Questions on John Lyons book
MPAX
multiple times trying to visualize what he's describing. I would appreciate
some input from anyone familiar with his training methods. I have 2 questions.
1. The 3 second rule. He says he tries to "murder" the horse for 3 seconds when
the horse seriously misbehaves (biting, kicking). Does this mean hitting or
just yelling like a banshee in the horses face? Do you act in a threatening
manner just verbally or does it include contact with the horse's body?
2. He says most of the training can be done on the longe line if you don't have
access to a round pen. Until I talk my sister-in-law into constructing one, I'd
have to use a lunge line. I am having trouble visualizing and translating the
round pen lessons to safe work on the lunge line. My training goal is
retraining 2 horses that are already trained but need to be reprogrammed. One
is a 7 yr old gelding and the other a 16 yr. old mare. So they are not green.
As an aside, I'm not a novice at retraining or handling. But I am a newbie to
Lyon's methods to some extent. Seems we employ similar methods under saddle. I
believe his ground training and round pen methods would be beneficial to these
horses. And I'd like to get started.
Thanks for any help.
--Mary
AlaTmPnr
<<I just got "Lyons on Horses" and have read it cover to cover. Some parts
multiple times trying to visualize what he's describing. I would appreciate
some input from anyone familiar with his training methods. I have 2
questions.>>
That is the problem with reading books .. the methods are sometimes hard to
visualize and understand the limits of what the writer is describing.
<<1. The 3 second rule. He says he tries to "murder" the horse for 3 seconds
when
the horse seriously misbehaves (biting, kicking). Does this mean hitting or
just yelling like a banshee in the horses face? Do you act in a threatening
manner just verbally or does it include contact with the horse's body?>>
Well this is my experience and interpretation of that description: If you make
yourself "big" and display an intent "to eat" the horse ... I have found that
the horse is leaving and getting any kind of lick on the horse to be difficult
at best. You do not hold the horse to accept what deem you as punishment
anymore than the lead mare or the herd stallion would. If you are in an
enclosed area such as the stall you have to be careful as doing this can cause
injury to the horse in its efforts of trying to escape and if it discovers it
is trapped it may fight..... something you do not want. Make sure that when
you strike that the blows are to the body or the lower legs. Never to the neck
or head. I never use more than the leadline end or a small whip. Hoes,
shovels, forks, snaps on the leadline are no-nos. Although JL does not
discourage them in the book ... he did in the clinic I went to.
<<2. He says most of the training can be done on the longe line if you don't
have
access to a round pen. Until I talk my sister-in-law into constructing one, I'd
have to use a lunge line. I am having trouble visualizing and translating the
round pen lessons to safe work on the lunge line.>>
You will have to be more specific.
<<My training goal is retraining 2 horses that are already trained but need to
be reprogrammed. One is a 7 yr old gelding and the other a 16 yr. old mare. So
they are not green. >>
One consideration .... older horses that have to be retrained take twice the
time that untrained horses take. Basically what you are having to do is
convince the horse that stimuli A does not equal response B but C. So it takes
a bit ..... stay focused and break the task down to its smallest aspect and
reward every give on the way to the major response and the horse will stay calm
focused and learning. Hurry this or take a shortcut anywhere and you will have
to start over on that task ... trust me LOL.
<<As an aside, I'm not a novice at retraining or handling. But I am a newbie to
Lyon's methods to some extent. Seems we employ similar methods under saddle. I
believe his ground training and round pen methods would be beneficial to these
horses. And I'd like to get started. >>
Hey! Even old dogs learn new tricks every now and then LOL. See if you can
get some of his tapes either from the local tackstore or the library. It
clears up a lot of the misunderstandings. But you still have to experiment to
figure out what works for you and your horses.
Good Luck
Remember we are supposed to be having fun.
Bill
Terry von Gease
>I just got "Lyons on Horses" and have read it cover to cover. Some parts
>multiple times trying to visualize what he's describing. I would appreciate
>some input from anyone familiar with his training methods. I have 2 questions.
>1. The 3 second rule. He says he tries to "murder" the horse for 3 seconds when
>the horse seriously misbehaves (biting, kicking). Does this mean hitting or
>just yelling like a banshee in the horses face? Do you act in a threatening
>manner just verbally or does it include contact with the horse's body?
I do believe the old fraud says "Make the beast think you're about to kill it
for 3 seconds". I doubt if even Lyons used the word "murder". Nonetheless
there's a substantial difference between attempting violence and merely
creating the illusion of doing so.
Lyons has made a fairly decent living from simply knowing something when
the folk he gathers around him know nothing. When you know nothing,
something looks a lot like everything.
Besides, 3 seconds is much too glib to be of any real value.
>2. He says most of the training can be done on the longe line if you don't have
>access to a round pen. Until I talk my sister-in-law into constructing one, I'd
>have to use a lunge line. I am having trouble visualizing and translating the
>round pen lessons to safe work on the lunge line. My training goal is
>retraining 2 horses that are already trained but need to be reprogrammed. One
>is a 7 yr old gelding and the other a 16 yr. old mare. So they are not green.
With a 7 year old you may be in luck and get in on the tail end of what
passes for its mind firming up. Probably not. With the 16 year old, not
a chance. This doesn't mean that you can't teach them a trick or two,
what it means is they are pretty much what they are and you're
probably not going to change it just a whole hell of a lot. No matter if
you use a longe line, a round or any other shaped pen, or the force.
>As an aside, I'm not a novice at retraining or handling. But I am a newbie to
>Lyon's methods to some extent. Seems we employ similar methods under saddle. I
>believe his ground training and round pen methods would be beneficial to these
>horses. And I'd like to get started.
Lyons' scene is simply teaching horses how to be horses, not much
different that basic obedience training for a dog. Things like not
stepping on you, leading, loading, allowing you to hop on, and all of the
stuff that most actual horsemen do out of hand while training the animal
to be an athlete and perhaps a specialty. If these horses already do
this sort of stuff then Lyons probably doesn't hold much for you.
--
Terry
Time is nature's way of keeping everything
from happening at once.
MPAX
the gelding. But I want to correct them before they do get serious.
The 16 yr old mare is very well mannered. She does try to crowd you sometimes
and can be hard to catch. She's a good mount but prefers to follow the gelding.
This is the habit I want to break and I'd like to teach her to come when called
and stand. She'll come, but if she sees the halter in your hand she'll split.
But she is always calm. I already got her not to crowd me and to trust me to
groom her head and touch her ears. (She's a bit ear shy) She'll also now let me
lead her away from him and let me work with her seperately at the other end of
the field.
The gelding has great manners only if he sees you as higher in the pecking
order. I've had success with him at getting him to tie calmly to very flimsy
things and stand there until I let him go, to quit crowding me and to quit
nipping at me. I couldn't say what I did other than spend time with him. His
intense desire for a human friend and his love of attention help. Also, I've
spent a lot of time just asserting myself as his superior in the horse ranks.
When you tack him up its a whole other story. Then he really gets nippy. I
found out that my niece used to ride him in shows and ask him to do complicated
things at the show he wasn't trained to do. I think this has a lot to do with
his behavior under saddle. He doesn't trust humans on his back. Can't blame him
at this point. But I can't allow him to continue this behavior. Once he decides
you know what you're doing, he's a good mount. Very responsive and eager to
please. But before I get to training him more thoroughly so that he will be
able to perform more complicated tasks (thus ending his frustration at being
asked to do unknown things), I want to get him to accept the saddle without
nipping and to initially accept the rider without all the shananigans. My plan
is to do a lot of ground work with the saddle on without mounting. Then to work
with the basics under saddle before moving on. We'll start with the walk and
whoa.
I know I can fix both of their problems. I thought perhaps Lyons round pen
exercises might have some merit. After that I'd go back to my own methods. They
(Lyons methods) seem good at getting the horse to respond to you and accept
your control before moving on to more complicated things. I see this as step
one in my training goals for both horses.
--Mary
Jane H. Kilberg
(MPAX) wrote:
(snipped parts)
>The 16 yr old mare is very well mannered. She does try to crowd you sometimes
Then she's not "very well mannered." ;-)
>and can be hard to catch.
Then she's not "very well mannered." ;-)
>She's a good mount but prefers to follow the gelding.
Because the gelding is her leader/alpha.
>This is the habit I want to break and I'd like to teach her to come when called
>and stand. She'll come, but if she sees the halter in your hand she'll split.
>But she is always calm.
Put her in a small paddock or pen of some sort. Now direct her not around
and around and around, but rather get her to change directions frequently
with your body language, then ask her to halt and walk up to her. As soon
as she begins to "split" repeat over and over until she quits
"splitting." Change up directions to have her turn diagnonally across the
paddock/pen or turn to the outside, then inside. Whoa and stand means no
work. Taking off means work.
Walk up to her, then stroke her neck or face, then walk away from her. If
she starts to move off, then direct her again. Once she stands for your
directions, ask her to come to you by going toward her then draw her to
you with your body language as you did when you directed her turns, only
this time you are directing her to you. Repeat until she gets the idea.
Now add in the halter. Keep the halter at your side or in front of you at
your waist. Repeat above as necessary. When she comes to you to be
haltered, then walk her around on a loose lead, then release her. Repeat
again as often as needed.
>The gelding has great manners only if he sees you as higher in the pecking
>order.
Leadership means all the time, not just sometimes.
>When you tack him up its a whole other story. Then he really gets nippy.
Correct him immediately during the nipping process or when he turns his
head toward you. Also review your tacking up process. Could be the tack
causes problems or that he was never desensitized to tack correctly or he
associates tack with pain in some manner from the rider/handler.
I
>found out that my niece used to ride him in shows and ask him to do complicated
>things at the show he wasn't trained to do. I think this has a lot to do with
>his behavior under saddle. He doesn't trust humans on his back.
Then restart him with just lots of wet blankets and walking for at least
30 days with perhaps a bit of trotting here and there. Review mounting
procedures and even have someone video tape the process. This way you can
play back the initial riding to see where things begin to go in different
directions.
>Once he decides
>you know what you're doing, he's a good mount. Very responsive and eager to
>please.
Sounds like he just needs lots of saddle time, putting a good handle on
him over several months. Trail riding is great for this. Be consistent,
fair yet firm and treat the horse in kind.
down the spotted trails. . .
jane h. kilberg and her gang of spots (GOS)
member: ApHC, Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
editor/publisher: Appaloosa Network
Fernand A.S. van Geene
>Well, neither of the horses have serious problems at this point. Except maybe
>the gelding. But I want to correct them before they do get serious.
>
(snap)
>When you tack him up its a whole other story. Then he really gets nippy. I
>found out that my niece used to ride him in shows and ask him to do complicated
>things at the show he wasn't trained to do. I think this has a lot to do with
>his behavior under saddle. He doesn't trust humans on his back. Can't blame him
>at this point. But I can't allow him to continue this behavior. Once he decides
>you know what you're doing, he's a good mount. Very responsive and eager to
>please. But before I get to training him more thoroughly so that he will be
>able to perform more complicated tasks (thus ending his frustration at being
>asked to do unknown things), I want to get him to accept the saddle without
>nipping and to initially accept the rider without all the shananigans. My plan
>is to do a lot of ground work with the saddle on without mounting. Then to work
>with the basics under saddle before moving on. We'll start with the walk and
>whoa.
To my oppinion it's not a question of the horse getting to trust the
saddle, but to have the horse trusting you. Ground work can be very
helpful here... Once you've got the horse standing calm and relaxed
while you touch it all over its body.. it's only a small stap to hop
on it bare-back... (still your body touching the horse..)
>I know I can fix both of their problems. I thought perhaps Lyons round pen
>exercises might have some merit. After that I'd go back to my own methods. They
>(Lyons methods) seem good at getting the horse to respond to you and accept
>your control before moving on to more complicated things. I see this as step
>one in my training goals for both horses.
The strongest thing about JL's book is his step-by-step approach; it's
my experience that if you go through the work (realy) step-by-step,
you won't have to deal with to many problems at the same time!
>--Mary
Good luck!
_______________________________________________
Fernand A.S. van Geene, Farrier
Maarssen, The Netherlands
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hoefsmid/
Stefanie Meier
MPAX schrieb in Nachricht <19990516134909...@ng-cj1.aol.com>...
>1. The 3 second rule. He says he tries to "murder" the horse for 3 seconds
when
>the horse seriously misbehaves (biting, kicking). Does this mean hitting or
>just yelling like a banshee in the horses face? Do you act in a threatening
>manner just verbally or does it include contact with the horse's body?
>
I think it would depend on the horse. My own mare snaps at me, when I
inadvertly touch tender spots (I work on those with massage and touch and
better rinding, but sometimes she's still very sensitive). I would never hit
her because she would be very intimidated. A loud word is enough for her.
My sisters mare doesn't like grooming and kicks and bites on some days. She
is a much more robust horse and I hit her (mostly neck and withers) with
fists, sometimes with a brush. Most important is not being angry at this
time and after the three seconds of killing the horse instantly scratching
or petting it.
Hope this helps
Stefanie