Adoption and Fraud case
Leann
an adoption agency for horses and resale of those horses... anyone care to
comment?
http://www.crossedsabers.com/Fraud%20Case.htm
Jim Casey
> http://www.crossedsabers.com/Fraud%20Case.htm
Assuming that all the statements on that site are true, the "adopter"
violated the contract:
The Adopter understands that this agreement is not an agreement of
sale but is an agreement of possession. Accordingly, this agreement
does not transfer title to or ownership interest in the Adopted
Animal to the Adopter.
...
The Adopter understands that Second Wind Adoption Program retains
ownership of the Adopted Animal. Under no circumstances will the
Adopter sell, encumber, assign, dispose of or transfer any interest
in the Adopted Animal, or remove the same from his/her care without
a specific and previous agreement with Second Wind Adoption Program.
That's a civil violation. I don't know what basis they had for
arresting her. Is selling something that you don't own criminal fraud?
I don't know.
It does sound like a scam, particularly with respect to altering documents.
Only the lawyers will be happy in the end.
This case demonstrates, if any further demonstration were needed, that
the only way you can control a horse's treatment is to own it and have
it under your direct supervision.
(One would have to work hard to make a less readable Web site.)
- Jim
Jim Casey
... CUTLASS, SOLD FOR $3500., SHE EVEN HAD THE NERVE TO USE HIS REAL
NAME, SHE DID FALSIFY HIS COGGINS AND SAY HE WAS BORN IN '95 INSTEAD
OF '85 ...
Somebody allegedly paid $3,500 for a 19-year-old horse, thinking it was
9. Vet check, anyone?
I once went with a friend of mine who was looking at a Tennessee Walker.
The guy selling it said he was not the owner, that it was a
consignment sale. He said the horse was "about 9." It had no papers.
The vet said the horse was at least 15 and possibly 20, and furthermore
was lame in response to a flexion test. (Obviously my friend walked away.)
- Jim
Bill Kambic
on. Looks like some body got horses from these folks and then sold them
(maybe without paying for them). If so, somebody needs to go to jail.
But did anybody else note that these "rescue" people are real "control
freaks?" I mean a 29 page application to take "possetion" of an animal
which you will never own but be completely responsible for? What
experienced horseman/woman would ever agree to such a thing?
I figure that the old adage about a fool and his money is in full play,
here.
Bill Kambic
If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.
lizzard woman
news:c1qgj7$1hc6a0$1...@ID-218149.news.uni-berlin.de...
I followed one of the links to this boy...
http://www.crossedsabers.com/ADOPTED%20HORSE%20PAGES/Art.htm
At first I found it interesting because this is the only time I've seen a
horse described as having a mechanical lameness in an ad, the same thing my
horse had albeit from a different type of injury.
With my mare, daily riding was in order and the slight unevenness never got
worse with work nor better with rest.
But the blurb goes on to say that he needs bute while muscling up and to get
through the stiffness.
I guess I don't understand how it can be a mechanical lameness not caused by
pain on the one hand yet be ameliorated by bute on the other. My mare's
unevenness never seemed to change, bute or no, being a true mechanical
lameness. Maybe the difference is she was able to get fit from the daily
riding (after the disastrous first year where I kept resting her and she
kept colicing and tying up) without much muscle soreness and stiffness. She
was extremely fit when I bought her but lost that with all the rest.
Having been through the experience with my mare, despite being the
undisputed queen of lameness paranoia, given my lack interest in showing,
I'd actually consider adopting this horse if a vet could assure me it was a
true mechanical lameness and he could eventually be ridden daily without
bute.
Love,
el mango
"Bullshit." -- T. Stovall
Leann
much of it) this person did 'adopt' many of the horses by paying an adoption
fee. Some of them she didn't pay a fee for so maybe they weren't true
adoptions for those. I would think that once you adopt a horse, you
wouldn't have to have the adoption agency still with their hands in the pot.
If this happened to those that adopted kids, I doubt that anyone would go
that route to obtain them anymore.
Only problem with all of this is that if she lied about who she was and some
of the particulars in the application, it may have made that application
null and void in the first place.
I would think after one pays an adoption fee and the horse passes into your
possession, then that horse is yours to do whatever you wish. This gal
apparently lied about the age of the horses she sold so maybe that is
another thing, but from what I read... I'd want to avoid that
rescue/adoption place.
So for those of you that didn't read through it, don't maximize the
window... it helps so much more to read it that way.
Leann
Emily Brooks
> From what I was reading (for an ungodly amount of time and squinting for
> much of it) this person did 'adopt' many of the horses by paying an
adoption
> fee. Some of them she didn't pay a fee for so maybe they weren't true
> adoptions for those. I would think that once you adopt a horse, you
> wouldn't have to have the adoption agency still with their hands in the
pot.
> If this happened to those that adopted kids, I doubt that anyone would go
> that route to obtain them anymore.
>
snip
> I would think after one pays an adoption fee and the horse passes into
your
> possession, then that horse is yours to do whatever you wish. This gal
> apparently lied about the age of the horses she sold so maybe that is
> another thing, but from what I read... I'd want to avoid that
> rescue/adoption place.
>
snip
> Leann
>
The only adoption group I'm familar with is the dog group my sister
volunteers her time for. Their contract states that the group owns the dog
and the adopter may NOT sell it if/when they no longer want it but must
return it to the group. So that sort of clause seems to be common in the
rescue/adoption industry. And is one of the reasons I'm highly unlikely to
take any animal from such an organization.
Emily
Bill Kambic
> The only adoption group I'm familar with is the dog group my sister
> volunteers her time for. Their contract states that the group owns the dog
> and the adopter may NOT sell it if/when they no longer want it but must
> return it to the group. So that sort of clause seems to be common in the
> rescue/adoption industry. And is one of the reasons I'm highly unlikely to
> take any animal from such an organization.
Good on you for recognizing the inherent foolishness of this type of clause.
Don't these morons have any concept of the liability they incure when they
do this? In most states the OWNER of an animal is repsonsible for any
damage it does. Or any bill incurred in its care. While in one of these
"adoption" contracts they may try and insulate themselves I don't think it
will work. The best they will be able to do is find themselves and joint
and several with the "adoptee."
We went through this when I was a VP of our local humane society. I argued,
vigorously and successfully, that once an animal was placed (no matter how
how style it) the organization should be out of it. If the person taking
the animal engages in abusive behavior that is a completely separte issue
that can be dealt with if, and when, it happens.
Just another reason to see the "rescue" industry as inhabited by folks with
IQs between that of turnip and a crowbar.
HHamp5246
>IQs between that of turnip and a crowbar.
>
>Bill Kambic
>
Is there no end to your generalizing?
Or... is my 139 IQ somewhere between a turnip and a crowbar?
Hunter
http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm
My rig: http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/excella.htm
"You only get to choose what you read, not what I write."
Leann
Here's an excerpt of one of the rantings. This one gives the amounts the
horses are 'worth' and how much, if any, the adoptee in the middle of all
this scuttlebutt paid for these said horses. One question would be... if a
person wants to have a horse bad enough from a rescue like this, can they
pay 'actual' worth amount for a horse and not be subjected to all the rules
of the organization?
************
SWAP Headquarters at Crossed Sabers Stable Celeita A. Kramer, Founder &
Program Executor
Rt 2 Box 24A Jockey Camp Road, West Union, WV 26456
Office: 304-873-3532/1435, Fax: 304-873-3121, Stable: 304-873-3030
e-mail: secondw...@aol.com web site:
http://www.crossedsabers.com/
To: Circuit Court Judge (s)
Greenville County, Greenville, SC
Cherakee County, Blacksburg, SC
Spartanburg County, Spartanburg, SC
Doddridge County, West Union, WV
The following is a list of horses owned by Second Wind Adoption Program and
adopted by Robin Hollingsworth (aka Paula Hall, Paula A. Hall, Robin Bordel,
Robin H. Osborne, Robin Hollingsworth Osborne, Robin Balsinger, Robin
Puckett, Ann Hollingsworth, Ann Balsinger, Jackie Hollingsworth or Jackie
Swaney) of 493 Pierce Road, Landrum, SC.
These horses were donated us by their original owner for the purpose of
finding them a quality life long home. We are attaching the (partial) donor
forms that will show we were given ownership of the horse and also Robin's
adoption application and contracts showing we maintain ownership of the
horses (as per the first page of each adoption contract, the first paragraph
under transfer of the adopted animal), that the adoption contract is only an
agreement of possession, not ownership. Complete forms can be produced at
any time for your review.
We are attaching proof that Robin's frauded our adoption application dated
7/5/03 in 4 critical areas of our application and by doing so has breached
our adoption contract. As per the application and the 18 contracts that she
signed, we are authorized to take the horses for any dishonesty with
respects to the application. We request that you support us with a judgment
to force Ms. Hollingsworth to release all 18 horses and we request that if
she has sold any of our horses or if she can not produce any of our horses,
we request that you place her in custody for selling horses that she does
not own. The list below shows a breakdown of the horses by name and
description, who they were donated by, the estimated or appraised value of
the horse, and the adoption fee that Robin paid to adopt them.
Orphy, 1990 registered TB gelding, bay, 16.1 hh, donated by Mary Jane
Thompson of 30 Crooked Road, Annville, PA with a value of $5000. Robin
adopted Orphy for $280. on 7 November 2003.
Karashell, 1980 registered Arab mare, grey, 14+ hands, donated by Brent
Jacques of 4415 Sanders Lane, Catharpin, VA 20143 with a value of $5000.
Robin adopted Karashell for $500. on 27 October 2003.
Matty, 1987 danish warmblood gelding, 18 hands, bay, was donated by Cheri
Lyon of 2771 Daniels Road in Wilson, NY 14172 with a value of $2000. Robin
paid no adoption fee on Matty.
Kabuki, 1993 registered Pinto mare, black with bald face, 16.1 hh was
donated by Anne Thompson of 9 Rockrose Drive, Newark, DE 19711 with a value
of $5600. Robin adopted Kabuki for $250. on 12 September 2003
Socks, 1992 registered QH gelding, 16 hands, sorrel, big blaze was donated
by Heike Dierkes and Martin Gross of 188 Vincent Street, Chagrin Falls, OH
44022 with a value of $2000. Robin adopted Socks for $250. on 12 September
2003
Art, 1998 dutch/french warmblood gelding, 17.3 hh was donated by Peter Leone
at 404 Taconic Road in Greenwich, CT 06831 with a value of $5000. Robin
adopted Art for $250. on 12 September 2003.
Tully, 1992 warmblood gelding, 16.3 hands, bay was donated by Joan
Duckenfield of 1246 Carlisle Road in North Brunswick, NJ 08902 with a value
of $5000. Robin adopted Tully for $250. on 12 September 2003
Skip, 1992 registered QH gelding, sorrel, 15 hands was donated by Alison
Duvall of 17 Sunshine Drive of Front Royal, VA 22630 with a value of $4000.
Robin adopted Skip for no adoption fee.
Arnie, 1993 registered TB gelding, 16.1 1/2, bay was donated by JoAnn
Stenetzki at 6907 Ruskin Street of Springfield, VA 22150 with a value of
$15,000. Robin adopted Arnie for $200. on 9 August 2003.
Traveller, 1982 TWH x QH cross gelding, chestnut, big blaze, 15.3 hands was
donated by Elaine Mckeehan of 12804 Thatch Road, Harrison, TN 37341 with a
value of $1000. Robin adopted Traveler for $400. on 9 August 2003
Dante, 1989 registered TB gelding, 16.2 hands, chestnut was donated by
Charles and Jean Copper of 630 Cardinal Drive, Harrisburg, PA 17111 with a
value of $2000. Robin adopted Dante for $200. on 22 July 2003
Dreamer, 1996 registered QH gelding, 15.3 hands was donated by Linda
Roadenizer at 587 Bunker Hill Mill Road in Lexington, VA 24450 with a value
of $5000. Robin adopted Dreamer for $200. on 22 July 2003
Andrew, 1988 TB gelding, 16.1 hands, chestnut with blaze was donated by Sara
Kovarovics of PO Box 84, Ashford, CT 06278 with a value of $5000. Robin
adopted Andrew for $200. on 22 July 2003
Cutlass, 1985 registered TB gelding, 15.2 hands, bay was donated by Rosemary
Biancardi at 6903 Ridgeway Drive of Fredericksburg, VA 22407 with a value of
$2000. Robin adopted Cutlass for $200. on 22 July 2003
Samson, 1993 Selle Francais gelding, 17.1 hands, bay was donated by Natalie
Prentice of 3433A S. Bunell St. Milwaukee, WI 53207 for a value of $10,000.
Robin adopted Samson for $2400. on 22 July 2003
Sage, 1999 registered TB gelding, dark bay was donated by Pamela Scoggins at
2401 Bern Creek Loop in Sarasota, FL 34240 with a value of $5000. Robin
adopted Sage for $200. on 22 July 2003
Dial, 2000 registered Appaloosa gelding, 15 hands, donated by Pamela Kay
Armstrong of 100 SE Morningside, Bartlesville, OK 74006 with a value of
$3000. Robin adopted Dial for $200. on 22 July 2003.
Twister, 1997 registered TB gelding, 16.2 hands, bay donated by Holly
Wheeler at 17415 Jug St. Burton, Ohio 44021 with a value of $5000. Robin
adopted Twister for $200. on the 29th of July 2003.
The total appraised or estimated value of the horses in Robin's possession
but owned by the Second Wind Adoption Program is $86,600. and she paid only
$5780. giving her a profit of $80,820. if she were to try to sell these
horses, which we believe to be the case, even though these horses are not
owned by her.
The areas in which Robin lied, frauded and falsified her adoption
application:
1. Page 3 of 29 of the Application, question #6. the question was to
Robin, do you own your home or rent? She put that she owned. As per the
attached Greenville county records 493 and 500 Pierce Road was sold to Gregg
C. Staggs the end of 2002. Her application date is 7/5/03.
2. Page 3 of 29 of the Application, question #13. Has anyone in your
household ever been charged with a crime? She answered no. According to
PACER records she was arrested on 11 counts of fraudulent use of Social
Security Numbers and names to acquire credit cards and loans. She is
currently on house arrest and serving 5 years on probation.
3. Page 4 of 29 of the application, question 1b. #13. Describe your
financial situation and she marked debt free except mortgage/vehicle, never
late on bills, everyone is paid on time and have never lost any possessions
because of non-payment and she did not mark the one about having filed
bankruptcy in the last 10 years. According to PACER records she filed
Chapter 13 on 2/5/2002 bankruptcy and lost their farm because of late and
non-payment of a farm credit loan, which means nothing she marked was
honest.
4. Page 4 of 29 of the application, question 1c. 15 and 16. it asks
how many horses have you ever sold or given away and she put 2. Common
knowledge in South Carolina and North Carolina is that Robin is a horse
trader and has bought and sold hundreds of horses, the very type of person
we want to stay away from with a program like ours. We will show statements
from only 3 individuals that they have first hand knowledge that Robin sold
many more horses than 2 in her lifetime.
Additionally besides these three areas, we ask about health or physical
issues which could restrict the adopters ability to care for the horses,
handle, ride or drive them, she put none but only 2 months after that she
told me she had cancer and was taking Chemo. She has used this Cancer thing
and the Chemo to get out a many responsibilities and trouble in the past but
I have yet to be able to prove that she has cancer but its very strange that
she has a full head of hair taking Chemo because the Amercian Cancer Society
says that 99% of all chemo patients loose all their hair. Even her own best
friend told us "Robin has been using that cancer thing for years".
Additionally the other thing we have not been able to prove is the gross
income for herself and her husband. According to her he works for BMW and
makes 112k a year but we called both the BMW Greer Plant and Munich and he
is not employed with them. Additionally we feel that he has probably left
her but we have no way to prove it but yet she shows her salary with her
farm (Comstock, Inc, which is not licensed and not incorporated) at 54k per
year and his salary as part of her application.
Additionally we feel that she has been committing internet fraud by
pretending to be someone else and using this person to attempt to get more
horses and at a cheaper price and writing to us for months pretending to be
this person (Manfred Bordel in Munich Germany) using the email address of
ZX7...@aol.com. AOL said that if a policeman or an official called them
they can confirm that Robin is actually signed up for that email address and
the months of emails from Mr. Bordel actually came from her home in Landrum,
SC. They would not release that information to us. We have already filed an
FCC/FBI internet fraud claim.
Additionally over the last year Robin has been involved in falsifying vet
records in the sale of horses (a judgment of $30,000. was given to the
plaintiff) and now is being investigated by the Greenville County White
collar crime section for everything from stealing horses to taking horses to
sell for people then having the horse and the money disappear. Because of
these things we feel that Ms. Hollingsworth is either crazy or is a career
criminal and should be locked up for her safety and the safety of others and
that she never be allowed to have horses in her possession again because
every program in the US that is like ours will be a target for Ms.
Hollingsworth and her underhanded dealings of buying cheap and selling high
even if it is illegally.
As a final note, on page 13 of 29, question # 15 is an honesty statement of
understanding. It states that she promises that this application is true and
factual and that she understands that any false statements can result in
Immediate removal of all the adoption horses from her facility and can also
result in legal action against the adopter by the Second Wind Adoption
Program.. that she understands that if there are in questions or
discrepancies in her application that we may decide to do formal background
checks and includes credit, work, residential and police checks and she
agrees to this. She marked that yes. And signed that page below on 7/12/03
Because this program depends so heavily on the honesty of its adopters to
place their horses into quality homes, because we track and follow the horse
for life to make sure the horse is always safe and In the best home and
because we never release the ownership of the horse we feel that Ms.
Hollingsworth can not under any circumstances be allowed to keep any of our
horses and we feel strongly that if she can not produce them that she be
incarcerated until she can.
We pled with each of you to use your power to seize all of our horses
immediately before she has a chance to sell them all and make it so people
and horses will be safe from this woman from now on. I can be reached at
your convenience at the above listed phone numbers or email if you would
desire to see all the original documentation regarding all these horses or
to address questions (available are all 18 adoption contracts as well). My
apologies to the court for coming to you without legal representation.
Programs like ours are usually on a very tight budget of which all funds go
to helping the horses and caring for them. I hope you will understand our
lack of knowledge in the processes and understand that we are just trying to
protect the horses in our program and keep them safe for the rest of their
lives.
Respectfully,
Celeita A. Kramer
Owner, Crossed Sabers Stable
Executor, Second Wind Adoption Program
Bill Kambic
> Is there no end to your generalizing?
No.
> Or... is my 139 IQ somewhere between a turnip and a crowbar?
Well, if there can be smart bombs...<g>
J. Z. M.
> Another thing. Quoting the Web site:
>
> ... CUTLASS, SOLD FOR $3500., SHE EVEN HAD THE NERVE TO USE HIS REAL
> NAME, SHE DID FALSIFY HIS COGGINS AND SAY HE WAS BORN IN '95 INSTEAD
> OF '85 ...
>
> Somebody allegedly paid $3,500 for a 19-year-old horse, thinking it was
> 9. Vet check, anyone?
IMHO If you are not educated enough to tell the difference between a 9yr.
old mouth and a 19yr. ya' don'need to get stuck with the horse. That'll
teach a good lesson. Though, in the right price bracket, $3500 is not
exactly a fortune for some 19 year old horses. :)
Jody
Terry von Gease
"HHamp5246" <hham...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040228173713...@mb-m28.aol.com...
> >Just another reason to see the "rescue" industry as inhabited by folks
with
> >IQs between that of turnip and a crowbar.
> >
> >Bill Kambic
> >
>
> Is there no end to your generalizing?
>
> Or... is my 139 IQ somewhere between a turnip and a crowbar?
Probably higher than your average crowbar but somewhat less than the stains
in my shorts.
--
Terry
"I said I never had much use for one,
I never said I didn't know how to use one."
M. Quigley
Jim Casey
> $3500 is not exactly a fortune for some 19 year old horses. :)
My idiosyncratic opinion is that the only reasons to pay more than $1 a
pound for a horse are that it can waltz through show classes and fetch a
blue ribbon, jump over minivans, run a mile in 2 minutes, corner a cow
while you roll a cigarette, has the potential to do one of those things,
or throws colts that can.*
We don't know what this hapless buyer thought he was getting, but the
horse was capable of none of the above.
*The nitpickers will no doubt think of other worthwhile capabilities.
Consider this the short list.
- Jim
J. Z. M.
> My idiosyncratic opinion is that the only reasons to pay more than $1 a
> pound for a horse are that it can waltz through show classes and fetch a
> blue ribbon, jump over minivans, run a mile in 2 minutes, corner a cow
> while you roll a cigarette, has the potential to do one of those things,
> or throws colts that can.*
LOL...Remind me never to try and sell you a horse! <BG>
Though, if'n you could find a critter who could do all of the above with
aplomb I'm a bettin' you might pay more than meat prices.
Com'n from a gal who has sold a few to people who did indeed pay far more
than $3500 for her critters and they done none of the stuff you stated.
Love the thought of getting a prize for free though, it's the American
dream.
Jody
Dana Compton
> I would think that once you adopt a horse, you
>wouldn't have to have the adoption agency still with their hands in the pot.
>
>I would think after one pays an adoption fee and the horse passes into your
>possession, then that horse is yours to do whatever you wish.
No. That would be a sale. If the adopter can no longer care for the horse the
horse is returned to the agency.
Bill Kambic
By law in every state I am aware of the word "adoption" applies only to
humans. In dealing with animals you are aquiring a chattel, or item of
personal property. As I understand the program here, this is a lease of a
horse. It's dressed up in all kinds of touchy-feely words, but it's still a
lease.
So if there's any "fraud" maybe it rests with the "agency" from the get-go.
That being said, if you lease a horse and sell it as your own you are guilty
of theft (different states might have different statutory definitions).
Maybe the "good news" is that this represents a new opportunity for vets,
farriers, liverymen, etc. In the past if any of these got "stuck" on a bill
they were limited to small claims court or, if they were lucky, a lien on
the horse (which in most rescue cases would not be much more than low meat
value). Now, if the "adoption agency" is the owner then they might be
responsible for bill. I can think of other parties that also might find
this arrangement interesting.
This sort of thing does brings up all sorts of interesting questions!<g>
Cricket
"Jim Casey" <sea...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:Q%c0c.17689$OH4....@fe2.texas.rr.com...
My short-form for the above is "It had better sing dance and write home to
mamma!"
>
Cricket
"lizzard woman" <kimosa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ro70c.639908$X%5.462307@pd7tw2no...
If I had to take a stab, I'd say that the mechancial lameness throws the
horse off sufficiently that it sores up elsewhere/in the muscle until it
gets back in shape. I have one customer with a mare like that, though
they've kept her conditioned since they got her, so it hasn't been a
problem, other than the busybodies that are sure they shouldn't ever use her
because she moves unevenly.
Cricket
>
> Here's an excerpt of one of the rantings. This one gives the amounts the
> horses are 'worth' and how much, if any, the adoptee in the middle of all
> this scuttlebutt paid for these said horses. One question would be... if
a
> person wants to have a horse bad enough from a rescue like this, can they
> pay 'actual' worth amount for a horse and not be subjected to all the
rules
> of the organization?
My take is that if it needed to be rescued, *at that point in time* it had
no "worth" beyond meat price. That's a generalization leaving out a few
oddball possibilities (very valuable horse who's owners and all their heirs
dropped dead on the same day comes to mind), but for the most part, saleable
horses get sold. That that same horse, with a year, a month, or even a few
days of work may be worth $XXX doesn't mean much - at that moment they are
worth whatever they're worth by the pound.
Jennifer Meyer-Mahoney
property rather than purchasing it. The adopter did not actually own the
animals so she had no right to sell them. Selling something you do not own
is a form of theft. Acquiring something you do not own from the rightful
owner under false pretenses in order to sell it is fraud. Using the US Mail
to do so is mail fraud.
A couple of big questions leap out at me. First why would you let one
person, who claimed to have cancer, adopt 26 horses and ponies if you are so
concerned about placing these animals in a good home? Second if you make
people fill out a 29 page questionaire why not check the references and do a
background check so you would know up front that the person is a horse
dealer who has been convicted of fraud and declared bankruptcy before you
send the person a horse? They were able to get all this info after they got
suspicious so clearly they could have gotten it before hand.
The adopter in question is a con artist who is a little too greedy and too
flamboyant for her own good. She was actually arrested on an unrelated
charge and will likely be charged with violating her parole/probation on
prior convictions as well. The horses she was keeping at Hidden Springs Farm
were returned to the adoption agency today when it produced legal proof of
ownership of the animals. Several of the animals had already been sold or
traded to another horse dealer. Hidden Springs has provided whatever
information it had regarding those sales to the adoption agency and the
criminal investigator.
Unfortunately the owner of Hidden Springs got conned by this woman too. She
rented half the barn and a couple of pastures as well and was paying her
bill on each horse as it sold. Not only is Hidden Springs out quite a bit of
money for boarding all these animals, the farm's name has been plastered all
over multiple bulletin boards and groups in addition to the adoption
agency's website as participating in the fraud. With all the adverse
publicity the number of bookings to the stallions they stand will likely
drop as people would be understandably reluctant to ship their mares into a
farm that has been so publicly accused of fraud. My friend who starts my
young horses (and currently has 2 of mine) is the resident trainer at Hidden
Springs. She is very concerned that her reputation may suffer because of her
affiliation with the farm even though her name has not been mentioned in any
of the adverse publicity. I am somewhat concerned that potential buyers of
my young horses may choose not to look at them because the farm has been
accused of theft and fraud.
So there are lots of lessons in here for everyone, farm owners, trainers,
breeders, owners, those who would place animals for adoption, those who
adopt them, and adoption agencies. It all boils down to being careful about
how you do business and with whom. Or as they say in Spanish "Dime con quien
andas y te dire quien eres."
Jennifer
Jim Casey
> Com'n from a gal who has sold a few to people who did indeed pay far more
> than $3500 for her critters and they done none of the stuff you stated.
Good for you. Horses are so cheap here and now that I don't understand
why anyone would breed. If all you want is a sound horse that will
stand to be mounted and not try to kill you, you can buy entire herds of
them for under $1,000 (each).
Obviously a horse that's over 2 has eaten more than $1,000 worth of feed
and probably racked up substantial vet and farrier fees. It's a worse
investment than a time-share condo.
I went to an auction where a weanling quarter-horse colt was offered for
an opening bid of $1,000 -- a good-looking palomino. No bid. $950,
$900, ... someone finally bid $500. The seller jumped up and yelled,
"The stud fee was more than that!"
- Jim
Una
>I guess I don't understand how it can be a mechanical lameness not caused by
>pain on the one hand yet be ameliorated by bute on the other.
A mechanical lameness could cause pain or inflamation with work,
especially when the animal is not fit. In turn, inflamation is a
major source of pain.
FWIW, bute (phenylbutazone) is primarily an anti-inflamatory, not
an analgesic. It used to be prescribed to people, but its risk to
benefit ratio was not good compared to other drugs (particularly
ibuprofen). It was too poor an analgesic. So I don't worry much
about "masking pain" with bute; that's not how it works.
Una
Eileen Morgan
"Jim Casey" <sea...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:q6m0c.18124$OH4....@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Good for you. Horses are so cheap here and now that I don't understand
> why anyone would breed. If all you want is a sound horse that will
> stand to be mounted and not try to kill you, you can buy entire herds of
> them for under $1,000 (each).
I greatly enjoy the whole speck on the ultrasound to under saddle process,
myself. I like having a youngster kicking around the pasture, being
entertaining. Of course, I'm also going for a sport horse to compete as
well, and I find making my own more fun than remaking someone else's problem
(my two choices due to $$$). Even if I were not planning to compete, I like
bringing along a foal well enough that I'd be interested in putting my own
on the ground rather than shopping.
--
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
http://www.enter.net/~edlehman
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.585 / Virus Database: 370 - Release Date: 2/11/2004
Catja Pafort
> We are attaching proof that Robin's frauded our adoption application dated
> 7/5/03 in 4 critical areas of our application and by doing so has breached
> our adoption contract. As per the application and the 18 contracts that she
> signed,
And no one at the adoption agency a) checked up on the horses or b)
wondered what one person was doing with _eighteen_ horses?
I wouldn't adopt. I'd consider an OTT TB for myself, but I'd take my
chance, buy it, and then stick to my responsibilities for it.
The idea that someone else could pull him out from under me scares me;
as does the idea that I might not be able to treat it, put it down, or
pass it to someone else should I so desire and judge it best for the
horse.
Catja
and the Count
JC Dill
wrote:
>That's a civil violation. I don't know what basis they had for
>arresting her. Is selling something that you don't own criminal fraud?
On the complaint info page, I read that she was on probation for
social security fraud, and that she provided an inaccurate SSN to the
rescue agency. If so, then she might have been in violation of her
probation agreement, and arrested on that charge.
jc
Riding is a partnership.
The horse lends you his strength, speed, and grace,
which are greater than yours.
For your part, you give him your guidance, intelligence, and
understanding, which are greater than his.
Together, you can achieve a richness that alone neither can.
~ Lucy Rees
Jim Casey
> "Jim Casey" <sea...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:q6m0c.18124$OH4....@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> I greatly enjoy the whole speck on the ultrasound to under saddle process,
> myself. I like having a youngster kicking around the pasture, being
> entertaining. ...
Again, good for you. I could feast my eyes on young horses all day, if
I didn't have obligations. It just doesn't seem like the path to wealth
in this economy.
- Jim
volunteer
She LIED on the application and the references she gave agreed that she would be a good adopter. She said she had only sold 2 horses in her life!! had an extended family that rode, had 50 acres of pasture and LOTS of stalls. She adopted a few and then more. She lied and said they were doing fine and even talked about becoming a satelite farm for SWAP. This adoption program does check references but when you do several hundred adoptions a year, many with small fees there is no way to physically check out where the horses are going. This adopter sent pictures of a lovely farm, a reasonable check didn't show up anything to be suspicious about. References are called and asked questions. You can tell from the application, you must fit the profile or you don't get horses.
Many adopters are delighted to have the wonderful horses they have received from SWAP. Many of them would never be in a position to BUY the horses they have adopted. Others have huge hearts and are caring for one of God's more unfortunate creatures. The rewards for this are many but probably not appreciated by everyone. Sure there are limitations to adopting. People donate great horses to this program because it is strict, they test horse knowledge and check out their adopters (Vet, farrier and a couple of personal references including horse related) and they follow-up. Anal? maybe, but what i would want as a donor! Horses are adopted on a NO SALE contract.There are a number of places that say NO SALE and you must return the horse at your expense. Not for everyone but many do adopt! Con artists exist in every faction of society - sadly. Did it sound too good to be true? Sure, after the fact it's easy to pick it apart, when the horses were adopted one by one it was harder to figure out. There are other adopters who have multiple horses so that is not all that unusual.
There are a lot of issues in this discussion that are interesting and I will forward them to SWAP. They are in the process of changing adoption rules/contracts. Unfortunately "95% of people don't need laws but there are not enough laws to protect us from the other 5%" Lately, I think the %s are no longer 95/5!!!
Terry von Gease
news:7b8c259ea8b9f541...@localhost.talkaboutpets.com...
...bilge deleted...
> Many adopters are delighted to have the wonderful horses they have
received from SWAP. Many of them would never be in a position to BUY the
horses they have adopted. Others have huge hearts and are caring for one of
God's more unfortunate creatures. The rewards for this are many but probably
not appreciated by everyone. Sure there are limitations to adopting. People
donate great horses to this program because it is strict, they test horse
knowledge and check out their adopters (Vet, farrier and a couple of
personal references including horse related) and they follow-up. Anal?
maybe, but what i would want as a donor! Horses are adopted on a NO SALE
contract.There are a number of places that say NO SALE and you must return
the horse at your expense. Not for everyone but many do adopt! Con artists
exist in every faction of society - sadly. Did it sound too good to be true?
Sure, after the fact it's easy to pick it apart, when the horses were
adopted one by one it was harder to figure out. There are other adopters who
have multiple horses so that is not all that unusual.
We question your glib use of the term 'adopt'. Children, human children, are
adopted. Horses are chattel property which is owned and are bought and sold.
You either own it or you do not. If you do then it's yours to keep, sell, or
bury out in the south forty at your pleasure. If it's not yours then why are
you feeding it?
You seem to be questing after the holy grail of yuppiescum everywhere,
certainty. You seriously expect others to alter their behavior as well as
the small portion of the external reality touched by your hobby to
accommodate your prejudices.
To snatch and doctor a phrase from Shel Silverstein, "There is no Santa
Claus, there is no Easter Bunny, there is no certainty; maybe someday you
can go to Detroit."
Sheryl Reasonover
>To snatch and doctor a phrase from Shel Silverstein, "There is no Santa
>Claus, there is no Easter Bunny, there is no certainty; maybe someday you
>can go to Detroit.
LOL, his is the only autograph I ever got.
Bill Kambic
You adopt children; you buy or lease chattels.
The woman in question leased these animals. She is alledged to have lied on
the lease application. This would probably be some species of fraud. She
is then alledged to have sold horses she leased. If she did so she is
guilty of some form of theft 'cause she sold that which she did not own. In
either event she needs to spend some time "custodia legis" to comtemplate
the error of her ways.
volunteer
And NO, if you don't qualify, you don't get the horse regardless of the $$s.! If you lie on the application, you also agree to forfeit the horse(s). But most significant - you can not sell these horses.
volunteer
I didn't find the part that excluded horses. Regardless, a NO SALE contract is signed and if you care to call it a lease, I don't care - there is no right to sell - which she did and that is illegal and immoral in my book.
I pay to educate kids that are not mine, feed, clothe and provide medical care for folks who are not mine nor related to mine. I think they call it taxes and I don't even have a choice. I chose to help thru charities those less fortunate than I, they are 'not mine'. I hope I never become so selfish that I only consider taking care of 'mine'.
Terry von Gease
> Adopt - "to take by choice into a relationship; esp. to take voluntarily
( a child of other parents) as one's own"
>
> I didn't find the part that excluded horses. Regardless, a NO SALE
contract is signed and if you care to call it a lease, I don't care - there
is no right to sell - which she did and that is illegal and immoral in my
book.
Ignoring for the nonce the absurdity of using a dictionary to define your
reality for you, one does not adopt chattel property. Even if it's free. One
does not adopt a load of hay, a yard of gravel, or a farm animal. These
things are owned.
You seem to be one of those who lurches through life as if there existed
some third category of existence below that of citizen and above that of a
camshaft. There is not. There are people. There is property. In between
there ain't shit.
> I pay to educate kids that are not mine, feed, clothe and provide medical
care for folks who are not mine nor related to mine. I think they call it
taxes and I don't even have a choice. I chose to help thru charities those
less fortunate than I, they are 'not mine'. I hope I never become so selfish
that I only consider taking care of 'mine'.
What does any of that have to do with animal husbandry? It isn't much of a
stretch to view your curious notions as but more evidence that you have a
hard time telling the difference between people and farm animals. You appear
seriously unhinged, seek help
C. Little
> <rant deleted>
>
> You adopt children; you buy or lease chattels.
>
> The woman in question leased these animals. She is alledged to have lied on
> the lease application. This would probably be some species of fraud. She
> is then alledged to have sold horses she leased. If she did so she is
> guilty of some form of theft 'cause she sold that which she did not own. In
> either event she needs to spend some time "custodia legis" to comtemplate
> the error of her ways.
She obviously did an illegal thing as regards the original contract
with the rescue organisation, but I have more pity for the people who
bought horses (for probably way too much money) on falsified vet
checks for their kids. They're the ones who were seriously screwed
over here.
I personally have a problem with the whole "adoption" process, I
either buy or I lease, and I don't have the money to feed cripples.
There are too many healthy horses out there to waste resources on
consumers... unless you have a personal attachment, of course. (Ya,
when it comes down to it I'm a softy...)
Cheryl
volunteer
Thank you for your concern about my well-being. I am sorry that your realty does not include the possibility of considering your horses/animals as more than chattel. Forgive me if I do not ADOPT your attitudes.
Terry von Gease
> Did you mean nuance? Chattel - an article of moveable personal property;
a slave.
No bucko, we said 'nonce' and we meant 'nonce'. Perhaps that dictionary you
seem so fond of might explain the usage of that particular word to you. Get
some member of your tribe who isn't busy pointing at the sun to read it to
you.
Moreover we are well aware of what a chattel is. You, however, do not seem
to grasp the concept.
We are beginning to understand why a specimen such as yourself has a
fondness for dictionaries. Carrying on a conversation with you that goes any
farther than pointing, snorts, and grunts would be impossible without your
having some convenient reference to hand. Perhaps one day you'll learn how
to actually read what's in yours and understand what all of the pictures are
for. Those that you haven't already colored, we suppose.
> Thank you for your concern about my well-being. I am sorry that your
realty does not include the possibility of considering your horses/animals
as more than chattel.
That's because that's what they are. We calls 'em the way we sees 'em.
>Forgive me if I do not ADOPT your attitudes.
You then would be one of the legion of practicing fools that figure that
animals exist in some special zone above mere property. While it might make
you all warm and fuzzy to go about thinking, or whatever it is you do, and
carrying on as if this were the case, it is not.
If you cleave to this nonsense we have no choice but to proclaim you as Yet
Another idiot and put you on the short list of beings which should be driven
into the sea just as soon as we find time to get around to it.
Write when you learn how.
Phil McCrackin
Grab a hankie and wipe off your chin....time-out from your conniption
fit du jour.
Regarding the use of the term adoption for these equine transactions,
that you find so galling:
Language changes over time. Get over it. People who can handle this
fact understand that usage of the term "adoption" when applied to an
animal exchange is merely shorthand for an arrangement which might
take a paragraph, (or more), to describe.
People who participate at either end of these transactions can be
total flakes or among the more experienced. Pretty much like anything
else....
You don't have to adopt. I don't think this type of thing is forced
upon anyone.
Bloviate on, dude.
Phil
Bill Kambic
> Language changes over time.
True enough.
Get over it. People who can handle this
> fact understand that usage of the term "adoption" when applied to an
> animal exchange is merely shorthand for an arrangement which might
> take a paragraph, (or more), to describe.
If what you mean to say takes a paragraph, then by God write a paragraph.
"Shorthand" in this instance seems to be synonymous with "intellectually
lazy."
The term "adoption" has a very specific and very important meaning. To
permit its co-option by a bunch of folks who want to sell the latest version
of Dr. Feelgood's Pyschic Nostrum is a Very Bad Thing.
And, in the interests of full disclosure, my wife and I adopted two
children. I will not quietly allow my children to lumped into the same
category as other people's four footed castoffs.
> People who participate at either end of these transactions can be
> total flakes or among the more experienced. Pretty much like anything
> else....
Well, not really. Did you ever do any time on the board of directors of a
humane society? If not then you don't know the meaning of the world "flake"
when applied to "animal lovers."
> You don't have to adopt. I don't think this type of thing is forced
> upon anyone.
Nope. But neither do I have to quietly submit to the further bastardization
of the Queen's English.
Tamara Howard
With all the adverse
> publicity the number of bookings to the stallions they stand will likely
> drop as people would be understandably reluctant to ship their mares into a
> farm that has been so publicly accused of fraud. My friend who starts my
> young horses (and currently has 2 of mine) is the resident trainer at Hidden
> Springs. She is very concerned that her reputation may suffer because of her
> affiliation with the farm even though her name has not been mentioned in any
> of the adverse publicity. I am somewhat concerned that potential buyers of
> my young horses may choose not to look at them because the farm has been
> accused of theft and fraud.
ahhh yes the beauty of ninny headed rescue types <g>
ruin and slander whomever in attempt to keep all the "free" horses to
themselves...Hidden Springs should put out a public statement and
state their predicament in the whole situation
on another note a recent ninny head letter circulated on the
yahoo groups concerning some vet in TX who "supposedly" killed a 10
year old "$30,000" arab mare....they were whining now four years
later that the malpractice insurance paid only $2500...
slanderous,self absorbed liars like that make me ill
and I told them so...while the 25 other ninny headed groups it went to
I'm sure FWD to to every person in the world I only hope that the
intelligent folks saw it for what it was...
Tamara in TN
Sheryl Reasonover
>"volunteer"
> I am sorry that your
>realty does not include the possibility of considering your horses/animals
>as more than chattel.
>
>That's because that's what they are. We calls 'em the way we sees 'em.
I always thought realty was land not chattel property.
law
A wee bit of a warning -- usually, the first to use a typo as a slam
makes lots of typos. You lucked out this time.
--
LisaW
"we recognize that there is no good greater than our own."
- Terry Von Gease, 2-25-04
Wando
"Phil McCrackin" <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:103402ba.04030...@posting.google.com...
Not just language changes over time, ideas as well. After all it wasn't
really that long ago (during my mother's lifetime) when women were
considered chattel. Thankfully, at least in North America, that's no longer
the case (unfortunately it's still that way in some other countrys though).
While, I agree that when it comes down to it domesticated animals are
"property", but I believe they should be treated with a little more respect
than an inanimate object. They are after all living breathing creatures and
not someone's sofa.
Brenda ----> Who's thrilled that her nick is working up a storm for his
return to races - Go Wando!!! (and his little sister - Six Sexy Sisters who
is also working well!!!!)
Sheryl Reasonover
>A wee bit of a warning -- usually, the first to use a typo as a slam
>makes lots of typos. You lucked out this time.
Oh Lisa, I know the rules & have applied them many times LOL. But you have to
admit that that was an outstanding typo since we are discussing property.
Bill Kambic
> Not just language changes over time, ideas as well. After all it wasn't
> really that long ago (during my mother's lifetime) when women were
> considered chattel. Thankfully, at least in North America, that's no
longer
> the case (unfortunately it's still that way in some other countrys
though).
Bullshit. Women were NEVER "chattels" unless they were slaves and we have
not had slavery since 1865. The rights that were possessed varied from
state to state until the various Federal guarantees of the Bill of Rights
were incorporated and applied against the states by the 14th Amendment.
> While, I agree that when it comes down to it domesticated animals are
> "property", but I believe they should be treated with a little more
respect
> than an inanimate object. They are after all living breathing creatures
and
> not someone's sofa.
Perhaps so. But that lies in the discretion of the owner, limited by
whatever animal cruelty laws that might be in effect.
Tamara Howard
> Well, not really. Did you ever do any time on the board of directors of a
> humane society?
yes sir
If not then you don't know the meaning of the world "flake"
> when applied to "animal lovers."
ohhhhh but I dooooo....(the music from Jaws) they are out there behind words
Tamara in TN
Wando
> "Wando" wrote in message
>
> > Not just language changes over time, ideas as well. After all it wasn't
> > really that long ago (during my mother's lifetime) when women were
> > considered chattel. Thankfully, at least in North America, that's no
> longer
> > the case (unfortunately it's still that way in some other countrys
> though).
>
> Bullshit. Women were NEVER "chattels" unless they were slaves and we have
> not had slavery since 1865. The rights that were possessed varied from
> state to state until the various Federal guarantees of the Bill of Rights
> were incorporated and applied against the states by the 14th Amendment.
Perhaps in the US, however not true everywhere. Prior to 1929 in Canada,
women weren't legally considered as "people" under the British North
American Act. My mother was born in Quebec and even in the 1960's she could
not sell property without getting her husband's permission and signature. At
that time, in Quebec, women were considered to be the property of their
husbands.
Brenda
Bill Kambic
> > Bullshit. Women were NEVER "chattels" unless they were slaves and we
have
> > not had slavery since 1865. The rights that were possessed varied from
> > state to state until the various Federal guarantees of the Bill of
Rights
> > were incorporated and applied against the states by the 14th Amendment.
>
> Perhaps in the US, however not true everywhere. Prior to 1929 in Canada,
> women weren't legally considered as "people" under the British North
> American Act.
Well, I don't know. Could they own property? Sue and be sued? If they
could then they were "people" and not chattels.
My mother was born in Quebec and even in the 1960's she could
> not sell property without getting her husband's permission and signature.
That makes her a person under a disability (like a minor) but not a chattel.
At
> that time, in Quebec, women were considered to be the property of their
> husbands.
Good reason not to be from there, I guess.
Bill Kambic
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão
Kris Carroll
> My mother was born in Quebec and even in the 1960's she could
> > not sell property without getting her husband's permission and signature.
>
> Good reason not to be from there, I guess.
>
Nope, it was the same in NY in the 60s.
--
kcarroll at horse dash country dot com
agent provocateur and regular poster to rec.eq since early 90s
manure detector on; fads, gurus, cults, bullies are fair game
Bill Kambic
> > My mother was born in Quebec and even in the 1960's she could
> > > not sell property without getting her husband's permission and
signature.
> >
> > Good reason not to be from there, I guess.
> >
> Nope, it was the same in NY in the 60s.
This would surprise me, but it's possible.
Something that folks may be getting hung up on is that under some
circumstances a spouse can have an interest in the property of their other
if that property is considered a "marital asset." This is not a derogation
of the status of the wife but a recognition of the fact that the property
is, in fact, jointly owned (even if it be in the name of only one party).
Kris Carroll
"Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com> wrote:
> Something that folks may be getting hung up on is that under some
> circumstances a spouse can have an interest in the property of their other
> if that property is considered a "marital asset." This is not a derogation
> of the status of the wife but a recognition of the fact that the property
> is, in fact, jointly owned (even if it be in the name of only one party).
no, those old state laws treated adult women as idiot children with
court appointed guardians
Wando
If I recall correctly from stories my mother told me, in legal terminology
women were considered chattel because it's a term she used. Pretty sad, but
then Quebec has always been behind the times, took them an extra 20 years
before women got the vote.
My parents and I got out of Quebec when I was in Grade one due to the FLQ
crisis and the English/French issues. I'm quite happy to be now living in
Ontario. :o)
To get this back on something horsey related. I can't wait until spring gets
here. I'm looking forward to get back riding and get my horse moved closer
to where I live in April.
Brenda
Jim Casey
> Sue and be sued? If they could then they were "people" and not chattels.
I can't believe I'm reading this.
In the U.S., slaves were considered persons. You can find numerous
examples in the Constitution, including the infamous Article I, Section 2:
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the
several States ... according to their respective Numbers, which
shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons,
including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding
Indians not taxed, three-fifths of all other Persons.
Those latter persons were, of course, slaves.
Here's another, Article IV, Section 2:
No Person held to Service of Labour in one State, under the laws
thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or
Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour ...
Slaves could buy and sell, marry, and file lawsuits. If accused of a
crime, they were supposed to be afforded due process -- obviously this
didn't always happen, but the Amistad case is an outstanding precedent.
Killing a slave without cause was murder, not property damage.
The necessary and sufficient condition of being a chattel is that the
owner can use it, allow others to use it, prohibit others from using it,
and sell it.
- Jim
Dr Corinne B Leek
wrote:
>"Wando" wrote in message
> My mother was born in Quebec and even in the 1960's she could
>> not sell property without getting her husband's permission and signature.
>
>That makes her a person under a disability (like a minor) but not a chattel.
I dunno about that. The old Quebec system was basically the old
Napoleonic code, so they may, indeed, have been chattel.
They revamped everything in the mid-80s to bring their laws up to
date.
> At
>> that time, in Quebec, women were considered to be the property of their
>> husbands.
>Good reason not to be from there, I guess.
I spent my first 21 years in Quebec in (50s to early 70s).
Glad to be in Nova Scotia.
Corinne, whose Mom had a hiccup re: Quebec law and a signature...
Mikey, TIBP, who just hiccups, especially after eating...
Carrot Gin Fizz Still Crew, <hic> <glug, glug> <hic>...
--
*** Conserve Energy: Laughter is easier than Anger!
*** cl...@ns.sympatico.ca
John Hasler
> Something that folks may be getting hung up on is that under some
> circumstances a spouse can have an interest in the property of their
> other if that property is considered a "marital asset."
See for example "dower rights" and "curtsy rights".
It's possible that the women mentioned upthread had the legal right to
convey the real estate without permission from their husbands but that the
buyers wanted quitclaims from the husbands. Given the complexity of real
estate and marital law this is not unreasonable. Buyers (or rather their
title insurers) will sometimes require quitclaims from former spouses as
well as current ones.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
sha...@cyburban.com
wrote:
> "Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com> wrote:
>
>> My mother was born in Quebec and even in the 1960's she could
>> > not sell property without getting her husband's permission and signature.
>>
>> Good reason not to be from there, I guess.
>>
>
>Nope, it was the same in NY in the 60s.
I have a friend who got divorced in NY in the 80's.
To her astonishment and outrage, she needed her ex-husband's permission to
change her own name back to her own maiden name.
HHamp5246
>To her astonishment and outrage, she needed her ex-husband's permission to
>change her own name back to her own maiden name.
That's bull... I was divorced in the 80s and wanted to go back to my first
husband's name.
I asked my lawyer and he said I could start using the name immediately as my
intention wasn't to fraud.
When I got in front of the judge he said, "What do you want?"
I said, "I want a divorce, I want my name back and I want the tv back that he
stole."
After a few minutes of testimony.... the judge said,
"She gets her diviorce, she gets her name back and she gets the tv back."
To say the ex-husband has to give permission is absurd.
Hunter
http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm
My rig: http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/excella.htm
"You only get to choose what you read, not what I write."
lizzard woman
news:20040307222528...@mb-m24.aol.com...
| >I have a friend who got divorced in NY in the 80's.
| >To her astonishment and outrage, she needed her ex-husband's permission
to
| >change her own name back to her own maiden name.
|
| That's bull... I was divorced in the 80s and wanted to go back to my first
| husband's name.
|
| I asked my lawyer and he said I could start using the name immediately as
my
| intention wasn't to fraud.
You are correct based I what I know about name usage in NY. I was told that
to legally change your name you simply have to use the new name
consistently. I think there are odd cases typified by a guy who wanted to
change his name to a number and wasn't able to do that.
sharon
HHamp5246
name consistently. I think there are odd cases typified by a guy who wanted to
change his name to a number and wasn't able to do that.
>
>sharon>
What about Prince? He changed his to a symbol. <g>
lizzard woman
"HHamp5246" <hham...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
| > I was told that to legally change your name you simply have to use the
new
| name consistently. I think there are odd cases typified by a guy who
wanted to
| change his name to a number and wasn't able to do that.
| >
| >sharon>
|
| What about Prince? He changed his to a symbol. <g>
Good question ; )
For all we know, that was only for PR purposes. Its possible all his legal
instuments were still in his birth name which is Prince Rogers Nelson.
sharon
HHamp5246
>instuments were still in his birth name which is Prince Rogers Nelson.
I didn't know what..... the things we learn here.
lizzard woman
"HHamp5246" <hham...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
| >For all we know, that was only for PR purposes. Its possible all his
legal
| >instuments were still in his birth name which is Prince Rogers Nelson.
|
| I didn't know what..... the things we learn here.
Here's another... some college courses (in the humanities of course) assign
reading this newsgroup to study spleen-venting techniques ; )
sharon
HHamp5246
>Here's another... some college courses (in the humanities of course) assign
reading this newsgroup to study spleen-venting techniques ; )
>
>sharon<
Har!
volunteer
with the rescue organisation, but I have more pity for the people who
bought horses (for probably way too much money) on falsified vet
checks for their kids. They're the ones who were seriously screwed
over here."
My whole point of posting was to POSSIBLY raise some awareness and even perhaps find someone who has further information on the whereabouts of the STOLEN horses. And to put someone, who is a danger to the horse community by virtue of putting people (esp children) in danger not to mention stealing, and cheating. I had hoped for some outrage about that.
SWAP IS NOT A RESCUE! Many of these horses are as sound as any you will buy anywhere else, many very well trained.
It seems some of you folks are more into babble than action. If anyone has anything that might help - it will be greatfully appreciated if you contact us. Thank you.
Tom Stovall
[deletia - tale of woe in which someone sold leased property]
>SWAP IS NOT A RESCUE!...
SWAP ain't swapping anything either - unless you count swapping
money for leasing pukes.
Many of these horses are as sound as any you will buy
anywhere else, many very well trained...
Your use of the word "buy" is disingenuous and misleading:
for the sake of accuracy, shouldn't you say "lease?"
>It seems some of you folks are more into babble than
>action...
I find the folks comprising most so-called "rescue" and
"adoption" outfits in the horse world to be beneath contempt.
They are birds of a similar feather, sure of their position
on the moral high ground, who attempt to use subterfuge and
newspeak in an attempt to impose their particular set of
prejudices on the rest of the world.
>If anyone has anything that might help - it will be greatfully
>appreciated if you contact us. Thank you.
Why would any horse person help someone such as yourself?
Anyone who uses the word "sell" when they mean "lease" - as
you did in this public post - is trying to bilk the public.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but it appears the bilker
became the bilkee in this instance. Poetic justice.
Instead of whining about somebody selling your property
illegally after you leased it to them under false pretenses,
perhaps you might consider telling folks up front they are
assuming responsibility for a chattel without the authority to
dispose of that chattel as they see fit.
--
Tom Stovall, CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://www.katyforge.com
"That government governs best that governs least."
-Thomas Jefferson
danh
news:fc35cbc98963bfe1...@localhost.talkaboutpets.com...
> "She obviously did an illegal thing as regards the original contract
> with the rescue organisation, but I have more pity for the people who
> bought horses (for probably way too much money) on falsified vet
> checks for their kids. They're the ones who were seriously screwed
> over here."
>
> My whole point of posting was to POSSIBLY raise some awareness and even
perhaps find someone who has further information on the whereabouts of the
STOLEN horses. And to put someone, who is a danger to the horse community by
virtue of putting people (esp children) in danger not to mention stealing,
and cheating. I had hoped for some outrage about that.
Among the more outrageous matters is the lackadaisical attitude toward
potential lessees whom SWAP seems to regard as their personal piggy bank.
The bare facts are that SWAP failed to follow up on claims being made by the
mark, er, lessee, er, adoptee, so they had no idea whether the horses were
going to a good home, as is their stated intent. It never crossed SWAP's
collective miniature mind that a person taking on a couple of dozen horses
might not be all they claimed, and SWAP never bothered to check up on the
horses they regard as so precious they refuse to grant title. Finally, you
come out of the closet and want a collective group hug for reprehensible and
irresponsible behavior toward the horses. There is plenty of outrage - SWAP
needs to get out of the horse business.
> SWAP IS NOT A RESCUE! Many of these horses are as sound as any you will
buy anywhere else, many very well trained.
Buy? It's clear that SWAP is not selling. Why would you compare their acts
to those of a seller...unless you're being intentionally misleading.
> It seems some of you folks are more into babble than action. If anyone has
anything that might help - it will be greatfully appreciated if you contact
us. Thank you.
Here's a helpful clue: get out of the horse business. It'll be better for
the horses, better for buyers, er marks, and show SWAP actually has some
integrity, albeit acquired late. Then get counseling. You're welcome.
John Hasler
> For all we know, that was only for PR purposes. Its possible all his
> legal instuments were still in his birth name which is Prince Rogers
> Nelson.
The purpose was to work around a contract with his ex-publisher. It
induced the press to refer to him as "the performer formerly known as
Prince", thereby keeping him associated with the name while the contract
ran out.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
lizzard woman
| sharon writes:
|| For all we know, that was only for PR purposes. Its possible all his
|| legal instuments were still in his birth name which is Prince Rogers
|| Nelson.
|
| The purpose was to work around a contract with his ex-publisher. It
| induced the press to refer to him as "the performer formerly known as
| Prince", thereby keeping him associated with the name while the
| contract ran out.
I bow to the cleverness of that ploy.
sharon
C. Little
>
> My whole point of posting was to POSSIBLY raise some awareness and even perhaps find someone who has further information on the whereabouts of the STOLEN horses. And to put someone, who is a danger to the horse community by virtue of putting people (esp children) in danger not to mention stealing, and cheating. I had hoped for some outrage about that.
>
> SWAP IS NOT A RESCUE! Many of these horses are as sound as any you will buy anywhere else, many very well trained.
>
> It seems some of you folks are more into babble than action. If anyone has anything that might help - it will be greatfully appreciated if you contact us. Thank you.
Uh.... It's a *discussion* group. We're *discussing* it.
What about my post makes you think that I don't find the actions of
the con-artist reprehensible? Considering that I'm on the west coast,
there's probably not a lot I can do about your particular horses.
Horse theft happens out here, too, and as far as I can tell law
enforcement doesn't get too upset about it. The only way a friend of
mine got hers back was by advertising and an anonymous tip. When she
called the County Mounties they simply told her to go get them and if
you run into any trouble give us a call.
And if the horses are sound and well trained, why not put them in
homes where they'll be used, like a handicapped riding program,
instead of just parking them?
Cheryl
Leann
"C. Little" <che...@glacierview.net> wrote in message
news:c54ce5c4.04030...@posting.google.com...
> >
> And if the horses are sound and well trained, why not put them in
> homes where they'll be used, like a handicapped riding program,
> instead of just parking them?
>
> Cheryl
Why have them worry about anything when they get that lease money under the
guise of an 'adoption' for some poor sap that doesn't know the difference.
All their adoptees really are only overglorified unpaid fostering
facitilities.
I can't see why I would pay out money to have the pleasure of caring for one
of their castoffs when they should pay for my time and expenses to babysit
their critters.
yep... prey on those new to horse ownership that are too wet behind the ears
to know that all they are getting is a leased animal instead of one they
truly own free and clear of stipulations.
PlantMan116
No, and neither is it a registered non-profit 501 (c) 3. Therefore any
donations of any kind are not tax deductible for the donator. And it is not
required to make available to the public how the donations are handled.
> The adopter in question took advantage of the periodic adoption fee auctions
>and got some very nice horses for very small fees. <<
Small, indeed, pennies on the pound. Far less than meat auction prices. Even
the average horse owner is aware that pricing a horse way under market is open
season for attracting dealers and unscrupulous people. Shocking to think that
experienced adoption people should be so naive.
> This adoption program does check references but when you do several hundred
>adoptions a year, many with small fees there is no way to physically check
>out where the horses are going.
If "adopting" that many horses isn't suspicious enough, logic would dictate
that an even more thorough check would be warranted for an adoption this large.
A quick search of county records can easily tell if a person owns the land they
live on. It's obvious this was not done.
Who owns the land that Crossed Sabers is located on? I remember a few years ago
when they were scrambling for donations because they were several months behind
on payments of their lease and were in danger of being evicted.
.> People donate great horses to this program because it is strict, they test
>horse knowledge and check out their adopters (Vet, farrier and a couple of
>personal references including horse related) and they follow-up.
There are several people who have adopted horses from SWAP who have never had
references checked, nor have any follow up visits been done, as was promised to
former owners. Quite a bit of breech of contract going on.
>The whole idea of a horse adoption program is to PROTECT the horses<
Reading over the SWAP page on fraud case, there are several references to "this
is costing us a small fortune" and "we now have several thousand dollars into
these horses because of this situation". SWAP screws up big time and then has
the audacity to bitch about the cost of fixing their mistake? Give me a break.
It's clear what SWAP wants to protect-and it isn't the horses.
sha...@cyburban.com
>>I have a friend who got divorced in NY in the 80's.
>>To her astonishment and outrage, she needed her ex-husband's permission to
>>change her own name back to her own maiden name.
>
>That's bull.
Bull, Hell. That's what she told me at the time. The exact date I don't
really remember.
>.. I was divorced in the 80s and wanted to go back to my first
>husband's name.
>
>I asked my lawyer and he said I could start using the name immediately as my
>intention wasn't to fraud.
>
>When I got in front of the judge he said, "What do you want?"
>
>I said, "I want a divorce, I want my name back and I want the tv back that he
>stole."
>
>After a few minutes of testimony.... the judge said,
>
>"She gets her diviorce, she gets her name back and she gets the tv back."
>
>To say the ex-husband has to give permission is absurd.
Perhaps it depends on the judge. As I remember this was a long and
bitterly contest divorce.
DEALERDEB1
Here's a helpful clue: get out of the horse business. It'll be better for
the horses, better for buyers, er marks, and show SWAP actually has some
integrity, albeit acquired late. Then get counseling. You're welcome.
Couldn't aggre with you more. deb
DEALERDEB1
is costing us a small fortune" and "we now have several thousand dollars into
these horses because of this situation". SWAP screws up big time and then has
the audacity to bitch about the cost of fixing their mistake? Give me a break.
It's clear what SWAP wants to protect-and it isn't the horses.
It;s nice to see that I'm not the only one as they claim that sees whats going
on and not liking it one little bit. This group sent one of their "volunteers "
to threaten me with a lawsuit for what? having an honest opinion........maybe
honesty is something they should admire and try to emmulate not threaten JMHO
DEB
DEALERDEB1
is costing us a small fortune" and "we now have several thousand dollars into
these horses because of this situation". SWAP screws up big time and then has
the audacity to bitch about the cost of fixing their mistake? Give me a break.
It's clear what SWAP wants to protect-and it isn't the horses.
The question is dear Volunteer? WHy are you here? It is patently obvious no
one here is buying into you SPIN and no one gives a rats ass what you have to
say . This is a very intelligent group who cannot be duped by your hype about
altruism and adoptions. deb
volunteer
The reason for my post is to find the horses and to assure them the safety that the program promised - no sale.
As you say in your post, an anonymous tip found your friend's horse. By raising awareness, perhaps one of my posts on the many sites on which I have posted , MAY just bring out some information helpful in finding the horses or stopping this person. Since my initial post here, there have been numerous other people who have come forward and stated that they were 'ripped off' by the perpetrator. There is strength in numbers and while one person may be ignored by legal authorities, perhaps multiple stories will get attention.
There WAS farm visit made after the first few horses were placed. This person presented the picture of an ideal situation and had references to back it up and of course the lies on the application. It was only after an extensive background check that the truth came out. A 'con artist' is very convincing. There have been many potential adopters that have been turned down. This woman didn't adopt all the horses at one time. Sure there were 'red flags' along the way, she had perfect answers for any questions. The 'red flags' apparently weren't so red until after the fact.
volunteer
Bill Kambic
> I think if you (all) would read about the horses which have been adopted
over the years...
<balance deleted for brevity>
This is an impossibility as the horses involved were leased and/or sold.
Maybe when you folks get a grip on reality more people will pay attention to
you.
Bill Kambic
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão
DEALERDEB1
you.
That willl never happen because the whole deal is a fantasy and there are so
many smoke and mirror dodges going on who as an intelligent person can take
this seriously? If it walks Like a duck and quacks like a duck it is most
likely a duck.............if horses are traded for monetary consideration it's
a
sale or lease exactly as you stated.Let them just be honest about it. Why not
state "hey if you have limited funds, have lowered expectations, we can sell
you a limited use horse for way more than the worth on the open market,maybe
you might get lucky and at one of our "Auctions" you might find a sound one or
if you have a big heart give us money for finding that cripple that tears at
your heartstrings for you for a fee. Hey we''ve gotta eat too. and BTW could
you please pay all your taxes on time too so MR millionaire can get his tax
writeoff on his very expensive horse he got his neighbor to write a phoney
appraisal on?I mean the Government has to get there money somehow. Just not
from our huge operation marketing 1000 horses with no taxes involved. Lets all
do everything so these palces can operate free and clear and the manager can
get her house truck elelectricity , feed, gas, computer, and her farm
completely paid for by donations. After all the 12K at the end of the year
after all the expenses are paid is not "Profit" Oh no gentle readers it's a
little tiny wee salary.........yeah right and we're going to Disney World
tommorow.
Bill Kambic
charge. Did I miss it? Does anyone know what their fee schedule is?
DEALERDEB1
information and pictures of the horses. If a horse is to be moved, paperwork
needs to be done.
Then it only stands to reason that if all these checks and balances are in
place then someone fell asleep at the helm with these 25 horses. lets see
thats' only 2% that we know of but hey it's only 2% we lost track of ......gee
that we know of." Where is all this PAperwork on these horses? WHy were
registration papers given to this girl if it wasn't a "sale" and why Now you
guys cry Foul! I think you've been indoctrinated and have your head up your
butt if you don't see this goes from the ridiculous to the sublime. I mean I
could claim every sad thin horse I buy at an auction is a rescue. sure it is
I'm saving a horse from who knows what. BUT do I get tax free status? does
anyone pay my bills? You know I think I've been doing this all wrong for 35
years. I've been a good honest business person who takes remarkable care of her
animals and represents them honestly and fairly........gee if I can just
change my ways I could do all this for free , just create a fantasy
..........now if I can only convince the government
.............................................
MGreen6822
the best i can figure is whatever they think the buyer can stand.I doubt even
the volunteers have a clue,I would think they are mostly horse lovers that cant
have their own horses due to where they live or something.
DEALERDEB1
Sure you pander to the very most sensitive of human emotions and convince them
that "the adoption" fee is far less than the horse is really worth when in fact
their market value most of the time is killer prices.Way less than the so
called adoption fees.. sure they'd adopt. it's a great con and people always go
for a deal like that. Just how do you justify a fee of $1300 on a 19 year old
mixed breed horse with arthritis and limited use?besides the fact the horse
should be retired at that point and the honest kindest thing to do would be to
turn him out and forget being used. At a sale that horse may go for $2-300.
However the average person has no idea of real market conditions. when my
lesson horses were getting on in years I sent them to a retirement farm in
Virginia paid for their vet and farrier work and gave them the life they
earned. Why don't you just seek donations for their upkepp? HAve an "Adopt a
horse " thing like the hiways have to pay for their care? this is just
Horsesfor a fee transaction call it what you will. It is what it is and you
can't sugar coat it to smart people. BTW the "knowledgable " horsemen you claim
you adopt to would probably never be considered "knowledgable" within or to
the industry and the ones that are go and get them out of these types of places
for a fee...........................25 of them
DEALERDEB1
people and to fit horse to rider abilities
And who is the person deciding their knowledge? A horseman? A professional? or
an airplane pilot and a bunch of Volunteers whose knowledge is self promotiong
fiction? Just curious. 90% pf these adopters are ill equiped amateurs or just
horse lovers I see so many of them get unsuitable horses then come crying to me
" the horse is lame, the horse has medical problems, no one told me it would
attack my kids......Gee I was told this was a top show horse ' I've seen with
my own eyes over and over the wonderful matches that are made in hell. They are
bullied into keeping them or threatened with God knows what if they try and
tell the truth. I've seen very sick animals that have been placed before they
were well and the owners ringing up thousands in vet bills. I've seen these
places claim "oh you have to pay for that didn't you see in that minute print
we are not responsible for medical care once the horse leaves here? " Then
the people give up and either send them back for "ANOTHER" restocking fee or
they just dump them at the local auctions where the wind up in the killer pen
anyway." You wonder why people have problems believeing you? the facts are just
too overwhelming and not in the favor of the rescues around these parts.
MGreen6822
>the years
Adopted or sold?
>horse people who are delighted to have the opportunity to have the use of
>these sometimes highly trained horses.
but of course no one is going to publish on a web site the unhappy letters or
the ones that are heartbroken.get a clue.
Mary
MGreen6822
>that the program promised - no sale.
>
they were sold! plain out sold w/papers for the ones that had papers.so now
they will be resold when you find them all.
Mary
DEALERDEB1
charge. Did I miss it? Does anyone know what their fee schedule is?
go to most any Rescue's site and click on the horses for "adoption" usually
they have the fee for that particular animal in the ad. different places have
different fees for different horses. "Guess it's what the market will bear"
maybe that's why sometimes a lot of horses are let go to one person for cheap
because they can't garner huge "adoption " fees and the cost of maintaining
them doesn't justify keeping them to "ADOPT" out one at a time........Maybe
then again ......... DEB
Dana Compton
>I went to their web site and could not find anything about the fees they
>charge. Did I miss it? Does anyone know what their fee schedule is?
>
>Bill Kambic
>
At one time they were posted and they had "sales" (weird huh?) The really nice
horses went on up to 1400.00 the useless horses were free as companions.
I was aproved as an adopter at one point. Decided the whole thing was too weird
for me. The thing that did apeal to me though was the fact that when the horse
was no longer any use to me I did not have to deal with disposing of it. I
could just send it back and get a new one.
Dana- horsekeeper to;
Asthor - 8 year old ASB gelding
Juan's Magic- 17 year old TB gelding
DEALERDEB1
was no longer any use to me I did not have to deal with disposing of it. I
could just send it back and get a new one.
Disposable horses what a novel approach LOL I know Dana is a love just
couldn't help the pun LOL DEB
sha...@cyburban.com
>I went to their web site and could not find anything about the fees they
>charge. Did I miss it? Does anyone know what their fee schedule is?
>
I found the fees scattered around and a bit confusing but as far as I
can make out to donate a perfectly sound horse you are to give them $50
plus the horse. You are then to pay them $200 month board if the horse
goes to their facility until they find a placement for it. For a "special
needs" horse the fee is $250 and the board is $300 month. On top of this
there is a fee for training of $1200 for 3 months but the training is not
required. Should you change your mind and want your horse back, it's just
too bad, you can't have him. By the way they warn you not to consider
selling or donating your horse elsewhere as bad things are almost sure to
happen to him while for an additional fee of only $5000 they will track
the horse you donate to them for life and preseumably snatch him back
if he's not being properly cared for.
Now to the "adoption" end. There is a 29 page application to be filled out
with and sent in along with a $60 application fee. After that, if you've
been approved therer are a variety of horses up for adoption with fees
ranging from $500 to $7500. I did not look at all of them. None of them
sound like bargains. Moreover, there is a 9 page adoption contract in which
you agree that if they do not like the way you are doing things "the horse
may be recovered at any time and without the Adopter present, without a
court authority and without contracting the Adopter through U.S. Mail."
I wonder who "adopts" these horses. It seems so much easier just to buy
one.
Bill Kambic
Thanks for your research!<g>
I figured this was one of "those" programs and you have now proved it.
> I wonder who "adopts" these horses. It seems so much easier just to buy
> one.
Indeed.
AngelaW
You pay them to take the horse.
You pay them to board the horse.
You pay them to train the horse.
You pay them to track the horse. (aren't they supposed to do that anyway???)
The "adopter" pays the application fee.
The "adopter" pays the "adoption" fee.
If they don't like you, your barn, or the color of your car they can take the
horse back and get more money from a second (or third) buyer??
I am in the wrong damn business!!
AngelaW
DEALERDEB1
Popel who are scammed into believing they are getting a 100,000 horse for
$5000? yeah right and I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell them.
Deb
DEALERDEB1
LOL what do you think the world has been screaming the "F" word for? and it
ain't Fish LOL
F- is for "Find". Idiots who buy this scam
R- is for "Reaming" the hype up your butt
A- is for " A--Hole we got you!"
U- is for "Using" you
D- is for "Dummy" deaf dumb and blind
Whaddaya get?????............................
LOL DEB
DEALERDEB1
You pay them to take the horse.
You pay them to board the horse.
You pay them to train the horse.
You pay them to track the horse. (aren't they supposed to do that anyway???)
The "adopter" pays the application fee.
The "adopter" pays the "adoption" fee.
If they don't like you, your barn, or the color of your car they can take the
horse back and get more money from a second (or third) buyer??
And they get donations to pay for hay feed rent truck etc and then they cry
they only get a measly salary Yeah Right sure I can't sell you that Bridge too?
Bill Kambic
I don't care who has title to the bridge as long as I get to collect the
tolls!!!!!
notap...@comcast.net
<big snip of never ending fees>
In other words, they get you coming, going and while you are there!
What's amazing is that any one jumps through all these hoops. I guess
there truly is one born every minute.
Elaine
DEALERDEB1
The amazing part is the pot calls the kettle black and the Government doesn't
look into this .....Thats the amazing part. I'm 3 days late on my taxes and I
get threatening letters what do they get? MOre tax breaks ............ Just in
case you don't realize it we are ALL paying for this one way or the other. deb
CM 2
the other. deb"
Absolutely. Reality bites, don't it? :-(
Candy
MGreen6822
>
Deb I asked in another thread but dont think you are following that one Who
gets the foal or the money from the foals in this I have known several really
legit rescues and I have never heard of breeding the mares in rescue until this
one and one here in Fl I do believe the one here has lost their 501c status,
because they were adopting horses out for $2000-$3500in this deal we were
discussing someone said the mares were bred and then "adopted" out. was just
curious about these foals.
Mary