Equine Affaire - Who's Going?
Nancy DeMarco
Nancy
Diane
Diane
"Nancy DeMarco" <nancy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:07b11546-9329-47e7...@x15g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
Mary
> I'm hoping to be there all 4 days. Anyone wanna meet up?
>
> Nancy
Me Me Me!!!!
I'll be there one of the weekend days, right now looks like Sunday.
Mary
Bummer, I just realized it is this weekend... have to see if I can re-
schedule some things. Maybe, Maybe not. :(
Mary
Nancy DeMarco
> Bummer, I just realized it is this weekend... have to see if I can re-
> schedule some things. Maybe, Maybe not. :(
Hope you can make it. :) But if not, we'll just have to figure out
another rec.eq meet-up. :)
Nancy
Nancy DeMarco
> I'm hopeing to go on Fri. as soon as i fininish turnning out the horses.
I'm going a bit late Friday - working in the morning and hoping to get
there by 2:00 or 3:00.
Nancy
MA Sandy
>
> Nancy
Well, that old saying about best laid plans? ;-)
I originally was going to split weekend call at the animal hospital
and have this Saturday off, but the girl with whom I was doing the
splitting had a change of plans LAST weekend and she did the whole
weekend instead. So, Miss Sandy is working Thursday pm, all day
Friday, and the regular office hours and call on Saturday and Sunday.
DAMN! I have never been and EA is just a little over an hour from
here.
Sandy
MA Sandy
So, now I may have Saturday off after all, BUT the BOs may be going
out of town overnight leaving on Saturday which means I have to do pm
chores. I think I am just not destined to EVER get to EA!!!!
Sandy
Jane Saranac
"Nancy DeMarco" <nancy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:07b11546-9329-47e7...@x15g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
>
> Nancy
We did decide at the last minute to do a whirlwind trip late Thursday night
after it closed and were there yesterday, but it wasn't enough time... had
my daughter and her friend and met up with the barn folks and had just about
had time for a little Mark Rashid and a little Susan Harris and that was
that.
I did like Mark, thanks for the tip, though I wish I had gotten to see more
of him. He had a good sense of humor too. I only saw maybe half an hour of
his "problem solving" clinic with the two girls with problem horses, and
thought of you, if you saw that clinic, you probably would have wanted to
get that horse with the striking/twitching problem under your hands to
figure out what was wrong with him physically (that seemed way beyond just a
nervous habit, to me.)
Nancy DeMarco
> I did like Mark, thanks for the tip, though I wish I had gotten to see more
> of him. He had a good sense of humor too.
I don't think his style translates well to a big arena forum. It's
too subtle. He's not a showman. It's a whole lot better up close.
> I only saw maybe half an hour of
> his "problem solving" clinic with the two girls with problem horses, and
> thought of you, if you saw that clinic, you probably would have wanted to
> get that horse with the striking/twitching problem under your hands to
> figure out what was wrong with him physically (that seemed way beyond just a
> nervous habit, to me.)
Mark did suggest a chiropractor. :) I couldn't help but wonder about
some variation of photic headshaking, or Lyme.
Sorry we didn't get a chance to meet up. I was running on Thursday -
so many things I wanted to see, at the same time, at opposite ends of
the grounds. Some good ideas on insulin resistance and Lyme
treatment. :)
Yesterday was more relaxed. :) I skipped Mark Rashid in the evening
and watched the versatility thing instead - very entertaining. :)
I just had a very wet ride on Lu, and will probably head back to EA in
a little while. Hoping to hit the massage/stretching thing at 1:00,
obesity at 2:00, maybe Mark at 3:30, maybe cut out early for
acupressure at 4:00 - we'll see. Versatility at 5:00 unless I leave
early. I'm short, wearing jeans and a polar fleece top with a horse
print, white sneakers. :)
Nancy
Jane Saranac
"Jane Saranac" <jsalaci...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I did like Mark, thanks for the tip, though I wish I had gotten to see
> more
> of him. He had a good sense of humor too.
>>I don't think his style translates well to a big arena forum. It's
>>too subtle. He's not a showman. It's a whole lot better up close.
Yeah I had that sense also.
> I only saw maybe half an hour of
> his "problem solving" clinic with the two girls with problem horses, and
> thought of you, if you saw that clinic, you probably would have wanted to
> get that horse with the striking/twitching problem under your hands to
> figure out what was wrong with him physically (that seemed way beyond just
> a
> nervous habit, to me.)
>>Mark did suggest a chiropractor. :) I couldn't help but wonder about
>>some variation of photic headshaking, or Lyme.
Yep. Something neurological going on I thought.
>>Sorry we didn't get a chance to meet up. I was running on Thursday -
>>so many things I wanted to see, at the same time, at opposite ends of
>>the grounds. Some good ideas on insulin resistance and Lyme
>>treatment. :)
Cool. I'm sorry we couldn't meet too, but we didn't get there till about 8
p.m. Thursday night
and so missed that day's events, and then by the time I got the girls
to shower and get out of the hotel and eat yesterday we didn't get to E.A.
till about 11 a.m.
Friday. We are a 2 plus hour drive. We came back home last night right
after the versatility event.
>>Yesterday was more relaxed. :) I skipped Mark Rashid in the evening
>>and watched the versatility thing instead - very entertaining. :)
Yes we watched that last night right before we left. It _was_ entertaining.
We got
there just as the woman riding English on the bay horse was doing an awesome
job and nailed
every obstacle. It went downhill from there <g>. We keep trying to talk
our trainer
into doing that event with her 17 HH app -- she'd nail it we think (he does
tricks, commercials,
climbs mounting blocks, follows her commands at liberty and is all around
obedient to her
even when he gets spooky. One of the young girls nicknamed him Superman,
and it's stuck <g>).
Nancy DeMarco
> Friday. We are a 2 plus hour drive. We came back home last night right
> after the versatility event.
I'm just over 2 hours away too. I've never gone more than one day
before, and don't go every year. This is the first time I've gone
every day.
> Yes we watched that last night right before we left. It _was_ entertaining.
> We got
> there just as the woman riding English on the bay horse was doing an awesome
> job and nailed
> every obstacle.
She did a great job. :) But the horse was kinda sucking back and tail
swishing - had to wonder why. There were some very good ones today -
fast. I'm going to try to make the finals in the morning.
Let's see... I sat through maybe 10 minutes of the massage demo, then
slipped down under the bleacher seats and snuck away. It reminded me
of everything I hated about massage school - all the myths and mis-
information that get perpetuated by massage therapists, proudly
presented as fact. Blech.
The obesity lecture was interesting - focused mostly on the effects of
stress hormones on insulin resistance. Mark Rashid's sitting the trot
thing was good. The rider did a great job, and the little horse
became ever so much more relaxed and fluid. At one point Mark told
the audience what he thought of "Natural Horsemanship," causing a
moment of stunned silence punctuated by little gasps. And in that
moment I liked him even better. :)
> We keep trying to talk
> our trainer
> into doing that event with her 17 HH app -- she'd nail it we think (he does
> tricks, commercials,
> climbs mounting blocks, follows her commands at liberty and is all around
> obedient to her
> even when he gets spooky. One of the young girls nicknamed him Superman,
> and it's stuck <g>).
She should enter. :) Maybe Louise should do it too. ;)
Nancy
Susan
> "Jane Saranac" <jsalaci...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Yes we watched that last night right before we left. It _was_ entertaining.
>> We got
>> there just as the woman riding English on the bay horse was doing an awesome
>> job and nailed
>> every obstacle.
>
> She did a great job. :) But the horse was kinda sucking back and tail
> swishing - had to wonder why. There were some very good ones today -
> fast. I'm going to try to make the finals in the morning.
>
A friend of mine was in the versatility thing - I don't know how she
did. Did you catch the names? Her name is Amanda; her horse is Sebastian.
I wish I could have gone to EA and met up with you all, but life got in
the way. :(
Susan
Jane Saranac
"Susan" <sca...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7m9b6vF...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>
> A friend of mine was in the versatility thing - I don't know how she did.
> Did you catch the names? Her name is Amanda; her horse is Sebastian.
>
> I wish I could have gone to EA and met up with you all, but life got in
> the way. :(
>
> Susan
Was it Friday? What did her horse look like?
Lisa Cook
> She should enter. :) Maybe Louise should do it too. ;)
>
> Nancy
And everytime I see one of those classes, I spend the whole time
thinking how Suzi Q would undoubtedly be amazing in it. We could turn
it into a team format with a rec.eq team. :-)
I went today and was cringing from the size of the crowds...did a lot
of walking around, but very little shopping...a replacement blade for
my clippers and some horse quenching stuff that when mixed with water
is supposed to convince Duke to drink when he's at a show....that was
the sum total of my purchases.
Watched the afternoon session with Bruce Davidson and felt bad for the
girl whose horse was so fried, she couldn't ride in the lesson.
Definitely brought back post-traumatic stress flashbacks to my old
horse Red.
I gave Andy $100 to spend if he saw something he liked. Within a 1/2
hour of arrival he had hooked up with a gaggle of pony clubbers and I
didn't see him again until the end. He handed me back $60...he bought
himself a new pair of gloves (his current gloves have holes in them),
and the rest of what he spent had been on food. Admirable restraint
for a teenager turned loose with cash!
Lisa Cook
Brookline, NH
Jane Saranac
> Yes we watched that last night right before we left. It _was_
> entertaining.
> We got
> there just as the woman riding English on the bay horse was doing an
> awesome
> job and nailed
> every obstacle.
>>She did a great job. :) But the horse was kinda sucking back and tail
>>swishing - had to wonder why.
I confess to not noticing. We were literally walking in looking for a seat
while she was riding, and I got caught up in the excitement, so much that I
couldn't even tell you what type of horse she was on, other than that it was
a bay : ). I would hazard a guess it was a TB but I couldn't swear.
>>There were some very good ones today -
>>fast. I'm going to try to make the finals in the morning.
Neat!
>>Let's see... I sat through maybe 10 minutes of the massage demo, then
>>slipped down under the bleacher seats and snuck away. It reminded me
>>of everything I hated about massage school - all the myths and mis-
>>information that get perpetuated by massage therapists, proudly
>>presented as fact. Blech.
I can tell that you are not of that ilk but I think you are a rare breed
: ).
>>The obesity lecture was interesting - focused mostly on the effects of
>>stress hormones on insulin resistance.
I am very interested in that. When I am not in regular
exercise to release stress, it doesn't matter what I eat, or don't,
it's like I ingest thousands of stress calories. My body is the supreme
"when you are under
stress I know and will shut down and make every calorie last a week so you
stay alive"
machine.
>>Mark Rashid's sitting the trot
>>thing was good. The rider did a great job, and the little horse
>>became ever so much more relaxed and fluid.
Would have loved to have seen that.
>>At one point Mark told
>>the audience what he thought of "Natural Horsemanship," causing a
>>moment of stunned silence punctuated by little gasps. And in that
>>moment I liked him even better. :)
Wow, I wish I could have stayed.
>We keep trying to talk
>our trainer
> into doing that event with her 17 HH app -- she'd nail it we think (he
> does
> tricks, commercials,
> climbs mounting blocks, follows her commands at liberty and is all around
> obedient to her
>even when he gets spooky. One of the young girls nicknamed him Superman,
> and it's stuck <g>).
>>She should enter. :) Maybe Louise should do it too. ;)
Talk about being worth the price of admission!!!
Susan
Sunday morning. I haven't heard anything new about it, though. She rides
english and western, so I don't know what tack she might have been doing
it in.
Her horse is a chestnut, I don't think he has much chrome, just a small
star. He's a morgan. She's young, and very petite. She'd been the barn
manager at Crystal for a while, but she got homesick and moved back.
Nice girl.
Susan
Cricket
"Jane Saranac" <jsalaci...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The obesity lecture was interesting - focused mostly on the effects of
stress hormones on insulin resistance. Mark Rashid's sitting the trot
thing was good. The rider did a great job, and the little horse
became ever so much more relaxed and fluid. At one point Mark told
the audience what he thought of "Natural Horsemanship," causing a
moment of stunned silence punctuated by little gasps. And in that
moment I liked him even better. :)
Nancy
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Oh, tell me more - I'm sure no one here ever noticed :>), but obesity is my
pet peeve. I often follow horses through their
lifetimes, through several owners, and I have a very acute, painful
awareness of how much damage overweight (and it doesn'
have to be obsesity) does. Unfortunately, as they say, a prophet is without
honor in his own land, and I just get glared at mostly.
Suddenly, in the last few years, scientific back-up has started appearing,
and now it's "Oh, we never thought of that being a problem!" Grrr...
Is there a link the text of any of the lectures, etc? Was it Rashid, or
someone else - couldn't tell from your post.
Cricket
Hunter Hampton
> At one point Mark told
>the audience what he thought of "Natural Horsemanship," causing a
>moment of stunned silence punctuated by little gasps.
ooh,,,,, what did he say?
Hunter
Cricket
"Hunter Hampton" <airstrea...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:so30g55j081nbqvlm...@4ax.com...
Last time I was at a gathering where that sort of thing happened, it was a
feeding seminar, and after some pretty harsh words for people who over
feed/grain horses who don't need it, about twenty heads swiveled towards
me...
My friend that went with me cracked up.
Cricket
MA Sandy
>At one point Mark told
> the audience what he thought of "Natural Horsemanship," causing a
> moment of stunned silence punctuated by little gasps. And in that
> moment I liked him even better. :)
> Nancy
MY DEERE NANCY: you cannot drop a bomb like that in the middle of a
UCAP and not tell us EXACTLY what he said! Enquiring minds and all
that rot... ;-)
Sandy
JZMiller
Yes, do tell, darling, what was the truth? :)
I went Thursday and Friday, had to buy some stuff, but could not find
it all. I watched the dressage demos with Pam Goodrich, they were
fine. Nothing to get all excited about, same old-same old, been there,
done that. I was expecting to see Stefan Peters, turns out he was sick
and not able to attend. :( I was sorely disappointed. Oh, well, I
guess another time. I never did get to the big western gurus. It
doesn't really appeal to me to hear the relative newbie stuff, it's
been said so many times it gets so old. I always wonder if the turn
over is huge in horses, is there someone new every day who buys a
horse? It seems that the Equine Affaire is based on educating new
horse owners rather than delving into serious issues above the
ordinary.
I still go though!!! Hope springs eternal! I want to see a crooked
horse with a crooked rider get fixed, LOL.
I had to buy a new bridle, the guys in the Better Living near the food
court from Kentucky always have great leather at VERY reasonable
prices. I got a bridle for the youngster for $58.00, for that he can
wear it a couple years and then throw it away. Saddle pads at Bit of
Britain were only 3 for $25.00, you can't beat that with a stick. Nice
quilted ones with braid trim in great colors, we will look lovely in
the new tan and the new burgundy one. Then of course I hit the Ariat
booth as soon as we hit soil in the morning Thursday, have to get
there fast to buy the boots you want. I found Cobalt professional
paddocks for $99.00, not cheap, but they sell now for $180.00 at
Dover, and the only thing I could see that was different is the toe
shape. New boots have a rounder toe, the old style (these) has a more
pointed toe. I needed them, my old ones are at least seven years old,
and are getting rather beat up. I was thrilled, mainly because I like
the zipper ones, and they are harder to find. So, I found my needs,
watched some dressage, and saw Fantasia. MHO, it was the worst one I
have ever seen. What was up with the King Richard's Faire jousting?
Boring for me. Plus, the little kid handicap riding was way too long,
touching, but not exactly what you expect to see paying for an
entertainment show, I think it was sort of the kind of thing you see
when the place has an Open House, or a Demo to ask for donations. I
found it strange, but, hey, that's me. :)
I'm sorry I did not check in to see who was going, I think I would
have gone to see the other demos if I knew others were there too.
Jody
Mary
> I'm sorry I did not check in to see who was going, I think I would
> have gone to see the other demos if I knew others were there too.
>
> Jody
Welll Phhhhhhhhhhbbbbbt! to you and the horse you rode in on. :)
Had you gone today, you might have seen a couple of people you know
and love volunteering to be guinea pigs for Mark Rashid's Aikido
demo. Not to be missed, I tells ya.
Mary
Jill
TELLLLLLL !!!!!!
:)
--
regards
Jill Bowis
www.kintaline.co.uk - where we are, what we do: Kintaline Plant and Poultry
Centre
Nancy DeMarco
> TELLLLLLL !!!!!!
Mark tried to sell us his new Signature Blue water bottle swinging
support device. (I already have the coarse green and the slippery
orange, so, despite the hefty price tag, the Signature Blue (ntm) was
a must have.)
Mary slapped me. I slapped Mary. I pushed Mary. Mary pushed me.
Mary is very strong.
Mark moved us with his mind. There was this one woman whose jaw never
did come up off the floor, except for those rocking sit-up things.
Speaking of which...
Mark can't count. At least not in a normal linear way. If he asks
you to do sit-ups while he counts 10 seconds, it would be wise to
slink back into the crowd.
Mark does seem able to count properly for push-ups and squats.
Mark can do a forward roll from a standing position to a standing
position without losing his hat. Once.
Mary had an opportunity to own his hat and sell it on ebay, but she
politely returned it to him instead.
I want to study Aikido. :)
Nancy
Nancy DeMarco
> Suddenly, in the last few years, scientific back-up has started appearing,
> and now it's "Oh, we never thought of that being a problem!" Grrr...
> Is there a link the text of any of the lectures, etc? Was it Rashid, or
> someone else - couldn't tell from your post.
There were several lectures by several people.
Frank Reilly talked about insulin resistance and laminitis. He would
disagree most strenuously with you. He wants these horses fed well
and out on pasture with a grazing muzzle. Cutting their feed to the
point where they actually lose weight perpetuates the problem.
He said there are different types of fat stored in different places.
Body fat is not a problem - the fat most likely to trigger a laminitic
episode is found in the crest. And this is true regardless of how the
crest came about. I bought his supplement - he claims it will rid
Louise of her steroid-induced cresty neck in 30 to 60 days. I'll
report back.
He also said that within the last two weeks this same fat type has
been found to exist in the coffin bone itself.
Then there was an obesity lecture - don't have the name of the
presenter in front of me, but he blamed stress and the effects of
stress hormones on insulin sensitivity. He too does not want to see
obese horses put on strict, low-calorie diets. In his practice, he
finds that this seldom results in weight loss other than significant
loss of muscle mass, hidden by fat. And the strict diet increases
stress, which lowers insulin sensitivity. Again, he wants them fed
well and outside, stressors identified and mitigated.
I'll experiment with Lucy. :) Unfortunately I think her stressors are
chronic Lyme and probable neck threadworm. I can manage them to an
extent. But I can't eliminate them.
Nancy
Nancy DeMarco
> MY DEERE NANCY: you cannot drop a bomb like that in the middle of a
> UCAP and not tell us EXACTLY what he said! Enquiring minds and all
> that rot... ;-)
It's just that I hate to risk mis-quoting. So, this is a paraphrasing
of what I believe I heard him say.
There has been more damage done to horses by Natural Horsemanship than
by anything to come down the pike in recent years.
No specifics, no finger-pointing, no names.
Nancy
Cricket
>"Cricket" <cricketc...@wmis.net> wrote:
>
>> Suddenly, in the last few years, scientific back-up has started
>> appearing,
>> and now it's "Oh, we never thought of that being a problem!" Grrr...
>>
> >Is there a link the text of any of the lectures, etc? Was it Rashid, or
> >someone else - couldn't tell from your post.
>
>>There were several lectures by several people.
>
>Frank Reilly talked about insulin resistance and laminitis. He would
>disagree most strenuously with you. He wants these horses fed well
>and out on pasture with a grazing muzzle. Cutting their feed to the
>point where they actually lose weight perpetuates the problem.
>
But but but - that's cutting the feed of ponies who got fat on pasture! ;>)
Though I do push grazing muzzles. And the Merck manual and any number of
other sources say don't grain ponies - so is he saying keep graining them
even though they're foundered, if you were doing it before??
I keep reading that, about issues with taking them off massive amounts of
feed, but I've never seen any happen. The best lameness vet around here has
a crash diet he puts them on - 5# of alfalfa hay *a day* (split up in
several tiny snacks), a pound of commercial mixed sweet feed (for vitamins
and minerals, and to get the thyroid supplement down), and...nothing else.
Well, water and a mieral block. Definitely not grass, until their weight is
where it should be, anyway. I wonder if they're doing their research with a
different population than I see here? Different proportion of grain to hay
to grass, or something? Every horse I've ever dealt with that they pulled
the grain from and kept off pasture part of the day - got better! And yet I
keep seeing that it will cause a problem. There has to be something else
gong on here (besides an urge to sell supplements). Though I shouldn't
complain, I've gotten a couple of very nice freebies that way.
>
>He said there are different types of fat stored in different places.
>Body fat is not a problem - the fat most likely to trigger a laminitic
>episode is found in the crest. And this is true regardless of how the
>crest came about. I bought his supplement - he claims it will rid
>Louise of her steroid-induced cresty neck in 30 to 60 days. I'll
>report back.
Crest fat (or the tendency to store it there) definitely seems to be worse
than any other. As far as how it came about - fat is a symptom, usually of
overeating but not always, and founder is a symptom, usually of being too
fat, but not always. I suspect that, like the founder shoe of the week
(that I've seen twenty different times, plus "barefoot in sand is best"
since I've been shoeing), all methods work with some causes. And also there
is a very annoying tendency, at least among vets and probably some shoers,
to try to find a fix that, for instance, doesn't require them to tell people
to take off all that beautiful halter show fat.
Never seen a healthy skinny horse founder, unless someone dumped fifty
pounds of grain into its pen (seen that), or there's an infection of some
sort.
>He also said that within the last two weeks this same fat type has
>been found to exist in the coffin bone itself.
>
>Then there was an obesity lecture - don't have the name of the
>presenter in front of me, but he blamed stress and the effects of
>stress hormones on insulin sensitivity. He too does not want to see
>obese horses put on strict, low-calorie diets. In his practice, he
>finds that this seldom results in weight loss other than significant
>loss of muscle mass, hidden by fat. And the strict diet increases
>stress, which lowers insulin sensitivity. Again, he wants them fed
>well and outside, stressors identified and mitigated.
I wonder if they're working with stalled horses - once again, every horse
I've ever dealt with that got cut back (no grain, less, but still plenty of,
hay, no grass), did fine. I wonder if they're studying stubborn cases -
ones who are already on a normal diet and still get fat and founder. The
vast, vast majority of fat and founder issues I see are strictly due to
ridiculous amounts of overfeeding. Totally and one hundred percent the
owners fault. Maybe, since those are the ones people would bring to a
specialist vet, these are horses who are getting fat on a normal diet?
It just seems odd that, in twenty-six years, and several hundred over fed
horses dieted down out of founder or pre-laminitic changes, that not one has
ever had an issue...perhaps there is a metabolic line that equals "what this
horse should maintain proper weight on", and if they're getting less feed
than that and are fat, they have a whole different set of body chemistry
issues?
>
>I'll experiment with Lucy. :) Unfortunately I think her stressors are
>chronic Lyme and probable neck threadworm. I can manage them to an
>extent. But I can't eliminate them.
I thought...tetracycline(??) was supposed to deal with Lyme...to the point
that it was a diagnostic? Of course, I was told that not by a vet, but by
someone who ran a big boarding/dressage/HJ barn, who *should* have
understood what her vet told her, but may not have.
What's up with neck threadworm? I thought ivermectin took care of
that...that one I *was* told by a vet. Though it was a few years ago, they
may have learned otherwise since?
Cricket
>
>Nancy
Cricket
MA Sandy <sandrabrown_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Nancy
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
If he meant to include in that those who do it even worse than it already is
by mis-interpreting, I'll buy it.
I'm always pointing out that a lot of the big-name trainers have, somewhere
in their books, a line something like "If the horse does this, try this. If
he still does it, try this other thing. If he*still* does it - call a real
trainer."
No one ever reads that last line.
Cricket
Nancy DeMarco
> But but but - that's cutting the feed of ponies who got fat on pasture! ;>)
> Though I do push grazing muzzles. And the Merck manual and any number of
> other sources say don't grain ponies - so is he saying keep graining them
> even though they're foundered, if you were doing it before??
He did say to feed a low-carb feed according to the instructions on
the bag. Generally he can't get owners to do this, because they are
completely invested in dry-lotting the horse, feeding limited amounts
of hay, and feeding maybe a cup of low-carb feed. In his experience
insulin-resistant horses stay fat and laminitic on this regimen, and
the owners are tearing their hair out.
But he is recommending the low-carb feeds at the recommended amounts
in order to make sure the horse is getting his micro-nutrients. I
personally see no reason not to just feed a vitamin-mineral supplement
instead.
> I keep reading that, about issues with taking them off massive amounts of
> feed, but I've never seen any happen. The best lameness vet around here has
> a crash diet he puts them on - 5# of alfalfa hay *a day* (split up in
> several tiny snacks), a pound of commercial mixed sweet feed (for vitamins
> and minerals, and to get the thyroid supplement down), and...nothing else.
> Well, water and a mieral block. Definitely not grass, until their weight is
> where it should be, anyway. I wonder if they're doing their research with a
> different population than I see here? Different proportion of grain to hay
> to grass, or something? Every horse I've ever dealt with that they pulled
> the grain from and kept off pasture part of the day - got better! And yet I
> keep seeing that it will cause a problem. There has to be something else
> gong on here (besides an urge to sell supplements). Though I shouldn't
> complain, I've gotten a couple of very nice freebies that way.
He wants them out on pasture for at least 8 hours per day. But he
does want them in a grazing muzzle. He said that horses turned out on
grass with a grazing muzzle did better than horses dry-lotted and put
on an exercise program. (Better meant a drop in insulin and glucose
levels, loss of excess fat, end of laminitis.)
> I wonder if they're working with stalled horses - once again, every horse
> I've ever dealt with that got cut back (no grain, less, but still plenty of,
> hay, no grass), did fine.
I do think these vets see a lot of stalled horses - horses who get
less than 8 hours of turnout daily on grass or dry lot, and are
otherwise stalled.
> I wonder if they're studying stubborn cases -
> ones who are already on a normal diet and still get fat and founder.
Absolutely. The typical patient is a fat, cresty horse who has been
on a very strict diet, stays fat and stays laminitic.
The
> vast, vast majority of fat and founder issues I see are strictly due to
> ridiculous amounts of overfeeding.
Not the case here - these are "easy keepers." Just as an example,
Lucy has been getting 16ish lbs of grass hay daily divided into 4 to 5
feedings, and less than 1/2 lb of low-starch feed, plus vitamin/
mineral supplements. She is ridden daily for an hour or more,
including lots of hills and some fast work. She is just over 15 hh,
weighs about 1100 lbs, and she is a whale.
I'm adding the recommended supplement (Heiro), increasing her hay,
soaking it, increasing her feed, keeping her work about the same, and
hoping the extra food doesn't push her over the cliff. I've been told
to expect an initial gain, followed by a steady loss. We'll see.
Totally and one hundred percent the
> owners fault. Maybe, since those are the ones people would bring to a
> specialist vet, these are horses who are getting fat on a normal diet?
Yup.
> It just seems odd that, in twenty-six years, and several hundred over fed
> horses dieted down out of founder or pre-laminitic changes, that not one has
> ever had an issue...perhaps there is a metabolic line that equals "what this
> horse should maintain proper weight on", and if they're getting less feed
> than that and are fat, they have a whole different set of body chemistry
> issues?
Yup.
> I thought...tetracycline(??) was supposed to deal with Lyme...to the point
> that it was a diagnostic?
The most current research is showing a 50% relapse rate with oral
doxycycline, 75% relapse rate with Naxcel IM, and no relapse with 3
weeks of tetracycline IV. That's several thousand dollars, and the
study is young enough that I'm not confident in the lack of relapse.
It may just take a bit longer. But if it's for real, I'll scrape it
up.
The vet who did the presentation is doing, I think, 3 days of
tetracycline IV followed by oral powder for maybe 3 weeks? And
claiming a 75% cure rate. I would definitely try that route.
> What's up with neck threadworm? I thought ivermectin took care of
> that...that one I *was* told by a vet. Though it was a few years ago, they
> may have learned otherwise since?
Ivermectin gets the microfilaria, but to the best of my knowledge
there is no treatment for the adults in the neck - they'll die in
about 5 years. There have been anecdotal accounts of success using a
double dose of, I think, Equimax. I'm waiting to see if it did
anything for Lucy. Right now she isn't feeling all that well.
Nancy
Nancy DeMarco
http://equinemedsurg.com/orderform.html
Nancy
Cricket
"Cricket" <cricketc...@wmis.net> wrote:
> But but but - that's cutting the feed of ponies who got fat on pasture!
> ;>)
> Though I do push grazing muzzles. And the Merck manual and any number of
> other sources say don't grain ponies - so is he saying keep graining them
> even though they're foundered, if you were doing it before??
He did say to feed a low-carb feed according to the instructions on
the bag. Generally he can't get owners to do this, because they are
completely invested in dry-lotting the horse, feeding limited amounts
of hay, and feeding maybe a cup of low-carb feed. In his experience
insulin-resistant horses stay fat and laminitic on this regimen, and
the owners are tearing their hair out.
But he is recommending the low-carb feeds at the recommended amounts
in order to make sure the horse is getting his micro-nutrients. I
personally see no reason not to just feed a vitamin-mineral supplement
instead.
#Been my experience - that the vitamin-mineral supplement works fine.
> I keep reading that, about issues with taking them off massive amounts of
> feed, but I've never seen any happen. The best lameness vet around here
> has
> a crash diet he puts them on - 5# of alfalfa hay *a day* (split up in
> several tiny snacks), a pound of commercial mixed sweet feed (for vitamins
> and minerals, and to get the thyroid supplement down), and...nothing else.
> Well, water and a mieral block. Definitely not grass, until their weight
> is
> where it should be, anyway. I wonder if they're doing their research with
> a
> different population than I see here? Different proportion of grain to hay
> to grass, or something? Every horse I've ever dealt with that they pulled
> the grain from and kept off pasture part of the day - got better! And yet
> I
> keep seeing that it will cause a problem. There has to be something else
> gong on here (besides an urge to sell supplements). Though I shouldn't
> complain, I've gotten a couple of very nice freebies that way.
He wants them out on pasture for at least 8 hours per day. But he
does want them in a grazing muzzle. He said that horses turned out on
grass with a grazing muzzle did better than horses dry-lotted and put
on an exercise program. (Better meant a drop in insulin and glucose
levels, loss of excess fat, end of laminitis.)
#Because they move - I often tell people to put a grazing muzzle on their
horse and send them out, telling them that they will get a #tiny taste of
grass, and keep walking trying to "get to" more. But it's the walking, not
the pasture, I think. Maybe they're trying to #be nice and dry-lotting them
with company. I usually put them in alone, just so they *will* pace.
> I wonder if they're working with stalled horses - once again, every horse
> I've ever dealt with that got cut back (no grain, less, but still plenty
> of,
> hay, no grass), did fine.
I do think these vets see a lot of stalled horses - horses who get
less than 8 hours of turnout daily on grass or dry lot, and are
otherwise stalled.
> I wonder if they're studying stubborn cases -
> ones who are already on a normal diet and still get fat and founder.
Absolutely. The typical patient is a fat, cresty horse who has been
on a very strict diet, stays fat and stays laminitic.
#And I'll buy it with them - but the vast majority of foundered horses and
ponies are just fed too damn much, and when the owners
#read these things, they refuse to give them the diet they should have been
on in the first place, because "that guy said it's bad for #them". Well
it's bad for them to feed them too damn much, but they were doing that and
not worrying about it!
The
> vast, vast majority of fat and founder issues I see are strictly due to
> ridiculous amounts of overfeeding.
Not the case here - these are "easy keepers." Just as an example,
Lucy has been getting 16ish lbs of grass hay daily divided into 4 to 5
feedings, and less than 1/2 lb of low-starch feed, plus vitamin/
mineral supplements. She is ridden daily for an hour or more,
including lots of hills and some fast work. She is just over 15 hh,
weighs about 1100 lbs, and she is a whale.
I'm adding the recommended supplement (Heiro), increasing her hay,
soaking it, increasing her feed, keeping her work about the same, and
hoping the extra food doesn't push her over the cliff. I've been told
to expect an initial gain, followed by a steady loss. We'll see.
#Sounds scary, but I've never encountered a horse with that sort of issues
that wasn't a thyroid case, so maybe it will work. Will be #interesting to
see.
Totally and one hundred percent the
> owners fault. Maybe, since those are the ones people would bring to a
> specialist vet, these are horses who are getting fat on a normal diet?
Yup.
> It just seems odd that, in twenty-six years, and several hundred over fed
> horses dieted down out of founder or pre-laminitic changes, that not one
> has
> ever had an issue...perhaps there is a metabolic line that equals "what
> this
> horse should maintain proper weight on", and if they're getting less feed
> than that and are fat, they have a whole different set of body chemistry
> issues?
Yup.
> I thought...tetracycline(??) was supposed to deal with Lyme...to the point
> that it was a diagnostic?
The most current research is showing a 50% relapse rate with oral
doxycycline, 75% relapse rate with Naxcel IM, and no relapse with 3
weeks of tetracycline IV. That's several thousand dollars, and the
study is young enough that I'm not confident in the lack of relapse.
It may just take a bit longer. But if it's for real, I'll scrape it
up.
#Yikes! Tetracycline is available as a generic (or maybe that is the
generic name, I forget which), why so much?
The vet who did the presentation is doing, I think, 3 days of
tetracycline IV followed by oral powder for maybe 3 weeks? And
claiming a 75% cure rate. I would definitely try that route.
#Hmmm - the woman that told me about it was giving it herself, but it occurs
to me I don't recall by what route.
> What's up with neck threadworm? I thought ivermectin took care of
> that...that one I *was* told by a vet. Though it was a few years ago, they
> may have learned otherwise since?
Ivermectin gets the microfilaria, but to the best of my knowledge
there is no treatment for the adults in the neck - they'll die in
about 5 years. There have been anecdotal accounts of success using a
double dose of, I think, Equimax. I'm waiting to see if it did
anything for Lucy. Right now she isn't feeling all that well.
#Ah - like heartworm. I know some of them get killed by something - I've
seen ugly nasty (though basically harmless) ickies on a #horse's neck from
them dying and pussing up and coming out. Interesting.
#Will be intersting to see how it all goes - of course, my academic interest
is less stressful than your real-life interest!
#Cricket
Nancy
Nancy DeMarco
> #Ah - like heartworm. I know some of them get killed by something - I've
> seen ugly nasty (though basically harmless) ickies on a #horse's neck from
> them dying and pussing up and coming out. Interesting.
That happens when the microfilaria die off.
Nancy
Nancy DeMarco
www.ssequineclinic.com/presentations/Lyme%20Disease.ppt
Nancy
Cricket
"Cricket" <cricketc...@wmis.net> wrote:
Nancy
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Ah. I'd complain about vet's using inaccurate language, but I'm guilty of
referring to laminitis in general as founder
so I'm in no position to talk.
Cricket