HYPP Thoughts
Steve Johnsen
also known a lot of people who have HYPP N/H horses that have literally
NO symptoms. As a matter of fact I would venture to say that the number
of horses that do have problems with HYPP are a very small number of all
HYPP N/H horses.
Another interesting thing is what happened to a friend of mine.
She used to have an N/H daughter of Conclusive that showed no symptoms.
But one of the resulting foals who was also N/H (this foal also happened
to be an AQHA Superior Halter horse) had a lot of problems.
Personally I don't see HYPP as a big problem. I do think that it
is something to keep an eye on and definately try not to perpetuate. But
realistically there is literally millions of dollars in HYPP horses like
Diversified (4X World Champion), Mr Conclusion (All Time Leading Sire of
World Champions), Ima Cool Skip (3X World Champion and a Leading Sire),
Obvious Conlusion (2X World Champ & a Leading Sire), and countless other
horses. We cannot expect people to stop breeding these horses, they have
too much money on the line.
Another aspect of this is that typically HYPP N/H horses are the ones
who most often win because typically they are the heavier muscled horses
(not always though, Noble Tradition proved that by winning the World 4
Times, but he was beat very badly the last time at the World by Diversified.)
Steve Johnsen
John Rogers
being HYPP pos, and makes a reasonable effort to ensure the client or
buyer understands that, then more power to 'em.
2. We bought an Impressive bred stallion a couple of years ago for a
song. Nice stallion, or we wouldn't have bought him. Hadn't been
tested for HYPP. Took a chance, bought him, tested him, came up
positive on one side. Bred him to half a dozen or so mares making full
disclosure, gelded him, sold him. He made one hell of a nice gelding!
Foals were all N/N.
3. Check into diet. My wife says it has something to do with
likelihood of attacks. I'm not that deep into it, and she's not here
at the moment (helping a neighbor with a colicky horse, of course).
John Rogers
Horsey Folks Online
360-427-9173
Christine L. Stevens
>
>On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Steve Johnsen wrote:
>
>> Personally I don't see HYPP as a big problem. I do think that it
>> is something to keep an eye on and definately try not to perpetuate. But
>> realistically there is literally millions of dollars in HYPP horses like
>> Diversified (4X World Champion), Mr Conclusion (All Time Leading Sire of
>> World Champions), Ima Cool Skip (3X World Champion and a Leading Sire),
>> Obvious Conlusion (2X World Champ & a Leading Sire), and countless other
>> horses. We cannot expect people to stop breeding these horses, they have
>> too much money on the line.
>
>It would be so easy to stop. The AQHA need only refuse to register any
>horse that was HYPP positive. But obviously the AQHA is a gutless
>organization that cares more about money than horses.
>
>SHAME... SHAME.... SHAME....
>
>-Carol
The AQHA contributes significant sums of money to researchers all over
the country to study and find treatment for diseases/injuries that affect
all horses. Without the horses, they wouldn't be making any money (not
meaning to impy that the AQHA is getting rich).
Not all breeders of horses, even Impressive bred horses, are unconcerned
with the genetic makeup of "the industry". The bottom line is exactly
that; the bottom line, ie. money. The easy way to stop the spread of
HYPP is to JUST SAY NO. If you feel that strongly about it, don't buy
HYPP positive horses. If there are no buyers, the breeders will get the
message.
As mentioned in previous posts, the tricky part is that not all HYPP
positive horses experience "attacks". Why do you think that the AQHA
should prohibit registry and participation in competition of these
horses? What about horses that are carriers? What about horses that
have tested negative, do we trust the lab results?
Chris Stevens
AQHA#0135316
Tenacious Tardee HYPP(N/N)
AQHA#2465353
Jeff Jaquish
bred to him if he had not been negative. I asked the breeder if she
thought that most breeders of Impressive line horses were being
responsible and she felt that it will not be bred out because the demand
for Impressive horses is still so high. She said people are willing to
take a chance so breeders just keep breeding their positive horses. I
really respected her for having her stallion tested before standing him.
I wish there were more breeders out there like her.
kcar...@u.washington.edu
Brand <cbr...@nwnet.net> writes:
> Yes I *DO* expect people with HYPP positive horses to stop breeding (or
> at least cull any offspring that carries the HYPP gene.). I don't care if
> they will lose money, these breeders are polluting the gene pool and
> passing on a painful genetic disorder (have you ever seen a horse have an
> attack?)
good for you Carol. Once again I refer people to UC Davis Genetics Web site
this time the HYPP page http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/hypp.html
Kris Carroll
kcar...@u.washington.edu
Deborah Stevenson
(snip)
>IMO, breeding to them only makes things worse. I would
>rather have a safe, healthy foal with +okay+ conformation and bloodlines
>than an HYPP positive foal with excellent conformation and incredible
>bloodlines ....
Incredible sure seems like the word, doesn't it? Beautiful, capable, and
apt to have its guts implode at any time.
There are so many genetic problems in horses and for that matter in dogs
too that cause the recipients of the genes a ton of trouble even if the
passers on weren't particularly afflicted. I can't think of anything
else that's a simple dominant and can be tested for; that could be
controlled simply by not breeding the positives, who are easily
identified; that is, in short, eradicable. Not CID, not canine seizures or
hip dysplasia...
Breeding, IMHO, involves a consideration of more futures than simply the
breeder's. There are enough horses out there for everybody--this isn't a
charitable act you're performing. To deliberately breed a positive horse
or breed to a positive horse seems to me tantamount to saying you deny
responsibility for the quality of future generations, and that you
consider your right to bring horse babies into the world whenever you
choose to supersede unknown owners' right to own a healthy horse.
I would, of course, agree, that it would help if people make positive
horses market-undesirable by not buying them or breeding to them, but if
they're being told what some people are saying--"It's easily manageable, don't
listen to people's scare stories"--then they're not in a position to decide
properly.
It just seems a terrible shame that the one genetic problem that can
actually be cleared up is being perpetuated for, IMHO, little good reason.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Backseat breeder, as it were, in Champaign, IL, USA
Deb Messner
lines that has been tested HYPP N/N. I would +never+ have bred her to
+any+ stallion that did not have proof that he is N/N.
If there is a problem, why continue to breed? I understand it's a
money thing, but I think it's also up to the mare owners to be educated
and understand the disease. If you breed to a positive stallion, then
you accept the consequences. There are some *excellent* QH stallions
out there that are currently standing even though they are HYPP
positive. IMO, breeding to them only makes things worse. I would
rather have a safe, healthy foal with +okay+ conformation and bloodlines
than an HYPP positive foal with excellent conformation and incredible
bloodlines (the stud I bred to has excellent conformation and
bloodlines, so I'm very excited about what the foal is going to look
like!).
Just my opinion, but there's just too many risks involved. Sure, there
are horses that are positive that never show signs of the disease. But
how do we REALLY know that the foal will not carry the problem? It's
too risky to invest money in a horse that may be unuseable in the
future.
Debbie
mes...@duq3.cc.duq.edu
Deb Messner
>In <45qcld$8...@godot.cc.duq.edu> Deb Messner <mes...@duq3.cc.duq.edu> writes:
>
>(snip)
>
>>rather have a safe, healthy foal with +okay+ conformation and bloodlines
>>than an HYPP positive foal with excellent conformation and incredible
>
>Incredible sure seems like the word, doesn't it? Beautiful, capable, and
>apt to have its guts implode at any time.
Isn't that the truth? It's amazing that 'reputable' breeders continue to stand poitive studs and breed positive mares. What's the =
point? Seems like there's too much at risk - in money, time, quality, everything! It's a shame that they continue to do it!
I suppose the only way to stop it is for mare owners to refuse to breed to such stallions. It may seem silly, but think about it - =
no mares coming in for breeding means not 'standing' stud.
I don't think that the positive horses should all be destroyed. And true, just because a stallion is positive does not mean that he=
will pass it on to his foals (there are many Impressive babies that are negative, etc.). But is it *really* worth it? The gene po=
ol in QH's is screwed up enough as it is!
I love the breed dearly, but money just seems to get in the way of the health and well-being of the horses, and the education of uns=
uspecting buyers, breeders, etc.
Debbie Messner
mes...@duq3.cc.duq.edu
Marcy Jackson
Johnsen <ste...@selway.umt.edu> writes:
>
> I said in another post about some N/H horses not showing any
>signs whatsoever. Well, postassium rich foods tend to cause HYPP
>attacks very easily. And alfalfa hay is supposed to trigger a
>reaction as well. Several of the people I know who have, shall we say
>"non-reactive" HYPP N/H horses, have fed alfalfa and everything else
>that you feed any other horse and still have not had problems. Where
>as some of the HYPP N/H horses so much as look at alfalfa and have a
>reaction (not literally, but you know what I mean.)
> Just some more thoughts to ponder.
>
Everything you have said is almost verbatim to what I am hearing here.
I'm in North Texas. What part of the country are you in. I was
wondering if people are having better luck with HyPP in certain parts
of the country such as in more temperate climates.
Any evidence that certain lines of 'Impressive' horses are more prone
to being "non-reactive" versus HyPP carriers in other 'Impressive'
lines?
I also heard that the top 11 of 15 QH Halter sires carry the defect.
And supposedly show records are showing that the carriers are doing
significantly better in halter classes than their non-carrier
Impressive-bred counterparts. I'm unsure of the source of this since I
heard it secondhand.
Marcy
--
Carol Brand
On 13 Oct 1995, John Rogers wrote:
> 1. As long as the stallion owner or seller advertises the horse as
> being HYPP pos, and makes a reasonable effort to ensure the client or
> buyer understands that, then more power to 'em.
>
> 2. We bought an Impressive bred stallion a couple of years ago for a
> song. Nice stallion, or we wouldn't have bought him. Hadn't been
> tested for HYPP. Took a chance, bought him, tested him, came up
> positive on one side. Bred him to half a dozen or so mares making full
> disclosure, gelded him, sold him. He made one hell of a nice gelding!
> Foals were all N/N.
Caveat Emptor??? Well that should ensure that there is still a healthy
market for a sub-optimal product. I don't think that the average lay
person really understands what it means to have a HYPP positive horse. I
know a co-worker (typical backyard owner who is looking for a new horse)
had never even heard of the disorder.
If you are a quarter horse breeder, I have some questions and comments for
you...
First, why in the hell would you buy a *breeding* stallion without
testing him?
Why would you knowingly bred an animal with a profound genetic flaw? What
ever happened to *IMPROVING* the breed? I'd say you got lucky. What if
all of the foals had all turned up HYPP positive? Then what would you
have done?
Oh and BTW... if he was such a good stallion, why did you geld him?
What is "full disclosure?" Did you tell mare owners, "Gosh our
stallion is pretty, but there is a good chance that his babies will have
violent, painful epileptic fits that could result in death." Did you
show them a video of a horse having a seizure? (If you've ever seen a
horse have a seizure, it is something you will never forget...)
> 3. Check into diet. My wife says it has something to do with
> likelihood of attacks. I'm not that deep into it, and she's not here
> at the moment (helping a neighbor with a colicky horse, of course).
A low potassium diet (as well as medication) can help, but it doesn't
make the problem go away. Heck it doesn't even keep it in check some of
the time.
Since owners and breeders of HYPP positive quarter horses obviously
can not police themselves, I believe it is up to the AQHA to refuse to
register all HYPP positive horses.
-Carol
Samuel C. Stamps
>
>What is "full disclosure?" Did you tell mare owners, "Gosh our
>stallion is pretty, but there is a good chance that his babies will
have
>violent, painful epileptic fits that could result in death." Did you
>show them a video of a horse having a seizure? (If you've ever seen a
>horse have a seizure, it is something you will never forget...)
>
>I have been around an HYPP horse that was having seizures and that is
something that I will NEVER forget. He was a danger to both himself
and the people around him. Its not like we got any warning that this
was going to happen. Its for that reason that I won't have an HYPP
positive horse on my property. Sorry I don't mean to sound rude but
its not worth the money to me to put myself in danger. Even with
management stress can start off an episode so how am I going to know
that the stress of a horse coming to my place isn't going to start the
ball rolling?
>
>Since owners and breeders of HYPP positive quarter horses obviously
>can not police themselves, I believe it is up to the AQHA to refuse to
>register all HYPP positive horses.
>
>-Carol
I agree with you Carol. In fact I think that AQHA should make a
notation on the horses papers that they are in fact positive. I would
be even happier if they would refuse to register any horses out of HYPP
pos. parents. If this would happen we could concievably (SP) get rid
of this disease in the next 3-4 generations.
JMHO
Kathy
Hidden Ponds Farm
John Rogers
>person really understands what it means to have a HYPP positive horse.
I
>know a co-worker (typical backyard owner who is looking for a new
horse)
>had never even heard of the disorder.
You're right, the average lay person does not understand, and the half
dozen mare owners, save one, were pretty much typical backyard owners.
For exactly that reason we went to great lengths, including
photocopying information for them, on HYPP.
>If you are a quarter horse breeder, I have some questions and comments
for
>you...
Not, but go ahead.
>First, why in the hell would you buy a *breeding* stallion without
>testing him?
Because the price was right and he would've been gone if we waited for
test results. The idea was if it didn't work out we could still geld
him and come out okay.
>Why would you knowingly bred an animal with a profound genetic flaw?
What
>ever happened to *IMPROVING* the breed? I'd say you got lucky. What
if
>all of the foals had all turned up HYPP positive? Then what would you
>have done?
Well, that goes back to caveat emptor. There is obviously a market for
HYPP pos horses. There is a large group of people hung up on
Impressive and his get. They want horses.
>Oh and BTW... if he was such a good stallion, why did you geld him?
Because he was HYPP pos. We recouped our investment and chalked it up
to experience.
>What is "full disclosure?" Did you tell mare owners, "Gosh our
>stallion is pretty, but there is a good chance that his babies will
have
>violent, painful epileptic fits that could result in death." Did you
>show them a video of a horse having a seizure? (If you've ever seen a
>horse have a seizure, it is something you will never forget...)
Already covered above. Didn't know there was a video. Please post
info, I'd like to see it.
>A low potassium diet (as well as medication) can help, but it doesn't
>make the problem go away. Heck it doesn't even keep it in check some
of
>the time.
I obviously know there is nothing that "makes it go away," this was in
response to a question on ways to deal with the situation.
>Since owners and breeders of HYPP positive quarter horses obviously
>can not police themselves, I believe it is up to the AQHA to refuse to
>register all HYPP positive horses.
I disagree. Buying an HYPP pos horse is a choice made by the buyer,
unless the buyer doesn't know what HYPP is, of course. I believe full
disclosure should be made prior to the sale or breeding. I believe
disclosure should be in writing, signed by both parties, that this
should be and AQHA, APHA requirement, and violators should be punished.
I believe it is the buyers responsibility to research HYPP for
him/herself after disclosure. People knowingly buy HYPP pos horses
every day, for whatever reason. I believe it is their right to do so.
I would not do so again, although I obviously did once. I admit I got
lucky. I consider myself fortunate. I do feel though, it is an issue
of personal choice.
Deborah Stevenson
>As far as where I am coming from, this is the bottom line:
>No one should tell someone else what they can and cannot do. Period.
Aside from my larger challenges to this statement :-), then I would
suggest that registration, which almost invariably tells you what you can
and cannot do, is itself a problem with this viewpoint. We can save the
discussion of the flaws in anarchy for another space, but registries have
traditionally had restrictions. That's the point of a registry, after
all--if they can't tell me what to do, I can presumably register my old
lab-basset cross as a quarter horse--and she's been dead for ten years ;-).
If one accepts the ability of registries to tell people what to do (which I
not only accept but support in theory, although I object to some of the
specific restrictions), then I would argue that HYPP is a particularly good
restriction to make. I thought that Martha C.'s point about making it at
least as problematic as extra white (and ain't that a pathetic contrast
right there?) was a good example.
As long as we can't legally own, castrate, or put down other human beings
I don't think relating this to human genetic disorders works as an argument.
Animals have been traditionally bred--arguably without the free choice
humans have--for millenia to produce specific characteristics. I can't
see how breeding *for* specific genetic traits in horses would be ethically
acceptable if one finds breeding specific genetic traits out ethically
offensive.
>I would like to see it stopped, but not with
>an AQHA ban. I don't think it will solve anything. If anything, it will
>just allow the horses with HYPP to be bred in such a way that we will no
>longer be able to keep track of them. They will be bred to backyard
>grade horses more often and we will lose sight of it's progress.
This is an objection I think worth considering, although I think the
plummeting market value of a horse that produces pretty but completely
unregisterable babies will diminish breedings considerably. I also think
that's why alternatives such as prominently publishing the names of those
horses who've tested positive are problematic--fewer horses would
probably be tested as a result.
I'm not a QH person at all, but genetic diseases are a problem in all
animals, and the problem of dealing with them is of interest to all. I
agree that more education would be a good thing, but I also think the
desired end result is to eradicate HYPP and that it could be done more
effectively, without causing people to spend money on horses and vet
bills that they would otherwise avoid, by the AQHA working more directly
on the problem.
Just my 2 opinionated pennies :-).
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Un-Impressive in Champaign, IL, USA
Martha Cather
>
>>Since owners and breeders of HYPP positive quarter horses obviously
>>can not police themselves, I believe it is up to the AQHA to refuse to
>>register all HYPP positive horses.
>>
>
>I would like to agree with you, but I can't. Should the AQHA ban all
>breeding of horses with a bad slope to their shoulders? Should they ban
>breeding horses that have stright stifles? How bout mare that have
>smaller foals? Where do we draw the line? Can they regulate the
>breeding of more halter types or maybe an "old" style quarter should not
>be allowed to reproduce?
>
>A lot of genetic "blunders" are made everyday. Sometimes even knowingly.
> But they are done becuase some other trait is superior and therefore
>worth the chance. I, myself, have only seen one horse that came even
>close to perfect and then he had his problems, too.
>
M,
The thing is, AQHA has taken stands on genetics. Now, you must notify
them if your foal is parrot-mouthed, or is a cryptorchid, and it will
be noted on the pedigree. There is no breeding restriction enforced
against such horses, but it is at least made note of. Can't we do
that much against HYPP.
Also, they have special rules about white markings---these are genetic
traits, and obviously the overo white gene is carried in a lot of AQHA
mares, otherwise it wouldn't produce overo paint foals from breedings
between solid AHQAs and overo paints. Yet the AQHA makes a very
arbitrary decision about what is "too much" white. And it has slowly
crept upwards over the years. Now, there is a distinction about the
amount of white a non-breeding vs. breeding horse can have. Is that
not regulating genetics?
I'm not advocating against knocking out Impressive's whole line. But
it seems like it would not be all *that* bad if we could eliminate
the HYPP-bearers from breeding. After all, there are so many really
nice Impressive descendants who don't have the trait. I *like*
Noble Tradition....I think he's a gorgeous horse!
Martha in NM
email: mar...@baervan.nmt.edu
kcar...@u.washington.edu
writes:
> Kris-
> Please elaborate.
License, by definition, is freedom that allows irresponsibile use. One would
hope this was not the privilege being defended. I know from reading the UC
Davis Web site that there are 50,000 registered horses who test positive.
Continued breeding of these horses is an invitation to outside intervention.
Kris elaborates
kcar...@u.washington.edu
Maria Meister
>Since owners and breeders of HYPP positive quarter horses obviously
>can not police themselves, I believe it is up to the AQHA to refuse to
>register all HYPP positive horses.
>
>-Carol
I would like to agree with you, but I can't. Should the AQHA ban all
breeding of horses with a bad slope to their shoulders? Should they ban
breeding horses that have stright stifles? How bout mare that have
smaller foals? Where do we draw the line? Can they regulate the
breeding of more halter types or maybe an "old" style quarter should not
be allowed to reproduce?
A lot of genetic "blunders" are made everyday. Sometimes even knowingly.
But they are done becuase some other trait is superior and therefore
worth the chance. I, myself, have only seen one horse that came even
close to perfect and then he had his problems, too.
I don't think the answer is to take away people's rights to breed what
they want. I think that education is the key here. I did not know too
much about HYPP until I logged onto this group. Now that I know I will
not only make sure that I do not reproduce an HYPP horse but I also
suggest it to my friends to have their horses checked if there is a
chance that HYPP may be in the genetics. I have, however, seen
successful breedings to HYPP n/h mares that produce a negative foal.
And, they are very nice foals.
Let people make their own choice. They would have to know that an HYPP
animal will be harder to sell - word has gotten around. If they are
willing to take that chance, that is their choice.
M
Carol Brand
On 16 Oct 1995 kcar...@u.washington.edu wrote:
> In article <45ueug$f...@aimnet1.aimnet.com> Maria Meister <mar...@ect.com>
> writes:
> > As far as where I am coming from, this is the bottom line:
> > No one should tell someone else what they can and cannot do. Period.
I'm seeing Kris's postings (because UW feeds directly back to us) but not
Maria's whole post (I probably won't get Maria's posts until tomorrow).
That said, I'm going to assume that Maria's assertion is that if people
want to breed defective horses, then that is their right.
Ok... I say go for it. Breed away. But the AQHA should not register
your horses. If it is so worth it to breed a HYPP positive horse, then
you could start your own breed registry (like APHA).
If this were the case, would you keep breeding?
-Carol
Terri Isenhour
>
>
>>Since owners and breeders of HYPP positive quarter horses obviously
>>can not police themselves, I believe it is up to the AQHA to refuse to
>>register all HYPP positive horses.
>>
>>-Carol
>
>I would like to agree with you, but I can't. Should the AQHA ban all
>breeding of horses with a bad slope to their shoulders? Should they ban
>breeding horses that have stright stifles? How bout mare that have
>smaller foals? Where do we draw the line? Can they regulate the
>breeding of more halter types or maybe an "old" style quarter should not
>be allowed to reproduce?
>
>A lot of genetic "blunders" are made everyday. Sometimes even knowingly.
> But they are done becuase some other trait is superior and therefore
>worth the chance. I, myself, have only seen one horse that came even
>close to perfect and then he had his problems, too.
>
>
Are you saying that people should keep reproducing the disease?
Sorry, I think a lot of people on this newsgroup are going to flame
you on this one sweety! You obviously have never seen a horse
go down from this horrible godforsaken disease. In your post, you
said...."I didn't know much about HYPP before I started reading the
newsgroup." Well, I think you ought to do a lot of reading up on
this disease before you say it's ok to keep reproducing it!!!!
Steve Johnsen
> The thing is, AQHA has taken stands on genetics. Now, you must notify
> them if your foal is parrot-mouthed, or is a cryptorchid, and it will
> be noted on the pedigree. There is no breeding restriction enforced
> against such horses, but it is at least made note of. Can't we do
> that much against HYPP.
I'd like to make a correction. Parrot-mouthed and cryptorchid horses
not only have the genetic defect put on their papers but they must also
be gelded (or spayed) prior to registration. No, they are not allowed to
be bred BECAUSE AQHA doesn't want this spread.
Christine L. Stevens
>
>Since owners and breeders of HYPP positive quarter horses obviously
>can not police themselves, I believe it is up to the AQHA to refuse to
>register all HYPP positive horses.
>
>-Carol
You seem to be overlooking the benefit of AQHA registration of HYPP
horses (please clarify what you mean by positive, I've lost track, is it
any horse that is H/H or H/N?).
Anyway, by registering these horses, anyone contemplating breeding can
check the background of the stallion/mare in question. If these horses
aren't registered the breeder (novice or otherwise) is pretty much going
to have to take someone at their word. If the bloodline does trace back
to Impressive, they (the potential breeder) should require that the horse
be tested so that they can make an informed decision.
Anyone who is going to be breeding Quarter Horses has (IMO) an obligation
to know about HYPP and any other genetic problems that are lurking out
there. It's not up to the AQHA to protect uninformed breeders.
People need to be responsible for their own actions and decisions. Yes,
I agree that there are alot of novices out there that are taken advantage
of. By the same token, there are alot of novices that take steps to keep
from being taken advantage of. Just another day in the food chain.
Chris S.
Martha Sellers
>Since owners and breeders of HYPP positive quarter horses obviously
>can not police themselves, I believe it is up to the AQHA to refuse to
>register all HYPP positive horses.
Agreed, since it is the whole breed that is hurt when
horsey-newbies buy hypp positive horses (who else would be
that stupid?) who convulse and die.
The breed is #1 in registrations in the US partially because
of their reputation (calm, smart, versatile). We can all
connect the dots between other breed stereotypes and the
breed that that is attached to.
Flighty & spooky Arabs
Tortured & punished into Saddlebreds
action and movement
Hips go bad German Shepards
Often deaf Dalmations
These characteristics do _not_ describe, IMO, most Arabs,
Saddlebreds, Shepards or Dalmations, but when breeding
associations ignore irresponsible breeding or show
practices, the world at large responds by viewing the whole
breed with a negative stereotype.
As someone posted here so well, why does the AQHA ban
excessive white (which is not 100% predictable with a cheap
and easy genetic test of the parents) but tolerate breeding an
easily identifiable genetic flaw that creates horses who
may convulse and die horribly w/o (or even with) a specially
controlled diet?
Money and politics. Well, what the association won't do the
market will do. Sad that as a result, only the first time
horse buyers who lack a savvy trainer will be the suckers
stuck with the hypp positive horses. Great marketing
idea for America's Horse.
Martha -- who like most people, started riding on QH's
--
Martha Sellers
Oakland, California
m_se...@riem.com
Mary Healey
Maria Meister <mar...@ect.com> writes:
>
>As far as where I am coming from, this is the bottom line:
>
>No one should tell someone else what they can and cannot do. Period.
So I shouldn't tell Larry to quit molesting the sheep? And the nice
policeman shouldn't tell those kids down the block that breaking
into people's houses and making a terrible mess is JUST NOT DONE?
It isn't a matter of "no harm, no foul" in these cases, and the
price one pays for community living is a *lot* of things you cannot
do because doing so would harm others.
>... Should I
>tell all other mother-wanna-be's that they cannot have children because
>they may have a genetic disorder that they should not pass on?
Only the ones that are selling their children - passing the problem
on to someone else.
>I have been following this HYPP thing for some time now - it has come up
>in many different threads. I would like to see HYPP stopped, but not with
>an AQHA ban.
The question is whether the AQHA community needs to take action. If
HYPP is "harmful", then the answer is yes. Education without
effective screening and penalties can be counterproductive.
Consider the case of the German Shepherd Dog, "those dogs with bad
hips". Even with screening and education, what the general public
has learned is the GSDs have "bad hips", when in fact GSDs have
generally better hips than many other breeds (Saint Bernards and
Boykin Spaniels spring immediately to mind). Does the AQHA really
want "All America's Horse" to become known as "those horses with
fits"?
--
Mary & the Ames (Iowa, USA) National Zoo:
Raise a Fund ("Regis", 10 yo TB); ANZ Sam-I-Am ("Sam", 5 yo ACDx);
ANZ Noah Doll, CGC, OFA Good ("Noah", 2 yo ACD); kitties from h*ll;
finches; fish; Guinea pigs (a1....@isumvs.iastate.edu)
Martha Cather
>Carol Brand <cbr...@nwnet.net> wrote:
>
>
>Agreed, since it is the whole breed that is hurt when
>horsey-newbies buy hypp positive horses (who else would be
>that stupid?) who convulse and die.
I recently met a man who has been breeding champion AQHA
halter horses for over 30 years. Last year he sold a horse at
the World Show sale for well over $20,000. The only reason this
horse was tested for HYPP was because he had to be to go through the
sale. This man stands at least 4 other stallions of Impressive breeding,
most through Obvious Conclusion, and none of them are tested and he does
not believe in the testing. He says it is a bunch of baloney. Now this
fellow sells horses to buyers all over the country, and to people who
are very experienced horsemen. But they are interested in the money to
be made, or the beauty of the horse, and refuse to believe that with
a little work now, we could eliminate HYPP problems, or at least send
it back to relative obscurity.
And Steve, thanks for the correction. I was looking at the '92 handbook
which only makes the breeding stock distinction for Appendix horses
seeking a numbered certificate.
I have a gorgeous colt, a grandson of Doc O'lena, palomino color to die
for. He's gelded. He was a cryptorchid (monorchid actually). One local
vet wanted to just take one testicle and "usually the other will come on
down". I went to a more reputable fellow and watched both nuts come out.
That hidden one was buried elbow-deep. No way would it have ever "come out".
I felt a bit better known I had saved somebody years down the line the
trouble of figuring out why this nice yellow horse was a bit studdy.
It cost me an extra two hundred dollars, but I think it was worth it.
Susan T. Groh
birds, etc.) ignore obvious genetic disorders under the flag of freedom
of choice and "it isn't really a/my/our problem" or "don't throw out the
baby with the bath water", I have to ask a question or two.. .
Where is the sense of responsibility to our fellow humans and animals?
Why would you want to perpetuate a problem which brings potential pain
and suffering to the animal and to the human who owns the animal?
Just because folks are newbies to a sport or hobby doesn't mean they
should be eligible for victimization at the hands of the "experienced".
If folks like Impressive's get they should just realize it is a darn
shame that his looks need to be eliminated from the gene pool. In the
short term it is a shame, in the long run a blessing for future get of
healthy QHs and the people who will own them.
IMHO.
Best wishes,
Susan
Steve Johnsen
> In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.951016...@baker.nwnet.net>,
> Carol Brand <cbr...@nwnet.net> wrote:
> >
> {...other stuff on HYPP snipped......}
> >
> >Since owners and breeders of HYPP positive quarter horses obviously
> >can not police themselves, I believe it is up to the AQHA to refuse to
> >register all HYPP positive horses.
> >
> >-Carol
>
> Of course then someone would probably come up with the AHPHBA (American
> HYPP Positive Horse Breeders Association) or maybe just the AHHA
> (American HYPP Horse Association). Well, you have to admit there's
> precedent.........
>
Don't laugh. Have you heard of the American Halter Pleasure
Quarter Horse Association? Right now it is getting bigger and bigger.
If AQHA decides to ban HYPP positive horses from registration they'll
just lose members and the Halter Pleasure Quarter Horse Association
will just become a registry and start registering horses and people with
HYPP positive horses will go to them. And in the process AQHA will lose
alot of its support and much of the money that is behind it.
Just something else to ponder.
Christine L. Stevens
purchasers) should not, from a common sense point of view, knowningly
breed/purchase animals (of any species) with genetic defects. If certain
individuals want to take a calculated risk, IMO, that's up to them.
Whether or not they sell a defective animal to an unwitting victim is
between them and their conscience. If actual fraud is involved, there is
legal recourse.
One thing that I'd like to ask those who have been promoting an AQHA ban
of HYPP positive horses is what you propose to do with the HYPP horses
that are already registered? If they are kicked out of the registry, do
they lose their points and any Incentive Fund money?
Chris S.
Martha Sellers
>One thing that I'd like to ask those who have been promoting an AQHA ban
>of HYPP positive horses is what you propose to do with the HYPP horses
>that are already registered?
I wouldn't kick them out, my concern is about propagating
this defect. I would require Hypp testing on any stallion
or mare before the offspring would be accepted for registry.
I would mark the papers of any breedable animal who tests
positive ("Hypp positive, offspring ineligible for AQHA
registry").
This doesn't protect the naive from buying a QH gelding
today with Hypp, but in a generation those registry papers
will be a very cheap guarentee against hypp. I think it
would add value for the low end buyers who are looking at
both grade and QH prospects.
Martha
C.M.Newell
that doing a prepurchase exam on a QH without doing bloodtesting for
HYPP could be actionable as malpractice....
--C.M.Newell, DVM
"The saints each had his purpose
But you're not one of them
You are not the worst of fools
Nor yet the best of men"
--R.Hunter
Christine L. Stevens
something just occurred to me. It seems that most of the people who are
critizing the AQHA for allowing registration of HYPP positive horses have
made statements about REjoining if the AQHA shapes up (my words).
My understanding of how rules are changed is that the membership can
petition to have rules examined, contact their regional representatives,
and in general make a difference.
If you feel strongly about this topic, make a difference: . Arguing in
this newsgroup isn't going to change AQHA rules. It will however provide
valuable information on both sides for people who didn't previously know
anything about HYPP.
Christine L. Stevens
>
>I would mark the papers of any breedable animal who tests
>positive ("Hypp positive, offspring ineligible for AQHA
>registry").
>
What if the horse is bred, the offspring tested with N/N results?
Martha Sellers
>Have you heard of the American Halter Pleasure
>Quarter Horse Association? Right now it is getting bigger and bigger.
>If AQHA decides to ban HYPP positive horses from registration they'll
>just lose members and the Halter Pleasure Quarter Horse Association
>will just become a registry and start registering horses and people with
>HYPP positive horses will go to them. And in the process AQHA will lose
>alot of its support and much of the money that is behind it.
The AQHA may lose members and money in the short run if they
ban breeding Hypp positive horses.
But what is a breed registry? It only has its credibility.
Let's see, I want to buy my 8yo a horse. I see two ads in
the paper, both nice horses. One is registered with AQHA
which has, in a 2 year period, eliminated Hypp. The other
is registered with the Assn that doesn't "tell people what
to do". Both are an hour's drive away. Which one are you
gonna look at?
The purpose of a registry is to encourage certain traits,
and discourage others. That takes a very small part of the
Caveat Emptor out of the purchase decision.
Encourage versatililty. Encourage athletic ability. The
AQHA does this thru its original stock, and thru its
shows/awards programs.
Discourage excess white. Discourage parrot mouth. The AQHA
does this thru denying or stamping registration papers.
Discourage dangerous and terrifying fits that can kill the
horse. Discourage a syndrome that might require a lifetime
of careful feeding (anyone here ever have trouble with a
boarding barn's interpretation of feeding instructions?)
Linda Merims once posted a wonderful article arguing that
gaited horse breed growth was being hurt by public
perception of torturous show practices. The QH association
has its own long-run perception to worry about. Even if
that costs a few members today. IMO, of course ;-)
Phetsy Calderon
>Don't laugh. Have you heard of the American Halter Pleasure
>Quarter Horse Association? Right now it is getting bigger and bigger.
>If AQHA decides to ban HYPP positive horses from registration they'll
>just lose members and the Halter Pleasure Quarter Horse Association
>will just become a registry and start registering horses and people with
>HYPP positive horses will go to them.
Good! The rest of us who are interested in sound horses will have a simple
means of avoiding HYPP horses like the plague, and those whose interests
are in HYPP horses can happily consort together.
> And in the process AQHA will lose
>alot of its support and much of the money that is behind it.
A) AQHA is going to be the last solvent horse outfit on the planet
B) The Association will _gain_ a lot of support with people like me
"coming back to the fold" when we discover that the sound QH lives
and won't be dinged for not being the "typey tank" HYPP horse.
Phetsy
cald...@popcorn.llnl.gov
nq8140600-reiner
>Where is the sense of responsibility to our fellow humans and animals?
>Why would you want to perpetuate a problem which brings potential pain
>and suffering to the animal and to the human who owns the animal?
>
>Just because folks are newbies to a sport or hobby doesn't mean they
>should be eligible for victimization at the hands of the "experienced".
>If folks like Impressive's get they should just realize it is a darn
>shame that his looks need to be eliminated from the gene pool. In the
>short term it is a shame, in the long run a blessing for future get of
>healthy QHs and the people who will own them.
Agreed! In the past month I have seen my cousin pressured to buy a QH with
HYPP and another that was showing navicular changes. This horse was for her
son who is battling leukemia (the trainers were aware of this!). However,
AQHA has no qualms about refusing to register horses with white markings in
the wrong places! Face it...its all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Sharon Carnes
rei...@ih4gp.att.com
P.S. Her son did get a fine Barpasser gelding, sane and sound!
Maria Meister
>Encourage versatililty. Encourage athletic ability. The
>AQHA does this thru its original stock, and thru its
>shows/awards programs.
>
Martha-
A lot of what you wrote makes sense. I still don't think an AQHA ban
will stop HYPP, but I do understand why you are so persistant. It is a
terrible thing to have happen to an animal that you love.
I think that the statement above brings us to another point, though. I
have watched the judging ring take on many different preferences, There
have been many changes over the years. When I first started riding
Western Pleasure horses, for example, they insisted that we have the
horses heads tucked into their chests. I quit showing Pleasure. Then I
started to see a change and I jumped back into it. Then we were required
to have their noses on the floor and all their weight on the front end.
I quit showing Pleasure. I have not gone back, but I see many changes
with some judges that I like.
Anyway, to get to the point, I think some of the education as well as the
stopage of the disease could come from, in part, the show ring. Horses
that are pinned in Halter tend to not be what you have described above.
Horses that have HYPP tend to be pinned and therefore, people want to
breed their horses to them. Maybe time could be better spent trying to
convince judges that the "prettiest" horse doesn't make a very good mount
in most cases.
See, people want these horses and are willing to pay top dollar for them
because they win. I think the big question is: Should these horses be
winning?
M
Sda...@vvm.com
>mar...@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Martha Sellers) wrote:
>>Encourage versatililty. Encourage athletic ability. The
>>AQHA does this thru its original stock, and thru its
>>shows/awards programs.
Absolutely, I've already applied to join the NFQHA.
>A lot of what you wrote makes sense. I still don't think an AQHA ban
>will stop HYPP, but I do understand why you are so persistant. It is a
>terrible thing to have happen to an animal that you love.
It's the only way to stop it. Primarily because too many people think
it's "worth the risk". Another defense I often hear, is "it's not
that big a problem". Well folks it's gaining steadily, because people
will not self-regulate.
(snip)
>I quit showing Pleasure. I have not gone back, but I see many changes
>with some judges that I like.
But there are still many not penalizing the peanut rollers.
>Anyway, to get to the point, I think some of the education as well as the
>stopage of the disease could come from, in part, the show ring. Horses
>that are pinned in Halter tend to not be what you have described above.
>Horses that have HYPP tend to be pinned and therefore, people want to
>breed their horses to them. Maybe time could be better spent trying to
>convince judges that the "prettiest" horse doesn't make a very good mount
>in most cases.
Sorry, this is a breeding problem, not a judging problem. Judges
can't know the bloodlines of the horses in the ring.
>See, people want these horses and are willing to pay top dollar for them
>because they win. I think the big question is: Should these horses be
>winning?
Not always the case, I've never had any Impressive stuff. I never
liked riding them.
There are too many good Quarter Horses out there to jeapodize the
breed by continiuing to allow this problem to worsen.
Just my $.02
Susan Dangar
Standan Quarter Horses
Lampasas, TX
John & Lisa Grasser
<christine...@aero.org> writes:
>One thing that I'd like to ask those who have been promoting an AQHA
>ban of HYPP positive horses is what you propose to do with the HYPP
>horses that are already registered? If they are kicked out of the
>registry, do they lose their points and any Incentive Fund money?
>
>
I wouldn't advocate kicking any horses out who are already registered.
As another poster said, spay and geld all such horses so that they
cannot continue to pass the genes on. Or, the registry can simply
refuse to register any offspring of HYPP-positive horses. The
individual horses can continue to compete, and add value to their
HYPP-negative siblings, as well as add value to the trainer's
reputation.
While I do support a ban on HYPP-positive horses, enforcing such a ban
would no doubt be a big expense to the AQHA. Hiding an HYPP-positive
test result would be a lot easier than hiding a parrot mouth or
excessive white. I've heard of a lot of registration-paper fraud in
the Arabian breed (no flame intended). Is there similar fraud in all
breeds? Would a ban on HYPP *really* be able to erradicate the
problem? Can anyone really answer that question?
--Lisa G., taking the cynical approach
Vista, Ca
gra...@ix.netcom.com
Martha Cather
>One thing that I'd like to ask those who have been promoting an AQHA ban
>of HYPP positive horses is what you propose to do with the HYPP horses
>that are already registered? If they are kicked out of the registry, do
>they lose their points and any Incentive Fund money?
>
>
Chris,
I would not kick any presently-registered horses out of the registry. But
I would require blood testing of all quarterhorses, phasing it in *just like*
they are doing the DNA testing right now. Any horses that were found to be
positive would be marked as such on their certificates and not allowed to have
registerable offspring. Even those that produced some N/N babies, because
that would make it too much of a temptation to keep trying to produce those
babies. Does anybody know what Ensign Farms did with the babies that
they offered to buy back? (they ran an ad offering to buy back any foals
that tested positive at time of weaning....wonder what happened to those
babies). I would not require that Incentive Fund money be paid back, but
I would sure not allow the enrollment of HYPP positive horses into that
program.
I know it sounds harsh, but that is exactly what AQHA does with excess white
babies. Can't register 'em, can't show AQHA, can't breed for AQHA babies.
And until the recent sort of merging between what AQHA calls excess white
and what APHA calls minimal white, there were many that could not be put
into any breed organization.
This is just taking it back one step further and preventing parents from \
producing foals (kind of like if you were to ban the breeding of a mare
who produced an excess white foal). I think it is worth it in terms of the
benefits gained from reducing or elimenating HYPP.
Just another two cents from a QH owner,
Samuel C. Stamps
>
>Maria Meister <mar...@ect.com> wrote:
>
>>mar...@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Martha Sellers) wrote:
>
>>>Encourage versatililty. Encourage athletic ability. The
>>>AQHA does this thru its original stock, and thru its
>>>shows/awards programs.
>
>Absolutely, I've already applied to join the NFQHA.
>
you in Colorado Springs next July!
>For all of you that are interested in NFQHA. We are going to follow
the form follows function method very strictly for halter. Which, IMHO
is something that really isn't being done these days.
Kathy
Hidden Ponds Farm
Reg. Foundation Quarter HOrses
Lucinda L. Hensley
Steve Johnsen <ste...@selway.umt.edu> wrote:
>
>Don't laugh. Have you heard of the American Halter Pleasure
>Quarter Horse Association? Right now it is getting bigger and bigger.
>If AQHA decides to ban HYPP positive horses from registration they'll
>just lose members and the Halter Pleasure Quarter Horse Association
>will just become a registry and start registering horses and people with
>
I wasn't really "laughing".. well, maybe a wry smile. It would suit
me fine if the AQHA lost most of the halter crowd. I like a horse
that can do--not just stand around and look pretty. I wouldn't trade
my old Doc Bar mare for all the Impressive get you could scrounge up.
I don't exactly support the AQHA's ban on "excessive" white but the
original reasoning I *believe* had to do with the fact that excessive
white was a liability in a working horse because of sun exposure.
You can't tell me that HYPP isn't a hell of a lot more problematic than
a little sunburn. Not that the majority of Impressive horses would
have the foggiest notion what to do with a cow anyway.....
JMHO
Cindy Hensley
hen...@med.unc.edu
Martha Sellers
>Horses
>that are pinned in Halter tend to not be what you have described above.
[athletic, that is]
Hallelujah there.
>Maybe time could be better spent trying to
>convince judges that the "prettiest" horse doesn't make a very good mount
>in most cases.
I agree. In fact, I would be in favor of a performance test
requirement for breeding stock. Sure keeps warmbloods from
the type of speculative breeding bubble the Arabs
experienced.
This newsgroup has a definite "pretty is as pretty does"
bias, but given the size of the halter industry, somebody
must like "breedin' for leadin'"
Corey Lee Bishop
: I think it's safe to say that we all agree that everyone (breeders and
: breed/purchase animals (of any species) with genetic defects. If certain
: individuals want to take a calculated risk, IMO, that's up to them.
: Whether or not they sell a defective animal to an unwitting victim is
: between them and their conscience. If actual fraud is involved, there is
: legal recourse.
: One thing that I'd like to ask those who have been promoting an AQHA ban
: of HYPP positive horses is what you propose to do with the HYPP horses
: that are already registered? If they are kicked out of the registry, do
: they lose their points and any Incentive Fund money?
If a QH has too much white on him/her (a much less dangerous thing than
HYPP) the papers are marked NON-BREEDING STOCK. Why can't the same be
done with HYPP positive horses? Why can't they be bloodtyped and HYPP
tested at the same time? I have Arabs, they are routinely bloodtyped
for registration. If they ever come up with a test for CIDS, most Arab
breeders I know would be very happy to have the horses tested for CIDS
at the same time they are bloodtyped. That way, the genetic defect
could be culled out in a very short time.
Sue
: Chris S.
Christine L. Stevens
>In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.951018...@selway.umt.edu>,
>Steve Johnsen <ste...@selway.umt.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Don't laugh. Have you heard of the American Halter Pleasure
>>Quarter Horse Association? Right now it is getting bigger and bigger.
>>If AQHA decides to ban HYPP positive horses from registration they'll
>>just lose members and the Halter Pleasure Quarter Horse Association
>>will just become a registry and start registering horses and people with
>>HYPP positive horses will go to them. And in the process AQHA will lose
>>alot of its support and much of the money that is behind it.
>>
>
>I wasn't really "laughing".. well, maybe a wry smile. It would suit
>have the foggiest notion what to do with a cow anyway.....
>
>JMHO
>
>Cindy Hensley
>hen...@med.unc.edu
>
>
"pushed" cattle. I'll admit he wasn't as into it as my friend's Zippo
Pine Bar gelding.
A horse is a horse of course of course ..... but only if we let them.
Chris S.
Christine L. Stevens
>
>If a QH has too much white on him/her (a much less dangerous thing than
>HYPP) the papers are marked NON-BREEDING STOCK. Why can't the same be
>done with HYPP positive horses? Why can't they be bloodtyped and HYPP
>tested at the same time? I have Arabs, they are routinely bloodtyped
>for registration. If they ever come up with a test for CIDS, most Arab
>breeders I know would be very happy to have the horses tested for CIDS
>at the same time they are bloodtyped. That way, the genetic defect
>could be culled out in a very short time.
>
>
>Sue
>
There's no reason why the papers of HYPP positive horses couldn't be
marked as you suggest. I believe that the AQHA is in the process of
implementing DNA registration of all breeding stock in a phased approach.
As I'm a big-time gelding fan, I honestly don't keep up with all the
breeding/registration requirements.
Most Quarter Horse breeders are genuinely concerned with the viability of
the breed, at least the ones I'd like to think are in it for the long
haul. I don't know anything about CIDS and how it manifests itself so I
can't draw any comparisons between that and HYPP. If there is alot of
money invested in CIDS Arabians that are winning big bucks, and the
disease doesn't always show symptoms, I imagine there are some Arabian
breeders out there that are just as unscruplous (sp?) as some of the
Quarter Horse breeders that are just in it for the money.
The question I posed was directed at those who are proposing that the
AQHA refuse to register any HYPP horses at all. Lack of registration
prohibits participation in AQHA events and subsequently participation in
the Incentive Fund (money awarded to eligible horses based on the number
of AQHA points earned in a calendar year).
Christine L. Stevens
>> Maria Meister <mar...@ect.com> wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>> But there are still many not penalizing the peanut rollers.
>>
judges (double judged show) disqualified ALL but one of the 20 some
horses in the SR Western Pleasure. Over the last several years, I
remember seeing lots of previous winners DQ'd. I think it depends on the
judge, the show management selects that judges, talk to them if you
aren't happy about the judging.
>> Not always the case, I've never had any Impressive stuff. I never
>> liked riding them.
>>
I lost track of who said the above, but I'd like to ask the community how
many go along with the, IMO, bogus theory of genetic personality traits?
Chris S.
Michelle Clinard
>
>I lost track of who said the above, but I'd like to ask the community how
>many go along with the, IMO, bogus theory of genetic personality traits?
>
>Chris S.
>
I go along with it, to a point. I've got a 6-year-old mare by my cousin's
stallion, Casper. The mare's name is Cassie (Casper's Melody). Cassie is
smarter than me by far, and has tons and tons of personality. I've had this
mare since she was 7 months old, so I know her well.
I've spent a very short amount of time with another cousin's mare, Pootsie.
Pootsie is Cassie's 1/2 sister, also by Casper. The thing that struck me
right when I met the mare was that she sure acted a lot like Cassie -- same
facial expressions, same curiosity, same high intelligence. Lots of her
"personality traits" were so much like Cassie's I was amazed!
Then I took another mare, Lalette, to break for my cousin. Lalette shared
many of the same traits as Cassie and Pootsie, though not quite to the
extent as Cassie and Pootsie. All 3 are 1/2 sisters by Casper.
On the one hand, all 3 mares had different mothers, and thus different
environments. So I'd draw from this that many of their personality traits
came from their father, who was never around, thus personality is genetic
to some extent.
On the other hand, Casper's babies tend to look like him, especially in the
face. So the question becomes "how much of what we call personality is due
solely to the physical appearance of the horse?"
I'm not offering answers, or even an opinion. I'll straddle the fence on
this one.
-Michelle (who'd rather straddle a horse than argue), Maggie (Cassie's mom),
Cassie, and Wilbur