Kicking Miniature Donkey Foal
Farm Woman
My husband and I just got a pair of mini-donkeys last week, two
jennies, one seven months old and the other nine months old. We are
new at this, and have been learning from books and the internet. The
donkeys have been buddies all along at the breeders, and the older one
is "boss." I noticed the older one kicking the younger a couple times
the first day, but she hasn't since - the breeder told me she was just
establishing dominance. The younger jenny is a total sweetheart.
Yesterday, while we were practice leading them, my jenny (the older
one) kicked me in the knee - I thought it was an exuberant accident
until she tried it again (I dodged it that time). I drew up the lead
short and brought her right back to her pen. The kick wasn't hard
enough to do more than bruise my knee, but it wasn't something I wanted
repeated. As you might guess, I've been keeping an eye on her since to
avoid another kick. The breeder told me that I should be "firm" and
tell her "No." Today, she's lifted her leg a few times in a
threatening manner during grooming, and I pushed down on the top part
of her thigh promptly and firmly, forcing the leg back down and saying
"No," in a loud, firm voice. She did manage to kick me again, very
lightly, once today, and my husband whacked her on the bottom with his
hand.
The donkeys seemed to be enjoying their walk yesterday... I assume
she's doing this to show me that she thinks that she's my boss (and I
understand that I need to teach her that bossing humans is unacceptable
behavior). Obviously, I want this to stop right now, before it becomes
a habit - if anyone could please offer any suggestions for dealing with
her? Thank you in advance...
Tom Stovall
[deletia fore and aft]
>Yesterday, while we were practice leading them, my jenny (the older
>one) kicked me in the knee - I thought it was an exuberant accident
>until she tried it again (I dodged it that time)... Today, she's >lifted her leg a few times in a threatening manner during grooming, and
>I pushed down on the top part of her thigh promptly and firmly, forcing
>the leg back down and saying "No," in a loud, firm voice. She did
>manage to kick me again, very lightly, once today, and my husband
>whacked her on the bottom with his hand...
She's already formed the habit of kicking whenever she wishes to express
her dominance. The next time she raises her leg in a threatening
manner, immediately kick her in the belly while simultaneously
expressing your disapproval verbally. Don't hit her with your hand,
don't look around for something to swat her with, just kick her smartly
in the belly anytime she even looks like she's thinking about firing.
You won't break anything and you'll damn sure get her attention.
>I assume she's doing this to show me that she thinks that she's my boss
>(and I understand that I need to teach her that bossing humans is
>unacceptable behavior). Obviously, I want this to stop right now,
>before it becomes a habit - if anyone could please offer any suggestions
>for dealing with her? Thank you in advance...
Your assessment is correct: kicking is an unacceptable and dangerous
behavior, even from a mini. Fortunately, it's an easy habit to break if
you remember that horses are NOT made out of glass.
--
Tom Stovall, CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@REMOVEwt.net (remove REMOVE)
http://www.katyforge.com
cindi
Farm Woman wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My husband and I just got a pair of mini-donkeys last week, two
> jennies, one seven months old and the other nine months old. We are
> new at this, and have been learning from books and the internet.
Hi. It's not easy to start your equine adventure with youngsters.
It's best to start with older, trained, gentle animals. You have your
work cut out for you!
> The
> donkeys have been buddies all along at the breeders, and the older
one
> is "boss." I noticed the older one kicking the younger a couple
times
> the first day, but she hasn't since - the breeder told me she was
just
> establishing dominance. The younger jenny is a total sweetheart.
All herds need a leader. There will be kicking and biting but it's
usually nothing serious. Things might stay the way they are now, or
when they get older the younger one might try to gain status.
>
> Yesterday, while we were practice leading them, my jenny (the older
> one) kicked me in the knee - I thought it was an exuberant accident
> until she tried it again (I dodged it that time). I drew up the lead
> short and brought her right back to her pen. The kick wasn't hard
> enough to do more than bruise my knee, but it wasn't something I
wanted
> repeated. As you might guess, I've been keeping an eye on her since
to
> avoid another kick. The breeder told me that I should be "firm" and
> tell her "No."
The thing of it is, donkeys don't speak English. "No" to a donkey
means you establish dominance over her - then she won't feel she has
the right to try to kick you. You should work on establishing
dominance in general to head off episodes of her trying to dominate
you, and if done effectively, that should put a stop to her trying to
kick at you. You should also react when she kicks at you by showing
her you are the boss. You do this by assertively taking her space and
causing her to yield to you, making her move her feet.
> Today, she's lifted her leg a few times in a
> threatening manner during grooming, and I pushed down on the top part
> of her thigh promptly and firmly, forcing the leg back down and
saying
> "No," in a loud, firm voice.
I don't know much about donkeys that small, but I don't think you can
actually force the leg back down. With bigger horses, donkeys or
mules, you certainly cannot physically force them to do much of
anything, short of roping various body parts. You have to convince
them that you are the boss so they won't bother trying to
kick/bite/whatever.
> She did manage to kick me again, very
> lightly, once today, and my husband whacked her on the bottom with
his
> hand.
If a horse EVER managed to actually land a kick on me, that horse would
be one VERY sorry critter. I did get kicked once when I was milling
about in the pasture with a bunch of broodmares and babies - the mares
were kicking at their foals who were older and almost ready to be
weaned, and one mare got me right in the stomach. For the next 45
minutes or so, that mare yielded her space to me and ran when I said
run and whoa-ed when I said whoa and turned when I said turn... She had
always been sort of aloof but after that she would JOG over to see me
and put her nose in the halter and was extremely submissive and
obedient to me.
> The donkeys seemed to be enjoying their walk yesterday... I assume
> she's doing this to show me that she thinks that she's my boss (and I
> understand that I need to teach her that bossing humans is
unacceptable
> behavior). Obviously, I want this to stop right now, before it
becomes
> a habit - if anyone could please offer any suggestions for dealing
with
> her? Thank you in advance...
Well, she needs to learn to respect your space and your wishes. When
you say jog around in a circle, she needs to do it. When you say whoa,
she needs to do it. When you say back away from me, she needs to do
it. When you say turn and face me, she needs to do it. You need to
correct any of the tiny tiny minor behaviors that mean "I'm thinking
about trying to be your boss" - the behaviors that happen WAY before
you actually get kicked. If you don't know how to teach them to do
this, you might want to post your location so we can see if anybody
knows any instructors in your area.
good luck,
cindi
http://www.allisonacres.org
Brian Whatcott
> You should also react when she kicks at you by showing
>her you are the boss. You do this by assertively taking her space and
>causing her to yield to you, making her move her feet.
//
>cindi
Hmmm....a kicking donk:
Cindi takes her space, but Tom kicks her promptly in the belly.
Hmmm... I wonder which way works better?
Neither even mentioned whispering in a critter's ear!
Brian Whatcott Altus, OK
J. Z. M.
> Cindi takes her space, but Tom kicks her promptly in the belly.
>
> Hmmm... I wonder which way works better?
Both work IMHO.
I've kicked them, and I've given them space, or taken my space; it all comes
down to one thing. *I'll kill you if you do it again*. They all seem to get
the picture. LOL A kicking donkey? Sounds normal, the little scamp.
Jody
John Hasler
> I've kicked them, and I've given them space, or taken my space; it all
> comes down to one thing. *I'll kill you if you do it again*.
It has nothing to do with killing, real, threatened, or imagined.
--
John Hasler Boarding, Lessons, Training
jo...@dhh.gt.org Hay, Jumps, Cavallox
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA
J. Z. M.
> It has nothing to do with killing, real, threatened, or imagined.
Oh, so serious...... It's a joke. I need to add the smile and the big shit
eating grin for you slow types. Though dominance has an air of truth there
in some small measure. Killing is the ultimate dominate action.
So there, grump-grump. Going to bed now, must get a life someday, yep, ought
to put that on my "to do" list tomorrow.
Nighty-night. Little donkey just don't know no better than to mess with a
cruel hearted woman. Poor, little thing........now you want me talking like
that?????
Jody
CM 2
I'll put my money on Sir Stovall.
"Neither even mentioned whispering in a critter's ear!"
<snark> waste of time, eh?
Candy
JC Dill
>The breeder told me that I should be "firm" and
>tell her "No."
You should be very firm and make it very clear that kicking you is not
allowed, *if* she manages to kick you. But before that, you should be
heading off the kick before it happens. Pay close attention to the
signs that she might be thinking of kicking and before she CAN kick,
make her do something else that is not compatible with kicking at the
same time. In the natural horsemanship system, you make her yield her
hind quarters away from you, stepping under her belly with the hind
leg near you as she crosses her hind legs and steps away. Do this as
needed to make her keep her space from you and not crowd when you are
handling or leading her. When your objective is for her to stand
still (such as standing for grooming), you use this as "work" when
she's misbehaving - only when she yields softly will you "let" her
stand and then start grooming again. She will quickly learn that
standing still and NOT kicking is much better than being made to
"work". But for her to learn this first YOU have to learn how to
train her and how to be consistent and time your corrections properly.
It's hard to do with a trained horse (or donkey) and VERY hard to do
when the animal is untrained.
Cindi is right that it's MUCH better off to start with trained horses
(or donkeys) than to start with an untrained foal. People who don't
have a lot of equine handling experience often think that having a
horse/donkey is like having a dog and that you should get one young
and raise it, but that's really backwards. It takes a lot of skill to
raise and train one properly. Odds are that you will make a lot of
mistakes and unless you are *very* determined some of your mistakes
will persist and you will end up with a grown donkey with bad training
and bad manners that is NOT a pleasure to own or handle.
jc
Hunter
>
>"Neither even mentioned whispering in a critter's ear!"
You think you're kidding..... there's a woman on one of the donkeys
lists who is having trouble with her young donkey chasing the sheep
he's supposed to be protecting.
She keeps having long talks with him telling him that's not nice.
Hunter
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy shit...what a ride!"
cc...@quixnet.net
"Brian Whatcott" <bet...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:78qq715og5tt9gvl3...@4ax.com...
They both work fairly well, actually. I kick 'em back...seems to work
better on their kick-oriented brains (don't even always have to connect, if
your aim's bad...just the idea that you weren't scared and responded like a
dominate horse would have seems to work with a lot of them). The "taking
their space" thing works, I've just got better things to do with my time and
energy. Cindi's reported an effect (the following around "You're now my
leader." thing) that I've witnessed often, but I get it as much from one
treatment as the other.
"There are four-and-twenty ways of constructing tribal lays
And every single one of them is right."
(Kipling)
Cricket
>
> Brian Whatcott Altus, OK
Joyleen Seymour
This is exactly how we stopped our young burro from kicking. Every time
he threatened to kick, I charged and kicked him, adding growling and
yelling for emphasis. :-) He is four years old now, and no longer even
threatens to kick. He's a lot bigger now, so it's a good thing.
Brian Whatcott
>> Hmmm....a kicking donk:
>> Cindi takes her space, but Tom kicks her promptly in the belly.
>> I wonder which way works better?
///
>"There are four-and-twenty ways of constructing tribal lays
> And every single one of them is right."
>(Kipling)
[??]
>Cricket
Cricket,
I think Rudyard knew of another forty five ways more....
Brian Whatcott Altus, OK
cindi
<c...@quixnet.net> wrote:
> They both work fairly well, actually. I kick 'em back...seems to
work
> better on their kick-oriented brains (don't even always have to
connect, if
> your aim's bad...just the idea that you weren't scared and responded
like a
> dominate horse would have seems to work with a lot of them).
If, in the process of trying to take their space, they do not yield to
me properly, I will definitely be connecting some part of ME with some
part of THEM. I would imagine that in the scenario of a donkey who
just kicked me, I would have to connect with him physically in some
manner in order to drive him off - since he just kicked me, he
obviously feels he has the right to take MY space, and I can't imagine
a simple twirl of the lead rope would be enough at that point.
> The "taking
> their space" thing works, I've just got better things to do with my
time and
> energy.
The taking their space and associated training should be done by the
owner who has the time (supposedly has the time, or else should not
have the equine!) You, on the other hand, being the farrier, do not
have the time nor is it your job to train these animals. So a kick in
return is an effective response, in cases where an equine kicked you
due to feeling like he could be in charge of you.
(I have seen an occasional case of a TERRIFIED horse who was
under-prepared for farrier work, who was scared beyond his tolerance
and was not given the option of escape (snubbed up to something,
actually), who kicked a farrier. I'm not quite sure if, in that case,
a hard kick to the belly would be a fair response. On the one hand,
you're telling the horse even though you are terrified, it's NEVER OK
to kick a human, and that's a prefectly correct message. But on the
other hand, I'm not sure if that message actually gets thru in a horse
who's pushed beyond his tolerance. It might just be that he's made to
be even more afraid next time.)
cindi
Laura Friedman
groundwork. When you lead the critter, does it follow easily? Does it move
out of your way if you move into your space without you having to touch or
push it? If not, it does not see you as dominant and you should work on
simple ground exercises involving leading, stopping and yielding to help
reinforce your status and its obedience.
--
Laura Friedman
"Tom Stovall" <sto...@REMOVEwt.net> wrote in message
news:427D645D...@REMOVEwt.net...
Tom Stovall
[...]
>(I have seen an occasional case of a TERRIFIED horse who was
>under-prepared for farrier work, who was scared beyond his tolerance
>and was not given the option of escape (snubbed up to something,
>actually), who kicked a farrier. I'm not quite sure if, in that case,
>a hard kick to the belly would be a fair response...
One tires of the bullshit excuses owners come up with for ill-broke
pukes. There is no excuse for a horse's taking a cut at a human because
broke horses don't kick at humans - EVER! When an owner asks a farrier
to trim or shoe, the horse is presumed broke to having its feet handled.
If I have any doubts, I require the owner to pick up all four feet
before I'll get under the horse. A time or two in the distant past,
I've had an owner say something really stupid like, "Sweetness doesn't
like having her feet handled so I haven't been picking them up." On
those occasions, it took me a bit of extra time to load my stuff on
account of having to sit down and catch my breath: uncontrollable
laughter tends to take my breath away.
Farriers trim and shoe, owners and trainers train.
Ben Turner
>One tires of the bullshit excuses owners come up with for ill-broke
>pukes. There is no excuse for a horse's taking a cut at a human because
>broke horses don't kick at humans - EVER! When an owner asks a farrier
>to trim or shoe, the horse is presumed broke to having its feet handled.
>If I have any doubts, I require the owner to pick up all four feet
>before I'll get under the horse. A time or two in the distant past,
>I've had an owner say something really stupid like, "Sweetness doesn't
>like having her feet handled so I haven't been picking them up." On
>those occasions, it took me a bit of extra time to load my stuff on
>account of having to sit down and catch my breath: uncontrollable
>laughter tends to take my breath away.
>Farriers trim and shoe, owners and trainers train.
I've made the point with each of our farriers that, while I routinely
pick up and clean our horses' feet, my methods, stance, and duration
differ from a farrier's needs -- sometimes radically different as I
adapt to accomodate my back problems [maybe you shouldn't ask, because
some of them are certainly in the realm of "don't try this at home,
kids"]. Hence, I explain, that I would appreciate any and all feedback
regarding training deficiencies (from their viewpoint) in order to
determine how to address those deficiencies before the next visit. The
farriers' reactions to my comments suggest that this is not necessarily
a common owners' attitude in these parts.
To get back to the OP's problems, I first opted not to post a link to
the rec.equestrian classic, Sheila Green's "The Horse Who Kills You Has
Warned You First" because of the equid in question being a mini-donk.
For those that would object, just think of the title as being something
like "The mini-donk that ruins your knee for the rest of your life has
warned you first." A link to a google archive post is:
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.equestrian/msg/f469ccb3dc58e8da>
--
Best,
Ben Turner, Mare's Reach
cindi
Tom Stovall wrote:
> anonymous, posting as "cindi", wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >(I have seen an occasional case of a TERRIFIED horse who was
> >under-prepared for farrier work, who was scared beyond his tolerance
> >and was not given the option of escape (snubbed up to something,
> >actually), who kicked a farrier. I'm not quite sure if, in that
case,
> >a hard kick to the belly would be a fair response...
>
> One tires of the bullshit excuses owners come up with for ill-broke
> pukes.
Ill broke pretty much means under-prepared, as far as I can tell.
> There is no excuse for a horse's taking a cut at a human because
> broke horses don't kick at humans - EVER!
Absolutely - broke horses. What I'm talking about is a horse who is
not yet broke to having its feet handled. It is ALWAYS the human's
fault, always, that the horse is not ready, of course. And since it's
not the horse's fault, maybe the owner should get the kick to the belly
instead of the horse!
> When an owner asks a farrier
> to trim or shoe, the horse is presumed broke to having its feet
handled.
This is as it should be. It is not always the way it is. When it's
not this way, it's wrong, plain and simple, and the human's fault. My
point was that in those circumstances, kicking the horse in the belly
might not be the right thing for the horse. And not because I'm
concerned about hurting him or wounding his inner foal or anything like
that - I'm considering what is the right thing to do to advance his
training. It's the wrong thing to scare a horse so bad by forcing him
to do something he's not prepared for to the point that he feels the
need to kick at a human. But once that's already happened, I don't
know if kicking that particular horse back is the right answer.
> If I have any doubts, I require the owner to pick up all four feet
> before I'll get under the horse.
Does that always give you accurate data? We have a horse here who will
let me or my daughter do whatever we want to do to him, but he won't
let certain other people (and of course I have him in training to get
him over that.) I don't think that every time somebody sees an owner
do something to a horse, that automatically means anybody else can do
the same thing with the same result (and of course that is still the
owner's responsiblity to remedy.)
cindi
Mali More
"Hunter" <HHam...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:qp4s71l9bpraqo3g4...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 8 May 2005 00:31:44 -0400, cmsqu...@webtv.net (CM 2) wrote:
>
> >
> >"Neither even mentioned whispering in a critter's ear!"
>
> You think you're kidding..... there's a woman on one of the donkeys
> lists who is having trouble with her young donkey chasing the sheep
> he's supposed to be protecting.
>
> She keeps having long talks with him telling him that's not nice.
Oh my, my, my....is it working? Or is the donkey still chasing sheep? Do
tell!
Mali
Jim Casey
> Ill broke pretty much means under-prepared, as far as I can tell.
I take "ill-broke" to mean a horse that has been trained (inadvertently)
to get its way with humans, not just one that is unbroke.
Here are two examples: When I worked at the livery stable, a boarder
sold her mare to the stable. The puke would try to corner people in the
stall. Apparently, the former owner didn't have the gumption to break
that habit, but the mare quit doing it in short order when people walked
boldly into the stall carrying a stick and made it clear who was in charge.
A riding companion of mine was so sure that her horse would spook at
cattle that she would tense up and even shriek if a cow hove into view.
The horse quickly learned that cattle meant "giddy-up let's go!" And
he was a freaking quarter horse with "cow" written all over him.
- Jim
Mary McHugh
> A riding companion of mine was so sure that her horse would spook at
> cattle that she would tense up and even shriek if a cow hove into view.
> The horse quickly learned that cattle meant "giddy-up let's go!" And
> he was a freaking quarter horse with "cow" written all over him.
That's so funny. I once hunter paced with a woman who had a really
useful QH gelding, who was soooo honest. She, OTOH, was terrified.
Every time she saw an intimidating jump, she'd say "Oh, Champ isn't
going to jump that" and sure as shootin' he wouldn't. ;-)
You could see he would jump anything but the closer she'd get to the
fence, she'd tense up and stop him with just her tense seat and rigid hands.
For the rest of the story, eventually on him she gained a LOT of
confidence and she eventually even started showing in the Adult Amateur
jumpers. She also did a lot of fox hunting.
Unfortunately, he suffered a relatively early demise due to colic.
Mary
Jim Casey
> Every time she saw an intimidating jump, she'd say "Oh, Champ isn't
> going to jump that" and sure as shootin' he wouldn't. ;-)
Lack of rider confidence is the most contagious disease in the world. BTDT.
- Jim
CM 2
Hunter "
Aw poor little muley, he probably just has some issues he needs to
address and I'm sure he's misunderstood as well. Poor guy. heh
Candy
Hunter
wrote:
>Oh my, my, my....is it working? Or is the donkey still chasing sheep? Do
>tell!
>
>Mali
You won't believe this but it's still chasing sheep....
You try to raise 'em up right......
KONACOWBOY
Hi and ALOHA all; This thread is all too stupid. Donkeys kick. When I
shoed for other folks I always told them that if I got kicked it was
100.00 extra. If they were there and tried to help it was 100.00 extra.
If I had to catch the horse it was 100.00 extra. Needless to say I had a
very small following as most of the horses were owned by gals that just
loved little horsie. C.U.Online..bones
> Tom Stovall, CJF
> Farrier & Blacksmith
> sto...@REMOVEwt.net (remove REMOVE)
> http://www.katyforge.com
--
Come See us if you can;
Bones & Sally Inkster, Kealakekua ,Hawaii
WWW.KONACOWBOY.COM
comptonfamily
her dominance. The next time she raises her leg in a threatening
manner, immediately kick her in the belly while simultaneously
expressing your disapproval verbally. Don't hit her with your hand,
don't look around for something to swat her with, just kick her smartly
in the belly anytime she even looks like she's thinking about firing.
You won't break anything and you'll damn sure get her attention.
>I assume she's doing this to show me that she thinks that she's my boss
>(and I understand that I need to teach her that bossing humans is
>unacceptable behavior). Obviously, I want this to stop right now,
>before it becomes a habit - if anyone could please offer any suggestions
>for dealing with her? Thank you in advance...
Your assessment is correct: kicking is an unacceptable and dangerous
behavior, even from a mini. Fortunately, it's an easy habit to break if
you remember that horses are NOT made out of glass.
--
Tom Stovall, CJF
I agree with Tom just be sure you have on kicking shoes. The damn critters
bellies are hard as a wall. Don't break a toe. Wear boots of some sort.
Dana Compton