 20% of the total
> judging of western pleasure classes. I think that this rule is often
> forgotten since the horses don't take their saddles off.
>
>
>
> Marcy
> ---
Hi Marcy,
Maybe you are looking at an old rule book, the following is from the
current AQHA official handbook of rules and regulations.
To earn title of "All Round" in Open, Amateur, Youth, Pg. 79-81
Horse has to place in top nine of required events, in three or more
categories, then award goes to high point horse.
Halter is by itself in Category I.
There are 6 other categories, all with several performance events.
Showmanship at halter is in category 7, and is considered a performance
class. Even using showmanship as a performance event, the horse would have
to be in one other performance class, and place in the top 9, and
accumulate enough points to take the award.
To earn AQHA Supreme Champion, Pg 83-84
Horse has to
1. Race and have 2 official speed index ratings of 90 or more (AAA)
2. Earn at least 40 pts in halter & performance at five or more approved
shows under five or more judges.
A. Min of 15 pts at halter, with a min of 8 of these pts after horse is two.
B. 20 pts must be in performance or racing. 8 of these 20, must be in
one or more of the following events.
Reining, working cow horse, western pleasure, western riding, jumping,
green working hunter, working hunter, hunter hack, or hunter under saddle.
8 of the 20 must be in one or more of the following categories,
calf roping, dally team roping (heading or heeling) or cutting
So--16 of those 40 pts must have been in some "real" performance classes.
Hope this clarifies the AQHA standards.
Pat S
Pat & Larry Smith
palr...@micron.net (Pat & Larry Smith) wrote:
> In article <4kjhic$m...@what.why.net>, mjj...@why.net (Marcy Jackson) wrote:
>
>
> > If you look closely at the AQHA rule book, conformation is to be
> > considered in the placement of some performance classes. For example,
> > conditioning and conformation count a minimum of 20% of the total
> > judging of western pleasure classes. I think that this rule is often
> > forgotten since the horses don't take their saddles off.
> >
> >
> >
> > Marcy
> > ---
> Hi Marcy,
Please disregard, and forgive my previous post. Obviously my head was
tucked between my legs when I read yours. Am I embarrassed. I just read it
again, and realized I headed off on a completely different subject that
what you were saying.
Talk about jumping to conclusions, and being totally wrong, I certainly was.
Sorry.
A good lesson in read completely and thoroughly before responding, as
others have suggested on this group.
Pat S, sitting here with egg on my red face.
Mary Rossano
>
>Are you saying that English Pleasure is the sole measure of the
>athletic ability of the horse???
Not the sole measure, although I have a personal preference for
high-going horses. I respect a horse that can race, do dressage or
hunter pleasure, or stock events well - but I don't see much athletic
ability on display in Western Pleasure classes. WP reminds me of the
"slow races" they have at the motorcycle rallies. The object is for the
rider of the bike to go as slowly as possible, while keeping his/her feet
on the footpegs. The rider who can go the slowest without tipping over
wins. To compete successfully in EP, a horse needs power, a free
shoulder and a long, high-set neck; these traits are highly desirable,
IMO.
>Again - Country Pleasure and English Pleasure - The only way to exhibit
>athletic ability?? "attitude" meaning what? That lovely "moment away
>from flight"? You consider this to be a "lack"?
The *Aladdinns I have known usually lack "guts", or alternatively, would
rather fight than go forward. There are exceptions of course, like
Allience, but let's not forget his dam's contribution to the endproduct.
Considering all the outstanding mares *Aladdinn bred, why has he produced
so many WP horses? And then there are those forelegs he throws... Grrr!
>>And the Bey Shah horses? How many of those do you see under saddle?
>
>I've got one - 4 year old out of ere are some top performance horses
There must be some who are being ridden, but that bloodline dominates
*halter*. Can you think of any Bey Shah get who are competing at the
national level in performance (besides NV Pingo, AOTR WP horse)?
And again, forelegs come to mind...
>Geldings are the premier evaluation of your breeding stock! You have
>breeding stock to produce performance horses. The quality of your
>geldings is a _very_ good measure of the standard of horses your
>breeding program produces! I repeat - halter classes are showmanship,
>not conformation classes. Use an objective standard, not placing in a
>showmanship class to measure the conformation of the produce of your
>breeding classes!
But geldings are horses who have been culled from the breeding
population! The breeding classes are supposed to used to identify
outstanding breeding stock for the next generation. Why should a gelding
who is earning his keep as a performance horse have to prove himself
among the gingered, whip-shy crowd?
If the judging criteria were changed, as you suggested, I would see more
merit in evaluating the conformation of geldings in a get-of-sire or dam
class - but what I see in gelding halter classes looks pretty much the
same as the stuff in all the other halter classes. With the advent of
the high-dollar futurities, this trend has grown worse, IMO. Campaigning
a halter gelding has become a finacially viable option.
Actually, I think we agree that the current halter trends are rewarding
the trainers with the typiest, most "charismatic" horses, at the expense
of athleticism and correct conformation.
Mary Rossano
John T. Klausner
writes:
>> I respect a horse that can race, do dressage or
>hunter pleasure, or stock events well - but I don't see much athletic
>ability on display in Western Pleasure classes. WP reminds me of the
>"slow races" they have at the motorcycle rallies. The object is for
the rider of the bike to go as slowly as possible, while keeping
his/her feet on the footpegs. The rider who can go the slowest without
tipping over wins.
I understand this - I have often felt if the West had to be won on
Western Pleasure horses, we'd still be settling Colorado! But like the
Halter classes, this is the fault of the system, not necessarily of the
horse. It certainly provides a display case for lower ability riders,
even if the horse is capable of more! OTOH,the EP horse is often not a
pleasure to ride outside the show ring.
To compete successfully in EP, a horse needs power, a free
>shoulder and a long, high-set neck; these traits are highly desirable,
IMO.
>
And to be a "Pleasure" needs an attitude adjustment! These need to be
hot horses, and therefore severely limit the number of riders suitable
for using them!
<snip>
>The *Aladdinns I have known usually lack "guts", or alternatively,
would rather fight than go forward. There are exceptions of course,
like Allience, but let's not forget his dam's contribution to the end
product.Consid
ering all the outstanding mares *Aladdinn bred, why has he produced so
many WP horFrom: som...@ix.netcom.com(John T. Klausner )
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Arabs: Halter vs. performance WAS: Re: Arabians with hock and stifle problems
References: <4k3qk5$4...@news.usit.net> <4k943t$m...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <4ka164$h...@news.usit.net> <4kbb6m$e...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <4kbpi1$8...@news.doit.wisc.edu> <4klv1t$l...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <4km4ek$8...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4kr97s$1f...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In <4kr97s$1f...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Mary Rossano <ross...@cvm.msu.edu>
writes:
>
>som...@ix.netcom.com(John T. Klausner ) wrote:
<snip> Mary said:
>> I respect a horse that can race, do dressage or
>hunter pleasure, or stock events well - but I don't see much athletic
>ability on display in Western Pleasure classes. WP reminds me of the
>"slow races" they have at the motorcycle rallies. The object is for
the rider of the bike to go as slowly as possible, while keeping
his/her feet on the footpegs. The rider who can go the slowest without
tipping over wins.
I understand this - I have often felt if the West had to be won on
Western Pleasure horses, we'd still be settling Colorado! But like the
Halter classes, this is the fault of the system, not necessarily of the
horse. It certainly provides a display case for lower ability riders,
even if the horse is capable of more! OTOH,the EP horse is often not a
pleasure to ride outside the show ring.
To compete successfully in EP, a horse needs power, a free
>shoulder and a long, high-set neck; these traits are highly desirable,
IMO.
>
And to be a "Pleasure" needs an attitude adjustment! These need to be
hot horses, and therefore severely limit the number of riders suitable
for using them!
<snip>
>The *Aladdinns I have known usually lack "guts", or alternatively,
would rather fight than go forward. There are exceptions of course,
like Allience, but let's not forget his dam's contribution to the end
product.Consid
ering all the outstanding mares *Aladdinn bred, why has he produced so
many WP horhave too many _good_
stallions, and that stallions in many cases should be left entire until
they can prove or disprove their performance ability as opposed to
"just" conformation, nevertheless, I feel we should not think of
geldings as "culls" but rather that stallions should be of exceptional
quality. As many say - "he'd make a good stallion. He'll make a
_great_ gelding!" We need to encourage that attitude.
> The breeding classes are supposed to used to identify
outstanding breeding stock for the next generation. Why should a
gelding who is earning his keep as a performance horse have to prove
himself among the gingered, whip-shy crowd?
Indeed. Why should any horse - breeding or not!
>If the judging criteria were changed, as you suggested, I would see
more merit in evaluating the conformation of geldings in a get-of-sire
or dam class - but what I see in gelding halter classes looks pretty
much the same as the stuff in all the other halter classes. With the
advent of the high-dollar futurities, this trend has grown worse, IMO.
Campaigning a halter gelding has become a finacially viable option.
AHA! Is this bad? If you agree with many that there are too many
stallions, showing geldings has to become a viable option.
>Actually, I think we agree that the current halter trends are
rewarding the trainers with the typiest, most "charismatic" horses, at
the expense of athleticism and correct conformation.
Yes, we probably do agree more than disagree - but the problem lies
with the definition of the halter horse, I think. We often think of it
as a conformation class, which it is not. At least not today. If we
could introduce a conformation class and control its "destiny", maybe
we can recombine conformation and halter and let showmanship take care
of itself!
>Mary Rossano
SueK
Mary Rossano
>
>I understand this - I have often felt if the West had to be won on
>Western Pleasure horses, we'd still be settling Colorado!
ROTFL! Nice to bashing disciplines instead of breeds, eh? (I'm not a
huntseat or a dressage rider, so I'm out of the loop on the other
thread...)
>But like the Halter classes, this is the fault of the system, not >necessarily of the horse. It certainly provides a display case =
for >lower ability riders, even if the horse is capable of more!
Yeah, but a lot of horses end up in WP because they don't move out and/or
the neck is too short or is on too low. If the neck isn't right for EP
but the horse can move powerfully, the horse is still suitable for HP,
dressage, stock or racing.
>OTOH,the EP horse is often not a pleasure to ride outside the show ring.
Depends on what you do for fun, I guess... Really though, a friend of
mine worked at Shea stables for a while, and raved about the steady
temperments of HBB and Bey Apertif (sp?). And when you think about it,
those EP critters often end up in costume classes - now those are
tolerant beasts!
>And to be a "Pleasure" needs an attitude adjustment! These need to be
>hot horses, and therefore severely limit the number of riders suitable
>for using them!
The *good* ones go forward with lots of power while remaining steady.
>I feel we should not think of geldings as "culls" but rather that >stallions should be of exceptional quality. As many say - "he'd=
make a >good stallion. He'll make a _great_ gelding!" We need to encourage >that attitude.
But if a horse has been castrated, he has been removed from the breeding
population. He may be a great gelding, but he's not *breeding stock*.
That fits my definition of culling. That's why I think gelding halter is
silly, unless it is in the context of a get-of-sire or dam class.
>>Campaigning a halter gelding has become a finacially viable option.
>
>AHA! Is this bad? If you agree with many that there are too many
>stallions, showing geldings has to become a viable option.
I think it is leading to the practice of keeping geldings around who
can't *do* anything but halter. I am totally in favor of the Gelding
Incentive for performance events, but halter??
>Yes, we probably do agree more than disagree - but the problem lies
>with the definition of the halter horse, I think. We often think of it
>as a conformation class, which it is not. At least not today. If we
>could introduce a conformation class and control its "destiny", maybe
>we can recombine conformation and halter and let showmanship take care
>of itself!
I guess the biggest complaint I have with Arabian Halter is that it
favors conformation which doesn't perform well (which is the basis of my
original comments on bad hind ends). If we all know that a dead-level
topline is undesirable for performance, why do we train our horses to
pose as if they were level? What's the point in it? I favor the new
judging in the sweepstakes classes which requires a score for legs, but
why has structural correctness been subordinate to type for so long?
(Especially considering the variety of types within the breed.) Do you
think the new European style of judging will improve the breed?
Mary Rossano
John T. Klausner
I apologize for the messy 6K post - thought I had managed to overcome
the "disconnect" beast, but obviously there are still a few wrinkles I
need to iron out! Got most of it though!
SueK
Jessica Snyder
>that's a requirement that should have been strengthened, not dropped,
>in my opinion - and I can go along with a requirement that performance
>horses be shown in halter IF those classes are conformation classes,
>not showmanship classes, which is what Halter has become.
Easy to say, hard to prove. From what I can tell, for the *most*
part, the best horses win at halter. Now granted, if you bring in
your western horse, and you just stand there, you will probably
not get looked at because your horse will look dumpy and unimpressive.
Halter classes ARE conformation classes... if your horse has rotten
conformation, they won't do well in halter no matter how well they
are shown.
Thik of halter as another kind of performance... you need your horse
to show it's conformation at it's best advantage, and you teach it
to do that. Some people can teach that better than others, but some
people train for performance events better than others do too...
it's all part of the game.
> I'm not sure
>what purpose would be served by requiring a performance horse to show
>in a conformation class except as a qualifying requirement, but perhaps
>there would be some purpose.
The purpose would be to help stop our breed diverging into "halter"
and "performance" types. You can have an incredible performance
horse, but if I can't tell it's an Arab at 100 yards, it sure as
heck shouldn't be bred. What's the point of having a pure breed
if you totally lose breed type?
(snip)
>If the Halter classes produce a
>horse that cannot perform, then there is a real dichotomy within the
>breed. That a performance horse cannot compete in a halter class does
>not seem to me to be a problem, since the requirements of the halter
>class today are not only for "perfect" conformation (theoretically) but
>personality, pretty, and pizazz.
All of which are part of Arabian "type", and should be taken into
account when judging an Arabian. If a performance horse is so non-typey
that they can't even get a ribbon in a basic "A" halter class, they
shouldn't be getting shown at Nationals as one of the best the breed
has to offer. Same with halter horses... if they can't even place
in a basic performance class, they don't deserve to be touted as
the "best" by being shown at Nationals.
Horses with impeccable conformation may still completely lack Arabian
type. A good horse is a good horse, you don't need type for that.
That is why the Arabian halter standard places TYPE as the #1
priority on which the horses are judged.
> The horse can be a good working horse but not have these.
True. And so they can win all they want at the Regional level,
but shouldn't go to Nationals.
> Maybe instead of requiring a performance horse to
>be a winner - or placer - in a halter class, there should be a minimum
>score of some kind. A standard against which all individuals could be
>measured rather than a straight competition. After all, the individual
>that places first in one show might stand last in a different group of
>horses. The horse is no different, just the competition.
Exactly. That's what showing is all about... proving that, against
a variety of competition, your animal consistently comes out on top
will be a strong statement to the quality of that animal. If a
performance horse can't win a few halter ribbons, they simply aren't
the best of the best, and shouldn't go to Nationals. That's all
I'm saying.
Jessica
Oh, but I *really* like the idea of classes in which the horses
perform, and are then stripped and judged at halter. That would
be a great thing to implement in our shows, and would encourage
those of us who want "all around" horses to go out and show them!
------------------------------------------------------------
jrsn...@students.wisc.edu in Madison, WI and the crew:
Jessica Snyder
Agreed, let's look at the here and now: Aladdin, Huckleberry Bey,
Desperado V, Khemosabi (and tons of his sons), Padron, etc. are all
big name horses who (except Huck, who died recently) are currently
siring winners in performance AND halter. Heck, the winner of the
Tevis Cup a few years ago was a Bey Shah son! I firmly believe that
we don't have as many cross winners mainly because not as many
people are willing to show their horse in cross disciplines.
Jessica
Jessica Snyder
>Jessica Snyder <jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>But that is, IMHO, mainly because performance people refuse to train
>>and show for halter, and vice-versa. Huck may no longer be out there,
>>but Varian horses are time and time again proving themselves to be
>>halter AND performance animals, quite often in the same critter.
>
>performance horses, some of whom compete successfully in halter. But I
>would argue that until recently, her top priority was performance. Of
>course, the halter futurities are changing that - the get of Desperado V
>are haltering well, but I don't see him producing many EP horses.
No, the Desperado foals are western-type horses. Many, many Huck foals
did well in halter, and many did well in performance. We'll see where
she goes with her breeding program now that Huck is gone.
>>And I know I've mentioned it before, but *Padron foals regularly win in
>>both halter AND performance (there is a marvelous Country Pleasure
>>Driving son of his up here). *Aladdinn foals do the same. So while
>>many folk may not be showing in both divisions, it doesn't mean their
>>animals always couldn't compete in both.
>
>*Aladdinn and *Padron produce a high percentage of western pleasure
>horses, though.
I don't know about *Aladdinn, but *Padron regularly produces horses
that aren't easily placed as to performance "type". We've had many
professional trainers look at my *Padron daughter, asking what she
would be good at, and they all say the same thing: pretty much anything
except English Pleasure/Park. I've seen *Padron horses in working
stock, Country english, Western, Driving, etc. Oh, and at halter :)
> Actually, we have had quite a few *Aladdinns here at MSU
>who *could* move, but didn't want to. They can be a little lacking in
>"attitude"...
Heh. Well, the *Padron horses don't have that problem, unfortunately... :0
>And the Bey Shah horses? How many of those do you see under saddle?
Not many, and I've heard quite a few reasons for it. I won't use Bey Shah
in my program, but to be fair, there is a Tevis Cup winner sired by him,
and a couple of working western horses. I've never known anyone who
bothered to try and ride their Bey Shah horses, so I don't know if they
can't be ridden, or if the people who own them just don't bother.
>I agree with that point, but I think the performance classes are a better
>measure of the horse's ability to work and stay sound. The legs on many
>halter horses wouldn't withstand the rigors of performance competition.
How do you know that unless you ride them? I've seen Tevis winners, and
many performance horses, with serious leg faults who stay perfectly
sound. Not that they should be accepted in the halter ring, and I agree
we have a problem, but leg flaws don't mean the horse will break down.
Depends on the flaw, and the horse, and the performance they're asked to
do.
>I don't think the halter judging criteria places enough emphasis on
>correct conformation, and places too much emphasis on type.
See my other post for my opinions on conformation vs. type in the halter
ring.
>But what about the geldings? There are some top performance horses who
>are geldings - should they be required to show in "breeding classes"? (I
>think gelding halter classes are kind of silly, given that we are
>supposed to be evaluating breeding stock.)
Sez who? I think halter is there to see which lines of horses are
producing which types of animals, and you can then base your breeding
desicions accordingly. Dog folk don't show the neutered animals, and
I think it is a big mistake for many reasons, but the main one is
that you only get a slanted view of what a line is producing, because
the ones that deserved to be neutered are left at home.
>When I was taught to evaluate a horse from the rear (and we used Arabs
>for judging), we were looking for gaskins which come under the horse's
>weight (pointing inward somewhat), parallel cannons, and toes which point
>moderately outside the cannons. This type of hind leg can easily clear
>the barrel at the stifle, and the hoof won't rotate when the horse
>travels. The toes-straight-ahead standard is a holdover from the old
>plumbline style of evaluation which led to the selection of horses that
>waddled.
Apparently you and I were trained rather differently.
>From the pictures I've seen, I would expect him to swing his hind leg
>around and travel base-narrow, even if he doesn't rotate. Can he track
>up?
Forgive my ignorance, but define track up? He doesn't travel narrow,
I know that. We had a half-brother of his (by the same stallion) who
also had straight hind legs with toes that point foreward, and he traveled
completely straight (no waddling, swinging, etc). And *if* track up
means that the hind legs land in or beyond the imprint of the foreleg,
he regularly passed his foreleg mark by inches. I'd have to double
check on Eternety, I wasn't looking for that when I saw him. (And I
was consistently appalled by his fetlocks :)
HORSEMAN2
=Oh, but I *really* like the idea of classes in which the horses
=perform, and are then stripped and judged at halter. That would
=be a great thing to implement in our shows, and would encourage
=those of us who want "all around" horses to go out and show them!
The Morgan (and I think American Saddlebred) class A shows do just that.
At the end of the performance portion of the class a handler runs out to
assist the rider in removing the saddle so that the horse's conformation
can be judged along with the performance. It can be a real eye-opener!
Dick Turner
Hors...@aol.com
Dick Turner
Hors...@aol.com
John T. Klausner
writes:
>Much omitted for the sake of brevity<
>Yeah, but a lot of horses end up in WP because they don't move out
If "don't" equates to "can't" then I may agree, although there may
still be a place for this horse. There are many who want to ride but
don't have a lot of skill. If these horses have quiet dispositions,
they might trul
y make good pleasure horses. I know you can come back with this is
certainly less than ideal, but there _are_ people who _need_
nonathletic horses. Those dedicated horsemen on this board may feel
these people shouldn't
even own horses, and maybe we shouldn't be producing the kind of
horses they need, but there may be a place for them. Certainly we
shouldn't be _trying_ to produce them!
>those EP critters often end up in costume classes - now those are
>tolerant beasts!
Agreed! I can understand how you can get the horse to accept wearing
all those drapes, but I've never understood how you get them used to
seeing the other horses in the class!! The first time your enter a
show with your
Native Costume horse sure must be exciting! But "Native Costume" -
Really!!!!! My husband was in Saudi for a year and has done a lot of
traveling in the Mid -
East - Those people would be truly stunned at what we call "Native"!!
O well!
>>And to be a "Pleasure" needs an attitude adjustment! These need to
be
>>hot horses, and therefore severely limit the number of riders
suitable
>>From: som...@ix.netcom.com(John T. Klausner )
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Arabs: Halter vs. performance WAS: Re: Arabians with hock and stifle problems
References: <4k3qk5$4...@news.usit.net> <4k943t$m...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <4ka164$h...@news.usit.net> <4kbb6m$e...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <4kbpi1$8...@news.doit.wisc.edu> <4klv1t$l...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <4km4ek$8...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4kr97s$1f...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <4kruan$5...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4ktqrm$j...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In <4ktqrm$j...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Mary Rossano <ross...@cvm.msu.edu>
writes:
>Much omitted for the sake of brevity<
>Yeah, but a lot of horses end up in WP because they don't move out
If "don't" equates to "can't" then I may agree, although there may
still be a place for this horse. There are many who want to ride but
don't have a lot of skill. If these horses have quiet dispositions,
they might trul
y make good pleasure horses. I know you can come back with this is
certainly less than ideal, but there _are_ people who _need_
nonathletic horses. Those dedicated horsemen on this board may feel
these people shouldn't
even own horses, and maybe we shouldn't be producing the kind of
horses they need, but there may be a place for them. Certainly we
shouldn't be _trying_ to produce them!
>those EP critters often end up in costume classes - now those are
>tolerant beasts!
Agreed! I can understand how you can get the horse to accept wearing
all those drapes, but I've never understood how you get them used to
seeing the other horses in the class!! The first time your enter a
show with your
Native Costume horse sure must be exciting! But "Native Costume" -
Really!!!!! My husband was in Saudi for a year and has done a lot of
traveling in the Mid -
East - Those people would be truly stunned at what we call "Native"!!
O well!
>>And to be a "Pleasure" needs an attitude adjustment! These need to
be
>>hot horses, and therefore severely limit the number of riders
suitable
>>
>topline is undesirable for performance, why do we train our horses to
>pose as if they were level? What's the point in it? I favor the new
>judging in the sweepstakes classes which requires a score for legs,
but
>why has structural correctness been subordinate to type for so long?
We're in agreement here.
Do you think the new European style of judging will improve the
breed?
I think I think so - explain the new European system if you would be so
kind, and let's start a new thread!
>Mary Rossano
SueK
Jim & Laura Behning
>Mary Rossano <ross...@cvm.msu.edu> wrote:
>>When I was taught to evaluate a horse from the rear (and we used Arabs
>>for judging), we were looking for gaskins which come under the horse's
>>weight (pointing inward somewhat), parallel cannons, and toes which point
>>moderately outside the cannons. This type of hind leg can easily clear
>>the barrel at the stifle, and the hoof won't rotate when the horse
>>travels. The toes-straight-ahead standard is a holdover from the old
>>plumbline style of evaluation which led to the selection of horses that
>>waddled.
>Apparently you and I were trained rather differently.
Read Deb Bennett's PRINCIPLES OF CONFORMATION ANALYSIS (I believe
there's three volumes). Her writings in these books and in EQUUS are
where I first saw this same thing that Mary mentions touted as
indicative of a "more athletic" animal. In my own anecodotal
experiences it appears to be true.
Laura Behning
mor...@mindspring.com
Jim & Laura Behning
>=Jessica
Only in Championship classes, Dick. The AHSA/AMHA Morgan Championship
classes are judged 60% type and conformation, 40% performance.
Laura Behning
mor...@mindspring.com
C.M.Newell
>Oh, but I *really* like the idea of classes in which the horses
>perform, and are then stripped and judged at halter. That would
>be a great thing to implement in our shows, and would encourage
>those of us who want "all around" horses to go out and show them!
They used to do this in the show hack championship, but for some
reason, they eliminated it. (at least in the US; I don't know about
Canada)
--CMNewell
"If truth is impossible, so is the lie
There's no in-between, you can't swim, you can't fly
At the uttermost link at the end of our chain
Only the Strange remain"--R.Hunter
Stethmir
(HORSEMAN2) writes:
>=Jessica
>
>=Oh, but I *really* like the idea of classes in which the horses
>=perform, and are then stripped and judged at halter. That would
>=be a great thing to implement in our shows, and would encourage
>=those of us who want "all around" horses to go out and show them!
>
>The Morgan (and I think American Saddlebred) class A shows do just that.
>At the end of the performance portion of the class a handler runs out to
>assist the rider in removing the saddle so that the horse's conformation
>can be judged along with the performance. It can be a real eye-opener!
>
>Dick Turner
>Hors...@aol.com
>Dick Turner
>Hors...@aol.com
>
>
Really think most of the using Arabs look good stripped? The requirement
was added and as quickly dropped in Show Hack classes b/c the (typically
older) horses used there looked . . . used. It was a silly, time
consuming rule. One can see their legs, type and function w/out stripping
at any rate.
Saddlebred and Morgan shows don't strip in all classes, BTW.
Sylvia Glover
Stethmr Arabians
Stethmir
som...@ix.netcom.com(John T. Klausner ) writes:
>If "don't" equates to "can't" then I may agree, although there may
>still be a place for this horse.
A quiet or honest horse w/ motion still shows motion; look to the Country
English horses and equitation horses. The "he doesn't want to" statement
by owners is usually an explanation why their horse bred for English
Pleasure is showing Western.
Sylvia Glover
Stethmir Arabians
Phetsy Calderon
> >perform, and are then stripped and judged at halter. That would
> >be a great thing to implement in our shows, and would encourage
> >those of us who want "all around" horses to go out and show them!
>
> reason, they eliminated it. (at least in the US; I don't know about
> Canada)
Well, slightly different discipline, but at one of my favorite shows,
the San Benito County Horse Show and Rodeo, the working cow horses go
out, run their patterns, work cows, go into the side arena, and are
immediately stripped and judged for "suitability for stock work."
They take their working horses serously on that section of California
Coast. These are all Open classes, too.
BTW, saw a really cute little pinto win the suitability section one year,
and he did have the most appropriate conformation in the class. The judges
seem to have no problem looking at sweaty horses who are breathing hard,
either.
--
Phetsy Calderon
phe...@usa.pipeline.com
========================================
Such an educated feller, his thoughts just come in herds
--The Zebra Dun
Jessica Snyder
>>perform, and are then stripped and judged at halter. That would
>>be a great thing to implement in our shows, and would encourage
>>those of us who want "all around" horses to go out and show them!
>
>reason, they eliminated it. (at least in the US; I don't know about
>Canada)
Bummer. Do you think if enough of us got together and yelled real
loud for the National Championships to hold such a class, that they
would listen and insall one?
Jessica (skeptical, but what the hell)
Jessica Snyder
>Jessica Snyder <jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>Apparently you and I were trained rather differently.
>
>there's three volumes). Her writings in these books and in EQUUS are
>where I first saw this same thing that Mary mentions touted as
>indicative of a "more athletic" animal. In my own anecodotal
>experiences it appears to be true.
Thanks, Laura. Hell, I'm always willing to learn something new!
I'll have to start examining hind legs for straightness, and compare
them to performance.
Jessica
------------------------------------------------------------
jrsn...@students.wisc.edu in Madison, WI and the crew:
Kosh (Touchstone零 Harbinger) the Belgian Tervuren pup,
Liza (Padron零 Starlight) the Arabian mommy mare,
Mary Rossano
What about the differences in type within the breed? Whose type would be
the standard? The definition of type has evolved over time.
If we placed too much emphasis on the dished head, we might really go
backwards in terms of performance. I for one, wouldn't trade a
dish-faced, short, triangular-necked critter for a straight-faced,
stretchy, swan-necked trotting fiend. I want a horse who is thrilling to
*ride*.
I don't see why a plain, but athletic gelding shouldn't be allowed to go
the Nationals to compete in performance. That would be extremely unfair
to the owner and trainer of the horse. Imagine owning a good horse who
is capable of winning, but being excluded because it didn't meet
someone's *subjective* standard for type.
Mary Rossano
Jessica Snyder
>breed?
>
>I think I think so - explain the new European system if you would be so
>kind, and let's start a new thread!
>
>>Mary Rossano
>
>SueK
>
I'm not Mary, but new thread is duly started. I agree that the
European system would improve the judging here. At least you'll
know *why* the judge placed the horses where they did, and the
scores are public, so politics would be more difficult!
As I understand the system, each horse gets a score from one
to ten on various aspects, such as head/neck, legs, body, substance,
type, etc. The scores are added (are they weighted, does anyone
know?) and the highest scoring horse wins. That way, a horse with
a 10 on type, a 9 on head/neck, but a 3 on legs will not beat
a horse with a 8 on type, a 7 on head/neck, and a 10 on legs.
For example.
Can someone clarify if I have things right? And is there anyone
here who thinks this would *not* improve the judging here?
Mary Rossano
>Jessica Snyder <jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>Apparently you and I were trained rather differently.
>
>there's three volumes). Her writings in these books and in EQUUS are
>where I first saw this same thing that Mary mentions touted as
>indicative of a "more athletic" animal. In my own anecodotal
>experiences it appears to be true.
When I took judging here at MSU (just a class, I'm not a judge), they
drilled us on structure which performs well so that we could spot a good
horse "in his work clothes", and be able to buy intelligently.
Unfortunately, when the judging team would travel to competitions at
breed shows they were told "Remember all that stuff about structure we
told you? Forget that, place 'em on type." Our students must have
listened well this year, they placed 1st in judging at the Arab
Nationals...
Anyhow, I think we need to get away from an ill-conceived standard of
evaluation which looks for horses who are built like funiture - square,
with hind legs out at the corners. This a good strong structure for
stationary objects, but horses are dynamic; different rules apply. The
trouble is, the human eye *likes* straight lines and square corners, and
this is what we find esthetically pleasing, I think.
What has been your experience with Morgans, Laura? I worked at a Morgan
barn which had quite a few waddlers, but they were of the newer style.
Mary Rossano
Deborah Stevenson
writes:
>I'm not Mary, but new thread is duly started. I agree that the
>European system would improve the judging here. At least you'll
>know *why* the judge placed the horses where they did, and the
>scores are public, so politics would be more difficult!
(snip of description of numbers breakdown)
This sounds *most* interesting. How are the scores made public? Are we
talking announcing point score along with placings and then posting
and/or publishing the components scoring? This might also help
distinguish between classes where Dobbin got a blue but everybody stank,
and Kipper got fourth but was almost even with first in tough company.
Not that that's necessary, but it would sure be intriguing.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Losing points in Champaign, IL, USA
Corey Lee Bishop
: mor...@atl.mindspring.com (Jim & Laura Behning) wrote:
: >Jessica Snyder <jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
: >
: >Read Deb Bennett's PRINCIPLES OF CONFORMATION ANALYSIS (I believe
: >there's three volumes). Her writings in these books and in EQUUS are
: >where I first saw this same thing that Mary mentions touted as
: >indicative of a "more athletic" animal. In my own anecodotal
: >experiences it appears to be true.
: Thanks, Laura. Hell, I'm always willing to learn something new!
: I'll have to start examining hind legs for straightness, and compare
: them to performance.
I've always had the hardest time judging a horse's hind legs, I know what
I LIKE, I just can't pin-point why. Luckily I'm spending a week at
Adult Horse Camp in June, will be following Mike McDaniels around begging
for more training in that area. I won't ever be judging a horse show, but
I DO prefer to know what I should look for.
My latest acquisition, an AM Beau Triomphe daughter, has a fantastic front,
I'm not totally happy with her rear end. But I'm breeding her to a
stallion with a hip to die for, so I am keeping my fingers crossed....
: Jessica
: ------------------------------------------------------------
: jrsn...@students.wisc.edu in Madison, WI and the crew:
: Kosh (Touchstonešs Harbinger) the Belgian Tervuren pup,
: Liza (Padronšs Starlight) the Arabian mommy mare,
: Nikki (Fathead), Pixel (Fuzzhead) and Voodoo (Blerthead),
: Demon Cats from Hell,
: and Keith, the wonderful husband who puts up with all of us.
: ------------------------------------------------------------
Sue and the Chestnut mares (with now one added Bay)
--
"Inconceivable!"
"You keep using that word. I don' think it means
what you think it means." _The Princess Bride_
"Never underestimate the power of stupidity." Robert Heinlein
Corey Lee Bishop
: In <4l3alm$27...@news.doit.wisc.edu> Jessica Snyder <jrsn...@students.wisc.edu>
: writes:
The only time I saw it done was a Futurity class for Yearling fillies
at the 94 Nationals. Each filly came in separately, was judged by a
team of judges and the scores displayed like they do on the Olympics,
by numbers on held up cards. They'd go out and look at the filly and
judge her on type, come back, display the cards, go back out and judge
her on conformation, come back, display the cards, judge her on legs,
etc, judge her on gait, etc. Took a very long time, but you KNEW they
had the right horse when they were done!
Sue
Corey Lee Bishop
: >breed?
: >
: >I think I think so - explain the new European system if you would be so
: >kind, and let's start a new thread!
: >
: >>Mary Rossano
: >
: >SueK
: I'm not Mary, but new thread is duly started. I agree that the
: European system would improve the judging here. At least you'll
: know *why* the judge placed the horses where they did, and the
: scores are public, so politics would be more difficult!
: As I understand the system, each horse gets a score from one
: to ten on various aspects, such as head/neck, legs, body, substance,
: type, etc. The scores are added (are they weighted, does anyone
: know?) and the highest scoring horse wins. That way, a horse with
: a 10 on type, a 9 on head/neck, but a 3 on legs will not beat
: a horse with a 8 on type, a 7 on head/neck, and a 10 on legs.
: For example.
: Can someone clarify if I have things right? And is there anyone
: here who thinks this would *not* improve the judging here?
I'm not sure what all the division are (I've only seen it done once and
that was two years ago) but that's sorta the way it's done. Gait is one
of the things the horses are judged on, I do remember that. The only
problem is, it takes a LONG time! The class I saw was of yearlings, took
ages since each horse had to come in separately. Actually I liked it,
I thought it gave a true picture of each horse and why the judges picked
them on various items.
: Jessica
: ------------------------------------------------------------
: jrsn...@students.wisc.edu in Madison, WI and the crew:
: Kosh (Touchstonešs Harbinger) the Belgian Tervuren pup,
: Liza (Padronšs Starlight) the Arabian mommy mare,
: Nikki (Fathead), Pixel (Fuzzhead) and Voodoo (Blerthead),
: Demon Cats from Hell,
: and Keith, the wonderful husband who puts up with all of us.
: ------------------------------------------------------------
Jessica Snyder
>Re: the value of type:
>
>What about the differences in type within the breed? Whose type would be
>the standard? The definition of type has evolved over time.
Yet the arched neck, high tail carriage, large eyes, small ears,
floating gait (up and down or hunter, they all float), refined dry/dishy
head are in all types of Arabs. Very few purebreds are missing *all*
those hallmarks of type. Every variety in the breed carries most of them.
>If we placed too much emphasis on the dished head, we might really go
>backwards in terms of performance. I for one, wouldn't trade a
>dish-faced, short, triangular-necked critter for a straight-faced,
>stretchy, swan-necked trotting fiend. I want a horse who is thrilling to
>*ride*.
Well, my thrill happens to be loping through the countryside, but that
isn't really the point... the point is that all the various items that
make an Arab and Arab fall within "type", and to ignore it is to not
care if they look like their breed any more. I, personally, prefer the
dished face, moderate neck, and big cicular powerful trot of my mare
to any plain-headed hackney wanna-be English horse (not that all are,
but some are). You do NOT have to sacrifice type for performance ability.
>I don't see why a plain, but athletic gelding shouldn't be allowed to go
>the Nationals to compete in performance. That would be extremely unfair
>to the owner and trainer of the horse. Imagine owning a good horse who
>is capable of winning, but being excluded because it didn't meet
>someone's *subjective* standard for type.
Yes, imagine that. Imagine owning a gelding that you enjoy showing at
halter, who fits all the standards for the breed, but not being allowed
to show at Nationals because *some* folks want you to ride the sucker in
a show ring and win a ribbon first. Think of all that extra expense you
need just to show in the class you care about. Especially if you aren't
much of a performance trainer, and only want to do casual trail riding
on your beautiful horse, yet you have to pay for all that extra training
and showing just to get to Nationals. Doesn't seem very fair.
My point being, *IF* you are in favor of halter horses needing a
performance ribbon, it is only fair that performance horses need a halter
ribbon. If you aren't going to let people pursue what interests them
freely, then both sides should be limited.
Jessica
Jessica Snyder
>This sounds *most* interesting. How are the scores made public?
As I recall, each judge holds up a big card with the number on it
for each part they are judging. They then go on to judge the next
part (usually it uses 3 judges. For hurried Americans, they're considering
reducing the # of judges I think). The scores are also published for
all to see, I believe, somewhere at the show. I know they are public
record.
> Are we
>talking announcing point score along with placings and then posting
>and/or publishing the components scoring?
I think the component scores are shown on cards as they do them, and
then after they evaluate each horse, the placings are announced.
Someone who has been to the Egyptian Event recently, help me out here!
I know they use that system there!
> This might also help
>distinguish between classes where Dobbin got a blue but everybody stank,
>and Kipper got fourth but was almost even with first in tough company.
>Not that that's necessary, but it would sure be intriguing.
Exactly. And people use the scores in claims... someone advertised,
I think, that their horse scored a 10 in all categories once.
Jessica (feeling pointless)
Jane Kilberg
Larry Smith, palr...@micron.net writes:
>I think halter horses also have to do performance. For some of them this
>is showmanship, but many people also ride them in pleasure etc.
Showmanship isn't performance. I don't know about many other breeds, but
I can tell you in the AQHA, PAINT and APPALOOSA national and world shows,
I have yet to see in the last 8 years and then some, any Grand champion
or Grand reserve halter horse go into any working, or using performance
classes such as reining, western riding, jumping, hunter, games, team
penning, rope races, and so on. About 4 years ago I saw a Champion halter
yearling get into a pleasure-rail class as a 2 year old and got champion.
He was slated to get into english-hunter, but colicked and died when he
was 4.
down the sunny trails . . .
jane kilberg and her gang of spotted 4 legged critters at the
rocking double j ranch in the great nation of Tejas
member of ApHC, Sundance '500' Int'l (Appaloosa appreciation society)
Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
Jane Kilberg
Larry Smith, palr...@micron.net writes:
>To earn AQHA Supreme Champion, Pg 83-84
>Horse has to
>1. Race and have 2 official speed index ratings of 90 or more (AAA)
>2. Earn at least 40 pts in halter & performance at five or more approved
>shows under five or more judges.
> A. Min of 15 pts at halter, with a min of 8 of these pts after horse is two.
Halter is pretty easy to get local regional points. As long as your
performance horse is well conformed, the rest is stacked. Called
"politics"
> B. 20 pts must be in performance or racing. 8 of these 20, must be in
>one or more of the following events.
>
>Reining, working cow horse, western pleasure, western riding, jumping,
>green working hunter, working hunter, hunter hack, or hunter under saddle.
>
> 8 of the 20 must be in one or more of the following categories,
>
>calf roping, dally team roping (heading or heeling) or cutting
To have a horse who works cow, then english or western pleasure, then
halter then race and be able to get the points, this involved different
"types" of horses.
In the ApHC, there is something similar. It's called the medallion system.
One must earn National championships at halter, race, performance and
achieve 350 miles completed in distance riding. They can be in any order.
The first medallion is a bronze, second silver, third gold and fourth
diamond. To date no one has achieved diamond because to have a successful
race horse, that horse is of the wrong type for halter.
There has been some talk amoung board members over the years to change
this system cause it's next to impossible to achieve the diamond
medallion.
Jane Kilberg
jrsn...@students.wisc.edu writes:
>Halter classes ARE conformation classes... if your horse has rotten
>conformation, they won't do well in halter no matter how well they
>are shown.
If the horse has rotten conformation, they won't do well in performance
classes either.
>Thik of halter as another kind of performance... you need your horse
>to show it's conformation at it's best advantage, and you teach it
>to do that.
Halter is not a performance class. You can't teach conformation. One can
only hide the faults.
WHen one looks at the top shows of many of the stock breeds, IE, Quarter,
Paint, Appaloosa, Buckskin and so on, check out those halter horses.
You'll find it very difficult to "see" their real conformation. The trick
is to "hide" all the faults with a large amount of weight that is worked
to turn the fat into a hard mass. This hides the minor faults so the
horse appears to be well formed. But for what, I'm not sure. I guess to
just stand and look pretty.
Now, look at the performance horses, not the rail classes, but the using
classes like reining, jumping, games. You'll find nice built horses but
not heavy horses. Very, very few horses that are champion halter horses
when younger go on to excell in using performance classes as champions. I
know a few in the Appaloosa world, but dang few. Halter classes do not
and I repeat, do not represent a breed. They represent a human's opinion
of how pretty a horse should look. Mind you, that's look, not perform.
The reason why performance using horses aren't halter horses is because
they are built to be used. They are the athletes of the horse show world.
Halter horses are the pretty boys. They don't have to be athletes. That
is the difference between the two, distinct and separate horse industries
- halter and using performance. Rail classes aren't anything. They are
for show breeders who want to do something with their young stock and are
basically a seller's showcase.
Corey Lee Bishop
: Mary Rossano <ross...@cvm.msu.edu> wrote:
: >Re: the value of type:
: >
: >What about the differences in type within the breed? Whose type would be
: >the standard? The definition of type has evolved over time.
: Yet the arched neck, high tail carriage, large eyes, small ears,
: floating gait (up and down or hunter, they all float), refined dry/dishy
: head are in all types of Arabs. Very few purebreds are missing *all*
: those hallmarks of type. Every variety in the breed carries most of them.
: >If we placed too much emphasis on the dished head, we might really go
: >backwards in terms of performance. I for one, wouldn't trade a
: >dish-faced, short, triangular-necked critter for a straight-faced,
: >stretchy, swan-necked trotting fiend. I want a horse who is thrilling to
: >*ride*.
: Well, my thrill happens to be loping through the countryside, but that
: isn't really the point... the point is that all the various items that
: make an Arab and Arab fall within "type", and to ignore it is to not
: care if they look like their breed any more. I, personally, prefer the
: dished face, moderate neck, and big cicular powerful trot of my mare
: to any plain-headed hackney wanna-be English horse (not that all are,
: but some are). You do NOT have to sacrifice type for performance ability.
: >I don't see why a plain, but athletic gelding shouldn't be allowed to go
: >the Nationals to compete in performance. That would be extremely unfair
: >to the owner and trainer of the horse. Imagine owning a good horse who
: >is capable of winning, but being excluded because it didn't meet
: >someone's *subjective* standard for type.
: Yes, imagine that. Imagine owning a gelding that you enjoy showing at
: halter, who fits all the standards for the breed, but not being allowed
: to show at Nationals because *some* folks want you to ride the sucker in
: a show ring and win a ribbon first. Think of all that extra expense you
: need just to show in the class you care about. Especially if you aren't
: much of a performance trainer, and only want to do casual trail riding
: on your beautiful horse, yet you have to pay for all that extra training
: and showing just to get to Nationals. Doesn't seem very fair.
: My point being, *IF* you are in favor of halter horses needing a
: performance ribbon, it is only fair that performance horses need a halter
: ribbon. If you aren't going to let people pursue what interests them
: freely, then both sides should be limited.
I agree! I've seen some western pleasure horses that had a bad case of
cowhocks when standing still, they should pass a halter class somewhere
along the line.
And the stallion I am breeding to this year IS being shown in both halter
AND western pleasure, his first show is this weekend. I've got my fingers
crossed that he does well, but then he's drop dead gorgeous so I'm not
too worried.
If anyone wants to see him, he's in the World (I think it was last April?)
Look for Gypsy Village.
: Jessica
: ------------------------------------------------------------
: jrsn...@students.wisc.edu in Madison, WI and the crew:
: Kosh (Touchstonešs Harbinger) the Belgian Tervuren pup,
: Liza (Padronšs Starlight) the Arabian mommy mare,
: Nikki (Fathead), Pixel (Fuzzhead) and Voodoo (Blerthead),
: Demon Cats from Hell,
: and Keith, the wonderful husband who puts up with all of us.
: ------------------------------------------------------------
Jim & Laura Behning
>What has been your experience with Morgans, Laura? I worked at a Morgan
>barn which had quite a few waddlers, but they were of the newer style.
My experience has been that it's pretty damn hard to evaluate them
when they're posed like they're about to take a piss. In motion, all
that seems to matter is the side view- how high those legs are going.
Laura Behning
mor...@mindspring.com
C.M.Newell
>Re: the value of type:
>What about the differences in type within the breed? Whose type would be
>the standard? The definition of type has evolved over time.
>If we placed too much emphasis on the dished head, we might really go
>backwards in terms of performance. I for one, wouldn't trade a
>dish-faced, short, triangular-necked critter for a straight-faced,
>stretchy, swan-necked trotting fiend. I want a horse who is thrilling to
>*ride*.
>I don't see why a plain, but athletic gelding shouldn't be allowed to go
>the Nationals to compete in performance. That would be extremely unfair
>to the owner and trainer of the horse. Imagine owning a good horse who
>is capable of winning, but being excluded because it didn't meet
>someone's *subjective* standard for type.
>Mary Rossano
Especially since the Bedu didn't give a damn whether their horses had
pronounced jibbahs or not....
Jane Kilberg
bis...@eri.erinet.com writes:
>My latest acquisition, an AM Beau Triomphe daughter, has a fantastic front,
>I'm not totally happy with her rear end. But I'm breeding her to a
>stallion with a hip to die for, so I am keeping my fingers crossed....
Just remember, that even though the stallion may have "a hip to die for,"
he may not pass it along. Put the percentages in your favor. Check out
his offspring and the mares he bred, particular mares with similar
problems as yours. It's also a good idea to check out the grandparents at
least, preferably back another two more generations if possible about
that hip. You want a line that has consistent hips "to die for." That
puts the odds in your corner.
Good luck to you.
Jessica Snyder
>In article <4l0unq$o...@news.doit.wisc.edu> Jessica Snyder,
>jrsn...@students.wisc.edu writes:
>>Halter classes ARE conformation classes... if your horse has rotten
>>conformation, they won't do well in halter no matter how well they
>>are shown.
>
>If the horse has rotten conformation, they won't do well in performance
>classes either.
Agreed.
>>Thik of halter as another kind of performance... you need your horse
>>to show it's conformation at it's best advantage, and you teach it
>>to do that.
>
>Halter is not a performance class. You can't teach conformation. One can
>only hide the faults.
That's what I meant. Arabian halter makes those horses work... tighten
the croup, tighten the belly, arch the neck, etc. They aren't just
standing there, they are working hard to hide their faults (which
a good judge should see anyway, but how many are really good?)
>WHen one looks at the top shows of many of the stock breeds, IE, Quarter,
>Paint, Appaloosa, Buckskin and so on, check out those halter horses.
>You'll find it very difficult to "see" their real conformation. The trick
>is to "hide" all the faults with a large amount of weight that is worked
>to turn the fat into a hard mass. This hides the minor faults so the
>horse appears to be well formed. But for what, I'm not sure. I guess to
>just stand and look pretty.
With Arabs, it's stance and showiness that hides the faults, not fat.
And you can clearly see their real conformation when they are "let down"
on the rail. Now if only more judges would look when the horses were
relaxed...
(snip)
>The reason why performance using horses aren't halter horses is because
>they are built to be used. They are the athletes of the horse show world.
>Halter horses are the pretty boys. They don't have to be athletes.
That was the bone of contention: the Arab world recently required
halter horses to obtain a performance ribbon if they wanted to show
at Nationals. That's why I think the reverse should be true... i don't
like it for either side, but fair's fair. They've since dropped that
requirement, much to the dismay of Arab Q. Public.
I don't know whether it's due to that requirement or due to the buying
public's desire for pretty athletes, but Arabs are having a few more
halter/performance animals. It's still rare, but last years National
Champ. mare was a Junior English pleasure horse the year before.
And Remington Steele a few years back went National top ten halter,
and then went on to finish the Tevis Cup a year or two later.
And I know of at least one farm that is breeding with the goal of halter
winners who then go on to race successfully.
But for the most part, people rarely ask their halter horses to perform,
or their performance horses to halter. Anyone know why?
Richard Botterill
>
>In <4kjhic$m...@what.why.net> mjj...@why.net (Marcy Jackson) writes:
>>
>>If you look closely at the AQHA rule book, conformation is to be
>>considered in the placement of some performance classes. For example,
>>conditioning and conformation count a minimum of 20% of the total
>>judging of western pleasure classes. I think that this rule is often
>>forgotten since the horses don't take their saddles off.
>>
>>
>>
>>Marcy
>>---
>>Marcy Jackson
>>mjj...@why.net
>>Dallas, Texas USA
>>
>Gosh! How do you train your horses to do that? Sure would save some
>time in working multiple horses! Or multiple classes! Could you give
>us all some tips on this?
Maybe some of the horses on the rec.horses.only thread could tell us
how they do it. Only trouble is, they won't let us two leggids post
to their thread to ask the question.
Richard Botterill
bott...@technet.assiniboinec.mb.ca
Technologies and Environmental Industries Division
Assiniboine Community College
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
Corey Lee Bishop
: In article <4l3n7m$3...@eri.erinet.com> Corey Lee Bishop,
: bis...@eri.erinet.com writes:
: >My latest acquisition, an AM Beau Triomphe daughter, has a fantastic front,
: >I'm not totally happy with her rear end. But I'm breeding her to a
: >stallion with a hip to die for, so I am keeping my fingers crossed....
: Just remember, that even though the stallion may have "a hip to die for,"
: he may not pass it along. Put the percentages in your favor. Check out
: his offspring and the mares he bred, particular mares with similar
: problems as yours. It's also a good idea to check out the grandparents at
: least, preferably back another two more generations if possible about
: that hip. You want a line that has consistent hips "to die for." That
: puts the odds in your corner.
Oh, he does pass the hip on, the owner is a dear friend, I handled one
of his sons in a halter class last year. (BTW, the colt is for sale,
if anyone wants a drop-dead gorgeous show hack or hunter prospect...)
I also have seen six of his babies, all of which have his strong hip,
wonderful shoulder and long elegant neck. All in all, this horse can
PRODUCE!
The stallion I am breeding to is AM Gypsy Village, I've done tons of
pedigree research, know the bloodlines, know what I want to do with him,
and another friend has the mare's sister, who has the same hip but did
NOT pass it on. Also, the one foal the mare has had, didn't have her
mom's butt, so I am fairly sure I should get what I want. The mare doesn't
have a really bad hip, it's just sloped a bit more than I like.
Sorry, I'm a very PICKY breeder, have in mind what I want, and Mrs. T.
is looking over my shoulder, giving me the benefit of her 50+ years of
breeding experience. Next time I breed the mare (next year) she goes
to Good Oldboy, a AM Sea Captain son.
: Good luck to you.
: down the sunny trails . . .
: jane kilberg and her gang of spotted 4 legged critters at the
: rocking double j ranch in the great nation of Tejas
: member of ApHC, Sundance '500' Int'l (Appaloosa appreciation society)
: Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
Sue, who thinks she knows what she is doing, and doesn't mind getting advice.
Jane Kilberg
ross...@cvm.msu.edu writes:
>What about the differences in type within the breed? Whose type would be
>the standard? The definition of type has evolved over time.
Registries are suppose to define standard of type. And people make up
those registries. However, in the real world, prestige and money come
first, so type constantly changes. Sometimes it for the good, sometimes
bad. But so long as registries are sittin' on the fence and refuse to
define type, you'll have constant changes according to the successes at
the expense of the horse.
For example, take the HYPP genetic defect. At an Appaloosa national sale
two years ago, a mare in foal to a top ranking Appaloosa stallion tested
positive for HYPP. She is a champion halter mare, not saddle trained. The
stallion is a champion stallion and has produced champion horses. They
both have large muscles, small hooves and skinny legs. The stallion is
out of the same Impressive HYPP bloodlines as is the Dam. Stallion tested
negative. Mare sold for $20,000. Even if the buyer only wanted the foal,
there's a 50% chance that foal will be HYPP positive. That's an expensive
$20K.
I spoke with the buyer. He didn't care because all he was looking at was
a championship weanling/yearling and a chance to grab the brass ring.
I think, it's the people who show these horses and judges who pick them
who are the ones who define the type. In each area of horse usage which
has become very specialized, type rules; hence if you want a winner, you
either breed or buy that winner type.
IMO, the horse doesn't benefit from this type of human mindset.
A registry can define a breed and within that certain parameters, define
the different types. But if the types become so specialized as they have
been, they will change the breed definitions.
Mary Rossano
>I'm not Mary, but new thread is duly started. I agree that the
>European system would improve the judging here. At least you'll
>know *why* the judge placed the horses where they did, and the
>scores are public, so politics would be more difficult!
>
>As I understand the system, each horse gets a score from one
>to ten on various aspects, such as head/neck, legs, body, substance,
>type, etc. The scores are added (are they weighted, does anyone
>know?) and the highest scoring horse wins. That way, a horse with
>a 10 on type, a 9 on head/neck, but a 3 on legs will not beat
>a horse with a 8 on type, a 7 on head/neck, and a 10 on legs.
>For example.
>
>Can someone clarify if I have things right? And is there anyone
>here who thinks this would *not* improve the judging here?
I think it's great that the judges are *forced* to give a score for legs
and movement. They have to look, and make a call. It *is* a slow
process, but when championships and prize money are on the line, I think
that's appropriate. I am told that horses who are legends in their own
regions can meet with a pretty rude awakening when the legs scores come
in though...
Mary Rossano
Mary Rossano
>
>Yet the arched neck, high tail carriage, large eyes, small ears,
>floating gait (up and down or hunter, they all float), refined dry/dishy
>head are in all types of Arabs. Very few purebreds are missing *all*
>those hallmarks of type. Every variety in the breed carries most of >them.
But the fads change, and now there are halter specialists who have
defined the characteristics that halter horses are supposed to possess.
Would you agree that a horse who has the *Padron look tends to look like
a halter horse?
>Yes, imagine that. Imagine owning a gelding that you enjoy showing at
>halter, who fits all the standards for the breed, but not being allowed
>to show at Nationals because *some* folks want you to ride the sucker in
>a show ring and win a ribbon first. Think of all that extra expense you
>need just to show in the class you care about. Especially if you aren't
>much of a performance trainer, and only want to do casual trail riding
>on your beautiful horse, yet you have to pay for all that extra training
>and showing just to get to Nationals. Doesn't seem very fair.
"Living Art Forms" stand around looking pretty. *Horses* are supposed to
be useful for some purpose. I don't think a useful animal should have to
prove that he can be a "Living Art Form", especially a gelding. Really,
what good is a gelding who has never done anything but halter? He's not
breeding stock, and he may not be useful. Do we want to promote the
production of this type of animal?
>My point being, *IF* you are in favor of halter horses needing a
>performance ribbon, it is only fair that performance horses need a >halter ribbon. If you aren't going to let people pursue what i=
nterests >them freely, then both sides should be limited.
Well, AHSA hasn't asked me to re-write the rules yet ;-)... The way I
see our disagreement is this: you want performance horses to be more like
halter horses, and I want halter horses to be more like performance
horses. How am I doing?
I really don't see how winning in halter makes a whit of difference in
the worth of a gelding who can perform. In addition, in order to win at
halter the horse has to be conditioned differently - he has to be
fattened up and ponied or treadmilled - you can't ride him much. You
would be working at cross-purposes. Then there are the halter training
methods... Even in a low-power region like mine, that's what it takes to
win an A halter class. All so that he can compete with halter
specialists? I think such a policy would really run counter to the
spirit of the Gelding Incentive, and discourage people from using good
horses.
Mary Rossano
Donna Thompson
>>Jessica Snyder <jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
>>And the Bey Shah horses? How many of those do you see under saddle?
>
>Not many, and I've heard quite a few reasons for it. I won't use Bey Shah
>in my program, but to be fair, there is a Tevis Cup winner sired by him,
>and a couple of working western horses. I've never known anyone who
>bothered to try and ride their Bey Shah horses, so I don't know if they
>can't be ridden, or if the people who own them just don't bother.
>Jessica
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>jrsn...@students.wisc.edu in Madison, WI and the crew:
>Kosh (Touchstonešs Harbinger) the Belgian Tervuren pup,
>Liza (Padronšs Starlight) the Arabian mommy mare,
>Nikki (Fathead), Pixel (Fuzzhead) and Voodoo (Blerthead),
>Demon Cats from Hell,
>and Keith, the wonderful husband who puts up with all of us.
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
Jessica,
Perfecshaahn a Bey Shah son owned by Shirley Dover of
Clarksville, TN. has been shown in halter and is now being
shown in western pleasure by Tommy Garland. I have seen
Perfecshaahn he is a beautiful stallion with good conformation.
I have also seen ads for Bey Shah's full brother which is
being ridden in the ad. For some reason I can't remember the
horse's name or who owns him. I am sure there are small
breeders out there who have Bey Shah offspring that they ride
donna and Bajha Bey V (Huckleberry Bey x Baychaska)
HORSEMAN2
="Living Art Forms" stand around looking pretty. *Horses* are supposed to
=be useful for some purpose. I don't think a useful animal should have to
=prove that he can be a "Living Art Form", especially a gelding. Really,
=what good is a gelding who has never done anything but halter? He's not
=breeding stock, and he may not be useful. Do we want to promote the
=production of this type of animal?
There has been a lot posted about "horse's should be useful", and that in
some way showing a horse in halter is an inadequate use of the horse. Why
is showing a horse in a halter class for its own intrinsic beauty somehow
less honorable than showing it under saddle?
Horses were not "designed" to be ridden any more than they were "designed"
to be shown in halter. One person's preferance doesn't make an
application of their beauty, power, balance, etc. more "right".
Further, is a horse employed in trail rides or the performance ring
actually useful? One may consider a halter horse "eye candy", but by the
same token riding a horse might be similarly classed as "ego candy"
because the rider has bent the horse's will to their pleasure. There
isn't a horse alive that was born thinking "I can't wait to get one of
those funny smelling humans on my back and have them put a metal bar in my
mouth and yank on it to get me to go in circles!" :-)
JMHO,
Dick Turner
Dick Turner
Hors...@aol.com
John T. Klausner
<jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> writes:
>
>
>My point being, *IF* you are in favor of halter horses needing a
>performance ribbon, it is only fair that performance horses need a
halter
>freely, then both sides should be limited.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
Have to disagree with the philosophy on this one. A horse is meant to
do certain work. If the horse is bred to a conformation standard that
prevents this, the conformation standard is faulty. While I don't
technically object to exhibiting a performance horse in a conformation
class, the present Arabian Halter class is _not_ a conformation class,
it's a showmanship class and to fault a horse who is performing its
natural function for not excelling in a different category entirely.
It's like saying that if a hunt seat horse can't do Park, we can't give
it a national award. The two simply are not related. Halter is
Showmanship, not Conformation. Conformation that does not promote
performance is human vanity. The requirement that a halter horse must
be able to perform is a means of checking that human vanity. The
performance horse does not need to prove its conformation because its
doing the job it was intended to do.
SueK
John T. Klausner
writes:
>In the ApHC, there is something similar. It's called the medallion
system.
>One must earn National championships at halter, race, performance and
>achieve 350 miles completed in distance riding. They can be in any
order.
>
>The first medallion is a bronze, second silver, third gold and fourth
>diamond. To date no one has achieved diamond because to have a
successful
>race horse, that horse is of the wrong type for halter.
>
>There has been some talk amoung board members over the years to change
>this system cause it's next to impossible to achieve the diamond
>medallion.
>
>jane kilberg
Of course! It would never occur to them to change the requirements
for halter! Makes perfect sense. Lah di dahdi dah. O humans! Thy
name is Folly!
SueK
Jim & Laura Behning
<snip>
>Horses were not "designed" to be ridden any more than they were "designed"
>to be shown in halter. One person's preferance doesn't make an
>application of their beauty, power, balance, etc. more "right".
I agree. It is unfortunate that this attitude, however, seems to be
causing so much of a split in so many breeds, not just the Arabian.
>Further, is a horse employed in trail rides or the performance ring
>actually useful? One may consider a halter horse "eye candy", but by the
>same token riding a horse might be similarly classed as "ego candy"
>because the rider has bent the horse's will to their pleasure. There
>isn't a horse alive that was born thinking "I can't wait to get one of
>those funny smelling humans on my back and have them put a metal bar in my
>mouth and yank on it to get me to go in circles!" :-)
Neither would they want to be confined to a stall, fattened like a
pig, blanketed, stuck in a tailset or bustle, yanked around to get an
elevated head carriage in hand, subjected to IMO torture to get "that
show horse attitude", or limited to exercise on a walker or treadmill.
Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Laura Behning
mor...@mindspring.com
Mary Rossano
>
>There has been a lot posted about "horse's should be useful", and that >in some way showing a horse in halter is an inadequate use =
of the horse. >Why is showing a horse in a halter class for its own intrinsic beauty >somehow less honorable than showing it under s=
addle?
<snip>
>Horses were not "designed" to be ridden any more than they were >"designed" to be shown in halter. One person's preferance doesn't=
make >an application of their beauty, power, balance, etc. more "right".
I disagree - horses have, indeed, been "designed" to be beast of burden
(ridden or in harness). The variety of breeds we have attests to the
different uses horses have had in human history. The critters we ride
and drive today have been designed through selection by man. If we take
away function, we have no incentive to breed for soundness.
The Arabian breed got into some trouble when certain breeders began
marketing their stock as "living art forms". These horses were generally
useless, but sold for large sums to non-horsey speculators. I think the
price crash brought back some semblence of reality, but I would hate to
see the new sweepstakes classes put us back on that road.
Mary Rossano
Stethmir
Sylvia Glover
Stethmir Arabians
Stethmir
<jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> writes:
>But for the most part, people rarely ask their halter horses to perform,
>or their performance horses to halter. Anyone know why?
>
>
Halter horses not peforming: From lines not selected to be tractable and
durable; owner more oriented to type (judged most highly in mares,
stallions) than conformation (the leading consideration under current AHSA
rules in geldings only); training costs/time commitment req'd on
performance horse; many horses trained heavily at halter often not able to
become performance horses due to the manner in which they're "schooled"
for halter.
Riding/show horse not doing halter: Many do as youngsters (especially H-A
Sweepstakes); risky to "train" your riding horse in the manner halter
horses are trained if you want him/her to perform reliably under saddle
(this is true even in the more revved up English disciplines); many
performance oriented breeders are more interested in using pretty horses
and see halter as a frill (nice if the horse can halter too but not
necessarily a major emphasis in breeding).
Sylvia Glover
Stethmir Arabians
John T. Klausner
>>horses be shown in halter IF those classes are conformation classes,
>>not showmanship classes, which is what Halter has become.
>
>Easy to say, hard to prove. From what I can tell, for the *most*
>part, the best horses win at halter.
Says who? How do you define "best"? I think that is the crux of the
question. Depending on the particular show, horses with conformation
faults will place over horses with more correct conformation if the
faulty horse has a showy attitude. Which attitude may be whip induced,
by the way. If the attitude is not whip induced, the horse may be of a
disposition that makes it unsuitable for riding.
Now granted, if you bring in
>your western horse, and you just stand there, you will probably
>not get looked at because your horse will look dumpy and unimpressive.
>>Halter classes ARE conformation classes... if your horse has rotten
>conformation, they won't do well in halter no matter how well they
>are shown.
Are you saying that the western horse has poor conformation? Or are
you saying that a halter class is something _other_ than conformation?
Why does the horse look "dumpy and unimpressive" because it is just
standing there? Does it's conformation somehow change because it is
trained to have an "attitude"?
>Thik of halter as another kind of performance... you need your horse
>to show it's conformation at it's best advanFrom: som...@ix.netcom.com(John T. Klausner )
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: Re: Arabs: Halter vs. performance WAS: Re: Arabians with hock and stifle problems
References: <4k3qk5$4...@news.usit.net> <4k943t$m...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <4ka164$h...@news.usit.net> <4kbb6m$e...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <4kbpi1$8...@news.doit.wisc.edu> <4kbpon$8...@news.doit.wisc.edu> <4kgi9m$c...@reader2.ix.netcom.com> <4l0unq$o...@news.doit.wisc.edu>
In <4l0unq$o...@news.doit.wisc.edu> Jessica Snyder
<jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> writes:
>
>som...@ix.netcom.com(John T. Klausner ) wrote:
- and I can go along with a requirement that performance
>>horses be shown in halter IF those classes are conformation classes,
>>not showmanship classes, which is what Halter has become.
>
>Easy to say, hard to prove. From what I can tell, for the *most*
>part, the best horses win at halter.
Says who? How do you define "best"? I think that is the crux of the
question. Depending on the particular show, horses with conformation
faults will place over horses with more correct conformation if the
faulty horse has a showy attitude. Which attitude may be whip induced,
by the way. If the attitude is not whip induced, the horse may be of a
disposition that makes it unsuitable for riding.
Now granted, if you bring in
>your western horse, and you just stand there, you will probably
>not get looked at because your horse will look dumpy and unimpressive.
>>Halter classes ARE conformation classes... if your horse has rotten
>conformation, they won't do well in halter no matter how well they
>are shown.
Are you saying that the western horse has poor conformation? Or are
you saying that a halter class is something _other_ than conformation?
Why does the horse look "dumpy and unimpressive" because it is just
standing there? Does it's conformation somehow change because it is
trained to have an "attitude"?
>Thik of halter as another kind of performance... you need your horse
>to show it's conformation at it's best advanred. What's the point of having a pure breed
>if you totally lose breed type?
What's the point of having breed type on an unrideable horse? If the
horse can't perform it sure as heck shouldn't be bred. If all you want
is breed type, breed minis. They eat and poop a lot less!
>(snip)
>>If the Halter classes produce a
>>horse that cannot perform, then there is a real dichotomy within the
>>breed. That a performance horse cannot compete in a halter class
does
>>not seem to me to be a problem, since the requirements of the halter
>>class today are not only for "perfect" conformation (theoretically)
but
>>personality, pretty, and pizazz.
>
>All of which are part of Arabian "type", and should be taken into
>account when judging an Arabian.
I certainly do not object to type being taken into account when judging
an Arabian, but when type is a primary consideration and conformation
is secondary, we are deliberately choosing looks over performance, and
that is detrimental to the breed.
If a performance horse is so non-typey
>that they can't even get a ribbon in a basic "A" halter class,
The "basic A halter class" is different in one part of the country than
in another. What won't make the cut at Santa Barbara may take first
place at Tule, Wherever. If you want a standard, fine. Conformation
can be standardized, type cannot. There is Russian type, Gainey type,
Polish type, Spanish type, Crabbet, Egyptian, Davenport -- is that
enough? Type is in the eye of the beholder. Type is a preference. It
is subjective. Conformation is a standard. It is objective (although
not every body "sees" the same thing, most of us agree on the basic
ideal)
they
>shouldn't be getting shown at Nationals as one of the best the breed
>has to offer. Same with halter horses... if they can't even place
>in a basic performance class, they don't deserve to be touted as
>the "best" by being shown at Nationals.
>
>Horses with impeccable conformation may still completely lack Arabian
>type. A good horse is a good horse, you don't need type for that.
>That is why the Arabian halter standard places TYPE as the #1
>priority on which the horses are judged.
This goes back to the assumption that the horses competing are equally
well conformed. This is not a given. As long as type is #1 priority,
then conformation is #2. Pretty simple. Look good and who cares if it
can work.
>
>
After all, the individual
>>that places first in one show might stand last in a different group
of
>>horses. The horse is no different, just the competition.
>
>Exactly. That's what showing is all about... proving that, against
>a variety of competition, your animal consistently comes out on top
>will be a strong statement to the quality of that animal. If a
>performance horse can't win a few halter ribbons, they simply aren't
>the best of the best, and shouldn't go to Nationals. That's all
>I'm saying.
Why not? Given equal performance, the typier horse is likely to win.
If your super performance without type is really performing better, it
will win - because it performs better. If the typier horse is equal in
performance it will win. That's all I'm saying.
Any time there is a restricted gene pool (i.e. high stepping arabs)
there will be a lack of some desireable genes. When the gene pool
expands adequately for selection to occur, those having the more
desireable genes will be selected, thereby improving the group as a
whole. If you reject all of the desired animals because of their lack
of an extraneous characteristic, you lose all of the desired
characteristic. The Arab began as a performance horse pure and
simple. Only in this country has it been bred like a puppy dog to
"look pretty". We are in danger of losing its ability to perform.
(Except of course for Sue Bishop's Arabs!)
>Jessica
SueK
John T. Klausner
writes:
>I think, it's the people who show these horses and judges who pick
them
>who are the ones who define the type. In each area of horse usage
which
>has become very specialized, type rules; hence if you want a winner,
you
>either breed or buy that winner type.
>
>IMO, the horse doesn't benefit from this type of human mindset.
>
>A registry can define a breed and within that certain parameters,
define
>the different types. But if the types become so specialized as they
have
>been, they will change the breed definitions.
>
>down the sunny trails . . .
>jane kilberg
>
an occasional individual over or under". Check that against what's
showing and winning in the halter ring today!!
SueK
Jessica Snyder
>>floating gait (up and down or hunter, they all float), refined dry/dishy
>>head are in all types of Arabs. Very few purebreds are missing *all*
>>those hallmarks of type. Every variety in the breed carries most of >them.
>
>But the fads change, and now there are halter specialists who have
>defined the characteristics that halter horses are supposed to possess.
>Would you agree that a horse who has the *Padron look tends to look like
>a halter horse?
For me? Definately... because *Padron is my favorite Arab stallion ever.
My point was, that even as the fads come and go, the above points
of Arabian type remain... every fad encompasses them. Oh, the arched
neck may be longer, the croups may be flatter, or the head may be
straighter (think back a few years to when Almaden (sp?) went National
Champ...the heads that were winning then were all straight as a board!) but
still they mostly look like an Arab when compared to any other breed.
Fads are unavoidable, they are human nature. Some folk would say that
*Padron horses don't look like the ideal Arab... they sure don't look
like the Echo Magnificcoo foals that are sweeping the ring right
now!
>"Living Art Forms" stand around looking pretty. *Horses* are supposed to
>be useful for some purpose.
You miss my point. What if all the person *wants* is to show their horse
at halter, and do a little trail riding? They have a horse, they like
showing it at halter... why should they *have* to SHOW it in performance?
If all they want is a pretty horse that is sweet with them and their
kids, and will take them on the occassional ride, then the animal is
serving a good purpose. And even useful Arabs should still look like Arabs.
> I don't think a useful animal should have to
>prove that he can be a "Living Art Form", especially a gelding. Really,
>what good is a gelding who has never done anything but halter? He's not
>breeding stock, and he may not be useful. Do we want to promote the
>production of this type of animal?
As to what good such a gelding is, there is no absolute answer. The question
is, what good is he to WHO? Clearly he has no use for you, but I might
enjoy a halter gelding to putz around the trails on and smile at when I see
him in my pasture. And I would appreciate people who produce such
critters. To each their own, right? Being a halter horse doesn't mean
they are unsound. Hell, it doesn't mean anything other than they are
shown at halter.
>Well, AHSA hasn't asked me to re-write the rules yet ;-)... The way I
>see our disagreement is this: you want performance horses to be more like
>halter horses, and I want halter horses to be more like performance
>horses. How am I doing?
What I want is fairness, and some way to stop the breed from diverging
into halter and performance lines. If you're gonna make people who
want to play at halter get a performance ribbon in order to show at
Nationals, then why shouldn't people who want to play at performance
get a halter ribbon in order to play at Nationals? Fair's fair.
And it will help stop performance horses from turning into jugheaded
trotting machines, and help stop halter horses from turning into
unsound statues. I see us disagreeing about whether keeping type in
our performance horses is a worthwhile goal (since I'm all in favor of
having halter horses that can perform). You don't seem to think that
performing Arabs necessarily need to look like Arabs, and I think they
should (at least at the National level).
>I really don't see how winning in halter makes a whit of difference in
>the worth of a gelding who can perform.
Worth is in the eye of the beholder. The above is your opinion... others
may differ.
> In addition, in order to win at
>halter the horse has to be conditioned differently - he has to be
>fattened up and ponied or treadmilled - you can't ride him much.
Bull. One of the best ways to condition a halter horse is to take
it on long cross-country trotting rides, preferably up and down hills.
He doesn't have to be fat, just in good shape. Most performance horses
I see are in the same weight as halter horses. You don't need treadmills
and ponying to condition a halter horse, or we'd have never been able
to show in halter! You probably can't condition for high-level English
Pleasure and also show at halter, so maybe you show in performance one
year, and halter the next. Or vice versa. That's what many halter
folk have had to do (Look at Ericca).
>would be working at cross-purposes. Then there are the halter training
>methods... Even in a low-power region like mine, that's what it takes to
>win an A halter class.
Define "the halter training methods". The methods I use create a horse
who shows tight, *knows* what it is doing, isn't afraid, and has never
been hurt by a whip. They always *give* to pressure, and it never
harms their future performance training. Or are you assuming that all
halter training methods are the "beat & jerk until they look good"
technique? If so, you are sadly misinformed.
> All so that he can compete with halter
>specialists? I think such a policy would really run counter to the
>spirit of the Gelding Incentive, and discourage people from using good
>horses.
The argument runs both ways. If I have a halter gelding, why should I
have to spend all the time training, buying the right equipment (any
performance tack/outfit combo will cost at least $1,000), and showing
in extra performance classes, competing with performance specialists,
just so I can show that gelding at halter in the Nationals?
I'm only talking Nationals here, and I'm only talking about the same
requirement that was in place for halter... a ribbon (first or second?
I don't recall) at a class A show. Of course, since they've dropped
the requirement, the argument is somewhat pointless, but that hasn't
stopped me yet :) Getting a halter ribbon wouldn't be any harder
than getting a performance ribbon, that's for sure. Unless your gelding
happens to be really ugly, in which case perhaps he shouldn't go to
nationals, and you should be content with a Regional winner?
I don't think it would be a problem for Gelding Incentive programs...
I'm not horribly familiar with them, however, so I could be wrong.
Do they only work at the National level?
Jessica Snyder
>Have to disagree with the philosophy on this one. A horse is meant to
>do certain work. If the horse is bred to a conformation standard that
>prevents this, the conformation standard is faulty.
Do you think the conformation standards of the Arab breed are preventing
the horses from performing? Should we change our breed standards?
While I don't
>technically object to exhibiting a performance horse in a conformation
>class, the present Arabian Halter class is _not_ a conformation class,
>it's a showmanship class and to fault a horse who is performing its
>natural function for not excelling in a different category entirely.
I hate to break this to you, but ugly horses don't win at halter, no
matter how well they are shown (ugly meaning many things... I saw Jeff
Schall with a mare at Regionals who was gorgeous from the wither
foreward, but had the *worst* rear I've ever seen. Showed her socks off,
and got the gate.) I'm not a great halter showperson, but I can train
my horses to set up properly, and we've gotten ribbons at the Class
A level. But I can't train a horse to perform in a Class A performance
class. Does that mean those classes are simply showmanship? After all,
I can train a horse to be a great trail riding companion.
>It's like saying that if a hunt seat horse can't do Park, we can't give
>it a national award. The two simply are not related. Halter is
>Showmanship, not Conformation.
Bull. Halter is still conformation. Poorly conformed horses do not win.
Horses with some good and some bad points do win over other horses with
some good and some bad point, depending on which points the judges prefer.
But horses with more overall faults do not generally win over horses with
less overall faults.
> Conformation that does not promote
>performance is human vanity. The requirement that a halter horse must
>be able to perform is a means of checking that human vanity. The
>performance horse does not need to prove its conformation because its
>doing the job it was intended to do.
But if the job intended for the halter horse is to stand around and
look pretty, why should they have to perform? Its been many, many years
since horses were needed for physical work... now they are used for
entertainment. As long as the horse's conformation keeps it sound,
healthy, and suitable for the purpose it was bred for (even if that
purpose is eye candy), where is the problem? the horse sure doesn't care
what it looks like. Only we do.
And I could argue that breeding high-stepping horses is simply vanity
also. There is no usefullness in having them move that way, other than
human vanity. Perhaps we need a check on that vanity as well? And if
not, why is halter so much more evil than creating Arabs that move like
Saddlebreds?
Jessica Snyder
>I think it's great that the judges are *forced* to give a score for legs
>and movement. They have to look, and make a call. It *is* a slow
>process, but when championships and prize money are on the line, I think
>that's appropriate. I am told that horses who are legends in their own
>regions can meet with a pretty rude awakening when the legs scores come
>in though...
Agreed 100%! They need some wake-up calls about legs! But my question
is, why must it be so slow? Couldn't a judge use the system on their
own card, as they judge the horses (in the normal manner, all in the
ring at once), and then announce the scores as the winners are announced?
Like: First place, Ibn Blah, with a score of 7 on head/neck, 8 on legs,
6 on type, etc. etc. And of course the scores would be published on the
judge's cards that are open to public viewing.
I think that would speed it up some, while keeping the essential quality
of the system, which is to give each part of the horse a ranking and making
the judges have to judge the *whole* horse.
Whaddya think, folks?
Jessica Snyder
> Perfecshaahn a Bey Shah son owned by Shirley Dover of
>Clarksville, TN. has been shown in halter and is now being
>shown in western pleasure by Tommy Garland. I have seen
>Perfecshaahn he is a beautiful stallion with good conformation.
> I have also seen ads for Bey Shah's full brother which is
>being ridden in the ad. For some reason I can't remember the
>horse's name or who owns him. I am sure there are small
>breeders out there who have Bey Shah offspring that they ride
Good to hear it! I recall seeing the ad for his full brother
also. I honestly think that a lot of them could probably be
good performance horses (not the English Pleasure horse Mary
wants, probably, but good enough for the rest of us :) if the
people who buy them would just bother to train and show them
in performance! I'm so frustrated that so few "biggies"
bother to even *try* their horse in both categories. *sigh*
Donna Thompson
performance horses. Our Half Arabian/Half Trakhner gelding
was a Junior Champion Halter gelding as a two year old,later
as a three year old he was Reserve Champion in Halter as a
four year he was a champion Hunter Pleasure horse. We still
show this gelding in halter and performance as a 7 yr. old.
This gelding has turned out to be a super horse for my 15 yr.
old son to show him in halter & hunter pleasure. We even show
the gelding in 4H.
donna and Bajha
Stethmir
writes:
Sounds like this gelding is being shown right. Good job! Bet he isn't
overshown in his halter classes, taught to use his neck via extreme
methods, etc. The methods taught to kids in 4-H and probably carried over
by the youth who shows the horse now are a far cry from the manner in
which a heavily campaigned halter horse is trained. (I note that this
horse was shown relatively lightly and not at the Regional and National
level as a young horse; that was probably a good decision for his
subsequent performance career.) (Donna's previous posts indicate she's a
smart cookie about this stuff)
Sylvia Glover
Stethmir Arabians
Karen Malcor
M>From: mor...@atl.mindspring.com (Jim & Laura Behning)
M>I agree. It is unfortunate that this attitude, however, seems to be
>causing so much of a split in so many breeds, not just the Arabian.
Yes - it's been a revelation to me that when asking about paint
stallion referrals, I get few names of actual horses, mostly I get
people asking "but what do you want to *DO* with the foal?" As if I have
to pick an event beforehand!
With my Arabians, I breed for: Correct Conformation, Type, Sound minds,
sound bodies, fluid movement and great dispositions. I then evaluate
each foal after it's on the ground to see what it's own particular
talents will be. If it's a Western horse, that's what we'll show it
in... if it's a huntseat horse, we'll show it huntseat. High mover?
Saddleseat (either Country English, English Pleasure or Park). Halter
attitude? Well, we'll teach it to pose nice before we train it under
saddle.
Is this sort of attitude totally passe'? If so, that's kinda sad! I've
always felt that a good horse is a good horse - no matter what event
it's in!
- Karen
KpM Cornerstone Arabians
karen....@feed.com
---
þ QMPro 1.53 þ http://www.qdeck.com/~cornerstone/
Lisa Robertson
Corey Lee Bishop
: Mary Rossano <ross...@cvm.msu.edu> wrote:
: >I think it's great that the judges are *forced* to give a score for legs
: >and movement. They have to look, and make a call. It *is* a slow
: >process, but when championships and prize money are on the line, I think
: >that's appropriate. I am told that horses who are legends in their own
: >regions can meet with a pretty rude awakening when the legs scores come
: >in though...
: Agreed 100%! They need some wake-up calls about legs! But my question
: is, why must it be so slow? Couldn't a judge use the system on their
: own card, as they judge the horses (in the normal manner, all in the
: ring at once), and then announce the scores as the winners are announced?
: Like: First place, Ibn Blah, with a score of 7 on head/neck, 8 on legs,
: 6 on type, etc. etc. And of course the scores would be published on the
: judge's cards that are open to public viewing.
That sounds like a good idea. I'll be at Summer Camp with a few Arab
judges this summer, will ask them about the system and if it could be
done that way.
: I think that would speed it up some, while keeping the essential quality
: of the system, which is to give each part of the horse a ranking and making
: the judges have to judge the *whole* horse.
One thing I did learn last year, what you see from the ringside isn't always
the same as what the judge sees. Mrs. T. told me that she was judging a
show one time, lined the horses up in supposed to be order of ribbons, then
walked around her first place horse and found he had a nasty spavin on
the OTHER side (the handler had managed to keep it hidden from her until
then). So she had to mark that horse 'way down. She said the crowd booed
her since the horse was obviously great otherwise. But they couldn't see
what she saw.
: Whaddya think, folks?
: Jessica
: >
: >
: ------------------------------------------------------------
: jrsn...@students.wisc.edu in Madison, WI and the crew:
: Kosh (Touchstonešs Harbinger) the Belgian Tervuren pup,
: Liza (Padronšs Starlight) the Arabian mommy mare,
: Nikki (Fathead), Pixel (Fuzzhead) and Voodoo (Blerthead),
: Demon Cats from Hell,
: and Keith, the wonderful husband who puts up with all of us.
: ------------------------------------------------------------
Sue
Mary Rossano
>Yes some champion halter Arabs do grow up to be champion
>performance horses. Our Half Arabian/Half Trakhner gelding
>was a Junior Champion Halter gelding as a two year old,later
>as a three year old he was Reserve Champion in Halter as a
>four year he was a champion Hunter Pleasure horse. We still
>show this gelding in halter and performance as a 7 yr. old.
>This gelding has turned out to be a super horse for my 15 yr.
>old son to show him in halter & hunter pleasure. We even show
>the gelding in 4H.
He sounds like a real pleasure to own. Which parent was the Arab and
what was his/her breeding? Did you have any growth problems (OCD,
epiphysitis, etc) in the crossbred? I would like to do a WB/Arab cross
someday, but I am a little leery about the growth disorders which seem to
turn up so often in the WBs.
Mary Rossano
Mary Rossano
know you are supposed to talk to the show steward, but how do they prove
the horse is gingered if you didn't witness the event?
Sometimes I will see a horse standing on the rail at a halter class,
twirling its tail, passing large quantities of manure, and the judge and
the ring master do nothing. Is this because they can't *prove* that the
gingering occured? I am assuming that what evidence remains is inside
the horse in trace amounts.
How does a spectator take action without causing a witch hunt? Are the
odds of success worth the possible repercussions from the accused?
Mary Rossano
Jim & Laura Behning
I'm not sure what the answer might be. In Morgans, the "no ginger"
rule was recently repealed, as there is no "test' to prove the horse
was gingered. :-(
Laura Behning
mor...@mindspring.com
Corey Lee Bishop
I'd think the Arabian genes would certainly help with that. I've seen
relatively few warm-bloods, not really my bag and I don't seem to be places
where they are found in many numbers. I did get the chance to be around
a few of them when visiting in the Boston area, was impressed by their
size but not by the obvious leg problems that at least one of them had,
the WORST 'dish' gait I'd seen in ages. And the owner had paid big bucks
for this gelding, ick.....
: Mary Rossano
Corey Lee Bishop
: >The arab breed standard states that the Arabian is "14.1 to 15.1 with
: >an occasional individual over or under". Check that against what's
: >showing and winning in the halter ring today!!
: >SueK
: Sue,
: Have you ever noticed that some of the big gun halter
: trainers are not very tall (their under 5'6" tall) ? The
: halter trainer who is short can make a small Arab look large
: and a good size 15.1 Arab look like giants.
: I just love leading my 16.1 hand Half Arab/Half Trakhner
: gelding up next to some of the so called 15.3 to 16.0 hand
: purebred Arabs. The Arabian measuring stick must be different
: than the one I own or I have miss measured my gelding and he
: is alot tall than we think (17.0 hds maybe ?)
The honest trainers and breeders laugh a lot about 'Arab' measuring sticks.
Those are the ones who have a few inches carved off the bottom to make
the horse measure taller.
I'm sorta of in the same camp as my mentor, Bazy Tankersley. She says
very vehemently that Arabs aren't MEANT to be over 15.1, that you get an
imbalance in structure in Arabs over that size.
Somehow, IMHO, a 16 hand Arab just seems wrong. But others may differ,
it's just my preference.
Size doesn't matter, Americans tend to have this obsession with size
in horses. A lecture I heard from Hilda Gurney was really interesting.
She made fun of these 17 plus hand warmbloods that Americans are importing
with great expense. She says huge size is really a detriment in many
areas, like driving a huge truck, you have to steer the damn thing....
The best horse I have is a 14.2 mare, she's tough as nails, agile as a
cat, and has never had a pair of shoes on in her life.... feet like iron.
Oh, yes, and she also produces outstanding babies, currently she is on
lease to produce endurance horses in Va.
: donna and Bajha Bey V