Trouble selling Impressive AQHA horses?
PNORT
Impressive mare I'm trying to sell. She is hypp n/n. A dealer just told me
he's had trouble in NY selling Impressive horses, but down south and out west
folks don't seem as troubled by it (as long as the hypp n/n status is the
situation). I was wondering what experiences others have had? Thanks for
sharing....
CluesBird
I just bought an Impressive bred last year and know several others that have
bought them also.
I had a multitude of people "warn" me against the Impressive breds. Not
because of the HYPP thing but because they tend to "have a screw loose" as one
person put it. I have not found this to be in the least bit true however.
The Impressive bred horse I bought has one of the sweetest, quietest
dispositions I have come across in the 20+ I have been schlepping around these
animals. Not even a hint of having a "screw loose" and this one is only a 3 yr
old.
Now is she a the exception or the rule? I don't know. However, the horses, I
have been around out the same Impressive bred sire, are all pretty much the
same way. The babies are all out of different mare.
JMHO
Gina & Bird
Jane H. Kilberg
clue...@aol.com (CluesBird) wrote:
>I'm not aware of anyone having problems selling n/n Impressive horses.
>
>I just bought an Impressive bred last year and know several others that have
>bought them also.
>
>I had a multitude of people "warn" me against the Impressive breds. Not
>because of the HYPP thing but because they tend to "have a screw loose" as one
>person put it. I have not found this to be in the least bit true however.
I know several Impressive progeny that are a mite like Impressive!
>The Impressive bred horse I bought has one of the sweetest, quietest
>dispositions I have come across in the 20+ I have been schlepping around these
>animals. Not even a hint of having a "screw loose" and this one is only a 3 yr
>old.
>
>Now is she a the exception or the rule?
Neither one. Some progeny are like Impressive, some not. All depends on
whether or not the mare line passed on her own disposition.
down the spotted trails. . . in the great nation of Tejas
jane h. kilberg and her gang of spots (GOS)
member: ApHC, Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
editor/publisher: Appaloosa Network
Lee Hough
CluesBird wrote in message <19991009162839...@ng-xb1.aol.com>...
>>
>I had a multitude of people "warn" me against the Impressive breds. Not
>because of the HYPP thing but because they tend to "have a screw loose" as
one
>person put it. I have not found this to be in the least bit true however.
>
different mare lines - both had a propensity to flip out and throw their
riders with no apparent reason...one of these was given away and then sold
quite a few times due to 1. charging during lunging, 2. going over
backwards, 3. bucking off riders [me once!] when asked to canter 4. going
berserk during saddling - over backwards and hung up in crossties...the
other one just dumped the owner at least once a week - but on a good day
would clean up in WP! Bad front legs on both as well...worst front legs I
ever saw in my life were on an Impressive son - King Air??? - and a dozen
produce were in the same barn - all with the horrible over in the knees
front end!
Another filly I knew - out of an Impressive daughter - was also prone to
going over backwards also - broke the tree on a very expensive saddle once.
She was found dead in her paddock last year - probably a seizure related to
HYPP
>The Impressive bred horse I bought has one of the sweetest, quietest
>dispositions I have come across in the 20+ I have been schlepping around
these
>animals. Not even a hint of having a "screw loose" and this one is only a
3 yr
>old.
>
>Now is she a the exception or the rule? I don't know. However, the
horses, I
>have been around out the same Impressive bred sire, are all pretty much the
>same way. The babies are all out of different mare.
There will always be good and bad in every situatiton with horses - esp when
there is a generation or two between the initial problem and the subject
individual...The Impressive horses have a bad rep because there is such a
high percentage of them with either or both the HYPP issue and a rotten
temperment.
Lee Hough
pegasustimes1
I know that my two year old's sire came from a sire who was easy to
get along with and calm as they can be. and this sire of the two year
old had a momma that was pretty athletic and big. The two year old
filly's momma is double registered and got good breeding in her blood.
I had a half brother from same sire over a month and two days older
than TC when he was born had a personality that wasnt to my liking. He
got sold.
My two year old was 12 days older than another foal 4 years later
that when I had the first two mares drop close to each other who was
also her half brother as well...same momma.
well my two year old fily and that same two year old stud (he is sold)
both have c shaped star markings and dappled up nice.
One think I have to say about my six year old mare dee's dam favorite
she threw her looks to her babies.
I have seen hyper colts produced from one particular sire when I did
show my horses.
Lets just say....my two year old fily has the best looks of all
generations. I see her sire's color, hooves from granddam (dee's dam),
mane from sire, Tail color from darlin (sire's dam), and looks like
this filly might be as tall as Darlin if she keeps growing like she
does.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Pgleason97
>There will always be good and bad in every situatiton with horses - esp when
>there is a generation or two between the initial problem and the subject
>individual...The Impressive horses have a bad rep because there is such a
>high percentage of them with either or both the HYPP issue and a rotten
>temperment.
>
I have a question: wasn't Impressive an extraordinarily *popular* sire before
the HYPP thing came to light? Weren't his progeny multiple champions? And
wasn't he?
I don't claim to know a great deal about the QH industry, but back when I used
to read the QH journal about a decade ago, Impressive-bred horses seemed to be
quite the rage, and I remember hearing about them having *good* temperaments.
But maybe that was just the hype from the stallion ads for Impressive sons.
Anyway, it seems a little odd to me that Impressive would have been such a
well-known and used sire if he was just a nasty horse throwing a lot of
unpredictable and nasty offspring. Couldn't it be that the HYPP thing is
coloring his reputation as a sire in other areas as well?
Pam Gleason
Pglea...@aol.com
TrinityApp
-- > I don't claim to know a great deal about the QH industry, but back when
I used
> to read the QH journal about a decade ago, Impressive-bred horses seemed
to be
> quite the rage, and I remember hearing about them having *good*
temperaments
They pretty much dominated the halter industry and had little effect on the
performance arena.
> But maybe that was just the hype from the stallion ads for Impressive
sons.
> Anyway, it seems a little odd to me that Impressive would have been such a
> well-known and used sire if he was just a nasty horse throwing a lot of
> unpredictable and nasty offspring
Man O'War's grandsire Hasting was supposedly one of the nastiest SOB's on
the track but that didn't stop him from breeding him, good thing too.'
I dealt with the Impressive horses very little since we had no interest in
QH halter, but I boarded with an App breeder who loved the Impressive horses
and his stallion was a nasty horse temperament wise, but only toward people
(yes I know bad handling and all) However, we did see Conclusive in person
before he succumbed to HYPP and he was a T-total shit no questions asked.
. Couldn't it be that the HYPP thing is
> coloring his reputation as a sire in other areas as well?
Long before HYPP was mentioned breeders knew about Impressive syndrome and
the performance people avoided him. I've only ridden two close Impressive
bred horses and their gaits were horrible, short stride and ponderous.
Tracy Meisenbach
http://www.users.lynchburg.net/trinityapp/
Trinity Appaloosa Farm
http://www.stylinontheweb.com/receq/
Horse Diary latest entry 10-7-99
OSGSL
CHilde6425
>the HYPP thing came to light? Weren't his progeny multiple champions? And
>wasn't he?
In every breed people overlook the problems in order to win, and the Impressive
horses won! That's why many breeds have become split between halter horses and
performance horses with very few on either side being able to cross over to the
other.I'ts fairly glaring that Impressive never did anything in the performance
show ring and the battle in the Arabian world about getting rid of the
performance requirment for halter champions is a symptom of the same separation
between halter and performance. Halter winners should be the best
representatives of their breed and judges should be placing horses with the
conformation that allows them to excell as performance animals. After all what
else are our horses for?
Candy Marianos
(breeding that is ) don't touch it with a ten foot pole. Fair or not
(in my estimation probably not fair without all kinds of testing) that's
the way it is. Deserved or not, the Impressive line has a bad
reputation. That's all I know about it where I live. For what it's
worth which is pretty much nothing. :-)
Robinson
The FAHR won't register any horse with Impressive breeding, regardless
of the HYPP status, no matter how far back it is. How's that for
prejudice, deserved or not, regarding a particular bloodline?
Lorri
AlaTmPnr
The FAHR won't register any horse with Impressive breeding, regardless
of the HYPP status, no matter how far back it is. How's that for
prejudice, deserved or not, regarding a particular bloodline?
Impressive is not a foundation horse but a fairly modern horse and so it is
only one line of many not allowed in. It is not predjudice but simply sticking
with the charter and goals of the organization.
Bill
Robinson
No, I wasn't saying it was prejudice in a bad way. I'm in favor of it.
And it isn't because of foundation bloodlines. If you go to the FAHR
site http://members.xoom.com/fahr_inc/ and look at Ineligible Horses, it
clearly states:
FAHR will not register horses descending from families known to carry
HYPP, regardless of generation or pedigree.
To be eligible for registry in FAHR, a horse must carry 75% Appaloosa
blood. A horse can have one non-Appaloosa in the 4th generation,
counting the horse itself as the 1st generation. The only bloodlines
disallowed by the FAHR are HYPP carriers--or Impressive breeding. The
horse can't exhibit the greying gene, or have pinto characteristics,
either.
Any Appaloosa with 75% App blood and non-HYPP bloodlines, non-grey, and
non-pinto can be registered with FAHR. No other bloodlines are
prohibited.
Lorri
AlaTmPnr
>FAHR will not register horses descending from families known to carry
HYPP, regardless of generation or pedigree.
Lorri .. thanks .. I understood that but was simply making the point of the
goals and charter.
>To be eligible for registry in FAHR, a horse must carry 75% Appaloosa
blood. A horse can have one non-Appaloosa in the 4th generation,
counting the horse itself as the 1st generation. The only bloodlines
disallowed by the FAHR are HYPP carriers--or Impressive breeding. The
horse can't exhibit the greying gene, or have pinto characteristics,
either.
Very good ... its a shame that it is like closing the barn door after the horse
has escaped. Now if folks will just stick with the charter and goals.
Bill
Brandis
news:19991009155509...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> Have any of you had trouble selling Impressive bred AQHA horses?
Absolutely. There are a couple very prominent vets here that advise
STRONGLY against purchasing a QH from the Impressive line as they feel that
they have too many things stacked against them. It's not that you can't
find a good, healthy one, but there are a lot of choices out there and these
vets advise looking further before settling on an Impressive decendent. I
tend to agree from what I've heard, even with our limited local market of
late... (Alaska)
HSOC
Lee Hough
Susan Ravan wrote in message <3802817C...@ellijay.com.>...
>I'm not QH expert, but I believe that I read that the top 10 halter sires
today
>are all Impressive bred horses.
>Susan
>
So what? No one has disputed that he had the confirmation and passed it on
that the AQHA judges liked/still like. Mr Prospector [TB] is one of the
most important, sought after sires of recent history in racing - but he had
HORRIBLE front legs! Bred for a high percentage of breakdowns - but also
winners and those winners doing well siring winners...to hell with correct
confirmation...people bred for one thing, and take the bad along with it
because winning is what it is all about.
>Pgleason97 wrote:
>
>> Lee Hough wrote:
>>
The Impressive horses have a bad rep because there is such a
>> >high percentage of them with either or both the HYPP issue and a rotten
>> >temperment.
>> >
>>
>> I have a question: wasn't Impressive an extraordinarily *popular* sire
before
>> the HYPP thing came to light? Weren't his progeny multiple champions? And
>> wasn't he?
>>
Lee: See above - yes he sired halter winners, yes he was a halter champion
many times over...I don't follow the statistics on QH - winning is what it
is about.
>> I don't claim to know a great deal about the QH industry, but back when I
used
>> to read the QH journal about a decade ago, Impressive-bred horses seemed
to be
>> quite the rage, and I remember hearing about them having *good*
temperaments.
>> But maybe that was just the hype from the stallion ads for Impressive
sons.
>> Anyway, it seems a little odd to me that Impressive would have been such
a
>> well-known and used sire if he was just a nasty horse throwing a lot of
>> unpredictable and nasty offspring. Couldn't it be that the HYPP thing is
>> coloring his reputation as a sire in other areas as well?
>>
Lee: what the stud farm/syndicate manager said about Mr. Prospector when
he died - not looking up the quote word for word - but the point was: the
more winners he sired, the better those front legs looked....And there were
many TBs known for less than wonderful temperments - Ribot, Bold Ruler,
Nashua, Nasrullah - the great race horses - all competitive - all
aggessive...but these horses are in almost every pedigree you look at
today - some of them cross breeds like Bold Ruler/Nasrullah! Not everyone
is trying to breed a well rounded animal - they are breeding for a specific
goal and to hell with the rest of the animal.
lee hough
I talked to a couple people who saw Impressive after his show career was
over and he was being used as a stallion - they all agreed that he was a
nasty bugger...
>> Pam Gleason
>> Pglea...@aol.com
>
>
>
Pgleason97
>..And there were
>many TBs known for less than wonderful temperments - Ribot, Bold Ruler,
>Nashua, Nasrullah - the great race horses - all competitive - all
>aggessive...but these horses are in almost every pedigree you look at
>today - some of them cross breeds like Bold Ruler/Nasrullah! Not everyone
>is trying to breed a well rounded animal - they are breeding for a specific
>goal and to hell with the rest of the animal.
Actually, it should be no surprise that TBs temperaments are overlooked when it
comes to the breeding shed since being tractable & running fast on a track have
little to do with one another (so long as the horse will let a jockey up on him
and will break from the gate without killing anyone). Eclipse, who is in
something like 90% of TB pedigrees was said to be so vicious he was
untrainable, and yet he never lost a race. That's Thoroughbred Foundation stock
for you.
Quarter Horses, which come with a great deal of hype about their versatility
and good tempers, and which are supposed to be using horses, I would think are
a different kettle of fish. Did Impressive have no performance credentials at
all? No Pleasure points? No offspring that did anything besides stand in a ring
and look pretty?
I'm not trying to argue for Impressive here, since I am not really familiar
with him. I'm just trying to understand why the universe seems to have turned
so dramatically against a sire that was once so popular. Please don't everybody
stand up and say I don't understand about the serious genetic flaw he seems to
have passed on, because that's not the point of what I'm asking. I'm just
wondering if the opposite of the "Mr. Prospector bad front legs" syndrome is
going on here. Maybe the more we learn about HYPP, the worse Impressive's
temperament gets.
Pam Gleason
Pglea...@aol.com
Jane H. Kilberg
pglea...@aol.com (Pgleason97) wrote:
(snipped parts)
>Did Impressive have no performance credentials at
>all? No Pleasure points?
Impressive earned 48 halter points. He was not a riding horse.
>No offspring that did anything besides stand in a ring
>and look pretty?
Some have gone into performance depending on dam's line, however, his
offspring are more noted for halter than performance. The third and fourth
and succeeding generations have produced more performance horses.
> Maybe the more we learn about HYPP, the worse Impressive's
>temperament gets.
Impressive was well known for his temperament, even before the HYPP
discovery. However, he did revolutionize the halter industry and
contributed to a good halter line.
ElizabethK
Interesting subject. Since my family has been on the lookout for a new
horse we have come across many ads which have read thus.
"Nice solid paint horse. No Impressive in bloodline" .....
and of course hundreds of HYPP neg. ads. Since I did not know the
horse in question, I wonder if his breedings dropped to nil after the
HYPP was diagnosed, or was it found out only after his death. And if
before, did people breed to him anyway, just because he was
spectacular in conformation. And in fact "was" he really that
spectacular that people flocked to him in spite of his obvious
nastiness - or was it kept as secret as possible during his breeding
lifetime? Also, if he had this disease, then he must have had it in
his bloodline so why didn't people associate maybe his sire or
grandsire with it, rather than always Impressive.
I gather it is found in other breeds also. Is it associated with
Impressive because he sired so many offspring and was apparently very
famous or was it that many of his offspring also were found to have it
and that caused an uproar to those who had bred to him and now owned
these horses? I never read ads in other breeds with HYPP neg.included.
LizK
Jane H. Kilberg
eliza...@nospamearthlink.net wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:59:22 -0500, jkil...@mcia.com (Jane H.
>Kilberg) wrote:
>
>>In article <19991011023408...@ng-xb1.aol.com>,
>>pglea...@aol.com (Pgleason97) wrote:
>>(snipped parts)
>>>Did Impressive have no performance credentials at
>>>all? No Pleasure points?
>>
>>Impressive earned 48 halter points. He was not a riding horse.
>>
>>>No offspring that did anything besides stand in a ring
>>>and look pretty?
>>
>>Some have gone into performance depending on dam's line, however, his
>>offspring are more noted for halter than performance. The third and fourth
>>and succeeding generations have produced more performance horses.
>>
>>> Maybe the more we learn about HYPP, the worse Impressive's
>>>temperament gets.
>>
>>Impressive was well known for his temperament, even before the HYPP
>>discovery. However, he did revolutionize the halter industry and
>>contributed to a good halter line.
>Interesting subject. Since my family has been on the lookout for a new
>horse we have come across many ads which have read thus.
>"Nice solid paint horse. No Impressive in bloodline" .....
>and of course hundreds of HYPP neg. ads. Since I did not know the
>horse in question, I wonder if his breedings dropped to nil after the
>HYPP was diagnosed, or was it found out only after his death.
It was known well prior to his death and no, breedings to him did not drop.
>And if
>before, did people breed to him anyway, just because he was
>spectacular in conformation. And in fact "was" he really that
>spectacular that people flocked to him in spite of his obvious
>nastiness - or was it kept as secret as possible during his breeding
>lifetime?
No, his temperament wasn't a secret. And people used him because his
progeny were cleaning up the halter ring.
>Also, if he had this disease, then he must have had it in
>his bloodline so why didn't people associate maybe his sire or
>grandsire with it, rather than always Impressive.
Because it is a mutated gene. IOW, it didn't exist until Impressive was
born. And Impressive was a carrier, in that, he was never inflicted with
the disease.
>I gather it is found in other breeds also. Is it associated with
>Impressive because he sired so many offspring and was apparently very
>famous or was it that many of his offspring also were found to have it
>and that caused an uproar to those who had bred to him and now owned
>these horses? I never read ads in other breeds with HYPP neg.included.
HYPP is associated with Impressive because he is ground zero for the
mutated gene. In the 1980s, no one really knew what was happening to their
horses. Then someone began to note that these horses all had one thing in
common - lineage. So the research at U of CA at Davis began.
In the Appaloosa Journal, some ads do state HYPP negative.
mt_...@my-deja.com
eliza...@nospamearthlink.net wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:59:22 -0500, jkil...@mcia.com (Jane H.
> Kilberg) wrote:
>
> >In article <19991011023408...@ng-xb1.aol.com>,
> >pglea...@aol.com (Pgleason97) wrote:
> >(snipped parts)
> >>Did Impressive have no performance credentials at
> >>all? No Pleasure points?
> >
> >Impressive earned 48 halter points. He was not a riding horse.
> >
> >>No offspring that did anything besides stand in a ring
> >>and look pretty?
> >
> >Some have gone into performance depending on dam's line, however, his
> >offspring are more noted for halter than performance. The third and
fourth
> >and succeeding generations have produced more performance horses.
> >
> >> Maybe the more we learn about HYPP, the worse Impressive's
> >>temperament gets.
> >
> >Impressive was well known for his temperament, even before the HYPP
> >discovery. However, he did revolutionize the halter industry and
> >contributed to a good halter line.
> >
> >jane h. kilberg and her gang of spots (GOS)
> >member: ApHC, Montgomery County Adult Horse Committee
> >editor/publisher: Appaloosa Network
>
> horse we have come across many ads which have read thus.
> "Nice solid paint horse. No Impressive in bloodline" .....
> and of course hundreds of HYPP neg. ads. Since I did not know the
> horse in question, I wonder if his breedings dropped to nil after the
> before, did people breed to him anyway, just because he was
> spectacular in conformation. And in fact "was" he really that
> spectacular that people flocked to him in spite of his obvious
> nastiness - or was it kept as secret as possible during his breeding
> his bloodline so why didn't people associate maybe his sire or
> grandsire with it, rather than always Impressive.
> Impressive because he sired so many offspring and was apparently very
> famous or was it that many of his offspring also were found to have it
> and that caused an uproar to those who had bred to him and now owned
> these horses? I never read ads in other breeds with HYPP neg.included.
>
> I have owned many horses and dogs, both papered and unpapered.
Admittedly, I have no interest in showing or breeding. I buy horses to
ride, and select them based solely on temperament, intelligence and
soundness. I hand pick dogs from shelters based solely on temperament,
intelligence and companionship. Naturally, I never buy pups or colts.
Given this criteria, I never found a breed registry to be of any value
whatsoever in selecting suitable animals. To the contrary, I've seen
alot of registered animals that can't hold a candle to my hand picked
grade horses and mongrels. In show horses, alot of money is spent and
alot of attention paid to these supposedly great beasts, which then have
to be alcohol-injected, corrected, braced, trained, tied, stretched,
restrained, pulled, pushed, teased and tortured for that fabulous
natural look. Really...it's all in the breeding, you know. Now, none of
my critters will ever be subjects of a Courier & Ives painting, but when
the going gets rough, they'll sure get you up the hill. And I'm not
alone-I've read at least one article by a nationally recognized large
animal vet who argues that halter classes should be outlawed.
I know I'm gonna catch hell from alot of show people out there, but
really folks, the Emperor isn't wearing anything at all.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jane H. Kilberg
(snipped parts)
>> I have owned many horses and dogs, both papered and unpapered.
>Admittedly, I have no interest in showing or breeding. I buy horses to
>ride, and select them based solely on temperament, intelligence and
>soundness.
>Given this criteria, I never found a breed registry to be of any value
>whatsoever in selecting suitable animals. To the contrary, I've seen
>alot of registered animals that can't hold a candle to my hand picked
>grade horses and mongrels.
Yup, until you get a grade horse who has HYPP and you didn't know it
because you don't find registries to be of value.
John Parker
this the horses did have to compete in performance events... I believe in
breeding that the mare is more important than the stallion... I have heard a
lot of people slam Impressive bred horses without failing to realize that
there was a lot more to his offspring than his genetics, how about the
breeding of the mares he was bred to doesn't that contribute anything to the
foals? Or, was Impressive such a great stallion that he stamped his halter
quality on his foals and the mare didn't matter? Sure ,everybody has stories
of Impressive breds but how many of these people have actually raised one?
Does having Impressive in the pedigree mean the other horses in the pedigree
means nothing?
pegasustimes1
but TWH were closing the books so Dee got two sets and if I wanted to
three. HEr sire was not only twh and SSH registry that she was
registered in but the other SSH registry pinto and racking.
Now on ping's pedigree
her sire TC was out of a SSH-racking mare and a racking-ssh-twh stud
Darlin (tc's dam) had 45 show ring world champions and was a
foundation sire in the ssh, racking and in the other spotted registry.
Some consider Darlin's sire as a single registered because he doesnt
have twh papers but his bloodline has good halter horses and good all
around athletes
Now, TC's sire had a good personality and if I had kept the double bred
go boy again mare I would have bred her to TC's half brother because
before TC was even born his sire died of illness. All the horses from
that stud Darlin was bred to to get TC was gentle natured and easy
going.
Now I sold a mare who threw looks to her babies...ie Dee's dam. She was
bred to a stud from spotted allen agian breeding and ended up darn
good. This mare threw looks to her babies.
Ping as a filly has the looks for halter events especially model
mare. I see parts of her family tree back to her granddam Darlin. I see
Darlin's tail and possibly some her height because I think ping will be
bigger than her dam.
Candy Lynn
any horse I've owned. Everyone at the barn loves him for his SWEET, Loving
nature. Really more people than horse. He is in training for a dressage
career.
I do agree that breeding of anything but n/n should be stopped.
Equinimity
in the mix?
Claudia, adding fuel to the fire in Central New York
mt_...@my-deja.com
Actually, the last grade horse I bought was a buck skin that my vet was
suspicious about, so we sent a blood sample to WSU. It came back
negative, cost me $45.00, and is more reliable than playing genetic
roulette with a pedigree.
The Kelpie
positive horses in the appaloosa breed. Several of the "top" stallions are
positive including Impressive Andrew (for sure) and we can assume Private
Collection (since his 1/2 brother is advertised on the same page as neg and he
isn't). Most of the Black Horse Ranch stallions are and Karen Grim is open
about the fact she thinks HYPP is no big dea (and consequently keeps producing
and promoting more and more positive horses). The ApHC has copletely caved in
to these infleuntial breeders and failed to take any stand on the issue. Even
the AQHA requires that it be noted on the papers, and I believe the APHA also.
Only the ApHC lags behind as usual because it doesn't have the guts to make a
move against the "big boys".
Paula
Jane H. Kilberg
thek...@aol.com (The Kelpie) wrote:
>I think the real tragedy here is how many people are still breeding the HYPP
>positive horses in the appaloosa breed.
I don't think anyone really knows. AFAIK, there hasn't been any study into it.
>Several of the "top" stallions are
>positive including Impressive Andrew (for sure) and we can assume Private
>Collection (since his 1/2 brother is advertised on the same page as neg and he
>isn't).
Assuming something without fact is more of a rumour mill than anything else.
>Most of the Black Horse Ranch stallions are and Karen Grim is open
>about the fact she thinks HYPP is no big dea (and consequently keeps producing
>and promoting more and more positive horses).
From what I understand, her horses are from Dreamfinder line. Perhaps some
are carriers. Unless you have access to the test results, you need to be
careful as to what you are saying. As to whether or not something thinks
HYPP is NBD, is a personal choice. There are breeders & owners who accept
carrier status on their horses, but perhaps wouldn't accept H/H status.
>The ApHC has copletely caved in
>to these infleuntial breeders and failed to take any stand on the issue.
Well, some people want a Big Brother type government, and others don't. At
board meetings, this issue has been discussed. The problem deals with
enforcement. If a governmental body requires testing of all Impressive
bloodline horses, what is the next step....does the ApHC then require
testing for bloodlines passing on other defective genes? They did consider
all possibilities and felt that education for the membership was the least
invasive route to take. Articles in the Journal and announcements at the
sales as well as encouragement to place info in ads has all helped in the
educational process.
>Even
>the AQHA requires that it be noted on the papers, and I believe the APHA also.
>Only the ApHC lags behind as usual because it doesn't have the guts to make a
>move against the "big boys".
I think the main thing is education and education about HYPP certain has
been in the media for a few years. If a buyer of a potential HYPP horse is
concerned, then he/she should make sure a test is done and if so, to
verify results.
Considering the sales 3 & 4 years ago, there are a whole lot less
Impressive horses around. Economics, as usual, will dictate the market.
K. Smith
news:7tu5il$m1t$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...
<snip>
> Sure ,everybody has stories
> of Impressive breds but how many of these people have actually raised one?
> Does having Impressive in the pedigree mean the other horses in the
pedigree
> means nothing?
I've never raised an Impressive-bred horse, but I was acquainted with two
Impressive-bred stallions, one an own son of Impressive and the other a son
of Impressive Andrew. The latter won a world championship in trail and
actually didn't seem to be "extra beefy" in build. The former looked like he
was bred for slaughter. Both had very nasty, unpleasant personalities.
--K. Smith (I'm glad that none of my Appies are descended from Impressive,
but I do have to deal with a Go Man Go/Top Deck/Easy Jet mare and her "just
like Mom" son.)
Pgleason97
> (I'm glad that none of my Appies are descended from Impressive,
>but I do have to deal with a Go Man Go/Top Deck/Easy Jet mare and her "just
>like Mom" son.)
>
Wait. You're not going to tell me that *those* bloodlines have a bad reputation
are you?
I've had (and/or worked with) five Go Man Go line horses. All of them were
totally cool - laid back when you wanted to be, but with plenty of energy when
you asked them to do anything. I kind of thought that that was what Go Man Go
offspring were like.
Pam Gleason
Pglea...@aol.com
Dana Compton
Dana (gotta learn more, gotta learn more)
and Cricket
http://hometown.aol.com/danancrkt/myhomepage/photo.html
R Bishop
"K. Smith" <ka...@gcom-umc.org> wrote:
>John Parker <jpa...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:7tu5il$m1t$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...
>
> <snip>
>
>> Sure ,everybody has stories
>> of Impressive breds but how many of these people have actually raised one?
>> Does having Impressive in the pedigree mean the other horses in the
>pedigree
>> means nothing?
>
>I've never raised an Impressive-bred horse, but I was acquainted with two
>Impressive-bred stallions, one an own son of Impressive and the other a son
>of Impressive Andrew. The latter won a world championship in trail and
>actually didn't seem to be "extra beefy" in build. The former looked like he
>was bred for slaughter. Both had very nasty, unpleasant personalities.
>
Totally anecdotal, but I had ONE Impressive granddaughter. This was years before
HYPP was discovered. She was a lovely filly but hateful and nasty and terrible
to handle. I finally gave up after I was working with her one day and she
cow-kicked clear up to her ears, her hoof whizzing past my head. Scared me,
I decided life was too short to deal with this, especially since she also
bit and struck with her front feet. This was as an 18 month old. Gawd
knows how she turned out, I took her to Tattersalls and dumped her.
Sue
>--K. Smith (I'm glad that none of my Appies are descended from Impressive,
>but I do have to deal with a Go Man Go/Top Deck/Easy Jet mare and her "just
>like Mom" son.)
>
>
Official Secretary of OSGSL
Dogs think they're human
Cats think they're God
Jane H. Kilberg
dana...@aol.com (Dana Compton) wrote:
>Is there a web site that will give me more info on this disease?
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/hypp.html
http://www.freeyellow.com/members5/hypp/hypp.html
http://www.equinedesigns.com/hypparticle.htm
http://www.iaep.com/pages/bulletins/health/hypp.html
http://www.iaep.com/pages/nutrition/neutraceuticals/hypp.html
p&m
kirsti_s...@remove.hp.com
>Is there a web site that will give me more info on this disease?
Actually, there are several...
>Dana (gotta learn more, gotta learn more)
Go to your search engine and type HYPP.
Kirsti
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
snip
>I've had (and/or worked with) five Go Man Go line horses. All of them were
>totally cool - laid back when you wanted to be, but with plenty of energy when
>you asked them to do anything. I kind of thought that that was what Go Man Go
>offspring were like.
Go Man Go's get can be tough-minded and hot, especially the mares, I
think. A lot of times I think they get mishandled; they also seem to
do better with few and consistent handlers. I worked with a Go Man Go
line mare last winter who was hot, spooky and could be difficult--but
man, when you asked her to do something, she gave it to you and was
very, very lovely, collected up easily and looked like a QH warmblood
(I wish a dressage meister had laid eyes on her, this gal had it in
her). But she is in her teens and has passed through several owners
and our guess is that she's been mistreated at some point.
Now her yearling filly is a sweetheart, but she's been under
consistent professional supervision from the start. Potentially pushy
and hot from the start, she's not been allowed to learn bad habits and
in return she's been taught to remain quiet and calm in the face of
weirdness. So far, so good--she's well-sacked out.
jrw
CJ
Karen is also a very selective breeder. I have shown against Karen many
times in ETI and PCap when she lived here in Shadow Hill. This was way
before she even had Appy's. Thats when she was breeding her black
Thoroughbred stud. Thats where the name Black Horse Ranch came from.(Just a
little history on Karen ) Her horses mean the world to her and if she felt
that she was doing harm in any way for the breed she would do her best to
fix the problem.
Cara
Jane H. Kilberg <jkil...@mcia.com> wrote in message
news:jkilberg-121...@ts4p21.mcia.com...
Jane H. Kilberg
(snipped parts)
>Karen has allot of Impressive breed horses and also allot of Dreamfinders.
>Karen is also a very selective breeder. I have shown against Karen many
>times in ETI and PCap when she lived here in Shadow Hill. This was way
>before she even had Appy's. Thats when she was breeding her black
>Thoroughbred stud. Thats where the name Black Horse Ranch came from.(Just a
>little history on Karen ) Her horses mean the world to her and if she felt
>that she was doing harm in any way for the breed she would do her best to
>fix the problem.
I've met Karen several times and she's one heck of a knowledgeable person.
I agree with your statements.
Maybe one day, I'll get her to paint a likeness of my stallion Tarzan on a
model horse!
The Kelpie
>Assuming something without fact is more of a rumour mill than anything else.
When a farm advertises two stallions by they same impressive bred stallion on
the same page and one is labled HYPP n/n and the other isn't I think it is a
pretty safe assumption. But I will admit I could be wrong on that one (but I
did say that I wasn't sure but only assuming).
I am sure that Impressive Andrew is positive, knowing several people with
positive foals.
>
>
>>Most of the Black Horse Ranch stallions are and Karen Grim is open
>>about the fact she thinks HYPP is no big dea (and consequently keeps
>producing
>>and promoting more and more positive horses).
>
>From what I understand, her horses are from Dreamfinder line. Perhaps some
>are carriers. Unless you have access to the test results, you need to be
>careful as to what you are saying. As to whether or not something thinks
>HYPP is NBD, is a personal choice. There are breeders & owners who accept
>carrier status on their horses, but perhaps wouldn't accept H/H status
Karen Grimm has been very open on the AOL board about the fact that several of
her stallions and other horses are positive (she has several Impressive Andrew
line horses). She appears to be proud of the fact so I can't see that she
would care. No rumors here just fact.
I guess I am sensitive to the issue having watched two foals die in front of me
from HYPP seizures. Its not pretty and I just don't see the point of
perpetuating this genetic defect.
While I woud prefer testing I do think the least the ApHC should do is HYPP
warnings put on the papers similar to the AQHA. It might suprise you but a
hell of a lot of people still don't know what the disease is if you are not
involved in breed circuit type activities. For example, a pony clubber where I
used to board (large eventing/dressage barn) was trying out an app for
purchase. We were standing around and they mentioned the horse had vetted well
other than the fact the last owner said it had a disease that caused seizures
but that medication controled it. They and nobody else had any idea what HYPP
was. None of the four trainers at the barn had ever heard of it (you don't have
this problem in the dressage and eventing world typically given they typically
aren't performance horses). I was able to point them in the direction of
getting info on the net and they turned down the horse. I think it was a smart
move as I personally would not want my child going x-country on a horse that
was prone to HYPP type seizures.
In the quarter horse land of Texas people might know about this disease, but in
other areas it is still not that well known. At least if it was on the papers
people might think to ask what it is.
Paula
Alwzhorsn
>In defense of Impressive, he did sire more AQHA Champions then King...
To really look at this correctly one needs to use their percentage of champions
and also keep in mind the differences in marketing, accessibility of mares,
etc. I'd look up the percentages but all my Legends books are on loan to a
4Her.
>Does having Impressive in the pedigree mean the other horses in the pedigree
means nothing?>
If the horse is HYPP positive? you bet
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
Alwzhorsn
> It might suprise you but a hell of a lot of people still don't know what the
disease is if you are not involved in breed circuit type activities. For
example, a pony clubber where I used to board (large eventing/dressage barn)
was trying out an app for purchase. We were standing around and they mentioned
the horse had vetted well other than the fact the last owner said it had a
disease that caused seizures but that medication controled it. They and nobody
else had any idea what HYPP was. None of the four trainers at the barn had ever
heard of it (you don't have
this problem in the dressage and eventing world typically given they typically
aren't performance horses). >
I have experienced the same lack of knowledge amongst some Arab folks, even
some who are involved in breeding Half Arabians. I wish the major horse
publications would cover it a bit more as well as the breed publications.
Knowledge is power.
Jennifer
alwz...@aol.com
TrinityApp
-- > I have experienced the same lack of knowledge amongst some Arab folks,
even
> some who are involved in breeding Half Arabians. I wish the major horse
> publications would cover it a bit more as well as the breed publications.
> Knowledge is power.
Worse is even the grade people don't hear of it. My friends in VA bought a
QH from Tx (from a guy now restrained until Uncle Sam get his). Heavy
muscled, 9 years old, chestnut, no papers. Supposed to be a rope horse but
has completely unblemished legs and looks like it's never spent the night
outdoors. A few weeks into riding down it goes. Diagnosis: Azotoria. I came
back to visit, took one look at the horse and the Impressive whistle went
off. This horse looked just like him! They had the vet out. HYPP positive.
He was a registered horse, but the guy pulled the papers because he was more
valuable as a grade with no affiliation to Impressive then as an Impressive
bred horse. The USDA got all over the sellers ass about this horse and
several others and he's now in jail.
Tracy Meisenbach
http://www.users.lynchburg.net/trinityapp/
Trinity Appaloosa Farm
http://www.stylinontheweb.com/receq/
Horse Diary latest entry 10-7-99
OSGSL
Alwzhorsn <alwz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991012221653...@ng-ce1.aol.com...
> thekelpie wrote:
> > It might suprise you but a hell of a lot of people still don't know what
the
> disease is if you are not involved in breed circuit type activities. For
> example, a pony clubber where I used to board (large eventing/dressage
barn)
> was trying out an app for purchase. We were standing around and they
mentioned
> the horse had vetted well other than the fact the last owner said it had a
> disease that caused seizures but that medication controled it. They and
nobody
> else had any idea what HYPP was. None of the four trainers at the barn had
ever
> heard of it (you don't have
> this problem in the dressage and eventing world typically given they
typically
> aren't performance horses). >
>
>
> Jennifer
> alwz...@aol.com
>
Jane H. Kilberg
<trini...@lynchburg.net> wrote:
(snipped parts)
>They had the vet out. HYPP positive.
>He was a registered horse, but the guy pulled the papers because he was more
>valuable as a grade with no affiliation to Impressive then as an Impressive
>bred horse. The USDA got all over the sellers ass about this horse and
>several others and he's now in jail.
So how did the USDA get involved with someone who sold a horse who had HYPP?
K. Smith
>
<snippage before and after>
>
> Go Man Go's get can be tough-minded and hot, especially the mares
That's what I've been told over and over for the Go Man Go lines, as well as
the Top Deck and Easy Jet lines--and my mare certainly is living proof of
that, having a triple dose so to speak. Her son (who is a grandson of Rock
Star on his sire's side) got her personality in full force, although he's
not nearly as buddy sour as she is.
--K. Smith (I'm beginning to long for something old, quiet, and phlegmatic.)
Jane H. Kilberg
<smi...@dma.org> wrote:
>Joyce Reynolds-Ward <j...@aracnet.com> wrote:
>>
> <snippage before and after>
>>
>> Go Man Go's get can be tough-minded and hot, especially the mares
>
>That's what I've been told over and over for the Go Man Go lines, as well as
>the Top Deck and Easy Jet lines--and my mare certainly is living proof of
>that, having a triple dose so to speak. Her son (who is a grandson of Rock
>Star on his sire's side) got her personality in full force, although he's
>not nearly as buddy sour as she is.
And yet I had a Go Man Go great grandson who was as laid-back as can be. ;-)
TrinityApp
--> So how did the USDA get involved with someone who sold a horse who had
HYPP?
It didn't get involved over the HYPP, it got involved over the illegal
transportation of horse between states, Texas to VA. The seller was from
Amarillo and was transporting horses without proper paperwork and then
selling horses without bills of sell and health records. The USDA frowns on
transporting livestock without proper paperwork. The IRS busted him too from
not reporting income. In all he was a very bad boy.
Jane H. Kilberg
<trini...@lynchburg.net> wrote:
>Jane wrote:
>
>--> So how did the USDA get involved with someone who sold a horse who had
>HYPP?
>
>It didn't get involved over the HYPP, it got involved over the illegal
>transportation of horse between states, Texas to VA. The seller was from
>Amarillo and was transporting horses without proper paperwork and then
>selling horses without bills of sell and health records. The USDA frowns on
>transporting livestock without proper paperwork.
Yeah, they do like those CVIs, but dang, usually one just gets a fine &
slap on the wrist.
>The IRS busted him too from
>not reporting income. In all he was a very bad boy.
LOL....they must of been after him for quite some time.
TrinityApp
--
> Yeah, they do like those CVIs, but dang, usually one just gets a fine &
> slap on the wrist.
I think it was coupled with bad manifests, forged certificates and just
lying like a dog in general.
> >The IRS busted him too from
> >not reporting income. In all he was a very bad boy.
>
> LOL....they must of been after him for quite some time.
>
He did the loop for about 3 years back here. Bringing REAL TEXAS COWPONIES
for the locals to buy. He stuck so many people its unreal. Max Tiepero got
stuck with a major cribber and he was beyond pissed. The horse trader called
Bodie from Amarillo is not a nice guy.
Arizona Vixen
wrote:
> Joyce Reynolds-Ward <j...@aracnet.com> wrote:
> >
> <snippage before and after>
> >
> > Go Man Go's get can be tough-minded and hot, especially the mares
>
> That's what I've been told over and over for the Go Man Go lines, as well as
> the Top Deck and Easy Jet lines--and my mare certainly is living proof of
> that, having a triple dose so to speak. Her son (who is a grandson of Rock
> Star on his sire's side) got her personality in full force, although he's
> not nearly as buddy sour as she is.
>
I had an ApHC registered grandson of Jet Deck -- beautiful,
blanketed
Appaloosa who thought he was hot stuff. He was. I had to sell him if I
wanted to see my next birthday. A beautiful animal, reall awesome, but
more than I could handle. And what an attitude!
Vicki
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Carol Nichols
Looked at a very nice (and obviously a) QH gelding last summer, nice trail
manners, nice gaits, nice build. Said to be about 7 years old, but his papers
had been "lost" somewhere along the line. I arranged with the trainer for a 30
day trail period at her barn, during which time I told her I would have the
horse vetted and tested for HYPP. Two days later, the owner of the horse
decided he didn't like the 30 day trial period, and wanted an answer from me
*now* about whether or not I wanted the horse.
Thanks, but no thanks.
It all worked out for the best, I found Kylee a couple months later, and I'm a
happy camper today. (I like 'em better with spots anyway.....gives 'em
character!)
On another subject.....Kylee made her debut on the trail last weekend, and
survived admirably. She met her first bicyclemonsters, and found out they
spoke nicely to horses! Another woman concentrating on her exercise approached
us, and Kylee started to meander in her direction. Kylee seemed quite curious
about this human that wouldn't come visit her! But of all things, she was
afraid of the park bench.....had to tuck in right behind Roni's steady butt for
safely, then got mad when he swished his tail and hit her in the face<BG>
Carol Nichols and Kylee
Libertyville, IL
You'll *spot* us on the trail!
Justine Richards
PNORT wrote:
> Have any of you had trouble selling Impressive bred AQHA horses? I have an
> Impressive mare I'm trying to sell. She is hypp n/n. A dealer just told me
> he's had trouble in NY selling Impressive horses, but down south and out west
> folks don't seem as troubled by it (as long as the hypp n/n status is the
> situation). I was wondering what experiences others have had? Thanks for
> sharing....
Donna Morris
the modern Quarter Horse. I have both types, the Foundation bred horse with
zero TB blood, and a great-grandson of Impressive via Zip to Impress. The
latter is a 16.2 hh gelding, with no hypp and exceptionally intelligent. I
love working with him every day. The Foundation horses might be calmer, and
in my opinion will ultimately do more for the breed by allowing it to remain
"true to type," but the TB blood is a good thing in some horses and I think
there is room for all of them.
To say Impressive did nothing but look handsome is a bit of a discredit to
him. He has also sired performance horses and the very definition of a
conformation horse is that he should be able to perform at SOMETHING. If
not, we're in big trouble.