Horses like women better than men
mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
Doug McKay from Minnesota, here <the crowd shudders, flame throwers ignite,
faces are fixed in stalwart determination>. Just wanted to say hi, mainly.
I'm still out of the saddle, but am determined to change that. In fact, a
few days ago I wrote out a pact with myself that includes in part a
resolution to get part-time work (or better yet full-time!) at a ranch or
stable or get my butt back in the university student seat, which I do NOT
want to do, academia claustrophobia being what it is for me. I hate my job,
need money (deep debt), and would gladly move out West where the real
Cowboys never quit.
This weekend I bought a book that looks like it'll be very good. It's
called "How to Cure Behavior Problems in Horses" by Susan McBane, published
by Wilshire Book Company in 1987. Heard of it? Read it? Skimming through it
today I came across these sentences: "For some reason many horses dislike
or are frightened of men in general. I cannot remember ever meeting up
with a horse who disliked women in the same way although, of course, any
horse can take a dislike to an individual, man or woman, who has mistreated
him." (p.224).
When I was working last fall at the stable, the women there mentioned this
too.
Any comments?
Doug McKay
In Minnesota
"I shoulda been a Cowboy."
Tivers
In my opinion, it's probably correct. But then, some horses abuse women
more than men, too. I think women represent less of a threat to horses,
probably via body language and voice, than men.
A long time ago, I remember a herd of Morgan yearlings swirling around in
a paddock, creating a huge cloud of dust, running into each other,
sometimes kicking each other--you know, the regular rough play. And in the
center of this roiling dust cloud was my 11 year old daughter with a
couple handfuls of grain. She'd wandered out there on her own. I was
alarmed at first, but, watching the situation for a while, I concluded
that they might be firing and nipping at each other, but they were no
threat to her at all. Probably because she was no threat to them.
I like women handling and schooling my racehorses because they tend not to
"manhandle" them (is that a sexist word, a reverse sexist word?). On the
other hand, there are some horses you know are going to need some applied
strength and extra discipline--and as these horses begin to get away from
the female riders, you'd better put a male up or you're in big trouble.
That is not to say that there aren't some women who can ride a
whirlwind--there are, and I've known them and they were topnotch. But, in
general, women are more "touchy feely" than men and somewhat slower to
apply necessary discipline in a timely manner. I've known some male rider
like that, too--I'm generalizing here, hoping to give an honest summary of
20 years experience without incurring the wrath of those who will see no
differences in gender no matter what the realities are.
ti
Tom Ivers
WARNING: All Email posts to this address are subject, at my discretion, to
reposting to the entire net.
Kristina L. Martel
<snip>
>
> This weekend I bought a book that looks like it'll be very good. It's
> called "How to Cure Behavior Problems in Horses" by Susan McBane, published
> by Wilshire Book Company in 1987. Heard of it? Read it? Skimming through it
> today I came across these sentences: "For some reason many horses dislike
> or are frightened of men in general. I cannot remember ever meeting up
> with a horse who disliked women in the same way although, of course, any
> horse can take a dislike to an individual, man or woman, who has mistreated
> him." (p.224).
>
> When I was working last fall at the stable, the women there mentioned this
> too.
>
> Any comments?
>
> Doug McKay
> In Minnesota
>
> "I shoulda been a Cowboy."
>
We had a little morgan mare come to us for training a number of years
back which was supposed to dislike women. The owner was a woman and
all previous owners and trainers had been women. The horse was known
to either buck violently or bolt blindly.
Interestingly, when we started working with her, we tried both male
and female riders on her. She promply threw each female rider (all
of which were very good riders). Never even hinted at trouble when
the men rode her.
Just something to think about.
-K.L. Martel-
PS. She did eventually get over her "woman problem", if that's what it was
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Kristina L. Martel Toronto, CANADA au...@freenet.toronto.on.ca
Toro's GDawn (Polish Arabian) Tonto's Cash Bar (Quarter Horse)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Charles V. Britton
: Hello everyone!
: with a horse who disliked women in the same way although, of course, any
: him." (p.224).
Doug - Welcome back. Hope you find the job you want.
And yes, my 20-year-old Thoroughbred, whom I've owned for almost 10
years, will still go to the back of his stall and hang his head in the
corner if he hears a certain male trainer who boarded him for one month
when the horse was 9. Over the years, he's gotten less distrustful of
men in general, but definitely does not like loud voices. I've been very
fortunate to have true horsemen for equine dentist and farriers these past
few years -- quiet around the horses. Male vet the first few years was
deliberately soothing.
When I bought him, any male voice was a threat, but things are better now.
Again, welcome back and good luck.
Rose
Jonathan Quick
> For some reason many horses dislike or are frightened of men in general.
I don't think this is anything instinctive or psychological in horses.
Most horses I've come across that do dislike men have come from racing
or hunting yards where they've been broken, trained hard, and ridden hard,
mainly by men.
In general (really inviting flames, this), horses kept by men are working
animals that have to perform 110% to earn their keep. Women on the other
hand have generally a more sympathetic attitude to animals and horses can
sense this. There are always exceptions, of course, one yard owner here in
Suffolk I used to do business with scares the hell out of any horse just
with her voice, and every animal in her care lives in fear of her. I'm
probably the other extreme; horses look at me and think "soft touch" :-)
On a similar tack, can anyone suggest why I don't get on with geldings,
and never have, but few problems with mares (some supposedly "unrideable")?
JJ.
<John Alber>
: "For some reason many horses dislike
> or are frightened of men in general. I cannot remember ever meeting up
> with a horse who disliked women in the same way although, of course, any
> horse can take a dislike to an individual, man or woman, who has mistreated
> him." (p.224).
>
> When I was working last fall at the stable, the women there mentioned this
> too.
Does anyone else bridle at the notion that horses "like" women better than men? As the only male in a dressage barn with 30
female riders, I might accept the notion that more women than men seem to be involved in some horse disciplines. I also accept
that there are horses who react negatively to one sex or the other (I've seen it both ways). I am very reluctant to accept the
proposition that horses as a rule react in a more positive manner to one sex or the other where all other variables (such as
experience, competence, etc. ) are equal. Is anyone else out there of similar mind?
John Alber (TB, QH, QH, TW and Spuds the pony of leisure) jal...@interserv.com
M J Tranter
>In article <76624.m...@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, <mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> writes:
>
>> For some reason many horses dislike or are frightened of men in general.
>
>I don't think this is anything instinctive or psychological in horses.
>
>Most horses I've come across that do dislike men have come from racing
>or hunting yards where they've been broken, trained hard, and ridden hard,
>mainly by men.
>
>In general (really inviting flames, this), horses kept by men are working
>animals that have to perform 110% to earn their keep. Women on the other
>hand have generally a more sympathetic attitude to animals and horses can
>sense this. There are always exceptions, of course, one yard owner here in
>Suffolk I used to do business with scares the hell out of any horse just
>with her voice, and every animal in her care lives in fear of her. I'm
>probably the other extreme; horses look at me and think "soft touch" :-)
I have a mare who is definately more agressive towards men than women,
especially when she comes into season (it is usually a pretty good rule
of thumb :). The only time she has had any dealings with men was when
she was a stroppy yearling who refused point blank to be lead. It was
pointed out to her that this behaviour was not on. It may be that she
has always retained a memory of this first disciplining (one of many!!)
and associated it with men, but I don't think so, I think that is just
her.
I think most of the men she has met have been "soft touches" and easily
bullied. She still tries it on with my partner although it is mostly
ears back stuff now :)
Mette
--
Mette Tranter
<me...@uk.ac.ed.castle> or <me...@castle.ed.ac.uk>
<m...@uk.ac.ed.geovax> or <m...@geovax.ed.ac.uk>
The creature from the black logon --<*>-- Librarians rule OOOK!
Jonathan Quick
> Does anyone else bridle at the notion that horses "like" women better than men?
One thing I *do* think, is that horses are friendlier to vegetarians
than they are to meat eaters...
JJ.
Ellen Little
One way I pay for my horsie is commissioned portraits of horses. Been into
the business since 1990 and sold about 200 commissions. If anyone would like
a portrait of their horse(s) in watercolor, pen&ink, or pencil, send me an
e-mail and I can sedn some samples. Most people buy 12x18" for $50US (I pay
shipping) or $50CN (you pay shipping). I do them from several photos to your
specifications (jumping, standing, with or without a rider, etc.)
Most portraits finished in ten days.
Thanx (and my horse thanks you too)
-ellen
address is as above
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// Ellen Little - Mississauga, Ontario, Canada //
// Eventers Do It 3 Ways For 3 Days! //
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Walt Slazyk
>This weekend I bought a book that looks like it'll be very good. It's
>called "How to Cure Behavior Problems in Horses" by Susan McBane, published
>by Wilshire Book Company in 1987. Heard of it? Read it? Skimming through it
>today I came across these sentences: "For some reason many horses dislike
>or are frightened of men in general. I cannot remember ever meeting up
>with a horse who disliked women in the same way although, of course, any
>horse can take a dislike to an individual, man or woman, who has mistreated
>him." (p.224).
>
I am posting this with only a small amount of personal experience, but
with great faith in what my wife, the horse person, tells me.
The basic difference here is between predator and prey. Horses are
prey. They are constantly on the look out for something to be afraid of.
(I've seen a team of Belgians get upset over a new snowman erected next
to the trail.)
Men, in general, are more predator like. They thrive on competition
and often turn non-competitive events into challenges. This comes
through when dealling with animals and is interpreted as threatening.
Women, in general, are more like prey. They must be on the lookout
for something or someone that is going to 'get' them. With this general
attitude, horses see women as less threatening. They are, generally,
more sympathetic.
Walt Slazyk
**********************************************************
The above opinions are my own and not those of my employer.
**********************************************************
Susan Dehut
who preferred being caught and handled by a virtual stranger female than
by a male whom she knew), but two of my own
horses seem to definitely prefer being handled by my husband or our trainer
than by me. Perhaps they don't
see my softer voice and mannerisms as authoritative. All our other horses
seem to like us equally, but seem to behave more quietly with me than
with my husband.
********************* ()_()
Susan Davis DeHut
sde...@calvin.linfield.edu
********************* ||||
Martha Sellers
>I do think horsewomen like horses better than men ,though...
Women like horses better than they like men? Or
Women like horses better then men like horses?
;-)
I like both but my husband wishes I liked windsurfing
bettter. (than what?)
It is obviously time to go home...
Martha
--
Martha Sellers
Oakland, California
m_se...@riem.com
John D'Addamio
<mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> writes:
|> Hello everyone!
|>
|>Doug McKay from Minnesota, here <the crowd shudders, flame throwers ignite,
...big snip]
|>
|>This weekend I bought a book that looks like it'll be very good. It's
|>called "How to Cure Behavior Problems in Horses" by Susan McBane, published
|>by Wilshire Book Company in 1987. Heard of it? Read it? Skimming through it
|>today I came across these sentences: "For some reason many horses dislike
|>or are frightened of men in general. I cannot remember ever meeting up
|>with a horse who disliked women in the same way although, of course, any
|>horse can take a dislike to an individual, man or woman, who has mistreated
|>him." (p.224).
|>
|>When I was working last fall at the stable, the women there mentioned this
|>too.
|>
|> Any comments?
I have a gelding that will serve as a "disproof by counter-example". He
dislikes and fears women in general. He tolerates some women and *ONCE* I've
seen him become totally infatuated with a particular woman. He nickers at
me and accepts most men without fuss. But, women? They'd better be careful
around him!
Our 2 mares don't discriminate on geneder. They like everybody.
--
John D'Addamio
Bellevue, WA, USA
j...@slugbt.zso.dec.com
Michael Lusignan
woman-hating horse either... but I've never met a man-hating horse.
I've never met a horse that hates any person due to type... just
individuals)
I just wanted to say HI DOUG... I've missed seeing your perspective here
on the net. Glad the bad experience didn't sour you... good luck in
both the horsey and academic realms.
As for me, I'm struggling to finish graduate school, but I GET TO RIDE
AGAIN!!! I've been off-horse for years, and am just starting to ride
again... I get to exercise a local woman's polo horses!!! Yay for me.
Good luck, Doug, and keep posting!
jessica in WI
jrsn...@students.wisc.edu
Tivers
>proposition that horses as a rule react in a more positive manner to one
sex or >the other where all other variables (such as
>experience, competence, etc. ) are equal. Is anyone else out there of
similar >mind?
John,
No, I think it goes farther than that, but I can't tell you why. I don't
have problems with any horses, once they get to know me. But I'm 6'2" and
represent more of an initial presence--if I dance a jig, they'll get
upset, while someone smaller can be far more energetic and cause no
excitement.
Geldings are pretty much indifferent, but mares and stallions definately
react to me differently than they do the females I worked with. Why? I
don't know. Maybe some male aggression in their past. Maybe scent. Maybe
size. Maybe voice. Maybe body language. But there's a distinct, noticeable
difference in at least initial reaction.
Tivers
>than they are to meat eaters...
Well, I can't top that one. Bud I did know a trainer once who'd eat some
of his horses' grain on occasion. One mare in the barn would slap her ears
back and try to take a chunk out of his arm.
Diane Mathews
According to Pat Parelli's approach, the more like a predator the less
likely the horse will respond well. It's a general statement, take it
as such. This, of course, includes smell - PP says (i don't know if
it is true) that you smell like what you eat.
--
Diane Mathews My opinions, and mine alone.
Alias: FSDM #0.1/2 or Comrade Snapperhead, 2nd Mate
Husker - in - Exile
Marsha Jo Hannah
This weekend I bought a book that looks like it'll be very good. It's
called "How to Cure Behavior Problems in Horses" by Susan McBane, published
by Wilshire Book Company in 1987. Heard of it? Read it? Skimming through it
today I came across these sentences: "For some reason many horses dislike
or are frightened of men in general. I cannot remember ever meeting up
with a horse who disliked women in the same way although, of course, any
horse can take a dislike to an individual, man or woman, who has mistreated
him." (p.224).
Doug McKay
This person has obviously never met my husband's Fjord. ;-) Rom was
raised (and spoiled) by a man; he didn't get much handling by women
until he was sent out to be "broken in" by two young ladies at age 3.
He then returned to his owner, who proceeded to spoil him again, until
I bought him at age 5. Rom gets along well with my husband (who also
spoils him), but has reactions ranging from mild suspicion to outright
"lemme outta here!" to me, my trainer, my first farrier, and my vet
(all women). I suspect it's because, in his (feeble) mind, it was
only the women who had such "unreasonable" expectations (that he
straighten up and behave himself), whereas his "Daddies" had let him
be himself---a brat.
Marsha Jo Hannah Murphy must have been a horseman--
La Honda, California anything that can go wrong, will!
han...@ai.sri.com
Terry von Gease
>This weekend I bought a book that looks like it'll be very good. It's
>called "How to Cure Behavior Problems in Horses" by Susan McBane, published
>by Wilshire Book Company in 1987. Heard of it? Read it? Skimming through it
>today I came across these sentences: "For some reason many horses dislike
>or are frightened of men in general. I cannot remember ever meeting up
>with a horse who disliked women in the same way although, of course, any
>horse can take a dislike to an individual, man or woman, who has mistreated
>him." (p.224).
A few years ago I was out and about shopping for some horses. I stopped
by a friend's place to look over a few likely prospects that he had for
sale. There were two mares, half sisters, one 4 and one 7 that caught
my attention. My friend is unarguably one of the premier bridle horse
trainers and reinsmen in Northern California and most any horse he has
on his place is well made and well done.
We were talking about the two mares and he remarked that I probably
wouldn't want the youger of the two because she was 'woman broke'. This
was his wife's personal horse and she had more than a little to do with
its schooling. His wife is no slouch. I wasn't too sure of what he
meant and I proceeded to ride both horses. Both mares were reasonably
talented and could do all of the quarter horse stuff, rollbacks, spins,
slides, and all that. The older mare, the one he had made, had a
certain crispness and aggressiveness. A serious no nonsense horse. The
younger horse had a bit of built in timidity and was not as crisp and
assertive. After riding both, we resumed our conversation. I remarked
on the differences that I perceived and he sort of smiled and said
"That's what I mean by woman broke." I remarked that perhaps it was
just a difference in maturity. He said not, that if the older mare had
also been 'woman broke' she'd be the same way as her younger sister.
And vice versa had he turned out the younger.
I shrugged and chalked it up to some sort of personal quirk. But over
the years his words stuck with me and I've made it a point to informally
check it out. I find that what he says is pretty much the case. Horses
trained by women are subtly different than horses trained by men. At
least they appear that way to me. They tend to be just a taste more
tentative when trained by people of the female persuasion.
I'm not sure of, nor do I particularly care, why this might be, but
it does make for some interesting conversations.
Oh yeah, I hauled one of the mares home with me. Which one? You'll
never know.
--
Terry
t...@hpwtwe0.cup.hp.com You'll get further with a smile and a gun
than just a smile.
Michael Higgins
>
> Hello everyone!
>
<<cut>>
> "For some reason many horses dislike
> or are frightened of men in general. I cannot remember ever meeting up
> with a horse who disliked women in the same way although, of course, any
> horse can take a dislike to an individual, man or woman, who has mistreated
> him." (p.224).
>
> When I was working last fall at the stable, the women there mentioned this
> too.
>
I don't recall any "general" behavior like this - but then again
i don't remember ever asking a question like that.
I have been a man all my life (grin) and have never meet a horse
that i didn't get along with nor one that ever treated me any different
than a woman. (funny what a bag of carrots will do).
Michael Higgins
mhig...@netscape.com
pgp key on all public servers
seif...@randb.pprd.abbott.com
Terry,
I would have agreed with you if I had never ridden one of Audrey Mae
Spicaks' horses. I was catch rider at her barn for a number of years
and could tell which sex owned/rode which horse without ever meeting
owner rider by how the horses went. Then came the fatefull day she
offered me one of hers to exercise....as I trotted off she called my
name, I turned my head, picked my self up out of the dirt and said "yes".
Twisty had spun 180 deg. and come to a dead stop.
When Audrey stopped laughing she said, "by the way, I train mine to be a
little crisper than most. Don't even *think* the move unless you mean it."
I learned to sit tight on her horses and after I moved, my next
trainer told me I had a tendency to ride like a man. When I asked her
what she ment, she said that I appeared to expect an immediate responce
from my horse.
Now if I could only figure out how Audrey did that!!! :)
Terese
Phetsy Calderon
t...@cup.hp.com (Terry von Gease) writes:
> We were talking about the two mares and he remarked that I probably
> wouldn't want the youger of the two because she was 'woman broke'.
Hmmm--but was she 'cowgirl broke,' Terry?
Phetsy Calderon
Phe...@eworld.com
=========================================
The fact that you're going to die one day
is a poor reason to quit living.
=========================================
john_alber
> > John Alber (TB, QH, QH, TW and Spuds the pony of leisure) jal...@interserv.com
> >
> Why should anyone bridle at this notion John? I've personally observed it
> in our barn on numerous occaisions. One mare is very leary about men,
> unless they ply her with carrots and spend hours with her. She was abused
> by a past owner, and from her reaction to men, probably by a man. We had
> another mare (Boo's mom) who disliked men strongly, especially if they
> tried to get on her back. Would unload them in record time. My old mare
> was also really keen on her displeasure when men got on her back, was
> known for taking them through trees, etc.
>
> I guess most of this stems to how they were handled in the past. A
> definate case of YMMV.
>
Jo
I was raised on a farm and taught to take a steady, quiet, no-nonsense approach to all stock, including horses. I believe that
either sex can behave in that way, and that most all stock, including horses, will respond well to it. I don't dispute the odd cases
where this mare or that stallion will perform better for men or women (I've seen it both ways, and in cattle as well as horses). I
just get crabby at generalizing from those cases to all horses. So there. <g>
John
John Alber (TB, QH, QH, TW and Spuds the pony of leisure) jal...@interserv.com7
Lucinda L. Hensley
Michael Higgins <mhig...@mcom.com> wrote:
>
>I don't recall any "general" behavior like this - but then again
>i don't remember ever asking a question like that.
>
>I have been a man all my life (grin) and have never meet a horse
>that i didn't get along with nor one that ever treated me any different
>than a woman. (funny what a bag of carrots will do).
>
I don't think your carrots would have much effect on my old QH mare.
Bucky distrusts/dislikes every male human in existence UNLESS she's
in heat in which case she's a terrible hussy. I ride her, get her shod,
give her shots when necessary, trailer her, basically do all the things
she'd prefer not to have done. My husband feeds her sometimes and *tries*
to pet her sometimes. She likes me and will rarely even take a treat from
him. I've always assumed she was abused by a man since she's also terribly
whip shy. When I had her off being bred the stallion's owner had to
have his wife bring her in from turnout. He couldn't get near her when
she was loose. My other three horses show no such preference,
and Bucky's 6 yo daughter frankly prefers men. She and Chance were both
trained by men, B.D. hasn't been ridden yet. I think it all boils down to
what the horse's past experience has been.
JMHO
Cindy Hensley
hen...@med.unc.edu
Joanne van Rens
>
> Does anyone else bridle at the notion that horses "like" women better than men? As the only male in a dressage barn with 30
> female riders, I might accept the notion that more women than men seem to be involved in some horse disciplines. I also accept
> that there are horses who react negatively to one sex or the other (I've seen it both ways). I am very reluctant to accept the
> proposition that horses as a rule react in a more positive manner to one sex or the other where all other variables (such as
> experience, competence, etc. ) are equal. Is anyone else out there of similar mind?
>
> John Alber (TB, QH, QH, TW and Spuds the pony of leisure) jal...@interserv.com
>
in our barn on numerous occaisions. One mare is very leary about men,
unless they ply her with carrots and spend hours with her. She was abused
by a past owner, and from her reaction to men, probably by a man. We had
another mare (Boo's mom) who disliked men strongly, especially if they
tried to get on her back. Would unload them in record time. My old mare
was also really keen on her displeasure when men got on her back, was
known for taking them through trees, etc.
I guess most of this stems to how they were handled in the past. A
definate case of YMMV.
Jo
--
*************************************************************************
Joanne van Rens, Russell, Ontario, CANADA au...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
Boo aka Otoes Taffy Apple AQH, CQH, Charlie Brown geriatric Shetland pony
***********************Illigitumus non carborundum***********************
Martha Sellers
> [snip]
> The basic difference here is between predator and prey.
> Horses are prey.
Oh no! the socio-biologists strike rec.eq!
Well, Doug McKay, ya started yet another one! ;-)
Stephanie Schroeder-Teeter
>
> Hello everyone!
>
> Doug McKay from Minnesota, here <the crowd shudders, flame throwers ignite,
> I'm still out of the saddle, but am determined to change that. In fact, a
> few days ago I wrote out a pact with myself that includes in part a
> resolution to get part-time work (or better yet full-time!) at a ranch or
> stable or get my butt back in the university student seat, which I do NOT
> want to do, academia claustrophobia being what it is for me. I hate my job,
> need money (deep debt), and would gladly move out West where the real
> Cowboys never quit.
>
> This weekend I bought a book that looks like it'll be very good. It's
> called "How to Cure Behavior Problems in Horses" by Susan McBane, published
> by Wilshire Book Company in 1987. Heard of it? Read it? Skimming through it
> with a horse who disliked women in the same way although, of course, any
> horse can take a dislike to an individual, man or woman, who has mistreated
> him." (p.224).
>
> When I was working last fall at the stable, the women there mentioned this
> too.
>
>
> Doug McKay
> In Minnesota
>
> "I shoulda been a Cowboy."
>
I've never had experience with horses that didn't like men per se,
but I knew a horse who flattened his ears and bared his teeth at
anyone over 5'5" - he was quite predictable and also quite
aggressive. I had been considering buying him until I realized I
would have to walk on my knees whenever I handled him (I am a 6' tall
female). The horse also had limited vision - may have been a
factor?
Steph, st...@fsr.com
Doug McKay
After asking this question about horses and their preferences, I got to
wondering...
How would a horse know it's a man or woman standing before it, or sitting
upon it? Smell? Voice? The same way we do?
Horses can presumably tell the gender of other horses, something I can't do
without looking underneath the animal, a method I doubt the horses use. But
people aren't horses, so how could they tell the gender of a human? There
isn't some sort of universal MALE scent and FEMALE scent, is there?
Just curious...
Debbie Levine
>
> I would have agreed with you if I had never ridden one of Audrey Mae
>Spicaks' horses. I was catch rider at her barn for a number of years
Let me add my $0.02. It seems this whole argument (as most gender-
generalizing arguments do) goes something like:
1) Horses trained by more agressive people develop crisper responses.
or
Horses "prefer" timid, defensive creatures
2) Men are, on average, more agressive than women. (may be true, but we
*all* know exceptions in both directions so it is very far from
universal)
3) Therefore horses trained by men are crisper.
or
Horses prefer women.
Now, let me pose the following questions: Given the significant number
of execeptions to point 2 -- Isn't virtually all of the useful content
of the whole discussion in point one???????????????
Debbie
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debbie Levine deb...@ipac.caltech.edu ! \___ _
Los Angeles, CA /__\ ) \
/ \ / \_
"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours!" R. Bach
Ellen Little
>Any comments?
Hi Doug.
I thought your subject read : "Women like horses better than men", now *that*
is saying something.
I have been in the business about 8 yrs (riding,training,selling,showing) and
I have not noticed horses automatically like women better. I can understand
the logic since (most) men are stronger and less emotional that (most)
women..not that that's not a good thing <no flames wanted>.
I do think horsewomen like horses better than men ,though...
Good luck with the stablejob (pun intended)! I LOVE working at a stable, Poop
and all.--ellen
Doug McKay>In Minnesota
> "I shoulda been a Cowboy."
Coleen Walker
Rocket, humans do not have estrus!
Coleen G. Walker-Gelatt
cgwa...@u.washington.edu
University of Washington
Seattle, Wa. 98195 USA
On 27 Jan 1995, Rocket wrote:
could responses be
> linked to the different sexual pheromones of the genders, and
> specifically, the scent of (human) females in estrus?
>
Albert J. Lumas
Coleen Walker <cgwa...@u.washington.edu> writes:
Escuse me, based on the Webster's dictionary definition of estrus,
humans do indeed. Just not as visible as it is with animals.
Note also the theories about grizzly bear attacks on women campers in
Yellowstone Park during the past few years.
C.M.Newell
>From: AJL...@ix.netcom.com (Albert J. Lumas)
>Subject: Re: Horses like women better than men
>Date: 30 Jan 1995 17:01:46 GMT
>Escuse me, based on the Webster's dictionary definition of estrus,
>humans do indeed. Just not as visible as it is with animals.
>Note also the theories about grizzly bear attacks on women campers in
>Yellowstone Park during the past few years.
Forget Webster. Try a physiology or endocrinology txt. Dorland's definition
in part reads: "phase of the sexual cycle of femal animals characterized by
willingness to permit coitus"--unless you know some strange women, sexual
receptivity is not limited to certain portions of the reproductive cycle. Ask
any woman past menopause.
And what do bears have to do with that? Note "theories"? Whose theories? Any
solid data? You're on shaky scientific ground here.
--C.M.Newell, DVM
Sue Wong
The older mare, the one he had made, had a
certain crispness and aggressiveness. A serious no nonsense horse. The
younger horse had a bit of built in timidity and was not as crisp and
assertive. After riding both, we resumed our conversation. I remarked
on the differences that I perceived and he sort of smiled and said
"That's what I mean by woman broke." I remarked that perhaps it was
just a difference in maturity. He said not, that if the older mare had
also been 'woman broke' she'd be the same way as her younger sister.
And vice versa had he turned out the younger.
This is interesting to me because of an experience I had with my very
bold and agressive mare.
She figited in the cross-ties and at the stable we boarded at at the time,
there were smooth concrete floors under the cross-ties. I was reluctant
to correct her because I was afraid she would scramble and slip, so I
would move her to some less convenient place with dirt floors so I could
correct her if I needed to and, of course, she stopped misbehaving.
One day my husband, not a horseperson, was trying to do something with
her in the concrete cross-ties and she was misbehaving. I was going
over to move her and he suddenly jumped up in the air and snap kicked
her (he is a martial artist) in the ribs. I heard the air whistle out of
her lungs and she went "UUFFFFFF". She never moved her feet at all and
she stood quietly after that. That was 6 years ago and although she still
misbehaves with me sometimes, she doesn't with him.
I do not advocate knocking the wind out of your horse as a correction and
I usually only yell at her or slap her with my hand or vary rarely with a
crop. However, with one literal swift kick, he apparently gained the
respect that I have been unable to gain...
I think women use "misdirection" alot instead of correction. If the horse
is figiting, I would move her. If she is fighting with another horse I would
move one of them. I avoid the confrontation or I avoid situations where
there might be a confrontation. I have noticed this with parents with kids.
If one activity is bothering the parents, mom will suggest another, more
acceptable activity, dad will simply make the children stop the unacceptable
activity. Maybe this is what makes a horse "woman broke"?
This is an observation from someone who doesn't have kids and I am sure
that not all women/men are like this and IMHO and YMMV and all that other
stuff.
Sue and the Buckskins
Southlake, Tx. USA
sw...@samson.hac.com
Judy Tallman
Ebnet, Horse Communicator featured in Equus, come out and "talk" to my
horse, Chip. Chip had been abused before I got him. He told Sean, "I
know now to watch people before I go up to them. Some people are good,
though - mostly girls". It was a very interesting experience and Sean
told me some things that he could not possibly have known without Chip or
Rosa telling him.
jtal...@u.washington.edu
On Mon, 23 Jan 1995 mcka...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:
> Hello everyone!
>
> Doug McKay from Minnesota, here <the crowd shudders, flame throwers ignite,
> faces are fixed in stalwart determination>. Just wanted to say hi, mainly.
> I'm still out of the saddle, but am determined to change that. In fact, a
> few days ago I wrote out a pact with myself that includes in part a
> resolution to get part-time work (or better yet full-time!) at a ranch or
> stable or get my butt back in the university student seat, which I do NOT
> want to do, academia claustrophobia being what it is for me. I hate my job,
> need money (deep debt), and would gladly move out West where the real
> Cowboys never quit.
>
> This weekend I bought a book that looks like it'll be very good. It's
> called "How to Cure Behavior Problems in Horses" by Susan McBane, published
> by Wilshire Book Company in 1987. Heard of it? Read it? Skimming through it
> today I came across these sentences: "For some reason many horses dislike
> or are frightened of men in general. I cannot remember ever meeting up
> with a horse who disliked women in the same way although, of course, any
> horse can take a dislike to an individual, man or woman, who has mistreated
> him." (p.224).
>
> When I was working last fall at the stable, the women there mentioned this
> too.
>
> Any comments?
>
Mary Songster-Alpin
>>Rocket, humans do not have estrus!
Albert J. Lumas replies:
>Escuse me, based on the Webster's dictionary definition of estrus,
>humans do indeed. Just not as visible as it is with animals.
>Note also the theories about grizzly bear attacks on women campers in
>Yellowstone Park during the past few years.
What Webster's are you looking at? Mine (Webster's II New Riverside
University Dictionary) says for "estrus", "a regularly recurrent period of
ovulation and sexual excitment in female mammals other than humans." Human
females may ovulate regularly (although not always regularly), but I don't
think sexual excitement is as predictable.
Mary S. Songster-Alpin Mary_Song...@ncsu.edu
Dept. of Micro., Path., and Parasit.
North Carolina State Universityj
College of Veterinary Medicine
4700 Hillsborough St.
Raleigh, NC 27606
I form my own opinions, not NCSU's.
Tivers
>willingness to permit coitus"--unless you know some strange women,
sexual
>receptivity is not limited to certain portions of the reproductive cycle.
Um, uh, well, I guess I won't join in this particular discussion.
Terry von Gease
>I have a reply right from the horse's mouth, as it were! I had Sean
>Ebnet, Horse Communicator featured in Equus, come out and "talk" to my
>horse, Chip. Chip had been abused before I got him. He told Sean, "I
>know now to watch people before I go up to them. Some people are good,
>though - mostly girls". It was a very interesting experience and Sean
>told me some things that he could not possibly have known without Chip or
>Rosa telling him.
If you really believe this crap you are seriously unhinged. Rosa is
some other horse I presume. So just how, assuming that Rosa is indeed a
horse, could you possible know that that the swami's blather is
something that he couldn't know unless the horse told him. What
evidence do you offer that the oracle didn't make it up on the spot.
Unless, of course, you already knew or Rosa is a person. In which case,
you yourself and/or Rosa told the mystic everything and didn't realize
that you were doing do. It's called cold reading.
Either way, you've been had. But if you really are a true believer,
I suggest that you get out of the horse business and take up with
something that won't end up doing you grevious bodily harm due to
your own foolishness and misunderstanding.
To listen to aledged psychic drivel is merely silly. To act on it
is not only idiotic, it's dangerous.
Debbie Levine
>humans do indeed. Just not as visible as it is with animals.
>Note also the theories about grizzly bear attacks on women campers in
>Yellowstone Park during the past few years.
Not according to *my* Webster's!!!!! Reread it with the following in
mind:
Estrus is *heat* not menstruation. There may be some cyclical effect on
sexual desire, but that is not the same thing as a true heat cycle.
Deb Tangen
In a previous article, deb...@nimoy.ipac.caltech.edu (Debbie Levine) says:
>>Escuse me, based on the Webster's dictionary definition of estrus,
>>humans do indeed. Just not as visible as it is with animals.
>
>Not according to *my* Webster's!!!!! Reread it with the following in
>mind:
>
>Estrus is *heat* not menstruation. There may be some cyclical effect on
>sexual desire, but that is not the same thing as a true heat cycle.
>
I was going to try to stay out of this thread but I just can't resist.
Personally, I don't think Estrus has anything do do with rather
horses like women better than men. In mammals Estrus is a male, female
connection. What if you are a woman who owns a mare or a man who
owns a stallion, then this argument makes no sense. Anyway I have
some more definitions for you from other sources. This ought to
add fuel to the fire.
The American Heritage Dictionary-Standard Edition
ESTRUS: The periodic state of sexual excitement in the female
of most mammals, excluding human beings, that immediately
precedes ovulation and during which the female is most
receptive to mating; heat.
NOUN: A regular period of sexual excitement in female mammals.
Season, heat, rut
New World Dictionary-Second College Edition
ESTRUS: 1: The periodic sexual excitement of most female
placental mammals, corresponding to rut in males; heat.
2: the period of this when the female will accept mating
with the male, charactized by changes in the sex organs
Last but not least The New Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia r.6
Sex hormones are required in all mammals to maintain sex drive and
potency. Most females can mate only during ESTRUS, or heat, at
certain times of the year, which coincides with ovulation and
thus maximizes the potential for procreation. A human female
however, can enjoy a normal sex life at any state of her cycle
as well as after removal of her ovaries or following menopause.
Unlike other mammals, ovulation in females is not marked by a
change in behavior, pheromone release, or other sign obvious
to males, so neither the woman or her partner can determine
if she is capable of conceiving on any particular day.
Now mind you I don't agree that we humans don't exhibit
a noticable change in behaviior but for the most part
these definitions all agree that Estrus in not for humans.
I'll be following along to see what other resons are given for
why horses like women better than men. I don't really agree
with that, I think it's just that on the whole you see more
women with horses than men and an assumption has been made.
--
Deb Tangen
Grand Blanc, MI USA
af...@detroit.freenet.org
Peter Van Dyke
Have you considered having the bee removed from your butt?
--
Peter Van Dyke
Performance Horseshoeing
p...@olympus.net
206-732-4663
John T. Dow
I remember reading once that the biggest diffrence between the way
men ride and the way women ride is that men are more likely to blame the
horse if something goes wrong (or if the horse is just plain mis-behaving,)
whereas women will more often assume that it was something they did...
Maybe that has something to do with it... (Horses aren't as stupid as we
like to think, ya' know. If one's been ridden by a bunch of people, it
shouldn't take him too long to figure out that for the most part women
let them get away with more. :)
-The quiet one
(A female who's never done that sort of thing herself, since she's
pretty good at picking up when a horse is being stubborn, and doesn't
have a reason for it, but who has noticed this in many of the females she's
taken lessons with...)
(Sorry about the lack of editing, btw. New account, new editor which
I haven't quite figured out yet. :)
: Michael Higgins
Adrienne Regard
> I think this observation also explains why people are convinced that
>their horse likes children and "takes care of them". Children usually
>aren't strong enough or imposing enough to provoke a horse into reacting
>the way he does with an adult.
Lendon Grey was saying at the recent Pony Club convention how she was more
willing to let the D2s and D3s (beginners) rider her Grand Prix horses,
but she hated to let the more schooled Pony Clubbers on 'em because
they were working too hard at the wrong things. (Gee, I hope I'm not
misrepresenting her here, now. She told a great collection of anecdotes,
but this is merely my interpretation, OK?) Kids usually sit there
kinda quietly and don't get in the horse's way too much. I took the
comment to be more generalized than *just* pony clubbers, myself.
She also had a couple of great e-quip remarks, but I actually wrote those
down at the time and need to go home to get the quotes correct. Another
day.
Adrienne Regard
may whitney
as can be around women but when she sees a man (except for one of the
owners at the barn at which I board) she acts, to be blunt, goofy. Not
ridiculous but there is an obvious change in mood.
Coleen Walker
Coleen G. Walker-Gelatt
cgwa...@u.washington.edu
University of Washington
Seattle, Wa. 98195 USA
wil...@mowonder.com
Bizarre. Not to be nastily blatant or anything, but around the time I
ovulate I get hornier alot more ofen :)
Sarah
wil...@mowonder.com
I just got over my belgian mare's heat, we trailered her to a new
stables in the middle of it, she would not stop trying to pee in front
of all the new geldings!
--
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Sullys Maze
p...@olympus.net (Peter Van Dyke) writes:
>In article <D39zH...@cup.hp.com>, t...@cup.hp.com (Terry von Gease) wrote:
>
>> --
>> Terry
>>
>> t...@hpwtwe0.cup.hp.com You'll get further with a smile and a gun
>> than just a smile.
>
Is anyone else getting post like this twice? I am seeing almost
every post comming back about a 1/2 week later. Anyone know what
to do about it?
Karen
Coleen Walker
seems to be random and I have attributed it to the quirks of cyberspace.
Anybody who knows different is welcome to enlighten me.
T. Phelps
>To listen to aledged psychic drivel is merely silly. To act on it
>is not only idiotic, it's dangerous.
>
that was supposed to be said by the horses was pretty silly stuff. Someone
asked, "What would my horse have to say?" Suggesting that I should pay $15
for a talk. Well that's pretty easy. It doesn't take an expert. If he had
anything to share it would be. "Do you have treats?" After treats or if
the treats weren't forthcoming it would be "Can we go now?"
Hiring psychics to talk to your horse is fine if you treat it like a party
game but to take it seriously because the psychic knew things you didn't
tell the psychic only suggests the psychic understands horses and dupes
better than you do.
Tina
***************************************************************************
phel...@gold.tc.umn.edu
Tom Phelps Tina Phelps
Systems Consultant who works for her horse, Starbuck Dust
and Bicycle Touring Enthusiast and rides bicycles with Tom
4401 Marlborough Ct. !\___
Minnetonka, MN 55345 / )\
USA (+) (+)
Michele Goudie
of abuse. It happened years and years ago, but he still feels he has a need
to defend himself when he's on the street. He's not too hot on men, bald men
in particular. Recently he took the finger off of a guy, because the guy
insisted on petting even though he was warned that Charlie bites. The man was
bald..
Charlie himself just likes women better because he knows he'll get spoiled,
babied, and worked, not hard, but worked hard enough to make him feel like he's
done a good days work. Whatta character. He's a morgan/percheron just in case
anyone was curious.
From what I've observed and heard about Charlie, it would seem that men in
large part were responsible for his rough treatment. He accepts a male driver,
and he knows his driver, even when they're driving him for the first time, and
won't bite them. But, in the end, he still prefers women.
Just my two cents worth,
Michele
--
I don't have kids....I have cats!
Margaret Schultz
> In article <reshan.14...@deyr.ultranet.com> C.M.Newell,
> res...@deyr.ultranet.com writes:
> some
> >felt that their state of mind--i.e., some who got moody or stresed out
> on a
> >cyclic basis--affected the way the horse acted.
I had a great graphic example of how this works with
a young TB I had. I'd taken him to a show,
and since he was new to showing, he tended to be on
the excitable side... ;)
I had
concentrated on staying very low-key, relaxed, no
big deal type of state of mind so he could feel the
same. it WORKED. He was calm and relaxed even in
the ring with all the other horses around.
Then, I was walking him out, waiting for our next
class, taking it easy... when I heard someone yelling
my name. I pushed him into a trot, went over to
check it out only to find out my class was in the
ring and they were holding the gate for me (eek!)
so, I freaked, I didn't have my gloves, I wasn't
*ready*!!! Guess what happened?
We went into the ring, and I couldn't get him to
*walk*. he would only jig, and was tossing his
head and would not settle down, the whole class....
ms
Denise Kim
I keep getting double posts too.Also I noticed the dates are random,
with lots of posts getting older and older.For instance the
date on this note is Feb.6,and I just got it today Feb.11.Sometimes
I get replies to threads without getting the original post
days after wards; must be all the traffic on the net these days.
Denise in MA
Debbie Levine
>...Hiring psychics to talk to your horse is fine if you treat it like a party
>tell the psychic only suggests the psychic understands horses and dupes
>better than you do.
I watched a "psychic" "read" some horses a couple of years ago and it
was quite fascinating, watching her operate. First she asked for a
*very specific* description of any concerns the owners had about
the horses and any details they could provide that would be relevant.
The person talking then gave her *lots* of information. She made
a point of being very observant as well, without being overly
obtrusive about it. For a horse with an attitude problem, she
looked at all the blankets & stuff hanging on his door, and then
went into his stall, looked around at the bedding and walls,
and dangled a crystal underneath him, while getting a good
look at him and the surroundings. There were some scuff marks
on the walls at one side. There was a brand-new blanket hanging
over the door. She said that the horse said that he had a
new blanket, but that it was uncomfortable and made it hard
for him to get up and that it made him get cast in his stall
and that made him sore and that's partly why he was so grumpy.
He also said he liked one of his riders much better than the
other one -- re-iterating what the trainer had essentially
told her in the briefing and grafting on a reasonable guess
about their personalities from observation. She also took
copious notes, in case she got called back to "read" the same
horse again.
Everyone else was totally amazed. I thought, "I can do that
too". She made a bunch of perfectly reasonable guesses that
fit the evidence and could not really be verified in any other
way. It was, in its own way, impressive -- but it certainly
didn't require psychic ability.