Chip Shortages - Hey, Try ANALOG

[25.BX943]

Everyone is screaming about chip shortages. The US
automotive industry can barely build any new models
because they can't get components for the embedded
computers and servo-systems. I recently saw a news
thing about manufacturers in many industries with
the same complaints - "Aaaugh ! We can't build our
industrial water heaters !!! How will we build
our air-conditioning systems for the new Wal-Mart ?
How can sewerage flow without a bank of servers ?"

Well folks, DO bear in mind that all-digital is a
relatively new thing. You don't NEED digital parts
to make an automobile work properly. You don't NEED
a microcontroller to to regulate your industrial
water heater. Mass quantities of things don't NEED
a fancy web interface or digital read-outs. Depending,
some apps don't even need a single transistor, much
less a CPU.

Analog electric controls/regulators worked very well
for 100 years - analog also includes regulators and
controls for machine tools and big engines and such
and that goes back even further.

Not QUITE as exact as modern digital - but often
"more than good enough". OK, you probably won't be
able to tweak it from Moscow - but now is that such
a BAD thing ? Hey, hire a few humans to read the
gauges and turn the knobs ....

Amazing things can, and were, done with a handful of
resistors and capacitors, mechanical sensors, inductors
and a few colored light-bulbs. Add a few transistors
(or vacuum tubes) and you could get to the moon.

So, consider analog. It MIGHT fit your problem of
the moment. Until (if) the USA/EU get back into
home-grown microcontrollers and related junk analog
might be your ONLY way to go. Any more nastiness
with China/Taiwan/Korea and our present trickle
could be totally cut off. So, the time to think
whether, and how, analog might solve your production
issues is NOW. Those hypothetical new chip factories
could, would, take a few YEARS to build - and where
do you get the parts needed to control production
machinery ? It's VERY precise work.

Hmm ... we could probably build cold-cathode vacuum
tubes now about five millimeters tall - nano-textured
cathode that wants to emit electrons. For logic
purposes you don't need a lot of current .......

[25.BX943]

On 3/4/22 10:36 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 21:40:19 -0500, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>
>> Everyone is screaming about chip shortages.
>

> Yeah, I read about the recent Canadian chip crisis.
>
> <https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/frito-lay-chips-loblaw-1.6360274>


Well, if Canada actually DID anything they'd be
concerned about the OTHER kind of chips :-)

[Marc Haber]

"25.BX943" <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>Well folks, DO bear in mind that all-digital is a
>relatively new thing. You don't NEED digital parts
>to make an automobile work properly.

Reality check please, dead anonymous friend.

You NEED digital parts to build an automobile that conforms to current
pollution standards.

While you could probably build such a car using analog ciruitry only,
those cars would be in production 2026 because you'd need to start
from scratch with the engine control circuitry.

And even that car would probably roll, but many country would not
accept it since there are demands from authorities to be able to read
out pollution data "on the road" over a standardized digital
interface.

Greetings
Marc
--
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

[Robert Heller]

"chips" include analog chips and even transistors. It is not just "digital"
chips that are in short supply. All sorts of *silicon* chips are in short
supply. At this point *silicon* parts are ubiquitous in virtually all
industries.

At Sat, 05 Mar 2022 09:45:37 +0100 Marc Haber <mh+usene...@zugschl.us> wrote:

>
> "25.BX943" <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
> >Well folks, DO bear in mind that all-digital is a
> >relatively new thing. You don't NEED digital parts
> >to make an automobile work properly.
>
> Reality check please, dead anonymous friend.
>
> You NEED digital parts to build an automobile that conforms to current
> pollution standards.
>
> While you could probably build such a car using analog ciruitry only,
> those cars would be in production 2026 because you'd need to start
> from scratch with the engine control circuitry.
>
> And even that car would probably roll, but many country would not
> accept it since there are demands from authorities to be able to read
> out pollution data "on the road" over a standardized digital
> interface.
>
> Greetings
> Marc

--

Robert Heller -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364
Deepwoods Software -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Linux Administration Services
hel...@deepsoft.com -- Webhosting Services

[25.BX943]

On 3/5/22 3:45 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
> "25.BX943" <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>> Well folks, DO bear in mind that all-digital is a
>> relatively new thing. You don't NEED digital parts
>> to make an automobile work properly.
>
> Reality check please, dead anonymous friend.
>
> You NEED digital parts to build an automobile that conforms to current
> pollution standards.

Change the standards until the crisis is over. OR you can
bicycle 15 miles to work and market in the snow like those
good little Maoists from the old newsreels.

Oh, and you may not need such exact control as you think
to get decent performance/emissions figures.

> While you could probably build such a car using analog ciruitry only,
> those cars would be in production 2026 because you'd need to start

> from scratch with the engine control circuitry.\\


There is no "engine-control circuitry" in a '57 Chevy
beyond the points-n-coil. It Just Works.

> And even that car would probably roll, but many country would not
> accept it since there are demands from authorities to be able to read
> out pollution data "on the road" over a standardized digital
> interface.

Let's see ... put up with the bureaucrats OR have transportation ?
Lemme think about that for 0.001 seconds .......

[25.BX943]

On 3/5/22 8:00 AM, Robert Heller wrote:
> "chips" include analog chips and even transistors. It is not just "digital"
> chips that are in short supply. All sorts of *silicon* chips are in short
> supply. At this point *silicon* parts are ubiquitous in virtually all
> industries.

Go on DigiKey or Mouser or Newark ... plenty of transistors
of every variety. Transistors are 1940s tech and a LOT easier
to make than CPUs/MPUs. FETs are 60s tech (ok, ok, some
Russian proposed (demonstrated?) something like an FET in
the early 1900s but it couldn't be commercialized).

Regardless ... If you want to do business, if you want to STAY
in business, You May Have No CHOICE but to go old-school. The
more devices made without digital the more chips there are (for
now) for the applications that just HAVE to be digital. The
world situation does not favor a steady, or maybe even ANY,
supply of modern chips.

That's the horrible truth. Deal. We've about used up the
stockpiles now, some industries are completely dry.

Oh, you CAN do low-speed data transmission over shortwave ...
you just have to decide what's important. I'll check into
how to make a 20-baud modem using only analog parts and,
hmm, there were FAXes before microchips too. The world
got by OK, albeit a bit more slowly.

What did the old Circuit Cellar dude often say ... that his
favorite programming language was 'solder' :-)

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 05/03/2022 16:21, 25.BX943 wrote:
> There is no "engine-control circuitry" in a '57 Chevy
>   beyond the points-n-coil. It Just Works.

Actually there is quite a bit, the carburettor will have at leasts two
jets and either a damper or an acceleration pump to take care of sudden
increases in throttle, and the spark will be centrifugally advanced and
vacuum advanced as well.

The contact gap on the points will need adjusting every few thousand
miles, because that's the nature of wear on the cam follower

Solid state ECMS Just Work Better. Less maintenance, better economy,
more reliable. Lower emissions.

The only downside is you need a computer and a scope to fix em.


--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

[25.BX943]

On 3/5/22 5:36 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/03/2022 16:21, 25.BX943 wrote:
>> There is no "engine-control circuitry" in a '57 Chevy
>>    beyond the points-n-coil. It Just Works.
>
> Actually there is quite a bit, the carburettor will have at leasts two
> jets and either a damper or an acceleration pump to take care of sudden
> increases in throttle, and the spark will be centrifugally advanced and
> vacuum advanced as well.

But again, 'analog' and non-electronic.

Up into the early 60s there were many simply ingenious
and simple "mechanical computing" fixes for regulating
machines. Digital may be "better" - but if you can't
GET the digital components reliably, or at all, what
are you gonna do ? Is it "Internet or Hunting & Gathering"
now, all or nothing ??? McDonalds closes so you have to
starve to death ?

I daresay that with the deteriorating relationships
with, and between, the people we decided should make
all the advanced chips in the world ....

I didn't cause it, I'm just suggesting a time-tested
work-around. Heresy ???

> The contact gap on the points will need adjusting every few thousand
> miles, because that's the nature of wear on the cam follower

It's easy to adjust the points. I think we can still make/get
simpler components like Hall-effect switches and the minimums
needed to make a pointless capacitive-discharge ignition system.
I remember conversion kits for the older cars.

We don't exactly have to go back to Watt steam engine for
everything but your tail-lights do not have to be CAN-Buss
controlled. They used to have paper things called "road maps"
and a device called an analog AM/FM radio with a twist knob
that actually connected to a rotary variable cap for tuning -
the "display" was a paper strip with numbers printed on it.
Just turn the knob and The Beatles would come out !

> Solid state ECMS Just Work Better. Less maintenance, better economy,
> more reliable. Lower emissions.
>
> The only downside is you need a computer and a scope to fix em.

And the things themselves are "computers" - indeed containing
some of the very chips you can't buy now .....

Analog can be "good enough" for a lot of uses we now just
mindlessly throw dedicated microcontrollers and CPUs at.
If "good enough" is all you can get in a timely and affordable
fashion then, well, only one way to go.

SOME devices just HAVE to be digital to be worth a damn. IF
we can move over to analog for the ones that don't, it can
mean an adequate supply of the specialty chips for where
we really need them.

In THEORY, we could have semi-decent chip factories again in
the USA and EU - but they don't grow overnight like mushrooms.
We're talking YEARS, we're talking VERY specialized and
expensive equipment (some of which will fit into that "SOME
devices" category. Yeilds are often fer-crap too for a year
of so until they get everything tuned-in. I'd rate such
factories as a "national-security imperative", but even
The Bomb took several years to create despite unlimited
govt funding.

[Carlos E.R.]

You can not build a car now without the electronics. You have to drop
the injection system and go back to carburators, so go back to
manufacture the old engines. Forget any new engine. Forget security
features that are now mandatory in the braking and transmissions systems.

Retooling the factories to build those old cars also takes years (not
counting the time needed to undo administrative and law changes to drop
all pollution and safety regulations).

Ah, and the factories themselves need electronics to run.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Just buy them from India. I think they are still producing 50 year old
designs.

Of course one could set up a non electronic factory. Back in the 1960s
few computers existed but cars were manufactured. Just not very good
cars. without CNC lathes its hard to get down to micron tolerances.
Stuff wore out quickly.



--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

[Tauno Voipio]

A 1960's car cannot pass the current safety and pollution requirements,
even backward sideways.

--

-TV

[The Natural Philosopher]

So ditch the stupid eco requirements.

--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

[25.BX943]

You absolutely CAN. I see pre-electronics cars driving
around all the time.

> You have to drop the injection system and go back to carburators,

Diesel engines especially had injection without
electronics for a VERY long time. will work for
cars too. Also, carbs also JUST WORKED. The later
generations we actually quite sophisticated devices.

> so go back to
> manufacture the old engines. Forget any new engine. Forget security
> features that are now mandatory in the braking and transmissions systems.

Yep. You've gotta do what you've gotta do. The need
for automobiles doesn't go away - but what you're
using to BUILD them may (and to a point HAS).

And dump the bureaucrats - or grease them to pass an
'emergency exemption' for a few digital niceties.
Biden won't, but he and his party are headed towards
the dumpster.

> Retooling the factories to build those old cars also takes years (not
> counting the time needed to undo administrative and law changes to drop
> all pollution and safety regulations).

I bet the old tooling, at least for a number of models, is
still in a shed somewhere. Existing CNC machine tools could
re-create missing bits pretty quick too. While not glamorous,
a Chevy Nova was *functional*.

> Ah, and the factories themselves need electronics to run.

Well, they've got what they've got - so they'd better find
ways to make-do. Replacing dead digital bits with analog
is going to be the way of things for a number of years,
a decade+ if we can't swing those domestic chip factories.

I've encountered many in this thread who are somehow convinced
that there was no world before digital, that nothing could be
done. Apparently everybody was riding mules and hand-threshing
the grain right up until the early 70s ........

[Bobbie Sellers]

On 3/9/22 08:02, 25.BX943 wrote:

But if you don't have an analog computer running Linux this is
completlely off topic in comp.os.linux.misc.

Going back to analog would mean abandoning a large part of the progress
toward less pollution.

> On 3/9/22 5:01 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-03-06 03:01, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>> On 3/5/22 5:36 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 05/03/2022 16:21, 25.BX943 wrote:

Snipped because you have been tricked by a troll hitting
unrelated news groups.

bliss

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 09/03/2022 16:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 3/9/22 08:02, 25.BX943 wrote:
>
> But if you don't have an analog computer running Linux this is
> completlely off topic in comp.os.linux.misc.
>
> Going back to analog would mean abandoning a large part of the progress
> toward less pollution.

Depends on how much 'pollution' a computer chip generates, and whether
less 'pollution' is, in fact, 'progress'...and of course, whether
'progress' is 'good'

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2022-03-09, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Of course one could set up a non electronic factory. Back in the 1960s
> few computers existed but cars were manufactured. Just not very good
> cars. without CNC lathes its hard to get down to micron tolerances.
> Stuff wore out quickly.

But was easily repaired or replaced.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

[25.BX943]

"Unrelated" ? But they ARE related - an electronics
group (note thread subject), a computer group (note
discussions about digital solutions), and two general
political group (note all this DOES have major
political ramifications for the USA and allies and,
yes, even our enemies).

Seems like a perfectly good set of relations, given
the subject being discussed.

Or maybe you just don't want to entertain what I'm
telling you ? If the chip shortages go on much longer
you won't have any choice. It's either get by with
a lot more analog solutions or NOTHING. Nothing does
not pay very well and won't get you to the farmers
market either (and the farmer is NOT going to be
hand-threshing the grain for you - it'll be diesel
equipment rigged to run without digital electronics).

[25.BX943]

On 3/9/22 2:16 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 09/03/2022 16:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>> On 3/9/22 08:02, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>
>> But if you don't have an analog computer running Linux this is
>> completlely off topic in comp.os.linux.misc.
>>
>> Going back to analog would mean abandoning a large part of the progress
>> toward less pollution.
>
> Depends on how much 'pollution' a computer chip generates, and whether
> less 'pollution' is, in fact, 'progress'...and of course, whether
> 'progress' is 'good'

"Progress" is one of those words that lends itself to
considerable abuse. Often it's 'progress' towards the
cliff :-)

But none of that is what I've been aiming at here.
WHAT IF YOU CAN'T *GET* those nice digital chips ?
Well, for some right now, YOU CAN'T. If the political
situation gets any worse you won't be able to get any
for YEARS, maybe a DECADE. I'm not making this up, it's
the Real News Headlines.

So a Plan-B is required. Preferably that does not involve
regressing to the stone age or stepping off any cliffs.

There was a rich and very functional world of devices
BEFORE the cheap super-duper digital chips. Digital
maybe did it better and cheaper - but if you can't GET
the things then you MUST take a step back and look to
analog electronics and even "mechanical computing"
solutions to critical systems. Denial does not make
the Chinese deliver chips.

Ever been in a major disaster zone - the lights won't
come on because all the wires are strewn on the ground,
the refrig doesn't work, the stores are closed and it
is irrelevant because the roads are blocked with heavy
debris and when you want water nothing comes out of
the tap. It's Plan-B time - and you'd better HAVE one.
The tasty fruits of Civilization can be so easily
yanked away.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 09/03/2022 21:39, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-03-09, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Of course one could set up a non electronic factory. Back in the 1960s
>> few computers existed but cars were manufactured. Just not very good
>> cars. without CNC lathes its hard to get down to micron tolerances.
>> Stuff wore out quickly.
>
> But was easily repaired or replaced.
>

Sort of. memories of lying on back in a snowy car park replacing
radiator bottom hoses.. or trying to drop a crank far enough with the
engine in to install new main bearing shells,,,

--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 10/03/2022 01:05, 25.BX943 wrote:
> Or maybe you just don't want to entertain what I'm
>   telling you ? If the chip shortages go on much longer
>   you won't have any choice. It's either get by with
>   a lot more analog solutions or NOTHING.

To an extent, yes. But old cars continue to work, and anyway what has
happened is two massive supply train shocks - COVID and Putin - and the
market will - is - responding.

Its going to be a rough couple of years all right, but some semblance of
a new normality will emerge.

--
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
very definition of slavery.

Jonathan Swift

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 10/03/2022 01:17, 25.BX943 wrote:
> On 3/9/22 2:16 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 09/03/2022 16:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>> On 3/9/22 08:02, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>
>>> But if you don't have an analog computer running Linux this is
>>> completlely off topic in comp.os.linux.misc.
>>>
>>> Going back to analog would mean abandoning a large part of the progress
>>> toward less pollution.
>>
>> Depends on how much 'pollution' a computer chip generates, and whether
>> less 'pollution' is, in fact, 'progress'...and of course, whether
>> 'progress' is 'good'
>
>   "Progress" is one of those words that lends itself to
>   considerable abuse. Often it's 'progress' towards the
>   cliff  :-)
>
>   But none of that is what I've been aiming at here.
>   WHAT IF YOU CAN'T *GET* those nice digital chips ?
>   Well, for some right now, YOU CAN'T. If the political
>   situation gets any worse you won't be able to get any
>   for YEARS, maybe a DECADE. I'm not making this up, it's
>   the Real News Headlines.
>

Well how long does it take to build a chip foundry?

>   So a Plan-B is required. Preferably that does not involve
>   regressing to the stone age or stepping off any cliffs.
>

Exactly. There are other chip manufacturers around. Price of chips may
increase, people will then pay engineers to make better use of them, so
invest in red hat, not microsoft :-)

>   There was a rich and very functional world of devices
>   BEFORE the cheap super-duper digital chips. Digital
>   maybe did it better and cheaper - but if you can't GET
>   the things then you MUST take a step back and look to
>   analog electronics and even "mechanical computing"
>   solutions to critical systems. Denial does not make
>   the Chinese deliver chips.
>

Analog is still made and is a healthy market, its just not as good as
digital for nearly all apps where digital predominates.

>   Ever been in a major disaster zone - the lights won't
>   come on because all the wires are strewn on the ground,
>   the refrig doesn't work, the stores are closed and it
>   is irrelevant because the roads are blocked with heavy
>   debris and when you want water nothing comes out of
>   the tap. It's Plan-B time - and you'd better HAVE one.
>   The tasty fruits of Civilization can be so easily
>   yanked away.

Try reading Joseph Tainter's 'collapse of complex civilizations' In it
he recounts a report from IIRC a British army officer in WWI who entered
a town that had been under effective siege for 10 days. Just 10 days.
Dead bodies littered the street, looting was rife, there was no water,
there was sewage and rubbish everywhere. Law and order had completely
broken down.

That's why those green folks want to make you dependent on windmills and
solar panels that stop working when the sun oint shine and the wind
don't blow. To smash civilization. It's a tenet of Marxism that the only
thing stopping a better world is the people and systems that run this
one. So if they are smashed, instant Utopia.

Today, without electricity, urban civilisation collapses.
No heating - its all electronically controlled.
No water, its all pumped electrically
No sewage disposal , its all pumped electrically
No refrigeration .
No fuel at the pump - its pumped electrically
No banking system - all digitally linked.
Cities in less than a fortnight would become prisons where no one could
escape except by walking - and how many people can do that these days -
with no water, no access to healthcare, no food, no money...

Who needs nuclear weapons? Just ensure the cities run on 'renewable'
energy, and wait...

Whether or not you can manufacture new cars is simply as irrelevant as
declaring yourself to be a woman.

Nature doesn't care. Your body needs a hygienic environment with clean
food and water to survive.

A modern city without electricity provides none of them...


--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

[25.BX943]

If they are broken, no more sense of mission (unlike Ukrainians)
then yes that can happen. Basically Lord Of The Flies stuff.

> That's why those green folks want to make you dependent on windmills and
> solar panels that stop working when the sun oint shine and the wind
> don't blow. To smash civilization. It's a tenet of Marxism that the only
> thing stopping a better world is the people and systems that run this
> one. So if they are smashed, instant Utopia.

None of that stuff works very well after a major hurricane
rips it all out of the ground either ....

As for the Great Marxist Plan ... yea, finding ways to
restrict mobility and any hint of independence are on
their list. They loved Covid, and it was magically
replaced by high fuel prices and inflation - more
things to keep you locked in your hovel with nothing
but the carefully censored Big Social Media sources
to fill your brain.

And NAZIs ain't any better. The main diff is which side
of your head they hold the gun to.

> Today, without electricity, urban civilisation collapses.
> No heating - its all electronically controlled.
> No water, its all pumped electrically
> No sewage disposal , its all pumped electrically
> No refrigeration .
> No fuel at the pump - its pumped electrically
> No banking system - all digitally linked.
> Cities in less than a fortnight would become prisons where no one could
> escape except by walking - and how many people can do that these days -
> with no water, no access to healthcare, no food, no money...

The WORST place to be in a real crisis is in a large
city. EVERYTHING is trucked in. If the trucks can't
run anymore then it's down to which sauce is best
for when you Serve Man.

Urban survival skills are only good for when you have
a working city. The closest thing to farming skills
are how to grow pot plants on your windowledge.

> Who needs nuclear weapons? Just ensure the cities run on 'renewable'
> energy, and wait...

'Renewable' CAN work ... just NOT NOW, not for a number
of decades. Until then you do NOT rely on it.

> Whether or not you can manufacture new cars is simply as irrelevant as
> declaring yourself to be a woman.
>
> Nature doesn't care. Your body needs a hygienic environment with clean
> food and water to survive.

Actually, you CAN live REALLY nasty.

> A modern city without electricity provides none of them...

We have been all-electric for almost 100 years now.
There is little of worth or practical function that
can work without electricity. Lights go out, the
flame of civilization goes out. 1st-world countries
are the most vulnerable, so much further to fall.

ANYway - my POINT here was to remind people that there
are a lot of digital alternatives - simpler, cheaper,
easier-2-get components. A chip shortage should not
mean you give up and go home to die.

Yes, some of us make a living as programmers and IT
administrators. Non-Digital solutions sound like a
pink slip. There will still be plenty of digital
however - even if there are not enough of the parts
we commonly see in embedded systems. And hey, you
COULD think of analog design as a SORT of programming ...
you can do logic, signal processing, feedback control,
long-range communications and all sorts of neat and
valuable things.

Oh, try this out :
https://phys.org/news/2022-03-physicists-frequencies-easily-special-circuitry.html
Physicists show how frequencies can easily be multiplied without
special circuitry

Non-linear materials, lots of useful harmonics with a tenth
the power consumption and transistors of current methods -
and unlike quartz crystals THESE can be micron-sized
specks. 'Analog' ain't just resistors and caps.

[25.BX943]

On 3/10/22 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/03/2022 01:05, 25.BX943 wrote:
>> Or maybe you just don't want to entertain what I'm
>>    telling you ? If the chip shortages go on much longer
>>    you won't have any choice. It's either get by with
>>    a lot more analog solutions or NOTHING.
>
> To an extent, yes. But old cars continue to work,

The GreenWokies want them BANNED. The easiest way would
be to forbid insurance for cars of a certain age (and tech).

Can't keep reminding people that pre-digital DID work, and
didn't spy on you either.

> and anyway what has
> happened is two massive supply train shocks - COVID and Putin - and the
> market will - is - responding.

Not in an especially GOOD way alas ...

> Its going to be a rough couple of years all right, but some semblance of
> a new normality will emerge.

Yea, but WHAT "new normal" ???

How are things in Argentina these days ?

[25.BX943]

On 3/10/22 4:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 09/03/2022 21:39, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2022-03-09, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Of course one could set up a non electronic factory. Back in the 1960s
>>> few computers existed but cars were manufactured. Just not very good
>>> cars. without CNC lathes its hard to get down to micron tolerances.
>>> Stuff wore out quickly.
>>
>> But was easily repaired or replaced.
>>
> Sort of. memories of lying on back in a snowy car park replacing
> radiator bottom hoses.. or trying to drop a crank far enough with the
> engine in to install new main bearing shells,,,

Aww ... the materials are better these days. Not so
unusual to see a car with 100k that still has the
original hoses, gaskets, belts and such (sometimes,
so the wrenches tell me, the original motor oil :-)

The metallurgy is better too. You might not get to
0.0001 tolerances with non-CNC but it might not
matter all that much for a piston engine.

Anyway, they WORKED. Digitally-controlled fuel injection
is a bit better, but carbs work too and for an extra
few bucks could work even better (consider a compressed
air stream over the fuel jets instead of slow old aspirated).

[The Natural Philosopher]

Hard to tell. Its a complex chaotic non linear system, is the world economy.
Despite conspiracy theories, and politicians' claims, no one is in
charge of it, either.,
So it will find a new strange attractor somewhere. Might be 95%
population collapse and back to the iron age. If someone doesn't kick
the Greens out of context.

Might be a neat post industrial nuclear electric society. Both of these
represent areas of system stability.

>   How are things in Argentina these days ?
>

No idea.

--
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of
intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every
criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
power-directed system of thought.”
Sir Roger Scruton

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 11/03/2022 03:54, 25.BX943 wrote:
> On 3/10/22 4:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 09/03/2022 21:39, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2022-03-09, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course one could set up a non electronic factory. Back in the 1960s
>>>> few computers existed but cars were manufactured. Just not very good
>>>> cars. without CNC lathes its hard to get down to micron tolerances.
>>>> Stuff wore out quickly.
>>>
>>> But was easily repaired or replaced.
>>>
>> Sort of. memories of lying on back in a snowy car park replacing
>> radiator bottom hoses.. or trying to drop a crank far enough with the
>> engine in to install new main bearing shells,,,
>
>   Aww ... the materials are better these days.

One of the benefits of computer controlled smelting...

Not so
>   unusual to see a car with 100k that still has the
>   original hoses, gaskets, belts and such (sometimes,
>   so the wrenches tell me, the original motor oil :-)
>
>   The metallurgy is better too. You might not get to
>   0.0001 tolerances with non-CNC but it might not
>   matter all that much for a piston engine.
>

The metallurgy cannot be maintained without digital electronics.

>   Anyway, they WORKED. Digitally-controlled fuel injection
>   is a bit better, but carbs work too and for an extra
>   few bucks could work even better (consider a compressed
>   air stream over the fuel jets instead of slow old aspirated).

All a carb does is increase fuel usage and unburnt fuel, and all a
sloppy engine does is burn excess oil and need its plug cleaning a lot.

Starting from iron ore and wood, I think I could just about make a steam
engine without more than a basic boring device.

Certainly couldn't make a carb.

Remember all the milling machines and lathes run on electricity too.

Been a long time since overhead belt drives off steam engine powered
shafts....

--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

[Rich]

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Remember all the milling machines and lathes run on electricity too.

Not only do the run on electricity, but very many of them today are
digitally controlled CNC mills or lathes.

While a good machinist can mill or turn an item to nearly the same
tolerance, in the time it takes him/her to do so, the CNC machine has
turned out twenty or more identically milled/turned parts.

[Carlos E.R.]

Not over here. If they do not pass the mandatory yearly (for old cars it
is yearly) inspection, which includes a pollution test, they are grounded.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

Can't be done over here, would take years.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-03-10 10:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/03/2022 01:17, 25.BX943 wrote:
>> On 3/9/22 2:16 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 09/03/2022 16:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>> On 3/9/22 08:02, 25.BX943 wrote:


>>    Ever been in a major disaster zone - the lights won't
>>    come on because all the wires are strewn on the ground,
>>    the refrig doesn't work, the stores are closed and it
>>    is irrelevant because the roads are blocked with heavy
>>    debris and when you want water nothing comes out of
>>    the tap. It's Plan-B time - and you'd better HAVE one.
>>    The tasty fruits of Civilization can be so easily
>>    yanked away.
>
> Try reading Joseph Tainter's 'collapse of complex civilizations' In it
> he recounts a report from IIRC a British army officer in WWI who entered
> a town that had been under effective siege for 10 days. Just 10 days.
> Dead bodies littered the street, looting was rife, there was no water,
> there was sewage and rubbish everywhere. Law and order had completely
> broken down.
>
> That's why those green folks want to make you dependent on windmills and
> solar panels that stop working when the sun oint shine and the wind
> don't blow. To smash civilization. It's a tenet of Marxism that the only
> thing stopping a better world is the people and systems that run this
> one. So if they are smashed, instant Utopia.

Solar and wind do not depend on fuel shortages from Russia. Depending on
design, you don't even depend on the network going down.



--
Cheers, Carlos.

[25.BX943]

On 3/11/22 3:45 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 11/03/2022 03:54, 25.BX943 wrote:
>> On 3/10/22 4:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 09/03/2022 21:39, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>> On 2022-03-09, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Of course one could set up a non electronic factory. Back in the 1960s
>>>>> few computers existed but cars were manufactured. Just not very good
>>>>> cars. without CNC lathes its hard to get down to micron tolerances.
>>>>> Stuff wore out quickly.
>>>>
>>>> But was easily repaired or replaced.
>>>>
>>> Sort of. memories of lying on back in a snowy car park replacing
>>> radiator bottom hoses.. or trying to drop a crank far enough with the
>>> engine in to install new main bearing shells,,,
>>
>>    Aww ... the materials are better these days.
>
> One of the benefits of computer controlled smelting...
>
>
>  Not so

The older ways were 'adequate'.

Actually, the "materials" I was talking about
were more in the line of gasket materials and
other plastics. Those are very important to
engine longevity.

>>    unusual to see a car with 100k that still has the
>>    original hoses, gaskets, belts and such (sometimes,
>>    so the wrenches tell me, the original motor oil :-)
>>
>>    The metallurgy is better too. You might not get to
>>    0.0001 tolerances with non-CNC but it might not
>>    matter all that much for a piston engine.
>>
> The metallurgy cannot be maintained without digital electronics.

Most was invented before digital control.

And then nobody bothered trying analog methods
once those cheapo digital chips arrived ...

Bother now.

>>    Anyway, they WORKED. Digitally-controlled fuel injection
>>    is a bit better, but carbs work too and for an extra
>>    few bucks could work even better (consider a compressed
>>    air stream over the fuel jets instead of slow old aspirated).
>
> All a carb does is increase fuel usage and unburnt fuel, and all a
> sloppy engine does is burn excess oil and need its plug cleaning a lot.

Actually, carbs can be greatly improved by using
compressed air over the jet orifices - ultra-vaporizes
the fuel. Can even be superior to port injection. They
never bothered in the old days, but it's a cheap and
easy fix.

> Starting from iron ore and wood, I think I could just about make a steam
> engine without more than a basic boring device.
>
> Certainly couldn't make a carb.
>
> Remember all the milling machines and lathes run on electricity too.
>
> Been a long time since overhead belt drives off steam engine powered
> shafts....

Just wait, at the rate things are going to hell it won't
be long before you hear it again :-)

Anyway, I think I hear programmers afraid of losing their
jobs to practical electronics tekkies :-)

Fear not, there will still be plenty of digital - just not
the near-100% market share we've been seeing.

[25.BX943]

On 3/11/22 8:01 AM, Rich wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Remember all the milling machines and lathes run on electricity too.
>
> Not only do the run on electricity, but very many of them today are
> digitally controlled CNC mills or lathes.

And when their little brains burn out and you can't
get replacement parts ..... ???

> While a good machinist can mill or turn an item to nearly the same
> tolerance, in the time it takes him/her to do so, the CNC machine has
> turned out twenty or more identically milled/turned parts.

Oh MY ! The audacity of it all ! Training HUMANS to
do precision work ???!!! :-)

Gee, you might have to PAY them good money !

Oh well, all I've been hearing is DENIAL. The chips
will flow in abundance forever and ever ...

Well, AIN'T

Now what ? Where's the Plan-B ?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Odd. in UK and I think USA very old cars are exempted from those

But relax, without electronics or electricity, they wont be able to do
those tests anyway :-)


--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Just leave the EU carlos. You know it makes sense.

BUT as I pointed out, if you haven't any electronics you can perform the
tests anyway.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I am afraid that in practical terms they do Carlos.

Unless you have extensive hydro with a generation capacity in excess of
windmill power, only gas can get you through times of no wind and no
sun. If you have shut down all your coal and nuclear because your green
politicians were paid by he Kremlin to do so. As is now becoming apparent...

(Or as happened in Spain, diesel, which was being sold as solar power
day *and* night to get the subsidies!!)

Depending on
> design, you don't even depend on the network going down.
>
>
>


--

“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

[The Natural Philosopher]

Plan B is let China and Russia take over Europe and the USA, eliminate
democracy, eliminate 'net zero', and the Greens and run the world for
the benefit of men in dark suits with paid bodyguards.

Putin's homeboy or the gulags - your choice.

[Rich]

In comp.os.linux.misc 25.BX943 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
> On 3/11/22 8:01 AM, Rich wrote:
>> In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Remember all the milling machines and lathes run on electricity too.
>>
>> Not only do the run on electricity, but very many of them today are
>> digitally controlled CNC mills or lathes.
>
> And when their little brains burn out and you can't
> get replacement parts ..... ???

Then the businesses using them encounter a different sort of "supply
chain shortage" -- that of a shortage of skilled humans and a shortage
of manually operated machines (many of which were scrapped years ago,
so not as many remain). So instead of turning out 1,000 widgets a day,
they now have to make do with 15 widgets a day.

>> While a good machinist can mill or turn an item to nearly the same
>> tolerance, in the time it takes him/her to do so, the CNC machine
>> has turned out twenty or more identically milled/turned parts.
>
> Oh MY ! The audacity of it all ! Training HUMANS to
> do precision work ???!!! :-)

Not at all relevant to what I quoted. My quote was that one CNC machine
can outperform one human -- which is why the CNC machines took over.
Faster, no lunch/bathroom/smoke breaks, no healthcare costs, etc.

> Now what ? Where's the Plan-B ?

Most businesses don't have one. But maybe this shortage will cause
them to consider having one.

[Rich]

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

In the US it varies by state. In my state, it used to be that the car
was not exempt, but if one spent X dollars (I think it was $400 when
the emissions tests first arrived) on repairing it to meet the test,
and it still did not meet, then one could get an exemption (only good
till the next test, and they were every two years). The only other
alternative was registering as an "antique" car, which brought about
restrictions on when it could be driven (weekends/holidays only) on the
public roads.

But I think the politicians changed things later, and now if the car is
over X years (I forget how much, but something on the order of 20 or
25) then it does not have to be tested anymore at all.

[Charlie Gibbs]

Oh, they have one. Go to the government for a handout.

[Carlos E.R.]

No, it doesn't.

>
> BUT as I pointed out, if you haven't any electronics you can perform the
> tests anyway.
>
>


--

Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

Nope. I had an old car, and it wasn't exempt if I wanted to use it on
the road.

Now, if the car is registered as "historic", it is exempt, but you can
not make "normal" use of it.

>
> But relax, without electronics or electricity, they wont be able to do
> those tests anyway :-)

There is that.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[25.BX943]

Indeed :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roper_steam_velocipede

Guess we'll be seeing a lot of those soon now. Wear
yer mask if downwind :-)

Can't use horses or mules anymore alas, PETA will getcha
for that ! Aren't really ENOUGH of either beast to take
the place of autos these days either. Oh, and the poop
issue :-) BUT, GrandDad walked over the poop anyhow
and survived and thrived. Besides, horses and mules
are "solar powered" - grass in, work (and poop) out.

Anyway, 'analog' non-digital autos worked quite well.
They could be considerably improved - they just didn't
try very hard in the 70s. A few tweaks and carbs can
do a lot better job of vaporizing fuel - and you'd
get similar figures to a port-injected vehicle.

If you live somewhere insanely dedicated to turning all
those old cars into cubes - well - SELECT DIFFERENT
LEADERSHIP. Practical always trumps pie-in-the-sky
ideological BS.