(RE: Doc Bar w/arab blood)
Deborah Stevenson
>Has anyone contacted the american quarter horse association? It has
>extensive files on foundation stallions and can trace bloodlines upon
>request. It seems to me that the person who first suggested that Doc Bar
>decended from arabians must hold quarter horses in a much higher respect
>than arabians since that person obviously hopes that arabians could have
>had at least some connection with the highly reguarded quarter horses.
There's no argument about what the bloodlines are *supposed* to be, which
is what the AQHA will tell you. We're fighting about whether they are
what they're supposed to be, who says, and, soon to come, whose mother
dresses who funny :-).
I'm afraid I have to join James in dismissing the provative value of the
breeder's silence on the subject. I don't believe Penny Tweedy ever
denied the Secretariat rumor, and there are various urban legendees
who've never bothered to deny tales about them. And are y'all telling me
that if the breeders said "Oh, that's not true, Doc Bar wasn't sired by an
Arab" that would convince you? Then look at the papers, because they said it
there.
I was thinking about the issue of issue, as it were, and Laura Behning's
comment that Morgan people are also fanatic about bloodlines. Seems to
me if people can get into fistfights about whether Figure was the get of
True Briton, or a Dutch stallion, or Gumby's Poky 200 years after the
horse is dead it's not surprising that folk get a little tetchy about such
questions when the breeders are still alive and kicking.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Whose mother *always* dressed her funny in Champaign, IL, USA
Tabitha J Kinser
Has anyone contacted the american quarter horse association? It has
extensive files on foundation stallions and can trace bloodlines upon
request. It seems to me that the person who first suggested that Doc Bar
decended from arabians must hold quarter horses in a much higher respect
than arabians since that person obviously hopes that arabians could have
had at least some connection with the highly reguarded quarter horses.
--
Tabitha J Kinser
blo...@iastate.edu
Bruce Saul
Bravo! I love Arabs but I also love QHs and the idea of my two
favorite breeds being put together in one tremendously athletic line is
fascinating to me. Thus my interest in the rumor. You have hit the nail
on the head. By the way I wasn't the person who brought the rumor up that
was Sue Bishop but I am sure her fascination was equally well intended.
Tracy and everybody
Bruce Saul
>I was thinking about the issue of issue, as it were, and Laura Behning's
>comment that Morgan people are also fanatic about bloodlines. Seems to
>me if people can get into fistfights about whether Figure was the get of
>True Briton, or a Dutch stallion, or Gumby's Poky 200 years after the
>horse is dead it's not surprising that folk get a little tetchy about such
>questions when the breeders are still alive and kicking.
I guess the difference here is that with the breeder around to
comment having no comments even in the form of a counter rumor in the local
vicinity is unusual. Also as a westerner I tend to expect that someone
who is still around will do their own fighting if the reputation is so
important to them. I tend to think that if they don't want to fight about
why should we? But that doesn't mean we can't TALK about it, does it?
Tracy and everybody
Chris Lengerman
Do you have a copy of The Legends Book handy? Take a look at the picture of
Doc Bar and compare it to the picture of Lightning Bar on the adjacent page.
When I first read your "rumors" I thought...forget it they're wrong, however,
when I looked at these pictures I stopped to wonder.
I too am an Arab/QH person...I have an ancient Bask x Morific Arab gelding
(whom I love), but then I currently have two QHs (double Gay Bar King grandson
& Gay Bar King x Poco Pine grandson) that I show.
The thought that Doc Bar might have been sired by an Arab is probably quite
threatening to a lot of QH folk. Personally, I find the whole rumor quite
interesting...I'm not saying I believe it though.
Chris
Freeland, MI
James McCameron
>Tracy & to everyone else who is following this thread:
>
>Do you have a copy of The Legends Book handy? Take a look at the picture of
>Doc Bar and compare it to the picture of Lightning Bar on the adjacent page.
>When I first read your "rumors" I thought...forget it they're wrong, however,
>when I looked at these pictures I stopped to wonder.
>
Ok, yeah I've seen the pictures and seen a whole lot of Doc Bar sons and
daughters and grandsons and granddaughters ( like more than 100 less than 250?),
and I do not believe that there is any substance to the rumor.
---
James McCameron Lewisville, Tx.
james.m...@dseg.ti.com
"Chlanna nan thigibh a so's gheib sibh feail"
Corey Lee Bishop
: In article 11751...@inet3.nam.dow.com, cleng...@dow.com (Chris Lengerman) writes:
: >Tracy & to everyone else who is following this thread:
: >
: >Do you have a copy of The Legends Book handy? Take a look at the picture of
: >Doc Bar and compare it to the picture of Lightning Bar on the adjacent page.
: >When I first read your "rumors" I thought...forget it they're wrong, however,
: >when I looked at these pictures I stopped to wonder.
: >
: Ok, yeah I've seen the pictures and seen a whole lot of Doc Bar sons and
: daughters and grandsons and granddaughters ( like more than 100 less than 250?),
: and I do not believe that there is any substance to the rumor.
And I've seen Doc Bar grand-get that certainly does look Arabian.
Sure is funny that someone in Texas that, admittedly knows next to
nothing about Arabians, and has never been to Tucson, AND according
to other people, isn't a very experienced rider, considers himself
quite an expert.
: ---
: James McCameron Lewisville, Tx.
: james.m...@dseg.ti.com
: "Chlanna nan thigibh a so's gheib sibh feail"
Sue
--
"Inconceivable!"
"You keep using that word. I don' think it means
what you think it means." _The Princess Bride_
"Never underestimate the power of stupidity." Robert Heinlein
Chris Lengerman
This whole Doc Bar issue seems to be getting quite nasty...and being an
Arab & QH owner, I can understand why. Breeders stake a lot on their
reputations and here we go discussing rumors we don't know are true. "So
what?" some will say, others say "keep your rumors to yourselves". Well,
couldn't we just compromise? I wasn't around when Lightning Bar was
bred to Doc Bar's dam...were any of us? If so, were you actually a witness?
Personally, I will always wonder whether the rumor is true, however, it will
never change my opinion of Doc Bar or his superior performance record. I would
be interested to hear what AQHA has to say?
C. Lengerman
Freeland, MI
Marcy Jackson
>Tracy & to everyone else who is following this thread:
>The thought that Doc Bar might have been sired by an Arab is probably quite
>threatening to a lot of QH folk. Personally, I find the whole rumor quite
>interesting...I'm not saying I believe it though.
>Chris
>Freeland, MI
I've found the posts explaining 'why' and 'why not' Doc Bar is part
Arab interesting too. I'm aware of other lines of QHs that certainly
have Arab-like qualities. For example, Mistic Bar, like Doc Bar, is
an AQHA Champion stallion and grandson of Three Bars. He also sired a
lot of pretty dish-faced heads among other qualities that made me
wonder how far back the Arab is in him, if any. Having several
Arab-like qualities doesn't necessarily suggest to me that a QH is
half-Arabian though.
A lot of QH folk do seem to be getting worked up over this topic. I'm
a QH person too and I'm somewhat surprised at the reaction. I
seriously doubt this rumor hurts the reputation of the Doc Bar's
breeder at all. At this level of QH competition about the only thing
that makes or breaks a breeder is what their stallion produces.
Knowing the show crowd, they want bloodlines that win...period.
Rumors of a stallion being part Arab aren't going to stop mare owners
from breeding to a stallion if he's currently the hottest thing going.
The QH industry is full of rumors (probably as is any other
community)...rumors that are far more sinister than this. Being part
of a rumor is how you know you've made it in the QH industry. ;-)
Marcy
Marcy Jackson
mjj...@why.net
Dallas, Texas USA
Karen Hartman
>Personally, I will always wonder whether the rumor is true, however, it will
>never change my opinion of Doc Bar or his superior performance record. I would
>be interested to hear what AQHA has to say?
When the Quarter Horse Registry was just getting started they allowed
crosses to any horse registered with the Jockey Club. I can't
remember the exact date, but I think it was sometime before 1950 the
Jockey Club accepted Arabians. At that time there were very few
Arabians in the U.S. so I don't think many were used for breeding
Quarter Horses but some probably were.
Several years ago there was an article in Western Horsesman about an
Arabian stallion named Gudea. They even showed a picture of him.
Anyway, Gudea lived in Colorado and WAS used to breed registered
Quarter Horses. His nickname was "Goody". The article said he sired
many good Quarter Horses in the area. He was registered with the
Jockey Club.
--
Karen Hartman and Julio del Costa, Paso Fino
Spring, TX
khar...@earthlink.net
Corey Lee Bishop
: cleng...@dow.com (Chris Lengerman) wrote:
: >Personally, I will always wonder whether the rumor is true, however, it will
: >never change my opinion of Doc Bar or his superior performance record. I would
: >be interested to hear what AQHA has to say?
: When the Quarter Horse Registry was just getting started they allowed
: crosses to any horse registered with the Jockey Club. I can't
: remember the exact date, but I think it was sometime before 1950 the
: Jockey Club accepted Arabians. At that time there were very few
: Arabians in the U.S. so I don't think many were used for breeding
: Quarter Horses but some probably were.
One little tidbit of information, many of the Arabians in the US around
1950 were in Tucson. I don't remember exactly when Mrs. T. moved Al-Marah
to Tucson (when I see her in June I'll have to ask) but she brought
her entire herd down there quite some time ago.
Tracy was telling me that due to the large number of really great
working Arabians in Tucson, people are more tolerant and much less
inclined to be breed-blind. BTW, she has a pure-bred mare that won
Grand Champion mare in an Open Stock Horse Show. (I think I have the
details right.... Tracy?)
: Several years ago there was an article in Western Horsesman about an
: Arabian stallion named Gudea. They even showed a picture of him.
: Anyway, Gudea lived in Colorado and WAS used to breed registered
: Quarter Horses. His nickname was "Goody". The article said he sired
: many good Quarter Horses in the area. He was registered with the
: Jockey Club.
Some of the Army Remount horses ended up in the QH strain, often they
were T-breds or Arabians or Morgans.
: --
: Karen Hartman and Julio del Costa, Paso Fino
: Spring, TX
: khar...@earthlink.net
Sue
Corey Lee Bishop
: Folks,
: This whole Doc Bar issue seems to be getting quite nasty...and being an
: Arab & QH owner, I can understand why. Breeders stake a lot on their
: reputations and here we go discussing rumors we don't know are true. "So
: what?" some will say, others say "keep your rumors to yourselves". Well,
: couldn't we just compromise? I wasn't around when Lightning Bar was
: bred to Doc Bar's dam...were any of us? If so, were you actually a witness?
: Personally, I will always wonder whether the rumor is true, however, it will
: never change my opinion of Doc Bar or his superior performance record. I would
: be interested to hear what AQHA has to say?
The information about Doc Bar has absolutely no bearing on the horse or
on his performance OR the performance of his get. He was an outstanding
horse, he sired MANY outstanding horses, that is what is important.
To say that his reputation is 'ruined' because quite a few people have
heard that he has Arabian blood has nothing to do with how great a horse
he is and everything to do with breed prejudice.
: C. Lengerman
: Freeland, MI
Sue, who has owned T-breds, Appy, QHs, and prefers Arabians
James McCameron
>
>Several years ago there was an article in Western Horsesman about an
>Arabian stallion named Gudea. They even showed a picture of him.
>Anyway, Gudea lived in Colorado and WAS used to breed registered
>Quarter Horses. His nickname was "Goody". The article said he sired
>many good Quarter Horses in the area. He was registered with the
>Jockey Club.
>
Now this is some good evidence, can you find out
some more of the lines he produced?
James McCameron
>James McCameron (a84...@lvdc20.lvdc) wrote:
>
>: Ok, yeah I've seen the pictures and seen a whole lot of Doc Bar sons and
>: daughters and grandsons and granddaughters ( like more than 100 less than 250?),
>: and I do not believe that there is any substance to the rumor.
>
>And I've seen Doc Bar grand-get that certainly does look Arabian.
>
Did not, did so, did not......
To your eyes maybe, but to someone else's eyes? Maybe not. A lot
of people have some very silly notions that they hold on to
based upon very little evidence. Nor do they recognize their
own predjudices before blasting away at others.
>Sure is funny that someone in Texas that, admittedly knows next to
>nothing about Arabians,
And there you go, making stuff up again, seeing as I have broke
arabians, and a delight it was. Just don't like the way some
of them walk. But I don't like the way some QH's walk either.
>and has never been to Tucson,
Hmm, could've swore I lived there for three years, climbed up on Mt Lemmon
dozens of times, hunted quail on the range land out Miracle Mile, saw
H. Kosel and Lee Marvin lunching at the Look, saw a biker wipe
himself out late at night doing near a hundred down Speedway. But
hey, maybe my memory is shot.
>AND according
>to other people, isn't a very experienced rider, considers himself
>quite an expert.
So what, I could say the same about those you heard it from,
everyone has their opinions. Sometimes I express mine, just
as you do yours. That someone may not like it bothers me not
one whit.
Nope, I know I'm not an expert, otherwise I wouldn't have to pay a
trainer. But I do require more evidence than someone's say so
to start defaming someone.
Plus, from an earlier post, in court I wouldn't have to prove
anything other than that you did injure the defendants' character
in print, and that the defendant(s) did suffer from such defamation.
Financially or otherwise. It would be sqarely upon your shoulders to
prove the veracity of the comments. And as you've admitted that
these are no more than rumors, the case would be a matter of
just deciding how much should the defendant be awarded. Luckily
no one of import is really concerned with this neck of the woods.
James McCameron
>I've found the posts explaining 'why' and 'why not' Doc Bar is part
>Arab interesting too. I'm aware of other lines of QHs that certainly
>have Arab-like qualities. For example, Mistic Bar, like Doc Bar, is
>an AQHA Champion stallion and grandson of Three Bars. He also sired a
>lot of pretty dish-faced heads among other qualities that made me
>wonder how far back the Arab is in him, if any. Having several
>Arab-like qualities doesn't necessarily suggest to me that a QH is
>half-Arabian though.
>
>A lot of QH folk do seem to be getting worked up over this topic. I'm
>a QH person too and I'm somewhat surprised at the reaction.
Personally it wasn't the actual content that upset, but rather
the way the information was presented in a "hey, did you know that..."
and seemed pretty much manufactured to purposely rile
some individuals. Not only that, this is about the fourth time
it has been repeated from the same quarter as if repetition will
somehow make it better. This time following on the heals
of a similar more general debate. What is interesting is the
way we can slam a QH all day long, but say one deprecating thing
about an Arab and that contingent is all over you like
rabid dogs.
>I
>seriously doubt this rumor hurts the reputation of the Doc Bar's
>breeder at all. At this level of QH competition about the only thing
>that makes or breaks a breeder is what their stallion produces.
>Knowing the show crowd, they want bloodlines that win...period.
>Rumors of a stallion being part Arab aren't going to stop mare owners
>from breeding to a stallion if he's currently the hottest thing going.
>
>
You are probably right, but rumormongoring is resposible for a
lot of terrible things, it's one of those lessons that you
were supposed to learn from history classes in school and
hopefully from your parents. By exactly this type of presentation
black cats were burned in the middle ages, humans were burned
in Salem, Mass. and a whole bunch of kids were burned up
in Waco, Tx. not too long ago. Must be the grass fires has me
thinking all this conflagration in simile.
EASTERBEE
saw Three Bars when he was in Oakdale, CA. At that time, McBarr and Lucky
Bars were also standing at the same barn. All three had a strong
resemblance to one another. The Poco's that I've seen over the years,
including Poco Lena and Poco Mona, have a very fine detailed look.
Personally, I think you are seeing a natural genetic outcome of this
cross. I have one Three Bar line (not Doc Bar) that will occasionally
produce a lovely dish-face.
Did Doc Bar have any full-brothers or sisters? What did they look like?
C.M.Newell
>... What is interesting is the
>way we can slam a QH all day long, but say one deprecating thing
>about an Arab and that contingent is all over you like
>rabid dogs.
Aww, c'mon now! I consider myself one of the more rabid Arab
aficianados, and I haven't participated in this foolishness till now!
And here will jump in to say that I think the allegations are
probably a lot of hooey.
I don't think that loving Arabs means you have to try and get others
to think that they can do everything, and do it as well as the
specialists. They are pretty good jacks of all trades, but that's what
I like about them, and IMHO, a horse who is fair to middlin' at lots
of things probably won't beat a horse who's amazing at one thing.
There are the exceptions--Ronteza the cow horse, Serr Mariner the
dressage horse, but really--if someone walked up to me and said, I
want to get into reining, what breed horse should I get, or I want to
get into dressage, what horse should I get--I would probably not tell
them to go buy an Arab. OTOH, if someone said, I love Arabs, can I do
dressage on them? I would say, of course you can.
>... humans were burned
>in Salem, Mass.
NO witches were burned in Salem. One was pressed to death--the rest
were hanged.
Charlotte and the desert breds.....
"It is better to wear seaweed socks than thrust a melon in
your brother's ear."--R.Hunter
Phetsy Calderon
>Barred, Three Bar's best broodmare sire, sired quite afew dish faces. I
>saw Three Bars when he was in Oakdale, CA.
And oddly enough, Barred's get could all haul butt. My uncles were working at the Triangle T in Chowchilla when they were standing B=
arred, and the owners liked to start all their racing colts by having
them do some time in the feedlot.
The cowboys were not fans of this arrangement, because once you broke a lope after a getaway cow, the Barred colts all just shifted=
up to race gear and then went, well, speed-blind. So speed may have
skipped over Doc Bar's generation, but it came back in spades in Barred's.
Phetsy
cald...@popcorn.llnl.gov
++++++++++++++++++++++
CM, MTADSUN, C-pN
(Charter Member,
Misfit Trail & Alternative Dressage Society
of the UseNet, Cow-person Division)
Judy Bergman
: : >Personally, I will always wonder whether the rumor is true, however, it will
: : >never change my opinion of Doc Bar or his superior performance record. I would
: : >be interested to hear what AQHA has to say?
: : When the Quarter Horse Registry was just getting started they allowed
: : crosses to any horse registered with the Jockey Club. I can't
: : remember the exact date, but I think it was sometime before 1950 the
: : Jockey Club accepted Arabians. At that time there were very few
: : Arabians in the U.S. so I don't think many were used for breeding
: : Quarter Horses but some probably were.
<SNIP>
: : Several years ago there was an article in Western Horsesman about an
: : Arabian stallion named Gudea. They even showed a picture of him.
: : Anyway, Gudea lived in Colorado and WAS used to breed registered
: : Quarter Horses. His nickname was "Goody". The article said he sired
: : many good Quarter Horses in the area. He was registered with the
: : Jockey Club.
: Some of the Army Remount horses ended up in the QH strain, often they
: were T-breds or Arabians or Morgans.
: : --
: : Karen Hartman and Julio del Costa, Paso Fino
: : Spring, TX
: : khar...@earthlink.net
: Sue
To open a whole new can of worms - I know that Morgans were used on
ranches around the time QH's were developed, and that Morgans made it
into Mustang herds from the cavalry, but has anyone else heard this:
In the March Morgan Horse magazine, an article states that Steel Dust
was a registered Morgan, (#3372, vol.11, page 307, 1875, The Morgan Horse
Registry). I am assuming they mean *the* Steel Dust that was a foundation
sire, or at least a sire that heavily influenced the QH breed. Does anyone
have any input on this? It appears that the QH does not need to fret
about its ancestors - the influence of Arabs and Morgans and TBs is
nothing to be ashamed of! Taking the best of all worlds and breeding for
specific characteristics is what it takes to develop a new breed.
BTW, there is a gorgeous 4-yr-old buckskin QH gelding at our barn. The
first day I saw him, I blurted, "He's got a head like an Arab!". Guess
who's not too far back in his pedigree???
Judy Bergmann
Prescott, AZ
ju...@bslnet.com
Jim or Laura Behning
>: Karen Hartman (khar...@earthlink.net) wrote:
>: Some of the Army Remount horses ended up in the QH strain, often they
>: were T-breds or Arabians or Morgans.
>To open a whole new can of worms - I know that Morgans were used on
>ranches around the time QH's were developed, and that Morgans made it
>into Mustang herds from the cavalry, but has anyone else heard this:
>In the March Morgan Horse magazine, an article states that Steel Dust
>was a registered Morgan, (#3372, vol.11, page 307, 1875, The Morgan Horse
>Registry). I am assuming they mean *the* Steel Dust that was a foundation
>sire, or at least a sire that heavily influenced the QH breed. Does anyone
>have any input on this? It appears that the QH does not need to fret
>about its ancestors - the influence of Arabs and Morgans and TBs is
>nothing to be ashamed of! Taking the best of all worlds and breeding for
>specific characteristics is what it takes to develop a new breed.
As I understand it, the famous Morgan sire Jubilee King spent some
time in Texas siring QHs under the name "Yellow Jacket". This would
have been in the 40's or 50's. I have that article around here
somewhere..... ;-)
Laura Behning
mor...@mindspring.com
Sda...@vvm.com
>To open a whole new can of worms - I know that Morgans were used on
>ranches around the time QH's were developed, and that Morgans made it
>into Mustang herds from the cavalry, but has anyone else heard this:
>In the March Morgan Horse magazine, an article states that Steel Dust
>was a registered Morgan, (#3372, vol.11, page 307, 1875, The Morgan Horse
>Registry). I am assuming they mean *the* Steel Dust that was a foundation
>sire, or at least a sire that heavily influenced the QH breed. Does anyone
>have any input on this? It appears that the QH does not need to fret
>about its ancestors - the influence of Arabs and Morgans and TBs is
>nothing to be ashamed of! Taking the best of all worlds and breeding for
>specific characteristics is what it takes to develop a new breed.
We shouldn't assume. The Steel Dust that was the QH foundation sire
was foaled in 1843. His sire was a horse named Harry Bluff by Short
Whip. His dam was a TB mare nmed Big Nance by Timoleon. If I read
the stud book info you printed correctly the Steel Dust you are
referring to was foaled in 1875.
>BTW, there is a gorgeous 4-yr-old buckskin QH gelding at our barn. The
>first day I saw him, I blurted, "He's got a head like an Arab!". Guess
>who's not too far back in his pedigree???
Yeah, and I bet he's got a big ol' Qh butt on him too. A pretty head
does not an Arab make. I can show you a pasture full of fine headed
Quarter Horses. Some are Doc Bar bred, most aren't, or does the
Tuscon contingent think we've got more "Arabs in the woodpile"?
Susan Dangar
Standan Quarter Horses
Lampasas, TX
Katherine Sedwick
>....I can show you a pasture full of fine headed
>Quarter Horses. ...or does the
>Tuscon contingent think we've got more "Arabs in the woodpile"?
Are we allowed to say "Arabs in the woodpile" at all? Assuming yes,
I'm going to reiterate the obligatory every-nth-post-reminder: the
wrangling is not about *whether* but about *when* the ragheads left
all those woodpiles to visit their QH relatives.
I won't defend either breed; neither requires it. But I would like
to ask the QH people what lines do tend to carry the dish, because I
always found it consistently only with Poco Bueno breeding. No
scientific sample, just what came to my notice. I'd be interested
to hear if those who know these horses best have seen the same thing.
How about it?
Kate Sedwick
P.S. I started noticing because:
One woman I frequently rode with got really irate whenever anyone
asked whether her PB mare--gorgeous mare!--was part-Arab. It seemed
to me a natural enough question from a stranger. I had escaped her
wrath only because she'd told me she had a QH before I ever saw the
mare--face sticking out over a doorsill, of course.
KS
Sda...@vvm.com
>Are we allowed to say "Arabs in the woodpile" at all? Assuming yes,
>I'm going to reiterate the obligatory every-nth-post-reminder: the
>wrangling is not about *whether* but about *when* the ragheads left
>all those woodpiles to visit their QH relatives.
Being PC just isn't that high on my scale of priorities. ;)
>I won't defend either breed; neither requires it. But I would like
>to ask the QH people what lines do tend to carry the dish, because I
>always found it consistently only with Poco Bueno breeding. No
>scientific sample, just what came to my notice. I'd be interested
>to hear if those who know these horses best have seen the same thing.
Yep, lots of good heads here. Poco Bueno's sire King may have had
something to do with it. I've seen good heads on alot of horses going
back to him. I've also always thought the San Peppy/Leo horses had
good heads. (Check out some of the King ranch sale ads).
>P.S. I started noticing because:
>One woman I frequently rode with got really irate whenever anyone
>asked whether her PB mare--gorgeous mare!--was part-Arab. It seemed
>to me a natural enough question from a stranger. I had escaped her
>wrath only because she'd told me she had a QH before I ever saw the
>mare--face sticking out over a doorsill, of course.
I like riding a good looking horse and I like horses with little ears
and a big soft eye, but noone has EVER asked if my horses were part
Arab. A head does not an Arab make. What does the rest of her horse
look like? I've seen hammer-headed QH's with big ears too, it would
never occur to me to ask if it were half-Jackass. I would prefer to
reserve that judgement for folks that think a QH can't have a pretty
head. :)
Bruce Saul
>>To open a whole new can of worms - I know that Morgans were used on
>>ranches around the time QH's were developed, and that Morgans made it
>>into Mustang herds from the cavalry, but has anyone else heard this:
Great info I'd like to see more about this if you can dig it up.
>>In the March Morgan Horse magazine, an article states that Steel Dust
>>was a registered Morgan, (#3372, vol.11, page 307, 1875, The Morgan Horse
>>Registry). I am assuming they mean *the* Steel Dust that was a foundation
>>sire, or at least a sire that heavily influenced the QH breed. Does anyone
For a time the breed that became the Quarter Horse were called Steel
Dusts because of that sire. Whether this is the same horse or not is a
question. According to my information Steel Dust was sired by a horse named
Harry Bluff who was by Short's Whip by Whip, and Harry Bluff was out of
a mare named Big Nance who was by Timoleon who was by Sir Archy who was a TB
who goes back in sire line to the Byerly Turk, Timoleon was out of Saltram by
imported Saltram which likely means that this is also a Thoroughbred line.
This does not by any means mean that Steel Dust could not have had a Morgan
lineage also just that my information does not include that connection, there
are certainly ample blank spaces within the pedigree that could be filled
in. If you have some published information regarding this I'd love to see
it for my research.
>>have any input on this? It appears that the QH does not need to fret
>>about its ancestors - the influence of Arabs and Morgans and TBs is
>>nothing to be ashamed of! Taking the best of all worlds and breeding for
>>specific characteristics is what it takes to develop a new breed.
Absolutely!!!
>As I understand it, the famous Morgan sire Jubilee King spent some
>time in Texas siring QHs under the name "Yellow Jacket". This would
>have been in the 40's or 50's. I have that article around here
>somewhere..... ;-)
Let's see, Yellow Jacket, was a ranch QH who was sired by Little Rondo
by Lock's Rondo by Whalebone by Old Billy by Shiloh by Union by Van Tramp
by Thomas' Big Solomon by Sir Solomon by Sir Archy (Thoroughbred) who then
goes through several ancestors before getting to the Byerly Turk. Yellow
Jacket's dam is listed as a mare named Barbee Dun by Lock's Rondo and out
of a mare named Mexican Dun who was probably from Mexico or at least possibly
a mustang because her pedigree ends there. The photographs of Yellow Jacket
show a horse that ain't much to look at (not that that matters much what
counts is what he could do), his get are similar (by the way a number of
the QHs around this period had particularly long mulish looking ears). In
this case there were likely a number of horses named Yellow Jacket around the
same time period, I'd guess it was a popular name of the time. This horse
does have a reasonable amount of documentation regarding his doings and
whereabouts, however there is no knowing whether another stallion also sired
horses under the same name, records being what they are (hand-written after
the fact) a lot of horses have questionable ancestry. There is a QH named
Lone Star who was fairly close up in my old QH mare's ancestry who is listed
in one book as having been sired by a horse named Billy Sunday and in another
QH book as having been sired by Gold Enamel, a Thoroughbred. There is plenty
of controversy in old QH pedigrees to go around. Controversy regarding horse
pedigrees is as old as domestication.
Again I would LOVE to see the article you mentioned for my research.
I'd also love to find any descendants of my old mare if any, her name was
Chiquita Roja AQHA #158,002, she had a colt named Missile Van who sired 7
offspring, 2 fillies and 5 colts. I have not been able to trace them any
further and haven't called the AQHA for more info because that was all they
sent me when I asked for info about her descendants. I suspect that was all
they had. If anybody with stud books can locate another generation for me
that would be very very appreciated or any other offspring of Missile Van
that the AQHA might have missed I'd appreciate knowing.
Tracy and everybody
Phetsy Calderon
kit...@sneeze.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Bruce Saul) writes:
> I'd also love to find any descendants of my old mare if any, her name was
> Chiquita Roja AQHA #158,002, she had a colt named Missile Van who sired 7
> offspring, 2 fillies and 5 colts.
Tracy, I'm curious--since "Chiquita Roja" means "Little Red Girl,"
was your
mare by chance out of the Red Joe Jones ("of Arizona") line?
Phetsy
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The only native Californian on the planet who knows
that Chardonnay is carbolic acid's secret ID.
Marcy Jackson
>I'd also love to find any descendants of my old mare if any, her name was
>Chiquita Roja AQHA #158,002, she had a colt named Missile Van who sired 7
>offspring, 2 fillies and 5 colts. I have not been able to trace them any
>further and haven't called the AQHA for more info because that was all they
>sent me when I asked for info about her descendants. I suspect that was all
>they had. If anybody with stud books can locate another generation for me
>that would be very very appreciated or any other offspring of Missile Van
>that the AQHA might have missed I'd appreciate knowing.
> Tracy and everybody
From the QH Reference Vol 1 c.1972:
Chiquita Roja by Ring Me Up. Produced ROM Race: Missile Van SI 84
foaled in 62. No other offspring are listed.
Missile Van is sired by Tony's Vandy. As of 72, Missile Van had not
produced any foals that had accomplished enough to get in the QH Ref.
Nor, as of 72, had any daughters produced proven performers. The
colts may have produced something but I can't find them without a name
either.
Ring Me Up (foaled in 51) is by Ringmenow TB out of Canelo Girl. He
was AA. The only offspring listed is 1 producing daughter, Chiquita
Roja. Canelo Girl is by Little Ben. Canelo Girl's only proven
offspring is Ring Me Up. Little Ben sired 2 race ROMS and numerous
producing daughters.
I don't think I've told you anything that you probably already know.
This QH Ref. only lists horses that are proven performers or that have
produced performers and only goes up to 1972. Maybe someone else can
find some more info. Due to the way AQHA has structured the
information, the records are better about tracing ancestors than
descendents.
Marcy
---
Bruce Saul
>kit...@sneeze.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Bruce Saul) wrote:
>
>>Chiquita Roja AQHA #158,002, she had a colt named Missile Van who sired 7
>>offspring, 2 fillies and 5 colts. I have not been able to trace them any
>>further and haven't called the AQHA for more info because that was all they
>>sent me when I asked for info about her descendants. I suspect that was all
>>they had. If anybody with stud books can locate another generation for me
>>that would be very very appreciated or any other offspring of Missile Van
>>that the AQHA might have missed I'd appreciate knowing.
>
>
>Steel Dust and Yellow Jacket.:) About your mare, if you'll send me
I'm still getting caught up.
>the names of her sire and dam, and their numbers, I know a gal on AOL
>that has the studbooks and does research for free, if you don't mind
>waiting a week or two. I'd be happy to forward the info to you and
>send you the results.
Chiquita Roja #158,002 was by Ring Me Up AQHA #75,984 and out of
Llegua Bonita (which means pretty little mare in Spanish) AQHA #92,963.
Chiquita Roja aka Missy went back to Pharamond and Omar Khayyam both TBs on
her sire's sire's side, sire's dam went to Ben Hur and from there to Yellow
Jacket, Rainy Day, Lone Star, etc. and a horse named Martin's Snort #6662
who was by and out of "RO horse" which I assume means ranch-owned horse?
One her dam's side Llegua Bonita was by Thistle by Cowboy P-12 by Yellow
Jacket out of Roan Lady, Thistle out of Roanie, and so forth including a line
to Peter McCue, Possum (King), and out of a mare named Chile Colorado by
Little Fellow P-1269 by Red Man P-1185, and through Sorrel Streak to Zantanon,
Little Joe and Traveler, Chile Colorado was out of a mare named White Marie
who was sired by Lost Cause, a Thoroughbred, out of an unlisted or unknown
mare. That ought to give your friend plenty to go on for Missy. There's
a whole mess more famous names but what I've already given is pretty over-
whelming.
Missy's son Missile Van was AQHA #251356 and he was by Tony's Vandy
AQHA #62492. He was raced, earned a racing ROM in 1971. The names of his
get were: Vannie Charge #534402 out of Josephine El
Vandy Roja #642514 out of Josephine El
Vandy Roja 2nd #799491 out of Josephine El
Dr Courtright (who used to be a vet in this area) #916231 out of
My Funny Girl
Navelko #920089 out of Josephine El
War Missile #1022790 out of Katchina Chant
Gay Moon Beam #638633 out of Red Jingles
If I can find living offspring of one of these horses I would like
to buy one, if not purhaps your friend can locate another Thistle x Llegua
Bonita horse offspring that maybe people had more sense to breed than we did
with our mare (we should have bred that mare early and often).
You see I speak QH as well as Arab. I'd like to get hold of an
descendent of hers because this particular old lineage is dying out and needs
to be preserved. There is no Three Bars or related ancestry in her lineage
(though I don't know about the mares that Missile Van was bred to) and
therefore these horses should be preserved as outcrosses. In addition
I think they'd cross well with my Arabs. Missy was the fastest thing on
4 feet, I barrel raced her when I she and I were both 14 y.o. for six months
and we came away with a lot of ribbons and a trophy. A few years ago I took
one of my Arabs to her one and only barrel race and we picked up a first and
a fourth. I haven't had a chance to go back to barrel racing since then
because I don't have access to a trailer all the time but I think it would
be a lot of fun.
Tracy and everybody
EASTERBEE
kit...@sneeze.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Bruce Saul) writes:
> Chiquita Roja #158,002 was by Ring Me Up AQHA #75,984 and out of
>Llegua Bonita (which means pretty little mare in Spanish) AQHA #92,963.
>Chiquita Roja aka Missy went back to Pharamond and Omar Khayyam both TBs
on
>her sire's sire's side, sire's dam went to Ben Hur and from there to
Yellow
>Jacket, Rainy Day, Lone Star, etc. and a horse named Martin's Snort #6662
>who was by and out of "RO horse" which I assume means ranch-owned horse?
>One her dam's side Llegua Bonita was by Thistle by Cowboy P-12 by Yellow
>Jacket out of Roan Lady, Thistle out of Roanie, and so forth including a
line
>to Peter McCue, Possum (King), and out of a mare named Chile Colorado by
>Little Fellow P-1269 by Red Man P-1185, and through Sorrel Streak to
>Zantanon,
>Little Joe and Traveler, Chile Colorado was out of a mare named White
Marie
>who was sired by Lost Cause, a Thoroughbred, out of an unlisted or
unknown
>mare. That ought to give your friend plenty to go on for Missy. There's
>a whole mess more famous names but what I've already given is pretty
over-
>whelming.
RO horses came out of the Greene Cattle Co. of Patagonia and Sonoita,
Arizona. Superb cow horses and predominately deep red chestnuts.
Easterbee
phe...@usa.pipeline.com
>In article <4isg0m$j...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>,
>kit...@sneeze.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Bruce Saul) writes:
>
>> Chiquita Roja #158,002 was by Ring Me Up AQHA #75,984 and out of
>>Llegua Bonita (which means pretty little mare in Spanish) AQHA #92,963.
>>Chiquita Roja aka Missy went back to Pharamond and Omar Khayyam both TBs
>on
>>her sire's sire's side, sire's dam went to Ben Hur and from there to
>Yellow
>>Jacket, Rainy Day, Lone Star, etc. and a horse named Martin's Snort #6662
>>who was by and out of "RO horse" which I assume means ranch-owned horse?
SNIP
>
>RO horses came out of the Greene Cattle Co. of Patagonia and Sonoita,
>Arizona. Superb cow horses and predominately deep red chestnuts.
This was originally the brand of the Rowe brothers who started the outfit
IIR .
They were well-known for fine running horses, as well, but that was
way back before the AQHA was founded. Wonderful horses in general--
first horse I ever rode was an RO-bred stud (Topper II by Old Topper out
of Shy Anne, an RO-bred mare.) He was in fact a liver chestnut, and got
quite a few palominos and chestnuts, and the only fire sorrel I've ever
seen.
Phetsy Calderon
phe...@usa.pipeline.com
Karen Malcor
kit...@sneeze.resp-sci.arizona.edu said:
> You see I speak QH as well as Arab. I'd like to get hold of an
>descendent of hers because this particular old lineage is dying out and needs
>to be preserved. There is no Three Bars or related ancestry in her lineage
>(though I don't know about the mares that Missile Van was bred to) and
>therefore these horses should be preserved as outcrosses. In addition
>I think they'd cross well with my Arabs. Missy was the fastest thing on
>4 feet, I barrel raced her when I she and I were both 14 y.o. for six months
>and we came away with a lot of ribbons and a trophy. A few years ago I took
>one of my Arabs to her one and only barrel race and we picked up a first and
>a fourth. I haven't had a chance to go back to barrel racing since then
>because I don't have access to a trailer all the time but I think it would
>be a lot of fun.
>Tracy and everybody
I've got a QH mare now who we're breeding to QH's with the aim of using
her daughters with my Arabian son of Khemosabi++++! "Tiffany" is by a
son of Two Eyed Jack and out of a granddaughter of both Skipper W and
Plaudit! She qualifies for both foundation QH registries. We're
breeding her to equally foundation bred stallions so that if we don't
get the sex or color of foal we want, her foals will still be valuable
to the folks trying to preserve the foundation QHs.
Besides Tiffany, we have 2 registered "Quarabs" and another on the way,
and our stallion is listed as a Quarab foundation sire.
Yes, folks! QH's and Arabians *can* co-exist! <grin>
- Karen
KpM Cornerstone Arabians
karen....@feed.com
---
þ QMPro 1.53 þ http://www.qdeck.com/~cornerstone/
Bruce Saul
>k...@cco.caltech.edu (Katherine Sedwick) wrote:
>>One woman I frequently rode with got really irate whenever anyone
>>asked whether her PB mare--gorgeous mare!--was part-Arab. It seemed
>>to me a natural enough question from a stranger. I had escaped her
>>wrath only because she'd told me she had a QH before I ever saw the
>>mare--face sticking out over a doorsill, of course.
>
>I like riding a good looking horse and I like horses with little ears
>and a big soft eye, but noone has EVER asked if my horses were part
>Arab. A head does not an Arab make. What does the rest of her horse
>look like? I've seen hammer-headed QH's with big ears too, it would
>never occur to me to ask if it were half-Jackass. I would prefer to
>reserve that judgement for folks that think a QH can't have a pretty
>head. :)
On the other hand ... my purebred Arabs have often been accused of
being part-Quarter Horse. The first time that happened that I can remember
was when Mithril was just 5 months old and the Arizona Livestock Inspector
came out to give her her ownership/hauling card, she looked at Mithril and
said, "That's not a purebred Arabian is it?" "I said she sure is. What did
you think she was, part-Quarter Horse?" She said, "Yes."
The funniest incident happened just recently, December 23rd 1995 to
be exact. I was hauling Mithril over to a friend's place across town for
a trail ride when an older lady in a small truck took a turn right in front
of me at an intersection when I had the light, needless to say we collided.
Fortunately no one was hurt, just a little shook up. Mithril was a real
sweety had to sit for over 40 minutes in the trailer, 20 in the middle of the
intersection, 20 in a bank's parking lot, while we waited for some friends
of mine to come rescue us with another trailer, and Mithril was very very
well behaved. When my friends arrived with the other trailer I took her out
and then we went right to putting her into the other trailer. She took
a slight acception to that planting her feet and deciding that she had just
got out of one of those, she wasn't going right back in. Right then a
cowboy who had been across the street at a convenience store getting coffee
comes sauntering up. Between the 3 of us she went into the trailer and
then he looked at my truck being hauled off and the other trailer which was
just sitting there in the parking lot and asked what we were going to do with
it, I said I would have to lock it up and leave it. He offered that if I
would pay him the gas he would be glad to haul it back to the stable for me.
I agreed. My friends took Mithril and I rode with the cowboy to give him
directions. Turns out he wasn't just an ordinary run of the mill cowboy,
he was a working cowboy. His mom owns a slaughterhouse in Colorado, he used
to have livestock himself before he came here, currently he owns a Poco Bueno
bred QH roping mare which he does some rodeoing with and takes every spring
over to a friend's in eastern Arizona to rope, snub, and buck out 2 year
old range raised QHs.
Well we got to the stable I was boarding at and I said that I was
going to turn Mithril and Cachet (Mithril's mom, who is pregnant with a full
sibling) out together in the 1 acre turnout to make sure Mithril was moving
ok. They immediately went trotting off together around the turnout. The
cowboy looks at them (in what appeared to me to be an admiring way) and says,
"Those are pretty nice part-Ayrabs." I said, "Those aren't part-Arab, they're
pure Arabian." He said, "Those are pure Ayrab?" I said, "Yup. What did you
think that they were, part-Quarter Horse?" He said, "Yes." Then he looked
at them a bit and he said, "You know the'is two kinds of Ayrabs, those
[pointing at my horses] ain't the fragile kind!" I almost split a gut.
After that he questioned me at length about where my horses came from whether
they were desert bred or not, etc.
By the way another friend of mine has a half-Arabian/half-Quarter Horse
who seems to have the unique ability to blend with either breed. When he's
in with Arabs he looks like a coarse Arabian, when he's in with QHs he looks
like a finer QH.
A lot of the early imported Arabs looked very plain, straight faced
and QH like and would easily pass today for Quarter Horse.
Tracy and everybody
Jessica Snyder
> On the other hand ... my purebred Arabs have often been accused of
>being part-Quarter Horse. The first time that happened that I can remember
>was when Mithril was just 5 months old and the Arizona Livestock Inspector
>came out to give her her ownership/hauling card, she looked at Mithril and
>said, "That's not a purebred Arabian is it?" "I said she sure is. What did
>you think she was, part-Quarter Horse?" She said, "Yes."
Along similar lines, my mom's yearling gelding was standing around
in the arena last year when the new farrier arrived. Realize that this
is the purebred Arab gelding that qualifies as a pinto; lots of white
and flaxen. In any case, the farrier stopped, squinted at the gelding,
paused, then asked my mom "Say... that's not a purebred Quarter Horse,
is it?" Mom (whose whole breeding program culminated in this colt)
managed to not be offended, and informed the surprised fellow that no,
it wasn't a pure QH, it was a pure Arabian! Guess he's not one
of the "fragile" kinds either :)
Jessica & Liza (my son is NOT a quarter horse!)
------------------------------------------------------------
jrsn...@students.wisc.edu in Madison, WI and the crew:
Kosh (Touchstonešs Harbinger) the Belgian Tervuren pup,
Liza (Padronšs Starlight) the Arabian mommy mare,
Nikki (Fathead), Pixel (Fuzzhead) and Voodoo (Blerthead),
Demon Cats from Hell,
and Keith, the wonderful husband who puts up with all of us.
------------------------------------------------------------
Phetsy Calderon
[good chuckle story about real cowboy and "brick wall"
Ay-rab munched]
I used to do a bit of penning (before I chained myself to a
computer in service of Trail Trials) and being the ex-cowcritter
I am, I tend to hang out with the odd cowboy or so.
Inevitably I'd be sitting in the warmup pen, waiting for my
go at penning, and some cowboy would walk up, look at HRH
Prince SF, squint and say "This horse isn't part Arab, is he?"
To which I'd always say "Nope. He's _pure_ Arab."
The usual response was "Good God. Stout, idn't he?"
Phetsy Calderon
>I've got a QH mare now who we're breeding to QH's with the aim of using
>her daughters with my Arabian son of Khemosabi++++! "Tiffany" is by a
>son of Two Eyed Jack and out of a granddaughter of both Skipper W and
>Plaudit!
Ohmigod! I just fritzed my keyboard from drooling on it!
>Yes, folks! QH's and Arabians *can* co-exist! <grin>
Well, shoot, nobody ever said they couldn't--at least not where I could
hear 'em.
I want GIF's of those young'uns when they hit the ground.
Sullys Maze
kit...@inhale.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Bruce Saul) writes:
> By the way another friend of mine has a half-Arabian/half-Quarter Horse
>who seems to have the unique ability to blend with either breed. When he's
>in with Arabs he looks like a coarse Arabian, when he's in with QHs he looks
>like a finer QH.
> A lot of the early imported Arabs looked very plain, straight faced
>and QH like and would easily pass today for Quarter Horse.
>
> Tracy and everybody
--This pretty much describes my 14.1h ARab. WE always thought
she was at least 1/2 QH. She is very stocky, straight face,
roudned croup, wide butt. Very placid nature to work around
(but great endurance and go to ride). I recently traced her
back to the breeders and found out she is pure Polish line-
Arab. Imagine my surprise!
Karen
John T. Klausner
writes:
>>RO horses came out of the Greene Cattle Co. of Patagonia and Sonoita,
>>Arizona. Superb cow horses and predominately deep red chestnuts.
>
>This was originally the brand of the Rowe brothers who started the
outfit
>IIR .
>They were well-known for fine running horses, as well, but that was
>way back before the AQHA was founded. Wonderful horses in general--
>first horse I ever rode was an RO-bred stud (Topper II by Old Topper
out
>of Shy Anne, an RO-bred mare.) He was in fact a liver chestnut, and
got
>quite a few palominos and chestnuts, and the only fire sorrel I've
ever
>seen.
>
>Phetsy Calderon
>phe...@usa.pipeline.com
This thread sure has migrated! Please enlighten me - what's a "fire
sorrel". I appreciate this turn in subject matter as I know very
little about the QH history. Thanks for this stuff!!
SueK
Phetsy Calderon
>
>This thread sure has migrated! Please enlighten me - what's a "fire
>sorrel". I appreciate this turn in subject matter as I know very
>little about the QH history. Thanks for this stuff!!
Oh boy--first I gotta back up and define "sorrel" vs. "chestnut."
For cowboys, they aren't really the same thing. A sorrel is just
a brownish-red horse, whereas a chestnut has bright metallic
highlighting. To put it another way, there's lots of sorrels of
various tints, but not a lot of chestnuts.
As an aside, I think the
reason that cowboys say there are <34> <128> [pick one] colors
of horses is that fine distinctions of color description help sort
large bunches of horses. Imagine showing up for work one morning,
and the caporal starts assigning horses. He wouldn't say, "Andy, you
ride the chestnut horse," because out of 10 head of ranch horses,
probably 8 of them are some mix of red/brown. He'd say, "Andy,
you catch up the bright sorrel horse with the near fore sock. Pete,
you take the big red sorrel with the star. Jack, droop a loop over
that dark sorrel with the roman nose. Tommy, ride the little red
sorrel with the apron face. Mike, catch up the red dun. Steve, you
take the yellow dun. Paul, ride the grulla. Little Johnny, you've
got the red roan. JP, cut out the yellow horse (mane and tail
same color as non-metallic body). Bill, you've got the flea-bitten
gray. George, see what you can do with the iron gray. Me, I'm
taking the liver chestnut."
Back to the main question. Sorrels have solid brown-red bodies,
chestnuts have gleaming metallic highlights, which can best be
observed over the protruding surfaces of the body, like the curve
of the pelvis and the shoulder, or along the lateral curve of the neck.
A fire sorrel has red-brown hairs, each of which is tipped with
(usually) gold. The horse gives the appearance of glowing all over.
It's a very rare color--I've only seen it once. The horse's basic body
color was a rich liver, like Burgundy wine, with the gold tipping.
He also had a flaxen mane and tail, a blaze face, and four white stockings.
Gorgeous.
John T. Klausner
<cald...@popcorn.llnl.gov> writes:
>
>Back to the main question. Sorrels have solid brown-red bodies,
>chestnuts have gleaming metallic highlights, which can best be
>observed over the protruding surfaces of the body, like the curve
>of the pelvis and the shoulder, or along the lateral curve of the
neck.
>A fire sorrel has red-brown hairs, each of which is tipped with
>(usually) gold. The horse gives the appearance of glowing all over.
>It's a very rare color--I've only seen it once. The horse's basic body
>color was a rich liver, like Burgundy wine, with the gold tipping.
>He also had a flaxen mane and tail, a blaze face, and four white
stockings.
>Gorgeous.
Wow! I'm impressed! I can't quite even imagine this. When you do the
bogbash, I think you need to do a paint palette of all these different
colors! and to think I thought there were just chestnuts and sorrels
(chestnuts with flaxen manes and tails)! Your descriptions are enough
to make me come and see --- small herds of matching colors wheeling
around!! Brings tears to my eyes!
Suek
Bruce Saul
>In article <4idrd4$d...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>
>kit...@sneeze.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Bruce Saul) writes:
>> Chiquita Roja AQHA #158,002, she had a colt named Missile Van who sired 7
>> offspring, 2 fillies and 5 colts.
>
>was your
>mare by chance out of the Red Joe Jones ("of Arizona") line?
Nope, she was by Ring Me Up, a racing QH. Missy, as we called her,
was a lovely strawberry roan. She was a rich sorrel shade of red mixed with
just enough roan hairs to make her almost pink but not quite, so she was
a bright bright red. Her dam was Llequa Bonita which means "Pretty Little
Mare" and had as one of her ancesters, Red Man. So if Red Joe Jones is
related to Red Man then they were distant cousins. She was to say the least
a lot of horse, dumped me 3 weeks after we bought her and fractured my elbow.
She and I were both 8 years old. We tried breeding her to a lovely Arabian
when she was 15 but she lost the foal. Now I believe it was probably due to
a rhino infection (before the vaccination was available).
Tracy and everybody
Morgan James
like to take a look at what you think looks like a QH. Feel free to
send it to "at...@cswnet.com"
No offense, just curious..usually doesn't take a whole lot to look
like a 'stout' Arab...but that's a far cry in my book from looking
like a QH., practically ANY QH......
Morgan
Jessica Snyder <jrsn...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
>kit...@inhale.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Bruce Saul) wrote:
>
>> On the other hand ... my purebred Arabs have often been accused of
>>being part-Quarter Horse. The first time that happened that I can remember
>>was when Mithril was just 5 months old and the Arizona Livestock Inspector
>>came out to give her her ownership/hauling card, she looked at Mithril and
>>said, "That's not a purebred Arabian is it?" "I said she sure is. What did
>>you think she was, part-Quarter Horse?" She said, "Yes."
>
Morgan James
>In <4it7ij$j...@news1.h1.usa.pipeline.com> phe...@usa.pipeline.com
>writes:
>>
>>>RO horses came out of the Greene Cattle Co. of Patagonia and Sonoita,
>
>>>Arizona. Superb cow horses and predominately deep red chestnuts.
>>
>>This was originally the brand of the Rowe brothers who started the
>outfit
>>IIR .
>>They were well-known for fine running horses, as well, but that was
>>way back before the AQHA was founded. Wonderful horses in general--
>>first horse I ever rode was an RO-bred stud (Topper II by Old Topper
>out
>>of Shy Anne, an RO-bred mare.) He was in fact a liver chestnut, and
>got
>>quite a few palominos and chestnuts, and the only fire sorrel I've
>ever
>>seen.
>>
>>Phetsy Calderon
>>phe...@usa.pipeline.com
>
>This thread sure has migrated! Please enlighten me - what's a "fire
>sorrel". I appreciate this turn in subject matter as I know very
>little about the QH history. Thanks for this stuff!!
>SueK
\
Phetsy? Sue, I had a "fire sorrel" filly once, bred her out of a
sorrel Arab stallion with flax mane and tail, and a dark bronze
chested gaited Morgan/QH buckskin...when the setting sun hit her it
was something to see..
Morgan
Bruce Saul
>Back to the main question. Sorrels have solid brown-red bodies,
>chestnuts have gleaming metallic highlights, which can best be
>observed over the protruding surfaces of the body, like the curve
>of the pelvis and the shoulder, or along the lateral curve of the neck.
>A fire sorrel has red-brown hairs, each of which is tipped with
>(usually) gold. The horse gives the appearance of glowing all over.
>It's a very rare color--I've only seen it once. The horse's basic body
>color was a rich liver, like Burgundy wine, with the gold tipping.
>He also had a flaxen mane and tail, a blaze face, and four white stockings.
>Gorgeous.
Ooops well this just goes to show there's 31 flavors of color for
everybody and everybody has there own name for them. When I was a kid we
called a horse a sorrel if the body color was an intense rich red, usually
a darkish red, but so red as to immediately elicit that word. We called
as chestnuts horses that had a more brownish or muted reddish color, lighter
chestnuts also fell into the chestnut category. The red color of a sorrel
was so intense (and often so shiny) as to look metallic but not coppery or
orange, it was ... well it was red. That was the color Missy was under
just barely 50% roan hairs. Thus she looked red or pinkish red. So I guess
she didn't qualify as having fire sorrel hairs afterall. By the way that
red red rich intense deep red color of sorrel/chestnut I have only seen on
some QHs and TBs.
Tracy and everybody
Bruce Saul
>Anyone of you with these amazing looking Arabs got a gif or jpg? I'd
>like to take a look at what you think looks like a QH. Feel free to
>send it to "at...@cswnet.com"
>No offense, just curious..usually doesn't take a whole lot to look
>like a 'stout' Arab...but that's a far cry in my book from looking
>like a QH., practically ANY QH......
I would be very happy to send you some pics of my lovelies, however
I only have them in the form of bitmaps, if you want I can send you a
disk or two with said bitmaps on them and you can have a gander. Unfortunately
the one gif reader that I was given was left at my former place of employment
and has since been written over. If you would like me to send you some 3.5
inch disks with my horse's pictures in .bmp files on them please e-mail
a snail mail address to me. If you can't read those files I will be glad
to send some photos. But you have to promise me two things when you look at
these photos you must cover up the head of the horse and pretend that that
lovely dished face and beautful eyes are actually a more typical cowhorse
look, and the second thing is that you really seriously consider whether this
horse is a well built animal for stock purposes, not whether it resembles
a particular favorite QH lineage, there are a lot of lines of QH out there and
each has a different look. If you are willing to give them a good fair look
then I am very willing to go to the trouble of copying and mailing said stuff
out to you, anything less is a waste of time. The other possible format would
be in the form of a videotape where you can view the horse actually moving,
however in that case you would not only have to cover up the horse's head but
also the tail curled up over its back.
Tracy and everybody
Jane Kilberg
>I had a "fire sorrel" filly once, bred her out of a
>sorrel Arab stallion with flax mane and tail, and a dark bronze
>chested gaited Morgan/QH buckskin...when the setting sun hit her it
>was something to see..
>Morgan
Ever see a bay roan shine purple in the sun? Nope, haven't hit the peyote
yet... Got a 4 year old mare who is bay snowflaked with white roaning
hairs. When sun hits her at certain angle, dang it...got the purple haze.
down the sunny trails....
Jane Kilberg
Rocking Double J Ranch
Sundance 500 Newsletter € the appaloosa appreciation society
Bruce Saul
>In article <4isg0m$j...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>,
>kit...@sneeze.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Bruce Saul) writes:
>>Jacket, Rainy Day, Lone Star, etc. and a horse named Martin's Snort #6662
>>who was by and out of "RO horse" which I assume means ranch-owned horse?
>
>Arizona. Superb cow horses and predominately deep red chestnuts.
Thanks for the info, do you happen to know what RO stood for or meant?
Curious.
Tracy and everybody
Bruce Saul
>In article <4ist0u$c...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, EASTERBEE writes:
>>In article <4isg0m$j...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>,
>>kit...@sneeze.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Bruce Saul) writes:
>>
>
>>>who was by and out of "RO horse" which I assume means ranch-owned horse?
>>RO horses came out of the Greene Cattle Co. of Patagonia and Sonoita,
>>Arizona. Superb cow horses and predominately deep red chestnuts.
>
>IIR .
>They were well-known for fine running horses, as well, but that was
>way back before the AQHA was founded. Wonderful horses in general--
>first horse I ever rode was an RO-bred stud (Topper II by Old Topper out
>of Shy Anne, an RO-bred mare.) He was in fact a liver chestnut, and got
>quite a few palominos and chestnuts, and the only fire sorrel I've ever
>seen.
Thanks, I love learning new stuff. By the way imagine if you will
a strawberry roan in that shade of "fire sorrel", that was Missy (aka Chiquita
Roja).
Tracy and everybody
Bruce Saul
>Besides Tiffany, we have 2 registered "Quarabs" and another on the way,
>and our stallion is listed as a Quarab foundation sire.
Tell me more about the Quarab? I've got a friend who owns a QH/Arab
gelding and has a QH mare she's breeding to an Arab this spring (mare is
registered with the American Warmblood Registry also). She may be interested
in getting in on the Quarab as well.
>Yes, folks! QH's and Arabians *can* co-exist! <grin>
That was never a question, the only question is whether QH people
and Arab people can co-exist. I'm beginning to have my doubts. You know
it is funny, here in Tucson you get people of all breed preferences, those
that like QHs, those that like Arabs, those that like warmbloods, etc. Some
of the warmblood people in particular are negative about Arabs, but
one group that I have never gotten any negative feedback from regarding
Arabs are the QH people, they will say that they prefer a QH perhaps but
none that I have met have ever denigrated the Arabian. There seems to be
a certain level of respect for the Arab even among staunch QH folk. Most of
them, especially the old-timers really like some of the Arabs they see, some
even own one or two in addition to their QHs. Why is it that we CAN
co-exist here yet I hear from friends of mine in other places, particularly
the mid-west that QH people are very negative about Arabs??? The only thing
I can think of is that there are more Arabs out here doing more things that
gives people more of a chance to see them and in particular a lot of good
ones and therefore instead of forming an opinion in ignorance they are able
to see them perform and form their opinions from that. Either that or we
have some very polite QH folk out here.
Tracy and everybody
Bruce Saul
>In article <4ito1c$c...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>,
>kit...@inhale.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Bruce Saul) writes:
>> A lot of the early imported Arabs looked very plain, straight faced
>>and QH like and would easily pass today for Quarter Horse.
>
>she was at least 1/2 QH. She is very stocky, straight face,
>roudned croup, wide butt. Very placid nature to work around
>(but great endurance and go to ride). I recently traced her
>back to the breeders and found out she is pure Polish line-
>Arab. Imagine my surprise!
Hi, when you speak of Polish lineage it would be useful to give a
name or two that these horses trace to for those of us who follow bloodlines.
The reason is that at one time all Arab horses tracing to Skowronek were
classed as Polish Arabs, however because of his type and his history of
being bred exclusively to mares in England and most of those at Crabbet
Stud his descendents are now generally classed as Crabbet Arabians, except
for a few of his get who influenced Polish, Russian, and Spanish breeding
programs. Also many breeders make a distinction between what are now called
Old Polish blood, meaning pre-WWII foaled horses, vs. New Polish blood
meaning post-WWII horses. Thus being more specific will help us to know
what bloodline of horse you have. Finally an awful lot of breeders because
of the long and convoluted history don't really know what bloodlines their
horses come from, I've had people tell me their horses are all Spanish until
I've looked at the pedigree and found out that there isn't one Spanish name
in it, so if you are relying on the previous breeder for what bloodline your
horse came from you may find out different. Those who are knowledgeable will
be able to tell you sires and dams going back 4 generations without looking
at the papers and they will be able to tell you a lot about the history of
those ancestors.
Tracy and everybody
Karen Malcor
K>From: kit...@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Bruce Saul)
>Subject: Re: (RE: Doc Bar w/arab blood)
K> Tell me more about the Quarab? I've got a friend who owns a QH/Arab
>gelding and has a QH mare she's breeding to an Arab this spring (mare is
>registered with the American Warmblood Registry also). She may be interested
>in getting in on the Quarab as well.
Contact:
The United Quarab Registry
P.O. Box 12754
Ogden, UT 84412
Quarabs can be up to 75% Arab or QH, or Paint - as long as the other 25%
is QH or Arab. (75%QH, 25%Arab) or (75%Arab, 25%QH) etc. It's a nice
little registry working to get off the ground.
---
ş QMPro 1.53 ş http://www.qdeck.com/~cornerstone/
ann_savage
> karen....@feed.com (Karen Malcor) wrote:
>
> >I've got a QH mare now who we're breeding to QH's with the aim of using
> >her daughters with my Arabian son of Khemosabi++++! "Tiffany" is by a
> >son of Two Eyed Jack and out of a granddaughter of both Skipper W and
> >Plaudit!
>
Don't forget to let us know how it turns out.
My gelding is an appendix qh out of a Skipper W granddaughter. He looks more
like a thoroughbred but he has extra muscling from the qh side and he's an easy
keeper. He's a great horse...versatile and willing to learn. After racing a little on the
qh circuit, he was trained as a barrel horse for a while, lived outside in a field
for a whole Northern Ontario winter then was retrained as a dressage horse. He'll
be nine on Tuesday. He's sound and healthy and has a wonderful disposition.
Ann
Timmins, Ontario, Canada
Corey Lee Bishop
: Ann
: Timmins, Ontario, Canada
One of my friends used to campaign an Arab/QH gelding quite a few years ago.
She won tons of trophies with him, including getting a second in a major
open show in barrels.... EIGHTY-FIVE entries! She said he would do what
ever she asked him to do, including always winning at Trail Classes....
Worst class she was ever in, one where she had to pull a rope up across her
saddle with two honking geese tied by their feet, wings flailing! She says
her poor gelding was totally scared, but listened to her and stood like a
rock, the only horse in the whole class who let their rider do that!
Sue
--
"Inconceivable!"
"You keep using that word. I don' think it means
what you think it means." _The Princess Bride_
"Never underestimate the power of stupidity." Robert Heinlein
Jane Kilberg
bis...@eri.erinet.com writes:
>Trail Classes....
>Worst class she was ever in, one where she had to pull a rope up across her
>saddle with two honking geese tied by their feet, wings flailing!
Don't know why this is so bad...after all, it's a trail class which is
suppose to simulate what a trail horse sees and meets and hears along the
trails. <g>
In all these years, I've yet to run into two honking geese tied by their
feet (call the humane society) with wings flailing. Of course, there's
the usual dead cow/bear skin sometimes freshly scented or a cougar in a
cage. The best one I saw was years ago in a Texas show, they had a
javalena tied up. It got loose.
That's what I like about show folks...real practical. Not only that, many
of those national level trail class horses totally freak out on real
trails. So much for reality.
down the sunny trails . . .
jane kilberg and her gang of spotted 4 legged critters at the
rocking double j ranch in the great nation of Tejas
member of ApHC, Sundance '500' International (Appaloosa appreciation
society)
Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
bis...@eri.erinet.com (Corey Lee Bishop) wrote:
>
>One of my friends used to campaign an Arab/QH gelding quite a few years ago.
>She won tons of trophies with him, including getting a second in a major
>open show in barrels.... EIGHTY-FIVE entries! She said he would do what
>ever she asked him to do, including always winning at Trail Classes....
>Worst class she was ever in, one where she had to pull a rope up across her
>saddle with two honking geese tied by their feet, wings flailing! She says
>her poor gelding was totally scared, but listened to her and stood like a
>rock, the only horse in the whole class who let their rider do that!
>
>Sue
>
Wow. I've always thought an Arab-QH cross would make one good horse,
depending on the bloodlines, of course...at least that's what I'm dreaming of.
jrw
Clare E. Aukofer
> In article <4k2b2b$g...@eri.erinet.com> Corey Lee Bishop,
> bis...@eri.erinet.com writes:
> >Worst class she was ever in, one where she had to pull a rope up across her
> >saddle with two honking geese tied by their feet, wings flailing!
>
> suppose to simulate what a trail horse sees and meets and hears along the
> trails. <g>
>
> In all these years, I've yet to run into two honking geese tied by their
> feet (call the humane society) with wings flailing. Of course, there's
> the usual dead cow/bear skin sometimes freshly scented or a cougar in a
> cage. The best one I saw was years ago in a Texas show, they had a
> javalena tied up. It got loose.
>
> That's what I like about show folks...real practical. Not only that, many
> of those national level trail class horses totally freak out on real
> trails. So much for reality.
>
> down the sunny trails . . .
> jane kilberg and her gang of spotted 4 legged critters at the
> rocking double j ranch in the great nation of Tejas
> member of ApHC, Sundance '500' International (Appaloosa appreciation
> society)
> Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
Well, Jane, Kit and I ran into two honking and *attacking*
geese, wings flailing, though their feet were free. Actually,
one of them ran into *Kit*--the second time we encountered them
(they're nesting,but we weren't sure where) one actually flew
right at his face and bit him. Kit (A QH Three Bars
descendant) didn't even flinch that I could tell. Of course,
we had "practiced" the day before...he did later end up
dragging some thorny twigs, since we saw the nest (practically
right on the path) and ended up going through brambles to
bypass it...
Clare Aukofer, recently goosed in Charlottesville,
ce...@Virginia.edu
--
Jane Kilberg
ce...@avery.med.Virginia.EDU writes:
>Well, Jane, Kit and I ran into two honking and *attacking*
>geese, wings flailing, though their feet were free.
Aw Claire...that's cheating..free feet don't count; they got to be tied.
After all that trail class is a simulation of trail conditions. <g>
One time, while riding I, also ran into some geese...and their feet were
tied, hanging up side down, but their wings weren't flapping. <VBG>
down the sunny trails . . .
jane kilberg and her gang of spotted 4 legged critters at the
rocking double j ranch in the great nation of Tejas
member of ApHC, Sundance '500' Int'l (Appaloosa appreciation society)
Pete Bellas
> Jane Kilberg writes:
> > In article <4k2b2b$g...@eri.erinet.com> Corey Lee Bishop,
> > bis...@eri.erinet.com writes:
> > >Trail Classes....
> > >Worst class she was ever in, one where she had to pull a rope up across her
> > >saddle with two honking geese tied by their feet, wings flailing!
> >
> > feet (call the humane society) with wings flailing. Of course, there's
> > the usual dead cow/bear skin sometimes freshly scented or a cougar in a
> > cage. The best one I saw was years ago in a Texas show, they had a
> > javalena tied up. It got loose.
> >
> one of them ran into *Kit*--the second time we encountered them
> (they're nesting,but we weren't sure where) one actually flew
> right at his face and bit him. Kit (A QH Three Bars
> descendant) didn't even flinch that I could tell.
Just this Saturday we were riding and we spooked a squirrel at the side
of the trail. After dodging a couple of horses the squirrel decided to
climb the closest tree, unfortunately it was Scooter's leg! She went dead
still but her eyes were as big as saucers (and with all that white around
appys eyes it was quite a sight). The squirrel then went across her breast
collar and jumped off into the brush. I have had a lot of trail encounters
but this was one of the most amusing.
-Pete-
--
* Pete Bellas "Cogito ergo spud" *
* Citicorp TTI I think therefore I yam. *
* Santa Monica, CA *
* bel...@tti.com *
Sharon Lovejoy
> Clare E. Aukofer wrote:
> > >
> > Well, Jane, Kit and I ran into two honking and *attacking*
> > geese, wings flailing, though their feet were free. Actually,
> > one of them ran into *Kit*--the second time we encountered them
> > (they're nesting,but we weren't sure where) one actually flew
> > right at his face and bit him. Kit (A QH Three Bars
> > descendant) didn't even flinch that I could tell.
>
> Just this Saturday we were riding and we spooked a squirrel at the side
> of the trail. After dodging a couple of horses the squirrel decided to
> climb the closest tree, unfortunately it was Scooter's leg! She went dead
> still but her eyes were as big as saucers (and with all that white around
> appys eyes it was quite a sight). The squirrel then went across her breast
> collar and jumped off into the brush. I have had a lot of trail encounters
> but this was one of the most amusing.
>
> -Pete-
>
>
Once a friend and I were riding and were attacked by a rapid pocket
gopher (for a second I thought it was a hamster). Our horses were not
quite so nice as this tiny rodent ran figure eights around their feet,
jumping up and down and making these really weird noises whenever my
friend's dog approached it. I got off and tried to beat the little
bugger away with my riding crop, at which time it sank its teeth into the
leather end of the crop and locked its little jaws and hung on! I
carried it that way for a while, looking for a nice rock to beat it on,
and finally just chucked the critter (crop and all) as far as I could
into a sugar beet field.
at...@cswnet.com
>
>On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Pete Bellas wrote:
>
>> Clare E. Aukofer wrote:
>> > >
>> > Well, Jane, Kit and I ran into two honking and *attacking*
>> > geese,
>> Just this Saturday we were riding and we spooked a squirrel at the side
>> of the trail. After dodging a couple of horses the squirrel decided to
>> climb the closest tree, unfortunately it was Scooter's leg!
>> -Pete-
>>
>>
>Once a friend and I were riding and were attacked by a rapid pocket
>gopher (for a second I thought it was a hamster). Our horses were not
>quite so nice as this tiny rodent ran figure eights around their feet,
>jumping up and down and making these really weird noises whenever my
>friend's dog approached it.
Was loping through a stretch of sagebrush one time on one of my mustang
paints when she flat ran over a sleeping coyote! He jumped up between her front
legs and took off straight in front of us and she laid her ears back and
went after him..something like trying to sit a cutter at 35 mph or so...
NOT recommended!!!
Morgan
Steven G. Stenbom
Similar thing happened to two friends and me, except it was a black bear cub. It jumped out of
the brush immediately in front of the lead horse as we were running along a logging road in a
clear cut. The lead horse - an alpha mare - pinned her ears, put her head down and tried to bite
the cub on the butt - "get the hell out of my way" - and never broke stride. The cub apparently
got the message and peeled off into the bushes again. We always ride with a dog or two; perhaps
she thought it was one of the dogs......
--
Steven G. Stenbom
Kingston, WA
E-mail: ste...@pacific.telebyte.com or
st...@topdownsystems.com
Curt Emanuel
> Similar thing happened to two friends and me, except it was a black bear cub. It jumped out of
> the brush immediately in front of the lead horse as we were running along a logging road in a
> clear cut. The lead horse - an alpha mare - pinned her ears, put her head down and tried to bite
> the cub on the butt - "get the hell out of my way" - and never broke stride. The cub apparently
> got the message and peeled off into the bushes again. We always ride with a dog or two; perhaps
> she thought it was one of the dogs......
>
> --
> Steven G. Stenbom
> Kingston, WA
> E-mail: ste...@pacific.telebyte.com or
> st...@topdownsystems.com
Since we're talking dogs here I figured I'd contribute something here...
One place I worked was fairly close to a ski resort with quite a few
X-country ski trails that also made great riding trails. It wasn't
uncommon for us to go trail riding on some of the older geldings after
work - great for young horses too but that's another story.
Anyway, on these trips more often than not my Aussie Shepherd, Max,
would tag along with us. Typically he'd cruise the woods, then come back
for a while, then cruise.
One time we were riding next to an open field when we hear a commotion
out there and stop to look. There's Max chasing a pheasant that's
running along flapping her (we figured later it was a hen) wings. She
runs along for awhile, then turns and runs back directly at Max who
stops dead in his tracks, stares, turns and runs back to safety - us!
The pheasant doesn't stop and before you know it we have Max literally
between my gelding's legs (fortunately broke to death - we used these
horses to pony colts, do fence work, rope, etc.) and the pheasant, wings
flapping, still after him. Finally she gives up and turns around and Max
goes after her, starting the whole sequence all over. We saw this and
just plain left - our horses put up with it but they weren't too happy.
Fortunately Max came back when we yelled at him. Don't know for sure but
we figured it had to be a mother pheasant with a nest.
Curt