Has anyone successfully cured a windsucker?
Sr Lynn McHardy
>> I was just talking about you today :)
>> Friend of mine has a mare that windsucks *badly*... and they've tried
>> just about everything to get her to stop with no luck.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> M.
Sr Lynn McHardy wrote:
Windsucking from which end?
Vulva windsucking needs a caslicks operation (sewing up of the vulva
lips
as far as the pelvic brim, leaving a gap ventrally for her to pass
urine)
Crib biting windsucking, now thats a wee bit more complicated.
I cant say I know any reformed windsuckers personally. A clue to helping
solve the problem/vise is to figure out why the horse does it. Usually
boredom is the trigger. Either the horse was kept in a stable isolated
from his/her friends and learnt the awful habit. Unfortunately the vice
is learnt early on in most thoroughbreds due to their racing careers and
being stabled up all day except for their early morning runs.
Once the habit is there, I dont think it really matters whether the
horse
is surrounded by his/her friends or not. Its like smokers! (I gave up
btw)
The windsuckers we have in the hosp from time to time get treated to a
bright purple oval shaped horse-ball with handles. Some of them like it,
others think we are plain crazy, thinking they would actually play with
a
ball!
There are collars, some with spikes, others with tennis balls inside, so
when the horse flexes his neck to swallow the air, they get jabbed, or
throttled. Painting the areas the horse crib bites on with something
bitter (aloe)
Then if you have some time on your hands.... I tried something on one of
my patients who was a regular local colic, and a helluva frustrating
crib
biter. We always had to repaint his stable after he left due to all the
teeth marks all over the stable! I gathered a few 50 ml syringes and
filled them with water. I was able to hide behind a wall, from where I
had a perfect view of his snout. Each time he grabbed the stable bars to
suck I blasted him with water. He was clueless as to where the water was
coming from, as it targeted in on his muzzle. I did this for as much
time
I could afford. I think its important that the horse NOT see see you aim
the syringe *giggle* otherwise he/she wont be thinking the 'windsucked
wall' is fighting back! Sadly the horse was discharged before I could
say
this method worked. I certainly saw an improvement in the few days he
was
in the hospital. And sadly the next time he was admitted, he went
straight to theatre with a twisted gut and was put to sleep on the table
Then I have heard of an operation where they remove the muscle
responsible for the horse being able to windsuck. But I dont think vets
like doing this as it is a very bloody and messy operation.
A more conservative method may be clicker training (www.equiclicks.com)
This would no doubt benefit both horse and rider. Their communication
and
understanding would be far improved. Once the horse has learnt the
clicker, there is no end as to what you can train them. Jenku
Dietrichsen
082 924 2563 jdp...@yahoo.com This man gave a demo at the hospital
about
a month ago. Absolutely amasing stuff. I was flabergasted at what he got
the horses to do. Sorry, I lie... he had the owner do it on his
instruction, in the ring with us as audience!
Let me know how it goes :-)
Janet & Tim Costidell
recorded with the use of antacids in crib biters/windsuckers. It is
possibly caused by a kind of indigestion, excess acid production, and many
have been helped by this treatment.
Maryse
advertising clicker training? I know nothing about clicker so I do not
condemn it but sad advertising like this puts me off (bit like the dreaded
Cytek)
Please feel free to tell me that I am wrong.
Maryse
Sr Lynn McHardy
Id would love to know more about it though, but sadly I do not have the time. I
saw a demo on clicker training and it did make an impression on me. One day, Id
like to find out more about it. Probably in my next lifetime!
The whole reason for the original post was to see if anyone had a cure for an
age old problem, namely "windsucking/crib biting" The more options I can supply
my friend with to try cure her horse, the better.
I cant say I know any horse being cured of this vice, and I was hoping someone
here might have.
Francis Burton
Sr Lynn McHardy <lmch...@op.up.ac.za> wrote:
> A clue to helping
>solve the problem/vise is to figure out why the horse does it.
Yup.
> Usually
>boredom is the trigger.
Do horses get bored? I think the word is misleading. Stress
might be a better one. As for underlying cause, I think Janet
Costidell is on the right track - there's good evidence to
suggest excess gut acid is involved in some, if not all,
cases.
However, if boredom or stress is at the root of it, I doubt
that most the measures you described are going to do more than
stop the horse showing outward signs of the internal problem.
You don't think they will =decrease= stress, do you?
Have you considered the possibility that cribbing might
actually be good for the horse (leaving aside teeth wear
and the fact it annoys the hell out of owners)?
As for clicker training, I think this =might= be beneficial
in the short term. Obviously you can stop the horse cribbing
by rewarding other behaviours, and the ambience of positive
reinforcement might reduce stress. But how long would this
last? I don't know. Indeed, the increase in arousal associated
with CT could make the cribbing worse.
In any case, if the root cause is physiological, you want to
address that, not the behaviour.
Francis
Petra Rüttiger
There is a difference between cribbing and windsucking, the cribber has to
have a surface to crib on, the windsucker has learned to get the effect
without having to grab hold of something.
There is considerable evidence that the habit is hereditary, this is why you
often find horses living in as near to perfect conditions as possible still
cribbing. The acid theory is also being widely believed now and should be
looked into.
Without knowing how confirmed the habit is (in a confirmed cribber or
wind-sucker even correcting the causes (if there are any) won't stop it as
it has become ingrained as a behavioural pattern.) - how the horse is kept,
what the history is, any hereditary element etc, it is really hard to make
any really helpful suggestions.
If it's any consolation the theories that it by itself leads to colic and is
copied by other horses which would otherwise not display the habit have been
mostly disproved.
Petra
Sue Milward
news:10512659...@irys.nyx.net
> In article <3EA8D89D...@op.up.ac.za>,
> Sr Lynn McHardy <lmch...@op.up.ac.za> wrote:
> > A clue to helping
> >solve the problem/vise is to figure out why the horse does it.
>
> Yup.
>
> > Usually
> >boredom is the trigger.
>
> Do horses get bored? I think the word is misleading. Stress
> might be a better one.
My old guy (23) has been a cribber/windsucker for as long as I can
remember, and it is definatly stress that set's him off... If
ever something upsets him, or the other ponies start have a bit of a run
around, he is straight over to the nearest post to have a good old suck,
if a post isn't avaliable then he'll stand and 'Urp' on his own.
Strangly enough he never does it when he is in stable, only ever out in
the field.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Claire & Wellington
"Janet & Tim Costidell" <ja...@costidelldotfreeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b8ang9$8p1$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I've never had this problem, but as far as I know, great results have been
> recorded with the use of antacids in crib biters/windsuckers. It is
> possibly caused by a kind of indigestion, excess acid production, and many
> have been helped by this treatment.
I have heard that it helps in a lot of cases, but we had Chieco on that
stuff for 3 months and it gave no difference at all. It is such an ingrained
habit - Chieco is now 13, he has constant companionship - stabled at night
with ad lib hay in winter, out early morning with friend, out 24/7 in
summer. A previous owner tried a crib collar which a) didn't stop him
cribbing and b) caused an allergic reaction on his neck so they had to get
the vet out on emergency and cut the collar off, all the surrounding tissue
had swelled up so much. I believe that he was stabled a lot as a yearling,
so presumably learned the habit through frustration and boredom. He
certainly is neither of those now, but still cribs even at grass.
Once they have the habit, it is more stressful to prevent them from doing it
in my opinion.
Claire & Wellington
Claire & Wellington
"Petra Rüttiger" <p_rut...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:b8b2v9$8amr9$1...@ID-178188.news.dfncis.de...
snip lots of good theory which certainly matches Chieco - still lives in
good conditions but maintains the behaviour pattern.
> If it's any consolation the theories that it by itself leads to colic and
is
> copied by other horses which would otherwise not display the habit have
been
> mostly disproved.
Agree there too. His main problem is that he spends so much time cribbing,
he is hard to keep weight on. He will crib after each mouthful of hard feed
in the stable, and will crib frequently at grass. It does wear his teeth
down too.
Claire & Wellington
Francis Burton
Sue Milward <milwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>My old guy (23) has been a cribber/windsucker for as long as I can
>remember, and it is definatly stress that set's him off... If
>ever something upsets him, or the other ponies start have a bit of a run
>around, he is straight over to the nearest post to have a good old suck,
>if a post isn't avaliable then he'll stand and 'Urp' on his own.
>Strangly enough he never does it when he is in stable, only ever out in
>the field.
That is interesting, because one tends to assume that
stabling is more stressful than turnout - obviously there
are exceptions!
I know a horse that will 'urp' (great word btw!) over the
gate or stable door if someone gives him a polo mint. So
what's the cause of that?? Surely not stress. My guess is
he has associated the taste of sugar and molassed feed
with digestive discomfort and has learned that urping can
alleviate that to some extent.
Francis
Alexis Haines
>he is hard to keep weight on. He will crib after each mouthful of hard feed
>in the stable, and will crib frequently at grass. It does wear his teeth
>down too.
Claire out of interest when you say 'hard feed' do you mean grain/nuts/mixes
etc? If so did you ever try him on a bucket feed that was only forage
and if so did he still crib?
Alexis
Sue Milward
>
> That is interesting, because one tends to assume that
> stabling is more stressful than turnout - obviously there
> are exceptions!
He is a bit of a worrier, and hates his 'family' to be broken up, he
won't eat all the time one of them is out on a hack for example, but at
night time, they are all stabled together in a line, where he can see
all
of them, so maybe that's why he doesn't do while he is in. ( I only
stable mine at night during the winter, the rest of the time they are
out 24/7 ) I'm sure he would if he was left in, or on his own all day,
in
fact I hate to think what state he'd get himself in to, the silly old
bugger
that he is :o)
>
> I know a horse that will 'urp' (great word btw!) over the
> gate or stable door if someone gives him a polo mint. >
Tee hee, we never say a horse windsucks/cribs now, they all just 'Urp'
:o)
Alexis Haines
>Does that help whatever you were thinking?
Dunno really :-)
I was just curious if he'd ever been given say just alfa-A
and he still cribbed on that, aware if he hard keeper
you can't do this for ever.
I guess I was wondering if it was the type of feed 'stressing' him
sort of got to eat it all up NOW :-0 whereas a more 'boring'
feed may not cause this.
Skunk goes nutty for alfalfa pellets but can't be bothered
about alfalfa chaff.
insane ramblings really.
Alexis
YSB
cause as well as effects, but have seen the most effect from a simple
leather 'cribbing collar' and maximized turnout at grass, with
stress-minimized activity. Seems horses do this as a self-comforting
behaviour, much like humans and finger-nail biting or compulsive throat
clearing, although a physiological cause hasn't (as far as I know) been
ruled out. I do know that they can pick up the habit from other horses,
oddly enough!
But have never seen it CURED, sadly...
Yana
--
If a man knows, and knows that he knows, he is wise -- heed him.
If a man knows, and knows not that he knows, he is asleep -- wake him.
If a man knows not, and knows that he knows not, he is a child -- teach him.
If a man knows not, and knows not that he knows not, he is a fool -- avoid
him.
-- Ancient Chinese Proverb.
Janet & Tim Costidell <ja...@costidelldotfreeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b8ang9$8p1$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
Terry von Gease
"Sr Lynn McHardy" <lmch...@op.up.ac.za> wrote in message
news:3EA8EBFA...@op.up.ac.za...
I know of exactly one horse that was cured of windsucking. My dear old dad
had a gelding that lived to windsuck. Dad, having way too much time on his
hands, spent most of a summer tying the horse here and there around the old
homestead. He would then take up a position in hiding from the horse and
watch it. Each and every time in made to windsuck he shot it in the ass
with a BB pistol he had acquired for just that purpose.
Fixed it though. Myself, I'd have just sold it to the Gypsies. There's too
many good horses around to have to put up with one that pisses you off.
--
Terry
"I said I never had much use for one,
I never said I didn't know how to use one."
M. Quigley
CMNewell
>Have heard of antacid-type treatments being given for possible treatments of
>cause as well as effects, but have seen the most effect from a simple
>leather 'cribbing collar' and maximized turnout at grass, with
>stress-minimized activity. Seems horses do this as a self-comforting
>behaviour, much like humans and finger-nail biting or compulsive throat
>clearing, although a physiological cause hasn't (as far as I know) been
>ruled out. I do know that they can pick up the habit from other horses,
>oddly enough!
There's little proof of that. The stereotypy is a response to stress,
and the predisposition to crib in response to stress has a hereditary
component.
The apparent "pick[ing] up the habit" is more likely an artifact due
to the horses all being in the same (presumably stressful)
environment.
Since the behvior results in endorphin release, it is nearly
impossible to extinguish, once established.
"Nature, when she made the Arab, made no mistake, and man has not yet been able to spoil him."
--H. Davenport
Claire & Wellington
<Alexis.haines (Alexis Haines)> wrote in message
news:b8bb7p$t...@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk...
> I guess I was wondering if it was the type of feed 'stressing' him
> sort of got to eat it all up NOW :-0 whereas a more 'boring'
> feed may not cause this.
Surely the 'got to eat it all now' would lower the cribbing? Or by the more
boring i.e. cribs in between, you meant forage?
Claire & Wellington
Julia Green
"CMNewell" <res...@sillyminglewood-arabs.net> wrote in message
There's little proof of that. The stereotypy is a response to stress,
> and the predisposition to crib in response to stress has a hereditary
> component.
>
> The apparent "pick[ing] up the habit" is more likely an artifact due
> to the horses all being in the same (presumably stressful)
> environment.
>
> Since the behvior results in endorphin release, it is nearly
> impossible to extinguish, once established.
>
>
greater risk of colic either. My QH/TB cribs. He wears a miracle collar
but still cribs with it on but just not as hard as without it. He's a great
horse otherwise, so the cribbing isn't a big deal to me. I think people in
general make way too much out of it.
Francis Burton
Julia Green <jdola...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I agree with all this. And now it seems cribbing isn't connected to a
>greater risk of colic either.
Well, it might be - not because cribbing causes colic, but
because cribbing and colic are both caused by something else.
> My QH/TB cribs. He wears a miracle collar
>but still cribs with it on but just not as hard as without it. He's a great
>horse otherwise, so the cribbing isn't a big deal to me. I think people in
>general make way too much out of it.
How do you think the collar helps? Obviously it's not because
you hate to see cribbing, so is it to reduce wear on teeth?
Francis
Francis Burton
Claire & Wellington <cla...@home.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Surely the 'got to eat it all now' would lower the cribbing? Or by the more
>boring i.e. cribs in between, you meant forage?
Not sure about "boring", but eating forage -- especially forage
of mixed type and quality -- is the more natural situation.
Spending a long time nibbling on low calorie stuff may look
boring to us, but is arguably more stimulating overall for a
horse than wolfing down yummy, high-energy grub interspersed
with long periods of oral inactivity.
Francis
Heather Fair
"Julia Green" <jdola...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:2fudneTOqqb...@comcast.com...
> I agree with all this. And now it seems cribbing isn't connected to a
> greater risk of colic either. My QH/TB cribs. He wears a miracle collar
> but still cribs with it on but just not as hard as without it. He's a
great
> horse otherwise, so the cribbing isn't a big deal to me. I think people
in
I've only used the Miracle Collar (MC) once - on a rescue horse that was
with us for a few months and at his guardian's insistance. Previously, the
horse had always worn a collar of some sort and always cribbed, even with
the collar on. He even had sores on his neck from the other collars. :(
For years, he was mostly confined to a stall & paddock with up to 3 other
horses coming and going and very little exercise. When he came to us, he
was put on 24/7 turnout, free fed hay to get his weight up, made other minor
adjustments to his diet, and slapped a brand new MC on his neck. As you
know, it has no metal and it stretches considerably as it conforms to the
horse's neck in the first few weeks. I was amazed at how often we had to
adjust it during the first 4 weeks. After that, we never had to move it and
his sores went away. He *never* cribbed with the MC on - not *ever*. I
think that was a combination of the collar, improved health, and improved
environment, however. Julia, have you adjusted the collar in accordance
with the original directions on the package? If using a used collar, I
wonder if it was stretched in a way by it's previous owner so as not to fit
your particular horse?
Heather Fair
Wasilla, Alaska
hoofinitnorth.com
Gotta Horsey
post is about. He cribs between most bites of grain/beet pulp. He is a serious
cribber. I can stop it with a nutcracker collar but it just stresses him out. I
understand, I am an ex-smoker LOL.
I let them both crib. I do attempt to control the surfaces that are available
for them to crib on. I use soft untreated pine boards and mount the boards in a
conveinent place for the horse to crib. It helps with teeth wear.
My TB, I have no clue if his parents cribbed but my Saddlebred's parents both
cribbed.
I have yet to see the horse that can crib through a nutcracker cribbing strap.
But they have to be tight. Perhaps the nutcracker type would not work on a pony
or draft size equine. I have only used them on many average size horses (14.2-
16.2). My advice is to increase feed and let him crib.
Dana C.
Asthore 7 year old ASB gelding
Juan 15 year old OTTB
http://hometown.aol.com/gottahorsey/index.html
Alexis Haines
news:b8bpqa$e20$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk
No I meant that if the feed is desirable he could get stressed
over the 'others' getting it and hence crib.
Just ramblings
Alexis
Julia Green
> you hate to see cribbing, so is it to reduce wear on teeth?
Because he can't crib as hard on boards, etc. it takes longer for a board to
break <s>. It's a purely practical consideration. If I didn't have to deal
with that, I wouldn't have him wearing a collar at all.
Julia Green
"Heather Fair" <hoofingitnorth@nospam!hotmailnospam!.com> wrote in message
> environment, however. Julia, have you adjusted the collar in accordance
> with the original directions on the package? If using a used collar, I
> wonder if it was stretched in a way by it's previous owner so as not to
fit
> your particular horse?
Arthur, my horse, was 13 when I bought him 5 years ago and was a confirmed
cribber already. He's been through about 4 miracle collars in that time,
all adjusted according to the package instructions. I've never noticed any
difference in the amount or intensity of cribbing related to the newness of
the collar.
Farleyaw
perfect - plenty of turnout, etc....he just was a natural born cribber from the
day he was born. She tried everything and finally had an operation done on
him. LOL - even though he can't crib anymore he's still the mouthiest horse I
ever saw. He plays with everything.
Anne :)
Jan Flora
<t...@gv.net> wrote:
> "Sr Lynn McHardy" <lmch...@op.up.ac.za> wrote in message
> news:3EA8EBFA...@op.up.ac.za...
[...]
>
> Fixed it though. Myself, I'd have just sold it to the Gypsies. There's too
> many good horses around to have to put up with one that pisses you off.
>
> --
> Terry
>
> "I said I never had much use for one,
> I never said I didn't know how to use one."
> M. Quigley
Have you read that book, IIRC it's "Mister, You Got Yourself A Horse"?
It's horsetrader stories collected by WPA writers. Some hilarious
stuff in there -- some of those guys could put the Gypsies to shame : )
Jan
Heather Fair
had a history of stomach ulcers, colic, and other tummy upsets. The vet,
who had treated him from a very early age, recommended that this then
24-year old horse wear a cribbing collar at *all times* to prevent issues of
colic that may be related to cribbing. He was a true windsucker - not just
a chewer.
On another note, I've noticed that my boys are doing more recreational
chewing on all the dead trees during these early spring weeks. Their teeth
have been in good shape and they are not windsucking or ingesting the wood
so the vet is not worried.
Jody
I would like to know too. There have been studies made that do say there is
a direct correlation between sweet feed and cribbing/windsucking. Changing
over to a beet pulp basis feed is indicated by the studies, or changing over
to hay and hay pellets to reduce any sugar in the diet. They still do it!
But_ it seems to be less and less restricting sugar and molasses.
YMMV
Jody
~Circa 1700~ Don Vincenzo Giobbe
"... and, I whispered to the horse trust no man in whose eyes you don't see
yourself reflected as an equal."
Jody
> Dad, having way too much time on his
> hands, spent most of a summer tying the horse here and there around the old
> homestead. He would then take up a position in hiding from the horse and
> watch it. Each and every time in made to windsuck he shot it in the ass
> with a BB pistol he had acquired for just that purpose.
LOL. I used that method! Only it was for pawing and I used a squirt gun.
Little did I know we all hide and shoot at our ponies for such grievous
inconsistencies in them. Here I thought I was nuts! :) Yes, of course I am
still nuts, but gee, Grandpa and I ought to share notes. I guess I'll have
to wait for the here after and look him up, any ideas where he'd hang out in
the afterlife?
BTW. It cured the pawing. I didn't dare bring it up in the pawing thread for
fear of getting the ire raised around here, but if Grandpa did it, I am in
good company. <BRG>
Jody
"President Bush says that he does not need approval from the U.N.
to wage war...and I'm thinking, "Well, hell, he really didn't
need the approval of the American voters to become president
either, did he?" - David Letterman
Heather Fair
"Jody" <ClayRi...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:BACF38C8.9610%ClayRi...@attbi.com...
snip>>> Little did I know we all hide and shoot at our ponies for such
grievous
> inconsistencies in them. Here I thought I was nuts! :) Yes, of course I
am
> BTW. It cured the pawing. I didn't dare bring it up in the pawing thread
for
> fear of getting the ire raised around here, but if Grandpa did it, I am in
> good company. <BRG>
?? I can't see where a squirt gun hurt the horse. I should hope that no one
would jump on you for using a nonthreatening training method that *worked*
without bringing harm to the horse. <shrug>
Fran Bragg
"Heather Fair" <hoofingitnorth@nospam!hotmailnospam!.com> wrote in message
> Apologies for replying to my own post, I forgot to mention that this horse
> had a history of stomach ulcers, colic, and other tummy upsets.
I have long suspected a link between ulcers and sensitive tummies to
cribbing. (Of course I also think it may be hereditary to a certain degree
with 'nervous' temperaments!) My mare is a cribber and I have noticed that
the most intensive cribbing time is while eating. She will eat a few bites,
walk all the way to the end of the paddock to do a few 'pulls' and walk back
to eat a few more bites. She is on a forage diet, (hay, grass, soaked beet
pulp with supplements). When she's in a stall for bad weather, at feeding
time, she starts making an evil face and biting at her flanks or the stall
door. Perhaps stomach acid building up in anticipation of food, aggravating
possible ulcers? She is also a 'timely' cribber. She wears a Miracle
Collar. I thought it was keeping her from cribbing because she didn't even
try when it was on. However, even though I normally remove it when she is
in her own little paddock at feeding time, one of my boarders left it on
when they filled in for me and I returned in time to see her cribbing
merrily away, collar and all, while eating! She doesn't get as good a
'pull' while wearing it and I do think it curtailed it to some degree but
the urge to crib at certain times was overpowering. I noted that while she
was on IM banamine during her last bout of vet diagnosed
virus/injury/spider/snake bite/ who know what happened really, she hardly
cribbed at all. Could her cribbing be caused by gastric pain that was
alleviated by the banamine? Was she just too sore to walk the 50 yards to
her cribbing post? I don't know, but I strongly suspect she may have
ulcers. I've been thinking of having her scoped just to see and perhaps to
use some gastro-guard for a few months to help soothe. I think she has
cribbed for so long now though that she will always crib to some degree
regardless.
Fran
Rydlranch
> BULLSHIT
> I have a horse that has cribbed since he is was a yearling, in stall out
of
> stall, in pasturse , with other horse without other horse, on pellets, on
> grain , on sweet feed, he seill cribbs.
>
> deit nor how he is kept means nothing. He does it because it give him an
> endompine ( hope I spelled that right) rush.
> I put a crib collar on him , painted the rails, lined them with metal,
even
> ran a hot wire. the only time he did not crib is when he had the collar
own.
>
> I finally got a shock collar on him and eveytime he would go to crib
shocked
> the shit out of him.
>
> now you may that was a little extreme but it worked, and it might have
help
> may his life long and more enjoyable. They do it because it releases
naturl
> pain killers to the brain and horse dont have a 12 step progam to make
them
> start.
>
> Oh by the way he is the only one out of 15 horse that do this.
"Sr Lynn McHardy" <lmch...@op.up.ac.za> wrote in message
news:3EA8D89D...@op.up.ac.za...
> >>Morticia wrote:
>
> >> I was just talking about you today :)
>
> >> Friend of mine has a mare that windsucks *badly*... and they've tried
>
> >> just about everything to get her to stop with no luck.
> >>
> >> Any suggestions?
> >>
> >> M.
>
> Sr Lynn McHardy wrote:
>
> Windsucking from which end?
>
> Vulva windsucking needs a caslicks operation (sewing up of the vulva
> lips
> as far as the pelvic brim, leaving a gap ventrally for her to pass
> urine)
>
> Crib biting windsucking, now thats a wee bit more complicated.
>
> I cant say I know any reformed windsuckers personally. A clue to helping
>
> solve the problem/vise is to figure out why the horse does it. Usually
> boredom is the trigger. Either the horse was kept in a stable isolated
> from his/her friends and learnt the awful habit. Unfortunately the vice
> is learnt early on in most thoroughbreds due to their racing careers and
>
> being stabled up all day except for their early morning runs.
> Once the habit is there, I dont think it really matters whether the
> horse
> is surrounded by his/her friends or not. Its like smokers! (I gave up
> btw)
>
> The windsuckers we have in the hosp from time to time get treated to a
> bright purple oval shaped horse-ball with handles. Some of them like it,
>
> others think we are plain crazy, thinking they would actually play with
> a
> ball!
> There are collars, some with spikes, others with tennis balls inside, so
>
> when the horse flexes his neck to swallow the air, they get jabbed, or
> throttled. Painting the areas the horse crib bites on with something
> bitter (aloe)
>
> Then if you have some time on your hands.... I tried something on one of
>
> my patients who was a regular local colic, and a helluva frustrating
> crib
> biter. We always had to repaint his stable after he left due to all the
> teeth marks all over the stable! I gathered a few 50 ml syringes and
> filled them with water. I was able to hide behind a wall, from where I
> had a perfect view of his snout. Each time he grabbed the stable bars to
>
> suck I blasted him with water. He was clueless as to where the water was
>
> coming from, as it targeted in on his muzzle. I did this for as much
> time
> I could afford. I think its important that the horse NOT see see you aim
>
> the syringe *giggle* otherwise he/she wont be thinking the 'windsucked
> wall' is fighting back! Sadly the horse was discharged before I could
> say
> this method worked. I certainly saw an improvement in the few days he
> was
> in the hospital. And sadly the next time he was admitted, he went
> straight to theatre with a twisted gut and was put to sleep on the table
>
> Then I have heard of an operation where they remove the muscle
> responsible for the horse being able to windsuck. But I dont think vets
> like doing this as it is a very bloody and messy operation.
>
> A more conservative method may be clicker training (www.equiclicks.com)
> This would no doubt benefit both horse and rider. Their communication
> and
> understanding would be far improved. Once the horse has learnt the
> clicker, there is no end as to what you can train them. Jenku
> Dietrichsen
> 082 924 2563 jdp...@yahoo.com This man gave a demo at the hospital
> about
> a month ago. Absolutely amasing stuff. I was flabergasted at what he got
>
> the horses to do. Sorry, I lie... he had the owner do it on his
> instruction, in the ring with us as audience!
>
> Let me know how it goes :-)
>
>
>
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Francis Burton
Heather Fair <hoofingitnorth@nospam!hotmailnospam!.com> wrote:
>Apologies for replying to my own post, I forgot to mention that this horse
>had a history of stomach ulcers, colic, and other tummy upsets. The vet,
>who had treated him from a very early age, recommended that this then
>24-year old horse wear a cribbing collar at *all times* to prevent issues of
>colic that may be related to cribbing. He was a true windsucker - not just
>a chewer.
Did it stop him colicing?
Francis
Jim
Did the shock collar cure the cribber? what kind of shock collar are
you using and where can one buy them?
Rydlranch
the places where I saw them. the one we got cost a little over $300. I can
look up a couple of the sites for them if you want.
"Jim" <jbr...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8fdb5bc6.03042...@posting.google.com...
Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/03
Carol Lambe
as others, and the ability to tolerate stress like many other things runs in
families - hence the theory that it's the windsucking that is hereditary
(it's not, its the inability to cope that is, and the windsucking is the
behaviour that results).
I think we greatly underestimate the stress the way we require our horses to
live can put the poor things under. This thing of stabling them individually
makes sense if you're a cavalry officer trying to find extra work to keep
100's of volatile young soldiers occupied, disciplined and exercised, but
for a herd animal it is terrifying. In a herd, horses take turns to be
lookout, and everyone gets some 'down time'. In a 14 sq ft stable, the horse
has to look out for himself 24/7, and knows that it cannot use its only
response to attack ie flight. It feels vulnerable, and often succumbs to
stress. This as in people can result in ulcers, which a recent study showed
were found in over 70% of racehorses, and explains why some horses show an
improvement if fed ant-acids.
They have been getting good results from using mirrors in the stables of
horses which show signs of stress ie weaving etc. It is most likely that
mirrors work because the horse thinks he is no longer alone.
If you want to 'cure' the horse, remove the cause of stress. Throw him out
with friends, and make sure being ridden isn't hard graft which he is likely
to spend all day fretting over. With time, the horse will learn he doesn't
need the stimulation that windsucking provides - it releases endorphins,
natural pain killers, and that's how the horse becomes addicted to the
behaviour and finds it hard to give up: because it has a physiological
reward in the form of a natural 'high'.
hth
Carol
Francis Burton
Carol Lambe <cla...@eircom.net> wrote:
>stress. This as in people can result in ulcers, which a recent study showed
>were found in over 70% of racehorses, and explains why some horses show an
>improvement if fed ant-acids.
Were the ulcers due to stress or to an unnatural feeding
regime? Can non-stress-related digestive imbalance be ruled
out as a cause? I suppose one could argue that grain-rich
feeding is a stressor of sorts.
Francis
Fran Bragg
> yep it work, it is a use of Pavlov theory. Vally Vet and country supply or
> the places where I saw them. the one we got cost a little over $300. I can
> look up a couple of the sites for them if you want.
I've got one of those type, smaller of course, for my dog (no-bark collar).
He knows when it's on and when it's off however. It didn't teach him not to
bark, just not to bark when he was wearing it. Which is OK for what I
wanted! I am curious if the results are the same for a horse. No cribbing
while wearing it but the second it comes off there's a beeline to the
cribbing post! I've learned to live with the cribbing. I think it calms
her. Does remind me of a smoker though. She gets that 'look' in her eye!
She's out 24/7, all forage diet with supplements and an easy keeper. I
figure we all have our little vices. I'll take that one over weaving or
hole digging any day!
I did have a wall-kicker here for a few months that absolutely drove me
crazy at night. I called him Harvey Wall-Banger. I would have put one of
those collars on him in a heartbeat and had fun pushing the button from my
bed at 3:00am! I figured it would be just my luck that one of the other
horses would figure it out and start kicking the wall just to see "Harvey"
get shocked!
Fran
Fran Bragg
"Carol Lambe" <cla...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:Blxqa.10435$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
<snip>
> If you want to 'cure' the horse, remove the cause of stress. Throw him out
> with friends, and make sure being ridden isn't hard graft which he is
likely
> to spend all day fretting over. With time, the horse will learn he doesn't
> need the stimulation that windsucking provides - it releases endorphins,
> natural pain killers, and that's how the horse becomes addicted to the
> behaviour and finds it hard to give up: because it has a physiological
> reward in the form of a natural 'high'.
>
> hth
> Carol
>
>
Hi Carol, I agree with all the causes of how the behavior begins. I also
think the ulcers in the racehorses are due to the irregular feeding habits,
which allows a buildup of excess acid in the stomach. They go from eating
15 lbs of grain, several flakes of alfalfa on a training day, to flat
nothing on a race day until after the race. Our races were at night. We
did feed the breakfast portion but nothing else all day on race day. Of
course feedbuckets rattled at normal times and I'm sure their systems were
'anticipating' a meal, producing gastric juices, but then nothing ever came.
As far as 'curing' goes. I think that once the behavior is learned, it
can't be 'unlearned' only prevented. I've known too many who continue to
crib even after all environmental stresses were relieved. As you said, it's
an addiction. No reason necessary!
Fran
Petra Rüttiger
Carol Lambe wrote:
> Windsucking is a response to stress.
Not always, and not necessarily.
>Some horses tolerate stress not so well
> as others, and the ability to tolerate stress like many other things runs
in
> families - hence the theory that it's the windsucking that is hereditary
> (it's not, its the inability to cope that is, and the windsucking is the
> behaviour that results).
Please would you provide details of the studies which prove this, as it is
not what I have learned when I researched the matter.
> I think we greatly underestimate the stress the way we require our horses
to
> live can put the poor things under.
Right, my gelding was one of the least stressed horses on the planet, he was
living out in company 24 hours, 7 days a week, with plenty of feed and
shelter and 80 acres. He started cribbing as a yearling, and he was NOT
stressed. When I started researching most of his sire's male offspring did
too, and they were not stressed or in a stressful situation either.
> This as in people can result in ulcers, which a recent study showed
> were found in over 70% of racehorses, and explains why some horses show an
> improvement if fed ant-acids.
LOL... If STRESS caused the cribbing rather than an acid inbalance for
example then by definition you would be saying that antiacids remove stress
?
> If you want to 'cure' the horse, remove the cause of stress. Throw him out
> with friends,
mine was.
> With time, the horse will learn he doesn't
> need the stimulation that windsucking provides - it releases endorphins,
> natural pain killers,
natural "happy-pills" more like. They cause a mild high and feeling of
wellbeing.
Not all cribbers and windsuckers are stressed or unable to cope with stress
you know.....
Petra
Rydlranch
"Fran Bragg" <frb...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:kYyqa.12324$Dd4.4...@news.alltel.net...
Jim
> "Janet & Tim Costidell" <ja...@costidelldotfreeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:b8ang9$8p1$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > I've never had this problem, but as far as I know, great results have been
> > recorded with the use of antacids in crib biters/windsuckers. It is
> > possibly caused by a kind of indigestion, excess acid production, and many
> > have been helped by this treatment.
>
> I have heard that it helps in a lot of cases, but we had Chieco on that
> stuff for 3 months and it gave no difference at all. It is such an ingrained
> habit - Chieco is now 13, he has constant companionship - stabled at night
> with ad lib hay in winter, out early morning with friend, out 24/7 in
> summer. A previous owner tried a crib collar which a) didn't stop him
> cribbing and b) caused an allergic reaction on his neck so they had to get
> the vet out on emergency and cut the collar off, all the surrounding tissue
> had swelled up so much. I believe that he was stabled a lot as a yearling,
> so presumably learned the habit through frustration and boredom. He
> certainly is neither of those now, but still cribs even at grass.
>
> Once they have the habit, it is more stressful to prevent them from doing it
> in my opinion.
>
> Claire & Wellington
I have not tried this, but after doing a search on the net,there is a
collar (similar to the dog shocking collar)that one can use to train
horses.....it is called the vicebreaker. Has anyone used this device
to train a cribber not to crib?
David
Heather Fair
> message news:vaj4c41...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Apologies for replying to my own post, I forgot to mention that this
horse
"Fran Bragg" <frb...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:fLlqa.12149$Dd4.4...@news.alltel.net...
snip>>>My mare is a cribber and I have noticed that
> the most intensive cribbing time is while eating. She will eat a few
bites,
> walk all the way to the end of the paddock to do a few 'pulls' and walk
back
> to eat a few more bites.>>>snip>>>Perhaps stomach acid building up in
> anticipation of food, aggravating
> possible ulcers?>>>snip>>>I noted that while she
> was on IM banamine>>>snip>>>Could her cribbing be caused by gastric pain
> that was alleviated by the banamine? Was she just too sore to walk the 50
> yards to her cribbing post? I don't know, but I strongly suspect she may
have
> ulcers. I've been thinking of having her scoped just to see and perhaps
to
> use some gastro-guard for a few months to help soothe. I think she has
> cribbed for so long now though that she will always crib to some degree
> regardless.>>>snip
It's possible she'll continue to crib even if there are ulcers and you
alleviate their pain. However, if I were you, I'd ask the vet about scoping
her for a look into her tummy at least pose these same questions. Something
to this effect was suggested for this old guy when he had a bit of blood
coming out of his nose after running around the pasture for a bit. The vet
opted to watch & wait and we never did have a look inside. Of course, I'm
not sure if she did or didn't earlier in his life, either. Reportedly, he's
doing quite well in his new home and continues to live crib-free if the MC
is on properly at *all* times. :)
It's possible that she associated feeding time with stress - did she ever
have to compete for food with other horses?
Heather Fair
"Francis Burton" <fbu...@nyx10.nyx.net> wrote in message
news:10513554...@irys.nyx.net...
> Did it stop him colicing?
Not sure. He never colicked in my care and I've never had a colic episode
with a horse in my complete care (knock wood). The vet knew his history
from his early days so she was worried that in his condition at the time he
might not recover from even a mild colic. He has reportedly not coliced
even once at his new home. May be nothing more than anecdotal, though. IDK
<shrug>
Heather Fair
> has to look out for himself 24/7, and knows that it cannot use its only
Was that a typo or did you really mean 14 square feet? That's *awfully*
small and I've never even seen a horse stall (except for tie stalls or
milking chutes for cows) smaller than 8' x 8' = 64sf. Typical stalls in
these parts are 10' x 10' = 100sf but mine are 12' x 12' = 144sf. Still, my
boys are on 24/7 turnout and have 24/7 access to the stalls. When we have a
horse confined for whatever reason (typically veterinary reason), we go with
what the vet says and most times that is to remove the wall between 2 12' x
12' stalls so that the horse has about 12' x 24' = 288sf. YMMV.
"Carol Lambe" <cla...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:Blxqa.10435$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
snip>>> If you want to 'cure' the horse, remove the cause of stress.>>>snip
I agree 100% with this for anything that is stress related.
Fran Bragg
"David" <djro...@ozemail.com> wrote in message
news:3EAB43E9...@ozemail.com...
> I don't claim to know much about horses, but wouldn't keeping one in a
stable most of time be
> considered as cruelty? It is like chaining a dog up all the time, or
keeping a bird in a small cage.
...or keeping them tied for days on end to teach tying! I will start on the
addition to the bunny hutch...it's getting crowded in here! Joe, can I
borrow your tools?
Fran
Joe
====================
Me hutcho su hutcho.
And here's a tip for all you budding bunny hutch builders--laying your tied
horse in it's windowless stall on it's side makes a great worktable. A
horse's head is a surprisingly comfortable stool. If your nail is too long
for the wood you're using, it's much easier to pull out of horsehide than
wood. Form your scrap chicken wire into hobbles to discourage pawing.
(From ch 4 of 'The BFH School of Bunny Hutch Construction And Horse Training
Handbook.")
--
JR
Joe
"Heather Fair" <hoofingitnorth@nospam!hotmailnospam!.com> wrote in message
"Carol Lambe" <cla...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:Blxqa.10435$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
snip>>>In a 14 sq ft stable, the horse
> has to look out for himself 24/7, and knows that it cannot use its only
> response to attack ie flight.>>>snip
Was that a typo or did you really mean 14 square feet? That's *awfully*
small and I've never even seen a horse stall (except for tie stalls or
milking chutes for cows) smaller than 8' x 8' = 64sf. Typical stalls in
these parts are 10' x 10' = 100sf but mine are 12' x 12' = 144sf. Still, my
boys are on 24/7 turnout and have 24/7 access to the stalls. When we have a
horse confined for whatever reason (typically veterinary reason), we go with
what the vet says and most times that is to remove the wall between 2 12' x
12' stalls so that the horse has about 12' x 24' = 288sf. YMMV.
==================
I would think she had to mean 14'square--14X14.
14sf would be 2x7'. or 3x<5'.
Maybe the stable is in Tokyo.
--
JR
Petra Rüttiger
Jim wrote:
> I have not tried this, but after doing a search on the net,there is a
> collar (similar to the dog shocking collar)that one can use to train
> horses.....it is called the vicebreaker. Has anyone used this device
> to train a cribber not to crib?
Luckily the use of shock collars is forbidden in parts of Europe.
Petra
Carol Lambe
Carol Lambe
A lot of the ulcers are caused by our modern feeding patterns. It is not
natural for a horse to have an empty stomach for long periods of time. Doing
so has several effects:
1. Nothing in stomach=nothing for stomach acid to eat apart from the stomach
lining itself
2. Cereals etc are digested in the small intestine, and the horse is
essentially set up to get its energy from fibre which is broken down in the
large intestine. Many dieticians now advise high fibre diets which enable
the horse to use his digestive system as it was meant to be used.
Unfortunately, carrying a full load of fibre is thought to slow down race
horses, hence the practice of not feeding before a race. But this can be
argued to be done for the good of the horse also, in that the pressure of a
full gut/ stomach against lungs etc when the body is working hard can cause
its own damage
3. Mentally, not being able to feed themselves can in itself be stressful
for horses. In nature they would spend up to 18 hours browsing, nibbling,
fitting in a quick nap, and take another nibble of something etc. Waiting
for their grub is not something that comes naturally to horses.
Carol Lambe
You're nit picking. Your point about a particular family's prediliction to
crib bite tallies with my comment that some families tolerate things better
than others, not contradicts as you seem to think.
And your comment re ant-acids I am assuming you're making purely to be
funny. Of course treating the symptom and getting a positive response does
not mean you are treating the cause of the symptom.
I'm sorry, I'm not going to spend my Sunday digging out articles and
references for you. I'm afraid I squirrel a lot of stuff, but have no filing
system, and I'm sure you don't need the info anyway.
C
Petra Rüttiger
Carol Lambe <cla...@eircom.net> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
s0Qqa.10559$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
> sq ft = square feet
Yes. But no horse would EVER fit into a 14 square foot stable unless packed
in tins. !4 square feet would be 2 ft wide and 7 foot long for example....
What you means is a 14 x 14 foot stable - that's not 14 square feet though
but 14 x 14 ft or 196 square foot
Petra
Francis Burton
Rydlranch
"Petra Rüttiger" <p_rut...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:b8gacf$9pf9e$1...@ID-178188.news.dfncis.de...
Rydlranch
cridding/windsucking can be to a horse just like drug addiction is to a
human.news:10514475...@irys.nyx.net...
Terry von Gease
It stopped the cribbing. What does helping the horse have to to with
stopping it from cribbing?
I want the animal to cease and desist because it annoys me. I'm not
interested in wasting a lot of time generating an approriate rationalization
that accomodates the horse's well being so that I can feel good about
altering its behavior. And, probably even more important, so that others
will approve.
--
Terry
"I said I never had much use for one,
I never said I didn't know how to use one."
M. Quigley
Petra Rüttiger
Rydlranch wrote:
> Yes I do in this case it most likely saved the horses life,
> cridding/windsucking can be to a horse just like drug addiction is to a
> human.
That is utter nonsense. Cribbing is not life threatening (it is just
incredibly annoying to humans..... ) and the only health problem is the wear
on the teeth.
Whilst I would not want a horse which cribs it is NOT deadly like a drug
addiction in humans, what a ridiculous comparison. The endorphine is not
exactly a drug which can be fatal like Heroin.
You simply made the horse to scared to crib by inflicting electric shocks. I
am not willing to pass a judgment on the moral right to inflict electric
shocks on horses, but you simply removed the symptom of whatever caused the
horse to crib, and the source of your own annoyance (and the sound and sight
of a cribbing horse annoys me too) you did not make the horse any
healthier.
I prefer Terry's honesty in stating that he wants horses to not crib for his
own benefit. Shocking a horse into not doing something it obviously feels a
need to do for whatever reason is not for the Good of the horse, but for the
good of the owner.
I personally find the use of electric shock devices set on "shock" rather
than on "signal tingle" deplorable, and I am extremely grateful that in all
my life I have never needed to resort to that sort of "treatment" in the
training of any animal I have owned or had in my care.
"Saved the horses' life" my foot.... What a justification....
Petra
Blackspruce Ranch
<I want the animal to cease and desist because it annoys me. I'm not
interested in wasting a lot of time generating an approriate rationalization
that accomodates the horse's well being so that I can feel good about
altering its behavior. >
We all alter horses behaviour, by just training them to accept us on their
backs- whether or not you scare them into altering their behaviour , or try
to work with them, is a reflection of talent and experience - you obviously
don't have the talent to work 'with' a horse, so resort to frightening the
horse into altering its behaviour - you are not alone - lots of ignorant
people seem to think you can get results by scaring a horse into
submission - oh yes you can!! - but see the difference between a horse doing
something because it is relaxed and wants to please , and a horse doing
something cos its scared shitless of the trainer. Yes - windsucking is
intensly annoying for a human - but it is detrimental to the health of a
horse and firing air gun pellets at it is NOT going to stop it - I can't
see how this would work. Wind-sucking is a pychological thing, and cannot be
cured by scare tactics - the only thing to 'stop' a windsucker is to make it
physically uncomfortable for the horse to gulp air - ie a collar - if it is
found out that windsucking is due to an excess of acid in the gut, then a
collar could be deemed to be 'cruel' also.
I hope that you are an armchair equestrian, but I fear not...perhaps you
could enlighten us to your methods of starting a colt for example - I am
sure it will involve hobbles, whips, tie downs and the ilk so beloved by our
North American cousins! and God help the poor thing if it 'annoys'
you......hope you don't have kids....do your chores NOW or gran-pa will
shoot you up the arse ;-)
Clare
Roz Holmes
news:K_Sqa.57336$4P1.3...@news2.telusplanet.net
> hope you don't have kids....do your chores NOW or gran-pa will
> shoot you up the arse ;-)
Lol!
Roz.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Bill Kambic
Yes - windsucking is
> intensly annoying for a human - but it is detrimental to the health of a
> horse
Our local vet does not fully agree. IHO the major danger to the horse is
teeth erosion and ingestion of wood fiber. Are the there any studies that
document other adverse equine health effects?
and firing air gun pellets at it is NOT going to stop it - I can't
> see how this would work.
Isn't it a question of conditioning a response? You admit that you can
"scare" a horse into a behavior; why can't you "scare" one out of one? Mind
you, I don't see this as necessarily a Good Thing, but it does work and
anyone who has worked with a wide variety of horses over any length of time
knows it does.
Wind-sucking is a pychological thing, and cannot be
> cured by scare tactics -
You know this because...?
the only thing to 'stop' a windsucker is to make it
> physically uncomfortable for the horse to gulp air - ie a collar -
So physical pain is OK as a training technique?
if it is
> found out that windsucking is due to an excess of acid in the gut, then a
> collar could be deemed to be 'cruel' also.
Unless the physical detriment of windsucking, if any, was worse than the
accumulation of excess acid. if any.
> I hope that you are an armchair equestrian, but I fear not...perhaps you
> could enlighten us to your methods of starting a colt for example - I am
> sure it will involve hobbles, whips, tie downs and the ilk so beloved by
our
> North American cousins! and God help the poor thing if it 'annoys'
> you......hope you don't have kids....do your chores NOW or gran-pa will
> shoot you up the arse ;-)
Your philosophy is showing. There are many ways to start a colt, but that
is not the issue. Since you don't have much to say on the substance, you
engage in ad hominem. Remember that this is a two way street.
Bill Kambic
Blackspruce Ranch
<Are the there any studies that
document other adverse equine health effects?>
dunno - I was just refering to teeth erosion and perhaps colic problems? I
don't think all Psycho problems can be solved with electro therapy -I have
not studied this in great depth so maybe should do before I make any more
comments..I do not need to study any further though to make a judgement on
the effectiveness of a BB gun as a training aid ;-) - this was the scare
tactic method I was refering to .
<Isn't it a question of conditioning a response? You admit that you can
"scare" a horse into a behavior; why can't you "scare" one out of one? >
totally different - you can scare a horse to do something - it will only
work up to a point - same by trying to scare a horse out of something - will
only work up to a point - not CURE it. Eventually that animal will have a
sneaky windsuck or whatever, realise the nasty person with the gun or
electricity had gone in for a cuppa tea - and well..its not been cured has
it - just scared to do that particular behaviour in the company of Humans..
<but it does work and
anyone who has worked with a wide variety of horses over any length of time
knows it does.>
Well I've worked with hunderds of different horses over a period of 30 years
and have never seen scare tactics work efficiently either to produce
positive or negative responses
<So physical pain is OK as a training technique?>
uncomfortable as opposed to PAIN - Just by making a horse go forward you are
making it uncomfortable- using leg aids to tell the horse to move forward is
making the horse 'uncomfortable'- until it submits - using hand/leg aids to
produce an outline in a horse is telling a horse it will be uncomfortable
until it submits and rounds...
<Your philosophy is showing. There are many ways to start a colt, but that
is not the issue. Since you don't have much to say on the substance, you
engage in ad hominem. Remember that this is a two way street.>
LOL! - however many ways they are to start a colt they should never involve
hobbles , whips and tie-downs - as for windsucking - I can offer no advice
that has not already been given - my contribution to the thread was to
comment on the ridiculous comments by Terry vis a vis the BB gun - now
others have entered the discussion with tales of electric shock therapy, hot
wires - I refrain from comment as I have no hands on experience of the
effectiveness - my personal opinion would be not to use these methods ever,
on anything living - including Terry ;-P
Clare
CMNewell
wrote:
>Yes I do in this case it most likely saved the horses life,
>cridding/windsucking can be to a horse just like drug addiction is to a
>human.
Not really. The horse can't get an infection from a dirty needle, and
it's damned hard to OD by cribbing...and I've never seen one resort to
crimes to support the habit.
CMNewell
"Take your flimflam boogeymaan, turn him upside down
Stick his head right up his hat and drive him in the ground
The things he tries to tell you would make the Devil smile
One hand in your pocket and praying all the while"
--R. Hunter
CMNewell
<bla...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>Terry wrote
>
><I want the animal to cease and desist because it annoys me. I'm not
>interested in wasting a lot of time generating an approriate rationalization
>that accomodates the horse's well being so that I can feel good about
>altering its behavior. >
>
>We all alter horses behaviour, by just training them to accept us on their
>backs- whether or not you scare them into altering their behaviour , or try
>to work with them, is a reflection of talent and experience - you obviously
>don't have the talent to work 'with' a horse,
And you don't know Terry.
>so resort to frightening the
>horse into altering its behaviour
It seems to me more like he was annoying the horse into altering its
behavior.
> firing air gun pellets at it is NOT going to stop it - I can't
>see how this would work.
However, it apparently *did* work, in the case cited. Whether or not
you can understand how is irrelevant.
>could enlighten us to your methods of starting a colt for example - I am
>sure it will involve hobbles, whips, tie downs and the ilk so beloved by our
>North American cousins!
My. You ought to be eleigible for the World Cup Grand Prix for jumping
to conclusions, honey.
Bill Kambic
> >Yes I do in this case it most likely saved the horses life,
> >cridding/windsucking can be to a horse just like drug addiction is to a
> >human.
>
> Not really. The horse can't get an infection from a dirty needle, and
> it's damned hard to OD by cribbing...and I've never seen one resort to
> crimes to support the habit.
I consider a horse chewing wood in my barn to damn sure be a criminal
act!!!!!!<g>
Bill Kambic
Claire & Wellington
"Jim" <jbr...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8fdb5bc6.03042...@posting.google.com...
> I have not tried this, but after doing a search on the net,there is a
> collar (similar to the dog shocking collar)that one can use to train
> horses.....it is called the vicebreaker. Has anyone used this device
> to train a cribber not to crib?
I don't mean to be offensive, but that would count as cruel in my book.
Because the cribbing releases endorphins and get like a 'fix' to the horse,
any forced prevention of cribbing must be rather unpleasant - bit like
suddenly stopping drugs or smoking, which humans may try voluntarily, but
hard to explain to a horse.
Claire & Wellington
Claire & Wellington
"Alexis Haines" <alexis...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:55d4bcb324958f10560...@mygate.mailgate.org...
> No I meant that if the feed is desirable he could get stressed
> over the 'others' getting it and hence crib.
Oh fair enough. I watched him eating his haynet yesterday; about 2
mouthfuls then a crib on his chain (he doesn't have a stable door).
Sometimes a quick crib mid-mouthful too.
We did a sponsored ride today, and as soon as we stopped for a break he
tried to crib on the fence. It gets quite tricky if we go anywhere!
Claire & Wellington
Claire & Wellington
"Jody" <ClayRi...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:BACF374F.960E%ClayRi...@attbi.com...
> I would like to know too. There have been studies made that do say there
is
> a direct correlation between sweet feed and cribbing/windsucking. Changing
> over to a beet pulp basis feed is indicated by the studies, or changing
over
> to hay and hay pellets to reduce any sugar in the diet. They still do it!
> But_ it seems to be less and less restricting sugar and molasses.
I wouldn't say he cribbed any more when he is on his winter feed, which
contains sugar beet. See other post about cribbing between mouthfuls of hay
too.
Claire & Wellington
Rydlranch
drugs. That horse is in my care and like a good caregiver I want what is
best for the horse ( when it gets to the point of harming his health it is
time for me to step in). Having horses is like being a parent of a small
child you have to do what is best for the child.
"Claire & Wellington" <cla...@home.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b8h4p2$o4u$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Rydlranch
level and calling me a liar you can kiss my ass, thank
I know what I deal with on a daily basis I also know what my background is .
I reasie horse , I have for sevearl years, I also grew up aroud them and
have seen some train methods being used that I would not, but Lady cribbing
is not just something that makes a bad sound from a horse. Also you need to
check with somebody that does know that endorphine ( which is relesed
natural by the brain is a painkiller) and it can be fatal when it is the
only thing a horse cares about. an addict dies most of the time not from a
hot shot but from the fact that he has wore his body down so much. You may
not belive it but I do know what I am talking about.
Also I did not ask for your blessing or comments so keep them to yourself. I
answered a question sorry if you do not like my answer. I would rather do
something you find distasteful that have to put an animal down
"Petra Rüttiger" <p_rut...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:b8gu3m$9r6rh$1...@ID-178188.news.dfncis.de...
Rydlranch
annoyed me and did not cause harm to the animal in the long run, I would not
care if the horse cribbed. but because of what I have seen and know I belive
it does so I did something about it.
As far as justifing it to you or anyone else I do not need to for two
reasons.
1) If what I do is ok with God and my Wife, I really don't give a Damm what
anyone esle thinks
2) you nor anyone else on this gruop fit into that group (see #1)
and yes I know that it help this one horse because it broke the addicttion.
"Terry von Gease" <t...@gv.net> wrote in message
news:vansu1s...@corp.supernews.com...
CMNewell
wrote:
>I know what I deal with on a daily basis I also know what my background is .
>I reasie horse , I have for sevearl years, I also grew up aroud them and
>have seen some train methods being used that I would not, but Lady cribbing
>is not just something that makes a bad sound from a horse. Also you need to
>check with somebody that does know that endorphine ( which is relesed
>natural by the brain is a painkiller) and it can be fatal when it is the
>only thing a horse cares about. an addict dies most of the time not from a
>hot shot but from the fact that he has wore his body down so much. You may
>not belive it but I do know what I am talking about.
Coulda fooled me--after close to 40 years of serious involvement with
horses, 15 of them as a DVM, I have yet to see or hear of a horse
cribbbing itself to death.
Rydlranch
As to how I start any of our young horse is to gentale them so that they
want to do what we want it takes time and hard work but we come out with
better horses. and I kind of resent that remark about the North American
cousins ( I am form Texas).
We teach our yearling to lead, stand, trailer ( for you people on the other
side of the big pond- floating), to pick up thier feet to be worked on and
strat them on voice commands. At two we start round pen work and longe line
work and lite saddle work.and gound driving.As a 3yr old they are thenput
thru six mths of riding training to learn reaining and leg cues better and
reinforce voice commands they will also be start in what ever feild they
show them have the tempermente for. As 4 to 10 yrs old we compete them with
time off for bredding season and for them to be just horse. After they have
been competed they retire to the brooddmare band or become ranch horses,
when they can no longer fit in to this last, we usllay find some young
person who would like a horse and give them a free life time lease or the
end up retired in the pasure. we do not abuse our horse nor do we sell them
to the meat market.
I speak just for myself here I have use a shock collar on a horse but I have
not shot one with a bb gun. I have used a whip across the butt of a few of
my horse ( much the same as you would spank a child) for things like
deciding to kick or fight with another horse with me in the middle. I do not
belive that an untrained horse nor do I belive I am doing that horse a favor
because I let him get away with conduct that is dangous to me and the horse.
I ask my horse to behave and to respect me I in turn take care of them and
treat them with love.
one of the things that we teach all our horse is the command "STAND" when
they hear this command with thier name the know to stop doing what they are
doning and to stand and remain still. I can yell that command across a feild
and that horse will stop. this one command has saved more than one of my
horse and several poeple. But the point is the horse does this not out of
fear, but with the knowlage that I see what is going on and I am going to
take care of them.
"Blackspruce Ranch" <bla...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:K_Sqa.57336$4P1.3...@news2.telusplanet.net...
Fran Bragg
>
>> Luckily the use of shock collars is forbidden in parts of Europe.
>
> Petra
>
>
quick pop. Not like a fence that keeps on zapping. He only barked twice
before he figured it out. He's gotten more vocal as he gets older and there
were some nights when he would bark all night regardless of what I did.
Moon, other dogs, wind, cars driving by, all would set him going and he
would bark literally for hours! With the collar he knows he isn't supposed
to bark and he lies down and goes to sleep for the entire night. He doesn't
wear it all the time and of course I allow him to bark when it's appropriate
to do so! He's not confused nor does he forget. Collar on = no bark,
collar off= ok to bark.
I don't think it would be effective on a cribber or at least not more so
than the Miracle Collar. When I had the wall banger I would have been
tempted to try it however. He would kick because he didn't like being in.
I could sympathize but he wasn't allowed to kick my walls down or kick the
water bucket off the wall or demolish the feeders! This was not just at
nights which was when it was most annoying because it would cause me to leap
out of bed, throw on my clothes and run in an adrenaline rush to the barn
thinking someone was surely cast because of all the banging and carrying on!
This was every time he came in! Like being tied is an issue for many of
you, I expect a horse to behave in the stall if I need him in there and I
don't particularly care if he likes it at that moment or not! I will try to
find the root cause, cold, hungry, bored or whatever but once I've done what
I could to eliminate those causes, I would resort to a shock collar. I put
it in the same class as electric fence. It doesn't shock unless the horse
is doing something he isn't permitted to do. Quick, effective and
memorable. Biggest drawback I could see is using it in a confined space
doesn't allow the horse to 'escape' like he does when he runs into the
electric fence out in the pasture. I would worry that he would jump back,
hit the opposite wall and panic further and try climbing out the window or
something stupid!
Fran
Fran Bragg
> Not all cribbers and windsuckers are stressed or unable to cope with
stress
> you know.....
>
> Petra
>
>
Petra, have you had yours since birth? Did the mare crib? I am interested
to see a case where the mare was not a cribber and the baby picked it up on
his/her own without an example to follow. All mine have had dams who
cribbed and I assumed they learned the 'how' from them. I think now they
are saying it's not a learned behavior or more horses would pick it up in
mid-life after being around a cribber. I prefer mine not crib in front of
the other horses just in case however! It's easier than trying to justify
it to the boarder with a young horse who is convinced their horse will start
cribbing once they see mine!
Fran
Fran Bragg
"Heather Fair" <hoofingitnorth@nospam!hotmailnospam!.com> wrote in message
news:vamlfc9...@corp.supernews.com...
> It's possible that she associated feeding time with stress - did she ever
> have to compete for food with other horses?
>
> Heather Fair
> Wasilla, Alaska
> hoofinitnorth.com
>
>
She hasn't here but I don't know about her earlier life. I don't expect
she'll ever stop cribbing. After 19 years I'm sure it's in the brain to
stay! At least she knows "when" she is allowed to crib. Even though she is
capable of cribbing with the collar on, she doesn't even attempt it. It was
only when the collar was left on during her 'normal' allowed cribbing time
did she do that. So even that much of it has become habit. It's a
controlled vice which I can live with. I would love to find the root cause
though even though it wouldn't change her behavior.
Fran
John Hasler
> I have yet to see or hear of a horse cribbbing itself to death.
Neither have I, but I once saw one damn near starve herself and her foal.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
Fran Bragg
"Rydlranch" <Rydl...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:qUVqa.17711$WQ4....@news2.central.cox.net...
> Think about it for a sec ok, would you as it was cruel to get a person off
> drugs. That horse is in my care and like a good caregiver I want what is
> best for the horse ( when it gets to the point of harming his health it is
> time for me to step in). Having horses is like being a parent of a small
> child you have to do what is best for the child.
yes, but cribbing isn't harmful to the horse, it's just annoying as hell!
It's not the same as a 'drug' user who is abusing their bodies. About the
only problem I can see, with mine at least, is that at some point her teeth
may become more worn though there isn't even evidence of that at this point
and she's 19! She doesn't chew wood (different vice altogether) so wood
splinters aren't an issue. She's an easy keeper so weight isn't an issue.
I don't see where it does anything except annoy me so I control it when I'm
around and allow her crib at night when I don't have to see and hear it!
Works for me!
In what ways do you think it's harmful?
Fran
Fran Bragg
. Also you need to
> check with somebody that does know that endorphine ( which is relesed
> natural by the brain is a painkiller) and it can be fatal when it is the
> only thing a horse cares about. an addict dies most of the time not from a
> hot shot but from the fact that he has wore his body down so much.
Are you referring to withdrawal symptoms? Or perhaps because the horse
chooses to crib rather than eat it wastes away if you allow it to crib? I'm
a little confused by what you are trying to explain. I've never read any
research on death caused by endorphin overdose but I could be mistaken!
Fran
Claire & Wellington
">
> "Rydlranch" <Rydl...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:qUVqa.17711$WQ4....@news2.central.cox.net...
> > Think about it for a sec ok, would you as it was cruel to get a person
off
> > drugs. >
Fran Bragg" <frb...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:pBXqa.12743$Dd4.4...@news.alltel.net...
> yes, but cribbing isn't harmful to the horse, it's just annoying as hell!
> It's not the same as a 'drug' user who is abusing their bodies.
Agree with Fran. And many of my students (I am an adult educator) are on
drugs, so I do have experience in that. The big difference is that a person
coming off drugs, or being counselled as to their habit, is a person who
has/is making conscious choices. You can explain to them what will happen,
how they will be affected, how it will benefit them. How do you explain to
a horse that you're doing it for their own good? Let alone the fact that you
aren't actually doing it for their benefit, but for yours because you don't
like their cribbing habit. It's not like you're stopping a disobedience,
or something dangerous.
Claire & Wellington
Petra Rüttiger
Fran Bragg wrote:
> Petra, have you had yours since birth? Did the mare crib?
No, the mare did not crib, nor did any of her other offspring except the one
by the same stallion as mine...
> I am interested
> to see a case where the mare was not a cribber and the baby picked it up
on
> his/her own without an example to follow.
Nope. He had NEVER seen a horse crib when he started. And strangely only the
male offspring of that stallion cribbed, the fillies did not.
> I think now they
> are saying it's not a learned behavior
That is current thinking and my experience too.
> or more horses would pick it up in
> mid-life after being around a cribber. I prefer mine not crib in front of
> the other horses just in case however!
That's fair enough ..
> It's easier than trying to justify
> it to the boarder with a young horse who is convinced their horse will
start
> cribbing once they see mine!
Or having your horse blamed because one starts cribbing even though he wold
have done anyway...
WEAVING on the other hand I believe they DO pick up if they are that way
inclined - I literally watched a mare watch another weave, and then start
doing it in time with the other horse. Stopped the second the weaver was
moved and never did it again.
Petra
Terry von Gease
news:K_Sqa.57336$4P1.3...@news2.telusplanet.net...
>
> <I want the animal to cease and desist because it annoys me. I'm not
> interested in wasting a lot of time generating an approriate
rationalization
> that accomodates the horse's well being so that I can feel good about
> altering its behavior. >
>
horses are and how they operate mercifully deleted..
> I hope that you are an armchair equestrian, but I fear not.
I'm not any kind of equestrian, armchair or otherwise. I do admit to
striving to be a horseman but, unlike equestrian, this is a title that must
be given to you by others. An equestrian is someone who attempts to ride,
generally while clad in some really silly clothes. A horseman is someone who
deals with horses.
>..perhaps you
> could enlighten us to your methods of starting a colt for example -
Life is too short to play around with starting colts. We leave that dubious
endeavor to beings that seem to derive some satisfaction in doing so and
merely home that the product isn't too fucked up when it comes into out
hands. We seldom deal with horses if they're not in the bridle. There can be
exceptions but mostly we deal in finished horses..
>I am
> sure it will involve hobbles,
If a horse isn't broke to hobble, it isn't broke. What the hell do they
teach you there in mother England when you're not out pointing at the sun?
> whips,
A whip can be a handy piece of hardware and, much like bits, proper use
depends very much on the operator.
>tie downs
There is a valid reason to use a tie down, it has to do with physics not
head control. It can get you into and out of a turn a half pace faster than
without. Properly installed the device is utterly benign at all other times.
>and the ilk so beloved by our
> North American cousins!
Your ignorance is second only to your arrogance.
>and God help the poor thing if it 'annoys'
> you......
My horses exist at my whim and only to please me. If one develops some
annoying habit or another it will, most likely, get fixed or get sold. One
more time: There's too many good horses to have to put up with one that
pisses you off.
>hope you don't have kids....do your chores NOW or gran-pa will
> shoot you up the arse ;-)
Ass, that's ass not arse. Your speech impediment notwithstanding, your
credentials as a practicing journeyman anthropomorphist are showing.
Heather Fair
snip>>>I don't expect
> she'll ever stop cribbing. After 19 years I'm sure it's in the brain to
I don't know enough about it to say either way but the boy that was here was
24 and had cribbed for *at least* 20 years, according to the vet who had
treated him since he was a baby brought to this state. Maybe there's hope,
maybe not. I'd rather research the cause and alleviate that. And I don't
know if he quit cribbing here because of the MC or because of the lower
stress environment or both. <shrug> I'm just glad he's healthy and content
now (or so I hear). :)
Heather Fair
snip>>>> I personally find the use of electric shock devices set on "shock"
rather
> than on "signal tingle" deplorable, and I am extremely grateful that in
all
> my life I have never needed to resort to that sort of "treatment" in the
What about electric fences? <grin> Petra, in reality I'm just playing
devil's advocate here. In general, I agree with your post about using
electric shock to curb cribbing/windsucking behaviors. Oh yes, my fences
are electric (pulse) and I have been hit by them. Not pleasant but not
painful either.
Heather Fair
"CMNewell" <res...@minglewood-arabs.net> wrote in message
news:t3coavcvke95lsq30...@4ax.com...
snip>>>after close to 40 years of serious involvement with
> horses, 15 of them as a DVM, I have yet to see or hear of a horse
Have you seen links to stomach ulcers or colic from cribbing? It seemed the
vet felt there was a connection between the aforementioned gelding's colic &
stomach ulcers and his cribbing/windsucking. However, I did as was told by
the vet & the owners of the horse (and it did not appear to be cruel or
painful for the horse so I had no reason to argue about using the MC) and
didn't ask a lot of questions.
Heather Fair
"Blackspruce Ranch" <bla...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:K_Sqa.57336$4P1.3...@news2.telusplanet.net...
not...perhaps you
> could enlighten us to your methods of starting a colt for example - I am
> sure it will involve hobbles, whips, tie downs and the ilk so beloved by
our
> North American cousins!>>>snip
And just what is that supposed to mean? I've heard of (haven't traveled
there so can't say I've seen it) similar levels of "training" abound in all
parts of the world blessed with equines. Nothing to do with "North
American".
Rydlranch
addiction was a bad example.
What I am trying to get across that in extreme cases the horse would rather
crib than eat, graze, have sex, etc...
Let me say one last time if it was only the noise it would not bother me. If
my horse only did what you are decribing with your horse I would have done
nothing. But that was not the case with Zandy, can you understand that.
also I never said anything about an endorphin overdose I don't even know if
such a thing could happen.
"Fran Bragg" <frb...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:KNXqa.12744$Dd4.4...@news.alltel.net...
Rydlranch
if you do it will not be because I sold it to you.
btw there is a difference between an ass and an arse
an arse is what you set an an ass is what you are
"Terry von Gease" <t...@gv.net> wrote in message
news:vaonuhr...@corp.supernews.com...
Julia Green
> It's not the same as a 'drug' user who is abusing their bodies. About the
> only problem I can see, with mine at least, is that at some point her
teeth
> may become more worn though there isn't even evidence of that at this
point
> and she's 19! She doesn't chew wood (different vice altogether) so wood
> splinters aren't an issue. She's an easy keeper so weight isn't an issue.
> I don't see where it does anything except annoy me so I control it when
I'm
> around and allow her crib at night when I don't have to see and hear it!
> Works for me!
Yes, same here with my 18 year old cribbing horse. His teeth are fine, his
weight is fine and he doesn't chew wood, so no splinters. The only problem
it causes is putting pressure on boards and other things so that eventually
they come loose.
Blackspruce Ranch
I don't frequent rec equestrian that much - maybe I should !! BTW..I live in
Alberta - for you that means go to Montana then travel north for a very long
time until you reach a foriegn country.
Hey - don't try and teach me the queens english you little colonial ;-) -
its bloody arse not ass - ask any english person - you lot in US bleep out
most of the juicy swear words on your TV then go around calling your arse
your fanny, which is extremely rude in the real English language and would
make anyone from the BBC faint - read and learn ;-P
Clare
Blackspruce Ranch
have found barbaric methods of training used every day - there are good
horsemen in North America - I know this because my QH was broke here and he
is the best trained horse I have ever ridden - there are good and bad
horsemen across the globe, unfortunately - just in the 'red neck 'areas
sopme of these old fashioned methods are proclaimed as 'the best'. What I am
finding now is that people used to training QH are now trying to use the
same methods on Warmbloods - it just does not work - these big 17hh 2 year
olds just take the piss, then the trainers beat them into submission because
they are frightened of them.
Clare
Blackspruce Ranch
head control. It can get you into and out of a turn a half pace faster than
without. Properly installed the device is utterly benign at all other times>
Yes - I use a tie down on one of my QH when I have to chase cattle and cut
one out - this is not the same as tying a horses head down during the
training process .
I also use a whip - not to beat a horse shitless rather than take a few
minutes and use patience instead though - just to chase it up when a trained
horse is being lazy or down right naughty.
<An equestrian is someone who attempts to ride,
generally while clad in some really silly clothes. A horseman is someone who
deals with horses.>
What a load of tripe........an equestrian is someone who rides horses - like
a pugilist is someone who thumps the living daylights outa someone else for
sport - go figure!
Clare
Fran Bragg
> Fran what I am talking about is not withdrawal syptoms and maybe dryg
> addiction was a bad example.
>
> What I am trying to get across that in extreme cases the horse would
rather
> crib than eat, graze, have sex, etc...
>
> Let me say one last time if it was only the noise it would not bother me.
If
> my horse only did what you are decribing with your horse I would have done
> nothing. But that was not the case with Zandy, can you understand that.
>
> also I never said anything about an endorphin overdose I don't even know
if
> such a thing could happen.
I think I understand now. What you are saying is that the horse you care
for was refusing to eat, graze or breed (when appropriate to do so) in order
to crib. That would cause a horse to lose weight, thus lose fitness and
make the horse susceptible to other complications due to lack of proper
nutrition. I can understand that. If changing the environment, reducing
grain and sweet feed, keeping to a regular feeding schedule or using the
miracle collar didn't curb the cribbing enough to allow the horse to
maintain health and weight, I "might" try the shock collar at that point
before trying the surgery. But can you see that "most" cribbers aren't in
danger of wasting away from cribbing and thus allowing them to crib would be
OK in those instances? You have an extreme case in Zandy and you have to do
what is best in that particular situation. In my, and many other's,
situation the only complication is my annoyance at the vice! It doesn't
harm my horse at all as far as I can tell! I do wish however that it could
have been prevented from ever starting, (which I'm not sure is even
possible) so that's why I'm interested in this whole thread!
Fran
Rita
horses the way Terry does.
Rita
"Blackspruce Ranch" <bla...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:rU%qa.30819$8r5.3...@news1.telusplanet.net...
Tom Stovall
>>I want the animal to cease and desist because it annoys me. I'm not
>>interested in wasting a lot of time generating an approriate >>rationalization that accomodates the horse's well being so that I can
>>feel good about altering its behavior...
>We all alter horses behaviour, by just training them to accept us on >their backs -...
Wrong. One alters a horse's behavior by instilling habits deemed
desirable by humans - and that starts on the ground, not on the beast's
back. "Acceptance" implies choice; in reality, the horse has no choice
in the matter.
>whether or not you scare them into altering their behaviour...
Most habits formed of experience are formed on the basis of reward and
punishment.
>or try to work with them...
Nonsense! Either you dominate the horse or the horse dominates you.
And, before you begin the obligatory, nonsensical, "I wanna be a friends
with my horsy" litany of the Sweetness and Light Society, be aware that
if a horse does something at the behest of a human, it has been
dominated by the human. There is no "work with", although such
silliness is sometimes parroted by folks who don't know their fanny from
fantasy about how horses operate.
>is a reflection of talent and experience - you obviously don't have the
>talent to work 'with' a horse, so resort to frightening the horse into
>altering its behaviour...
You appear to have overdosed on Disney. In the real world, successful
trainers are those who are consistently able to make the easiest thing
for the horse to do coincide with what they want get done.
>- you are not alone - lots of ignorant people seem to think you can get
>results by scaring a horse into submission - oh yes you can!! - but see
>the difference between a horse doing something because it is relaxed
>and wants to please , and a horse doing something cos its scared
>shitless of the trainer...
Are you really ignorant enough to believe there's any horse on the
planet that "wants to please?" Such a proposition presumes a horse's
ability to reason in the abstract, an ability never once demonstrated in
any equid - but found quite often in the fantasies of the terminally
anthropomorphic.
>Yes - windsucking is intensly annoying for a human - but it is
>detrimental to the health of a horse...
Feel free to cite any modern veterinary text that supports your
argument.
[deleita]
>I hope that you are an armchair equestrian, but I fear not...perhaps >you could enlighten us to your methods of starting a colt for >example...
Here in the States, some of us of the Western persuasion refer to the
process of instilling habits in horses as "breaking." Breaking (not
"starting") a colt is an ongoing process that involves the formation of
desirable habits and is a matter of countless behavioral transitions
that begin when the foal is sucking. In the Moorish (via Spain)
traditions of the New World, those transitions are usually seamless.
>I am sure it will involve hobbles, whips, tie downs and the ilk so
>beloved by our North American cousins!...
To folks who actually use their horses to accomplish some task in a
timely manner, breaking a horse to hobble is just as important as
breaking a horse to tie, load, shoe, lead, ride, drive, pack, etc.
>and God help the poor thing if it 'annoys' you...
"God" never demonstrated any ability to "help" any horse that annoyed me
by failing to perform to my requirements, such horses were simply
replaced by horses that could meet my requirements.
>...hope you don't have kids....do your chores NOW or gran-pa will shoot
>you up the arse ;-)...
Tsk! Are you really ignorant enough to try to equate children and
chattels?
--
Tom Stovall, CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://www.katyforge.com
Bill Kambic
Well, I don't know about "ass" and "arse" and such. But disingenuity is an
area with which I am familiar (I work part time in a district attorney's
office).
When were you going to enlighten everyone that you were liquidating your
stock, selling your farm, and returning to your place of origin (or nearest,
convienient parallel dimension)? Did you find life on the frontier amongst
us rude Colonials too tough?
Sometime Google is really your friend.
Bill Kambic
P.S. You were the one who just had to go ad hominem.
Nancy DeMarco
>Petra, have you had yours since birth? Did the mare crib? I am interested
>to see a case where the mare was not a cribber and the baby picked it up on
>his/her own without an example to follow. All mine have had dams who
>cribbed and I assumed they learned the 'how' from them. I think now they
>are saying it's not a learned behavior or more horses would pick it up in
>mid-life after being around a cribber. I prefer mine not crib in front of
>the other horses just in case however! It's easier than trying to justify
>it to the boarder with a young horse who is convinced their horse will start
>cribbing once they see mine!
I had a 3-yr-old who started cribbing following a mild choke. He was
on a very restricted diet for a few days, and he started cribbing,
despite all-day turnout with the company of other horses, and no other
cribbers in the group. This was probably 30 years ago, so we didn't
investigate his tummy.
I also had a gelding who started cribbing when I moved him to a new
barn - also no other cribbers in the barn. I put a nutcracker-type
strap on him for about a month, foozled with his turnout, hay and
companions, and that was the end of it. I'm guessing he'd done it
before, but he gave it up quickly.
Nancy DeMarco
Terry von Gease
> Well Terry old boy, I hope to god you never end up with one off my horse
and
> if you do it will not be because I sold it to you.
Bucko, a representative specimen of one of your chunks of animated dog food
coming under my proprietorship has about the same chance of occurring as
does the pope converting to Judaism coincident with a full planetary
alignment.
We presume the functional quality, or lack thereof, of your livestock from
perusing your inarticulate drivel. The principle at work here is the
inescapable fact that anything written says at least as much about the
author as it does the subject. You, like many in these waters, appear to
know little and understand nothing.
> btw there is a difference between an ass and an arse
>
Right, one sports an 'r' which is, no doubt, the product of that
particularly irritating speech impediment affected by actual Englishbeings
and the Kennedy tribe wherein gratuitous 'r's appear willy-nilly in words
that have no 'r'. The other does not.
If one were to point out your status as a functioning asshole, no 'r', would
this have to be explained to you or would you just naturally get it even
with the missing consonant?