unbelievable
cindi
from folks who think she's full Friesian. Then the latest caller
wants to know what proof I have that she's actually my horse to sell.
I have sold around 85 unregistered horses with no "proof" that they
were mine... In some cases I guess I had proof in the form of a bill
of sale from a previous owner but I don't know how informative things
like "sorrel gelding" are in the long run, and not a single buyer
asked to see anything. And in all the horses I've bought from private
individuals I have NEVER asked for or seen any proof that the horse
was really theirs to sell. In Liebe's case I guess I have emails
between me and her previous owner... I dunno, I've just never been
asked that question before. I suppose somebody might try to sell a
horse that's not theirs but you'd think they'd do some sort of secret
deal or an auction or something, not advertise the heck out of the
horse all over the internet. If Liebe isn't really mine to sell, then
the true owner sure won't have to look hard to figure out what
happened to her. ;-)
People also want to know why Liebe hasn't seen the vet... Well, er,
she has not been sick. I don't just call the vet out for the heck of
it. People want more time than Wednesday - about 5 people, very upset
that this has to be decided before Wednesday. Sorry, this deal is for
people who are ready now. I think I was clear on that. ;-) I have
offered half price board for anybody who buys her before Wednesday but
who's not ready to move her yet...
People want to make payments, people want more time, sheesh. So this
is turning into way more of a pain in the butt than I had expected.
It looks like she's going to go off to training (another caller told
me not to take her to training so she'd have more time to come see
her! Er, no) and she'll either sell there or I'll be doing the whole
triangle thingy when I get back. ;-)
cindi
Sue Leopold
> Goodness. She is not full Friesian! I've received about 10 calls now
> from folks who think she's full Friesian. Then the latest caller
> wants to know what proof I have that she's actually my horse to sell.
<snip>
What the heck is it about buying a horse that turns perfectly
nice people into psycho mutant nutjobs from hell?
But, but, but you have Friesian/Thoroughbred on your
website. So obviously she must be a thoroughbred
Frieisian. ;-)
Payments on an $1800 horse? OK, now I have heard everything.
If Liebe is registerable there must be a stallion report somewhere.
Can you get hold of it and have it transferred to your name?
Just to make you feel better - Donal has a client who told him,
in all sincerity, that her horse needed to go to Ireland for two
weeks of riding because that would look good on his
Curriculum Vitae. Honest, she was ready to put him through
a trans-Atlantic flight and quarantine so his CV would be
more complete. And yes, she did refer to it as his CV. I mean,
wtf is that about? It's a horse.
>
> People want to make payments, people want more time, sheesh. So this
> is turning into way more of a pain in the butt than I had expected.
> It looks like she's going to go off to training (another caller told
> me not to take her to training so she'd have more time to come see
> her! Er, no) and she'll either sell there or I'll be doing the whole
> triangle thingy when I get back. ;-)
I see a triangle in your future. It will look good on her Curriculum
Vitae. I don't care if she's still a yearling, it is never too early to
start working on it.
:-D
Hunter Hampton
Leopold) wrote:
>
>But, but, but you have Friesian/Thoroughbred on your
>website.
There are many people who misuse "thoroughbred" to mean "purebred"
I have heard many people say they have a "thoroughbred" dog, or a
thoroughbred cat....
To them, thoroughbred Friesian means "purebred"
Hunter
Alison Hiltabidle
mebbe specify by Tb / Friesian x .....
carol grosvenor
That's all pretty funny. I haven't read much lately, so don't know
what is going on with this, but I also used to sell horses for people,
and I have to say, I got sick of it. Everyone wanted to make payments.
That's fine, but figure it out yourself. They wanted so much. It
turned out not to be worth the money I was charging to sell all those
horses. Best of luck.
I guess the price must have been so low as to appear the horse was
stolen, as $1800 does not buy a Friesian.
Carol
lizzardwoman
(snip)
> And yes, she did refer to it as his CV. I mean,
> wtf is that about? It's a horse.
and
> I see a triangle in your future. It will look good on her Curriculum
> Vitae. I don't care if she's still a yearling, it is never too early to
> start working on it.
LOL. Good one. :)
Made me laugh at least.
sharon
cindi
Friesian cross, Friesian cross! :-)
I didn't realize I wasn't supposed to advertise my stolen Friesians
all over the internet! :-)
thanks all
cindi
cindi
> But, but, but you have Friesian/Thoroughbred on your
> website. So obviously she must be a thoroughbred
> Frieisian. ;-)
Yes, yes, that's got to be it. Although I seem to remember one ad
site I used didn't have a "Friesian cross" choice like all the others
did, so I chose Friesian, but the ad text clearly states Friesian
cross... I placed like 8 additional ads on sites I've never used
before, so maybe I should try to remember all of them and check the
ads more closely.
> Payments on an $1800 horse? OK, now I have heard everything.
I've had payment requests on even the $800 rescues I've had here to
place. Makes ya wonder...
> If Liebe is registerable there must be a stallion report somewhere.
> Can you get hold of it and have it transferred to your name?
The sire owner mailed me something but it's in a huge stack of
paperwork I need to go thru. She will do whatever has to happen for
future people to register her. She's been very nice. The previous
owner, my boarder, has the real paperwork including the part she
needed to have filled out as the dam owner/breeder, but she hasn't
mailed it yet... I sent her another email requesting it today.
> And yes, she did refer to it as his CV. I mean,
> wtf is that about? It's a horse.
OMG. That is hilarious.
> I see a triangle in your future. It will look good on her Curriculum
> Vitae. I don't care if she's still a yearling, it is never too early to
> start working on it.
heeheehee!
take care
cindi
lizzardwoman
Okay that was hilarious.
Giggling like an idiot... :)
sharon
cindi
> > I didn't realize I wasn't supposed to advertise my stolen Friesians
> > all over the internet! :-)
>
> Okay that was hilarious.
>
> Giggling like an idiot... :)
Hey, at least I'm leaving the country! They'll never catch me! :-)
c.
lizzardwoman
You're on a roll!
LOL!
sharon
Madeline Rockwell
news:ahs665h2jshgec5b2...@4ax.com...
Period.
madeline
Sue Leopold
Hunter Hampton
<made...@vermontel.net> wrote:
>And those people have no business buying a minimally handled yearling.
>Period.
>
>madeline
No argument here <g> So many people have responded thinking the horse
is all Friesian, I just think I know where the confusion is coming in.
Hunter
Cricket
I got over being polite about this sort of thing a long time ago - I'm
perfectly capable of smiling sweetly and telling someone "Nope, this horse
won't work for you. Later."
I'm hated by all sorts of fascinating people. Works well - keeps them and
their idiot friends away. If they've got non-idiot friends, after they hear
the story they call me. No shit - I had someone call me and so "So-and-so
can't stand you (it was known that I already knew this) so you must be
good". ;>D
Did their horses for years, 'til they got out of the horse business. Made
tons of money off them, and never had to ever put up with "so-and-so" again,
either.
Cricket
cindi
>
> Maybe you'll get some interest from a Nigerian scamm, er
> investor!
:-) I actually haven't gotten one of those emails on this horse
lately.
So, get this. One of the prospective buyers calls me back. She is
very upset that I would have the nerve to advertise a horse on the
internet with no way to verify that she's really part Friesian, and
she says it's very fishy that she hasn't had a vet check, and she
wants to talk to the vet who oversaw the "birth", and I said um that
would be me, although not a vet, and she wants to then talk to the vet
who worked on Liebe's mom when she got a uterine infection after the
foaling, and I explain that the vet won't talk to just anybody, that
she needs clearance from the dam's owner, and that she's sick and
surely unable to give written permission by Wednesday, and what does
it matter, it wasn't about Liebe anyway, it was about the dam.
Then she says I'm the one advertising a horse for sale, it's my
responsibility to ensure all these things are in place for potential
buyers, and that I need to be able to prove who the parents are. I
explain that even if we did have papers, without DNA parentage
verification there is still no way to ENSURE the horse is really the
baby of who she's said to be... I tell her to email the sire owner,
she and I have been in contact and she knows what's going on, but the
reality is, sure, yes, maybe this is just any black horse I found
wandering around that I'm trying to pass off as half Friesian, and if
you're that concerned you need to get one from a breeder directly
where you witness the birth, breed your own mare, or pay for DNA
testing, because ultimately, you're taking somebody's word for it.
She says she went to the sire's website and Liebe isn't listed as one
of the 2008 foals, and that's very fishy, and I say so what, who knows
who they list and who they don't list, they probably only list the
ones *they* bred, and I know they list ones for sale and they've told
me they won't list Liebe unless I raise her price to at least
$5000... She then thinks the sire owner is the breeder, so I have to
explain all that to her...
So she says the whole thing is too fishy. She says I'm not a
reputable seller and something is not right, plus I'm leaving the
country... (heh heh that part is pretty funny.) So I say ok then,
don't buy the horse. She said but she's a good buyer with money and
it's my fault for listing a horse for sale who never had a vet check
and for not being able to prove that Friso is really her sire, etc
etc. I end with look, if the deal is fishy to you or if there are
things you want that I can't provide either ever or before Wednesday,
then this is not the horse for you, sorry. But I'm a good buyer, she
says. But it's too fishy, she says. Then don't buy the horse, I
say! Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But you're advertising this
horse on the internet without any of that proof, she says, wah wah
wah, like I'm going to be sued or something.
From her previous phone call she wanted some sort of guarantee that
she'd get the hair that a full Friesian would have. That is her only
concern, the horse has to be part Friesian FOR SURE, and that it gets
a lot of hair. Oh and she can't bring her home for a while though
because her fencing is down.
Criminy. I guess at this price and with that video, these are the
types of buyers I should expect to be hearing from! You'd think
somebody local who has a clue would at least run over and take a look
at her.
cindi
Cricket
"cindi" <alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:13746710-4bd7-4101...@y4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> People want to make payments, people want more time, sheesh. So this
> is turning into way more of a pain in the butt than I had expected.
> It looks like she's going to go off to training (another caller told
> me not to take her to training so she'd have more time to come see
> her! Er, no) and she'll either sell there or I'll be doing the whole
> triangle thingy when I get back. ;-)
>
> cindi
My friend with the riding stable buys and sells a lot of horses. Even if
you don't *want* to be in the horse trading business, with a riding stable
you have to be, because it takes a very special kind of horse, and there is
absolutely no way to know if they'll work 'til you've tried them for a month
or so (well, some that *won't* work are pretty obvious right away - but even
then, not always). So for every eight you buy, you end up selling six
pretty quick, and the seventh before the end of the season, to get one good
horse to put on the line. There is usually *nothing* wrong with the horse -
it's just not right for a stable plug. Often it's *too* good, either over
responsive, or just too nice to let a lot of amatuers up on.
Short version - she deals with a *lot* of people, buying and selling.
After listening to her, and sometimes being there while she's dealing with
people, plus being on the receiving end of a lot of forwarded emails (can
people that stupid *really* use a computer??), I have decided that I would
take up doing donkey acts in Tijuana for a living before I'd take up horse
trading.
Cricket
Tamara in TN
but the
> reality is, sure, yes, maybe this is just any black horse I found
> wandering around that I'm trying to pass off as half Friesian, and if
> you're that concerned you need to get one from a breeder directly
> where you witness the birth, breed your own mare, or pay for DNA
> testing, because ultimately, you're taking somebody's word for it.
well this is one reason that more than one Spanish breed actually
takes pictures
of the stallion covering the mare....not as anything "official" but
for the very reason you
are describing...
when Arabs were "hot" any dish faced mutt pony was passed off as a
Arab part bred,when Andy's were hot any board faced grey was an Andy
partbred
now any black anything is a Fresian cross...
if she is wasting this much time for an $1800 mutt she will not be
any kind of
person you want to sell to...it will never be right,you will always be
wrong and eventually
she will want her money back...
you have her "dink priced" and now all the "dink buyers"
are popping up like beetles...but maybe with no papers and no history
and no nothing else
the price is fair..
who knows
Tamara in TN
River Oaks Farm
I told you it was too low! *wink* But in all honesty, anyone who
knows what a horse like this should sell for, is going to be
suspicious of her low price. The fact that she is too cheap AND must
be sold before Wednesday may make people even more suspicious.
And really, you can't blame people for being suspicious..... there
are all sorts of horse scammers on the internet. I have even had
photos of my own stallion used in these scams (without my knowledge or
permission, obviously.) One sales website had to ban an entire
country (Camaroon) to make the scam ads stop.
You know the saying -- if it sounds too good to be true, it probably
is. Well, an $1800 Main Book eligible Friesian Sporthorse yearling
certainly falls into the "sounds too good to be true" category....
It would make me suspicious. My thoughts would probably be "what is
wrong with her", "is she really Friesian/TB", and "is she stolen".
As for people wanting proof that she is half Friesian, I can
understand this as well. There are alot of people trying to pass off
anything black and remotely hairy as a "Friesian cross". I am
directly involved with the FSA, and you wouldn't believe some of the
sad situations we encounter, from buyers who discover they've been
lied to and their horse isn't really registered, or eligible for
registration, or approved for breeding, or isn't even the cross it was
supposed to be, and so forth, the list goes on..... The worst are
probably the people who buy breeding stock only to learn it will never
be eligible to be approved for breeding, or the people who buy a horse
because it is supposed to be a specific cross, only to learn it is
something else.
This is all just a long way of saying, I don't blame buyers for asking
questions. I wouldn't take it personally. It's just that alot of
dishonest sellers (and internet scammers) have made buyers wary.
There really are dishonest sellers out there, and "buyer beware" is
good advice...
I'd rather have them ask these types of questions up front, then have
to be the bad guy at the registry later when you've got to break the
news to them that the horse they bought...........isn't what it was
supposed to be.
Good luck..... :-)
s_pi...@hotmail.com
Could be just me, but for $1800 I'd buy it if I liked it (and
incidently I do). All these registrary questions and wanting to talk
to the vet etc., should come with a much higher priced horse. For
$1800 you get what you see, as is, where is.
I think it's a lovely animal that should sell easily. Ignore the
freaks, seriously don't waste your limited time on them. A sensible
buyer will come along that understands buying a youngster is always a
gamble and they chose to take it or not.
Splash
JC Dill
> Criminy. I guess at this price and with that video, these are the
> types of buyers I should expect to be hearing from! You'd think
> somebody local who has a clue would at least run over and take a look
> at her.
This is the problem with a bad ad and an inappropriate price (too low).
The appropriate buyers don't even see your ad, or if they see it they
figure something is wrong with the horse.
jc
Jane Saranac
<s_pi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1a3a0a13-1475-49bd...@24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Could be just me, but for $1800 I'd buy it if I liked it (and
incidently I do). All these registrary questions and wanting to talk
to the vet etc., should come with a much higher priced horse. For
$1800 you get what you see, as is, where is.
--- I agree.
I think it's a lovely animal that should sell easily. Ignore the
freaks, seriously don't waste your limited time on them. A sensible
buyer will come along that understands buying a youngster is always a
gamble and they chose to take it or not.
-- Yep. Exactly my philosophy as well. Which is why I said it depends upon
the market. There is a market for this horse at this price and it is people
like you and me and I don't think we're alone.
My Friesian x was advertised for less than Liebe. He was marked down from
$6,500. I admit that I asked the seller right away what was wrong with him,
but I got to know her over the phone in several calls, reviewed her web site
and got a feel for her (and she had buyer testimonials, etc.) I saw a
blurry video of Damascus and some photos that I really didn't like. But I
liked his video. So, I took a chance. I paid almost as much to ship him
from Kentucky as I did to buy him but it was Providence for me, it turned
out that I knew many people in common with the shippers and she has become a
friend and took wonderful care of him on the journey. And he is a wonderful,
beautiful horse. I think he will suit our needs just fine for dressage.
Moves and looks even better in person. My trainer laughs at how I step in
@#$%$% going on instinct, but I usually do okay with my gambles. I have
four wonderful horses. I would have bought Liebe if I wanted another cross
and another filly notwithstanding the video, because at that price to me she
is worth it. She clearly looks like a Friesian/TB cross to me, I'd not be
worried about parentage, and I like her gaits (I think the canter was just
baby stuff) and I like what I see of her personality . I have my hands full
and don't need any other horses though if I know of anyone I will send them
along!
Sue Leopold
> You know the saying -- if it sounds too good to be true, it probably
> is. Well, an $1800 Main Book eligible Friesian Sporthorse yearling
> certainly falls into the "sounds too good to be true" category....
But - if I was looking for a Friesian cross and I saw one at this
price (and cindi still has the original price of 4500 listed which
is a reasonable price) then I would do my research and call
with a list of questions. I would have a
1) Is this filly registered? If so, with whom?
2) If she is not registered, is she registerable.?
3) Do you have any proof of parentage?
I'd make damn sure I knew the registration requirements and
procedures and I'd ask appropriate questions.
> As for people wanting proof that she is half Friesian, I can
> understand this as well. There are alot of people trying to pass off
> anything black and remotely hairy as a "Friesian cross". I am
> directly involved with the FSA, and you wouldn't believe some of the
> sad situations we encounter, from buyers who discover they've been
> lied to and their horse isn't really registered, or eligible for
> registration, or approved for breeding, or isn't even the cross it was
I checked the FHH site and it has very good information on
registration, DNA testing etc. Very clear (good on them) and
a number to call if you need help. Information is good protection
against dishonest sellers.
> supposed to be, and so forth, the list goes on..... The worst are
> probably the people who buy breeding stock only to learn it will never
> be eligible to be approved for breeding, or the people who buy a horse
> because it is supposed to be a specific cross, only to learn it is
> something else.
Huh? People buy breeding stock without making sure it is
eligible for a approval in a registry that requires approval?
You have *got* to be kidding me.
>
> This is all just a long way of saying, I don't blame buyers for asking
> questions. I wouldn't take it personally. It's just that alot of
> dishonest sellers (and internet scammers) have made buyers wary.
> There really are dishonest sellers out there, and "buyer beware" is
> good advice...
Yes, but the woman in cindi's post sounds not like a questioner
but an absolute nutcase. She wasn't getting the answers she
wanted so she just kept after Cindi.
wjka...@gmail.com
wrote:
I would agree with you if it was July, 2005. But it's July, 2009.
Unemployment is bumping 10%. Federal deficits are now measured in
Trillions of dollars. Real estate prices continue to decline. The
Federal government is becoming the largest private employer in the
country. Anyone thinking in 2005 terms in the face of these facts is
simply living in the past. Or maybe has been living a cave for the
last few years.
I REALLY wish that 2005 prices still held (I've got some nice foals
for sale). But they don't. And I don't see any recovery in the near
to medium term (and maybe not in the long term).
At the highest end of some equine sports the price levels are not so
bad, but once you leave those elite levels the decline has been
dramatic and continues.
The filly in quesiton is nice enough, but not my thing. I hope Cindi
finds a buyer willing to pay a reasonable price.
It might, at this time, be well to review the definintiono of Fair
Markey Value: That's what a willing, but uncompelled seller will take
from a willing, but uncompelled, buyer. The definition is constant.
The dollar figure will rise and fall with events.
cindi
> Yes, but the woman in cindi's post sounds not like a questioner
> but an absolute nutcase. She wasn't getting the answers she
> wanted so she just kept after Cindi.
I definitely don't mind people wanting paperwork, wanting time for a
vet check, wanting to see a bill of sale, etc. But in THIS case,
there isn't any of that, right now, so if you want that, then this is
not the deal for you... I couldn't believe she just didn't say "OK
thanks anyway" but instead just went on and on about how unfair it is
for me to advertise a horse on the internet when I can't supply her
with all the things she wants. My idea is look, at this price, this
is the way it's going to go down, and if you don't like it, move
along. ;-)
I got two more calls for full blooded Friesians this afternoon. I
might change her stuff to make it more obvious but I am running out of
time so I might not. Maybe when I get back...
take care all
cindi
cindi
> I have decided that I would
> take up doing donkey acts in Tijuana for a living before I'd take up horse
> trading.
Sounds like a great plan...
It used to be really fun, my first few years. I don't know what made
it worse, additional knowledge on my part such that I cringe over
things I didn't used to notice, or arrogance (they won't have as good
a home there as they do here), I don't know what. It seems like I've
had a run on people who are not as good of riders as they purport, and
I do ask about lessons and riding history and if they are working with
a trainer etc. The last two folks who came out assured me they are
very experienced and have been riding for years and that they are
looking for a horse for an advanced rider, yet neither one were very
good riders, nor were they good on the ground at all.
I entertain the thought of showing horses only to people who bring
their instructors with them, but it's hard enough to sell horses as it
is, and the times people have brought instructors it hasn't actually
gone any better, in general. I had that incident a few years ago
where the gal was clearly not ready for this horse, but the instructor
said she'd have the horse in training with her while she had lessons,
which would be cool, but then for the trial ride the instructor
suddenly told the gal to lope and the ride wasn't going the greatest
up to that point (bad seat, bad hands, slipping back lower leg,
leaning forward, etc etc etc) and the gal fell off. So I hate having
an instructor here also because then there is divided authority, me or
her. And if I step in and say NO, don't do that, then it offends
people and makes them think I'm a nut... So it's just rather
difficult.
Another funny story I think I posted before. When we first got Casper
he was WAY too much horse and we decided to just resell him. He was
showing in working cowhorse and was very sensitive and spooky and
fast. Well a gal called who'd been riding for 12 years with some
local big time reining trainer who I won't name, but let's just say
he's very bigtime, world renowned, and she was a bit offended that I'd
question her ability due to that experience, so I was trying to be
tactful... Well when she went to mount him, I guess she misjudged -
he's only 13.3 - and she went flying right up and over him and landed
on the ground on his right side. He spooked in place and snorted and
gave her the big what are you doing down there eye, and she exclaimed
"your horse bucked me off!" I got to retort, "Uh, I think you
actually have to have mounted the horse first before you can claim to
be bucked off..."
Thankfully those are my only two people falling off my sale horses
stories... I dread it though. Maybe I should require people to be in
lessons, and/or to first ride one of my dead broke lesson horses so I
can evaluate their skills. Offensive again, maybe... I dunno. It's a
pain. ;-)
That donkey act sounds pretty enticing!
cindi
JC Dill
> The last two folks who came out assured me they are
> very experienced and have been riding for years and that they are
> looking for a horse for an advanced rider, yet neither one were very
> good riders, nor were they good on the ground at all.
There are a lot of riders with 10 year's riding experience, then there
are a lot more that have 1 year's experience, repeated 10 times - in
other words they don't know anything more than what they learned in
their first year (not much).
jc
redbranch
>
> There are a lot of riders with 10 year's riding experience, then there
> are a lot more that have 1 year's experience, repeated 10 times - in
> other words they don't know anything more than what they learned in
> their first year (not much).
>
> jc
Ain't that the truth!
I hear it all the time... they say "but I've had horses for 30
years"....and I reply that I know lots of people who've been driving a
car for 30 years, too...doesn't mean they're good drivers, or that
they know anything at all about cars.
Sharon Potter
Red Branch
Sue Leopold
> -- Yep. Exactly my philosophy as well. Which is why I said it depends upon
> the market. There is a market for this horse at this price and it is people
> like you and me and I don't think we're alone.
Of course not. I'm glad there are good homes for nice horses.
You sure don't reach the seats every time you swing the bat. ;-)
But as a breeder, if i am not hitting the high end competitive market
most of the time, I'd consider my breeding program a failure.
>
> My Friesian x was advertised for less than Liebe. He was marked down from
> $6,500. I admit that I asked the seller right away what was wrong with him,
$6500 is about the minimum you can get for a yearling and still make
a little money. Not very much.
$1800 would not even get a foal on the ground for me let alone raise
it to a yearling. Stud fees for good sport horse stallions are high.
CC's sire stands for $1200, pretty much a mid-range price for a
sporthorse. Your $1800 or less (my gawd, was Damascus' breeder
that desperate?) would not even pay for the attendent vet fees to
get and check the mare safely. I can't see how Friesians would
be cheaper.
That's for fresh chilled semen. Frozen, primarliy due to the
protocal that should be followed, raises the costs much, much
higher.
I don't know of one high-end breeder who would discount a high
end horse that far. Not one. Usually if they cannot get them sold
as babies and yearlings they retain them and have them started
under saddle.
>friend and took wonderful care of him on the journey. And he is a
>wonderful,
> beautiful horse. I think he will suit our needs just fine for dressage.
> Moves and looks even better in person. My trainer laughs at how I step in
> @#$%$% going on instinct, but I usually do okay with my gambles. I have
Nina and I rolled the dice on Cruiser. We selected him on the basis of
a video and two rides by Donal on a neon green horse (three rides
when Donal rode him in Ireland) Nina liked the video, kept saying
there is something about this horse. I am an anal bloodline nutjob,
remembered Touchdown and Cruising and found out that the horse
had three international level jumpers within the first three generations
of his pedigree. (There was a reason Shane Breen gave 10,000 Euros
for this horse as a yearling.) We paid a decent price for him, he wasn't
cheap but it was less than we would have paid for a horse in this
country. It certainly was no where near $1800 so I suppose in your
opinion we were ripped off <joke> . Finally, at Vermont last year after
a Level 5 class I looked at Donal and said "We stole this horse." ;-)
> four wonderful horses. I would have bought Liebe if I wanted another cross
> and another filly notwithstanding the video, because at that price to me she
> is worth it. She clearly looks like a Friesian/TB cross to me, I'd not be
> worried about parentage, and I like her gaits (I think the canter was just
As a former breeder, it would sure mean a lot to me. I was taught
early on that horses perform to their blood. But I wouldn't fuss at
Cindi about getting the paperwork in such short order - I'd ask for
the contact info for the breeder and stallion owner and make sure
everything was in order to proceed with the registration process
and if it was, then buy the filly. I think the person inquiring was
completely out of line.
But maybe it is that we are pretty divergent in what we are looking
for in a horse. I still have this stupid little dream of having a hand
in developing an international-level horse. Liebe and Damascus
are nice, but they aren't going to get me there. CC, OTOH... She
makes my heart go pitter-patter. Not that Eileen is going to sell
her though! Nor would I.
Jane Saranac
"Sue Leopold" <svle...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1j34dlo.1ds36az1nmd1gwN%svle...@earthlink.net...
> Jane Saranac <jsala...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> -- Yep. Exactly my philosophy as well. Which is why I said it depends
>> upon
>> the market. There is a market for this horse at this price and it is
>> people
>> like you and me and I don't think we're alone.
>
> Of course not. I'm glad there are good homes for nice horses.
> You sure don't reach the seats every time you swing the bat. ;-)
> But as a breeder, if i am not hitting the high end competitive market
> most of the time, I'd consider my breeding program a failure.
But cindi has said that she is not breeding any longer, and she really
didn't do much breeding in the past, and you are seeking a horse that will
sell on an international level. Apples and oranges.
>>
>> My Friesian x was advertised for less than Liebe. He was marked down
>> from
>> $6,500. I admit that I asked the seller right away what was wrong with
>> him,
>
> $6500 is about the minimum you can get for a yearling and still make
> a little money. Not very much.
>
> $1800 would not even get a foal on the ground for me let alone raise
> it to a yearling. Stud fees for good sport horse stallions are high.
> CC's sire stands for $1200
As did Harlee's. But D's breeder owns his sire as well as dam, so there
were no stud fees. She bred her stallion about 30 times so I am guessing
she has it down to a science. But more important as Bill noted, the driving
reason for D's mom to sell cheaply was market bottoming out. The price of
hay doubled and the price of yearlings halved or quartered and she had too
many on the ground. Believe me she wasn't happy about reducing the price but
she had to, to responsibly keep her farm going. She sold several off and the
remaining she is holding onto.
> That's for fresh chilled semen. Frozen, primarliy due to the
> protocal that should be followed, raises the costs much, much
> higher.
>
> I don't know of one high-end breeder who would discount a high
> end horse that far. Not one.
If by high end you mean "ordinarily asks and gets a decent amount of money
for the horse"
then I know of a couple already. If you mean international level, we are
talking apples and oranges, again.
But let's not forget that "private treaty" helps people not find out what
high end breeders actually reduce to in a bad market : ).
>
>
> Nina and I rolled the dice on Cruiser. We selected him on the basis of
> a video and two rides by Donal on a neon green horse (three rides
> when Donal rode him in Ireland) Nina liked the video, kept saying
> there is something about this horse. I am an anal bloodline nutjob,
> remembered Touchdown and Cruising and found out that the horse
> had three international level jumpers within the first three generations
> of his pedigree. (There was a reason Shane Breen gave 10,000 Euros
> for this horse as a yearling.) We paid a decent price for him, he wasn't
> cheap but it was less than we would have paid for a horse in this
> country. It certainly was no where near $1800 so I suppose in your
> opinion we were ripped off <joke> .
Nah... you were buying him for resale to a specific market that warranted
paying more. I was buying Harlee and Damascus for personal use so what I
could sell them for I could care less about. And I paid three times as much
for Harlee as for Damascus but it was before the market dropped and because
she is a "purebred" App with good bloodlines and papers and is a mare who
could breed down the road.
>
> But maybe it is that we are pretty divergent in what we are looking
> for in a horse.
Exactly. I.E., different markets.
Ocean of Nuance
(snip)
> But maybe it is that we are pretty divergent in what we are looking
> for in a horse. I still have this stupid little dream of having a hand
> in developing an international-level horse.
Some people stumble into it. I knew a woman who owned (but traded) the
jumper Singapore who she said was an international horse. Was there a
horse of that name on the international scene?
I knew her in the early 1970s.
sharon
Sue Leopold
> As did Harlee's. But D's breeder owns his sire as well as dam, so there
> were no stud fees. She bred her stallion about 30 times so I am guessing
> she has it down to a science. But more important as Bill noted, the driving
> reason for D's mom to sell cheaply was market bottoming out. The price of
> hay doubled and the price of yearlings halved or quartered and she had too
> many on the ground. Believe me she wasn't happy about reducing the price but
> she had to, to responsibly keep her farm going. She sold several off and the
> remaining she is holding onto.
The stud fee is the cheapest part of the equation. You should see a
typical reproductive services vet bill. Your hair would stand on end
and the kicker is that usually you get to pay it over and over again.
The mare is not an easy animal to settle. Not at all.
See this makes me sad. She's obviously a successful breeder; I
can well imagine it did not make her happy to sacrifice them. At
least she was able to find Harlee a good, responsible home. That
does not always happen.
> If by high end you mean "ordinarily asks and gets a decent amount of money
> for the horse"
> then I know of a couple already. If you mean international level, we are
> talking apples and oranges, again.
I am talking about high level sport horses, including hunters who
have the raw ability to compete at the highest level of their
disciplines, not just get a decent amount of money. Those are
not high end horses to me.
> But let's not forget that "private treaty" helps people not find out what
> high end breeders actually reduce to in a bad market : ).
Well, I know a few. I know what they are getting for horses. I also know
what Shane Breen gave for Cruiser as a yearling. He was not cheap.
The ones that are sold for sacrifice prices usually have a physical
issue that affects their value.
> Nah... you were buying him for resale to a specific market that warranted
> paying more. I was buying Harlee and Damascus for personal use so what I
> could sell them for I could care less about. And I paid three times as much
> for Harlee as for Damascus but it was before the market dropped and because
> she is a "purebred" App with good bloodlines and papers and is a mare who
> could breed down the road.
She also has siblings who are out there competing at pretty high levels
yes?
I like Harlee a lot, I think you stole her <joke> and you can pretty
much pick what you want to do with her and go far.
Sue Leopold
it's not ringing any bells but that doesn't mean anything. He
could be a very well known jumper but ended up having his
name changed.
Yes, it does happen. Horses end up in weird situations all
the time. See Poggio (Amy Tryon) for one example. But it's
a lot easier to locate a horse that was bred for the sport
especially these days with very well-established bloodlines,
nicks and objective methods of measuring accomplishments.
(That goes for dressage as well.) Jumping ability is pretty
heritable, somewhat surprisingly it is more predictable than
speed. If i want to do this before I die, it makes sense for me
to research the bloodlines and performance records and start
that way. Besides, I am an admitted bloodline geek. I enjoy
researching this stuff. Some people knit for relaxation, I look
at pedigrees. LOL.
I cut my equestrian teeth on this stuff. I've known Carol Lush
(Mapleside Farms) for decades. I remember walking into her
house and finding mixed sale catalogs all over the kitchen
table. Long before sport horse breeding was established in
this country she was doing it. She would research the bloodlines
of established grand prix horses - in those days it was prob.
90 percent Thoroughbred horses - and then find close
relatives going through the Tb sales. She found:
Full sister to Albany, Leslie Burr Howard's mount in the 94 Olympics
Full sister to Chase The Clouds, Howard again, international jumper
7/8ths sister to The Jones Boy, Katie Monahan Prudent, international
jumper.
Among others, including show hunters as well
She also bought a share in Galoubet, who was the first jumper
stallion to be syndicated in the US and bred him to her mares.
One of Doris Ragland's (Albany's sister) - a great name - was
Galouway who was a Grand Prix horse in his own right. The
great mare U Cloud's Gala who founded a substantial line
of jumping fools :-) was a daughter of Minnie Do (sister to
Chase The Clouds and "the only horse I ever cried over")
She is a shining example of breeding sporthorses on a budget -
believe me, she did not have Mary Alice Malone's bankroll.
Not even close. Hell not even in the same universe. ;-)
I am passionate about this. :-)
Eileen Morgan
> Sue Leopold wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>> But maybe it is that we are pretty divergent in what we are looking
>> for in a horse. I still have this stupid little dream of having a hand
>> in developing an international-level horse.
I know a nice little TB mare who puts a really nice baby on the ground
who might be negotiable for a breeding lease with the right people . . .
=8-0
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest (PA)
http://www.themaresnest.com
Sue Leopold
> Ocean of Nuance wrote:
> > Sue Leopold wrote:
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> >> But maybe it is that we are pretty divergent in what we are looking
> >> for in a horse. I still have this stupid little dream of having a hand
> >> in developing an international-level horse.
>
> I know a nice little TB mare who puts a really nice baby on the ground
> who might be negotiable for a breeding lease with the right people . . .
> =8-0
Temptress!!!
Seriously, that mare is right up at the top of any prospective
broodmare list. The only thing standing in my way is money.
As does it to us all.
Jennifer Meyer-Mahoney
"Sue Leopold" <svle...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1j34dlo.1ds36az1nmd1gwN%svle...@earthlink.net...
>
>> -- Yep. Exactly my philosophy as well. Which is why I said it depends
>> upon
>> the market. There is a market for this horse at this price and it is
>> people
>> like you and me and I don't think we're alone.
>
> Of course not. I'm glad there are good homes for nice horses.
> You sure don't reach the seats every time you swing the bat. ;-)
> But as a breeder, if i am not hitting the high end competitive market
> most of the time, I'd consider my breeding program a failure.
>>
>> My Friesian x was advertised for less than Liebe. He was marked down
>> from
>> $6,500. I admit that I asked the seller right away what was wrong with
>> him,
>
> $6500 is about the minimum you can get for a yearling and still make
> a little money. Not very much.
If you aren't growing your own hay, these days that's the break even price
on a weaner, not a yearling. From the time I bred my first (11 years ago) to
today the price of hay, grain, and bedding has doubled. The farrier has gone
from $18 per trim to $45. The vet's call fees have gone from $10 to $45 and
the price of services has doubled.
>
> $1800 would not even get a foal on the ground for me let alone raise
> it to a yearling. Stud fees for good sport horse stallions are high.
> CC's sire stands for $1200, pretty much a mid-range price for a
> sporthorse. Your $1800 or less (my gawd, was Damascus' breeder
> that desperate?) would not even pay for the attendent vet fees to
> get and check the mare safely. I can't see how Friesians would
> be cheaper.
>
> That's for fresh chilled semen. Frozen, primarliy due to the
> protocal that should be followed, raises the costs much, much
> higher.
Ironically now that everyone charges for collection for the fresh cooled
($250 to $400 per collection depending on the stallion) and dictates what
days of the week they will collect and ship and some stallions want you to
committ to a collection date months in advance it was actually cheaper and
easier to breed with frozen the last time I bred...3 seasons ago.
Particularly now that wet shippers will keep frozen semen for up to 4 weeks
if you don't open them you can keep the frozen on the farm and breed when
the mare is ready rather than trying to short cycle to catch the collection
schedule.
Judy let me pick up the wet shipper with the frozen semen 2 weeks before we
thought the mare would ovulate, because she was going to be traveling. The
vet checked Candy a week before we planned to short cycle her and said well
she's a breed today too bad we can't catch this cycle to which I responded
sure we can the semen is in the tack room. You do have to breed them twice
with the frozen, trying for 12 hours before ovulation and 12 hours after but
we do that with fresh cooled when we can as well. We got her in foal on the
first try with the frozen and I dropped the shipper back at Windyridge. It
took 3 tries with the fresh cooled to get the other mare in foal which was
way more expensive.
My vet bills when breeding 2 mares ran $5000 to $7500 per year if everything
went right, and no one got sick or injured or had a problem. The last year
with no babies needing foal shots and no breeding and everyone healthy my
vet bills have been $750. My vet tells me that most of his small time
breeders are on hiatus until the economy recovers so while he was more
rested this spring than he has ever been he is definitely seeing the change
in his bottom line.
Jennifer
Cricket
"Tamara in TN" <CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET> wrote in message
news:5512d239-499c-46f5...@g31g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
who knows
Tamara in TN
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Yeah, but my friend with the riding stable gets that kind of crap over $600
horses...though only once per customer... <BEG>
These are the same people who get pissed that I can't shoe their
Quarterhorse so it gaits, or their Walker so it doesn't, or to fix the fact
that it keeps picking up the wrong lead in the show ring (but swaps every
other stride in the pasture when it's playing).
I've fired more than one customer, and I'm sure I'll do it again. Some of
them bad-mouth me. Good. They are the sort that always have to throw in
the gory details, and by the time they're done talking, anyone I'd want as a
customer knows they're full of crap, so I don't lose anyone I'd want anyway.
If I actually screwed up and they did their part and notified me and gave me
a chance to fix it, I did, admitted my error, and we're usually still
working together. It's the times I *didn't* screw up ('cause you can't make
pigs fly) that they're running around spouting bizarre stories.
Cricket
Cricket
<wjka...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:chg7659th8akn6fcp...@4ax.com...
I go around with people about this every year. Around here, your basic
back-yard or 4-H horse is worth about three times as much in the spring as
in the late fall/winter. January through March you literally can't give him
away. People get all bent when they buy a horse for $1200 in April, decide
they don't like him in October (or the kid discovered boys, or whatever...),
and then get all insulted when they advertise him for $1400 ('cause they fed
him all summer, y'know) and no one bites except those offering $800.
"He's at least a $1200 horse!", they cry...uh, no, he's a $850 horse...in
another couple of months he's gonna be worth less than that. You can maybe
get $1200 in the spring again. Let's see - you've at minimum put another
$400 into him by then, way more if you're boarding. Yep, makes financial
sense to me...not.
Cricket
Cricket
"JC Dill" <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h40keg$p3c$1...@aioe.org...
Oh, yes...one of my long-term peeves. Even worse if they've owned a dozen
horses in that time...but it's been practical clones of the same old patient
plug they started with. Ten horses is more than most people ever own, so,
by deductive reasoning, they know more than most people, right?
I've mentioned before, several of my professional horseman type customers
(and me) have declared more than once lately that, had we to do it over now,
we'd never go into the horse business.
Cricket
Cricket
On Jul 19, 2:32 pm, "Cricket" <cricketc...@wmis.net> wrote:
>> I have decided that I would
>> take up doing donkey acts in Tijuana for a living before I'd take up
>> horse
> >trading.
>>
>>
>That donkey act sounds pretty enticing!
>
>cindi
Ummm...you do know what a donkey act in Tijuana implies, yes?
(Just checking, since I had a previous embarassing episode where I thought
this was common knowledge, and it wasn't. Let's just say the phrase
traveled back to folks who...didn't need to hear it... ;>)
Cricket
Grizzly
on one of the bestiality newsgroups...I'm backing away from the keyboard
now..
Hunter Hampton
wrote:
>Ummm...you do know what a donkey act in Tijuana implies, yes?
>
>(Just checking, since I had a previous embarassing episode where I thought
>this was common knowledge, and it wasn't. Let's just say the phrase
>traveled back to folks who...didn't need to hear it... ;>)
LOL!
Hunter
cindi
> "cindi" <allisonac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:bae6e206-e1a8-45f0...@d15g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 19, 2:32 pm, "Cricket" <cricketc...@wmis.net> wrote:
>
> >> I have decided that I would
> >> take up doing donkey acts in Tijuana for a living before I'd take up
> >> horse
> > >trading.
>
> >That donkey act sounds pretty enticing!
>
> >cindi
>
> Ummm...you do know what a donkey act in Tijuana implies, yes?
Absolutely. :-)
And like you say, pretty much anything is better than selling
horses...
It seems enticing to me because I have a MINI donkey, so it can't be
that bad. ;-)
>
> (Just checking, since I had a previous embarassing episode where I thought
> this was common knowledge, and it wasn't. Let's just say the phrase
> traveled back to folks who...didn't need to hear it... ;>)
Yeah, that's like the "around the world" I have the kids do on on the
horse. Sometimes the parents perk up a bit when they hear me use that
phrase...
cindi
Madeline Rockwell
> Ocean of Nuance <lizRMOVz...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Sue Leopold wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> > But maybe it is that we are pretty divergent in what we are looking
>> > for in a horse. I still have this stupid little dream of having a hand
>> > in developing an international-level horse.
>>
>> Some people stumble into it. I knew a woman who owned (but traded) the
>> jumper Singapore who she said was an international horse. Was there a
>> horse of that name on the international scene?
>>
>> I knew her in the early 1970s.
>>
>> sharon
>
> it's not ringing any bells but that doesn't mean anything. He
> could be a very well known jumper but ended up having his
> name changed.
>
> Yes, it does happen. Horses end up in weird situations all
> the time. See Poggio (Amy Tryon) for one example.
Another example is Charles Atlas-Charlie Grey-Uncle Max. Circa 1965.
My brother found this skinny grey horse jumping convertibles at the Cowtown
(NJ) Rodeo. My parents bought him, and fattened him up. He could jump the
moon, but was way too loopy to be a field hunter and not nearly TB enough to
be a steeplechase horse, so we traded him to our dry cleaner for cleaning.
(Lots of cleaning). As Charlie Grey he was successful as a green jumper (
this was before there were levels) and in the open division. He could (and
did)bounce 24' combinations until they got to open heights. Then Neil
Shapiro bought him and as Uncle Max, he was backup horse to Sloopy of
Olympic fame and had a nice international career of his own.. He was
eventually sold to Ted Edgar (GB) and won the King George & QE Gold Cup.He's
still one of very few international level jumpers we exported to Europe.
Hard to imagine that this horse was purpose bred for anything, but he had
the talent, the longevity and the physical soundness. He was always a bit
mental, but was lucky enough to land in his niche. It is a long, but not
impossible, route from Cowtown to Aachen...
madeline
wjka...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
Indeed. And the phrase "dog and pony show" has nothing to do with
equestrian or canine competions. :-)
Joyleen E. Seymour
> After listening to her, and sometimes being there while she's dealing with
> people, plus being on the receiving end of a lot of forwarded emails (can
> people that stupid *really* use a computer??), I have decided that I would
> take up doing donkey acts in Tijuana for a living before I'd take up horse
> trading.
>
> Cricket
After thinking over what donkey acts in Tijuana probably involve, this
is all I can say - =8-0
Una
Una
Tamara in TN
> Now I am curious... What *does* it entail? (heh heh)
>
> Una
ummmm....
looking for love in all the wrong places...
Tamara in TN
Judie
Yeah sounds like our mini Pip. He wants so badly to service Pixie who
is over 16h. (So glad Axl is not interested).
Judie
JC Dill
> The stud fee is the cheapest part of the equation. You should see a
> typical reproductive services vet bill. Your hair would stand on end
> and the kicker is that usually you get to pay it over and over again.
> The mare is not an easy animal to settle. Not at all.
I had no problems with all-but-one mare during the years that I owned
and stood my stallion Khai. I had just ONE mare that wouldn't settle -
I later discovered that she wouldn't settle for her prior owner - he
didn't disclose this to me before he sold me the mare.
We didn't have all the reproductive tests available back then - we
didn't do biopsies, AI was just starting to be used, embryo transfer
hadn't been developed. I bred all my mares live cover, most were
covered "in hand" and then left in with the stallion for him to pasture
breed for the remainder of their heat cycle.
Peggy got in foal with Venus on just 1 cover. (She was too tall for
Khai to pasture breed.) Khai was 27 at the time, and Peggy was in her
teens, and they weren't able to get her in foal following her prior foal
(she got infected after giving birth). I had my vet do a culture and
she was clean, I didn't bother with a biopsy, covered her "in hand" (had
to build a bank for Khai to stand on, standing her in a ditch didn't
work!), and 11 1/2 months later I had Venus. Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy.
I think the reason mares are generally "hard to settle" is because of
our mis-management. We treat our stallions like they are made of glass
and we can't possibly let them cover a mare naturally. The TB industry
palpates and palpates (and I guess they use ultrasound now) to try to
pinpoint the ideal time to cover the mare, to reduce the number of
covers "necessary" to settle the mare. They also try to breed mares in
February and March when mares don't naturally cycle. So duh, they have
a poor percentage of mares that deliver a live foal.
With AI we have similar problems, again with all the palpations and
ultrasounds to try to pinpoint the "ideal" time to inseminate, along
with numerous problems in getting semen to the mare (shipping delays,
poor handling resulting in reduced motility or dead semen, etc.).
These problems are just like the problems we have with stabled horses
colicking, getting ulcers, etc. We keep them in stalls and feed them
too much grain, and they develop problems they simply don't get when
they are kept "stabled" outside, on appropriate pasture.
Mother Nature really does know best in many ways.
jc
Cricket
Absolutely. :-)
cindi
I once had a rose bush which was named, I swear to God, "Golden Showers".
It was gorgeous, everyone wanted to know what it was.
I hated that damn bush.
Cricket
Cricket
<wjka...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ssn96517fs8e6muin...@4ax.com...
I was orignally going to use that one, but it's picked up enough secondary
meanings that it's sort of lost it's sting... ;>D
Cricket
Cricket
"Judie" <judie.m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:daf66548-6d83-4bd9...@i4g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
Judie
Hey, at least they share a species...
Cricket
Sue Leopold
> I had no problems with all-but-one mare during the years that I owned
> and stood my stallion Khai. I had just ONE mare that wouldn't settle -
> I later discovered that she wouldn't settle for her prior owner - he
> didn't disclose this to me before he sold me the mare.
>
> We didn't have all the reproductive tests available back then - we
> didn't do biopsies, AI was just starting to be used, embryo transfer
> hadn't been developed. I bred all my mares live cover, most were
> covered "in hand" and then left in with the stallion for him to pasture
> breed for the remainder of their heat cycle.
<snip>
i agree with some of what you wrote jc, but while all our mares
were bred with live cover (Tbs - them's the rules and Falke's
owner preferred to use live cover when possible) there were
still difficulties. Part of it is mares are evaluated every which
way but Sunday except for fertility. Breeders who move heaven
and earth to get that special mare in foal are inadvertantly
selecting against fertile mares.
Most repro specialists these days advocate limiting covers, be it
live or via Memorex ;-) (AI) because research indicates that
semen itself causes and inflammatory response in the mare and
that is bad, bad, bad for conceptus. And despite protestations
from mare owners, the extender used in AI shipments actually
counteracts the inflammatory effects of the semen.
> I think the reason mares are generally "hard to settle" is because of
> our mis-management. We treat our stallions like they are made of glass
i disagree with this statement. I do not consider practices
developed via research at major universities to be "mis-
management."
> and we can't possibly let them cover a mare naturally. The TB industry
The primary reason for the use of AI is to allow a stallion a wider
geographical range of mares he is available to as well as to
minimize risk to the stallion, mare and handlers. But the
primary reason is purely an economic decision.
> palpates and palpates (and I guess they use ultrasound now) to try to
Every decent repro vet I know uses ultrasound to pinpoint ovulation
and does not rely simply on palpation though uterine edema is
a good benchmark for impending ovulation.
> pinpoint the ideal time to cover the mare, to reduce the number of
> covers "necessary" to settle the mare. They also try to breed mares in
Reducing the number of covers for each mare is necessary for
a stallion with a large book and is important in minimizing the
amount of inflammation post-breeding.
> February and March when mares don't naturally cycle. So duh, they have
> a poor percentage of mares that deliver a live foal.
There is no special rate of infertility specific to Tbs that I know.
>
> With AI we have similar problems, again with all the palpations and
> ultrasounds to try to pinpoint the "ideal" time to inseminate, along
> with numerous problems in getting semen to the mare (shipping delays,
> poor handling resulting in reduced motility or dead semen, etc.).
Stallions available for AI are generally on specific collection
schedules so that is one reason to pinpoint ovulation. The
other is economic - the mare owner pays a fee for each collection
and shipment over and above the stud fee - this can add up
rather quickly. In addition, mare owners who choose to breed
to a stallion who is actively competing may have to manipulate
their mare's cycle to accomodate the stallion's schedule.
I don't consider this mis-management, it is just the way it
is and in order to have access to the widest range of stallions
those are the rules you have to play under.
> Mother Nature really does know best in many ways.
That has not been my experience. If we had relied on
Mother Nature for Callie, who twinned (many Tb mares
will twin) we would likely never had a live foal and a
very good chance of losing the mare to a twin birth.
I'm not willing to take those chances and prefer to
leverage science in such matters. As I've said before
I like to stack the deck in my favor.
For a really good site on equine reproduction that keeps
up with modern research go to www.equine-reproduction.com
redbranch
course on AI and Frozen Semen), told us that the primary problem with
getting mares to settle had to do with one thing: Lack of exposure
to a stallion.
By that he meant regular teasing and being around a stud (in addition,
of course, to actually being bred). It was his feeling that it helped
a mare come into a strong and healthier cycle. He told us that mares
who have never been around a stallion and don't get teased tend to be
harder to settle, via natural or artificial means. He felt the
"foreplay" and interaction between mare and stud has much to do with
the entire reproductive process.
Sharon Potter
Red Branch
JC Dill
> JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think the reason mares are generally "hard to settle" is because of
>> our mis-management. We treat our stallions like they are made of glass
>
> i disagree with this statement. I do not consider practices
> developed via research at major universities to be "mis-
> management."
To a man with a hammer in his hand, every problem looks like a nail.
The research at major universities is not geared towards "discovering"
that sometimes nature knows best. The research is always geared towards
"what can we do?" about a problem.
Take 100 horses, 10 studs and 90 mares, and by random lot assign half of
them (5 studs, 45 mares) to a university, and let me have the other half
as the "control" and I bet I can settle more mares faster and with fewer
vet bills than the "professionals" can.
> There is no special rate of infertility specific to Tbs that I know.
The breeders I know (not TB breeders) have had much better success at
putting foals on the ground than the TB average (less than 65% of bred
mares deliver a live foal). Most have better than 90% success rates.
My own success rate was 20 foals, 1 barren mare, a 95% success rate. I
had 1 mare come into heat a second time and take on the second heat -
the rest all settled on the first heat.
> Stallions available for AI are generally on specific collection
> schedules so that is one reason to pinpoint ovulation.
I know. It's for the convenience of their owners/riders/handlers.
Just like we keep horses in stalls for the convenience of
owners/riders/handlers.
The
> other is economic - the mare owner pays a fee for each collection
> and shipment over and above the stud fee - this can add up
> rather quickly. In addition, mare owners who choose to breed
> to a stallion who is actively competing may have to manipulate
> their mare's cycle to accomodate the stallion's schedule.
>
> I don't consider this mis-management, it is just the way it
> is and in order to have access to the widest range of stallions
> those are the rules you have to play under.
And it's part of why live foal delivery rates are so low, and the vet
costs are so high. This is the trade-off. Would you rather have a live
foal from a local stallion, or ship your mare to a distant stallion, or
have lower live-foal odds from using shipped semen? Most people don't
think about these choices, or these odds, when they select a stallion.
Eileen has had several very nice fillies, but I sure don't envy her vet
bills getting Belles, Rain, and CC on the ground. For what she pays (on
average) to settle a single mare, I could have covered my total vet
bills for several years for my entire herd (7 adults, plus foals). I'm
not saying her way is wrong, just glad that my way worked for me and
cost a whole lot less. :-)
>> Mother Nature really does know best in many ways.
>
> That has not been my experience. If we had relied on
> Mother Nature for Callie, who twinned (many Tb mares
> will twin) we would likely never had a live foal and a
> very good chance of losing the mare to a twin birth.
I agree that a preg check ~14 days post-breeding is a good idea, to
check for and reduce a twin pregnancy, if one occurs.
OTOH, successful twin pregnancies are not nearly as rare as the "scare
statistics" claim. The scare statistics compare successful twin births
as a fraction of *all* births, not as a fraction of *twin* births.
Because twin births are very rare all by themselves, successful twin
births are also very rare. Also, there's a fair bit of evidence that
many early twin pregnancies are "self reduced" by the mare, so the high
incidence of twin pregnancies found by early post-breeding exams and
"reduced" to a single pregnancy results in many mare owners panicking at
the thought of their mare's chances of a catastrophic twin pregnancy,
when the odds aren't as high as it might seem. (This doesn't mean it's
a good idea to allow a mare to have twins. I'm just talking about the
difference between the real statistics and the bogus and scare
statistics most people have read. Very few people really understand
statistics and are easily fooled or manipulated by bogus statistics.)
> For a really good site on equine reproduction that keeps
> up with modern research go to www.equine-reproduction.com
I was on the equine-repro list for quite a few years.
jc
Eileen Morgan
> Eileen has had several very nice fillies, but I sure don't envy her vet
> bills getting Belles, Rain, and CC on the ground. For what she pays (on
> average) to settle a single mare, I could have covered my total vet
> bills for several years for my entire herd (7 adults, plus foals). I'm
> not saying her way is wrong, just glad that my way worked for me and
> cost a whole lot less. :-)
You might be overestimating my costs a bit there.
Belles was spendy only if you count the fact that Callie lost didn't
settle the first year and then lost her pregnancy the second year (Bard
was easy peasy, one breeding, settled, 11 months and there he was--I
think he cost me about 2k to get on the ground). Delilah, Belle's mom,
caught on the first breeding and had 10 uneventful months before Belles
arrived; I bought her in foal at 5 months pregnant after Callie lost
hers. The stud owner set it up--Belles has two full siblings, one with
her prior owner (colt) and another bred by the stud owner and sold on
(filly looks exactly like Belles but is dappled bay). If you count my
costs with Belles mama only, I got her for 2500.00 in foal and paid for
nothing but shots and a post foaling exam. Belles sure would cost me a
lot more than that to have purchased! Had I been able to sell the mare
at the price I was asking (which was reasonable, given the work I put
into her under saddle, her age, and the work she did with my coach
competing with kids at the eventing barn) I would have recouped her
purchase price and paid off all costs related to her own foaling out
plus a little. Instead, of course, I lost her to neuro rhino in the
horrid outbreak that hit Pleasant Hollow, where she was living while
being part leased by one of Jane's child students.
Moonlight was easy to get in foal and hard to keep there, which is why
she cost more before we cottoned onto it and did Regumate. I worked out
that including board at the stud farm and all breeding costs, Rain took
me about 4k to get on the ground. She's certainly worth much more than
that.
Dancer was pretty easy, once the vet bred her on the correct day for her
ovulation (2nd try). She caught on her first breeding the two times
before, as I understand it (I also have her vet records for the second
breeding, which had to have been frozen since stud is in Denmark). We
had that heat wave and she was not interested in ovulating during it,
but then, my vet said not one mare was ovulating in that weather, so I
can hardly blame Dancer for being the same way. :-) I think including
cost of stud fee and all vet work (excluding cost of mare and feeding
her, since I was riding her and enjoying her also), CC cost me about 3k
to put on the ground. I could NOT buy her quality foal for that.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
Sue Leopold
> Take 100 horses, 10 studs and 90 mares, and by random lot assign half of
> them (5 studs, 45 mares) to a university, and let me have the other half
> as the "control" and I bet I can settle more mares faster and with fewer
> vet bills than the "professionals" can.
Wowie, that's an arrogant statement!
>
> > There is no special rate of infertility specific to Tbs that I know.
>
> The breeders I know (not TB breeders) have had much better success at
> putting foals on the ground than the TB average (less than 65% of bred
> mares deliver a live foal). Most have better than 90% success rates.
> My own success rate was 20 foals, 1 barren mare, a 95% success rate. I
> had 1 mare come into heat a second time and take on the second heat -
> the rest all settled on the first heat.
All bred to your stallion? That's not statistically significant and
you know it.
The plural of anecdote is not data as you well know.
> > Stallions available for AI are generally on specific collection
> > schedules so that is one reason to pinpoint ovulation.
>
> I know. It's for the convenience of their owners/riders/handlers.
Sure it's a choice.
> Just like we keep horses in stalls for the convenience of
> owners/riders/handlers.
So what? I have horses because I want to have them They
better damn well know how to live in a stall - there are no
pasture situations at any horse shows I know of. ;-)
> And it's part of why live foal delivery rates are so low, and the vet
> costs are so high. This is the trade-off. Would you rather have a live
> foal from a local stallion, or ship your mare to a distant stallion, or
> have lower live-foal odds from using shipped semen? Most people don't
> think about these choices, or these odds, when they select a stallion.
We bred mares for years shipping to a breeding farm, boarding
the mare until confirmed in foal sans twins via the dreaded
ultrasound. I'll grant you one thing - that's a cheaper way to
go. But it's not the most important criteria for me when selecting
a stallion. We bred Tbs and we wanted them registerable so
this is how we had to go. That was one of our breeding goals.
i want the stallion who suits my goals for my mares. I don't want
to be tied to geographic location. People have different goals
in breeding; limiting myself to stallions within easy driving
distance (I sure am not in favor of shipping neonatal foals
long distance) doesn't suit my goals. So yes, the extra
expense is worth it for me.
I select specifically for goals not for convenience or simple
economics.
> Eileen has had several very nice fillies, but I sure don't envy her vet
> bills getting Belles, Rain, and CC on the ground. For what she pays (on
> average) to settle a single mare, I could have covered my total vet
> bills for several years for my entire herd (7 adults, plus foals). I'm
> not saying her way is wrong, just glad that my way worked for me and
> cost a whole lot less. :-)
She wanted a RID stallion. She's *starting* with a fairly small
population. Limiting herself geographically might not have
found her a suitable stallion.'
You owned a herd stallion. Your situation is not analogous. But
even my friend who owns a stallion goes outside including
to frozen as well as cooled to bring new blood into her program.
She wanted Stedinger, she had to do frozen. And she can
AI her own with cooled so that was a big jump in expense
for her.
Carol Lush always had her own stallions but she always
also went outside her own stock to bring in what she considered
important blood for her breeding program. And if she had
eschewed transported semen and AI she never would have
introduced Galoubet and later Merano into her breeding
program - two of the biggest and most influential decisions
she made for it. But she has only been consistently on the
leader board for hunters and jumpers for the USEF for
decades and bred a successful Grand Prix horse from
her program All on a budget btw. But what does she know?
Only the mare owner can make that decision.
> OTOH, successful twin pregnancies are not nearly as rare as the "scare
> statistics" claim. The scare statistics compare successful twin births
> as a fraction of *all* births, not as a fraction of *twin* births.
> Because twin births are very rare all by themselves, successful twin
> births are also very rare. Also, there's a fair bit of evidence that
> many early twin pregnancies are "self reduced" by the mare, so the high
Our mare did reduce one twin pregnancy, the embryos were stuck
close together so pinching (preferable IME) was not an option. We
were early enough in the season to wait her out and see if she
reduced the pregnancy rather than terminating it.
> incidence of twin pregnancies found by early post-breeding exams and
> "reduced" to a single pregnancy results in many mare owners panicking at
> the thought of their mare's chances of a catastrophic twin pregnancy,
> when the odds aren't as high as it might seem. (This doesn't mean it's
> a good idea to allow a mare to have twins. I'm just talking about the
> difference between the real statistics and the bogus and scare
> statistics most people have read. Very few people really understand
> statistics and are easily fooled or manipulated by bogus statistics.)
jc, I was trained as a science and hold a bachelor of science degree
in Animql Science. I hardly think I fall into the rank of those who are
easily fooled by bogus statistics. Geesh.
> I was on the equine-repro list for quite a few years.
Not the same thing.
Sue Leopold
in by bogus statistics, who keep horses in stalls rather than in
pasture 24x7 which is evil and detrimental, our horses have
uniformly been sound, healthy and live to great ages as
healthy, stall-kept horses who even <gasp!> are asked to
compete and Stay In Confined Conditions at horse shows.
Oh the humanity!
In decades of keeping horses, quite a lot of them actually,
we have had a scant handful - probably no more than
three actually - of mild colics and one colic in a friend's
elderly Arab cross mare that led to euthanasia . Of course,
she had a strangulating lipoma so living outside or in
a stall would not have made much difference to her.
Cruiser was on 24x7 turnout for a few months at Donal's.
He liked it until the bugs got bad. Cruiser has thin skin,
he doesn't do bugz very well. He looked awful, was
not happy and lost a ton of condition. Not good for
a horse who is asked to do what he does. So he is now
out overnight and in during the day. That's called giving
the horse in front of you what it needs when it needs it.
Catja Pafort
> Even if
> you don't *want* to be in the horse trading business, with a riding stable
> you have to be, because it takes a very special kind of horse, and there is
> absolutely no way to know if they'll work 'til you've tried them for a month
> or so (well, some that *won't* work are pretty obvious right away - but even
> then, not always). So for every eight you buy, you end up selling six
> pretty quick, and the seventh before the end of the season, to get one good
> horse to put on the line. There is usually *nothing* wrong with the horse -
> it's just not right for a stable plug. Often it's *too* good, either over
> responsive, or just too nice to let a lot of amatuers up on.
Or you can try, y'know, training them.
The riding school I learnt in would sell the occasional horse, and did
sell occasional horses to people who loved them to pieces when it was
clear that the horse was slowing down and might no longer stand up to
the full workload.
The full workload, by the way, was between one and three hours a day,
every day, and only once in a blue moon more than two hours in a row.
The horses were never stood in the stable on rest/slow days, and they
were warmed up correctly, and this stable had a ton of horses over
twenty in full work and the odd over-thirty still doing light lessons.
They bought a mixture of horses - promising youngsters for advanced
riders (we had several horses schooled to 3rd level dressage, and
consequently had riders coming to the place to improve their dressage);
and opportunities - 16yo, never-backed broodmare, standardbred off the
track, pony that had wrecked one carriage too many, horse the owners
could not deal with - those were given a chance and mostly worked out.
They took their time to school those horses - first outside of lessons,
then during more advanced lessons, then as lead horse for beginner
lessons under an experienced rider. Depending on the horse, either staff
or very good students would be doing this. Eventually - and we're
talking a year or two with a youngster, and weeks to months with a
better schooled horse - the class of riders who rode those horses
widened to experienced, and most horses ended up beginner-safe, though
not all of them were suited for a complete beginner.
(Of all the breeds - including TBs - the Friesians were least suited to
the riding school work, by the way. The owner tried a number of times,
but they needed just too much support at the canter for learning riders
to deal with it, so none of them ended up permanently in the string.
They also got too wound up in certain situations - not nasty, but in a
manner disruptive to the rest of the ride. When you have ten horses in a
20x40 school, _that matters_.)
So I'd say that for every eight they bought, they ended up selling one
fairly quick, and two or three others in the mid-term (3-5 years).
They key to success is to run on a high enough level. Good horses means
good riders which means your horses will stay tuned up better without
needing much staff input. Good riding keeps your horses sound longer,
too, and good riders - and those who are inspired by them - are more
likely to ride a horse they're not keen on because that horse needs work
and their favorite has already done his share, and are more willing to
work on things the horse needs, and are more willing to put the horse's
needs above their own fun.
In return, they get a good education not just in how to ride a horse,
but how to school one, and are more ready for their own horse.
You need to start on a high-enough level, and you need to be ruthless
about your horses' welfare, but if you do it right, you attract the
right sort of people.
Running a low-end stable, with a higher turnover and more need for the
horses to be retrained is a different game, and one I would like a whole
lot less.
Catja
--
writing blog @ http://beyond-elechan.livejournal.com
Francis Burton
<wjka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Indeed. And the phrase "dog and pony show" has nothing to do with
>equestrian or canine competions. :-)
True. However, the original and derived meanings of the phrase are
(still, I believe) quite innocent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_and_pony_show
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog%20and%20pony%20show
Francis
JC Dill
> JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Take 100 horses, 10 studs and 90 mares, and by random lot assign half of
>> them (5 studs, 45 mares) to a university, and let me have the other half
>> as the "control" and I bet I can settle more mares faster and with fewer
>> vet bills than the "professionals" can.
>
> Wowie, that's an arrogant statement!
Yes, it is.
But in my more than 30 years of horse ownership and management I've had
exactly 1 serious colic, which was caused by a buyer failing to follow
my feeding instructions when they took a horse on trial, then returned
her the following week. She went from straight grass (oat/rye) hay to
straight alfalfa, back to straight grass, and developed an impaction colic.
I've never had a horse founder, or choke.
I've never had a horse crib, or get ulcers.
I've never had a horse get cast in the stall.
In other words, many of the management-related horse problems that are
*common* at professional barns, I've never had because I don't use their
management techniques. So I have a good reason (my good success rate)
to believe that my techniques have better outcomes. My technique puts
the horse first, above human conveniences, and in doing so, I have
better results.
>>> There is no special rate of infertility specific to Tbs that I know.
>> The breeders I know (not TB breeders) have had much better success at
>> putting foals on the ground than the TB average (less than 65% of bred
>> mares deliver a live foal). Most have better than 90% success rates.
>> My own success rate was 20 foals, 1 barren mare, a 95% success rate. I
>> had 1 mare come into heat a second time and take on the second heat -
>> the rest all settled on the first heat.
>
> All bred to your stallion? That's not statistically significant and
> you know it.
>
> The plural of anecdote is not data as you well know.
One is an anecdote. 20 foals over 18 years is more than just anecdotal.
You can fairly say my sample size is small, or limited, or that my
"study" was not rigorous enough, but it IS a sample, not just an anecdote.
It's also not unusual, I know other small breeders who pasture rather
than stable their horses, pasture their mares next to the stallions
(natural teasing) or pasture breed, and have similar good results.
>> OTOH, successful twin pregnancies are not nearly as rare as the "scare
>> statistics" claim. The scare statistics compare successful twin births
>> as a fraction of *all* births, not as a fraction of *twin* births.
>> Because twin births are very rare all by themselves, successful twin
>> births are also very rare. Also, there's a fair bit of evidence that
>> many early twin pregnancies are "self reduced" by the mare, so the high
>
> Our mare did reduce one twin pregnancy, the embryos were stuck
> close together so pinching (preferable IME) was not an option. We
> were early enough in the season to wait her out and see if she
> reduced the pregnancy rather than terminating it.
As you may already know (from your own research and experience), in
these cases, the reduction happens naturally far more often than not.
This is why twins are so rare in horses.
>> incidence of twin pregnancies found by early post-breeding exams and
>> "reduced" to a single pregnancy results in many mare owners panicking at
>> the thought of their mare's chances of a catastrophic twin pregnancy,
>> when the odds aren't as high as it might seem. (This doesn't mean it's
>> a good idea to allow a mare to have twins. I'm just talking about the
>> difference between the real statistics and the bogus and scare
>> statistics most people have read. Very few people really understand
>> statistics and are easily fooled or manipulated by bogus statistics.)
>
> jc, I was trained as a science and hold a bachelor of science degree
> in Animql Science. I hardly think I fall into the rank of those who are
> easily fooled by bogus statistics. Geesh.
I wasn't saying *you* were fooled, I was just noting the way the
statistics are bandied about in a way that they fool many people. I
know I believed the "scare statistics" myself, until I found some
studies, saw the data, such as the data at:
http://www.oai.hu/kerekasztal/XIII./hura.htm
Which shows a far higher "successful twin birth" rate than is commonly
believed to be possible.
>> I was on the equine-repro list for quite a few years.
>
> Not the same thing.
The list (started in 1998) pre-dates the site (started in 2000), and
both are run by the same people. The site grew out of a need to have a
better repository for the FAQs asked on the list.
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.equine-reproduction.com
http://www.equine-reproduction.com/EquineRepro.shtml
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/equinerepro/
jc
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
>Sue Leopold wrote:
>> JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Take 100 horses, 10 studs and 90 mares, and by random lot assign half of
>>> them (5 studs, 45 mares) to a university, and let me have the other half
>>> as the "control" and I bet I can settle more mares faster and with fewer
>>> vet bills than the "professionals" can.
>>
>> Wowie, that's an arrogant statement!
>
>Yes, it is.
>
>But in my more than 30 years of horse ownership and management I've had
>exactly 1 serious colic, which was caused by a buyer failing to follow
>my feeding instructions when they took a horse on trial, then returned
>her the following week. She went from straight grass (oat/rye) hay to
>straight alfalfa, back to straight grass, and developed an impaction colic.
So?
To date, I've never had a colic. I've had a twisted gut, but that was
with a pony on grass founder. Colics at the barn I'm at either are
from boarders who came in with the tendency to colic, or are older
horses (and since they've gone on wet feed, no problem.
>I've never had a horse founder, or choke.
You don't live in the country where grass founder is as common as it
is here. No founders at the barn, unless the horse gets out and into
the food.
So far, I've never seen a case of choke.
>I've never had a horse crib, or get ulcers.
Same here. In fact, the cribbers that are in the barn I board at,
which is professionally managed, come from outside.
>I've never had a horse get cast in the stall.
Same here, for horses I've owned. I know of one horse that got cast
regularly at the barn I'm at, and that was when she was a young filly.
>
>In other words, many of the management-related horse problems that are
>*common* at professional barns, I've never had because I don't use their
>management techniques. So I have a good reason (my good success rate)
>to believe that my techniques have better outcomes. My technique puts
>the horse first, above human conveniences, and in doing so, I have
>better results.
More likely it's a case of good luck.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Leopold) wrote:
snip
>Cruiser was on 24x7 turnout for a few months at Donal's.
>He liked it until the bugs got bad. Cruiser has thin skin,
>he doesn't do bugz very well. He looked awful, was
>not happy and lost a ton of condition. Not good for
>a horse who is asked to do what he does. So he is now
>out overnight and in during the day. That's called giving
>the horse in front of you what it needs when it needs it.
Mocha goes out during the day--in a fly sheet that while the fit is
not perfect (dear God, I wish I could find the right kind of fly sheet
that fits the way I want it to!) fits well enough to keep the flies
off her back and belly without rubbing, which is the most important
part of the whole thing. She suffered awfully last year when she
destroyed a finer mesh sheet that didn't fit her well at all (fly
sheets for QHs with butts and shoulders are hard to find) and went
without. And she was off work for several weeks thanks to the poor
fit of THAT sheet, which rubbed enough to get a case of sweet itch
going on her withers--and left her with some white marks.
She's thin-skinned (which is why I need to check the HERDA carrier
status, I'm suspicious) and there were several incidents where she
went out without sheet last summer where she got bit up bad enough to
show welts. Can't put fly spray on her--she welts up. But a tough,
non-fine mesh fly sheet that covers back and belly seems to be
sufficient.
Nighttime is not a safe option. Close enough to suburbs and there's
enough weirdness that it isn't safe--theft, weird people attacks,
roving dog packs--even though we have our own dog pack on site, that's
still courting problems. Plus cougar and bear both have been spotted
in the area, and there's a healthy coyote population.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Leopold) wrote:
snip
>i want the stallion who suits my goals for my mares. I don't want
>to be tied to geographic location. People have different goals
>in breeding; limiting myself to stallions within easy driving
>distance (I sure am not in favor of shipping neonatal foals
>long distance) doesn't suit my goals. So yes, the extra
>expense is worth it for me.
Yeah. If I breed Mocha, given the quality of mare she is, I'm not
just going to settle for what's available locally. I'm going to find
the right stallion and geographic location is fairly low on the list
for what works. If I decide, for example, that Shining Spark (yes,
I've put some thought into it and he's one QH I would consider for
her, along with Walla Walla Whiz) is the right match for her, well,
I'm not just going to settle for some grandson that happens to be
local, especially if said grandson doesn't have the same performance
and production record. I want those performance creds right up close
and personal on the pedigree of anything I breed.
Plus, for some stallions, fresh/frozen AI is the only choice. My
friend who owns the Lipizzan stallion only offers him as fresh/frozen
AI--no live cover.
FYI, there's been some amusing local radio advertisements for IVF
"live child guarantee" for humans. No, they *don't* phrase it that
way--but that's what it is, essentially. First time I heard it on my
way to work, I was laughing my head off-- "live foal guarantee for
humans!"
snip
>Only the mare owner can make that decision.
Exactly.
jrw
Francis Burton
>[...]
>
>I've never had a horse crib, or get ulcers.
I'm not disputing anything else you are claiming about your horses,
but I have to ask how you (or anyone) can know whether their horse
has developed ulcers unless they result in clinical signs and/or
have been specifically investigated e.g. by endoscopy or post mortem
examination? Gastric ulcers can surely exist at a sub-clinical level.
>It's also not unusual, I know other small breeders who pasture rather
>than stable their horses, pasture their mares next to the stallions
>(natural teasing) or pasture breed, and have similar good results.
I imagine that would be beneficial in terms of fertility. Hand-teasing
is sometimes (often?) a perfunctory (and peremptory) affair whose sole
purpose appears to be determining whether the mare will stand for
covering.
Francis
Sue Leopold
> Sue Leopold wrote:
> > JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Take 100 horses, 10 studs and 90 mares, and by random lot assign half of
> >> them (5 studs, 45 mares) to a university, and let me have the other half
> >> as the "control" and I bet I can settle more mares faster and with fewer
> >> vet bills than the "professionals" can.
> >
> > Wowie, that's an arrogant statement!
>
> Yes, it is.
>
> But in my more than 30 years of horse ownership and management I've had
> exactly 1 serious colic, which was caused by a buyer failing to follow
> my feeding instructions when they took a horse on trial, then returned
> her the following week. She went from straight grass (oat/rye) hay to
> straight alfalfa, back to straight grass, and developed an impaction colic.
Over 30 years, one serious colic the result of a strangulating lipoma
on a senior mare.
>
> I've never had a horse founder, or choke.
Nor have I.
>
> I've never had a horse crib, or get ulcers.
No cribbers, no ulcers including show horses in moderate
competitive situations, including living in test stalls.
> In other words, many of the management-related horse problems that are
> *common* at professional barns, I've never had because I don't use their
> management techniques. So I have a good reason (my good success rate)
> to believe that my techniques have better outcomes. My technique puts
> the horse first, above human conveniences, and in doing so, I have
> better results.
I keep horses out and barefoot whenever possible. I like to compete
with my horses at high levels; that management style is not suited
to the AA environment for the most part.
So my management sucks because I choose to compete.
Whatever.
> One is an anecdote. 20 foals over 18 years is more than just anecdotal.
> You can fairly say my sample size is small, or limited, or that my
> "study" was not rigorous enough, but it IS a sample, not just an anecdote.
Fair enough. It is a small sample size and your results are not
statistically significant. Better?
>
> It's also not unusual, I know other small breeders who pasture rather
> than stable their horses, pasture their mares next to the stallions
> (natural teasing) or pasture breed, and have similar good results.
i know many breeders who raise their foals outside, heck it's the
most efficient and economical way to raise them. They do bring
them in to prepare for inspections, breeding shows - that sort
of things. I know of no large breeding farm that pasture breeds or
does live cover except for Tb breeding farms. I do have access
to several lovely Hannoverian stallions - they are exclusively
AI - to breed to one of their stallions less than 20 milnutes away
from my home I would have to do AI. They would not live cover
my mare. But I would save shipping costs :-D for the container.
> As you may already know (from your own research and experience), in
> these cases, the reduction happens naturally far more often than not.
> This is why twins are so rare in horses.
Sure and in fact repro specialists don't advise against breeding on
a double ovulation.
But twins is still a pain in the ass. Following a pregnancy reduction
costs $$$ in terms of ultrasound. ;-)
> Which shows a far higher "successful twin birth" rate than is commonly
> believed to be possible.
Fine. That does not mean that twin pregnancies are optimal.
I do what I do with my horses because of how I choose to enjoy
them. I love keeping horses out and do it whenever possible.
But IMO it would be extremely unfair to take a horse habituated
to 24x7 turnout and subject him/her to stabling condiitions
at week long AA shows.
if you choose to believe that makes me somehow an abusive,
subpar horseman, then you are welcome to that belief.
Somehow I don't think that Ei would be offering Dancer to
me on a breeding lease if she believed that to be true.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid (Catja Pafort) wrote:
>Cricket wrote:
>
>> Even if
>> you don't *want* to be in the horse trading business, with a riding stable
>> you have to be, because it takes a very special kind of horse, and there is
>> absolutely no way to know if they'll work 'til you've tried them for a month
>> or so (well, some that *won't* work are pretty obvious right away - but even
>> then, not always). So for every eight you buy, you end up selling six
>> pretty quick, and the seventh before the end of the season, to get one good
>> horse to put on the line. There is usually *nothing* wrong with the horse -
>> it's just not right for a stable plug. Often it's *too* good, either over
>> responsive, or just too nice to let a lot of amatuers up on.
>
>Or you can try, y'know, training them.
Between price tags on the horses in question and the issue of the
horse's mind, it's easier to just move them on. A schoolie has to
have a certain type of mind, and that's not trained into them--they've
got to have discipline and be a good thinking horse. Maybe the stable
you're thinking of didn't get broncs in the mix, but that's common
enough around here.
The problem with your example is that the pool of horses that the UK
and Germany draw from are differently bred from what many of their
American counterparts are. Around here, the schoolie is more likely
to have a strong dose of generic stock horse or QH rather than a
strong dose of generic TB/cob type. The generic stock horse/QH type
can and does include horses with a strong tendency to buck if pushed
in a certain way. Not at all what you want in a schoolie.
snip
>They bought a mixture of horses - promising youngsters for advanced
>riders (we had several horses schooled to 3rd level dressage, and
>consequently had riders coming to the place to improve their dressage);
>and opportunities - 16yo, never-backed broodmare, standardbred off the
>track, pony that had wrecked one carriage too many, horse the owners
>could not deal with - those were given a chance and mostly worked out.
That's not the typical mix that comes to the schooling barns I've been
familiar with. Most schooling barns I've seen don't do that. The one
exception was a Florida barn.
snip
>They key to success is to run on a high enough level. Good horses means
>good riders which means your horses will stay tuned up better without
>needing much staff input. Good riding keeps your horses sound longer,
>too, and good riders - and those who are inspired by them - are more
>likely to ride a horse they're not keen on because that horse needs work
>and their favorite has already done his share, and are more willing to
>work on things the horse needs, and are more willing to put the horse's
>needs above their own fun.
Very few American schooling barns I've been in can support that level
financially. It's an attitude thing. Most people who can ride at
that level end up owning, especially adults. A talented young rider
is often quickly moved along to purchase a horse rather than work with
schoolies. I know very few schoolie programs aimed at the higher
level rider. If I were still riding schoolies, I know I wouldn't be
riding a horse at Mocha's level. We're one of the highest level
regular schooling combination, if not *the* highest, in the barn on a
regular basis (this doesn't count those who haul in for short periods
of time for show tuneups. Some pretty high level riding there--and
G's own horses with his wife are also pretty high level).
>In return, they get a good education not just in how to ride a horse,
>but how to school one, and are more ready for their own horse.
>
>You need to start on a high-enough level, and you need to be ruthless
>about your horses' welfare, but if you do it right, you attract the
>right sort of people.
Knowing what I do about most American stables, it wouldn't be
financially doable.
jrw
Cricket
"Catja Pafort" <green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:1j3750n.2xkux01vm0ys6N%green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid...
> Cricket wrote:
>
>> Even if
>> you don't *want* to be in the horse trading business, with a riding
>> stable
>> you have to be, because it takes a very special kind of horse, and there
>> is
>> absolutely no way to know if they'll work 'til you've tried them for a
>> month
>> or so (well, some that *won't* work are pretty obvious right away - but
>> even
>> then, not always). So for every eight you buy, you end up selling six
>> pretty quick, and the seventh before the end of the season, to get one
>> good
>> horse to put on the line. There is usually *nothing* wrong with the
>> horse -
>> it's just not right for a stable plug. Often it's *too* good, either
>> over
>> responsive, or just too nice to let a lot of amatuers up on.
>
> Or you can try, y'know, training them.
That's kind of her point, though - she doesn't want to train one to be
*less* responsive, etc., when it comes in
with that sort of training. That sort of horse doesn't do well at a riding
stable...they go nuts, if they keep their training,
or lose it, which she thinks is a shame.
I don't think you're thinking of the same kind of riding stable I'm talking
about - most of these people
haven't been on a horse more than a dozen times, if ever. They are strictly
passengers, and it isn't fair to
stick them up on a horse that cares. The horses follow...kind of like a
pony ring through the woods...
think pack string with live cargo.
A fair number of these horses came in way over-fed and nasty, and leave
after a few years with some potential
to have a good if unimpressive life as someone's backyard, ride once a week
buddy.
I'm cracking up (though somewhat sadly) at the idea of training any of these
people to do anything other than "Keep
your heels down and give him a loose rein, and stay behind the guide."
Cricket
Eileen Morgan
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 05:37:03 -0700, JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Sue Leopold wrote:
>>> JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Take 100 horses, 10 studs and 90 mares, and by random lot assign half of
>>>> them (5 studs, 45 mares) to a university, and let me have the other half
>>>> as the "control" and I bet I can settle more mares faster and with fewer
>>>> vet bills than the "professionals" can.
>>> Wowie, that's an arrogant statement!
>> Yes, it is.
>>
>> But in my more than 30 years of horse ownership and management I've had
>> exactly 1 serious colic, which was caused by a buyer failing to follow
>> my feeding instructions when they took a horse on trial, then returned
>> her the following week. She went from straight grass (oat/rye) hay to
>> straight alfalfa, back to straight grass, and developed an impaction colic.
>
> So?
>
> To date, I've never had a colic. I've had a twisted gut, but that was
> with a pony on grass founder. Colics at the barn I'm at either are
> from boarders who came in with the tendency to colic, or are older
> horses (and since they've gone on wet feed, no problem.
Well, I have not been as special as you guys.
We lost Spot to strangulating lipoma, which is a colic form.
Bard had mild colic twice when he was two; he did it again, same sort of
thing, mild colic that was hard to get rid of, at Jane's when he was 6
or so.
Madam, Rollie, Doc, Belles, Dancer, Delilah, Rain, Baby, Callie, no
colic that I recall.
Moonlight had a stress colic, mild, after the first time I rode her (for
15 minutes, walking) with Rain at her side.
It seems like I am missing a mild colic or two, but then, none were so
exciting that I was all stressed out and can recall them clearly. Shot
of banamine, keep an eye on them, and done.
Personally, I think a lot of people don't ever know that their horses
have had a mild colic because it is over and done with on its own before
the horse is observed. I bet of the mild colics I've had, many would not
have been noticed if I were not able to see the horses from the house
all the time that I am home.
I had one boarder who's horse got a gas colic after a rain that lushed
up the pasture he had been on for months. Scotch sorted him out before
the vet arrived. :-)
>> I've never had a horse founder, or choke.
>
> You don't live in the country where grass founder is as common as it
> is here. No founders at the barn, unless the horse gets out and into
> the food.
>
> So far, I've never seen a case of choke.
Callie choked once, scared the crap out of me. Dancer once stopped
eating, walked around stretching her neck and making a funny face, then
went back to eating. I suspect she had something a bit thick in the
throat and took care of it without stress or help--and I bet that
happens more than we think, too. The difference between that and Callie
choking is someone laughing and snorting a drink up their nose or
coughing after swallowing a big bite and someone needing the Heimlich
maneuver.
Belles had that mild laminitic change the year I decided to put shoes on
her, but she never missed a step or was off--my farrier noted it and we
shod her before it developed into road founder. No other issues with that.
ng>> I've never had a horse crib, or get ulcers.
>
> Same here. In fact, the cribbers that are in the barn I board at,
> which is professionally managed, come from outside.
Nope, none of that here.
>> I've never had a horse get cast in the stall.
>
> Same here, for horses I've owned. I know of one horse that got cast
> regularly at the barn I'm at, and that was when she was a young filly.
Not at my place, but I've dealt with it elsewhere.
>> In other words, many of the management-related horse problems that are
>> *common* at professional barns, I've never had because I don't use their
>> management techniques. So I have a good reason (my good success rate)
>> to believe that my techniques have better outcomes. My technique puts
>> the horse first, above human conveniences, and in doing so, I have
>> better results.
>
> More likely it's a case of good luck.
Some things are easily averted, some are not. JC, you use a good program
of care and also have had good luck. I feed high quality hay, pasture in
season, very few concentrates, and the horses are out as much as I can
get them out, mostly 24/7. I've still had some mild colics, almost all
when there has been a big weather change. Sh*t happens.
Mary Healey
> jc, I was trained as a science and hold a bachelor of science degree
> in Animql Science. I hardly think I fall into the rank of those who are
> easily fooled by bogus statistics. Geesh.
I find it interesting that JC talks about "scare" statistics wrt twinning,
yet has no problem comparing the success of small, labor-intensive breeding
operations with the industry standard for Thoroughbreds (a standard skewed
towards the large farms standing stallions with large bookings, with a
registry that requires live cover).
What's the industry standard for Quarter Horses, anyway? There's many more
of them than Thoroughbreds. Is the distribution of the breeding population
skewed towards larger producers or more towards the smaller operations?
"Boutique" breeders, Sue? That's probably a better description than the
phrase "hobby breeder".
As for the success of University breeding programs, even small-scale
programs suffer the same drawbacks as large-scale commercial operations.
Their success depends on having *many* skilled, observant people (often
part-time help or students) performing the tasks that fall to just one
skilled, observant, experienced person with a few mares to breed.
--
Mary H. and the restored Ames National Zoo:
The Right Reverand Sir Edgar "Lucky" Pan-Waffles;
U-CD ANZ Babylon Ranger, CD, RE; ANZ Pas de Duke, RN;
Caris and rotund Rhia
Sue Leopold
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:18:21 -0400, svle...@earthlink.net (Sue
> Leopold) wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >i want the stallion who suits my goals for my mares. I don't want
> >to be tied to geographic location. People have different goals
> >in breeding; limiting myself to stallions within easy driving
> >distance (I sure am not in favor of shipping neonatal foals
> >long distance) doesn't suit my goals. So yes, the extra
> >expense is worth it for me.
>
> Yeah. If I breed Mocha, given the quality of mare she is, I'm not
> just going to settle for what's available locally. I'm going to find
> the right stallion and geographic location is fairly low on the list
> for what works. If I decide, for example, that Shining Spark (yes,
> I've put some thought into it and he's one QH I would consider for
> her, along with Walla Walla Whiz) is the right match for her, well,
> I'm not just going to settle for some grandson that happens to be
> local, especially if said grandson doesn't have the same performance
> and production record. I want those performance creds right up close
> and personal on the pedigree of anything I breed.
Yep, my philosophy as well. That is not saying that there
are not lovely stallions available right down the road, heck
we have a top-class Hanno breeding farm right here in
the Lehigh Valley. But they are dressage lines for the most
part (Gold Luck being the exception though he is primarily
known for producing dressage horses) so not suitable for
me (and they are AI fresh-cooled only) Just because a
horse is an outstanding individual does not mean it matches
up with your goals or your mare's bloodlines.
If you breed Mocha my guess is that the foal would be
intended for you and you would want to load the genetic
dice in your favor as much as possible. I can dig that.
> Plus, for some stallions, fresh/frozen AI is the only choice. My
> friend who owns the Lipizzan stallion only offers him as fresh/frozen
> AI--no live cover.
Some people who have stallions opt not to handle the breeding
end but instead take the stallion to a breeding station. For
a single stallion with a small book it doesn't make sense
for the stallion owner to have a phantom, lab setup and
equipment for shipped semen. Mo Swanson's (Rolling
Stone Farm, the Hanno breeder a half hour from me) lab
would rival that of one in a hospital setting! But she stands
three stallions each year and breeds 20 or more mares of
her own so it makes sense for her to have the investment.
>
> FYI, there's been some amusing local radio advertisements for IVF
> "live child guarantee" for humans. No, they *don't* phrase it that
> way--but that's what it is, essentially. First time I heard it on my
> way to work, I was laughing my head off-- "live foal guarantee for
> humans!"
<snort> <guffaw>
Sue Leopold
> Well, I have not been as special as you guys.
>
> We lost Spot to strangulating lipoma, which is a colic form.
Yes, we had a friend who lost one to this. These are sad; there
is not a blessed thing you can do for the horse. No management
regime will prevent this either.
>
> Bard had mild colic twice when he was two; he did it again, same sort of
> thing, mild colic that was hard to get rid of, at Jane's when he was 6
> or so.
We've had those types. Sometimes seems to coincide with a
severe weather change.
<snip>
> It seems like I am missing a mild colic or two, but then, none were so
> exciting that I was all stressed out and can recall them clearly. Shot
> of banamine, keep an eye on them, and done.
Matthew Mackay-Smith used to call these "pizza colics" :-) and
I agree they are NBD.
> Personally, I think a lot of people don't ever know that their horses
> have had a mild colic because it is over and done with on its own before
> the horse is observed. I bet of the mild colics I've had, many would not
> have been noticed if I were not able to see the horses from the house
> all the time that I am home.
Agree with this statement.
>
> I had one boarder who's horse got a gas colic after a rain that lushed
> up the pasture he had been on for months. Scotch sorted him out before
> the vet arrived. :-)
Classic pizza colic.
> > Same here, for horses I've owned. I know of one horse that got cast
> > regularly at the barn I'm at, and that was when she was a young filly.
>
> Not at my place, but I've dealt with it elsewhere.
Getting cast is a huge problem in temporary show stabling because
the stalls are incredibly small. I wish I could afford a double stall
but no way at what is charged per stall at shows!
> Some things are easily averted, some are not. JC, you use a good program
> of care and also have had good luck. I feed high quality hay, pasture in
> season, very few concentrates, and the horses are out as much as I can
> get them out, mostly 24/7. I've still had some mild colics, almost all
> when there has been a big weather change. Sh*t happens.
I think for the most part I've found that people on the wreck tend
to do the best they can for their horses given their individual
circumstances.
Alison Hiltabidle
> Eileen Morgan <eg...@ptd.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Well, I have not been as special as you guys.
>>
>> We lost Spot to strangulating lipoma, which is a colic form.
>
> Yes, we had a friend who lost one to this. These are sad; there
> is not a blessed thing you can do for the horse. No management
> regime will prevent this either.
>>
I lost two to this. Different years, thank G_d; both older guys; but
still hard.
Sue Leopold
> Mocha goes out during the day--in a fly sheet that while the fit is
> not perfect (dear God, I wish I could find the right kind of fly sheet
> that fits the way I want it to!) fits well enough to keep the flies
> off her back and belly without rubbing, which is the most important
If night turnout was not an option this is the direction I would
go, even though it would mean coughing up the premium
charge for an 84 inch blanket. I want normal sized horses
again, I do, I do. Cruiser's clothing and tack budget is
ridiculous; fortunately at least he has a normal sized head
(horse bridle, five inch snaffle) The final straw was the search
for the 56 inch studguard girth. Major sticker shock until Nina
found a nice British-made one for a reasonable price on eBay
(Cruiser is almost exclusively outfitted in eBay finds :-))
> She's thin-skinned (which is why I need to check the HERDA carrier
> status, I'm suspicious) and there were several incidents where she
> went out without sheet last summer where she got bit up bad enough to
> show welts. Can't put fly spray on her--she welts up. But a tough,
> non-fine mesh fly sheet that covers back and belly seems to be
> sufficient.
Cruiser can take fly spray but welts horribly from fly bites. But
HERDA is not a player here.
>
> Nighttime is not a safe option. Close enough to suburbs and there's
> enough weirdness that it isn't safe--theft, weird people attacks,
> roving dog packs--even though we have our own dog pack on site, that's
> still courting problems. Plus cougar and bear both have been spotted
> in the area, and there's a healthy coyote population.
Yep, night turnout would not be an option for me under those
circumstances.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Leopold) wrote:
snip
>If you breed Mocha my guess is that the foal would be
>intended for you and you would want to load the genetic
>dice in your favor as much as possible. I can dig that.
Exactly. And I would look at both QH and sporthorse possibilities
with her--a sporthorse result would be on the smallish side, but
that's what I would want.
>> Plus, for some stallions, fresh/frozen AI is the only choice. My
>> friend who owns the Lipizzan stallion only offers him as fresh/frozen
>> AI--no live cover.
>
>Some people who have stallions opt not to handle the breeding
>end but instead take the stallion to a breeding station. For
>a single stallion with a small book it doesn't make sense
>for the stallion owner to have a phantom, lab setup and
>equipment for shipped semen. Mo Swanson's (Rolling
>Stone Farm, the Hanno breeder a half hour from me) lab
>would rival that of one in a hospital setting! But she stands
>three stallions each year and breeds 20 or more mares of
>her own so it makes sense for her to have the investment.
That's the issue with my friend. She has access to a very nice
breeding station, so he goes there.
>>
>> FYI, there's been some amusing local radio advertisements for IVF
>> "live child guarantee" for humans. No, they *don't* phrase it that
>> way--but that's what it is, essentially. First time I heard it on my
>> way to work, I was laughing my head off-- "live foal guarantee for
>> humans!"
>
><snort> <guffaw>
Yeah, it *is* pretty amusing.
What's also pretty amusing is that there's a lot more going on in the
QH performance show world with regard to cloning, IVF and embryo
transfer than I see in science fiction writing! I keep thinking I
should take the horse world reproductive tech stuff and apply it to
something I write--except the story hasn't popped up yet (but it's
close).
jrw
cindi
Joyce is absolutely right for American stables, particularly those on
the west coast or any rural area. In addition, there are liability
issues - if a horse has a problem, I cannot and will not use him for
students. I have to be able to say all horses I'm using for students
are not known to have any problems... They are horses, not machines,
yes, but I can't use, as Catja mentioned, a pony who's wrecked carts,
and I certainly can't use an aged unstarted prior broodmare. That is
simply asking for a lawsuit. It is a different environment here.
I do have the "help you start" program but that's done with somebody's
OWN horse, and I'm very clear that it's for advanced riders only, and
that there will be an evaluation period of their skill set first.
Joyce has a great point too about people just buying their own horse.
After, you know, zero to 20 lessons, everybody's ready to own a
horse. ;-) And once that horse is bought, that person is no longer
riding lesson horses (and in fact most are no longer in lessons even
though they desperately need them because now their money goes to
board and ownership expenses instead of being available for lessons -
a real shame, and I've talked to many, many potential horse buyers
about that.)
I won't waste too much time on an unsuitable horse. I buy a lot at
auctions and whatnot where they come for less than half price (I'll
stick to talking about how things used to go, a couple years ago,
before the economy went whacko), and Allison and I and used to be S.
would work them and identify right away who was suitable and who
wasn't. In most cases we could sell the unsuitable ones quickly for a
profit. Very rarely would be one that needed some retraining before
being sold - most could be sold right away to the right kind of
rider. And there has been about one case of a horse who was very
unsuitable but who didn't sell and who I really started to like, and I
worked with him a lot and he is now a totally beginner safe horse and
can do pony rides, birthday parties, and go out and win the ranch
sorting with a more advanced rider. But most were just sold. If I
can't right away use them for lessons, they are just money down the
drain.
cindi
Nancy DeMarco
> Well, I have not been as special as you guys.
Me neither. Lu impacted, even though she had 10 acres of grass
turnout, access to 3 run-in sheds and 6 walk-out stalls, and 5 sources
of fresh water. And she did it while I was away for the weekend - the
very first time I ever left her for a weekend. The buck still stops
here - I chose the caretakers and gave the instructions. It didn't
occur to me that she might stand in a stall eating straw rather than
going out to graze. My bad.
Jinks had a mild colic when I gave him bute for erlichiosis. Erlichia
and Lyme are very common here, and lest anyone assume this is due to
my wooded turnout, I assure you that I find more ticks in my lawn than
I do in my woods. The best way to avoid ticks is to keep the horses
stabled. Ain't happening.
And today I am deciding between keeping my tick-eating chickens cooped
for a month, or shooting a family of foxes that have taken up
residence 50' from my driveway. Gun loaded.
> Personally, I think a lot of people don't ever know that their horses
> have had a mild colic because it is over and done with on its own before
> the horse is observed. I bet of the mild colics I've had, many would not
> have been noticed if I were not able to see the horses from the house
> all the time that I am home.
This is very true. I check mine just before bed, around 11 PM. One
night I found Louise out in the woods looking a bit stressed. She
pawed and rolled, then pawed and lay down, looking at her side. I
said the obligatory, "Shit," and went to the barn for a halter. By
the time I walked back out - maybe two minutes - she was fine. I
checked her every hour for the rest of the night, and she stayed
fine. But she definitely had a belly ache for a minute.
As for choke, I had two very mild chokes with Jinks when I tried
feeding him a local low-nsc feed. It is a very small, very hard
pellet which expands quickly when it hits saliva, and I have since
learned (from a clinic) that they've seen an increase in chokes with
this particular feed. I'm not sure how I should have known this
before experiencing it.
The first time, it was very wet, but not well-soaked. The second time
it was soaked for a half hour, and had become a gritty mush. And I
mixed it into his well-soaked alfalfa pellets. He still managed to
choke on it, and he has shown no tendency to choke on anything else.
And I did have one cribber, when I was a teenager. My 2-yr-old played
with a stick and scratched his throat. During the period in which his
food was withheld so his throat could heal, he started cribbing. And
he cribbed until he died.
So far, no laminitis beginning with me, though I have taken in
foundered horses and rehabbed them. Ulcers - Lucy appeared to have an
issue when I was working on getting her happier in the trailer by
making lots of short trips. Jinks is a track horse - sub-clinical
ulcers are likely.
Lucy was also very good at getting cast as a foal. And she would lie
there upside-down waiting for me to come and roll her over.
Thankfully, she eventually outgrew it.
IMO, comparing a small breeding operation to a commercial venture, or
to one where the offspring is intended for very specific, very high-
level use, is comparing apples to oranges. Breeding practices serve
specific purposes. Were I to breed again (not bloody likely), I'd
rather gamble on a lower conception rate and higher cost, than breed
to something that has far less chance of producing what I want.
FWIW, the few mares I've bred AI settled on the first cover. I think
singing, "Some Enchanted Evening," and replacing "Stranger" with
"Pipette" helps, though it does seem to embarrass the vet.
Nancy
Jill
>
> Jinks had a mild colic when I gave him bute for erlichiosis. Erlichia
> and Lyme are very common here, and lest anyone assume this is due to
> my wooded turnout, I assure you that I find more ticks in my lawn than
> I do in my woods. The best way to avoid ticks is to keep the horses
> stabled. Ain't happening.
>
> And today I am deciding between keeping my tick-eating chickens cooped
> for a month, or shooting a family of foxes that have taken up
> residence 50' from my driveway. Gun loaded.
Guinea fowl are MUCH more effective tick controllers than chickens, they are
flighty so spend more time in trees away from foxes.
And they taste good.
(not saying anything about the noise though)
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk
JC Dill
> And fwiw, even though Nina and I are evil people, easily taken
> in by bogus statistics, who keep horses in stalls rather than in
> pasture 24x7 which is evil and detrimental, our horses have
> uniformly been sound, healthy and live to great ages as
> healthy, stall-kept horses who even <gasp!> are asked to
> compete and Stay In Confined Conditions at horse shows.
> Oh the humanity!
Sue, my reply didn't say anything bad about you, Nina, or the way you
keep your horses, or your personal understanding of statistics, etc. I
was speaking in generalities, not about your horses or your care. In
*general* horses that are stalled have more management-related issues
such as ulcers, cribbing and other vices, colics, being cast, etc. In
general, horses kept on pasture have fewer of these problems. In
general, mares that are kept with stallions, (across the fence or
pasture bred) stand easier for breeding and settle better. My comments
were about the generalities, not about you specifically. Even when I'm
replying to a post you wrote, I'm not writing "just to you" - I'm
writing to the entire discussion forum. Think of it as you and I being
part of a big group around the table, and you make a comment, then I
make a comment - I'm not addressing "you" in my reply, I'm speaking to
the entire table of people with us.
If I'm writing just to you, I'll use private email. OK?
> That's called giving
> the horse in front of you what it needs when it needs it.
I've never said you did otherwise. You obviously give your horses
excellent care.
jc
JC Dill
> In article <h44cpk$k8h$1...@aioe.org>, JC Dill <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> I've never had a horse crib, or get ulcers.
>
> I'm not disputing anything else you are claiming about your horses,
> but I have to ask how you (or anyone) can know whether their horse
> has developed ulcers unless they result in clinical signs and/or
> have been specifically investigated e.g. by endoscopy or post mortem
> examination? Gastric ulcers can surely exist at a sub-clinical level.
I've never had a horse show any of the signs that would lead one to
suspect ulcers might be a problem. I feed very little grain. My horses
are not living a high-stress or high-grain lifestyle, the lifestyle
associated with ulcers.
jc
JC Dill
> So my management sucks because I choose to compete.
I never said your management sucks!
>> One is an anecdote. 20 foals over 18 years is more than just anecdotal.
>> You can fairly say my sample size is small, or limited, or that my
>> "study" was not rigorous enough, but it IS a sample, not just an anecdote.
>
> Fair enough. It is a small sample size and your results are not
> statistically significant. Better?
Yes. :-)
>> As you may already know (from your own research and experience), in
>> these cases, the reduction happens naturally far more often than not.
>> This is why twins are so rare in horses.
>
> Sure and in fact repro specialists don't advise against breeding on
> a double ovulation.
>
> But twins is still a pain in the ass. Following a pregnancy reduction
> costs $$$ in terms of ultrasound. ;-)
Yep.
>> Which shows a far higher "successful twin birth" rate than is commonly
>> believed to be possible.
>
> Fine. That does not mean that twin pregnancies are optimal.
I never said they were optimal. In fact I've been very careful to say
they are NOT optimal. They just aren't as "dangerous" as some of the
"scare statistics" might lead some people to believe.
> I do what I do with my horses because of how I choose to enjoy
> them. I love keeping horses out and do it whenever possible.
I know you do.
> But IMO it would be extremely unfair to take a horse habituated
> to 24x7 turnout and subject him/her to stabling condiitions
> at week long AA shows.
My gelding Breeze adapted quite fine to living in a stall at shows, when
necessary. I don't believe it is necessary to keep a horse in a stall
on a daily basis in order for the horse to adapt to being kept in a
stall at a show, or when sick/injured or when management changes dictate
the horse needs to be stalled (e.g. turn-out becomes unusable). I have
found that for most horses, as long as the horse is stalled occasionally
(for whatever reason) it seems to understand that living in a stall is
sometimes "how it is" and adapts quite well.
> if you choose to believe that makes me somehow an abusive,
> subpar horseman, then you are welcome to that belief.
I have never said, or believed anything like that. I know *first hand*
that you take great care of your horses!
> Somehow I don't think that Ei would be offering Dancer to
> me on a breeding lease if she believed that to be true.
I think it would be *wonderful* if you took Dancer on a breeding lease!
jc
JC Dill
> svle...@earthlink.net (Sue Leopold) wrote:
>> jc, I was trained as a science and hold a bachelor of science degree
>> in Animql Science. I hardly think I fall into the rank of those who are
>> easily fooled by bogus statistics. Geesh.
>
> I find it interesting that JC talks about "scare" statistics wrt twinning,
> yet has no problem comparing the success of small, labor-intensive breeding
> operations with the industry standard for Thoroughbreds (a standard skewed
> towards the large farms standing stallions with large bookings, with a
> registry that requires live cover).
In addition to owning and breeding my stallion Khai to my own and
outside mares over the 18 years I owned him (1985-2003), I worked at TB
breeding farms in Kentucky (1) and California (2), and at a stallion
station that did AI with Warmbloods, and both AI and live cover with
other stallions at stud (including 2 mammoth jacks). I also have
several friends who are "small breeders" - one leased a TB stallion for
a year (during which time I took care of her horses for 5 weeks while
she took a vacation). I have a pretty broad background in horse
breeding operations and management issues, from the very large farm
(Kentucky TBs), medium farm (California TBs, California stallion
station) and small farm perspectives.
jc
Jill
>
>> But IMO it would be extremely unfair to take a horse habituated
>> to 24x7 turnout and subject him/her to stabling condiitions
>> at week long AA shows.
>
> My gelding Breeze adapted quite fine to living in a stall at shows,
> when necessary. I don't believe it is necessary to keep a horse in a
> stall on a daily basis in order for the horse to adapt to being kept
> in a stall at a show, or when sick/injured or when management changes
That can depend on the horse.
I had one who made every effort to take out the sides of stables when he had
to be emergency stalled having been out for some years.
Clearly another part of his history he had trauma about that we knew nothing
of.
Later, having been reintroduced rather more carefully he was able to be in
as a routine without causing damage.
But from him, and other experiences, if I knew that sometimes, especially at
times of stress like being away competing, knew that my horse would have to
be in a strange stall, then I would take the trouble to acclimatise him /
her to stalling before hand.
>> Somehow I don't think that Ei would be offering Dancer to
>> me on a breeding lease if she believed that to be true.
>
> I think it would be *wonderful* if you took Dancer on a breeding
> lease!
OH YEAH
another CC to drool over for all us maiden aunts around the globe , oh yes
oh yes oh yes .
In fact - Sue - I think you really have to for all our sakes
<VBEG>
Sue Leopold
> My gelding Breeze adapted quite fine to living in a stall at shows, when
> necessary. I don't believe it is necessary to keep a horse in a stall
> on a daily basis in order for the horse to adapt to being kept in a
> stall at a show, or when sick/injured or when management changes dictate
> the horse needs to be stalled (e.g. turn-out becomes unusable). I have
> found that for most horses, as long as the horse is stalled occasionally
> (for whatever reason) it seems to understand that living in a stall is
> sometimes "how it is" and adapts quite well.
Were those temporary tent stalls of the lavish 9x9 variety? ;-)
Twenty years ago I'd have agreed with you. Horses spent
a handful of days in temporary stalls then went home. Now,
with the weeks long circuits such as HITs, WEF etc horses
are confined for weeks not days. The "turnout" provided at
these venues is extremely limited both in time and size. IOW,
it sucks. ;-)
Some horses adapt better than others. Cruiser is very
adaptable, hell, he may have been the only horse ever to
gain weight on a journey composed of 1) one week wandering
about the Irish countryside on a trailer while picking up other
horses destined for Frankfurt (cannot fly horses from Shannon
Airport into JFK and the USDA quarantine facility in NY state)
2) trans-Atlantic flight which, knowing Cruiser, he viewed as
a wonderful smorgasbord of unlimited hay and 3) quarantine
in a stall at the USDA facility in Newburg, replete with incoming
exotics. He would probably live in a shoebox as long as there
is plenty of food. He's definitely a horse that would go straight
from the pasture to a temporary stall. But others don't adapt
so quickly and IME routine confinement helps rather than
hurts.
> I think it would be *wonderful* if you took Dancer on a breeding lease!
There is just this niggling concern about money. Dammit. I
even know of some Galoubet frozen lying about. Though man,
if this guy is available frozen I could get me some more Touchdown;
http://www.knockrathstud.ie/cara-touche.html
I love Flagmount Diamond too btw.
Sue Leopold
> OH YEAH
>
> another CC to drool over for all us maiden aunts around the globe , oh yes
> oh yes oh yes .
Did you look at the Knabstrupper filly? CC is not the first smashing,
athletic foal this mare has produced.
The only proof of a stallion is in his get. Oh yeah. And that goes
for mares too. Dancer passes that litmus test. In spades.
> In fact - Sue - I think you really have to for all our sakes
Honest, the only thing holding me back right now is that pesky thing
called money. Life is so unfair ;-) I could do so many Good Things.
Jill
> Jill <ne...@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> OH YEAH
>>
>> another CC to drool over for all us maiden aunts around the globe ,
>> oh yes oh yes oh yes .
>
> Did you look at the Knabstrupper filly? CC is not the first smashing,
> athletic foal this mare has produced.
Yes,
which is why it makes it SO interesting to think on what YOU would use.
<VBG>
and what THAT would make.
its not an idle drooling
>
> The only proof of a stallion is in his get. Oh yeah. And that goes
> for mares too. Dancer passes that litmus test. In spades.
>
>> In fact - Sue - I think you really have to for all our sakes
>
> Honest, the only thing holding me back right now is that pesky thing
> called money. Life is so unfair ;-) I could do so many Good Things.
hmmm - just how many and how much do we need to make a WRECK baby
syndicate?????
It really would be interesting to see a spreadsheet of figures.
Catja Pafort
> I don't think you're thinking of the same kind of riding stable I'm
> talking about - most of these people haven't been on a horse more than a
> dozen times, if ever. They are strictly passengers, and it isn't fair to
> stick them up on a horse that cares. The horses follow...kind of like a
> pony ring through the woods... think pack string with live cargo.
I know what you mean, but when you said 'lesson stable' it wasn't what
came to mind. (Around here, that would be 'pony trekking'. Well, not
around _here_, but in the UK in general. More in the upland areas.)
And, much as one might roll one's eyes, I think such places have a place
in allowing people to get a taste of the wonderfulness that is riding
and to show they that yes, it really *is* great fun.
Grizzly
> Nancy DeMarco wrote:
>>
>> Jinks had a mild colic when I gave him bute for erlichiosis. Erlichia
>> and Lyme are very common here, and lest anyone assume this is due to
>> my wooded turnout, I assure you that I find more ticks in my lawn than
>> I do in my woods. The best way to avoid ticks is to keep the horses
>> stabled. Ain't happening.
>>
>> And today I am deciding between keeping my tick-eating chickens cooped
>> for a month, or shooting a family of foxes that have taken up
>> residence 50' from my driveway. Gun loaded.
>
> Guinea fowl are MUCH more effective tick controllers than chickens, they
> are flighty so spend more time in trees away from foxes.
> And they taste good.
>
>
>
> (not saying anything about the noise though)
>
>
ticks part, although I suspect any bug is on the menu for them. They eat
those nasty Japanese ladybugs that our department of natural resources
idiots imported to our state to torment us. Ever had one of those fly
into your mouth when you are snoring? Yecch. Guinea fowl always wind up
squashed flat on the road here for some reason. I think there are no
brains in there tiny little heads. My peafowl seem to do a pretty good
job eating bugs. They aren't as active as the guineas though, and they
are louder, though less grating in the noise category.
Jill
> Jill wrote:
>> Nancy DeMarco wrote:
>>>
>>> Jinks had a mild colic when I gave him bute for erlichiosis. Erlichia
>>> and Lyme are very common here, and lest anyone assume this
>>> is due to my wooded turnout, I assure you that I find more ticks in
>>> my lawn than I do in my woods. The best way to avoid ticks is to
>>> keep the horses stabled. Ain't happening.
>>>
>>> And today I am deciding between keeping my tick-eating chickens
>>> cooped for a month, or shooting a family of foxes that have taken up
>>> residence 50' from my driveway. Gun loaded.
>>
>> Guinea fowl are MUCH more effective tick controllers than chickens,
>> they are flighty so spend more time in trees away from foxes.
>> And they taste good.
>>
>>
>>
>> (not saying anything about the noise though)
>>
>>
> The taste good part is right on the money. I don't know about the eat
> ticks part, although I suspect any bug is on the menu for them.
They have been historically popular with shephards as an accompaning flock
to sheep for just this purpose.
They eat more than chooks.
:)
They
> eat those nasty Japanese ladybugs that our department of natural
> resources idiots imported to our state to torment us. Ever had one of
> those fly into your mouth when you are snoring? Yecch.
as you say :(((
Guinea fowl
> always wind up squashed flat on the road here for some reason. I
> think there are no brains in there tiny little heads.
ah weeellll
Nancy seems far enough off the beaten track :)
My peafowl seem
> to do a pretty good job eating bugs. They aren't as active as the
> guineas though, and they are louder, though less grating in the noise
> category.
hmmmmm - friend has them, but then she also has kennels and parrots, so its
all noise up there <g>
Cricket
"Catja Pafort" <green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid> wrote in message
Ah, there's the confusion - I never said "lesson stable"...must have been
someone else. I wondered...thought maybe riding stables there were much
different.
You're right, though. Some folks who've ridden there for the first time end
up working as guides, or buying their favorite horse (that sort of stable
horses tend to burn out after a few years, and she keeps a close eye on who
needs to move on). A lot of new horse folks have been started out there.
Cricket
cindi
>
> The taste good part is right on the money. I don't know about the eat
> ticks part, although I suspect any bug is on the menu for them. They eat
> those nasty Japanese ladybugs that our department of natural resources
> idiots imported to our state to torment us. Ever had one of those fly
> into your mouth when you are snoring? Yecch. Guinea fowl always wind up
> squashed flat on the road here for some reason. I think there are no
> brains in there tiny little heads. My peafowl seem to do a pretty good
> job eating bugs. They aren't as active as the guineas though, and they
> are louder, though less grating in the noise category.- Hide quoted text -
Are any of those critters less likely to scratch up gardens than
regular chickens?
cindi
cindi
> regular chickens?
Oh, I found this:
http://www.guineafowl.com/fritsfarm/guineas/
It says they don't scratch, and they go thru her gardens eating bugs
without harming a single leaf on her flowers. I think I'm investing
in some when I get home! Says to get them as keets and keep in a
brooder etc so they will have more of a chance of sticking around the
property and not leaving.
It says they even eat ants, and we are swarmed with ants this year. I
am spraying chemicals like never before and ants come into my house
every day. Plus my dad had a tick, and we NEVER have ticks here.
Sounds interesting!
cindi
Jill
"cindi" <alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a19ad4ad-34ed-40d2...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
kerclark kerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclark
kerclark kerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclark
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kerclark kerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclarkkerclark
getbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetback
getbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetback
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getbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetback
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getbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetback
getbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetbackgetback
rinse and repeat for 3/4 hour without a breath <g>
Nancy DeMarco
> Are any of those critters less likely to scratch up gardens than
> regular chickens?
The banties haven't scratched up anything. The standard chickens made
this place look like a lunar landscape.
My banties all fly well, and they like trees (except the poor earth-
bound frizzle). The foxes took a couple a few weeks ago. I assumed
hawks, since it was mid-day when it happened. If they free-range, we
expect to lose an occasional bird. If they don't free-range, they
don't eat ticks.
But then I saw the fox, and followed her to her den. And it's WAY too
close. With two half-grown kits, you know the parents will be hunting
day and night. So the usual rules (locked up by dusk) don't apply.
Can't decide whether to keep them locked up (very unhappy banties, not
doing their job), or let nature take its course. The survivors should
parent smarter chicks. Dory's chicks hit the trees the moment the
crows call.
Problem is, I'm fond of them all. Sucked to lose Dory. :-(
Nancy
Jill
> cindi <allisonac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Are any of those critters less likely to scratch up gardens than
>> regular chickens?
>
> The banties haven't scratched up anything. The standard chickens made
> this place look like a lunar landscape.
We have chooks and gardens and plants and grass.
And we are in a wet nasty place for birds and land is hard to keep.
too many birds in too small a place = birds doing what they do.
Nothing less than the same with equines, wrong density in wrong ground at
the wrong time = mud hell. / dust hell
Hens shut in houses every night don't get taken unless you have daytime
predators.
We have lost VERY few birds in two decades here despite having over 50
different houses from 100 down to trios and over 1000 birds on the place in
the past.
>
> But then I saw the fox, and followed her to her den. And it's WAY too
> close. With two half-grown kits, you know the parents will be hunting
> day and night.
ours don't they are still dusk and dawn. But lots of folks in the UK have
day time foxes which are a new unnatural population - usually fed from
suburbs or nouvelle countryites feeding the darwingicklefoxiewoxie !!!
So the usual rules (locked up by dusk) don't apply.
> Can't decide whether to keep them locked up (very unhappy banties, not
> doing their job), or let nature take its course.
Give them an electric netting pen. Thats the best mid way solution -- you
control which area of ground they use, they are protected from ground
predators, and they get a decent freedom.
The survivors should
> parent smarter chicks.
Little evidence for this
Dory's chicks hit the trees the moment the
> crows call.
>
> Problem is, I'm fond of them all. Sucked to lose Dory. :-(
oooh
:((((
Mamma often loses out for her babs.
cindi
> too many birds in too small a place = birds doing what they do.
> Nothing less than the same with equines, wrong density in wrong ground at
> the wrong time = mud hell. / dust hell
Well we only have three hens, and 20 acres. Problem is, they like to
do what I'm doing, I guess - gardening... :-) More likely that's just
the best places for them to scratch since the soil is damp and easily
worked as opposed to the rest of the property that is hard as a rock
and bone dry. Although they could go in the pastures, where it's wet
and grassy, but they never do. They always just want my garden. Or
my mom's.
c.
Jill
> On Jul 22, 11:25 am, " Jill" <n...@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> too many birds in too small a place = birds doing what they do.
>> Nothing less than the same with equines, wrong density in wrong
>> ground at the wrong time = mud hell. / dust hell
>
> Well we only have three hens, and 20 acres. Problem is, they like to
> do what I'm doing, I guess - gardening... :-)
:)
Oh yes
Its not the gardening - its the fact that you are turning over bugs and
grubs for them special-like
Thats when having an electric net to fence them OUT of YOUR patch works so
well
Why don't you dig them over bits in the paddocks - especially where there
are ponies, cos if they get the idea that they can help with the poo picking
cos there are goodies to be had, you have a really useful crew.
:)
Nancy DeMarco
liked the lawn and garden - dug great big pits everywhere. But that
was my fault - the garden part. When they were chicks I took them out
every day and dug worms for them while they tumbled about, peeping
madly. They never forgot the worms in the garden.
The banties like the edge of the woods where it's nice and brushy.
They have not yet set foot in my garden.
Unfortunately the areas they like are going to be tough to put
electric netting around. Lots of ups and downs and boulders and trees
and (ugh) bittersweet. Sure, I could fence an area on the lawn, but
what good is that? Hawk bait.
The foxes are under an old shed on my neighbor's property, just a
couple feet over the property line and maybe 50' from my driveway. I
think I'll just offer to tear it down for him. At least then we'll
have less of a red carpet rolled out for them - deluxe accommodations
and easy meals.
Nancy
Cricket
" Jill" <ne...@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7cp1irF...@mid.individual.net...
Preferably while sitting on top of the shed, under the bedroom window, at
5:30 in the morning.
Extra points for driving the dog bonkers while doing so.
;>D
Cricket