finishing with tung oil
Don Dillon
to finishing with pure tung oil and and experiencing the high glossy finish
I've seen on others bowls done this way. Well, I was less than impressed.
First, one of the bowls sucked up the oil like it was drinking martinis
during lunch. On the other less porous bowls, there just wasn't that glass
shininess that I was expecting to coax from the surface. Can you really get
a hard glassy finish from just tung oil, or are these people also waxing and
buffing and putting in 300 hours of hand rubbed finish time and just to
proud to say so?
don
John Lucas
Don
Back when I used to do furniture I used a Tung oil and Polyurethane
mixture. I think it was 1part Poly to 7 parts Tung oil. I applied it
with 600 grit wet or dry paper. It formed a sort of slurry that filled
the grain and helped to get a glossy finish. John Lucas
Steven D. Russell
Pure Tung Oil creates a matte finish when dried. If you look at a smear
of it on a non-absorbent substrate you will see that when dried, it
exhibits a fine wrinkled surface. If you want a quick high gloss Tung
Oil finish, you need to be using Polymerized Tung Oil. Not only will it
dry faster, it can be built up to a very high gloss in short order.
Pure Tung Oil cures by polymerization and autoxidation, whereas
Polymerized Tung Oil has been heated to complete the polymerization
portion of the equation and therefore, cures by oil oxidation and
evaporation of its thinners. However, even with Polymerized Tung Oil,
you have to apply more than one coat to get a high gloss finish. Two to
three coats, (first thinned 50%) is sufficient to create a high gloss
with the Polymerized Tung Oil finishes.
Early next year, I will have a comprehensive review of penetrating oil
finishes in "Woodturning" magazine. My testing covered 75 different oil
finishes and gives an in-depth overview of the polymerization process.
In addition, tips to creating better oil finishes are discussed, as well
as layering different oil finishes for maximum grain enhancement. If you
have any additional questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Good luck to you and best regards in all of your woodturning endeavours!
--
Letting the chips fly...
Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas
Website coming soon!
PJ3
to read your results?? I for one really enjoyed reading your answer here
and really look forward to reading your results. Do you have any comments
on the mixing of Tung and a polyurethane, and what the expected results
might be...
PJ
"Steven D. Russell" <ben...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:39EB7396...@flash.net...
Kip055
>to finishing with pure tung oil
DON
I have had decent results with a nominal 1/1/1 mix of pure tung oil, gloss
polyurethane and thinner. A sealer coat of Deft first is helpful. Wipe the
mixture on, wipe off and let sit overnight, then rub with steel wool or
Scotchbrite. I usually use multiple coats, depending on the wood and after the
final coat is dry buff with tripoli and apply a paste wax. Please feel free to
email me if this isn't a clear explanation and/or you have other questions
about the procedure. Good luck in getting the gloss you want!
By the way, I have a son who works for Agilent in Dallas-where are you located?
Kip Powers
Port Arthur, TX
cindy drozda
I do enjoy your posts and test results...looking forward to the article on
oil finishes next year...will you keep us posted about which issue of
Woodturning it appears in (for those who don't subscribe)?
My question is: Where can you get Polymerized Tung oil? Preferably thinned
with citrus or not thinned at all (so I can choose my thinner). Sutherland
& Wells used to have a product like that available through Garrett Wade,
but it is not in the current catalogue.
Also: What do you think of polymerized linseed oil? Have you used
"Tru-oil" (polymerized linseed oil)? Any benefit to mixing polymerized
tung and linseed oils?
I have been using the Tru-oil with good results - dries in 2 hours and
gives a good looking fairly waterproof finish in 2 or 3 coats (depending
on the wood species). The driers that enable it to dry in 2 hours must be
toxic, so I don't use it on things that might contact food...
I envy your ability to get along with very little sleep...I keep trying to
do that, but don't get away with it!
Keep those chips flying!
-CD-
Boulder, CO
cindy drozda
I use a finish that is a 3-part mix of (lots of experimentation):
1- Oil - pure tung oil, or (currently) Tru-oil polymerized linseed oil
2- Polyurethane - different results with different brands...my favorite
used to be exterior Varathane gloss, but they have changed the formula so
I'm back to experimentation...Gloss poly gives a better build...drying
times vary...also hard to get a "low toxic" finish using this stuff at
all...
3- Thinner - used to use Deftoil penetrating oil finish (it's very
thin)...looking for something "less toxic", I've used turpentine or citrus
thinner (very expensive).
Actually, the mixes don't seem to be any better than straight
Tru-oil...all of those additives make it dry slower...I feel (no concrete
results) that the addition of polyurethane makes it more waterproof, so I
add maybe 1 part poly to 3 parts Tru-oil if I'm not in a hurry (not very
often)...the addition of thinner makes the finish drip off better when
dipping the pieces, or allows more time between brushing and wiping...
That Tru-oil is really amazing stuff...dries in 2 hours, builds well in 2
or 3 coats (even finishes aspen and cedar well), and doesn't irritate my
hands like other finishes do. I use it by brushing (or occasionally
dipping), let sit till almost tacky (a few minutes unless it's thinned),
and wipe off excess. After 2 or 3 coats, I buff with a "loose" cotton buff
at 1725 rpm (9"wheel) and "Hut" wax for a smooth feel and nice sheen.
-CD-
Boulder, CO
Steven D. Russell
One of the things I like most about woodturning, is the ability to
"think out of the box" regarding almost every facet of our art. In the
last year, I have embarked upon a gruelling testing and research
program, that is projected to last until December 2002. One goal of this
testing, is to uncover new products and procedures that work well in a
woodturning environment. For the finishing series in particular, I want
to challenge the "status quo" and find new products and application
methods to achieve the best finish possible. This includes using
non-traditional products, as well as traditional products in a
non-traditional way.
Each month, three testing programs are run simultaneously; these include
a drying test, a finishing test and a tool test. Quite a bit of my
research I publish here, on the rec.crafts.woodturning newsgroup.
Occasionally, I am honoured to have some published in various magazines
as well. As popular as the internet is, there are still many turners who
do not "surf the net". My magazine articles endeavour to provide the
results of my testing and research, to a broad base of turners who do
not have access to the internet.
As for mixing Tung Oil and Polyurethane, I have occasionally used a few
mixtures in the last couple of years. The results have been spotty...
from excellent to average. However, most of my experimentation in this
area has dealt with "layering" different products onto the finished
item, not applying a "blended" finish per se. I became interested in
developing a layered finish, after several very successful experiments
in my continuing quest for a better gallery finish for my high end
pieces.
One of my future finishing tests, will deal with home-made finishes and
blended products which will address this "blended" area directly. When
you begin mixing manufactured products, you will find that there are
quite a few variables to consider. Not only the mixing ratios, but the
specific products used, the various solvents and the specific timbers
all contribute to the overall success or failure of the test. It can get
mind boggling to consider the possible permutations of just three
different products. :-0 Good luck to you and best wishes in all of your
woodturning endeavours!
--
Letting the chips fly...
Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas
Website coming soon!
Steven D. Russell
Thanks for your kind words. I will give these a go in their respective
order...
cindy drozda wrote:
> I do enjoy your posts and test results...looking forward to the article >on oil finishes next year...will you keep us posted about which issue of
> Woodturning it appears in (for those who don't subscribe)?
No problemo'. The October 2000 issue of "Woodturning" contains part 1 of
my Wax finish test. The balance will appear in the Novemebr 2000 issue.
Wax finish testing covered 65 products from 26 manufacturers in paste,
liquid and solid forms. The oil test results will publish early next
year, I will let you know the specific issue.
> My question is: Where can you get Polymerized Tung oil? Preferably thinned with citrus or not thinned at all (so I can choose my thinner). Sutherland & Wells used to have a product like that available through Garrett Wade, but it is not in the current catalogue.
Lee Valley markets an excellent line of Polymerized Tung Oil finishes.
However, it contains a thinner. I tried to find the Sutherland-Wells
Polymerized Tung Oils for my test and was unsuccessful. I'm not sure if
it's even still made. Polymerized Tung Oils are available without
thinners, but the only ones I can recall at the moment are bulk
manufacturers such as Degen Oil and Chemical Company.
>
> Also: What do you think of polymerized linseed oil? Have you used
> "Tru-oil" (polymerized linseed oil)? Any benefit to mixing polymerized
> tung and linseed oils?
I have used it quite a bit. My oil test included (2) "Tried and True"
products which are Polymerized Linseed Oil without VOC's. I have also
used Tru-Oil for quite some time, maybe 30 years or more. Tru-Oil works
very well, but is is quite expensive like the Tried and True line. It
also tends to create more of a surface finish, IMHO instead of a
penetrating finish. In the old days (back when dinosaurs walked the
earth), we called it a gunstock varnish. :-0
Tried and True discourages you from thinning their product at all. The
Varnish Oil product says it can be thinned with their Danish Oil for a
thinner consistancy. This still leaves a very viscous product. I prefer
to use these types of finishes as top coats, utilizing less viscous,
better penetrating products for the initial and intermediate coats. (My
opinion only). I have not experimented with mixing Polymerized Tung and
Linseed Oils... I'll have to add it to the list!
>
> I have been using the Tru-oil with good results - dries in 2 hours and
> gives a good looking fairly waterproof finish in 2 or 3 coats (depending
> on the wood species). The driers that enable it to dry in 2 hours must be
> toxic, so I don't use it on things that might contact food...
Yes, that puppy does flash off quickly... Again though, I seem to prefer
finishes that are "closer to the wood". However, a light topcoat of
these types of products can work very well indeed and eliminates the
heavier look achieved when used as the sole finish.
> I envy your ability to get along with very little sleep...I keep trying to
> do that, but don't get away with it!
I'm not so sure sometimes... When everybody else is sleeping, I'm still
working! :-0 It does come in handy at times, but can be gruelling at
other times. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to
contact me. Take care and best wishes in all of your woodturning
Steve Tiedman
I believe you can find Sutherland Wells Polymerized Tung Oil via Garrett Wade, unless they recently stopped selling it. It is quite expensive. www.garrettwade.com
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
------------------------------
"Steven D. Russell" wrote:
> Hello Cindy,
Steven D. Russell
Thanks for the tip. I had thought they no longer carried it. Take care
and all the best to you and yours!
--
Letting the chips fly...
Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas
Website coming soon!
Steve Tiedman
brand "Profin" finish. It is not a pure tung oil, it has resins in it, and the
paint dealer I bought my can from assured me the oil was in fact tung oil. A
few weeks later I bought a can of Daly's pure tung oil from the paint supplier
as a special order item. They canned a quart of tung oil at the factory(???)
for me and the paint supplier had it a few days later. Smelled identical to the
can of Behlan's I was just finishing off.
Anyway, I used the Profin on the chess set I made last winter/spring (do we all
remember trying to view my pic's over at alt.bin.pic's?), both in its
out-of-the-can form and also mixed 50/50 with the Behlan's tung oil. I got
excellant results in both forms. Glossier look straight, softer sheen when
mixed 50/50 with the tung oil. If I am correct, this product would be refered
to as a "long oil" varnish, heavy on the oil, light on the resin.
Daly's should be a national brand, but may be a bit harder to find, they are a
small family company. If you are interested, here is the address from the can
for the manufacturer:
Daly's Wood Finishing Products, 3525 Stone Way N., Seattle, WA, 98103
Here is an interesting newspaper story I found while searching for info. It
gives a brief history of the business.
http://www.seattlepress.com/258-1.article
Here's more contact and general info: http://www.ohj.hw.net/rdir/05240.asp
This site claims Daly's will sell via mail order, retail, and distributors, and
that they have free literature.
Give this stuff a shot. I like it, and I'm a sworn pure tung oil user. Another
choice to Minwax Wiping Poly, Watco, etc. Not as thin/watery as the Minwax or
Watco (less solvents/thinners???), not as thick as pure tung oil; kind of like
Sam Maloof oil or Mark XI, but much more economical. I think a quart was around
$12-14.
Anyone else using this stuff, or any other Daly's products?
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
--------------------------------
Don Dillon wrote:
> I just finished a couple of small bowls this weekend and was looking forward
Mike Paulson
>>The driers that enable it to dry in 2 hours must be
>>toxic, so I don't use it on things that might contact food...
I, too, am a fan of Tru-Oil, and also don't use it for food contact items
because it is not advertized for such. However, having said that, I find
it to be one of the more benign finishes to use. It doesn't smell bad and
doesn't seem to bother my skin if I am careless. The directions on the
gallon can I have say, "Apply oil directly from the bottle - use your
fingers or a cloth," so apparently the manufacturer doesn't think it's so
bad for your skin, either. I'm not so sure that it's driers in the mix
that are responsible for the 2 hour drying time. I'm inclined to think
its more due to the polymerization process. It also sets up hard and
clear unlike boiled linseed oil.
-mike paulson, fort collins, co
W. Sugai
i've used daly's stuff for at least 20 years now and i mainly stay with
the line for finishing (inlcuding their expensive, but high quality
deck/fence stain). the "fin" line is generally marketed as a teak oil
finish, and is available in several viscosities (seafin-thinnest,
profin-thicker, floorfin-thickest). to the best of my knowlege, the only
difference between these are the viscosities; the main components are the
same. easy to use. if i were doing lathe work, i'd use seafin exclusively.
In article <39EE42D2...@uswest.net>,
W. Sugai
in a past lifetime, i used to sell and use tru-oil for its intended
purpose (finishing gunstocks), and its claim to fame was that it had the
workability of boiled linseed oil but was resistant to the highly
corrosive residue from modern smokeless powders (the coatings used on
these powders are pretty rough on most finishes).
anyway, most people (myself included) never got the hang of applying
tru-oil properly, but i've seen more talented people realize spectacular
results with the stuff. the difference was that, where i would just glop
the stuff on and try to get away with 2 coats or so, the more talented
people would apply the stuff in the traditional way--thin coats rubbed in
with bare hands and micro-sanded between coats. after 20 coats or so, the
finish turn out to die for. i've seen guys go 50 coats on really fine
circassian (sp?) walnut stocks that would be fit for a museum.
In article <97193573...@irys.nyx.net>,
Donald R. Watland
time in the past ....
1. Any finish, after all solvents have evaporated and the finish is
adequately "cured", is not considered harmful by any guidelines set by the
FDA. Not many finishes I can think of will "re-dissolve" onto a wet piece
of lettuce. Other than that, most folks don't scrape the finish off a bowl
to add as flavoring, and if they did, it should be inert at that point!
2. The old guidelines for a good oil finish call for reapplying the finish
once a day for a week, then once a week for a month, then once a month for a
year, and finally once a year for the rest of eternity.
Bon Apetite,
--
Donald Watland
Watland Design
Peoria, AZ
dwat...@uswest.net
"Kip055" <kip...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001016214544...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
Steve Tiedman
I went looking for Tru-Oil only once, and found a little 3-oz bottle at the
sporting goods dept at Walmart. Where can it be found in larger quantities?
I'm not necessarily interested in a gallon, but I wouldn't mind a pint or
quart. And what kind of prices would I be looking at, roughly?
Respond at the rec or to my own e-mail. Thanks.
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
----------------------------------
Joe Fleming
but it works well. I start by dry buffing the piece with tripoli and white
diamond compounds. Next, I apply a wash coat of 1/2 Deft Semi Gloss (or Satin)
and 1/2 laquer thinner. Wipe on generously. Immediately, while still wet, wipe
on a coat of the Ben Matte tung oil. I've been told that Waterlox will work
too, but that it might need to be thinned a bit. Let it set a few minutes, then
buff with 0000 wool. Then wipe with a clean towel. Let it dry.
After several hours, I buff with tripoli and white diamond, and reapply the tung
oil. After setting a few minutes, 0000 wool and wipe.
If I want a glossy appearance, I buff with white diamond and apply a third
application oil, 0000 wool and wipe. Otherwise, I buff with white diamond, then
carnuba wax to finish.
After the third coat dries, I buff with white diamond, the carnuba wax.
This approach gives good luster without looking like polyurethane/plastic.
Joe
==============================
Don Dillon wrote:
> I just finished a couple of small bowls this weekend and was looking forward
Paul T. Radovanic
Steve,
Thanks for an excellent post. A friend has been bugging me for years
to use Daly's schtuff. Some readers here will recognize Dave
Fleming's name -- he's retired from a lifetime of professional wooden
boat-building, really, *really* knows his stuff, and he swears by
Daly's.
You've just pushed me over the edge to track this stuff down and give
it a whirl.
Thanks!
Paul Rad
cindy drozda
(fax) 612-937-7979, (web) birchwoodcasey.com
7900 Fuller Rd. Eden Prairie, MN 55344
Cost is: 3 oz @ 5.20, 8 oz @ 9.20, 16 oz @ 16.60, gallon @ 49.70.
Steve Tiedman
Thanks!! I live less than 15 miles from there, I'll look them up
sometime.
Take Care,
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
-----------------------------
Steve Tiedman
Thanks! My brother-in-law owns a small boat and they live on it in the Seattle
area. He says all the folks out there use these products on their boats. Guess
that's a good testimonial.
Good luck,
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
p.s. Did I just start another finishing trend? Using Daly's products?
---------------------------------
"Paul T. Radovanic" wrote:
> Steve,
>
> Thanks for an excellent post. A friend has been bugging me for years
> to use Daly's schtuff. Some readers here will recognize Dave
> Fleming's name -- he's retired from a lifetime of professional wooden
> boat-building, really, *really* knows his stuff, and he swears by
> Daly's.
>
> You've just pushed me over the edge to track this stuff down and give
> it a whirl.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Paul Rad
>
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Steve Tiedman wrote:
>
> >Another good oil based wiping finish I discovered earlier this year is Daly's
> >brand "Profin" finish...
Grusserry
Sorry to disappoint, but you haven't started a new trend. You are just
discovering what many of us out here learned about 30 or so years ago. I
discovered it in the 1960's. Although many prefer their "Pro-Fin" for
furniture and turnings, I use the "Sea-Fin" Teak Oil.
For a really nice finish, melt about an ounce of beeswax in 3/4 pint of
"Sea-Fin" heated to 155* in a double-boiler, or on a coffee cup warmer. Let it
cool and season for a day or two before using.
Build the finish base with 3 coats of "Sea-Fin" rubbed in with 400, 600, and
1000 grits respectively. Then reheat the wax mixture and apply it while it is
warm. Allow to sit over night, buff with a soft cloth, and then do it one more
time. Then hand buff again to remove the surface wax. The result is a silky
soft gloss finish.
"Sea-Fin" is the only finishing product that I have been able to heat and
reheat many times without degradation.
Russ Fairfield
Silverdale, WA
Paul T. Radovanic
Heh. Well, like Russ (Grussery) said, Daly's popularity has been
around for a while. The boatbuilder I mentioned, Dave Fleming, got
hooked on Daly's while building boats around Washington and Oregon,
too.
It seems that in the old days before mass distribution, different
companies enjoyed dominance in different regions of the country. For
example, Waterlox is made in Cleveland, Ohio, so you'll find people in
the eastern half of the USA who swear by it and never heard of Daly's.
Daly's seemed to control the western USA. There have been other
companies as well -- the products are similar, after all -- being made
of varying proportions of oil and resins and UV agents. Generally
speaking, a product that has mostly oil with a tiny amount of resin is
referred to as a Danish oil or a penetrating oil; those products that
have a higher ratio of resin to oil are referred to as wiping
varnishes. What the quality products (Daly's, Watco, Waterlox, et al)
have in common is consistency and rock-solid performance, not to
mention clever marketing and packaging.
We could all mix this stuff up in our garage if we wanted to, but we
really shouldn't. This, btw, is one of Michael Dresdner's pet peeves.
He is a formulator, and he does not recommend that we amateurs go
mucking about with different oils, resins, and solvent packages. We
start mixing alkyds with phenolics, tung oil with linseed oil, mineral
spirits with naptha or Stoddard solvent, and so on -- when there are
highly trained people who have tried the various combinations in
controlled environments, and tweaked them to the point where they end
up being the right ratios to incorporate all the important features,
like ease of use, acceptable dry time, proper film, ease of repair,
etc. etc.
Maybe someone (Steven Russell, are you listening?) would be willing to
compare Daly's, Waterlox, Watco, and any others in a side-by-side
test, and tell us if any of them really have any benefit over the
other? I suspect that each would perform similarly and admirably, and
we would all stick with the brand that holds the most "mystique" for
us.
But I intend to try the Daly's, and see for myself. Of course, I'm a
finishing fanatic (read: mad scientist with a chemistry set) anyway.
I just dropped $100 today at Michael's Craft Store, and a good bit of
that went for the various linseed oil, stand oil, poppyseed oil,
Copal, Dammar varnish, etc. products that are sold by the artist's oil
paint section. I want to try them on wood, just because.
Anyway, thanks again for the push. I'll let you know how it turns
out, if I ever find the Daly's.
Paul Rad
On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Steve Tiedman wrote:
>Hi Paul,
>Thanks! My brother-in-law owns a small boat and they live on it in the Seattle
>area. He says all the folks out there use these products on their boats. Guess
>that's a good testimonial.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Steve Tiedman
>stevet...@uswest.net
>
>p.s. Did I just start another finishing trend? Using Daly's products?
>---------------------------------
>
>"Paul T. Radovanic" wrote:
>> Steve,
>>
>> Thanks for an excellent post. A friend has been bugging me for years
>> to use Daly's schtuff. Some readers here will recognize Dave
>> Fleming's name -- he's retired from a lifetime of professional wooden
>> boat-building, really, *really* knows his stuff, and he swears by
>> Daly's.
>>
>> You've just pushed me over the edge to track this stuff down and give
>> it a whirl.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Paul Rad
>>
>> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Steve Tiedman wrote:
>>
>> >Another good oil based wiping finish I discovered earlier this year is Daly's
>> >brand "Profin" finish...
Steve Tiedman
Thank goodness, I hate being a trend setter. I'm glad I decided to buy
a can of this stuff that day, just on a whim...
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
------------------------
Grusserry wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> Sorry to disappoint, but you haven't started a new trend. You are just
> discovering what many of us out here learned about 30 or so years ago. I
> discovered it in the 1960's. Although many prefer their "Pro-Fin" for
> furniture and turnings, I use the "Sea-Fin" Teak Oil...
>
>
Steven D. Russell
Ask and ye shall receive... I'm recently finished an "oil finish" test
that included 75 (yes, 75 we like things BIG in Texas!!!) different oil
finishes. The results will be published in "Woodturning" magazine early
next year. This oil test was phase-2 in a 12 phase finish testing
programme I have committed to over the next two years.
Phase-1, waxes and wax based finishes, was recently published (part-1)
in "Woodturning" magazine in October of this year. The balance of the
article, (part-2) will publish in November of this year. The wax finish
test compared 65 different waxes in paste, liquid and solid forms from
26 different manufacturers in 6 countries.
Next up is Lacquers (phase-3), followed by Shellac (phase-4). By the
time I finish the 12th phase, this should be one of the (if not THE)
most comprehensive testing of wood finishes ever undertaken. Literally
hundreds of different products will be tested over the two year period.
I can tell you that there ARE differences between brands... some of
these differences are small and some are significant. The testing has
been quite revealing!
Take care and all the best to you and yours! If you have any questions,
please do not hesitate to contact me. Testing and research continues...
P.S. One of the test phases will deal with home-made finishes, some of
which are easily the equal to many of the major brands...
--
Letting the chips fly...
Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas
Website coming soon!
> >> Steve,
> >>
> >> Thanks for an excellent post. A friend has been bugging me for years
> >> to use Daly's schtuff. Some readers here will recognize Dave
> >> Fleming's name -- he's retired from a lifetime of professional wooden
> >> boat-building, really, *really* knows his stuff, and he swears by
> >> Daly's.
> >>
> >> You've just pushed me over the edge to track this stuff down and give
> >> it a whirl.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Paul Rad
> >>
> >> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Steve Tiedman wrote:
> >>
> >> >Another good oil based wiping finish I discovered earlier this year is Daly's
> >> >brand "Profin" finish...
Kevin & Theresa Miller
>
> Steve,
>
> Sorry to disappoint, but you haven't started a new trend. You are just
> discovering what many of us out here learned about 30 or so years ago. I
> discovered it in the 1960's. Although many prefer their "Pro-Fin" for
> furniture and turnings, I use the "Sea-Fin" Teak Oil.
An earlier post said it was Tung oil, and here its a teak oil. Is there really
such thing as "teak oil" or is that just an allusion to the fact that it is used
on the teak brightwork on boats?
For those that have used it, how does it compare color wise to WaterLox. A
number of folks here and in rec.ww have spoken highly of WaterLox, so I tried
some. It was awfully amber. Almost brownish. I've been under the impression
that tung oil wasn't as dark as linseed oil which is why I tried it, but the
WaterLox seems darker. Its been a while since I used any, but I don't recall
Formby's Tung Oil Finish as being that dark.
> For a really nice finish, melt about an ounce of beeswax in 3/4 pint of
> "Sea-Fin" heated to 155* in a double-boiler, or on a coffee cup warmer. Let it
> cool and season for a day or two before using.
>
> Build the finish base with 3 coats of "Sea-Fin" rubbed in with 400, 600, and
> 1000 grits respectively. Then reheat the wax mixture and apply it while it is
> warm. Allow to sit over night, buff with a soft cloth, and then do it one more
> time. Then hand buff again to remove the surface wax. The result is a silky
> soft gloss finish.
When you say to finish w/3 coats of Sea-Fin, do you mean straight Sea-Fin, or
the mixture? Sounds like an interesting finish, thanks for sharing it...
...Kevin
--
Kevin & Theresa Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Steve Tiedman
Minnesota from Idaho, but that's another story.)
Darn marketing folks! There is no such thing as "teak oil" in the form
of a finish made from the oil of teak wood. Teak oil is a name only.
It is in the same general family as Watco, and the rest of the
penetrating finishes. I've never used teak oil, but I'm thinking that's
just what it does, penetrates more than leaving a surface. The Profin
does also penetrate with the first coat, but it has more resin in it
than other penetrating oil finishes, so it leaves more of a surface
film. Looks nice when cured. Pretty glossy, but not as glossy as
Rockhard varnish- probably less resin/more oil in the Profin.
Teak oil, danish oil, blah-blah oil, just marketing hype. (No, I don't
know who manufactures blah-blah oil. I think I saw it at H.D. one time,
though.) Man, at $18-20 or more a board foot for teak, imagine how
expensive just a pint of finish made from the natural oils of teak would
cost? And how would they extract the oil, and what would they do with
the rest of the wood byproduct after extracting the oil?
Environmentalists, stand up and revolt! I'll leave the subject of
"lemon oil" polishes and finishes alone for now.
I've never used Waterlox, so I can't give my impression. I would have
to think that it may have something to do with the type of resin used in
the mix. Alkyd, phenolic, and poly resins all have their own color
hues. If memory serves me right (where's Flexner's book when I need
it?), phenolic resin is going to make a pretty amber varnish, and
phenolic will darken with age. Behlan's Rockhard varnish is a phenolic,
not a poly, and it is darker amber than poly. Nearly all "spar" or
"marine" varnishes are a phenolic varnish, oil-heavy so the finish is a
bit softer than say Rockhard, which offers greater flexibility for
outside applications. Poly is inferior for exterior use (ask the boat
folks) because it isn't as flexible and the sun beats it up faster.
The kind of oil base can affect the color, too. Linseed is a bit darker
than tung, and will darken more with time. I can't remember how the
other modified vegetable oils the finish mfr.'s use compare color wise,
but I'm thinking they have lighter colors.
Take care, winter is coming to Alaska!
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
---------------------------
Kevin & Theresa Miller wrote:
>
> Grusserry wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> >
> > Sorry to disappoint, but you haven't started a new trend. You are just
> > discovering what many of us out here learned about 30 or so years ago. I
> > discovered it in the 1960's. Although many prefer their "Pro-Fin" for
> > furniture and turnings, I use the "Sea-Fin" Teak Oil.
>
> An earlier post said it was Tung oil, and here its a teak oil. Is there really
> such thing as "teak oil" or is that just an allusion to the fact that it is used
> on the teak brightwork on boats?
>
> For those that have used it, how does it compare color wise to WaterLox. A
> number of folks here and in rec.ww have spoken highly of WaterLox, so I tried
> some. It was awfully amber. Almost brownish. I've been under the impression
> that tung oil wasn't as dark as linseed oil which is why I tried it, but the
> WaterLox seems darker. Its been a while since I used any, but I don't recall
> Formby's Tung Oil Finish as being that dark.
>
> > For a really nice finish, melt about an ounce of beeswax in 3/4 pint of
> > "Sea-Fin" heated to 155* in a double-boiler, or on a coffee cup warmer. Let it
> > cool and season for a day or two before using.
> >
> > Build the finish base with 3 coats of "Sea-Fin" rubbed in with 400, 600, and
> > 1000 grits respectively. Then reheat the wax mixture and apply it while it is
> > warm. Allow to sit over night, buff with a soft cloth, and then do it one more
> > time. Then hand buff again to remove the surface wax. The result is a silky
> > soft gloss finish.
>
Grusserry
They do not use linseed oil in them. In fact, when I purchase pure tung oil
from them, they go into the back room and draw it from the same tank that they
are using to mix their finishes. That's fresh! It is also the best quality pure
tung that is available from any source (personal opinion).
The "Teak Oil" is a generic name only because it was originally blended for use
as a marine finish, which was usually teak. I have no idea whether it contains
any UV inhibitors, but the wood color will stay brighter longer than any other
commercial finish that I have used, including Waterlox.
Although they are similar products, and both blended from Tung Oil, I have
always maintained that Daly's Sea-Fin is better than Waterlox, particularly on
lighter colored woods, because it doesn't yellow with age as much. That
probably has more to do with the quality of the varnishes that are used than
anything else. At the present time the Daly's is still priced at about $30 per
gallon, and the Waterlox is $45.
Daly's cannot be characterized as being remotely similar to any Watco product.
Watco is an oil finish that does not develop a durable surface film. Daly's has
a varnish in the blend and it does develop a durable surface film.
Watco "Danish Oil" is blended from linseed oil, soybean oil, drying agents, and
who knows what else in an effort to keep the price down. It does not contain
any Tung Oil. Watco also makes a "Teak Oil" that doesn't turn as dark as fast
as their "Danish", and it contains a UV inhibitor.
When I use the wax/Sea-Fin blend, the first three coats are straight Sea-Fin,
sanded while wet with 400, 600, and 1000 grit respectively, wiped dry, allowed
to set overnight, and buffed with steel wool before the next repitition. That
is followed by two coats of the wax/Sea-Fin mixture.
The best home-brew wipe-on finish that I have used is a 1/1/1 mixture of pure
tung oil, McKloskey's gloss marine varnish (in the red can), and turpentine. It
may need some additional thinner for penetration on the first coat, and that
first coat may dry more slowly than other finishes because there are no dryers
other than what might be in the varnish. I have tried a lot of other
traditional varnishes, polyurethane, and a tung/linseed oil blend, but the
finishes made with the preferred ingredients have endured the years of use
better than anything else.
Daly's also makes a product called Sea-Fin Ship'NShore Sealer that is an
excellent sealer for porous woods.
Daly's has expanded their distribution somewhat over the years. It used to be
that it was only available at their Seattle store, and a few marine paint
suppliers, but it is now in HomeDepot, Lowe's, and most paint stores on the
other side of Puget Sound, and I recently saw it in a hardware store in
northern Idaho. It is always available by mail-order.
No, I am not on their payroll.
Russ Fairfield
Silverdale, WA
Kevin & Theresa Miller
>
> Hiya Kevin, long time no chat. How's life? (Me, I moved back to
> Minnesota from Idaho, but that's another story.)
Yeah, been a while - ever get that piece of driftwood for which you risk life
and limb (not to mention the wrath of your sweetie) turned?
> Darn marketing folks! There is no such thing as "teak oil" in the form
> of a finish made from the oil of teak wood. Teak oil is a name only.
Well, that's pretty much what I figured, but I'd never seen anything saying so
one way or another. Having never seen a teak tree I don't know if it has some
sort of nuts or fruit that they could extract oil from. Guess not apparently.
> Teak oil, danish oil, blah-blah oil, just marketing hype. (No, I don't
> know who manufactures blah-blah oil. I think I saw it at H.D. one time,
Probably, though I hate the blah finish it leaves.
> I've never used Waterlox, so I can't give my impression. I would have
> to think that it may have something to do with the type of resin used in
> the mix. Alkyd, phenolic, and poly resins all have their own color
> hues. If memory serves me right (where's Flexner's book when I need
> it?), phenolic resin is going to make a pretty amber varnish, and
> phenolic will darken with age. Behlan's Rockhard varnish is a phenolic,
Just checked the label: tung oil, ester gum, phenolic resins, and linseed oil.
Between the phenolic resins and the linseed oil I guess we can account for the
dark amber color. Now if it was a beer it would be perfect, but I prefer my
finishes a bit lighter. Guess I'll have to give the Daly's a go. They've
stocked it locally for as long as I can remember at the local lumberyard. They
must sell a lot, its usually in gallon cans. Not sure who's using that much but
someone must be. I went by there today, and they didn't have any pints or
quarts, but they have in the past so maybe the stock was just low. Probably all
the other turners in town made a run on 'em after reading its virtues here.
Yeah, that's gotta be it.
I hadn't really considered it before because I associated it w/boats or floors
(Floorfin) and have pretty much stuck w/brands I've had experience with. Nice
to hear about a new option.
> Take care, winter is coming to Alaska!
Tell me about it. My family is forcing me to go to Hawaii for 3 weeks for that
very reason. I'll take some empty suitcases over. Reckon they'll be full of
some choice wood on the way back though! :-) Looking forward to meeting up w/a
couple of turners over there too..
Kevin & Theresa Miller
>
> The "Teak Oil" is a generic name only because it was originally blended for use
> as a marine finish, which was usually teak. I have no idea whether it contains
> any UV inhibitors, but the wood color will stay brighter longer than any other
> commercial finish that I have used, including Waterlox.
That's a plus. Now if only they had a 'food safe' line on the label. Yeah, I
know, they're all safe after they've dried, but its nice for peace of mind and
marketing to have that assurance.
> Although they are similar products, and both blended from Tung Oil, I have
> always maintained that Daly's Sea-Fin is better than Waterlox, particularly on
> lighter colored woods, because it doesn't yellow with age as much. That
> probably has more to do with the quality of the varnishes that are used than
> anything else. At the present time the Daly's is still priced at about $30 per
> gallon, and the Waterlox is $45.
Just replied to Steve T. that the label says tung oil, ester gum, linseed oil
and phenolic resins. Plenty in that mix to turn yellow which makes the Daly's
sound really attractive. If I wanted yellow I'd buy paint.
> When I use the wax/Sea-Fin blend, the first three coats are straight Sea-Fin,
> sanded while wet with 400, 600, and 1000 grit respectively, wiped dry, allowed
> to set overnight, and buffed with steel wool before the next repitition. That
> is followed by two coats of the wax/Sea-Fin mixture.
I'll have to play w/sanding wet a bit. I tried it today, and it just gunked up
the paper, but little else. It may be that the Waterlox is too thick. I'm down
to the bottom third of the can so it may not be as runny as it used to be.
Dries just fine, but I suspect its on its way to being cured. I'll get some
Seafin and give that a go. What rpm do you usually wet sand at? Don't really
want an oil shower.
> Daly's has expanded their distribution somewhat over the years. It used to be
> that it was only available at their Seattle store, and a few marine paint
> suppliers, but it is now in HomeDepot, Lowe's, and most paint stores on the
> other side of Puget Sound, and I recently saw it in a hardware store in
> northern Idaho. It is always available by mail-order.
We've had it here for years. Its been the stock in-house brand at a local
lumberyard for ages. I've used the Daly's Paste Filler for porous woods as far
back as I can remember but for some reason never bothered w/the finishes, in
favor of the more common brands like Formby's, Deft, etc. Nice to know it's
made by a mom and pop outfit right here in the Pacific NW. I have a soft spot
for smaller operations. The best part is I *can* buy it locally. Nobody will
ship me finishes anymore due to FAA regs or some such. They want a $25 hazmat
fee. Haven't figured out why a plane is more prone to crash w/o paperwork but
the govt. thinks so. Sigh.
> No, I am not on their payroll.
Me neither ;-)
S'later & thanks...
Paul T. Radovanic
>Daly's has expanded their distribution somewhat over the years. It used to be
>that it was only available at their Seattle store, and a few marine paint
>suppliers, but it is now in HomeDepot, Lowe's, and most paint stores on the
>other side of Puget Sound, and I recently saw it in a hardware store in
>northern Idaho. It is always available by mail-order.
>
>No, I am not on their payroll.
>
>Russ Fairfield
>Silverdale, WA
Thanks for an excellent post, Russ. I really enjoy hearing about
personal experiences with different products. Since you visit the
store, can you prod them to put up a web site and give us a list of
distributors? Or at least an email address for mail-order info?
Then maybe they'll put you on the payroll with a free gallon or
something. ;o)
Paul Rad
Grusserry
good to go to back to where a long discussion started, and see whether anyone
answered the original question. It is often not answered.
Yes, you can get a hard gloss from tung oil. It is just sometimes faster if the
tung oil is modified with varnishes and thinners as many of the messages have
discussed.
Before using pure Tung Oil, the wood should be sealed with a cellulose
(lacquer) sanding sealer. This insures a uniform build of Tung Oil on the
surface. I use gloss Deft because it dosen't have any fillers that can cloud
the wood grain. But I also sand to several grits finer than most, so I don't
need the fillers. Apply a full coat, and immediately wipe it all off. Buff the
surface with steel wool prior to application of the Tung Oil. It should take
three or four lightly wet coats. I apply a thin coat and wipe it just enough to
eliminate any laps. Buff with steel wool after each has dried. The last coat
should be applied slightly heavier and it will dry to a hard gloss.
Russ Fairfield
Silverdale, WA
Don Dillon
Talking with others after the fact, I found that I probably need the sanding
sealer since the wood I tried was somewhat pourous, and it sucked up the
tung oil like beer at a football game.
Don
"Grusserry" <grus...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001023111631...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
Paul T. Radovanic
>Just replied to Steve T. that the label says tung oil, ester gum, linseed oil
>and phenolic resins. Plenty in that mix to turn yellow which makes the Daly's
>sound really attractive. If I wanted yellow I'd buy paint.
I just wanted to stick my dos centavos in here on the color issue.
Phenolic resins tend more toward brown than amber, but it's not at all
unpleasant. I have a real fondness for Rockhard for two reasons --
one is the color, which is a nice, warm, traditional varnish color; as
opposed to that pukey yellow of polyurinestain. I also like Rockhard
because it's a short-oil varnish, and therefore easier to rub out once
it cures.
>What rpm do you usually wet sand at? Don't really
>want an oil shower.
Sticking my nose in here, too ;o) I have found that I can lay a
piece of newspaper on the lathe ways as I slather the oil on the
non-moving wood. (Naturally, you want to have eye and breathing
protection in place.) Then I can hold up the back end of the
newspaper when I turn the lathe on (at low RPM's). I actually stand
to the side and curve the paper over the top of the workpiece. That
blocks most of the overspray. After that, I just keep the sandpaper
or abrasive pad damp (not dripping) as I continue to sand. There's no
finish like a wet-sanded oil finish!
FWIW,
Paul Rad
Paul T. Radovanic
>Before using pure Tung Oil, the wood should be sealed with a cellulose
>(lacquer) sanding sealer.
I'm curious, Russ. I have always found dewaxed shellac to be a much
better sealer than lacquer sanding sealer. I do prefer the lacquer
sanding sealer if I have a large, flat surface to sand by hand,
because sanding sealers contain soap-like stearates which lubricate
and make sanding easier. Waxy shellac is easy to sand for the same
reason.
But on the lathe, sanding is no chore, so I tend to prefer the faster,
better job that dewaxed shellac does. Have you ever tried shellac for
sealing?
Paul Rad
Grusserry
I made furniture and tall clocks for a few years before I got back into
turning, and the lacquer sanding sealer just came along with me because I am so
familiar with using it.
I have also finished several pieces of furniture with shellac used as a true
french polish. I use it as a friction polish on small turnings.
The interesting thing about finishing is that there are many ways to do the
same job. Everybody has a different opinion, and usually they are all correct.
Russ Fairfield
Silverdale, WA
Russ Fairfield
Mark Schecter
>
> Another good oil based wiping finish I discovered earlier this year is Daly's
> paint dealer I bought my can from assured me the oil was in fact tung oil. A
> few weeks later I bought a can of Daly's pure tung oil from the paint supplier
> as a special order item. They canned a quart of tung oil at the factory(???)
> for me and the paint supplier had it a few days later. Smelled identical to the
> can of Behlan's I was just finishing off.
>
>
> Daly's should be a national brand, but may be a bit harder to find, they are a
> small family company. If you are interested, here is the address from the can
> for the manufacturer:
> Daly's Wood Finishing Products, 3525 Stone Way N., Seattle, WA, 98103
> Here is an interesting newspaper story I found while searching for info. It
> gives a brief history of the business.
> http://www.seattlepress.com/258-1.article
>
> Here's more contact and general info: http://www.ohj.hw.net/rdir/05240.asp
> This site claims Daly's will sell via mail order, retail, and distributors, and
> that they have free literature.
>
Hi, Steve.
Thanks for the suggestion. I looked 'em up, and their web site is
http://www.dalyspaint.com/
Sounds good.
Mark
Steve Tiedman
in Moscow, Idaho before moving to Minnesota. Haven't gone looking for it around
here yet.
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
--------------------------------
Grusserry wrote:
> (Huge snip)
Steve Tiedman
Polyurinestain, perfect! I'm gonna remember that one!
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
-----------------------------
"Paul T. Radovanic" wrote:
> ... pukey yellow of polyurinestain...
>
> FWIW,
>
> Paul Rad
Steve Tiedman
Tung oil is good for that, for sure. But that's the point, too. Tung oil is a
penetrating oil, and that is what it does. To get a surface build of any kind
with pure tung oil, you are going to use at least 6 coats, if not more. By
that point, you have used a lot of tung oil and a lot of time waiting for all
those coats to cure. And tung oil is not a superior finish all by itself in
built up form, falling short in the protection catagory to the resin containing
varnishes and other true surface finishes.
Experiment.
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
------------------------------
Don Dillon wrote:
> Thanks,
> Talking with others after the fact, I found that I probably need the sanding
> sealer since the wood I tried was somewhat pourous, and it sucked up the
> tung oil like beer at a football game.
>
> Don
> "Grusserry" <grus...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20001023111631...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> > I don't think anyone answered Don Dillon's original question. It is
> sometimes
> > good to go to back to where a long discussion started, and see whether
> anyone
> > answered the original question. It is often not answered.
> >
> > Yes, you can get a hard gloss from tung oil. It is just sometimes faster
> if the
> > tung oil is modified with varnishes and thinners as many of the messages
> have
> > discussed.
> >
> > Before using pure Tung Oil, the wood should be sealed with a cellulose
W. Sugai
i usually wet sand the first two coats of seafin with 400 grit w/d, wiping
off the gunky residue well with each sanding. i apply the next two coats
without sanding, wiping off the excess per label instructions. it's messy,
so have a lot of rags handy and pre-cut your sandpaper. if you wipe off
too quickly, you end up removing too much finish; if you wait too long,
the finish gets tacky and you have a mess. in general, best to wipe off
too early than too late.
besides ease of application, a great thing about the "fin" line is that
you can do spot repairs very easily.
i once heard on a local seattle radio show that old man daly (the founder)
was a trained chemist who got into producing wood finishes as a side
thing.
In article <39F3B168...@alaska.net>,
Kevin & Theresa Miller <at...@alaska.net> wrote:
>Grusserry wrote:
>>
>> The "Teak Oil" is a generic name only because it was originally
>blended for use
>> as a marine finish, which was usually teak. I have no idea whether it contains
>> any UV inhibitors, but the wood color will stay brighter longer than any other
>> commercial finish that I have used, including Waterlox.
>
>That's a plus. Now if only they had a 'food safe' line on the label. Yeah, I
>know, they're all safe after they've dried, but its nice for peace of mind and
>marketing to have that assurance.
>
>
>> Although they are similar products, and both blended from Tung Oil, I have
>> always maintained that Daly's Sea-Fin is better than Waterlox, particularly on
>> lighter colored woods, because it doesn't yellow with age as much. That
>> probably has more to do with the quality of the varnishes that are used than
>> anything else. At the present time the Daly's is still priced at about $30 per
>> gallon, and the Waterlox is $45.
>
>Just replied to Steve T. that the label says tung oil, ester gum, linseed oil
>and phenolic resins. Plenty in that mix to turn yellow which makes the Daly's
>sound really attractive. If I wanted yellow I'd buy paint.
>
>> When I use the wax/Sea-Fin blend, the first three coats are straight Sea-Fin,
>> sanded while wet with 400, 600, and 1000 grit respectively, wiped dry, allowed
>> to set overnight, and buffed with steel wool before the next repitition. That
>> is followed by two coats of the wax/Sea-Fin mixture.
>
>I'll have to play w/sanding wet a bit. I tried it today, and it just gunked up
>the paper, but little else. It may be that the Waterlox is too thick. I'm down
>to the bottom third of the can so it may not be as runny as it used to be.
>Dries just fine, but I suspect its on its way to being cured. I'll get some
>Seafin and give that a go. What rpm do you usually wet sand at? Don't really
>want an oil shower.
>
>
>> Daly's has expanded their distribution somewhat over the years. It used to be
>> that it was only available at their Seattle store, and a few marine paint
>> suppliers, but it is now in HomeDepot, Lowe's, and most paint stores on the
>> other side of Puget Sound, and I recently saw it in a hardware store in
>> northern Idaho. It is always available by mail-order.
>
>We've had it here for years. Its been the stock in-house brand at a local
>lumberyard for ages. I've used the Daly's Paste Filler for porous woods as far
>back as I can remember but for some reason never bothered w/the finishes, in
>favor of the more common brands like Formby's, Deft, etc. Nice to know it's
>made by a mom and pop outfit right here in the Pacific NW. I have a soft spot
>for smaller operations. The best part is I *can* buy it locally. Nobody will
>ship me finishes anymore due to FAA regs or some such. They want a $25 hazmat
>fee. Haven't figured out why a plane is more prone to crash w/o paperwork but
>the govt. thinks so. Sigh.
>
>> No, I am not on their payroll.
>
Steven D. Russell
As you know, I have been testing and researching various oil finishes
for an article that will appear in "Woodturning" magazine early next
year. I noticed your post about ProFin and wanted to clarify the
ingredients, because you were given incorrect information by this paint
dealer.
Daly's ProFin Finish does NOT contain any Tung Oil, not even a single
drop. ProFin contains Polyurethane and Alkyd resins with Mineral Spirits
and Alkybenzenes. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to
contact me. Take care and all the best to you and yours!
--
Letting the chips fly...
Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas
Website coming soon!
Steve Tiedman wrote:
>
> Another good oil based wiping finish I discovered earlier this year is Daly's
> brand "Profin" finish. It is not a pure tung oil, it has resins in it, and the
> paint dealer I bought my can from assured me the oil was in fact tung oil. A
> few weeks later I bought a can of Daly's pure tung oil from the paint supplier
> as a special order item. They canned a quart of tung oil at the factory(???)
> for me and the paint supplier had it a few days later. Smelled identical to the
> can of Behlan's I was just finishing off.
>
> Anyway, I used the Profin on the chess set I made last winter/spring (do we all
> remember trying to view my pic's over at alt.bin.pic's?), both in its
> out-of-the-can form and also mixed 50/50 with the Behlan's tung oil. I got
> excellant results in both forms. Glossier look straight, softer sheen when
> mixed 50/50 with the tung oil. If I am correct, this product would be refered
> to as a "long oil" varnish, heavy on the oil, light on the resin.
>
> Daly's should be a national brand, but may be a bit harder to find, they are a
> small family company. If you are interested, here is the address from the can
> for the manufacturer:
> Daly's Wood Finishing Products, 3525 Stone Way N., Seattle, WA, 98103
> Here is an interesting newspaper story I found while searching for info. It
> gives a brief history of the business.
> http://www.seattlepress.com/258-1.article
>
> Here's more contact and general info: http://www.ohj.hw.net/rdir/05240.asp
> This site claims Daly's will sell via mail order, retail, and distributors, and
> that they have free literature.
>
Steven D. Russell
I noticed your post on the Daly's finishes and wanted to offer the
following information to help identify the ingredient differences
between these products.
Daly's ProFin Finish: ProFin contains Urethane and Alkyd resins with
Mineral Spirits
and Alkybenzenes. It does not contain any Tung Oil.
Daly's FloorFin Finish: FloorFin contains Alykd and oil modified
Urethane resins with Mineral Spirits and Alkybenzenes. It does not
contain any Tung Oil.
Daly's SeaFin Teak Oil Finish: SeaFin Teak oil contains Tung Oil, Alkyd
and Urethane resins with Mineral Spirits and Alkybenzenes.
Daly's SeaFin Super Spar Finish: Super Spar contains Phenolic Alkyd
Varnish and a bit of Tung Oil, but no Urethane with Mineral Spirits and
Alkybenzenes.
Daly's BenMatte Natural Tung Oil Finish: BenMatte contains Tung Oil,
Linseed Oil and Urethane resins with Mineral Spirits and Alkybenzenes.
I hope this clears up any confusion about these finishing products. If
you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. Take care
and all the best to you and yours!
--
Letting the chips fly...
Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas
Website coming soon!
"W. Sugai" wrote:
>
> i've used daly's stuff for at least 20 years now and i mainly stay with
> the line for finishing (inlcuding their expensive, but high quality
> deck/fence stain). the "fin" line is generally marketed as a teak oil
> finish, and is available in several viscosities (seafin-thinnest,
> profin-thicker, floorfin-thickest). to the best of my knowlege, the only
> difference between these are the viscosities; the main components are the
> same. easy to use. if i were doing lathe work, i'd use seafin exclusively.
Steve Tiedman
I sent this in the first Daly's post to this thread a few days ago, but here it is
again. Click on this link from the Seattle Press newspaper, talking with the Daly
family. Interesting.
http://www.seattlepress.com/258-1.article
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
-----------------------------
Kevin & Theresa Miller
>
> Hello Steve,
>
> As you know, I have been testing and researching various oil finishes
> for an article that will appear in "Woodturning" magazine early next
> year. I noticed your post about ProFin and wanted to clarify the
> ingredients, because you were given incorrect information by this paint
> dealer.
>
> Daly's ProFin Finish does NOT contain any Tung Oil, not even a single
> and Alkybenzenes. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to
> contact me. Take care and all the best to you and yours!
What about the Sea-Fin? Any idea on that?
Paul T. Radovanic
Excellent stuff, Steve! Thank you!
Paul Rad
On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:52:16 GMT, "Steven D. Russell"
<ben...@flash.net> wrote:
>Hello W. Sugai,
>
>I noticed your post on the Daly's finishes and wanted to offer the
>following information to help identify the ingredient differences
>between these products.
>
>Daly's ProFin Finish: ProFin contains Urethane and Alkyd resins with
>Mineral Spirits
>and Alkybenzenes. It does not contain any Tung Oil.
>
>Daly's FloorFin Finish: FloorFin contains Alykd and oil modified
>Urethane resins with Mineral Spirits and Alkybenzenes. It does not
>contain any Tung Oil.
>
>Daly's SeaFin Teak Oil Finish: SeaFin Teak oil contains Tung Oil, Alkyd
>and Urethane resins with Mineral Spirits and Alkybenzenes.
>
>Daly's SeaFin Super Spar Finish: Super Spar contains Phenolic Alkyd
>Varnish and a bit of Tung Oil, but no Urethane with Mineral Spirits and
>Alkybenzenes.
>
>Daly's BenMatte Natural Tung Oil Finish: BenMatte contains Tung Oil,
>Linseed Oil and Urethane resins with Mineral Spirits and Alkybenzenes.
>
>I hope this clears up any confusion about these finishing products. If
Steven D. Russell
Send me some COOOOOOOOOOOOL weather!!! :-) It's getting bloody hot in
Houston again. :-( This is a copy of a post for another member that
should answer your questions.
Copy starts:
I noticed your post on the Daly's finishes and wanted to offer the
following information to help identify the ingredient differences
between these products.
Daly's ProFin Finish: ProFin contains Urethane and Alkyd resins with
Mineral Spirits
and Alkybenzenes. It does not contain any Tung Oil.
Daly's FloorFin Finish: FloorFin contains Alykd and oil modified
Urethane resins with Mineral Spirits and Alkybenzenes. It does not
contain any Tung Oil.
Daly's SeaFin Teak Oil Finish: SeaFin Teak oil contains Tung Oil, Alkyd
and Urethane resins with Mineral Spirits and Alkybenzenes.
Daly's SeaFin Super Spar Finish: Super Spar contains Phenolic Alkyd
Varnish and a bit of Tung Oil, but no Urethane with Mineral Spirits and
Alkybenzenes.
Daly's BenMatte Natural Tung Oil Finish: BenMatte contains Tung Oil,
Linseed Oil and Urethane resins with Mineral Spirits and Alkybenzenes.
I hope this clears up any confusion about these finishing products. If
you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. Take care
and all the best to you and yours!
--
Letting the chips fly...
Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas
Website coming soon!
james_...@excite.com
With all the information being given out here about applying a
penetrating oil finish on top deft or other wood seal coats, I was
beginning to think only I, must be doing it all wrong, by applying
multiple coats to build a finish.
BTW, I like tung oil.
Jim...
In article <39F63B19...@uswest.net>,
stevet...@uswest.net wrote:
> Don,
>
> Tung oil is good for that, for sure. But that's the point, too.
Tung oil is a
> penetrating oil, and that is what it does. To get a surface build of
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Steve Tiedman
Steve Tiedman
stevet...@uswest.net
----------------------------
Mike Paulson
>>I went looking for Tru-Oil only once, and found a little 3-oz bottle at
>>the sporting goods dept at Walmart. Where can it be found in larger
>>quantities?
>Tru-oil is available from Birchwood Casey: 800-328-6156, 612-937-7933,
>(fax) 612-937-7979, (web) birchwoodcasey.com
>7900 Fuller Rd. Eden Prairie, MN 55344
>Cost is: 3 oz @ 5.20, 8 oz @ 9.20, 16 oz @ 16.60, gallon @ 49.70.
Hi Steve,
Sorry for the very slow reply, I haven't been finding time to do email
lately. I checked in at the newsgroup for the first time in over a week
and found the reply from Cindy, so you have all the information that I
know of. Cindy and I ordered a couple gallons from the manufacturer at
what I thought was a bargain price: $50 / 4 = $12.50 per quart, as cheap
or cheaper than just about any quality finish you can buy. I used to live
in Denver where we could get Tru-Oil in pints and quarts at Paxton Lumber,
a big hardwood supplier in the area. I believe it was about $11 a pint
there, if I remember correctly. It is my favorite finish these days. It
is kind of thick right out of the can, so I thin it with mineral spirits
for penetration and ease of application, and sometimes apply it straight
if I want a quick surface build. It dries clear and hard and can be built
up to a high gloss shine rather easily. I rarely leave it that way,
usually preferring to cut it back to a matte finish with Hut on a buffing
wheel. My favorite thing about it is that it is not poisonous like most
other finishes, and still it is a high quality finish. As far as I know,
it contains no driers or solvents except what I add myself to thin it, and
I feel a lot more comfortable working with it than all those other
finishes that are full of cancer causing agents. Years ago I didn't worry
about that, but I spend a heck of a lot of time turning these days so I am
around finishes a lot, and it seems like everyone I know has a cancer
story. I knew several people who died from cancer, and that worries me.
I know that contact with wood finishes isn't the main reason people get
cancer, but I don't really care to add to my risk factor, either. Anyway,
try Tru-Oil, I highly recommend it.
best wishes,
-mike paulson, fort collins, co
cindy drozda
Hi Steve,
Do you know what "Alkybenzenes" are? And do you know if Tru-oil has driers
or is it just the polymerization that makes it dry so fast?
Thanks for the info about the contents of the Daly's finishes! If only we
knew what exactly was in all of the "oil" type finishes....proportions
would be nice too....
-CD-
boulder, co
Steven D. Russell
Hello Mike,
The MSDS sheet for Tru-Oil lists the following:
Odourless Mineral Spirits >37%
Dicyclopentadiene-Soya Copolymer <35%
Mineral Spirits <16%
Modified Linseed Oil <12%
This is simply modified vegetable oils, that are solvent reduced. Seems
pretty benign compared to some these days. I still do NOT use my bare
hands to apply it though. There is some risk with the Mineral Spirits,
so I just wear gloves. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate
to contact me. Take care and all the best to you and yours!
--
Letting the chips fly...
Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas
Website coming soon!
Paul T. Radovanic
>Hello Mike,
>The MSDS sheet for Tru-Oil lists the following:
>Odourless Mineral Spirits >37%
>Dicyclopentadiene-Soya Copolymer <35%
>Mineral Spirits <16%
>Modified Linseed Oil <12%
>This is simply modified vegetable oils, that are solvent reduced. Seems
>pretty benign compared to some these days. I still do NOT use my bare
>hands to apply it though. There is some risk with the Mineral Spirits,
>so I just wear gloves. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate
>to contact me. Take care and all the best to you and yours!
Thanks, yet again, Steve!
I often wondered if some people confused Tru-oil with another brand,
called Tried & True, which I just ordered from Jeff Jewitt at
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com and received today.
I ordered a quart each of the "danish oil" and the "varnish oil". The
label says that the products are free of petroleum products and heavy
metal driers, and states "pure linseed oil". It dries faster because
it is partially polymerized. I know this is repetition for most of
you. They unabashedly label it as "non-toxic".
Anyway, they make a big deal out of warning you against "flooding" the
wood the way you would with traditional oil finishes. They advise
thin coats, thin coats, thin coats. They go so far as to say that if
you see a little puddle in front of your rag as you are wiping it off
after soaking, you have applied too much oil. I don't know about you,
but I would call that... spare.
If you want to reduce the thick varnish oil a bit, they recommend
using their danish oil as a thinner, not some solvent.
My plan is to apply a sealer coat with the danish oil, then follow
with one topcoat of varnish oil, then see how it looks and performs
over time. I'm guessing that some woods will require more than that.
The stuff appears to be expensive by the ounce, but if it stretches as
far as I think it should with the thin coats, it will be well worth
it.
Just got some new cherry today, and I'm dying to try this Tried & True
stuff out. Linseed oil on cherry is a match made in heaven.
Paul Rad
Steven D. Russell
Thanks for your kind words. :-) My oil finish test includes Tried & True
Varnish Oil and the Danish Oil. I also have the English Polish, $36.00
per PINT! :-0 These are magnificent products, you will love working with
them. Pay head to their warning on THIN COATS! The Danish Oil has a
great viscosity for high speed lathe work. The thicker, very viscous
Varnish Oil and English Polish really need to be thinned a wee bit for
high speed work. However, if you have a good technique, you can use the
Varnish oil straight from the can. You must move quickly and cover the
surface first, before levelling it out.
If you really want to use the thicker VO and EP on the lathe, I have a
trick that works great... This will be in my oil test article, but I'll
tell 'ya anyway. The Varnish oil creates a MAGNIFICENT provocative gloss
surface that makes you want to jump in! The even thicker English Polish,
(get ready to mortgage the homestead) is indescribable! However, as I
mentioned due to the very viscous nature of these two finishes, you
either need to thin them a bit (w/ T&T Danish oil only!) or use a
synthetic pad to apply them.
I use a Varathane oil finish pad that is made to apply oil finishes to
floors WITHOUT leaving streaks. It is an orang-ish colour with a backing
of some sort. I cut a piece big enough to get a good grip on and wet it
with the DO. Remove excess and then dip it into the VO or EP finish and
load the fibers a bit. Use this saturated pad to apply it to the piece
at your preferred rpm. On small items, I use 3,000 rpm. The Varnish oil
will create a gloss surface in one coat, but it's better with two and
blows you away with three!!!!!!!!!!! :-)
They must be very thin, or it will never cure properly. The Varathane
pad costs about three bucks and is about 9" x 4.5" or so. I working on
less than eight hours total sleep in the last five days, so the
measurements may be off a bit. You can get it at Home Depot. This is
much better than kitchen papers or mucking about with a brush. Of
course, I think you do more case work than lathe work, so this may not
be applicable. Both of these products brush well also. You will like the
T&T products, I sure do. WOW, what a finish with the VO and EP!!! :-)
Take care and all the best to you and yours!
--
Letting the chips fly...
Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas
Website coming soon!
Steven D. Russell
The MSDS contents of Tru-Oil list the following:
Odourless Mineral Spirits >37%
Dicyclopentadiene-Soya Copolymer <35%
Mineral Spirits <16%
Modified Linseed Oil <12%
(This is simply modified vegetable oils, that are solvent reduced).
Alkybenzenes are Benzene Alkyl derivatives (C1-9). ACX=X1028614-3,
CAS=68515-25-3. It's really hard to get ingredient information on some
products. Manufacturer's claim "Trade Secrets" and mum's the word... The
MSDS sheets only list hazardous ingredients, so anything not required to
be disclosed is usually not listed.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. Take
care and all the best to you and yours!
--
Letting the chips fly...
Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas
Website coming soon!
cindy drozda
Good point about how easy it might be to confuse Tried & True with
Tru-oil...I have used both, and the biggest difference I found was that
the Tried & True (100% polymerized linseed oil, whatever they call it)
takes longer to dry. Tried & True says on the can recoat after 24 hours,
and Tru-oil says after 2 hours! Tried & True is also very thick, like you
noticed. I thinned some with Sutherland & wells polymerized tung oil with
good results, but I'm so fond of the 2 hour drying time that I use Tru-oil
more often.
Since Steve's post about the ingredients in Tru-oil, I realize there is
another big difference - Tru-oil has only 12% polymerized linseed oil, and
is about half solvent! Tried & True, as I remember, boasts of 100%
polymerized linseed oil (sounds like a good potential ingredient for a
brew-your-own finish).
Another polymerized linseed oil finish that might be of interest is
Bio-shield's "Natural Resin Floor Finish". No petroleum solvents (thinned
with citrus), contains other resins as well as polymerized linseed oil.
This stuff (used to be called "Boat Finish") is meant to be brused on thin
and let dry without wiping off, like a "varnish". I have used it as a
brush on & wipe off finish, and found it to get tacky very fast when not
thinned, requiring attention to the wiping off stage or it gets too gummy
to wipe off (when this happens, I just brush on more oil or some of the
solvent of choice, and wipe off). I have also used this thinned with
Sutherland & Welles polymerized tung oil, and I like it better than Tried
& True. Probably builds better due to the resin ingredients. Still takes
longer to dry, only one coat per day (or 2 in a very long day!).
To put things in perspective, we should keep in mind that whenever I talk
about "good results" with a finish, I mean that in relation to my own
objectives. I make small production items for a living, so I need to spend
a minimum of time on finishing, while still getting a nice looking and
feeling finish. I require that a finish build sufficiently in 2 coats
because of this. And since I'm always very far behind, drying time is a
concern, too. Actually, a fast drying finish also gets the items off the
finishing table faster, making room for the next batch. I also want to use
"non-toxic" finishes, both for my own health, and for the envirnmental
concerns of myself and my customers. I started this business thinking that
the customers would really appreciate it if I used non-petroleum,
renewable, non-toxic finishing products...but I have come to find out that
nobody cares about that! ...so I may as well use polyurethane and
lacquer....
-CD-
boulder, co
Steven D. Russell
There are eight different Bioshield oil finishes in my current oil
finish test! :-) Several of these make excellent high speed finishes.
One of my upcoming tests will concern home-made finishes (handcrafted
from scratch) and those cobbled together from various manufactured
finishes. It seems like most of have a burning desire to tinker about
with our tools and finishes.
Have either of you begun "washing" your raw Linseed oil to remove the
mucilage? I know there are several refined Linseed oils available, but I
have not been able to determine if any of them have 100% of the mucilage
removed. When I get closer to the home-made finish test, I will dig
deeper into the dark and mysterious world of heirloom finish formulas...
:-) You know, those formulas handed down from father to son and mother
to daughter, in darkened corners of rooms in a hushed silence, with the
recipient bound to lifelong secrecy. Oh well, some manufacturers would
have you believe such nonsense anyway!
Perhaps one (or both) of you would like to contribute your favourite
(handcrafted) finish formula for the testing. :-) Take care and all the
best to you and yours! Oh well, back to my experiments. "Igor, help me
lug these oil finishes back to my laboratory"... "Yes, heir Doktor".
Hehehehe. <VBG>
--
Letting the chips fly...
Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio
The Woodlands, Texas
Website coming soon!
mhordam
> I also want to use
> "non-toxic" finishes, both for my own health, and for the envirnmental
> concerns of myself and my customers. I started this business thinking
that
> the customers would really appreciate it if I used non-petroleum,
> renewable, non-toxic finishing products...but I have come to find out
that
> nobody cares about that! ...so I may as well use polyurethane and
> lacquer....
>
> -CD-
> boulder, co
>
They've got to learn so don't give up and besides you can't backtrack
on your own concerns. I talk to my customers about the salad bowls
having only an edible oil finish or no finish at all and their eyes
glaze over. You just know it's going to end up in a dishwasher coated
in miracle shine and sparkle.
--
Regards,
Brian.
http://www.molehillturnery.co.uk
The best tools on the planet @ The best prices in cyberspace
Paul T. Radovanic
Cindy,
Thanks for your reply. I've been meaning to try the S&W tung
products. I don't buy pure tung oil any more. I like it; it smells
wonderful, and *if* you do it right, it's a beautiful finish. But if
anything goes wrong, it frosts over and then your only choice is to
strip and start over. If you have the time and patience to apply four
coats, seven days apart, it can be stunning. But I've heard lots of
good things about the S&W polymerized tung oils, so I'll probably get
some.
I just bought this Tried & True Linseed Oil because I wanted a totally
non-toxic finish for some stuff I'm building for my granddaughter, and
I think enough of Jeff Jewitt that I enjoy buying from him -- and what
he carries is the Tried & True. When you buy from Jeff, you get his
considerable advice and expertise along with it -- he has written a
couple excellent finishing books, and he contributes articles to
magazines like Fine Woodworking.
As for your production turning situation, I really think you should
explore shellac. You can learn more, and get great prices over at
http://www.shellac.net from Patrick Olguin. Obligatory disclaimer:
Pat's a buddy, and he does have one of my quotes on his web page, but
I have no financial interest there -- I pay the same price for my
shellac as everyone else. He has every variety of shellac under the
sun, and he imports directly from the source, in India. But
personally, I like to keep things simple. I stock up on only three
flavors: Dewaxed Garnet, which is a beautiful, deep golden color and
looks great on walnut, mahogany, and pine; then I keep some of a
really light dewaxed color, either the blonde, superblonde, or
Platina. All three will appear to be pretty much clear on any wood
except the really white woods, like holly. The third shellac I keep
on hand is buttonlac. It has a very high wax content, and it dries to
the hardest film for a shellac. The high wax content means two
things: it will appear to be a bit more satin in sheen, and it also
sands easier. The hardness of the film is a minor thing, but it makes
a difference in certain projects. It has a more orange tint.
Anyway, with shellac, I can achieve a beautiful finish on the lathe
lickety-split. Plus, it's stress-free, because it's the easiest
finish to repair. It's not a perfect finish -- it won't withstand hot
water or alcoholic products, like beverages or cologne. But it stands
up just fine to water and moderate abrasion. And it has the best
clarity of any finish on the market. It's the most beautiful finish,
hands down, IMHO.
Try this: On your next turning, apply a thin coat of some kind of
oil, let soak for a minute, then wipe dry, maybe burnish with
shavings. Then immediately, while the wood is still damp with the
oil, apply shellac with a rag while the piece is slowly spinning. Let
it dry for a second, then apply another rub with shellac. Experiment
with how many trips across the spinning piece you can make until it
starts to grab. This will vary with wood type and the environmental
conditions of your shop on any given day. At this point, you may
decide that it looks good enough -- I often do. But being a hobbyist,
I'm never in a hurry. So I can let the piece sit overnight, then come
back the next day, and rub it out with a mixture of wax and
rottenstone. That makes for a finish that is beautiful and silky
smooth to the touch. I have no experience with whether that matters
to a gallery customer or not. If you decide that you want to do the
wax/rottenstone treatment, and you want to push the envelope on the
cure-time, you can try it after an hour or three. Find out what works
for you. I hope you find some of that useful.
On Sat, 28 Oct 2000, "Steven D. Russell" wrote:
>Have either of you begun "washing" your raw Linseed oil to remove the
>mucilage? I know there are several refined Linseed oils available, but I
>have not been able to determine if any of them have 100% of the mucilage
>removed.
Steve,
I am brand-spanking new to raw and polymerized oils, so I haven't even
considered this. As for any special homebrews, I don't have any
specific recipes. When I mix a homebrew, I stare past my thumbnail
and just add a bit of this and a bit of that, which unfortunately
doesn't lend itself to empirical testing. But one thing I have been
thinking about is using walnut oil with shellac. I've been buying
small bottles of flavored & scented walnut salad oil at the gourmet
section at the grocery, and I use it for my cutting boards. I've been
meaning to buy a gallon of pure, unflavored, unscented walnut oil from
http://www.woodlandnut.com but I haven't done it yet. I will
eventually. Then I'd like to try applying it to raw wood, and follow
with the shellac-wipe, as described above. It seems that the shellac
would mix and make it dry to the touch in a few minutes, just like it
does with boiled linseed oil. But I'd like to experiment with it to
be sure. I guess the only reason I've procrastinated is that Woodland
Nut doesn't take internet orders. I called them once, and they don't
even take credit cards over the phone, so I would have to get off my
lazy butt and write a check and stamp an envelope. Horrors. I guess
they are geared more toward the 55-gallon drum type of customer, as
opposed to my one-gallon-per-year usage level, so I don't blame them.
I'll get around to it one of these days.
I'll keep an eye out for mucilage! I opened the Tried & True "danish
oil" last night, and I didn't see any stringy thingies floating around
in there. But, boy-oh-boy, did it ever make that cherry stand up and
sing!
Paul Rad
Steven D. Russell
"Paul T. Radovanic" wrote:
> Steve,
>
> I am brand-spanking new to raw and polymerized oils, so I haven't even
> considered this. As for any special homebrews, I don't have any
> specific recipes. When I mix a homebrew, I stare past my thumbnail
> and just add a bit of this and a bit of that, which unfortunately
> doesn't lend itself to empirical testing.
The more you delve into finishes, the more you want to! I use
Polymerized oils frequently, give these a good look... they can be quite
magnificent. :-) The washing of raw Linseed oil is a pain, but it's
worth it. If you ever get into this. let me know. I can give you the
protocol for the washing procedure, which takes several days!
> I'll keep an eye out for mucilage! I opened the Tried & True "danish
> oil" last night, and I didn't see any stringy thingies floating around
> in there. But, boy-oh-boy, did it ever make that cherry stand up and
> sing!
Hehehehe, just wait grasshopper... wait until you use the Varnish oil!!!
If you get to feeling flush one day, pick up a can of the English
Polish! Yowsa! It'll knock your socks off and thin your wallet at the
same time. :-0
>
> Paul Rad