Advice for horse that keeps mouth open & runs through the bit?
Kris Carroll
> Has anyone encountered, or does anyone have advice for a horse with
> the following problems:
> 1) She keeps her mouth open when being ridden
> 2) She barrels her way through the bit (runs through it)
> 3) Pulls & lowers her head
> She is ridden huntseat equitation & hunters. I have tried different
> kinds of bits: d-ring snaffle, fat loose ring snaffle, full cheek (plain
> & slow twist); currently I ride her in a jointed Kimberwicke.
> Your advice or your own experiences would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Allison
Give her back the fat snaffle and learn to ride with your seat. Even
hunters can learn balance and to stop tripping off their forehands.
Kris C.
Chad Reznicek
Digi Lady
Cat
Chad Reznicek <r...@radiks.net> wrote in message
news:3765DDF5...@radiks.net...
Anne Irwin
Like the other person said, make sure you are using your seat, and not
concentrating your weight on her forehand. You need to ride her so that she
lightens up her front end. I wouldn't necessarily recommend giving her back
the fat snaffle, but I wouold recommend stepping down from the kimberwicke.
She's evading the bit for some reason, and that's obviously not good. I'd
try just a regular full-cheek with the flash noseband. If schooled properly,
she hopefully will improve her way of going. And yes, I am a hunter person,
and it's a much nicer picture in the ring when the horse is actually working
it's hind end, although where I am most people just let them fall on the
forehand and run around. A horse can't jump properly when on it's forehand
like that.
Good luck!
Anne
Karen R.
> Has anyone encountered, or does anyone have advice for a horse with
>the following problems:
> 1) She keeps her mouth open when being ridden
> 2) She barrels her way through the bit (runs through it)
> 3) Pulls & lowers her head
> She is ridden huntseat equitation & hunters. I have tried different
>kinds of bits: d-ring snaffle, fat loose ring snaffle, full cheek (plain
>& slow twist); currently I ride her in a jointed Kimberwicke.
> Your advice or your own experiences would be greatly appreciated.
I recently purchased a very nice horse with similar problems to the ones
you are facing. The reason my mare evades the bit is because she is still
unbalanced, and *because* she was ridden in a slow twist before I bought
her. I now ride her in a 18mm loose ring KK bit and I work lots of
transitions from leg and seat. Remember, they can only pull if you give them
something to pull against.
--
* Karen D. Rust
* kdrust at labyrinth dot net
* http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Farm/9744/
* West Virginia University School of Medicine
* Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Jennifer Ellis
Wow, as soon as i read your post, I was reminded of the horse i worked last
summer, Gwen. All three of the things you listed, she did. She was my
project for the summer. Although what I am going to tell you may seem
pretty simple, it really worked with me and Gwen.
Basically, as soon as I touched her mouth, she put it down, chin to chest,
and barreled through my hands, leaning on them quite heavily. SO, i stopped
supporting her mouth. It actually quite frustrated her. I used very little
hand contact, mainly working her off my legs and seat. From what i
interpreted from your post, that would mean buckle work. *weee* ;) I did a
lot of walk work first, until she understood clearly my seat aids. Worked
her a lot through transitions. When i wanted a downwards transition, I just
sat on her, not letting my seat flow with her movement any more, and using
little to no hand. Didnt matter how long it took, just as long as we did it
the right way.
I would suggest maybe having someone lounge you first while doing this, so
that you dont have to touch the horse's mouth at all. My mission with Gwen
was to teach her that riding doesnt have to be painfull, and she doesnt have
to run away from her rider, or avoid contact with her mouth. Your mission
should be to get the horse to trust your hands not to hurt her mouth.
Also, and i didnt have time to do this, but i would have if i could have.
:) But spending a couple of weeks just lounging, with side reins, getting
the horse to stretch "out", but in a non-evasive manner could possibly help.
Best of luck,
Jen
Chad Reznicek wrote:
> Has anyone encountered, or does anyone have advice for a horse with
> the following problems:
> 1) She keeps her mouth open when being ridden
> 2) She barrels her way through the bit (runs through it)
> 3) Pulls & lowers her head
> She is ridden huntseat equitation & hunters. I have tried different
> kinds of bits: d-ring snaffle, fat loose ring snaffle, full cheek (plain
> & slow twist); currently I ride her in a jointed Kimberwicke.
> Your advice or your own experiences would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Allison
Robert Johnson, Jr.
Second, have her teeth been floated and her mouth examined?
Third, does her saddle fit?
Fourth, do you ride with a qualified trainer?
I would seriously consider going back to the flat and forgetting fences
until you can drop her on the buckle at all three gaits and she stays
consistent and doesn't rush or run through. How green is she?
Robby
Chad Reznicek wrote in message <3765DDF5...@radiks.net>...
Kris Carroll
> After checking her teeth and back, try schooling her in a flash noseband.
> Like the other person said, make sure you are using your seat, and not
> concentrating your weight on her forehand.
Strongly disagree. That just makes the flash a quick fix that ignores the
seat of the problem. <G> No one should switch to a flash until they are
certain they have their seat straightened out. Learn to ride and you
don't need gimmicks.
Kris C.
Jorene Downs
Karen R. <kdr...@labyrinth.net> wrote
> Chad Reznicek wrote:
> > Has anyone encountered, or does anyone have advice for a horse with
> >the following problems:
> > 1) She keeps her mouth open when being ridden
> > 2) She barrels her way through the bit (runs through it)
> > 3) Pulls & lowers her head
> > She is ridden huntseat equitation & hunters. I have tried different
> >kinds of bits: d-ring snaffle, fat loose ring snaffle, full cheek (plain
> >& slow twist); currently I ride her in a jointed Kimberwicke.
> > Your advice or your own experiences would be greatly appreciated.
>
ones
> you are facing. The reason my mare evades the bit is because she is still
> unbalanced, and *because* she was ridden in a slow twist before I bought
Nope. The problem wasn't the slow twist, it was the previous rider's errors
that caused your new mare's problem ... likely riding with the hands instead
of the seat. I've seen plenty of horses go quite comfortably in a slow twist
... but the rider was staying out of that horse's mouth. I've also seen a
horse *very* uncomfortable in a smooth fat snaffle because the rider had a
death grip on the mouth ... yet that rider was convinced she had light
hands. ;-/
> Remember, they can only pull if you give them
> something to pull against.
Yep.
--
Jorene
just moseyin' down the trail on a Paint horse
from the CEOates Ranch in California ... ;)
www.CEOates.com
meet other Rec.eq'ers on the Rogue's Gallery:
www.psnw.com/~jcdowns/RecEq/RecEq.html
Suebaru2
>> something to pull against.
>
That may be the best advice of all. The previous post about doing a lot of
"buckle" work is where I would head. I've dropped horse's heads on the
ground... well.. they dont actually hit the ground, but just let go of the
reins and let her pick herself back up. Dont get conned into holding up
something that weighs more than you do.
Sue
dixiem...@hotmail.com
I'm not one of those little seat riders :-), I do western performance,
but it seems to me that a horse is still a horse... If he's running
through you, it might be that he needs a little basic work, i.e. walk,
trot, lope (canter to some of us). Back to the round pen for a half-
hour a day and re-establish the basics of your working partnership by
using a very loose rein on an O-ring snaffle. Have him go forward ten
steps at the walk, stop, back up three, until he gets the idea that
y'all work together. Then step him up to the trot, doing the same ten
forward, three back, then to the lope, the same, until you do all three
gaits in succession both ways around the pen. If you haven't got a
round pen, do it on the trail, or in your arena. It takes about three
months for this to take hold, but it'll cure what ails ya! This problem
almost sounds like somebody's trying to do too much too soon, but I
could be wrong. Come see us at www.dixiemidnight.nv.switchboard.com
In article <7k5l00$qaf$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
"Robert Johnson, Jr." <robbyj...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> First, are you pulling on her?
>
> Second, have her teeth been floated and her mouth examined?
>
> Third, does her saddle fit?
>
> Fourth, do you ride with a qualified trainer?
>
> I would seriously consider going back to the flat and forgetting
fences
> until you can drop her on the buckle at all three gaits and she stays
> consistent and doesn't rush or run through. How green is she?
>
> Robby
> Chad Reznicek wrote in message <3765DDF5...@radiks.net>...
> > Has anyone encountered, or does anyone have advice for a horse with
> >the following problems:
> > 1) She keeps her mouth open when being ridden
> > 2) She barrels her way through the bit (runs through it)
> > 3) Pulls & lowers her head
> > She is ridden huntseat equitation & hunters. I have tried
different
> >kinds of bits: d-ring snaffle, fat loose ring snaffle, full cheek
(plain
> >& slow twist); currently I ride her in a jointed Kimberwicke.
> > Your advice or your own experiences would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> >Allison
> >
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Karen R.
>
>Karen R. <kdr...@labyrinth.net> wrote
>> The reason my mare evades the bit is because she is still
>> unbalanced, and *because* she was ridden in a slow twist before I bought
>
>Nope. The problem wasn't the slow twist, it was the previous rider's errors
>that caused your new mare's problem ... likely riding with the hands
instead
>of the seat.
Of course you're right Jorene (as usual). I do think of the slow twist issue
as a symptom of the problem. The horse folk I generally chat with know the
implications of a horse having been put in a slow twist, so saying, "She was
ridden in a slow twist," kind of says it all, since we've been there done
that in terms of the whole discussion about how she was ridden. I should
have been more explicit, though in my post here. Thanks for clearing up my
mess!
Zeftingd
>the following problems:
> 1) She keeps her mouth open when being ridden
> 2) She barrels her way through the bit (runs through it)
> 3) Pulls & lowers her head
Just a thought, some horses have a rather low palate and find a single jointed
bit or fat bit uncomfortable. My horse will open her mouth when I ride her in
a snaffle. When I ride her in a french snaffle or Dr. Bristol, this behavior
stops.
As suggested in previous posts, riding "on the buckle" or at least with minimal
contact and using seat and leg and using half halts to slow down rather than
giving anything the horse can pull against may help with the rest.
Gwen
RBirgells
Kirsty
RBirgells wrote:
>
> Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
Oh sure, that'll help!! NOT !!!!!
Kirsty
--
"If, in your heart, you truly believe that any small effort - anything
that is a little better - is cause for celebration, you will ALWAYS have
a good ride."
- Jane Savoie
Alan Chapman
Ho, hum, more abusive advice from giggly-girl-gruesome.
Why mask a problem, when *correct* training of both horse and rider may cure
it?
I would initially be checking the bit - is it too fat, or hitting the
pallate? It may be a case that the horse will go better in a thinner, or
double jointed (french link), or mullen mouth snaffle.
Alan.
--
+=========================================+
| Alan Chapman, al...@welsh-cob.cix.co.uk |
| bli...@my-dejanews.com |
| r55...@email.sps.mot.com |
| URL: http://www.cix.co.uk/~welsh-cob/ |
+=========================================+
Jorene Downs
Karen R. <kdr...@labyrinth.net> wrote
> Jorene Downs wrote in message ...
> >
> >Karen R. <kdr...@labyrinth.net> wrote
> >> The reason my mare evades the bit is because she is still
> >> unbalanced, and *because* she was ridden in a slow twist before I
bought
> >
> >Nope. The problem wasn't the slow twist, it was the previous rider's
errors
> >that caused your new mare's problem ... likely riding with the hands
> instead
> >of the seat.
>
> Of course you're right Jorene (as usual).
I was making an assumption since the mare's behaviour is more commonly
rider-related than bit related. No guarantees this isn't an exception! ;)
>I do think of the slow twist issue
> as a symptom of the problem. [...]
It's easy to fall into that "just look at the bit!" abbreviation when a
horse has problems. Often, it really *is* the wrong bit being used for that
particular horse, rider, and situation. And horses are sometimes *quite*
obvious when they "dislike" a particular bit for one reason or another, but
go wonderfully in another bit ... and sometimes that dislike is based on
prior experience. (We had a mare years ago who was like a "hot horse"
wearing a plain snaffle - even with slack rein - but went nice and relaxed
in a simple curb. Could only guess what prior owners did to her with a
snaffle ... ) But far too many people *do* blame the bit when the lack of
rider skills is the real problem, so it helps to clarify. ;)
Jorene Downs
RBirgells <rbir...@aol.com> wrote ...
> Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
How does this method teach the rider to select the correct bit and ride
correctly so the horse no longer has a reason for a gaping mouth?
Georgeanne Wilcox
>
> Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
TROLL!
Georgeanne Wilcox
Oldenburg IN
Bill Kambic
> Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
That you, Madame, are a complete and total idiot and AGAIN
been demonstrated.
Bill Kambic, Bright Star Farm, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
Alan Chapman
gmwi...@seidata.com wrote:
>RBirgells wrote:
>>
>> Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
>
Unfortunately, she's not a troll...
For the full picture, look for the thread "Saddleseat Losers At Liberty"
on deja.com
Alan.
Deborah Stevenson
>Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
If you're CRAAANKing, you ain't TRAAAAAINing :-).
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Not a believer in shooting the wounded in Champaign, IL, USA
cdhoward
>
> Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
Well, how nice to see you back from summer school...pity they did'nt
give any horsetraining classes while you where there.
Tamara in TN
Mary Healey
>
> Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
Heh. Go 'way, you poster troll for abusive equine practices...
M.
Donna Pattee
At least she's consistent . .. .
(ObHorsey: never take any suggestions about horses from Rachel Birgells.)
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
>Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
Good God, the voice of ignorance speaks yet again.
Whatever you do, DON'T do this.
jrw
EqWriter
>Date: Wed, 16 June 1999 12:19 AM EDT
>Message-id: <19990616001940...@ng-fi1.aol.com>
>
>Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
>
even more and worse problems.
The horse in question is loudly telling the rider there is a problem -- it is
now up to Allison to learn what it is and how to fix it. Using gimmicks and
such practices as suggested above do nothing but mask the problem.
Rachel, I hope that one day soon you will learn from someone that the training
practices used at your stable are wrong and in some cases down right cruel.
Please listen to the advice given here so that you may learn what causes such
problems and how to properly fix them.
Think on it this way -- would you be happy finding out that you're causing your
mare pain that could easily be avoided? Read and learn -- if not for your sake,
then for the sake of your mare and those horses you ride and/or train.
Kathy and her Mustang, Jazz <><
"A horse of course that is wild and free is more than man can just let be"
<\__~
// \\
RBirgells
shut, what good are they?
Yes it's me the "giggly-girl-grusome". You'll be glad to hear my mare is still
going strong and better and sounder than ever. Plus I am also training a few
others.
Tah tah!
=) Rach
RPM1
RBirgells:
>What's abusive about having a snug caveson? If their not for keeping the
mouth
>shut, what good are they?
They are NO GOOD. End of story.
Ruth CM
When all else fails try looking at things from the horse's perspective
R Bishop
rbir...@aol.com (RBirgells) wrote:
>What's abusive about having a snug caveson? If their not for keeping the mouth
>shut, what good are they?
>
If you HAVE to use a caveson to keep their mouth shut, you have a problem.
Any horse that is gaping its mouth and running through the bit has more problems
than a caveson can cure.
>
>Yes it's me the "giggly-girl-grusome". You'll be glad to hear my mare is still
>going strong and better and sounder than ever. Plus I am also training a few
>others.
>
>Tah tah!
>
>=) Rach
Sue
Eggs should not dance with rocks....
Charlie Chan
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
>What's abusive about having a snug caveson? If their not for keeping the mouth
>shut, what good are they?
Because you're not dealing with the real problem; you're using a
gimmick instead. The cavessons we use in the Western barn have a
standard sized noseband with no adjustments (bigger noses get bigger
cavesoons) and are used primarily with snaffles so there's no chance
to run the bit through the mouth. No need to crank 'em at all.
If a horse is opening their mouth and fighting the bit, there's more
problems than can be solved with the cavesson. You're just creating
another problem.
>Yes it's me the "giggly-girl-grusome". You'll be glad to hear my mare is still
>going strong and better and sounder than ever. Plus I am also training a few
>others.
Poor horses.
jrw
Sutterkid
>>going strong and better and sounder than ever.
Isn't your horse nerved? How the hell would you know if she's sound or not?
-Sutter
EqWriter
>Date: Wed, 16 June 1999 06:34 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990616183410...@ng-ch1.aol.com>
>
>What's abusive about having a snug caveson? If their not for keeping the
>mouth
>shut, what good are they?
>
A regular caveson is not meant to keep a horse's mouth shut. It's meant to
prevent the bit from sliding through the horse's mouth. You want to be able to
slide two fingers beneath the caveson otherwise it's too tight.
>You'll be glad to hear my mare is still
>going strong and better and sounder than ever.
I'm glad to hear your mare is still sound. I just hope that you, the farrier
and vet are deluding you into believing this to be the case.
RBirgells
Yes she is.
Sometimes nerving does not work and they are still gimpy, or the nerves grow
back. Not the case with my peach of a mare! she is incredibly awesome
Laura Friedman
>
> RBirgells wrote:
>
> > Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
>
> been demonstrated.
Finally Bill, we've found something in which we are in perfect
agreement!
Laura
J.A.Zanot
>On 16 Jun 1999 04:19:40 GMT, rbir...@aol.com (RBirgells) wrote:
>
>>Get a good fitting caveson and CRAAANK that mouth shut!
>
>
>Whatever you do, DON'T do this.
>
>jrw
The first time I read the post I asked myself: surely Rachel is being
sarcastic? To the first poster, read Joyce and everyone else's retorts and
nothing Ms. Rachel adds.
For the mouth problem, we need a few more "clues". How has the horse been
ridden to access the end results here: From her original post:
> Chad Reznicek wrote:
> > Has anyone encountered, or does anyone have advice for a horse with
> >the following problems:
> > 1) She keeps her mouth open when being ridden
> > 2) She barrels her way through the bit (runs through it)
> > 3) Pulls & lowers her head
> > She is ridden huntseat equitation & hunters. I have tried different
> >kinds of bits: d-ring snaffle, fat loose ring snaffle, full cheek (plain
> >& slow twist); currently I ride her in a jointed Kimberwicke.
> > Your advice or your own experiences would be greatly appreciated.
My take is the horse still has no respect for the bit or the rider and needs
some readjusting to basic bridle wearing, and riding. She is a puller (99% of
the pullers are manmade, and it takes awhile to retrain their thinking) so back
to loose rein and slow work. She may have even had draw reins on as a training
tool at one time and learned to pull downward for support and now thinks she
needs the bit to support her head and momentum. (Bad,bad,bad....)
Her mouth is open because she had no respect for the bit.
I would lunge her on a big fat snaffle, fatter the better with maybe KK or
Kangaroo as the manufacturer. I would try half halts at the walk, loosey
goosey walking forward with no hand contact other than the weight of the rein
and some encouragement for stretching lightly to the weight of the rein.
After this work I would proceed to the trot, when she understands I ain't taken
no hold of her mouth till she respects the weight of the rein. If she abuses my
contact she gets a tiny, quick, minute upward vibration on ONE rein indicating
my dislike for her indication that she would "like" me to hold her head up for
her. Firmer vibrations of a static very quick action for disobedience. My hands
are silk with her easing into a light contact.
When and if this all goes well, the horse will keep their mouth shut and begin
foaming and asking for me to hold the weight of the rein. (Good, good, good...)
Proceed from there.
Regards to Chad for some retraining rules and the slow process to a better
horse.
~Jaz. J.A. Zanot
,;;;,
,;( )_, )~\|
;; / | |\
' ; \; \
ฐคบฐบค.,ธ ธ,.คบฐบคฐคบฐบค.,ธ ธ,.คบ
(remove: zzz, to reply)
Sutterkid
You didn't answer the question. How do you know for certian that your horse is
sound? A nerved horse does not react to painful stimuli in areas of the leg,
thereby indicating unsoundness. If your horse has a problem that causes her to
limp, that you covered by having her nerved, I have news for you: she is not
sound and never will be.
-Sutter
Madeline Rockwell
EqWriter <eqwr...@aol.comgetlost> wrote in message
news:19990616181315...@ng-bz1.aol.com...
> >From: rbir...@aol.com (RBirgells)
> >
cause
> even more and worse problems.
.......> Rachel, I hope that one day soon you will learn from someone that
the training
> practices used at your stable are wrong and in some cases down right
cruel.
> Please listen to the advice given here so that you may learn what causes
such
> problems and how to properly fix them.
Now there's the statement of an optimist. Remember, Rach is the one who had
both her mare's front feet nerved so that she could keep on showing, because
"the mare loves showing." And you expect her to understand that cranking a
horse's mouth shut is wrong?
madeline
>
> Think on it this way -- would you be happy finding out that you're causing
your
> mare pain that could easily be avoided? Read and learn -- if not for your
sake,
> then for the sake of your mare and those horses you ride and/or train.
>
>
Alan Chapman
Because it *causes* the horse unnecessary *discomfort*.
>If their not for keeping the mouth
>shut, what good are they?
They give a finished look to the face, especialy important, when the horse
has a long face, or a lot of white.
>Yes it's me the "giggly-girl-grusome". You'll be glad to hear my mare is still
>going strong and better and sounder than ever.
You mean *less* sound, she just can't feel the pain you are subjecting her to.
>Plus I am also training a few
>others.
Oh dear, I pity those poor horses, more so in the light of your present
ignorant comments.
Alan.
--
Mary Healey
> What's abusive about having a snug caveson?
Why should I explain it to you?
> If their
"THEY'RE", sweetums.
> not for keeping the mouth shut, what good are they?
Exactly.
>...my mare is still going strong and better and sounder than ever.
How would you know?
> Plus I am also training a few others.
So many fools, so little time ...
M.
EqWriter
>the training
>> practices used at your stable are wrong and in some cases down right
>cruel.
>> Please listen to the advice given here so that you may learn what causes
>such
>> problems and how to properly fix them.
Madeline responded with:>Now there's the statement of an optimist. Remember,
Rach is the one who had
>both her mare's front feet nerved so that she could keep on showing, because
>"the mare loves showing." And you expect her to understand that cranking a
>horse's mouth shut is wrong?
>
Yes, I remember she's the one who had her mare's front hooves nerved. I also
know she's barely 17 and dearly loves her mare and horses. IMO, her trainer,
farrier, vet and other respected equestrians have strongly mislead her in
certain areas -- e.g. the nerving, cranking a horse's mouth shut, etc.
And because she knows them and respects them she refuses to listen to a
differing view. However, where this is life there is hope. I know people who
grew up using draw reins, stud chains, harsh bits and then as older adults
changed their training methods because they were exposed to and profoundly
effected by a different, kinder, way of dealing with horses.
I'm 28 -- at 17 there were certain things that I strongly believed and nobody
could change my mind on. As I grew into adulthood and experience different
views, I changed my way of thinking and going.
WB Dare Me
>>I'm 28 -- at 17 there were certain things that I strongly believed and nobody
could change my mind on. As I grew into adulthood and experience different
views, I changed my way of thinking and going. <<
I have to agree with you there, Kathy. But I know I was exercising some
independent thought at 17, not just spouting the party line.
Hoping there's hope.
Monika
Monika Delle, Seattle, WA, USA
**** Step Up To A Saddlebred! ****
Dare - W.B. Dare Me, western wonderhorse
Julie - Doubletree's Juliana, natural saddle seat-no long toes or gimmicks
& Kitties: Bean, Dora, Frango, Posie, Taz and Tickle
Chris Henderson
> <air...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > After checking her teeth and back, try schooling her in a flash noseband.
> > Like the other person said, make sure you are using your seat, and not
> > concentrating your weight on her forehand.
>
> Strongly disagree. That just makes the flash a quick fix that ignores the
> seat of the problem. <G> No one should switch to a flash until they are
> certain they have their seat straightened out. Learn to ride and you
> don't need gimmicks.
>
> Kris C.
Gotta agree with Kris here. Some of you may remember my story
about my horse Leo who I was schooling in a flash noseband. He
was doing the same things the original poster complained about
with his/her horse. He now goes in a French Link bit and has
stopped pulling, leaning (on the bit) and opening his mouth. In
other words, he is a much happier horse.
It took me awhile to understand that adding stronger hardware will
never solve any problems, in fact, it often makes things worse.
Christine Henderson
(and Leo)
Kris Carroll
> know she's barely 17 and dearly loves her mare and horses.
Not even close. This is either Ms. Hinds (defender of abusive kids)
playing games or one nasty little psychopath who is smart enough to get
ya'll dancing. The SS/Walker/Morgan kids in JRJ are have compassionate
side to them I do not see here.
Speaking of which, Jr Riders Journal mail list could currently use the
help of an experienced adult mentor familiar with enlightened practices,
and patience for those who come from these riding disciplines. Email me
for more info.
Kris Carroll
Horse Country http://www.horse-country.com
Home of Jr Riders Journal, Young Riders, PenPals,
and Gymkhana Quizzes. 1999 is our 5th year online
TLind18128
ruffle my feathers, but, just because someone rides saddleseat does not mean
they have far less knowledge than anyone else. Just because a horse is trained
to saddleseat does not mean it is a hollow-backed, cranked cavesoned,
tongue-tied, heavily-shod cranky bastard which is rewared in the show ring with
the pretty little ribbons. And what is this crap that a horse can't possibly
like to show? Oh, please, spare me.
I'm not saying poor saddleseat training isn't out there (good grief, look at
this thread - it makes me want to puke), but I think some of you are basing
your opinions on the minority and less talented.
I could say, for example - dressage/dressage riders are abusive because all I
ever see them do is these stupid little circles - endless circles. Don't you
know what continous circles will do to a horses legs? I could also say that
dressage riders must not be able to ride very well because they have to toss
their irons over the saddle to sit trot. And what is this - everyone must have
bridle trouble, they're all using dropped nosebands. And OH MY GOD - are the
eventers out of their effing minds - they've gone and laid porcupine quills
over the rails!
Based on what I see every day at the barn I board my horses at, I could
*assume* that these disciplines are cruel and the riders have little if any
knowledge of horses and horsemanship. However, I let logic prevail. I refuse to
judge the many by the few.
Tara - who rides saddleseat, western, hunt, does a little jumping and has been
spotted doing a dressage test or two.
Laura Friedman
>
> eqwr...@aol.comgetlost (EqWriter) wrote:
> > know she's barely 17 and dearly loves her mare and horses.
>
> Not even close. This is either Ms. Hinds (defender of abusive kids)
> playing games or one nasty little psychopath who is smart enough to get
> ya'll dancing. The SS/Walker/Morgan kids in JRJ are have compassionate
> side to them I do not see here.
>
Laura
Kris Carroll
> Wasn't there a rec.equer who knew Rachael personally?
No, someone claimed to know her barn and offered to stop by to talk. The
kid backed off about meeting a stranger in person, even though the offer
was for broad daylight with her parents along. That's sensible,
considering all internet people are child murderers in real life. Execpt
the few people and families I've met seemed normal....
Kris C.
Donna Pattee
TLind18128 <tlind...@aol.com> wrote:
>I must be in a foul mood today because I usually don't let off-handed remarks
>ruffle my feathers, but, just because someone rides saddleseat does not mean
>they have far less knowledge than anyone else. Just because a horse is trained
>to saddleseat does not mean it is a hollow-backed, cranked cavesoned,
>tongue-tied, heavily-shod cranky bastard which is rewared in the show ring with
>the pretty little ribbons. And what is this crap that a horse can't possibly
>like to show? Oh, please, spare me.
Since you obviously have no clue about this horse, this kid, the history of
this horse and this kid, or the things this kid has posted, I suggest you
trot off to DejaNews and do your homework.
Rachel rides saddleseat on a horse that has both front feet nerved. She
ties her horse's tongue down with a shoestring. She shows in weighted
shoes. She cranks her horse's cavesson down tight enough to keep the horse
from being able to open her mouth. I've forgotten all the other lovely
things she has done to her mare. I'm sure the mare loves the show ring . . .
>
>I'm not saying poor saddleseat training isn't out there (good grief, look at
>this thread - it makes me want to puke), but I think some of you are basing
>your opinions on the minority and less talented.
Much of the reaction is due to what Rachel herself has posted her. Much of
it is due to what people have seen at shows and show barns. Some is due to
lack of knowledge - but not much.
>
>I could say, for example - dressage/dressage riders are abusive because all I
>ever see them do is these stupid little circles - endless circles. Don't you
>know what continous circles will do to a horses legs? I could also say that
>dressage riders must not be able to ride very well because they have to toss
>their irons over the saddle to sit trot. And what is this - everyone must have
>bridle trouble, they're all using dropped nosebands. And OH MY GOD - are the
>eventers out of their effing minds - they've gone and laid porcupine quills
>over the rails!
Rather, complain about something more concrete - like the number of upper
level dressage horses that have no hair left on their sides from over-use
of spurs. Or the number of dressage horses that perform while wringing
their tails constantly. You'll get farther with your complaints . . .
Muleskinner
>... Remember, Rach is the one who had
>both her mare's front feet nerved so that she could keep on showing, because
>"the mare loves showing."
Remember how Sylvana Smith 'defended' that
by trying to call it 'treatment'?
"Serene" *Sheila Green* "Sagacity" [aka Word Warrior green*@tristate.pgh.net]
"Eat me, and use your head for better than the absorption of monitor radiation."
http://minyos.its.rmit.edu.au/~s8904850/wisdom.html
http://www.olympus.net/personal/pvd/LamIntro.html#Interdigitate
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.htm
Muleskinner
[attributions corrected]
>[Sutterkid wrote:]
>>Isn't your horse nerved? How the hell would you know if she's sound or not?
>Yes she is.
Then you know the horse is not sound, and will
never be sound in fact, or at least you should.
Would you try to sell such a horse as 'sound'?
Would you defraud and deceive for your greed,
as well as abuse helpless trusting animals?
There is no excuse for showing unsound horses,
though you and the likes of Sylvana may believe
that sporting would mean denerving a sound leg
to force an unsound horse to be overfaced just
for your frivolous airheaded jollies.
legs
and/or safe without feeling in the leg? I think I would be too worried
about riding a with a nerved leg.
cara
Muleskinner <lo...@the.sig.for.author.id> wrote in article
<v6ua3.582$6V3.1...@news.sgi.net>...
Muleskinner
>Isn't nerving a horse numbing the leg?
Exactly right.
> How can a horse possibly be sound
>and/or safe without feeling in the leg?
It can't.
> I think I would be too worried
>about riding a with a nerved leg.
Then you'll never force a horse to
suffer damage thereby. Good.
No doubt you'll have plenty of horses
to ride who aren't unsound that way.
Muleskinner
>rbir...@aol.com (RBirgells) wrote:
>>You'll be glad to hear my mare is still
>>going strong and better and sounder than ever.
>I'm glad to hear your mare is still sound ...
The mare is not sound, she's been denerved
in both fronts. She never will be sound.
Terry von Gease
>Isn't nerving a horse numbing the leg? How can a horse possibly be sound
>and/or safe without feeling in the leg? I think I would be too worried
>about riding a with a nerved leg.
Foot, doofus, foot. And then usually only a part of the foot. The only
thing that it has to do with a leg is that's where you sometimes find a foot.
Roseanne Roseannadana lives.
--
Terry
Time is nature's way of keeping everything
from happening at once.
EqWriter
kcar...@horse-country.com (Kris Carroll) writes:
>eqwr...@aol.comgetlost (EqWriter) wrote:
>> know she's barely 17 and dearly loves her mare and horses.
>
>Not even close. This is either Ms. Hinds (defender of abusive kids)
>playing games or one nasty little psychopath who is smart enough to get
>ya'll dancing. The SS/Walker/Morgan kids in JRJ are have compassionate
>side to them I do not see here.
Nope, she's a real person. I and some of my other internet buds have had a
differencing of opinions with her in the past. Also, I *know* another young
lady who has met Rachel in person.
EqWriter
kcar...@horse-country.com (Kris Carroll) writes:
>That's sensible,
>considering all internet people are child murderers in real life. Execpt
>the few people and families I've met seemed normal....
>
Actually I thought all us internet folk were axe murderers? Laurie, help me out
here <VEG>. I've met several of my internet buds in real life -- they too
seemed perfectly normal. Wait a sec, maybe that's 'cause like them I'm a child
or axe murderer? <VEG>
RBirgells
>ties her horse's tongue down with a shoestring.
Well actually no I do not do this to my particular horse. We tried once and she
freaked, so therefore we have not done it again.
>She cranks her horse's cavesson down tight enough to keep the horse
>from being able to open her mouth.
Actually.... even though I advocate this I do not do it with my particular
horse because she does not have a problem.
Bill Kambic
> In article <kcarroll-180...@blv-pm407-ip72.nwnexus.net>,
> kcar...@horse-country.com (Kris Carroll) writes:
>
> >That's sensible,
> >considering all internet people are child murderers in real life. Execpt
> >the few people and families I've met seemed normal....
> >
>
> Actually I thought all us internet folk were axe murderers? Laurie, help me out
> here <VEG>. I've met several of my internet buds in real life -- they too
> seemed perfectly normal. Wait a sec, maybe that's 'cause like them I'm a child
> or axe murderer? <VEG>
Of course, as so well put by Wednesday Addams, "Homicidal maniacs look just like
everyone else."
Bill Kambic, Bright Star Farm, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
K.Z.
rbir...@aol.com says...
> >She
> >ties her horse's tongue down with a shoestring.
>
> Well actually no I do not do this to my particular horse. We tried once and she
> freaked, so therefore we have not done it again.
So let's see. Something your trainer and/or colleagues had you
do caused your horse to "freak" to the point that you never tried
it again. And you don't see something wrong with their training
techniques? Pay attention to your horse, she tried to tell you
something and you didn't get the message.
> >She cranks her horse's cavesson down tight enough to keep the horse
> >from being able to open her mouth.
>
> Actually.... even though I advocate this I do not do it with my particular
> horse because she does not have a problem.
Mmmmm. Doesn't she?
I suspect that everything people are saying is going in one ear
and out the other. One last try on my part. Rach, I understand
how it can be when you only experience one kind of riding... one
personal universe of a specific barn. Story time.
My first barn was a large facility whose care for their horses
was disgusting, the training was less than inadequate, and the
list went on... they spent most of their time and energy slamming
other barns in the area. This was, at the time, the ONLY
experience I had with horses and riding. I had nothing to
compare to, and literally didn't know right from wrong...
everything seemed OK to me. Well, as I aged I got a little
suspicious about certain issues, but I never tried to leave. Why
should I have? I had literally hundreds of peers at that barn
that used the same methods I did, and swore by them 100%. I had
no intention of even looking at other facilities in the area... I
didn't want to go to the barns that I'd heard so many bad things
about! Sometimes people lie to themselves and others without
realizing what they do, Rachel.
When I finally left that barn to go to college (as an equestrian
major), it became apparent the first week that my years of blood,
sweat, tears (and money) had been for worse than nothing. I
became aware of the extent of the lies and deception. It was
like a kick in the gut. I went to my horse and cried, and tried
to apologize for the abuse I had never intended. It still hurts
to remember some of the "techniques" I was encouraged to use. To
this day, it makes me feel 3" tall.
I've had several trainers since then, and I can't describe the
changes I've made with myself and my horse (the same horse).
Actual riding knowledge aside, I now have limitless patience and
above all else I listen to my horse... when he tries to talk to
me, I do something about what he says. I loved my horse very
much from the beginning, but what does that matter? Now he gets
turned out regularly with his horse friends, he has tack that
fits, an instructor that understands him and teaches me to do the
same, food and everything he needs to keep him healthy. *This*
means everything to a horse. Words and good intentions mean
nothing.
Rachel, I feel as sorry for you as I do for all of my old friends
that are still at that first barn I knew. They just don't
understand. They don't want to hear what I tell them, they feel
secure in that universe that is all they have ever known. I
can't blame them. I tried to enlighten them, they didn't want
to hear it. Now I just feel sorry for them. And that is nothing
compared to how sorry I feel for their horses.
Regards,
Kelly & Doc
dok...@frontiernet.net
CJ
nerve a hoof and I didn't realize that the cannon bone where the nerving
takes place is not part of the leg. And another thing, Roseanne Roseannadana
died many years ago.
Terry von Gease wrote in message <7kec6d$3s9$1...@ocean.cup.hp.com>...
RBirgells
>do caused your horse to "freak" to the point that you never tried
>it again. And you don't see something wrong with their training
>techniques?
My particular horse didn't like it, but there are other at the barn who are
perfectly fine with it and could care less.
Meghan Noecker
>>She
>>ties her horse's tongue down with a shoestring.
>
>Well actually no I do not do this to my particular horse. We tried once and she
>freaked, so therefore we have not done it again.
>
Rachel - we're really not as stupid or forgettful as you think. Here
are some posts of yours that clearly don't agree with the above
statement. Your statements are in black, and I have provided the
headers so anybody can find them on dejanews.
Subject:
Re: Saddleseat Showing Stressful (was Re:Losers At Liberty)
Date: 998/06/27
Author: RBirgells <rbir...@aol.com>
>So the horse is being caused pain, or is at least made "uncomfortable,"
>by the bridle, righ
*WAS* being caused pain. We tie her tongue and wrapped to bits to GET
RID of the pain.
>You are condoning tieing the tounge so that the horse had no choice but
>to suffer through the pain? Unbelievable. And Rach wonders why this
>horse reared. Inconceivable.
She doesn't stick her tongue in between the bits because she's in
pain. She just likes to play around with her tongue alot. She plays
around with the tongue, gets it in between the bits while doing so,
THEN she rears because she has her tongue between the bits and it
hurts. When we tie her tongue she can't get her tongue over the bit in
the first place, thus she cannot get in a position which will then
cause her pain.
Subject: Re: Q--horse gets tongue over bit
Date: 1998/11/16
Author: RBirgells <rbir...@aol.com>
Tongue ties are great!
Subject: Re: Saddleseat Showing Stressful (was Re:
Losers At Liberty)
Date:1998/06/27
Author:RBirgells <rbir...@aol.com>
>That failing, why don't you take a day or two running about
>with a rubber band on your tongue?
>
We don't do it with a rubber band. A shoe lace. And it's just during
her classes. It's a lot better than getting her tongue over the bit!
Subject: Re: Saddleseat Showing Stressful (was Re:
Losers At Liberty)
Date:1998/06/26
Author: RBirgells <rbir...@aol.com>
>And you did not ask yourself *why* this horse was acting thus? And
>stopped the cause instead of battling the symptom
Yep, she needed her bits and curb chain wrapped with latex, and her
tongue tied when she has a full bridle.
>The two main reasons why horses are not going forward (or running
>away, which is a different side to the same coin) are riders (blocking
>the horse with seat or hands) and pain.
>
>
Well an interesting thing is that she'd always rear when asked for the
left lead. Her navicular is in the left foot. So now, I'm thinking
thats why. But back then, when we had vet check and everything done,
nothing ever showed up other than a little artheritis.
>>>>>>>end quotes
Gee, rachel - seems like more than just one time, and all in reference
to that nerved mare you like to ride. You mention that you used it to
prevent her from rearing and now you say she freaked the single time
you used it. Care to pick a story and stick to it?
Meghan
Friesians in the Northwest
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com/friesian.htm
Abby Fairchild
<snip>
Nerving isnt in the cannon bone. Its in the foot.
Abby
CJ
how they can nerve the hoof. It would seem that it would have to be through
either the pastern or the cannon to get to the nerve.
Abby Fairchild wrote in message
<19990619084647...@ng-ba1.aol.com>...
RBirgells
tied. i repeat , MY HORSES TONGUE HAS BEEN TIED! But we found that she is
better WITHOUT A TONGUE TIE, so I do not tie her tongue anymore. That does not
mean I am against tongue ties. My particular horse just doesn't like them. No
more no less!
Terry von Gease
>Can you explain that to me? I have never had a horse nerved, but I don't see
>how they can nerve the hoof. It would seem that it would have to be through
>either the pastern or the cannon to get to the nerve.
Apparently you've never actually seen a hoof installed at the end of a leg
either. Hint: look from a position aft of the subject foot.
It's foot. F O O T. A hoof is just a feature of a foot. Just like your
thumbnail is a feature of your thumb.
>Abby Fairchild wrote in message
>>
>>Nerving isnt in the cannon bone. Its in the foot.
--
Meghan Noecker
I assume you are responding to my post.
And you completely missed the point.
You said in one post that while you were still for tongue ties, you
only used one ONCE on your mare. She freaked and you didn't use it
again.
Since your previous posts talk about using them on a regular basis,
and that she was happy with a tongue tie, it is obvious that your
statement was a lie. Something you do frequently.
I am glad to see that you have learned she is better without it. But
please don't lie and say you used it only once.
It's okay to admit to a bad practice and state that you no longer do
such a bad thing. Learning is a great thing for all of us. But saying
that you don't do a bad thing but still agree with doing it doesn't
make you a better person.
RBirgells
>only used one ONCE on your mare
During the time I have owned her I have only used it once. Previous to my
owning her, they had told me that they used to tie her tongue all the time.
So hun, sorry but I was not lying.
>But saying
>that you don't do a bad thing but still agree with doing it doesn't
>make you a better person.
>
>
>
That's true. But tongue tying is not a bad thing so your point is moot .
Muleskinner
>Kris Carroll writes:
>>eqwr...@aol.comgetlost (EqWriter) wrote:
>>> know she's barely 17 and dearly loves her mare and horses.
>>Not even close. This is either Ms. Hinds (defender of abusive kids)
>>playing games or one nasty little psychopath who is smart enough to get
>>ya'll dancing. The SS/Walker/Morgan kids in JRJ are have compassionate
>>side to them I do not see here.
>Nope, she's a real person. I and some of my other internet buds have had a
>differencing of opinions with her in the past. Also, I *know* another young
>lady who has met Rachel in person.
You're scaring me.
(I was hoping it =was= a troll, especially with this latest round.)
Petra Ruttiger
RBirgells wrote
> That's true. But tongue tying is not a bad thing so your point is moot .
This is from the half-wit who also believes that de-nerving a perfectly
healthy foot
along with the navicular foot of her poor horse just so she can continue to
show it
is "not a bad thing" ........
Petra
RBirgells
Why must you stoop so low and start calling me names. Yeeeesh!
>This is from the half-wit who also believes that de-nerving a perfectly
>healthy foot
>along with the navicular foot of her poor horse
That is how my vet does it, he nerves both. My vet is very experience , hasa
good reputatiom and is just great. What am I supposed to do, tell him how to do
his job?
CJ
question. I'll ask it again. How is nerving done? I understand its the
"foot" thats nerved, but you sure as shit don't cut open the hoof wall to
nerve a horse. If you can't answer the question, then instead of trying to
be "cleaver", let someone who knows the answer, answer it.
Cara
Terry von Gease wrote in message <7kgqli$ed4$2...@ocean.cup.hp.com>...
Petra Ruttiger
CJ <le...@qnet.com> wrote in message news:376c1...@news.qnet.com...
> You keep trying to correct me Terry, but you still have not answered my
> question. I'll ask it again. How is nerving done? I understand its the
> "foot" thats nerved, but you sure as shit don't cut open the hoof wall to
> nerve a horse. If you can't answer the question, then instead of trying to
> be "cleaver", let someone who knows the answer, answer it.
Of course you don't open the hoof.
The nerve isn't something that sits somewhere in isolation and beams info
to the brain . It's like a set of wires that take electricity from all the
different places to
to brain.
So if you cut a nerve everything beyond that point is cut off from the
"network" and therefor
unable to "feel".
So to render a certain point insensitive to feeling you need to disable the
nerve at a point "above"
the area you want to numb. In the case of diagnostic nerve-blocking (if
you'd like to figure out just where a pain is ) or denerving (permanently
cuting off feeling to a part of the foot) your vet finds the nerves which
run from the area in question and cuts them.
So - in the case of a de-nerving for Navicular for example the back third to
half of the hoof is
meant to be rendered insensitive - so those nerves are cut via small
incisions above theback of the hoof.
Petra
GoForWnd
>good reputatiom and is just great. What am I supposed to do, tell him how to
>do
>his job?
Well, yes. It's your horse. I used a vet once that jumped to conclusions
about the illness my horse had at the time and wanted to do a tracheotemy right
there in the barn-- I said forget it, either take him to the clinic to do it or
don't do it at all. Turns out it was completely unneccessary anyway. Vets are
not 100% infallible, they're still people.
Did you get a second, or even third opinion about your horse before you let
this vet do this to her? Did you do any research on her condition on your own?
At some point, if you're going to own horses, you have to learn that you DO
have a say in what goes on with them, regardless of what any trainer, farrier,
vet, etc tells you. Sometimes what other "professional" people recommend is
not always in the best interests of the horse.
Emily
K.Z.
gofo...@aol.comllllllll says...
<snip>
> At some point, if you're going to own horses, you have to learn that you DO
> have a say in what goes on with them, regardless of what any trainer, farrier,
> vet, etc tells you. Sometimes what other "professional" people recommend is
> not always in the best interests of the horse.
Absolutely. When I was riding my horse at college during my
stint as an equine major, he started having some strange physical
problems. The "well respected" university vet took a
look and recommended hock injections, and said there were no
tests to run to see if it was anything else. I am EXTREMELY glad
I didn't let him near my horse for hock injections, it just
didn't seem right to me. We later found out (through the advice
of a completely seperate trainer elsewhere) that his problem was
a raging Selenium deficiency. Hock injections. <snort>
Kelly & Doc (whose hocks are just fine, thankyouverymuch)
dok...@frontiernet.net
C.M.Newell
>You keep trying to correct me Terry, but you still have not answered my
>question. I'll ask it again. How is nerving done? I understand its the
>"foot" thats nerved, but you sure as shit don't cut open the hoof wall to
>nerve a horse.
You sever the posterior digital nerve as it courses over the proximal
phalanx. It is superficial at that point, and a simple skin incision
will expose it.
Terry von Gease
>>This is from the half-wit
>Why must you stoop so low and start calling me names. Yeeeesh!
>>This is from the half-wit who also believes that de-nerving a perfectly
>>healthy foot
>>along with the navicular foot of her poor horse
>That is how my vet does it, he nerves both. My vet is very experience , hasa
>good reputatiom and is just great. What am I supposed to do, tell him how to do
>his job?
I assume that you're paying for this service, and that being the case
the usual arrangement is that you get to tell him what you want done, he
gets to execute that in his own fashion. You get veto power over his
actions.
Kid, when, and if you ever, grow up a couple of things will transform
you. First off you'll cease the monumental rationalizations for your
own actions, and second, you'll realize that when you pay the money, you
get to make the rules.
EqWriter
>>healthy foot
>>along with the navicular foot of her poor horse
>
>That is how my vet does it, he nerves both. My vet is very experience , hasa
>good reputatiom and is just great. What am I supposed to do, tell him how to
>do
>his job?
>
any doubt in your mind, seek a second and even third opinion.
Did you read up on Navicular? Did you ask if there were alternatives to
denerving? Did you ask why he felt the need to nerve a perfectly sound hoof?
Did you ask why he felt she needed both hooved nerved? Did you ask him what all
it meant for you and Jazz if the procedure were done? Did you ask what would
happen if you continued showing her with overlong hooves and weighted shoes?
Did you consult with your farrier on what all could be done at his end? Did you
have your vet talk to your farrier. Did you ask your farrier what the
ramifications were for nerving both front hooves?
Or did you blindly follow the advice of your trainers, vet and farrier?
>>This is from the half-wit
>
>Why must you stoop so low and start calling me names. Yeeeesh!
>
I agree that name calling is not needed here. All it does is insult and put one
on the defensive. If you wish to help someone learn, name calling should never
be used.
Rachel, I nor I doubt anyone else is questioning and attacking the training
methods you tout because we dislike you or get our jollies from it. I know I am
doing it because I love horses and also want to help you become a better
horseman.
I am still the same person you "met" 2+ years ago on the BAR board. I am still
the same person who came to your defense when things got too out of hand. I
care no less about you or your mare than I did then.
My goal was not and is not to alienate you. It is to get you thinking about
what you're doing and to help to show you a better way of working with horses.
Just because your barn and other barns advocate the training practices you've
been taught, doesn't make it right. Don't you find it strange that so many
people are shocked and horrified by the stuff you've been taught and do? As has
already been pointed out, not everyone is into the NH training methods. But,
most of us are into listening to the horse, not blaming the horse for our
mistakes, for changing our training methods and ways of thinking to better help
the horse.
RBirgells
>is
>any doubt in your mind, seek a second and even third opinion.
I did research and ask many people about it.
>Did you read up on Navicular?
YES
>Did you ask if there were alternatives to
>denerving?
Yes, I even tried a few of the alternatives.
>Did you ask why he felt the need to nerve a perfectly sound hoof?
Yes. and I know the reason why. Because with the effect foot nerved that one
would be so "sound" that the normal one would seem lame. Plus he toldthat when
one foot has navicular the other foot will probably end up having it as well.
>Did you ask him what all
>it meant for you and Jazz if the procedure were done?
Yes, and besides I knew what it would mean.
> Did you ask what would
>happen if you continued showing her with overlong hooves and weighted shoes?
She does not have "overlong hooves" they are a normal length just with
weighted shoes and pads.
>Did you consult with your farrier on what all could be done at his end?
YES
>Or did you blindly follow the advice of your trainers, vet and farrier?
>
>
I don't get your point? first you ask me if I asked all these things of my vet
and farrier, than you make it sound bad that I actually followed their advice.
Yes I did follow their advice. They are the professionals, they now more about
it than me, I'm paying them for their advice and services.
>Don't you find it strange that so many
>people are shocked and horrified by the stuff you've been taught and do?
No, not at all. No offense but the people on the internet are a very small
contingent of the actual amount of horse people there are out there. You guys
are just a small group, for all of you there are just as many people who are
NOT shocked and horrified.
EqWriter
>>
>>
>
>I don't get your point? first you ask me if I asked all these things of my
>vet
>and farrier, than you make it sound bad that I actually followed their
>advice.
>Yes I did follow their advice. They are the professionals, they now more
>about
>it than me, I'm paying them for their advice and services.
>
What I meant by blindly following their advice was by not asking questions,
doing research, asking other people's opinions on the matter.
>>Don't you find it strange that so many
>>people are shocked and horrified by the stuff you've been taught and do?
>
>No, not at all. No offense but the people on the internet are a very small
>contingent of the actual amount of horse people there are out there. You guys
>are just a small group, for all of you there are just as many people who are
>NOT shocked and horrified.
>
:::shaking head::: Every last horse person I know I asked about the nerving
procedure done on your mare because I was curios and wanted to learn more about
it. Every last one of them were shocked and horrified at what was done. Both of
my mare's vets and farrier were disgusted that any vet or farrier would tell
you what yours did. Even your fellow SS riders on here were against what was
done to your mare and are against the training practices you've stated on here.
I don't know -- if it were me, I'd be taking a good hard look at what is going
on. Here's a thought, there are several SS and ASB email groups out there as
well as at least one BB and at leats four boards on AOL -- did you ask them
about this stuff? And if not, why not give it a try?
RBirgells
>well as at least one BB and at leats four boards on AOL -- did you ask them
>about this stuff? And if not, why not give it a try?
I did ask, as well as I asked on the vet boards
Joel B Levin
rbir...@aol.com (RBirgells) wrote:
:I did ask, as well as I asked on the vet boards
Well, and what did they actually say?
Madeline Rockwell
RBirgells <rbir...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990620131707...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
> >Don't you find it strange that so many
> >people are shocked and horrified by the stuff you've been taught and do?
>
> No, not at all. No offense but the people on the internet are a very small
> contingent of the actual amount of horse people there are out there. You
guys
> are just a small group, for all of you there are just as many people who
are
> NOT shocked and horrified.
I suspect that if you go outside the saddleseat world you would find a vast
majority of the competent vets, farriers and trainers would be shocked and
revolted by the practices of your band of "enablers." Good vets don't nerve
healthy feet. Marginally competent but morally impaired ones do.
madeline
Kris Carroll
> No, not at all. No offense but the people on the internet are a very small
> contingent of the actual amount of horse people there are out there. You guys
> are just a small group, for all of you there are just as many people who are
> NOT shocked and horrified.
More likely they're embarrassed to look you in the face and tell you the
truth. People often prefer not to get involved when confronted. And why
should they bother when the deed is already done and their advice will
fall on deaf ears.
The internet is a small sampling of the larger population - the opinion
you find here very likely accurately reflects the majority of horse
owners. Facts are facts after all.
Kris C.
Charlie
more popular ones) that Rachel has posted to on other topics. To the best of
my recollection, she has NEVER posted on this particular subject. Monika is
one of the "keepers" of that list and might be able to research it better
than my brain's remembrances. I also seem to remember that because Rachel
hasn't posted on the "de-nerving" subject that there are at least a few of
us who have chosen NOT to bring it up during other discussions she has
partaken of.
Kathie
Joel B Levin wrote in message <37724873....@news.bbn.com>...
Kris Carroll
> hasn't posted on the "de-nerving" subject that there are at least a few of
> us who have chosen NOT to bring it up during other discussions she has
> partaken of.
How polite. And time saving, since you already know how she'll respond.
Kris C.
Kris Carroll
> :How polite. And time saving, since you already know how she'll respond.
j...@levin.mv.com wrote:
> Well, she said she posted on a "vet board" about this, so I wanted to see
> what was said there. I realize I wasn't asking the most reliable reporter
> on the subject, of course.
You're better off collecting a few of her gems, posting them on a vet
board yourself. OTOH, why bother; she'll just change her story. And people
still think this kid is worth taking at face value. I don't - even if
someone knows someone who knows her. HA!
JRJ recently had a new subscriber, who arrived all friendly and full of
info. She posted her personal web url and invited one and all to visit.
Imgine my surprise when JRJ oldtimers found photos of themselves listed as
this kid and her horse. The next day all the gifs were gone. ROTFL.
Another nice existential moment brought to you via the internet. Similar
to reading some of Jackie's posts about fox hunting. Like I said, why
bother?
Kris C.
Shanna Spec
>That is how my vet does it, he nerves both. My vet is very experience ,
hasa
>good reputatiom and is just great. What am I supposed to do, tell him how
to do
>his job?
so because he's EXPENSIVE you think he's great? and he has a good rep? who
told you that? if my horse were lame and my vet told me he was going to
nerve BOTH legs, I would at LEAST get a 2nd opinion! geesh!
R Bishop
frie...@zoocrewphoto.com (Meghan Noecker) wrote:
>On 21 Jun 1999 00:37:58 GMT, rbir...@aol.com (RBirgells) wrote:
>
>>>Well, and what did they actually say?
>>
>>They just told me what nerving involves, and that there is a chance of neuromas
>>and re-growth, But one vet actually said her horse had it done when she was a
>>little girl and she continues to show it in western pleasure
>
>Have you ever watched a western pleasure class???
>
>They aren't exactly pounding around the arena. Only a grazing horse
>can walk slower.
Nah, Meghan. A grazing horse moves FASTER than that... ;-)
Heck, a three legged TURTLE moves faster than that.
>
>
>Meghan
>Friesians in the Northwest
>http://www.zoocrewphoto.com/friesian.htm
Sue
Eggs should not dance with rocks....
Charlie Chan
Joel B Levin
kcar...@horse-country.com (Kris Carroll) wrote:
:> I also seem to remember that because Rachel
:> hasn't posted on the "de-nerving" subject that there are at least a few of
:> us who have chosen NOT to bring it up during other discussions she has
:> partaken of.
:
:How polite. And time saving, since you already know how she'll respond.
Well, she said she posted on a "vet board" about this, so I wanted to see
what was said there. I realize I wasn't asking the most reliable reporter
on the subject, of course.
/J
--
Nets: levin/at/bbn.com | "There were sweetheart roses on Yancey Wilmerding's
or jbl/at/levin.mv.com| bureau that morning. Wide-eyed and distraught, she
or levinjb/at/gte.net | stood with all her faculties rooted to the floor."
ARS: KD1ON | -- S. J. Perelman
RBirgells
RBirgells
>more popular ones) that Rachel has posted to on other topics. To the best of
>my recollection, she has NEVER posted on this particular subject. Monika is
I don't think I joined the list till AFTER my mare was already nerved.
>Rachel
>hasn't posted on the "de-nerving" subject that there are at least a few of
>us who have chosen NOT to bring it up during other discussions she has
>partaken of.
>
>
That's good, because it really hasn't had anything to do with any of the
discussions I have partaken of on the list. as a matter of fact I don't know
what it has to do with subject heading either
Charlie
topic here. However, the question was had you posted to the ASB newslists
and/or vet boards. You answered "yes." I merely responded that you have
never asked the ASB mailing list about this (nor have I seen anything about
it on trot.org).
>I don't think I joined the list till AFTER my mare was already nerved.
>
>>Rachel
>>hasn't posted on the "de-nerving" subject that there are at least a few of
>>us who have chosen NOT to bring it up during other discussions she has
>>partaken of.
>>
>>
>
>That's good, because it really hasn't had anything to do with any of the
>discussions I have partaken of on the list. as a matter of fact I don't
know
>what it has to do with subject heading either
You are also correct in that the subject heading should be changed ...
however, a subject heading of "de-nerving a horse, revisited" will probably
only add more fuel to the heat you are already feeling. And, you are quite
right in the shared belief (see, we do agree on something <g>) that it is
not correct to bring up irrelevant data regarding a person's
background/belief system. We were discussing the usage of a CRAAANKED (your
emphasis) cavesson. Your advice was not well received (IMHO quite justly
so), so folks jumped on the bandwagon regarding past incidents that you
hadn't learned from (or at least admitted to learning from).
Kathie
Charlie
RBirgells wrote in message <19990620203758...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
Even though I don't personally think the horse should become any more than a
pasture ornament, Western Pleasure is a far cry from the pounding you are
asking your mare's legs to take in the saddle seat division you are in.
Kathie
Dawn Lawson
RBirgells wrote:
> That's good, because it really hasn't had anything to do with any of the
> discussions I have partaken of on the list. as a matter of fact I don't know
> what it has to do with subject heading either
well, here's a clue...it has to do with the attitude many people are perceiving
from your posts
about your sensitivity to the well being and comfort of your horse, and the
general level of knowledge you possess.
--
If your dreams don't scare you then they aren't big enough.
WB Dare Me
>>>No, not at all. No offense but the people on the internet are a very small
>contingent of the actual amount of horse people there are out there. You guys
>are just a small group, for all of you there are just as many people who are
>NOT shocked and horrified. <<
That's pretty faulty logic, Rach. I've found the 'net to be a fairly good
microcosm of the real world-some smart people, some dumb people some nice
people, some not nice people, some loonies, etc. All here have different
beliefs and different backgrounds. We have people from dressage, western,
jumpers, etc. and various different breeds are represented here. Like someone
else noted, nearly every "training" method you've brought up has been denounced
in near unanimity. Amazing for rec.eq.
What's it running now, about ten people to your one? That makes ten in 100
horse people will agree with your methods. I'm thinking that's running high,
but even so, that does not mean that "just as many people who are NOT shocked
and horrified" as you claim.
I'm not assuming that 90% of horse people are doing everything right, but most
of the people I know, when they realize that something has the potential to
hurt their horses, they'll search for kinder methods to achieve their desired
result.
Monika
Monika Delle, Seattle, WA, USA
**** Step Up To A Saddlebred! ****
Dare - W.B. Dare Me, western wonderhorse
Julie - Doubletree's Juliana, natural saddle seat-no long toes or gimmicks
& Kitties: Bean, Dora, Frango, Posie, Taz and Tickle
RBirgells
>You're better off collecting a few of her gems, posting them on a vet
>board yourself. OTOH, why bother; she'll just change her story.
Why would I change my story? You think I have been lying all this time? If I
was lying don;t you think I would make myself sound a little better in your
opinion?
Meghan Noecker
>>You said in one post that while you were still for tongue ties, you
>>only used one ONCE on your mare
>
>During the time I have owned her I have only used it once. Previous to my
>owning her, they had told me that they used to tie her tongue all the time.
>
>So hun, sorry but I was not lying.
Really?
Let's look this over.
>She doesn't stick her tongue in between the bits because she's in pain.
>She just likes to play around with her tongue alot. She plays around
>with the tongue, gets it in between the bits while doing so, THEN she
>rears because she has her tongue between the bits and it hurts.
>When we tie her tongue she can't get her tongue over the bit in the first
>place, thus she cannot get in a position which will then cause her pain.
This seems to have the present tense, plural, and we. This implies
that you were one of the people using it, over several times, and in
the present tense. Also, I remember the posts back then. It was
discussed at length that she was having some rearing problems which
YOU (not the previous owner) claimed to solve with a tongue tie.
>We don't do it with a rubber band. A shoe lace. And it's just during
>her classes. It's a lot better than getting her tongue over the bit!
Again, you are part of the we, and classes is plural. So, you did
claim to do it and many times.
Either you were lying then or you are lying now. I really don't care
which. You are a liar either way. You seem to be the only one who
doesn't see that you've been caught in yet another lie.
Meghan Noecker
>I don't get your point? first you ask me if I asked all these things of my vet
>and farrier, than you make it sound bad that I actually followed their advice.
>Yes I did follow their advice. They are the professionals, they now more about
>it than me, I'm paying them for their advice and services.
>
Get a refund. Better yet, sue them them after your mare falls with you
riding. They should pay your medical bills as well as the cost of
puuting down the mare.
>No, not at all. No offense but the people on the internet are a very small
>contingent of the actual amount of horse people there are out there. You guys
>are just a small group, for all of you there are just as many people who are
>NOT shocked and horrified.
Actually, this group is a pretty good representation of horse people.
We come from all parts of the world. We make up a broad range of ages,
from teenagers to some elderly people. I suspect most of the people
posting here are at least 40, mush more experinced than those of us
younger crowd (at that certainly includes you).
We've also got people from all different disciplines, and even those
doing saddle seat disagree with you.
What do you consider wrong with the sampling of the population?
Now, let's look at your trusted group of professionals. There are all
in the same region, same discipline, and most if not all are on your
payroll.
Looks to me like your group is not only smaller than the group on this
newsgroup, but they are much more biased and limited in diversity.
Meghan Noecker
>>Here's a thought, there are several SS and ASB email groups out there as
>>well as at least one BB and at leats four boards on AOL -- did you ask them
>>about this stuff? And if not, why not give it a try?
>
>I did ask, as well as I asked on the vet boards
What did they tell you?
I would have looked in vet books, asked in the newsgroups, did
searches on the web, and spent some time looking through the vet
journals.