Racking speed and Rowdy
Ignatzmom
-- here Comes Rowdy"
The meat of it is: "This violator (of the speed limit) is a horse and you
clock him at 51 mph. In Clintwood it could only be one horse-- a small
stallion named EZD's Falcons Rowdy -- and if his owners, the Demetrises, are on
the level, he's the fastest horse in the world. Secretariat never broke 50,
and neither did Man O'War, Seabiscuit, Spectacular Bid or any of those stars of
the equine firmament. Horses just don't run that fast . . . but wait, Rowdy
doesn't run; he racks or 'singlefoots.'
His owners claim that he was timed in excess of 50 mph at Texas A&M University;
we're still checking. Rowdy is a member of a rare line of horses called the
'Kentucky Walker' (cut stuff) Rowdy himself is just 14.1 hands high, a dun
color . .."
I also found the flier used to promote Rowdy for breeding -- claiming 2 time
World Grand Champion Speed Racking, Flat Shod. he was owned by John Demetris
of Clintwood Virginia.
The person who was involved with the gait study at A&M was Dr. William McMillan
-- according to my source he used a stopwatch to time the horse.
Now I can fold all this back up and stuff it in a drawer for another 20 years.
BTW anyone wanting a copy, I can scan in and email if you are interested. I
also have a personal letter from Patty McNutt about Demetris and the horse,
parts of which are even in standard English.
Lee, Still riding after all these years.
Donna Guyton
Ignatzmom <igna...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199808172012...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> OK, gang, I found the article. June 1980 Equus, title :"Check that
stopwatch
> -- here Comes Rowdy"
> -- and if his owners, the Demetrises, are on
> the level, he's the fastest horse in the world.
See, that's the problem I'm having with it...the word *IF.* *If* leaves
alot to chance and speculation. *If* to me means that *if the owners are
being truthful then he's the fastest.*
> His owners claim that he was timed in excess of 50 mph at Texas A&M
University;
> we're still checking.
Another word that bother me.....*claim.* This also leaves alot to chance
and speculation.
> I also found the flier used to promote Rowdy for breeding -- claiming 2
time
> World Grand Champion Speed Racking, Flat Shod. he was owned by John
Demetris
> of Clintwood Virginia.
Do you think they would happen to have his times on record? That would be
interesting to see.
>
> The person who was involved with the gait study at A&M was Dr. William
McMillan
> -- according to my source he used a stopwatch to time the horse.
This also leaves alot to chance according to whether the timer was standing
at the finish line or the starting line. Also, this leaves alot to
speculate as to whether the horse was actually racking on the other side of
the track where he possibly couldn't be seen.
I don't rule out that there is a SLIGHT possibility that it didn't
happen......but the facts don't conclude *hard evidence* to support
it.....therefore, I tend to sway in the direction that racking at 50 mph is
not possible. I mean it's not an everyday occurence as some of the racking
horse owners claim. I once raced a man with my racker who claimed his
horse would rack a solid 35 mph rack.....I never claim mine can rack over
25mph so I don't get my foot stuck in my mouth (although he'll rack close
to 30mph everyday). That day my horse racked all over that man SO BAD that
he took his horse loaded up and went home and never said another word. So,
does that mean my horse racks 35mph.....maybe, but I wouldn't say it out
loud.
Donna Guyton (needing more evidence than *if's* and *claims*....but still
knowing anything is possible)
Guyton Stables, SC
Beth Blasienz
> His owners claim that he was timed in excess of 50 mph at Texas A&M University;
> we're still checking. Rowdy is a member of a rare line of horses called the
> 'Kentucky Walker' (cut stuff) Rowdy himself is just 14.1 hands high, a dun
> The person who was involved with the gait study at A&M was Dr. William McMillan
> -- according to my source he used a stopwatch to time the horse.
>
> Now I can fold all this back up and stuff it in a drawer for another 20 years.
> BTW anyone wanting a copy, I can scan in and email if you are interested. I
> also have a personal letter from Patty McNutt about Demetris and the horse,
> parts of which are even in standard English.
>
> Lee, Still riding after all these years.
Lee---he is Dr. Mac to us here at Texas A&M University! ;-) Actually
his name is Dr. William MacMullan---he is a nationally known lameness
expert in gaited horses. There are quite a few Peruvian Pasos in Texas
that come to him for various and assundry lamenesses.
Beth Blasienz
Bryan, Texas
Tom Stovall
> OK, gang, I found the article. June 1980 Equus, title :"Check that
> stopwatch -- here Comes Rowdy"...
>
> The meat of it is: "This violator (of the speed limit) is a horse and
> you clock him at 51 mph. In Clintwood it could only be one horse-- a
> small stallion named EZD's Falcons Rowdy -- and if his owners, the
> Demetrises, are on the level, he's the fastest horse in the world.
C'mon, does anybody really believe any horse can rack faster than race
horses run?
> Secretariat never broke 50, and neither did Man O'War, Seabiscuit,
>Spectacular Bid or any of those stars of the equine firmament. Horses
>just don't run that fast . . . but wait, Rowdy doesn't run; he racks or
>'singlefoots.'...
That Rowdy racks may be true, but he never racked faster than race
horses run. Not once, not ever.
> His owners claim that he was timed in excess of 50 mph at Texas A&M
> University...
ROTFLMAO! "His owners claim?"
[...]
> I also found the flier used to promote Rowdy for breeding -- claiming
>2 time World Grand Champion Speed Racking, Flat Shod...
Where do they write races for racking horses?
> The person who was involved with the gait study at A&M was Dr. William
> McMillan -- according to my source he used a stopwatch to time the
> horse...
Dr. Mac is a retired professor at A&M, a good guy, and an astute
judge of horseflesh who damn sure knows something about a horse. I know
Dr. Mac personally and I very seriously doubt that he would make any
claims about the speed of any horse on the basis of timing with a hand
held stopwatch.
I would doubt even more that Dr. Mac would claim that any horse could
rack faster than race horses run - certainly not unless he timed both
horses under the exactly the same conditions. Funny, there was no
mention of comparative times over the same course, or timing under the
same conditions.
Could it be that the racking horse's connections had an ulterior motive
for trying to bullshit the troops? No le hace. On relating this story to
a client, he said,
"Tell them folks that if they think a racking horse ever drew fresh
air on the day they he could outrun a decent Thoroughbred going
anywhere from the length of a bale of hay to two miles, they need
to gather up their racking horse and all the cash they can carry and
come to Texas because they can goddam sure bust me."
Tom Stovall
AFA Journeyman Farrier
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
"There's a sucker born every minute." -Phineas T. Barnum
MClark6145
over 35mph,,a phenom could do what Rowdy was claimed to have done..You see the
rack is the most effecient gait,,not the saddlebred rack,,but the natural
racking horse rack..One foot on the ground at a time propelling the horse over
the ground..The reason Secretariat was so fast was because he used himself so
effeciently,,like the spokes of a wheel...Do not doubt the speed of the "true"
rack when accompanied in the horse by strong gait modifiing genes..These rare
individuals will blow your mind away..Some of the fastest pacers in the harness
world are acually doing a slightly broken pace(moving towards the rack),,the
effieciency of the rack is unparalleled..if you rode it,,you too would
believe,,,,maybe not 50mph,,but certainly faster than many, many horses can
run..
Patricia
Jane H. Kilberg
igna...@aol.com (Ignatzmom) wrote:
>OK, gang, I found the article. June 1980 Equus, title :"Check that stopwatch
>-- here Comes Rowdy"
(snipped parts)
>Now I can fold all this back up and stuff it in a drawer for another 20 years.
>BTW anyone wanting a copy, I can scan in and email if you are interested.
Dang it Lee, my Equus only goes back to October 1981. LOL
Can ya e-mail me a copy? Thanks.
--
down the spotted trails. . .
jane h. kilberg and her gang of spots (GOS)
member: ApHC, Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
editor/publisher: Appaloosa Network
Jane H. Kilberg
>Ignatzmom wrote:
>
>> His owners claim that he was timed in excess of 50 mph at Texas A&M
University;
>> we're still checking. Rowdy is a member of a rare line of horses called the
>> 'Kentucky Walker' (cut stuff) Rowdy himself is just 14.1 hands high, a dun
>> The person who was involved with the gait study at A&M was Dr. William
McMillan
>> -- according to my source he used a stopwatch to time the horse.
(snipped)
>Lee---he is Dr. Mac to us here at Texas A&M University! ;-) Actually
>his name is Dr. William MacMullan---he is a nationally known lameness
>expert in gaited horses. There are quite a few Peruvian Pasos in Texas
>that come to him for various and assundry lamenesses.
Yo Beth, maybe you can ask Dr. Mac about it?
Harriet Roberts
>Ignatzmom wrote:
>
>> OK, gang, I found the article. June 1980 Equus, title :"Check that
>> stopwatch -- here Comes Rowdy"...
>>
>> The meat of it is: "This violator (of the speed limit) is a horse and
>> you clock him at 51 mph. In Clintwood it could only be one horse-- a
>> small stallion named EZD's Falcons Rowdy -- and if his owners, the
>> Demetrises, are on the level, he's the fastest horse in the world.
>
>C'mon, does anybody really believe any horse can rack faster than race
>horses run?
Maybe he was clocked racking off a cliff. ;> A vertical drop of sufficient
depth might allow gravity to accelerate his speed to excess of 50mph.
Sorry, I couldn't resist that.
===============
Harriet Roberts
rob...@omega.mitre.org
Tom Stovall
>
> I do believe that it is possible for a racking horse to spurt in
> times well over 35mph,,a phenom could do what Rowdy was claimed to
Nope, compared to a gallop, any kind of rack is an inefficient gait in
terms of covering ground fast. After forward motion is established,
horses don't pull with their fronts, they push with their hinds. Big
pushes with both hinds at a gallop; a series of single pushes at a rack.
Think of a gallop as a bunch of low, two-footed leaps; a rack as a
bigger bunch of low, single-footed, much shorter, leaps.
[...]
>Some of the fastest pacers in the harness world are acually doing a >slightly broken pace (moving towards the rack)...
The fastest pacers in the world can't pace as fast as cheap TB's gallop.
It has to do with efficiency of gait.
>,,the efficiency of the rack is unparalleled..if you rode it,,you too >would believe
Comfort and efficiency are different breeds of pollywog. "Efficiency"
has to do with getting from here to there on a timely basis with minimal
caloric expenditure; "comfort" has to do with the rider's perception of
the trip and is unrelated to efficiency.
[...]
>,,,,maybe not 50mph,,but certainly faster than many, many horses can
> run...
If you ever find one you think can outrun a cheap TB, you can bust
South Texas.
Tom Stovall
AFA Journeyman Farrier
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
"It take's a hell of a fat canary to weigh 500 pounds."
Donna Guyton
Tom Stovall <sto...@wt.net> wrote in article <35D8C4...@wt.net>...
> Ignatzmom wrote:
>
>
> > I also found the flier used to promote Rowdy for breeding -- claiming
> >2 time World Grand Champion Speed Racking, Flat Shod...
>
> Where do they write races for racking horses?
>
Now that I think about it......we have *Timed Racking* classes at the local
shows. But, before anyone jumps to conclusions that these horses are
actually racking, they are pacing. It always confused me as to why they
don't call it *Timed Pacing.* Standardbreds are mostly run in this class.
I run one of my Standardbreds in this class from time to time......and I
know that they are not racking and the other contestants are also aware of
this and admit it fully. They have now opened a class for *true racking*
racing at the local shows and the fastest time yet is 26mph.
Donna Guyton
Guyton Stables, SC
Donna Guyton
Tom Stovall <sto...@wt.net> wrote in article <35D8C4...@wt.net>...
> Could it be that the racking horse's connections had an ulterior motive
> for trying to bullshit the troops? No le hace. On relating this story to
> a client, he said,
>
> "Tell them folks that if they think a racking horse ever drew fresh
> air on the day they he could outrun a decent Thoroughbred going
> anywhere from the length of a bale of hay to two miles, they need
> to gather up their racking horse and all the cash they can carry and
> come to Texas because they can goddam sure bust me."
They can bring 'em to SC too......would sure like to see one bust my
Standardbred Pacer. Shoot, I'd even like to see 'em race my previous
Welsh/Arab pony who would give my pacer a run for his money at the gallop
(that's why he was previously named *Bullet*).
Donna Guyton
Guyton Stables, SC
> Tom Stovall
> AFA Journeyman Farrier
> sto...@wt.net
> http://web.wt.net/~stovall
>
Donna Guyton
MClark6145 <mclar...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199808180257...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Some of the fastest pacers in the harness
> world are acually doing a slightly broken pace(moving towards the
rack),,the
> effieciency of the rack is unparalleled..if you rode it,,you too would
> believe,,,,maybe not 50mph,,but certainly faster than many, many horses
can
> run..
> Patricia
>
The gait you are referring to is a flying pace where both legs move
together on one side but the hind falls a half second to a second behind
the front. It is a slightly broken pace....but it is not in any way,
shape, or form a rack. The form of the horse is also different....head
down...stretched out....extended......Speed while forsaking form is not,
IMO, an acceptable rack especially when the foot patterns are not an even
1-2-3-4 cadence. A rack is a smooth gait but is extremely hard on the
horse. No horse should be racked for long periods of time at a high speed.
Donna Guyton
Harriet Roberts <hrob...@gremlin.mitre.org> wrote in article
<35D964...@gremlin.mitre.org>...
> Maybe he was clocked racking off a cliff. ;> A vertical drop of
sufficient
> depth might allow gravity to accelerate his speed to excess of 50mph.
>
> Sorry, I couldn't resist that.
> ===============
> Harriet Roberts
> rob...@omega.mitre.org
>
ROTFLMAO! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
Donna Guyton (who just had her laugh for today)
Guyton Stables, SC
wkambic
Deletia
> > I also found the flier used to promote Rowdy for breeding -- claiming
> >2 time World Grand Champion Speed Racking, Flat Shod...
>
> Where do they write races for racking horses?
The Tennessee Derby, Ten Mile, Tennessee (just down the road from me, not
far from the site of the Scopes Monkey Trial).
Bill Kambic
I'm not making this up!
Ignatzmom
race
>horses run?
No, I certainly don't. Just passing on this odd article for what it was worth,
on the subject of how fast a horse "can" rack.
> "His owners claim?"
Yeah, that is a problem <g> Not to mention the general character of his
owners, which I found out about later. Perhaps not shining examples of verity
and contact with terra firma.
>Dr. Mac is a retired professor at A&M, a good guy,
Sorry I got his name wrong, but you try to read 18 year old faded pencil in bad
handwriting to begin with. I am assured he is indeed one of the "good guys" if
he pays attention to things like lameness in gaited horses, since others seem
to figure they are all lame to begin with.
> I very seriously doubt that he would make any
>claims about the speed of any horse on the basis of timing with a hand
>held stopwatch.
This was the claim of the horse's owners, not me. Could someone find out if
this event ever even happened? Or was it a true, Virginia pipe dream?
>Could it be that the racking horse's connections had an ulterior motive
>for trying to bullshit the troops?
Nah, a horse owner stretching the truth to promote his horse? Never happen!!!
However, on a nice smooth trail, over a short distance, a good racker in a rack
will often outdistance a typical not-built for speed, not conditioned three
gaited horse in a gallop. This particular thing is not speculation. Been
there, done that.
Would I use a rack as a speed gait of preference? NO, not if I valued the
continued existence of my horse. The gait is hard, hard, hard on the horse,
not really so efficient as some claim. I think they time speed rackers at some
racking shows, but do not know.
Donna Guyton
> Would I use a rack as a speed gait of preference? NO, not if I valued
the
> continued existence of my horse. The gait is hard, hard, hard on the
horse,
> not really so efficient as some claim. I think they time speed rackers
at some
> racking shows, but do not know.
>
>
> Lee, Still riding after all these years.
>
The class at the shows are called *timed racking* which is actually pacing
Standardbreds that are disqualified if they break out into a
canter/gallop......or at least that's what it consist of around here. The
contestants are aware of what gait is actually allowed along with the
judges.
Tom Stovall
re: "Where do they write races for racking horses?..." -TS
>
> The Tennessee Derby, Ten Mile, Tennessee (just down the road from me,
> not far from the site of the Scopes Monkey Trial)...
Only in the three states of Tennessee!
Can you imagine a jock's making a living by specializing in racking
horse racing?
Is this for 3yos? Or, are they taking Lord Derby's name in vain? How
much money is up? Is it time trials, out of a starting gate, lap and
tap, flying start or what? Do they have folks making book in the crowd?
Is it one race? Or, do they break it down by age? Sex? Shoe weight? How
much weight to they carry?
Damn Bill, who'da thunk it?
> I'm not making this up!
Extra credit: Who was counsel for the defense in the Scopes trial?
--
Tom Stovall
AFA Journeyman Farrier
sto...@wt.net
http://web.wt.net/~stovall
"It take's a hell of a fat canary to weigh 500 pounds."
Madeline Rockwell
>
> Ignatzmom <igna...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <199808172012...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> stopwatch
> > -- here Comes Rowdy"
> > the level, he's the fastest horse in the world.
>
anything that moves ( autos, go carts, shovels{ this used to be big
among ski area employees}, Jack Russell terriers, cockroaches,turtles,
antique cars, crawling babies, etc.etc.), don't you think that anyone
with a racking horse that was faster than Secretariat would hace
challenged someone , sometime to a showdown?
( flame suit on)
They even race Arabs!
madeline
MClark6145
>together on one side but the hind falls a half second to a second behind
>the front.
I'm well aware that that is the gait I'm referring too...I agree that the
flying pace is Cheating when that type horse is entered against true racking
horses..I was just stating that the closer to a rack the gait gets the faster
the horse is capable of performing it..I hate that gait,,I want my horses
smooth, timed, and natural..racking..
>A rack is a smooth gait but is extremely hard on the
>horse. No horse should be racked for long periods of time at a high speed.
I don't agree with this,,,a saddlebred rack is difficult as it is often a
taught gait..a racking horses rack is as natural as a quarter horses trot..My
horses can rack all day with no fatigue. The single leg support pattern is
extremely easy on the horse's back, keeping the horse relaxed and happy. We
often ride a 20 mile loop in the mtns on the weekends,,and complete it racking
in 2 hrs,,,and this is at a very moderate speed,,with no stress to the
horses..We also field trial,,and rack all day long as dictated by the dogs..Now
the speed rack that is a rack and not a pace is strenuous,,but no more so than
any other demanding activity,,such as a jumper completing a set of
jumps,,etc...
Patricia Clark
Joel B Levin
Tom Stovall <sto...@wt.net> wrote:
:Extra credit: Who was counsel for the defense in the Scopes trial?
Clarence Darrow (against William Jennings Bryan).
(Not exactly cheating; I rented and re-watched INHERIT THE WIND a couple
weeks ago. It's not exactly cheating, because they changed the names.)
/JBL
--
Nets: levin/at/bbn.com | "There were sweetheart roses on Yancey Wilmerding's
or jbl/at/levin.mv.com| bureau that morning. Wide-eyed and distraught, she
or levinjb/at/gte.net | stood with all her faculties rooted to the floor."
ARS: KD1ON | -- S. J. Perelman
Deborah Stevenson
>wkambic wrote:
>re: "Where do they write races for racking horses?..." -TS
>>
>> The Tennessee Derby, Ten Mile, Tennessee (just down the road from me,
>> not far from the site of the Scopes Monkey Trial)...
>Only in the three states of Tennessee!
>Can you imagine a jock's making a living by specializing in racking
>horse racing?
>Is this for 3yos? Or, are they taking Lord Derby's name in vain?
I think that precedent was pretty much set by the Soapbox Derby, don't
you :-)?
>How
>much money is up? Is it time trials, out of a starting gate, lap and
>tap, flying start or what? Do they have folks making book in the crowd?
>Is it one race? Or, do they break it down by age? Sex? Shoe weight? How
>much weight to they carry?
I'm still trying to figure out the deal with the racing Belgians somebody
from Belgium posted about a few months ago. She got quizzed pretty
carefully and it didn't seem to be a language/terminology barrier
thing--people were racing Belgian draft horses. Now I'd believe that you
could find horses who'd rack faster than them :-).
Don't they race Shetlands/minis in harness, too?
>Damn Bill, who'da thunk it?
>
>> I'm not making this up!
>Extra credit: Who was counsel for the defense in the Scopes trial?
Pshaw. Hardly worthy of extra credit. Interestingly enough, his house
(a few blocks from my old Chicago residence) was within spitting distance of
where his venerable opponent made his famous "cross of gold" speech.
Happens I have a sneaking fondness for both sides on this one, and I
think the plaintiff's attorney had his reputation rather skewed by this
particular outing--his previous record is actually damned progressive.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Who likes the reporter best of all in Champaign, IL, USA
CMNewell
wrote:
>Extra credit: Who was counsel for the defense in the Scopes trial?
Wasn't it the same guy who defended Leopold and Loeb?
CMNewell, DVM
*****
Surgeon General of rec.eq Bogbash party
Recipient of the Bogbash anti-Equus favorite vet award
The Chuck of Eq
Laura Friedman
>
> ( flame suit on)
>
Good! Hehe.
> They even race Arabs!
>
Yep. And the window's open if anyone here wants to match their racing
TB against any backyard arab in my 'hood for 25 miles or up.
Laura & Squiggles (priming for the big event)
cdho...@highland.net
sto...@wt.net wrote:
>
> Is this for 3yos? Or, are they taking Lord Derby's name in vain? How
> much money is up? Is it time trials, out of a starting gate, lap and
> tap, flying start or what? Do they have folks making book in the crowd?
> Is it one race? Or, do they break it down by age? Sex? Shoe weight? How
> much weight to they carry?
>
> Damn Bill, who'da thunk it?
hi Tom....
Th Tenn Derby is a non sanctioned ....multi division series of horse races
held down in "oh so progressive" Meigs County....Scopes Monkey Trial and Home
of Watts Bar Nuclear Plant <G>
anything can be raced....gaited horses ...ponies....saddlebreds...QH's
no vet checks or humane societies that I know of...it is always more
interesting at the finish line......it ain't the running that's hard..it's
the getting them stopped....
racing and drunk rednecks...always a fight guarenteed to break out<G>
hey..that's why I don't have TV...we make our own entertainment in these
parts...
--
Tamara in TN
visit us at http://www.horsecorral.com/cdhoward.htm
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
wkambic
"nicked" it! (Thieving wench!<g>)
Buts, she has given you about as good a description as you can get. Real down
home country entertainment!
Bill Kambic
Who knows Jeff Foxworthy is largely telling the truth.
Madeline Rockwell
>
> >
> Yep. And the window's open if anyone here wants to match their racing
> TB against any backyard arab in my 'hood for 25 miles or up.
I'm smarter than to rise to that bait. I was referring to the pari-
mutuel, on track 6 furlong type arab racing...
madeline
>
Terry von Gease
>wkambic wrote:
>re: "Where do they write races for racking horses?..." -TS
>>
>> The Tennessee Derby, Ten Mile, Tennessee (just down the road from me,
>> not far from the site of the Scopes Monkey Trial)...
>Only in the three states of Tennessee!
>Can you imagine a jock's making a living by specializing in racking
>horse racing?
>Is this for 3yos? Or, are they taking Lord Derby's name in vain? How
>much money is up? Is it time trials, out of a starting gate, lap and
>tap, flying start or what? Do they have folks making book in the crowd?
>Is it one race? Or, do they break it down by age? Sex? Shoe weight? How
>much weight to they carry?
>Damn Bill, who'da thunk it?
>
>> I'm not making this up!
>Extra credit: Who was counsel for the defense in the Scopes trial?
Clarrence Darrow. Better yet who, besides the definitive blathering
idiot William Jennings Bryan, represented the prosecution?
--
Terry A proper signature should sum up one's entire
philosophy and, at the same time, cause anyone who
reads it to question everything in which they
believe.
Ignatzmom
quarter horses trot..My
>horses can rack all day with no fatigue.
Yes, the gait can be natural, and not trained in. Yes that type of gait is
less stressful than a trained in, shoe dependent gait. However, "no fatigue"
is doubtuful -- no horse goes all day in any gait without fatigue.
>The single leg support pattern is
>extremely easy on the horse's back, keeping the horse relaxed and happy
Nope, the hollow position that is required for the rack and the up and down
flex at the lumbo-sacral junction is hard on the horse's back. Over time it
can and will cause impingement of the spiny processes on the tops of the
vertebrae, ossifications at the l/s (hunter's bumps are seen on almost all
rackers) and eventually lead to some nerve damage which can then lead to odd
lamenesses in the hindquarters.
>We
>often ride a 20 mile loop in the mtns on the weekends,,and complete it
>racking
>in 2 hrs,,,and this is at a very moderate speed,,with no stress to the
>horses.
Sorry, there is considerable stress to the horses, you just aren't seeing it.
the Icelanders have a better way -- they tolt all day, but ride one horse, lead
two, and switch off so that each horse has a chance to recover at some other
gait (usually a trot) in between tolt/rack periods. This way the tolters last
longer with less probability of back problems.
>.Now
>the speed rack that is a rack and not a pace is strenuous,,but no more so
>than
>any other demanding activity,,such as a jumper completing a set of
>jumps,
Nope, not really. It is kept up for a longer period of time than the on foot
landing on the set of jumps. Any time one foot is taking all the load of the
horse's weight and forwad motion (pole vaulting on the front legs, pushing off
with the hind) stress is more than if there are two or more in contact with
the ground.
I like to ride a rack, it is fun and a real kick. But, all my rackers have
also done something else in between rack times (usually a fox trot, sometimes a
running walk) to keep their backs from "fixing' in the hollow position and to
spare their legs. ( A reason why the last one made it to 27 with little
arthritis and no hunter's bump?) No getting around the fact that the gait is
harder on the horse than on the person riding him.
MClark6145
>is doubtuful -- no horse goes all day in any gait without fatigue.
When your horse is trained as an endurance competitor, and as a serious field
trial mount, (as ours are)the amount of fatigue that these horses experience is
no greater than any other type of horse
.>Nope, the hollow position that is required for the rack >
A horse that is trained in NH methods does not have this hollow postition in
the rack,,the horse will round and be supple just as they are in a
Runningwalk..That is old show training that causes the hollowness,,dressage and
NH create a supple horse that can rack with ease..
>Sorry, there is considerable stress to the horses, you just aren't seeing it.
>
I don't think you know anything about the condition my horses are in. We are
serious distance riders, and our horses are conditioned and trained
appropriately. They are trained with NH,,they can all be ridden in a
halter,move softly and supple,,with rounded neck and back(no stiffness). Our
racking horses can canter as well, they are shod naturally on normal angles.
Our horses are very sound and they are happy in their work.
Patricia Clark
wkambic
flat walk, you have to spend a fair amount of time (like 45 min. a day for a fair
number of days at a working walk). Many ex-show horses do not carry the weight of
their own head (they are used to the rider doing so with that big bit). You must
strengthen the back muscles so that they can gait without hollowing out the back.
A good flat walk (4-5 mph) can be obtained in a reasonable time. A conditioned
horse can do this for a lot of hours (as much as 12, with rest intervals). In the
runningwalk (and, I suspect, a fast rack) the head has a tendency to come up. I
don't know why (mechanics of movement, way of training, etc.). It might even be a
side effect of the use of powerful curb bits (as the rider attempts a higher degree
of collection at the higher speed the leverage action of the bit raises the head).
But I have even seen this in a TWH in a snaffle (although not as dramatically).
As speed increases, so does energy required. I was taught early on that to double
the speed will require a four-fold increase in energy expended. I'm sure one of
our endurance types can comment on whether or not I was correctly informed.
A horse that performs a single foot gait because of genetics is probably not much
behind the power curve when compared to a horse that trots for the same reason. If
the single foot gait is trained in, I would expect a loss of gait efficiency. I
would expect to see the same result in a gaited horse taught to trot.
Conditioning is very important to gait quality (rack or runningwalk or tolt or
trot). I think a lot of the "leather and iron" solutions found in the saddle seat
world come from the fact that it is tough to properly condition a horse on stacks
or in big shoes (usually with accompanying long toes). Horses in that type of foot
gear have a lot of trouble making turns and are usually exercised in a series of
straight lines (go the length of the barn, stop, turn; go the length of the barn,
stop, turn; go the length...). They are not turned out in big shoes, stacks, etc.
It is my personal opinion that the lateral gait is, perhaps, slightly less
efficient that the trot, but permits longer time in the saddle for the rider as the
fatigue factor is dramatically lower. This lower fatigue level SHOULD result in
improved rider performance (and improved horse performance) in those disciplines
where time in the saddle is important. But there are, clearly, a bunch of
variables here.
When the matter has been fully hashed out, I'll stick with my Walkers!<g>
Bill Kambic
Smooth is gooooooooooood.
Ignatzmom
horses are in
True, I do not know what their P and R rates are or their blood counts or any
of that sort of thing. Does not mean that the rack is any easier on them than
on any other horse doing the gait (from the Tripple of the Boerperd to the tolt
of the Icelandic to the Largo of the Paso Fino to the Tongan Singlefooter, for
that matter)
>Our horses are very sound and they are happy in their work.
>
>
Good for them. And how old are they and what is the condition of their spines,
legs, etc? Any sidebone, ringbone, navicular "changes" curb, arthrosis of any
type going on? Any radiographs taken?
> They are trained with NH,,they can all be ridden in a
>halter,move softly and supple,,with rounded neck and back(no stiffness).
That they can rack in a halter and turn sharply I have no doubt. ( Any horse
that is trained in a reasonble manner should be able to do that.)That their
backs are truly round and their necks used with no dip in front of the withers
I doubt strongly. No horse that I have seen in the rack, of any breed, in any
part of the world uses a rounded back position to rack. There is always a
hollow, no matter what method is used to train them. It is part of the gait.
>Our
>racking horses can canter as well, they are shod naturally on normal
>angles.
Well, I hope so, if you are using them for endurance! If you are screwing
around with their angles to get the gait you are really not helping the
soundness situation at all. If they can canter as well, do you use the gait?
Do they four beat or do a true canter?
>the horse will round and be supple just as they are in a
>Runningwalk
Um, er, horses do not truly round in a runningwalk, either.
>.That is old show training that causes the hollowness,,dressage and
>NH create a supple horse that can rack with ease..
Nope, it is the nature of the gait to be hollow (vs a truly round horse, one in
a good passage or piaffe, for example) At most, with decent training you
might reach neutral/hollow in a rack. Good dressage work is not possible
beyond a certain point (pre-training) in a racking horse because the goal of
dressage is true collection (roundness) and a horse that is round
-will-not-rack. What you get with NH and dressage is a horse that is less
stiff, less fear/flight oriented, but still hollow, if he is racking. He will
probably expend less energy in the gait than one with the "old bad" show
training, but he will still be using the most inefficient (in terms of energy
expended, stress on legs/spine/ various joints) gait available.
But he will be fun to ride!
MClark6145
>spines,
>legs, etc? Any sidebone, ringbone, navicular "changes" curb, arthrosis of
>any
>type going on? Any radiographs taken?
We have horses from 1 yr to 32 yrs...They are all sound and fit after years of
riding..No back problems, no leg problems,,sound as they can be,,worst thing we
ever had was a stone bruise!lol They are vetted regularly, radiographs as
well,,,these horses are clean..
>No horse that I have seen in the rack, of any breed, in any
>part of the world uses a rounded back position to rack. There is always a
>hollow,
That is a pretty strong statement,,to say that all racking types have hollow
backs..I do know that our horses,,walking and racking,,are working in a rounded
manner,,necks arched and rounded,,with no hollow(I do know that hollow you are
speaking of) in front of the neck,,,my mare in fact likes to stretch her neck
out almost flat when she racks on, maintaining perfect gait,,without big
efforts at collection and high head carriage..
> If you are screwing
>around with their angles to get the gait you are really not helping the
>soundness situation at all. If they can canter as well, do you use the gait?
>
>Do they four beat or do a true canter?
nobody said anything about screwing with angles,,I like my horses shod
naturally,,on a natural wear pattern,,these horses are shod in the manner that
they were born,,no messing around in my barn..
Yes, they canter well,,,they perform a rolling 3 beat canter and can extend
into a hand gallop..Just because a horse racks does not exclude it from
performing all natural gaits.
>Um, er, horses do not truly round in a runningwalk, either.
Well,,that's not exactly what we are learning about achieving a good RW now is
it?? Roundness and suppleness are absolutely necessary for a good RW..That is
why dressage methods are beginning to have radical effects on stiff
horses..Gaiting does not preclude the horses from roundness,,a horse with
strong gait modifiers and timing will gait regardless,,suppling and rounding
will only enhance the natural gaits
..> because the goal of
>dressage is true collection (roundness) and a horse that is round
>-will-not-rack.
That is simply not true in all cases...
and yes,,they are all fun to ride!!
Patricia Clark
PITZERCP
wacked---<vbg>Carol
ow I can fold all this back up and stuff it in a drawer for another 20 years.
BTW anyone wanting a copy, I can scan in and email if you are interested. I
also have a personal letter from Patty McNutt about Demetris and the horse,
parts of which are even in standard English.
Ignatzmom
and fit after years
>of
>riding
Good for them -- hope you don't mean you have been riding the one year old <g>
That means they are in good shape, probably well -built (good straight legs?
Bet so) But it does not mean that the rack, if done as the exclusive gait, will
not have deleterious effects on horses. I imagine yours do other things,
frequently. (and get to play on their own, too.)
>That is a pretty strong statement,,to say that all racking types have hollow
>backs
Yes, it is. But it is based on lots of research, consultation with
biomenchanics of gait experts ( Dr.Deb Bennett, Dr. Kent Vasco among others)
and observation.
>I do know that our horses,,walking and racking,,are working in a rounded
>manner,,necks arched and rounded,,with no hollow
Say they are neutral and I will buy it. You can have an nice rounded, arched
neck and still be hollow somewhere in the spine, lack strong use of abdominals,
lack lowering of croup from downward flexion of L/S junction, increased flexion
of joint articulations in the hind quarters, full (rounded) L. dorsii and
other aspects of a truly round, truly collected horse.
>,my mare in fact likes to stretch her neck
>out almost flat when she racks on, maintaining perfect gait,
Yes, she is traveling neutral to hollow.
>,without big
>efforts at collection and high head carriage.
.
Collection is not high head carriage, high action or shortened stride -- those
can be byproducts of it, but are not the point of the exercise or the
definition of the state.
I never accused you of screwing around with angles -- that was somehow
misconstrued. I was actually complimenting you for not doing that while still
getting the gait you want. Angle adjustments make for unsound horses and are
not conducive to longevity in the endurance game.
>Yes, they canter well,,,they perform a rolling 3 beat c
Good, that means they are not as stiff as many that rack.
>Just because a horse racks does not exclude it from
>performing all natural gaits.
>
True -- most of mine have done a bunch of them, including a hard trot. And I
let them!
>Well,,that's not exactly what we are learning about achieving a good RW now
>is
>it?? Roundness and suppleness are absolutely necessary for a good RW
No, relative to hollow and stiff, a neutral and more supple horse will do a
better running walk. If you truly collect and round that runningwalking horse
he will hard trot.
>That is
>why dressage methods are beginning to have radical effects on stiff
>horses.
Yes, making them as supple as they can be is a good goal. Dressage (the basic
stuff) does that. I have been using it for years for that purpose in many
types of gaited horses. However, going beyond the basics to true collection,
(which is not possible for many due to conformation -- another kettle of eels)
will not help the running walk, but will get rid of it. There is a reason the
old dressage masters thought of ambling horses as defective -- they could not
be made to truly collect. (the end point of classical dressage is collection --
true, rounded, total collection).
>Gaiting does not preclude the horses from roundness,,a horse with
>strong gait modifiers and timing will gait regardless,
Wrong. A horse will not do certain (especially lateral sequence like the rack)
gaits round. The body determines the timing, and when the body becomes round,
the symmetrical gait of choice will be the trot. Why do you suppose the
collected walk is so hard for horses (non gaited) to perform? Extra credit,
why do good dressage trainers do most work at the trot?
"Gait modifiers" sounds like Mr. Eadie -- am I correct? Explain the role of
these things in: 1. baby Tbreds that pace, then "grow out" of the gait. 2.
Adult Hanoverians that pace at the "collected walk" with a rider. 3. Pacers
that learn to hard trot after work over poles. 4. stepping pacers that learn to
hard trot with simple work on rounding their bodies.
>suppling and rounding
>will only enhance the natural gaits
Suppling sure will. Rounding (in a small increment) from stiff hollow to
neutral/ hollow up to neutral/semi round will certainly help. Anything beyond
that is counterproductive if you want to keep the gait. (And I certainly do)
Even Paso Finos in the fino, which is the ultimate example of a lateral gaited
horse doing something that looks "collected" and round, are not -- they are
hollow under the rider's seat. You can't have it both ways, gait and true
collection.
You can, however, have it less hollow than the mess seen in the show ring in
"gaited" classes. There are degrees of hollow, just as there are degrees of
round -- stray toward the middle (neutral) and you can keep your gait and have
a more pleasant horse to ride.
MClark6145
>a more pleasant horse to ride.
I see what you are saying,,working toward that level of rounding that is
comfortable for the horse yet not pushing him to the point where going
completely square is his only option. Your correct in your statements of horses
being worked into different gaits,,even horses of different breeds,,the effects
of training can be amazing..I guess we were saying the same thing in different
ways..We strive for softness, and as much roundness as the horse can muster
without losing gait,,I just hate that term because nongaited people will assume
that if the gait is "lost" that easily then it must not be natural to begin
with.. The roundness that we have achieved has resulted in dramatic results
when compared to conventionally trained gaiteds...And yes I encourage our
horses to use all their natural gaits,,walk, dog walk, flat walk, fox trot,
rack, RW, canter, gallop,,and on a rare occasion I'll even allow them to trot
uphill<VBG> but by an large they maintain the rack as their gait of
preference,,,even the 1 yr old(in the pasture of course<G>) racks often at
liberty,,in between leaping and misc..gaits..lol..I am with you,,natural is
best and whatever our horses need to do for their comfort and longeavity is
what they get...Thank you for this informative discussion!!
Patricia
Mainesrus
>We
>often ride a 20 mile loop in the mtns on the weekends,,and complete it
>racking
>in 2 hrs,,,and this is at a very moderate speed,,with no stress to the
>horses..
Ignatzmom (Lee) writes the other side of the arguement...
>Nope, the hollow position that is >required for the rack and the up and >down
>flex at the lumbo-sacral junction is >hard on the horse's back. Over time >it
>can and will cause impingement of >the spiny processes on the tops of the
>vertebrae, ossifications at the l/s >(hunter's bumps are seen on almost >all
>rackers) and eventually lead to some >nerve damage which can then lead to
>odd
>lamenesses in the hindquarters.
Reva, who is contemplating buying a TWH who also racks nicely...is simply going
to crawl off in a corner and expire of terminal confusion...Okay...I can see
the orthopaedic points here just based on the way the horse's back and legs are
used in the rack...but...here's the question: done in moderation with plenty of
RW/flatwalking in between (assuming good footing and stuff)...is this still
liable to damage the horse?
TIA, Reva (about ready to just get my knees replaced and buy a warmblood...just
joking...)
wkambic
trot, to a horse bred to it. If you want to go tear-assing down the road in a
speed rack or flying pace or some other high speed lateral 4 beat gait then YES,
that is going to be stressful. Moral: If you want to go tear-assing down the
road, do it at the canter! (Truman, you once wrote a real nice piece on the joy of
the TWH gallop. Could you please repeat same?).
Bill Kambic
Query: would the speed rack be more stressful that an extended trot?
Laura Friedman
>
> >We
> >often ride a 20 mile loop in the mtns on the weekends,,and complete it
> >racking
> >in 2 hrs,,,and this is at a very moderate speed,,with no stress to the
> >horses..
Two hourse for 20 miles is real quick. You'd come close to top-tenning
in a 25 mile endurance race at that clip.
Laura & Squigs
Catja Pafort
>Ignatzmom (Lee) writes the other side of the arguement...
>>Nope, the hollow position that is required for the rack and the up and down
>>flex at the lumbo-sacral junction is hard on the horse's back. Over time >it
>>can and will cause impingement of the spiny processes on the tops of the
>>vertebrae, ossifications at the l/s (hunter's bumps are seen on almost all
>>rackers) and eventually lead to some nerve damage which can then lead to
>>odd lamenesses in the hindquarters.
>Reva, who is contemplating buying a TWH who also racks nicely...is simply going
>to crawl off in a corner and expire of terminal confusion...Okay...I can see
>the orthopaedic points here just based on the way the horse's back and legs are
>used in the rack...but...here's the question: done in moderation with plenty of
>RW/flatwalking in between (assuming good footing and stuff)...is this still
>liable to damage the horse?
Well, I'd say it's right along with jumping or collection for a
dressage horse. A little, with proper preparation and decent warmup
won't hurt. If a gaited horse is offering the movement (otherwise it's
not 'gaited', it's just been forced to move in a matter unnatural to
him) and the gaiting doesn't come from being stiff, overexited, or
having an aching back, then I don't see a problem with riding a gaited
horse. Hey, some of my best friends ride gaited horses! (One of them,
anyway <G>)
And since you're not going to ride him just to show off, but for
*medical reasons* I find it entirely justifiable.
Catja
--
Catja Pafort
<http://www.aber.ac.uk/~cap96>
"Reality is for those who lack imagination."
(CMNewell on rec.eq)
Ignatzmom
>going
>>to crawl off in a corner and expire of terminal confusion...
No, please don't! You can rack in moderation and not cause the horrid
problems mentioned above. (by me, chief curmudgeon) I have had for many years
(she is now 31) a dear mare who racked when asked, did most of her work in a
fox trot, or flat walk and runningwalked on occasion. Other than some
arthritis from an old injury, she is sound.
Buy that TWH who racks, you'll have a blast! The best of two very good things
in one package. Just, try not to be doing those 20 mile rack races on him.
Suebaru2
Query: would the speed rack be more stressful that an extended trot?
>>
IF the horse was hollowed out, head up, and flat-out (you use tear-assing...
I'm not sure I know that word..heehee), then yes, I think it would be more
stressful on the HORSE to rack at that speed than do the extended trot. I had
a QH/TB mare who I trotted most of my training-level X-country courses on when
I evented her.. that's how great her extended trot was. The X-trot requires
the horse to USE that back end and thrust. The rack (speed-rack, anyway)
requires a tenser back.
NOW... if you want to talk about stress to the rider... the opposite applies.
Ever try to ride the extended trot for a long time.. it's tiring. (I love it,
but it is tiring)
Sue
wkambic
Easttennesseespeak.<g>
Tear-assing: proceeding down the road at a high rate of speed (generally in a
motor vehicle but occasionally on a horse, especially a gaited horse), usually
accompanied with lots of hooting and hollering.
Actually, tear-assing can be a lot of fun. But I don't recommend it if you've
been drinking!<G>
Bill Kambic
Donna Guyton
wkambic <wka...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<35DDC04C...@ix.netcom.com>...
Now I know what I've been doing all these years.....especially in crowds
where everyone thinks their racking horse is the fastest. I even saw a
drunk fall off one night at a high speed....but luckily he wasn't injured
due to being too plastered to stiffened up before the fall. It was over
before he knew what hit him. Poor ole feller! :-) The next time I'm on a
ride I'll know to ask.....Now, who's ready to do some tear-assing
(listening to the hoots and hollers in my mind) !?!
Donna Guyton
Guyton Stables, SC
Laura Friedman
>
> Actually, tear-assing can be a lot of fun. But I don't recommend it if you've
> been drinking!<G>
Yes. You should always drive sensibly if you've been drinking <g>.
Laura
Mainesrus
>
>No, please don't! You can rack in moderation and not cause the horrid
>problems mentioned above. (by me, chief curmudgeon) I have had for many
>years
>(she is now 31) a dear mare who racked when asked, did most of her work in a
>fox trot, or flat walk and runningwalked on occasion. Other than some
>arthritis from an old injury, she is sound.
>
>Buy that TWH who racks, you'll have a blast! The best of two very good
>things
>in one package. Just, try not to be doing those 20 mile rack races on him.
>Lee, Still riding after all these years.
will wait 2 weeks for his money--I'll still pay the IRS a cut, but I'd like to
avoid the "early withdrawal penalties" from the bank).
I really don't feel like the rack is hard on this horse, he offers it
naturally...the speed ranges from a "slow gait" to about extended trot speed,
if that's any help (figure 16hh horse)...I just liked the rack as much as his
RW...but didn't want to hurt the gelding by doing the gait.
I used to ride endurance, I ain't doing 20 miles at ANY one gait (rode a
foxtrotting Ayrab, btw...used to come up on and pass other riders who'd nearly
fall off their horses goin' "what IS that horse doing??"<g>
Best, Reva
wkambic
> I really don't feel like the rack is hard on this horse, he offers it
> naturally...the speed ranges from a "slow gait" to about extended trot speed,
> if that's any help (figure 16hh horse)...I just liked the rack as much as his
> RW...but didn't want to hurt the gelding by doing the gait.
Ride the horse. If he is giving you a smooth ride at a modest speed with no sign
of undue stress, you do not have a problem! Whether the gait is a rack or walk
(running or flat) or foxtrot or tolt or steppin' pace or some other single foot
gait for which a name has yet to be invented the horse will tell you whether or
not he is suffering undue stress. I had a gelding that could carry my big butt in
slow rack/flatwalk for hours on end. He would put his head down and just move on
down the road. We were definitely not tear-assing, but would set himself in a
cadence and never changed. I am sometimes really sorry I sold him!
The thing about Walkers is that few possess anything like a pure gait anymore.
Particularly if they are out of a Big Name Show Line what passes for a "rack"
could be anything. Even really experienced TWH people sometimes will get into
fist fights over the gait some horse is doing.
The bottom line for you, Reva, is that you are about to aquire what appears to be
a healthy, serviceably sound, smooth horse. And that sounds to me like what you
want. All of this talk about lateral gaits being more demanding (read more
stressful) than a diagonal gait is mostly theoretical. Ride the horse. If you
have been out for a while and he looks tired, take a break. If you get to a rest
time on a ride and he does not look tired, take a break anyway. Ride the horse.
Enjoy the ride.
Bill Kambic
"Never miss a chance to rest your horse." Texas Bix Bender
Mainesrus
>to be
>a healthy, serviceably sound, smooth horse. And that sounds to me like what
>you
>want
Yep...called the guy tonight and left a message saying we want the
gelding...hoping things work out on the "negotiatin'" end...he'll be coming
"home" around early October when the barn is done being rehabbed (not like it
isn't serviceable now, and actually nice...but, guy is gutting out 11 stalls)
The whole "yer gonna cripple yer horse by doing something he seems to do pretty
naturally" thing rattled me a bit...tho' a few folks told me that I'd cripple
my ayrab's hocks by letting her foxtrot...
Thanks,
Reva
Jorene Downs
Laura Friedman wrote in message <6rkh1l$j...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
Gotta find that autopilot button on the horse ...
or make that horse the designated driver ... ;)
- - - - -
Jorene * with a new e-mail address: Jor...@CEOates.com *
just moseyin' down the trail
from the CEOates Ranch in California ... ;)
http://www.CEOates.com
meet other rec.eq posters on:
http://www.psnw.com/~jcdowns/RecEq/RecEq.html
Catja Pafort
>Patricia Clark (I think?) posted:
>>a racking horses rack is as natural as a quarter horses trot..My horses can rack all day with no fatigue.
>
>Yes, the gait can be natural, and not trained in. Yes that type of gait is
>less stressful than a trained in, shoe dependent gait. However, "no fatigue"
>is doubtuful -- no horse goes all day in any gait without fatigue.
One of the explanations a study at the Vet School of Hannover, Germany
gave for different gaits was effectiveness. Seemingly a horse tries to
move with maximum efficiency, and therefor changes from walk to trot
to canter when he wants to move faster instead of just increasing the
gait. A rack (or trotting race) breaks that pattern beyond where the
horse would naturally move. (That's not condemning all gaited horses
into the ground, just offering an explanation.)
>>The single leg support pattern is
>>extremely easy on the horse's back, keeping the horse relaxed and happy
>
>Nope, the hollow position that is required for the rack and the up and down
>flex at the lumbo-sacral junction is hard on the horse's back. Over time it
>can and will cause impingement of the spiny processes on the tops of the
>vertebrae, ossifications at the l/s (hunter's bumps are seen on almost all
>rackers) and eventually lead to some nerve damage which can then lead to odd
>lamenesses in the hindquarters.
What, exactly *is* a hunter's bump? I know what it looks like, I'd
just like to know what it IS.
Catja Pafort
>Yes, making them as supple as they can be is a good goal. Dressage (the basic
>stuff) does that. I have been using it for years for that purpose in many
>types of gaited horses. However, going beyond the basics to true collection,
>(which is not possible for many due to conformation -- another kettle of eels)
>will not help the running walk, but will get rid of it. There is a reason the
>old dressage masters thought of ambling horses as defective -- they could not
>be made to truly collect. (the end point of classical dressage is collection --
>true, rounded, total collection).
I have never come across a truly gaited horse being trained in
dressage. By now I tend towards the opinion that there are two kinds
of horses that gait: one because they have a natural tendency towards
that gait, will show it freely without influence of the rider (I once
rode an icelandic like that, and I haven't got a clue about aids) and
the other because they are stiff and tense OR the rider is hindering
their natural gaits (w/t/c). It may well be that most of the horses
dressage riders come across are of the second type - I used to ride a
mare with a back problem who would, when exited on hard ground, for
want of a better word, rack. (She didn't hollow, btw, she rather
rounded her back and fixed it in a rounded state) Due to the
circumstances under which this 'gaiting' occurred, the last thing I'd
have done would be to encourage her.
More common in WBs is a tendency towards pace - a byproduct of tense
backs and uncalm minds.
Jana explained to me the usual procedure to get a correctly toelting
Icelandic (she just moved, so it may be a while before she comes back
to rec.eq):
First, supple the horse in walk, trot and canter. Trot work is
prescribed *especially* for horses with a strong tendency towards
toelt - because a tense toelt is going to shift towards pace and then
you're in BIG trouble. Only after the horse is confirmed in the
basics, a working toelt is introduced. (Hope I got that right)
D.Melvina Harris
> What, exactly *is* a hunter's bump? I know what it looks like, I'd
> just like to know what it IS.
Me too, so I looked it up:
Merck's Veterinary Manual lists it under "Sacroiliac Injury"
(subluxation, strain, arthrosis, hunter's bumps). Acute & severe strain
of the sacroiliac ligaments is associated with a history of injury & of
severe pain in the pelvic or sacroiliac region, often with marked
hindlimb lameness. Subacute or chronic sacroiliac strain is low-grade
damage that causes typical back soreness.
[...]
"Chronic cases continue to show poor performance, despite rest &
anti-inflamatory medication."
Melvina
cdho...@highland.net
"D.Melvina Harris" <melv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Catja Pafort wrote:
> > What, exactly *is* a hunter's bump? I know what it looks like, I'd
> > just like to know what it IS.
in gaited horses we are thrust back by the horses impulsion.....we have no
trot to throw us forward...
so unless the rider pays attention (or cares... most don't) our weight is
shifted to the rear of the saddles.esp. in the horrid cutback saddles...over
time w/o additional padding..the hard knots occur....we usually don't call
them "hunter bumps " in the South however....(I don't think there is a clever
name for them...you just don't buy a riding horse with them).
now it will occur in other breeds esp. when they have been ridden in a too
small saddle( you know....hanging over the back of the Western saddle)
pride will keep a lot of people from admitting that they no longer fit that
beloved saddle...
--
Tamara in TN
visit us at http://www.horsecorral.com/cdhoward.htm
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D.Melvina Harris
> > > What, exactly *is* a hunter's bump? I know what it looks like, I'd
> > > just like to know what it IS.
Tamara in TN <cdho...@highland.net> wrote:
> In less medical terms<G>....
> in gaited horses we are thrust back by the horses impulsion.....we have no
> trot to throw us forward...
> so unless the rider pays attention (or cares... most don't) our weight is
> shifted to the rear of the saddles.esp. in the horrid cutback saddles...over
> time w/o additional padding..the hard knots occur....we usually don't call
> them "hunter bumps " in the South however....(I don't think there is a clever
> name for them...you just don't buy a riding horse with them).
>
> now it will occur in other breeds esp. when they have been ridden in a too
> small saddle( you know....hanging over the back of the Western saddle)
>
> pride will keep a lot of people from admitting that they no longer fit that
> beloved saddle...
Are the lumps you're referring to under the back of the saddle, like in
the lumbar area of the spine? I thought Hunter's bumps were found at
the high point of the rump (sacroiliac), not under the saddle. I wonder
if they're the same thing and perhaps only called Hunters bumps when
they're in the SI area?
In any case, it sounds pretty uncomfortable for the poor horse. I would
think they would be lame from back pain due to muscle soreness from poor
fitting saddles long before such structural damage would occur.
I'm not trying to argue your point, just thinking out loud. I'd really
like a clarification on this.
Thanks,
Melvina
WVK13
>the high point of the rump (sacroiliac), not under the saddle.
I am going through this with my 3 yr. old Tb. right now. A hunters bump is
caused by a pulled ligament in the sacro illiac. If it is not caught early and
treated with stall rest for up to 6 months it will turn into a hunters bump.
Fortunately we noticed a slight short stridedness in this filly and were able
to avoid the hunters bump appearance. My vet described it as being much like a
bowed tendon as far as long term affects if treated properly, the horse can
return to work without further problems even with a visiable bump. If there are
other opinions on this out there I sure would like to hear them.
Vk
Ignatzmom
horses of other types that have been racking. The motion of the gait causes a
strong up and down flexion of the lumbo-sacral joint, with attendant little
"tears" in the muscle that attaches spine to pelvis. (same sort of up and down
motion occurs in a not very supple jumper, and in broodmares giving birth, so
they both show the same little "peak" over the joint.)
There is also a condition that shows up in horses ridden in cut back (supper
flat, saddle seat design) saddles where a vertebra farther forward in the back
becomes irritated and enlarged from weight bearing down on that part of the
spine. This can also happen in bad fitting western saddles, same reason. Not
the same as a true hunter's bump. Similar results, however, in the long run.
Phantom lameness in the hind legs, and general problems with the back, as
mentioned earlier.
A condition to be avoided, if possible.
Ignatzmom
>of horses that gait: one because they have a natural tendency towards
>that gait, will show it freely without influence of the rider (I once
>rode an icelandic like that, and I haven't got a clue about aids) and
>the other because they are stiff and tense OR the rider is hindering
>their natural gaits
Actually, the ones that do it "naturally" have the same sorts of things going
on in their bodies as the ones that do it from bad riding. Chief is a certain
degree of ventroflexion, somewhere in the spine.
>I used to ride a
>mare with a back problem who would, when exited on hard ground, for
>want of a better word, rack
I would love to know what she was really doing. She was no doubt hollow in her
neck if round in her back. > Due to the
>circumstances under which this 'gaiting' occurred, the last thing I'd
>have done would be to encourage her.
Yes, she sounds like she was really beating herself up with it, whatever it
was. (BTW a rack is the same as a hreina tolt)
I find your friend Jane's explanation of how to tolt an Icelandic interesting.
They need the suppleness to keep pure in the other gaits, so it makes sense
that they train them in that first. But to tolt, all it usually takes is to
lean back a bit and raise their heads (making them hollow).
Then tolt on! Even in pacey ones, it is not that hard to get the true tolt,
just takes speeding them out of the pig pace and keeping them in an "upside
down" frame. > Only after the horse is confirmed in the
>basics, a working toelt is introduced.
Makes sense, since a tolt will screw up the diagonal gaits and the canter if
the horse does it to the exclusion of those other ways of moving. Icelanders
are the smartest people I know with horses that rack -- they insist that they
do something else, thereby preserving their backs. Don't see many hunter's
bumps on Icelandics for this reason.
Now, any idea on how to get a flying pace? (It is not my idea of a safe riding
practice, but it works.)
Terri Ferrier
The QH we had kept for my husbands boss had a hunters bump. It was
only noticeable after he lost weight when the grass disappeared during
the drought of '96. It was a soft swelling on top of his rump that
was no longer visible once he gained back his weight. Our vet
diagnosed it as a hunters bump and gave us all kinds of info on it.
Technically, it's a subluxation of the sacroiliac joint.. In Flips
case, it was probably the reason he was no longer raced. It was not
severe at all and caused him no problems although the vet advised any
kind of jumping, barrels, etc.
To reply - remove the !!! in the return address
Catja Pafort
>Merck's Veterinary Manual lists it under "Sacroiliac Injury"
>(subluxation, strain, arthrosis, hunter's bumps). Acute & severe strain
>of the sacroiliac ligaments is associated with a history of injury & of
>severe pain in the pelvic or sacroiliac region, often with marked
>hindlimb lameness. Subacute or chronic sacroiliac strain is low-grade
>damage that causes typical back soreness.
> [...]
>"Chronic cases continue to show poor performance, despite rest &
>anti-inflamatory medication."
Fascinating.
Does it say what *causes* this 'chronic sacroiliac strain' in the
first place? Injury? Strain? (As in no proper warmup, that sort of
thing?) Saddle?
We're approaching Mork's main problem from the side here- he doesn't
have a lot of back muscle (none at the moment - he's still on
holiday), and he's typically stiff in the sacroiliac region. He can,
at times, 'lock' it - feels like someone just shoved one of those
'equalizer' pads under your saddle, he rises two inches in the back
and goes totally stiff - and he always needs encouragement to step
through. The problem seems to affect his ability to bend sideways and
collect both - insisting on engagement and lots of shallow suppling
exercises usually do the trick.
There are neither outward signs (smooth topline) nor does he dip his
back to pressure.
Catja
and Mork
nos...@my-dejanews.com
In article <35E0BA...@ix.netcom.com>,
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Is it possible that his stifle was locking? I rode a horse with this problem
and it felt much like this.
Allie
D.Melvina Harris
> Does it say what *causes* this 'chronic sacroiliac strain' in the
> first place? Injury? Strain? (As in no proper warmup, that sort of
> thing?) Saddle?
Appears to be due to injury, as stated in the Merck description:
> >Merck's Veterinary Manual lists it under "Sacroiliac Injury"
> > ".... is associated with a history of injury...."
And in Lameness in Horses by O.R.Adams, under Subluxation of the
Sacroiliac Joint:
"Etiology: Falls, slipping, and any other trauma that causes twisting or
high stress to the sacroiliac joint can cause the lameness."
"Signs: ...Usually stiffness & pain in the rear quarters are shown, with
considerable variation in the signs. [...] There often is some
surrounding muscular pain... [...] ...also describes shortening of the
stride, limitation in hind-limb joint movement & reluctance to jump."
"Treatment: Since subluxation of the sacroiliac joint(s) means that some
ligamentous attachments are injured, time must be allowed for healing to
occur. This means complete rest, preferably in a box stall for at least
30 days. [...] Injections of any type should be done under only the
strictest aseptic procedure. Infection in this area could be
disastrous."
"Prognosis: Prognosis is always guarded, & in those cases where there
had been repeated injury & extensive weakening of the ligementous
attachments, healing may never occur. In horses that obviously had past
sacroiliac subluxation, but whose joint(s) now appears solid & who have
no lameness, the prognosis would be favorable. A healed injury of this
type is probably more subject to reinjury & damage than is the normal
sacroiliac joint, & owners should be cautioned to avert such injury if
at all possible."
Sounds like pretty serious stuff. Hope Mork has something else!
Melvina
WVK13
>first place? Injury? Strain? (As in no proper warmup, that sort of
>thing?) Saddle?
We beleive my filly sustained hers either by slipping in some mud while turned
out. Or by free lunging in the arena. This is why I don't think free lunging
is the best idea for young playful horses. If they get out of control you just
don't have the means to stop them before they injure themselves.
Vk
Catja Pafort
>Appears to be due to injury, as stated in the Merck description:
<snip>
>"Signs: ...Usually stiffness & pain in the rear quarters are shown, with
>considerable variation in the signs. [...] There often is some
>surrounding muscular pain... [...] ...also describes shortening of the
>stride, limitation in hind-limb joint movement & reluctance to jump."
Short strides he's got, everything else he hasn't.
>In horses that obviously had past
>sacroiliac subluxation, but whose joint(s) now appears solid & who have
>no lameness, the prognosis would be favorable. A healed injury of this
>type is probably more subject to reinjury & damage than is the normal
>sacroiliac joint, & owners should be cautioned to avert such injury if
>at all possible."
That *does* sound more like it. As I said, I don't think it's anything
acute - but adding all facts together an *old* injury that sometimes
bugs him, especially in wet/cold weather (wet is worse) sounds more
and more plausible. It would definitely explain his irregularity, the
arthritic warning signs, and the way that he's trying to oppose
collection. (He's not *unwilling*. He just turns up stiff the next day
if you ask too much.)
Morks history as far as I know it:
Bought age four at Appleby (gipsy fair), origin unknown. (He's
skewbald, and pretty hairy - not a typical vanner, though.)
Trained in dressage and jumping until two years ago - dressage until
about third level, jumping about novice. (He's pretty much one-strided
can't be regulated, and since he's got short stride he just can't
handle combinations. He likes to jump, but has been reported NOT to
happily work in the school every day. (I think his former owner was
pushing him a bit hard. He's never complained to me.)
Then there's a gap I'll try and find something out about - he was sold
about two years ago (bought back for the school last year) and NOT
WORKED MUCH during that time.
Came into work again last year, no backmuscle at all, very stiff,
unwilling to bend, unable to collect. Has been inconsistent ever since
then. (At times very stiff and resistant, at times offering *good*
collection)
A wild guess would be an early (mild?) injury in younger years, and a
repetition about two years ago.
It would fit the pattern. There aren't *that* many things that can go
wrong with a sacroiliac joint...
Catja
Jennifer Hazen
cdho...@highland.net wrote:
> In less medical terms<G>....
>
> in gaited horses we are thrust back by the horses impulsion.....we have no
> trot to throw us forward...
>
> so unless the rider pays attention (or cares... most don't) our weight is
> shifted to the rear of the saddles.esp. in the horrid cutback saddles...over
> time w/o additional padding..the hard knots occur....we usually don't call
> them "hunter bumps " in the South however....(I don't think there is a clever
> name for them...you just don't buy a riding horse with them).
>
> now it will occur in other breeds esp. when they have been ridden in a too
> small saddle( you know....hanging over the back of the Western saddle)
>
> pride will keep a lot of people from admitting that they no longer fit that
> beloved saddle...
> --
> Tamara in TN
> visit us at http://www.horsecorral.com/cdhoward.htm
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Sorry to put this in so late to this thread but what you are describing sounds
like what a horse in the boarding stable I keep my horse at has. Horse is a 7 or
8 yo Oldenburg gelding, used as a jumper in Germany before being imported a few
years ago and now used for dressage. He has a hump along the top of his spine
right under the back of the saddle pad - it was there when current owner bought
him. The clinician who comes to the farm once a month (mulit-time olympian in
dressage for germany) called this condition "carp backed" as in the fish. I
thought this was an interresting term. Owner has had horse evaluated by vets and
a chiropractor dvm but the hump seems perminant and doesnt appear to be painful
to the touch.
Just food for thought.
Jennifer & Mulligatawny