Teknatool Nova DVR 3000 Woodlathe
Ian Fish
on Google over the past few days and am intrigued and a bit amused by
the things you guys want answers on.
I have been a professional turner for the past 11 years and a hobbyist
for 15 years prior to that. I supply the NZ gallery market and a
little bit overseas doing mainly presentation style bowls and
platters. I am not employed by Teknatool but do demos
or them and other manufacturers of products that I believe in and have
confidence in. I have had a DVR 3000 for 9 months and have done
hundreds of hours , all faceplate work ranging from about 25" diameter
x 5" thick, but the vast majority around 14" x
.
When I first sighted the NOVA DVR 3000 my first reaction was - the
STOP button is not big enough, the change of speed is too slow, the
start up time is too slow, doesn't it make a funny noise, what do
these other buttons do?, isn't it SMOOTH.
Now, can I please respond to some of your concerns as I see it anyway.
Default speed 1500rpm
This only comes up after the lathe has been switched off either by the
switch at the outboard end of the headstock or by the wall switch. If
this troubles you, don't switch the thing off.
The 1500rpm was chosen, I am told, simply because it was roughly in
the middle of the operating range - faceplate turners will use
500-2000rpm and between center turners 1000-3000rpm.
My DVR never gets turned off, that is, the electronics are always
alive and the speed that the lathe is going to go if it was to be
turned on is right there in your face on the screen. Surely this is
safer than having to check the belt position on a ‘n
mal' lathe.
Minimum speed 250 rpm
There has been all sorts of technical reasons suggested as to why
Teknatool selected this speed as the slowest the thing will go. I'm
only a humble wood turner and have no idea or interest either actually
but I do know this - as an experienced wood tur
r if your piece of wood causes the lathe to bounce around at 250rpm
you'd better do some more trimming and what's more to the point it's
very difficult to turn an "out of round" piece of wood at 250rpm -
what happens? bump, bump, bump with the gouge rep
led by the bumps every time. I'd even suggest that turning at 250rpm
on an "out of round" piece of wood is potentially dangerous and
certainly not for the faint hearted anyway - bet I get some mail of
that!
And hey guys, just remember what you bought - this is a medium priced,
medium weight wood lathe - I can't load my trailer with one and a half
tonnes of wood and expect my wife's 1600cc Toyota to tow it.
Heat from the motor
When I first got my lathe Teknatool told me to try to kill it "Ian
we'd really like you to thrash it to bits" so I have. The motor, even
after 10 hours of hard work, has never got more than luke warm, and
only around the bearings, the sort of temperatur
that an ordinary AC motor would be at say after 10 - 20 minutes.
Delivery
I've now had 2 DVR 3000s. The first one came from the first batch that
was sent to the US. The NZ voltage is 240 volts so I had to run it
through a transformer. Then, just after Christmas Teknatool had the
componetry ready to manufacture 240 volt machin
and so they swapped mine over. Take heart you guys in the US - apart
from a few out there in NZ being "seeded" as someone said, there are
no lathes available in NZ yet but we are promised some in June.
In NZ there have been rumours and speculation on this lathe for about
12 months and great anticipation. Everyone without exception, who's
had a go on it, I believe, has been highly impressed.
So be patient in the queue you guys in the US.
Problems with speed readout. I have no idea what the problem has been.
Both my machines have been really worked and I have tried hard to
fault the electronics. One of my main concerns was that vibration
could cause a failure of the electrics. I can t
l you, hand on heart, that I have not had a fault or failure of any
kind. However, having said that there will be some no doubt as more
machines get onto workshop floors, even Rolls Royce cars do break down
I suppose.
If you have a problem I'm sure Teknatool would like to know about it
so e-mail them. I believe they have good integrity ( a bit slow
sometimes though) and they will fix it or get it fixed.
Internal fan
Yes the DVR 3000 has one. Air is sucked from the outboard end of the
headstock and exhausted in the gap just under the headstock shaft.
Speed of RPM change
At first I found this tiresome but now I find that I am not making
such dramatic changes and even if I am it's still a darn sight quicker
than changing a belt position. One problem with a knob type of quick
speed adjustment is that you may accelerate o
decelerate too quickly. You can quickly have an out of balance
situation or if decelerating too quickly even unscrew the work piece
from the spindle.
Someone said "Teknatool is a day late and a dollar short. There are
too many unanswered questions about the technology and its
implementation and Teknatool isn't talking." WELL WHY SHOULD
THEY!!!!!!!!!!
If you've got the fastest car on the race track you don't tell
everybody else why do you?
This is a pretty harsh criticism. In my opinion they have produced a
revolutionary variable speed motor/headstock with almost straight line
torque curve over the rev range. It has a power response "brain".
It has no vibration - get that you guys NO VIBRATION. I can stand a
NZ $2 coin on the top of the headstock, start the lathe at 250rpm and
run up to 3500rpm. I've done this in demos. Try that with other
lathes. I bet you have to spend many more dolla
than you do for the DVR3000 and I bet it will weigh much much more.
I don't care how it works just that it DOES.
Teknatool have developed a motor system which incidentally is covered
by patents which is revolutionary - no vibration, no pulsing, full
power through the range. Then what about the new tailstock, the
extended nose bearing housing, swivel head, ergonom
ally friendly, cam lock tool slide, outrigger system, extendable bed,
precision machining throughout. I've been through the Teknatool
factory and seen the machinery used to produce their product. This is
no mickey mouse operation not quite as big as G
eral Motors yet, but working on it.
Well guys, in summary, I've done many hundreds of hours on the
Teknatool DVR 3000. I believe in the technology. I'm turning faster
and better and I have no real complaints. I'm turning bowls about 500
rpm faster than I was able to on my other lathe w
ch is a very heavy flat bed ex-engineer's lathe. Someone suggested
that the effect of having the motor and headstock as one unit was like
a gyroscope. If you've ever held a gyroscope you'll know how hard it
is to move it from its position. Someone el
suggested that perhaps the magnetic fields in the motor were
countering any vibration. Anyway, people who have used this lathe
have been most impressed by its steadiness and its ability to counter
vibration.
I do have some concerns still about the control panel but I'm sort of
getting used to it. Why they give us buttons and then say don't use
them is a bit of a PR blunder perhaps. I believe the tool rest could
be improved but the new tailstock is superb.
It appears to me that the most critical letters came from folk who
hadn't used the lathe and were a bit peeved that Teknatool wouldn't
tell them how it worked or gave a condescending response. Go out there
and try the lathe.
On reading this through I seem to give the impression that I'm
enthusiastic about the DVR 3000, well frankly I am.
Ian Fish
Lyn J. Mangiameli
It's nice of you to take the time to fill us in on your experiences. The
more user reports we are exposed to the more material to factor into
individual decisions. I'll take this opportunity to address some of the
points you made, with comments interspersed amongst yours.
Ian Fish wrote:
> I have been reading the letters concerning the Teknatool NOVA DVR 3000
> on Google over the past few days and am intrigued and a bit amused by
> the things you guys want answers on.
Only took an interest in us in the last few days, huh. Must have been
some pretty heavy reading. But just think of all the time you've missed
having the opportunity to be amused by us.
>
> I have been a professional turner for the past 11 years and a hobbyist
> for 15 years prior to that. I supply the NZ gallery market and a
> little bit overseas doing mainly presentation style bowls and
> platters. I am not employed by Teknatool but do demos
> or them and other manufacturers of products that I believe in and have
> confidence in. I have had a DVR 3000 for 9 months and have done
> hundreds of hours , all faceplate work ranging from about 25" diameter
> x 5" thick, but the vast majority around 14" x
It's really useful for us to have the insight of someone who both
understands the experience of recreational woodturners and also has the
perspective of 10 years of professional work. BTW the majority of your
work was sized as 14 inches by what?
>
> .When I first sighted the NOVA DVR 3000 my first reaction was - the
> STOP button is not big enough, the change of speed is too slow, the
> start up time is too slow, doesn't it make a funny noise, what do
> these other buttons do?, isn't it SMOOTH.
Indeed you seem to describe the mixed observations of many of us.
>
> Now, can I please respond to some of your concerns as I see it anyway.
Of course, that's what this newsgroup is all about. Most folks here come
to learn all that they can.
>
> Default speed 1500rpm
>
> This only comes up after the lathe has been switched off either by the
> switch at the outboard end of the headstock or by the wall switch. If
> this troubles you, don't switch the thing off.
Good point.
> The 1500rpm was chosen, I am told, simply because it was roughly in
> the middle of the operating range - faceplate turners will use
> 500-2000rpm and between center turners 1000-3000rpm.
Yes, but as you note, turners who tend towards one style or another are
going to be inconvenienced. Better that the default start up speed be
user determined.
> My DVR never gets turned off, that is, the electronics are always
> alive and the speed that the lathe is going to go if it was to be
> turned on is right there in your face on the screen. Surely this is
> safer than having to check the belt position on a ‘n
> mal' lathe.
I miss your point. If the lathe is stopped, there is no safety issue
either way. For both, you must be at the headstock end to observe the
general (or in the case of the DVR, specific) speed range. If one
generally uses only one or two pulley settings, one doesn't even have to
go to the headstock to know approximately the speed range one will be in,
with the DVR one must if it is left on as you suggest. More
significantly, most 3000 owners in the US use DC variable speed motors
with analog setting of speed control. For most placements of the
controls, one can observe the setting from afar. More significanlty,
nearly all persons I know who use variable speed turn their speed control
down to zero at the end of turning, and again check that the speed
control is set at zero before starting up. Frankly, I think if there is
any difference in safety with respect to speed control, at least as you
discuss it, it is in the direction of the VS Nova 3000s being the safer.
>
> Minimum speed 250 rpm
>
> There has been all sorts of technical reasons suggested as to why
> Teknatool selected this speed as the slowest the thing will go. I'm
> only a humble wood turner and have no idea or interest either actually
That is fine for you to approach things as you do, but for many of us an
understanding of the technical rationale is of significance and helps us
make more informed choices. I for one, like to know how and why things
work and see such curiosity of advantage to me.
>
> but I do know this - as an experienced wood tur
> r if your piece of wood causes the lathe to bounce around at 250rpm
> you'd better do some more trimming and what's more to the point it's
> very difficult to turn an "out of round" piece of wood at 250rpm -
> what happens? bump, bump, bump with the gouge rep
> led by the bumps every time. I'd even suggest that turning at 250rpm
> on an "out of round" piece of wood is potentially dangerous and
> certainly not for the faint hearted anyway - bet I get some mail of
> that!
Frankly, I think you have just made the point for why a 250 rpm minimum
speed is totally unsatisfactory. I agree, I don't want my wood bouncing
around at 250 rpm, rather, a slower speed will be safer and less abusive
to me, the tools, and the lathe. I totally agree, it is difficult to turn
an "out of round" piece of wood at 250 rpm, so lets not, let's turn the
speed down to something that is safe (unless, of course, your lathe won't
let you, but then that's a severe deficit of the lathe).
> And hey guys, just remember what you bought - this is a medium priced,
> medium weight wood lathe - I can't load my trailer with one and a half
> tonnes of wood and expect my wife's 1600cc Toyota to tow it.
Now let me get this straight, you have spent 100s of hours using this
lathe, tried unsuccessfully to thrash it, told us of the big wood you
have turned on it, and have used it for the better part of a year,
apparently, as the primary lathe for your professional work, and now you
want to tell us that we're supposed to coddle this "medium weight wood
lathe." Let me quote directly from the DVR manual, page 2: "Well proven
design, the Nova 3000 is made from Cast Iron components for strength and
rigidity. Added features like the heavy duty twin bearing system, and
special webbed bed design makes the lathe well equiped to take heavy
turning stresses." Gee, the authorities on this lathe, in the manual they
have written for it, assure us it is "equiped to take heavy turning
stresses." In contrast, I feel confident that Toyota has not informed you
that your wife's car is suitable for the "heavy ...stresses" of towing
1.5 tons of wood.
>
> Heat from the motor
>
> When I first got my lathe Teknatool told me to try to kill it "Ian
> we'd really like you to thrash it to bits" so I have. The motor, even
> after 10 hours of hard work, has never got more than luke warm, and
> only around the bearings, the sort of temperatur
> that an ordinary AC motor would be at say after 10 - 20 minutes.
Thank you for providing this useful information.
>
> Delivery
> I've now had 2 DVR 3000s. The first one came from the first batch that
> was sent to the US. The NZ voltage is 240 volts so I had to run it
> through a transformer. Then, just after Christmas Teknatool had the
> componetry ready to manufacture 240 volt machin
> and so they swapped mine over.
How sad they have deprived us of the 240 volt version. For many of us
existing Nova 3000 owners, we have already wired for 220 at our lathes.
Originally Teknatool told us the lathe would operate on any voltage from
90 to 250 volts. It has been a great dissapointment that such promises
were abandoned. The existing lathe likely will require a dedicated 15 amp
circuit; something that may be just as expensive or difficult to achieve
as a proper 220 line.
> Take heart you guys in the US - apart
> from a few out there in NZ being "seeded" as someone said, there are
> no lathes available in NZ yet but we are promised some in June.
How unfortuante for us both, given that we (at least those of us in the
US) were first led to believe that the lathes would be in full supply
before the end of last year.
>
> In NZ there have been rumours and speculation on this lathe for about
> 12 months and great anticipation. Everyone without exception, who's
> had a go on it, I believe, has been highly impressed.
I'm not sure whether to be encouraged or discouraged by this. Encouraged
that some aspects of the lathe can generate such enthusiasm; discouraged
that you were so blinded to its severe deficits.
>
> So be patient in the queue you guys in the US.
Why?
>
> Problems with speed readout. I have no idea what the problem has been.
> Both my machines have been really worked and I have tried hard to
> fault the electronics. One of my main concerns was that vibration
> could cause a failure of the electrics. I can t
> l you, hand on heart, that I have not had a fault or failure of any
> kind. However, having said that there will be some no doubt as more
> machines get onto workshop floors, even Rolls Royce cars do break down
> I suppose.
>
> If you have a problem I'm sure Teknatool would like to know about it
> so e-mail them. I believe they have good integrity ( a bit slow
> sometimes though) and they will fix it or get it fixed.
Yes, I agree, both with regards to the occassional slowness, and that
Teknatool and particularly their North American distributors have
provided generally outstanding customer support. It makes it a lot easier
to consider such a new and different lathe, knowing their track record of
excellent and generous product support
>
> Internal fan
>
> Yes the DVR 3000 has one. Air is sucked from the outboard end of the
> headstock and exhausted in the gap just under the headstock shaft.
Thank you for confirming this. Can you tell us a bit more about it's
operation.
>
> Speed of RPM change
>
> At first I found this tiresome but now I find that I am not making
> such dramatic changes and even if I am it's still a darn sight quicker
> than changing a belt position. One problem with a knob type of quick
> speed adjustment is that you may accelerate o
> decelerate too quickly. You can quickly have an out of balance
> situation or if decelerating too quickly even unscrew the work piece
> from the spindle.
Yes, I'm sure that the DVR does change speed faster than I can move a
belt, but then with a 1.5 hp VS motor and doing mostly faceplate work, I
never change pulley settings very often, and virtually never use more
than two of them. The rest of the time, the typical DC VS motor
controller allows very smooth speed adjustment from near zero rpm (note
this, from near zero rpm) up to the maximum speed of the pulley selected.
One has immediate control not only of the speed, but of the rate of speed
change. The DVR controller may allow one control over speed, but it
doesn't allow immediate control of the rate of speed change. As someone
with your many years of turning experience, I'm sure much more than once,
something has happened while turning that made you wish to reduce the
lathe speed considerably and rapidly. Yes, it is theoretically possible
to use the traditional potentiometer style speed adjustment to change
speed more rapidly than might be wise, but it is not hard to achieve
control over that on the Minarik and Pentapower controllers used in
North America. It strikes me that any turner with the fine motor
coordination to shear scrape with a bowl gouge, or the proprioceptive
abilities required for blind hollowing will find sensitive use of the
traditional speed control to be no problem.
>
> Someone said "Teknatool is a day late and a dollar short.
Actually, I follow this group fairly closely and don't recall that phrase
being used. But even if so, what's your point?
> There are
> too many unanswered questions about the technology and its
> implementation and Teknatool isn't talking." WELL WHY SHOULD
> THEY!!!!!!!!!!
Are the capitals and profusion of exclamation marks to indicate that you
wish us to understand you are shouting at us. If so, I hardly find that
necessary or civil. Your introductory statement actually stands quite
well by itself, indeed "there are too many unanswered questions about the
technology and its implementation" and no, Teknatool has not been very
forthcoming, tending to give us what they admittedly understand is
watered down marketing babble rather than accurate technical information.
Perhaps you appreciate being treated as a feeble minded child, but many
of us in this newsgroup don't. We actually have many who are quite
advanced in the understanding of a wide range of technical subjects, and
most in this group quite like learning more and advancing our
understanding. Teknatool has done very little to advance anyone's
understanding. Perhaps why so much speculation takes place, is that we
have received exceedingly little hard information that will allow us to
move beyond speculation to an accurate understanding of the facts. Again,
I don't take well to being treated like a child who is told "there there
now, this will be good for you so just come along." Yet to a great
extent that has been the attitude we have received: " We know this lathe
will be good for you, so just accept it and don't question us about it."
So, I believe I have shown "why should they." Put more succintly, they
should because it shows respect for the potential customer and enhances
their own credibility. That's why.
> If you've got the fastest car on the race track you don't tell
> everybody else why do you?
Now I'm having difficulty finding consistency in your remarks. Just a
while ago you were telling us to "remember what you bought - this is a
medium priced, medium weight wood lathe" and now you wish us to accept
your analogy of that same lathe as "the fastest car on the race track."
Is it that you are confused about your own feelings about this lathe, or
is it that you would just like us to mindlessly accept whatever
allegation serves your purpose at the moment.
>
>
> This is a pretty harsh criticism.
What is "this." Are you referrng to your ranting in print up above, or
are you contending that those who would dare express their concern and
dismay that their inquiries go unanswered, or are responded to evasively,
are guilty of harshness?
> In my opinion they have produced a
> revolutionary variable speed motor/headstock with almost straight line
> torque curve over the rev range. It has a power response "brain".
First you tell me that you are "only a humble wood turner and have no
idea or interest " in technical matters, and now you are technologically
sophisticated enough to evaluate whether the DVR motor is "revolutionary"
(which I guess in the root sense it is, it causes the spindle to revolve
round and round just like any other lathe's spindle rvolves round and
round"). And is it in your role as technological sophisticate or "humble
wood turner" that you wish to inform us that it "has a power response
'brain'." I suppose you demand again that we should not delve more deeply
into just what is "a power response 'brain'." Actually, I know a lot
about brains, and not that lathe nor any other has one.
>
> It has no vibration - get that you guys NO VIBRATION. I can stand a
> NZ $2 coin on the top of the headstock, start the lathe at 250rpm and
> run up to 3500rpm. I've done this in demos. Try that with other
> lathes. I bet you have to spend many more dolla
> than you do for the DVR3000 and I bet it will weigh much much more.
I see you are convinced we cannot follow your remarks unless you shout at
us. Interestingly, the only use report we have of a lathe obtained in the
US contains clear statements that there was a a range of vibration that
occured with his lathe. Again, which is it. Is the DVR the 'fastest race
car on the track" or are there indeed other lathes that might weigh more
and cost more that will perform at least as well, or should I say go at
least as fast. Frankly, it is quite OK with me if they want to make the
DVR weigh more, and they have already raised the price of the basic unit
rather substantially. I suspect that it would not take a cost accountant
long to show that the DVR likely has greater margin in it than its
predecessor.
>
> I don't care how it works just that it DOES.
I have no interest in attempting to encourage you to gain something more
than the most superficial familiarity with a product, but I wonder why it
seems so important to you that no one else does. Some of us just like to
approach life at a little deeper level, some of us gain more satisfaction
from an item when we know more about it, some of us care how something
works because then we believe we can make other reasoned judgments and
speculations with regards to such things as reliability, longevity, ease
of servicing, maximal performance, opportunity for modification and
improvement, and a host of other things. So I do care, and I think better
of a manufacturer who acknowledges and accommodates that.
>
> Teknatool have developed a motor system which incidentally is covered
> by patents which is revolutionary - no vibration, no pulsing, full
> power through the range.
Oh, you're back to being the technological sophisticate again. Too bad
that we are deprived of that "full power through the range" and
previously mentioned "almost straight line torque curve over the rev
range" by a lathe that is electronically limited to a minimum speed of
250 rpm.
> Then what about the new tailstock,
Yes, I am confident it will be a major improvement over the, at best,
marginally adequate one included with the Nova 3000. I am very pleased to
see it come to pass and from the looks of it, it should be quite good,
relative to the rest of the lathe.
> the
> extended nose bearing housing, swivel head,
These are nice, but offer no improvement over the existing Nova 3000
> ergonom
> ally friendly,
And just what are you referring to?
> cam lock tool slide,
hardly original or unique, and actually doesn't work as well as many.
> outrigger system,
Yes, really good. One of the strengths of this family of lathes, but not
new to the DVR.
> extendable bed,
Again, a nice feature, but not new to the DVR and not even unique with
respect to other lathes.
>
> precision machining throughout.
Adequate machining, and nothing more, at least as I can judge from the
many other Teknatool products I have used and seen. Probably the example
of their best machining is the Nova Compac chuck.
> I've been through the Teknatool
> factory and seen the machinery used to produce their product. This is
> no mickey mouse operation not quite as big as G
> eral Motors yet, but working on it.
It's obvious you have no grasp of General Motors. Regardless, the fact
that you have seen their factory has no bearing on whether anyone else
should find the DVR a worthy product.
>
> Well guys, in summary, I've done many hundreds of hours on the
> Teknatool DVR 3000. I believe in the technology.
But you say you don't care to know anything about it. I guess you must
then take it on faith. Might work for religion, but not a good policy
when purchasing a lathe.
> I'm turning faster
> and better and I have no real complaints.
Obviously, but have you given thought to just why and how it is that you
are turning faster. Is this something you can conciously reproduce on
other lathes, now that you have attained this new level, or is it an
improvement only wedded to a particular lathe.
> I'm turning bowls about 500
> rpm faster than I was able to on my other lathe w
> ch is a very heavy flat bed ex-engineer's lathe.
That this is the case says nothing in itself. It gives us little
understanding of the difference between the two machines, or allows us to
put your statement in the context of a lathe we might be familiar with.
> Someone suggested
> that the effect of having the motor and headstock as one unit was like
> a gyroscope. If you've ever held a gyroscope you'll know how hard it
> is to move it from its position. Someone el
> suggested that perhaps the magnetic fields in the motor were
> countering any vibration.
So a 1.5 HP Leeson, mounted to the rear of the headstock and turning at
sometimes higher speeds has a different effect than the putative
gyroscope effect "someone" suggested. "Magnetic fields countering any
vibration" ? Inquiring minds want to know.....
> Anyway, people who have used this lathe
> have been most impressed by its steadiness and its ability to counter
> vibration.
Yes, there does seem to be some consistency of opinion with regards to
its steadiness and smoothness (countering vibration is a phrase I've not
heard used before with regards to this lathe).
>
> I do have some concerns still about the control panel but I'm sort of
> getting used to it.
And you do not address the issue of the its fixed location making the
lathe unsafe and difficult to use for those who engage in the making of
hollow forms.
> Why they give us buttons and then say don't use
> them is a bit of a PR blunder perhaps.
Yes. And another symbol of an infantilazing approach to their customers
> I believe the tool rest could
> be improved
In what way would you like to see the too rest improved? What is the
weakness or problems associated with its use.
> but the new tailstock is superb.
Much improved, yes. Superb, no. A Nichols or Serious Lathe or Stubby or
Oneway might go unchallenged if called superb. Much improved as the new
tailstock is, it does not merit any objectivie ranking of superb.
>
> It appears to me that the most critical letters came from folk who
> hadn't used the lathe and were a bit peeved that Teknatool wouldn't
> tell them how it worked or gave a condescending response. Go out there
> and try the lathe.
Well now is it any great surprise that all the US "letters", not just the
critical ones, prior to a week ago came from people who hadn't used the
lathe, and since then we have only had reports from a single US turner
with experience with the lathe (who, by the way, describes performance
issues you say don't exist). Perhaps if Teknatool had met their own
expectations for product delivery, we would have had less speculation and
more reporting. Perhaps if Teknaool had chosen to seed a few lathes
within its dominant market, there would have been a little more factual
information. Perhaps if Teknatool had been less insular and sought the
input of US turners in the design stages, they might have learned that US
turners hold different criteria dear. It's ludicrous to try to blame
potential buyers for wishing to learn more about a product they are
interested in, and that is still relatively expensive as woodworking
tools go. And it is never good business practice to give what you have
characterised (and correctly in my opinion), a condescending response.
Very little of this long missive has been anything but an apology for the
DVR and a rebuke of those who would dare discuss its apparent or
potential failings. To my knowledge, you have never contributed to this
group before and give no indication you are interested in becoming active
in the group in the future. You just happened to decide to read all the
"letters concerning the Teknatool NOVA DVR 3000 on Google over the past
few days." You come across as a not very proficient "hired gun" to
defend Teknatool's honor and set fire to the heretics (I know, it's a
terrible mixed metaphor). At least that useless excuse for a DVR "review"
that is presented on the Teknatool website was innocous. Many of your
comments haven't been. It's bad enough you want to foist off your shallow
understanding of the DVR's you have been able to turn on for "hundreds
of hours," but you try to denigrate others for attempting to gain the
understanding you abdicate from.
>
> On reading this through I seem to give the impression that I'm
> enthusiastic about the DVR 3000, well frankly I am.
Yes, and how much of that was purchased with the DVR given to you.
I've had the opportunity to take part in R&D and product development,
evaluate a fair number of pre-production prototoypes, and receive items
for formal review. Those for whom I have done that know I learned about
their product in depth, described the product with as much objective
detail as possible, was completely candid about my impressions, never
pulled any punches for their benefit and certainly was never a hired gun
nor apologist for them. If you'd like to see how it can be done right, go
look at my LV LA review
http://www.wwforum.com/cgi-bin/forum_main/handtool.cgi?read=52413
the repost of a my LV 4.5 review
http://www.wwforum.com/cgi-bin/forum_main/handtool.cgi?read=52583
or the wonderful new ground covered in the report by Brent Beach
http://www.wwforum.com/cgi-bin/forum_main/handtool.cgi?read=52295
Lyn
Bruce
-Bruce
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CB81451...@earthlink.net...
Bill Brachhold
Another excellent review, although fanatical at times. I'd like to address
a few of your points. I will intersperse my comments. I have snipped
sections that I agree or cannot dispute you on.
ipf...@xtra.co.nz (Ian Fish) wrote in
news:82be7ec.02041...@posting.google.com:
> I have been reading the letters concerning the Teknatool NOVA DVR 3000
> on Google over the past few days and am intrigued and a bit amused by
> the things you guys want answers on.
> platters. I am not employed by Teknatool but do demos
> or them and other manufacturers of products that I believe in and have
I would suggest here that you may not be an "ubiased" reviewer. As you say,
you "do demos for them". This to me suggests that there may be a business
arrangement here, hence my "unbiased" comment.
> When I first sighted the NOVA DVR 3000 my first reaction was - the
> STOP button is not big enough, the change of speed is too slow, the
> start up time is too slow, doesn't it make a funny noise, what do
> these other buttons do?, isn't it SMOOTH.
Funny, these are the same objections and observations on this side of the
pond. I suggest, that if you, the professional, and many, many other
turners have come to the same conclusions, then MAYBE these objections
should have been addressed by the manufacturer.
> Default speed 1500rpm
> The 1500rpm was chosen, I am told, simply because it was roughly in
> the middle of the operating range - faceplate turners will use
> 500-2000rpm and between center turners 1000-3000rpm.
This is outright ridiculous. The controller has a MICROPROCESSOR for
heavens sake !! Any feature, such as ramp up time, rmap down time, min
speed, max speed, etc is EASILY accomplished. I have bought FIVE VFD
drives for my various lathes now and NONE of them are NOT at least
programmable in the basic functions(and more) than I mentioned above. One
of my drives has 72 programmable functions !!! granted, most of them will
be left at the manufacturers default, but at least they are there if I need
them. If Teknatool did it right, you will be able to replace a plugin chip
inside the control box at a later date and get enhanced programming
capabilites. Who knows, maybe it has it now with the "mystery buttons".
As has been mentioned, NOT everybody turns bowls and platters, and in equal
proportions all the time. Teknatool has made a compromise that won't be
good for anybody but the guy trying to sell one to a customer.
> Minimum speed 250 rpm
This again is EXACTLY the same as the previous reply EXCEPT with this added
comment. Teknatool has NEVER publically said why the minimum was set at
250. If you read the article on their website, they showed the lathe at
shows running at 40 RPM and dared people to stop it by grabbing a rag
wrapped around the spindle. I KNOW people that saw this article, said
"Wow, 40 RPM and that much torque !! This is going to be great." Then it
comes out at 250 RPM and isn't EVEN adjustable !!!
> we'd really like you to thrash it to bits" so I have. The motor, even
> after 10 hours of hard work, has never got more than luke warm, and
> only around the bearings, the sort of temperatur
This is caused by the rubber seals that Teknatool uses on their bearings to
keep the dirt out. This is a GOOD THING folks. The rubber seals, not the
heat, but I'll take the heat to get extended bearing life.
> Internal fan
> Yes the DVR 3000 has one. Air is sucked from the outboard end of the
> headstock and exhausted in the gap just under the headstock shaft.
Fans are good at keeping things cool but fans MUST be maintained. Worn out
fans/stopped fans are the leading cause of failure in PC power supplies. I
used to sell a bunch of PC power supplies because the $2 fan stopped. In
the dusty enviroment of woodturners, this may turn out to be a liablilty
instead of an asset.
> Speed of RPM change
> At first I found this tiresome but now I find that I am not making
> such dramatic changes and even if I am it's still a darn sight quicker
> than changing a belt position. One problem with a knob type of quick
Again, this is a simply programmable thing. If all you turn is spindles,
this will FLAT DRIVE YOU CRAZY every time you start the lathe or change the
speed. Come on Teknatool, give us some credit on knowing how to use a tool
!!
> This is a pretty harsh criticism. In my opinion they have produced a
> revolutionary variable speed motor/headstock with almost straight line
> torque curve over the rev range. It has a power response "brain".
Not so fast here. I guess the Poolewood doesn't count. The only real
difference here is that the Poolewood is using a conventional motor design
and conventional electronics and Teknatool is using a new motor design with
a new controller design. This may or may not be a good thing (new
design/unproven technology). I don't mind being on the leading edge, but I
stay as far away from the "bleeding edge" as possible !!
> It has no vibration - get that you guys NO VIBRATION. I can stand a
> NZ $2 coin on the top of the headstock, start the lathe at 250rpm and
> run up to 3500rpm. I've done this in demos. Try that with other
> lathes. I bet you have to spend many more dolla
This is a really GOOD thing. I'd love to turn on a vibrationless lathe.
Now, if I can just find some vibrationless wood blanks. Even a PERFECTLY
cut bowl blank will not be balanced. 250 RPM is too damn fast !!!
> Teknatool have developed a motor system which incidentally is covered
> by patents which is revolutionary - no vibration, no pulsing, full
> power through the range. Then what about the new tailstock, the
Can you point us to those patents ?? I'm assuming that those patents are
registerd with the US Patent Office, as this would be a good thing for
Teknatool to have done. If so, I for one, would like to see what makes
this a revolutionary design.
> I do have some concerns still about the control panel but I'm sort of
> getting used to it. Why they give us buttons and then say don't use
> them is a bit of a PR blunder perhaps. I believe the tool rest could
> be improved but the new tailstock is superb.
Its kind of ironic that literally EVERY N3K sold in the US with variable
speed has been of the detached controller/remote cable type. I guess this
raised the US turners expectations of Teknatool making a remote control
available for their new lathe.
I must admit, that this is a revoluntionary step forward for Teknatool and
lathes in general. Lets hope it is just a indicator of things to come from
them. They have great products, I own the Nova Comet and a SuperNova
chuck, and other small accessories.
Bill
Scott Post
Ian Fish <ipf...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>I have been reading the letters concerning the Teknatool NOVA DVR 3000
>on Google over the past few days and am intrigued and a bit amused by
>the things you guys want answers on.
>
<snip>
I took a class at Ernie Conover's shop last weekend and he turned on a
DVR all weekend. He, like you, was impressed by its smoothness and
power. I didn't turn on it and being a novice turner am not qualified
to do a review even if I had, but I was nervous about the lathe's
longevity. When I buy a computer or stereo receiver I understand that
they have a limited useful life and will eventually get thrown away
and replaced. I don't buy large shop tools with that same attitude.
I want to be able to replace the motor in 20 years. I'm assuming the
motor in this lathe isn't serviceable by readily available, generic
motor parts. Also, the electronics will eventually die. What are the
odds that I'll be able to get a replacement circuit board in 20 years?
My biggest gripe, however, was the R2D2-like beeping the damned thing
made. :-)
--
Scott Post sep...@insightbb.com http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/
Pamela Reilly
I always look forward to reading your reviews simply because they are so
objective and tremendously full of information useful to a user, complete
with technical analysis. You offer your opinions without being patronizing,
and they are not highly charged with emotion. They are also certainly not
directed at anyone other than the manufacturer/designer. It's reviews like
yours that are truly helpful to consumers. I believe that Ian has a lot he
could learn from you.
Pam
Howard Pixley
Thanks,Rick
Lyn J. Mangiameli
Great and often very informative comments. They really helped me consider some
additional things about the lathe and make me more frustrated than ever with
Teknatools approach to the purchasers of it. What is, at least for me, so
surprising about this is that Teknatool has done so well in the past providing
(though not always making easily accessible) fact sheets and service procedure
reports on its chucks and the Nova 3 K.
Speaking of fan maintainance, IIRC, there is a filter inside the headstock
housing which they suggest be cleaned every six months. I suspect it would
behove DVR buyers to make their first several checks well before six months
goes by, just to know how their own usage patterns affect build up on the
filter.
Again, great and helpful analysis
Lyn
Bruce
his skills in pretty high esteem.
I don't know just a whole lot about anything, but the one thing I do know is
there's always someone better and wiser.
"Howard Pixley" <HRPi...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20681-3CB...@storefull-2138.public.lawson.webtv.net...
JRQuesada
nice Blue Machine from David E.
JoeQ
Charles Bjorgen
Woodcraft store. Although the lathe on display had not been set up
correctly--a large spindle lock screw had not been installed which
allowed play in the motor/headstock package--first impressions were that
it seemed to be a fairly solid machine. No turning was done but as the
motor speed was ramped up through to 3500 rpm, vibrations set in at
around 2100 rpm and we both thought the noise level was excessive at the
higher revs. The power switch on the left side of the motor is plastic
and seems destined to break. However the tailstock is a really great
improvement over the old design though. It's very solid.
I first asked about the group's thoughts on this lathe several months
ago and received feedback from several on the group. I wanted this lathe
to be the one because its specs fit in very nicely with my shop space
and the special features such as rotating headstock and 16-inch swing
are very attractive to me. However, I'm concerned about the motor and I
don't voice this concern with any degree of expertise about motors. It's
just a feeling. So, right now I'm back to looking at the new Oneway 1224
or the Vicmarc VL200. I'm sure Steve will have more to add to the
discussion and will defintely encourage the importation of more Vicmarcs
to Minnesota.
Mike Paulson
deep breath and relax just a little. Thanks for your insights. I agree
that Ian certainly sounds like a company man even if not a normal
employee. I STRONGLY (not shouting, just emphasis) suspect he wrote that
post at Teknatool's request.
I'll add one thought. On the 250 rpm limit, truing out of balance blanks
is not the only reason for slow speed. I spend a lot of time at very slow
speeds applying finishes, doing slow speed sanding, and doing surface
decoration at ultra slow speeds with a Dremel, dye brush, stipplers, etc
(tap, tap, tap, tap). The slow ramp up time would drive me CRAZY (okay,
this time I'm shouting) when I apply certain finishes at slow speed and
then switch to high speed to friction heat the surface. Is that two
thoughts? Anyway, I'm done.
peace to all,
-mike paulson, fort collins, co
Steve Tiedman
Like Chuck mentioned, we had some concerns about the lathe we saw today.
I think we spent about 30 minutes playing around with the powered-up floor
model (no wood cutting was done), and here are some observations that go
along with what Chuck wrote:
* There was a floor model Nova 3K next to the DVR, so when I robbed the 3K
of the headstock locking pin (bolt) and installed it on the DVR, the DVR
headstock locked right down nice and solid. This lathe just made it to the
showroom floor probably less than 24 hours ago, so I'd think the original
pin was still in the box. There were no centers to be had with the display
model, so we were not able to check center alignment of head and tailstock
spindles.
* The headstock spindle nose protrusion that contains the inboard bearing is
certainly much beefier than on the 3K. This 3K design is the same on the
new Delta, and I've always had a bit of a concern with this design and to
what (in my eye) seems to be a lack of support for the bearings and
spindle. But I'm no engineer, so I don't know if my concerns are warranted
or not. Like Chuck said, it's just one of those feelings, but my eye liked
the DVR nose (inboard bearing support) much better.
* The tailstock is much beefier. Similar general size of the original, just
more iron in its construction. Nothing like compared to my Vic VL300 or a
Oneway, but probably a similar heft to a Jet or Delta lathe. Actually, it
would be very much like the heft of a 16" swing Woodfast. I'm okay with
this tailstock, but a self-ejecting feature would have been nice.
* I did not care for the layout of the banjo cam lock handle and toolrest
tightening handle as to how they orient them together. The cam lock handle
is a rather narrow cross section (too narrow in my mind, will it bend at the
threading transition with time?) hex-shaped threaded rod that screws into
the end of the locking camshaft (and I found it partly unthreaded when I
started playing with it). The handle for the toolrest itself is short
(which was okay, it cinched down just fine) with rather large round end
caps. The two handles just seemed to interfere with each other too much.
The banjo itself has the beef, but things still either had a bit too much
cosmoline on them or the nut under the banjo needed to be tightened another
1/16 of a turn or so, but you really had to put a lot of pressure on the cam
lock handle to get the banjo secure on the bed.
* The lathe bed and the underside of the tailstock, where they ride on each
other, still had fairly distinct milling marks from final grinding of the
surfaces. These milling marks tended to ride across each other in a manner
that made for quite a loud noise when sliding the tailstock. With time
these should wear away on each other and quiet down.
* The flimsy little plastic power switch on the outboard side of the
headstock- yeah, when will it break off? Hope a standard toggle switch from
Radio Shack is able to replace it.
* This is the first time I've ever played with a pivoting headstock lathe,
and I can see the appeal to it.
* I really questioned the touch-pad style buttons on the control panel.
I've experienced these buttons on many different things before- copy
machines, radio tuners, microwave ovens, etc. Seems like with time they
wear and become less sensitive to touch. And with how often they will be
used when the lathe is in operation, I can't help but think about how one
would be stuck with a bad control pad one year or 5 years after the 5-year
warrantee has expired. (Actually, I'm not sure if the control panel has the
same 5-year warrantee as the lathe itself. Check before buying.)
* 1 minute, 45 seconds, 250 rpm to 3500 rpm. You be the judge. I don't
often turn faster than 2000 rpm, but even still, that would be about 50
seconds from 250 to 1625, the half-way point of the speed range. I could
easily change the speed on my Jet mini 5 times in 50 seconds. Not that this
long time period is a mechanical problem with the lathe, but if trying to
make a large speed range change, unless you are a patient sole, you may
become annoyed by these long timeframes.
* Yes, an rpm rate lower than 250 would prove beneficial. I think nearly
everyone interested in this lathe would/could live with 100 rpm. And if
they told the user how to use those "off limits" control buttons, I'd bet
100 rpm can be done.
* The noise Chuck mentioned- at right about 2100 rpm, there were some
harmonics set up in the motor case/headstock that really made for an
unpleasant whining noise; there would be no way for me to stand this for
more than a few seconds. Chuck and I both heard it and thought that was no
good. And our hearing is at least one full generation apart from each
other! (Just teasing a bit, Chuck.) But I moved the rpm's up and down from
there less than 100 rpm's and the whining noise settled out. To a lesser
extent I heard a similar noise at around 1100 rpm, but that was not as
uncomfortable on the ears. I don't know if this is common for this model
Nova or if it was unique to just this particular machine. In general, the
higher the rpm through the entire range, the more noise the motor made
anyway, just as any motor would. But like Chuck mentioned, the higher the
rpm, the less comfortable the noise was. If I were doing high rpm spindle
work on this lathe, I'd put a pair of ear plugs in my ears, just for added
comfort. I've been with louder lathes, and quieter lathes. I will give the
motor credit, though, there really was no discernible vibration felt by
touch throughout the speed range when I had my hand on top the headstock,
even at the 2100 rpm speed with the harmonics.
* In closing, I share Chuck's unscientific feeling about the motor, and the
electronic control panel. I cannot help but wonder what I'd have to do when
something fails after the warrantee expires. Other than paying for
Woodcraft to somehow have it fixed (Do they send it to New Zealand? I
should have asked when we were at the store.), I would not be able to have
the motor serviced anywhere local, or obtain a new control panel (if they
are still made 6, or 10, or 20 years from now) when it inevitably fails. I
applaud Teknatool for bringing an entirely new concept forward to the
market, but there are too many little things, and a few rather big things,
that would prevent me from putting out the money for this machine. This may
be a brash thing to ask, but does this lathe become a disposable commodity?
Should I only buy it if I plan to replace it at the end of its warrantee, or
put another way, to only count on it giving me service for the warrantee
life? At $1700 (not including any tax or shipping) that would be $340 per
year for 5 years, about $28 per month to own it. I guess after the 5 years
are up, anything more it offers me in its lifespan is frosting on the cake.
Sorry, but if I were in the market for a new lathe, I can't say that I'd be
looking here. I'm simply not comfortable with it. Even if motor and
controller technology change drastically over the next 50 years (when I'll
be 83 years young), I know I'll still be able to put a fresh motor system in
my trusty 50-year old Vicmarc!
Happy Turning!
Steve.
--
Steve Tiedman
s...@mninter.net
Minnesota, USA
------------------
Lyn J. Mangiameli
the lathe's performance (that I think we can all discuss rationally, yet
perhaps differ on) but for his attitude toward fellow turners--and of course
for the impression it leaves that Teknatool was unwilling to come forward
forthrightly, but instead put him up to it.
Of course the joke is, as you personally know, I have very strongly
recommended to many individuals that they seriously consider the DVR as their
next lathe. What is so sad, is that the lathe has so many positive features
(many inherited from the Nova 3000) but presently, as a total package, is
marred by what for a lot of us are fatal flaws: the inadequate minimum speed,
the lack of movable or separate remote controls, and the reassurance we will
be able to repair and/or upgrade this thing 6 or 10 or 15 years down the
road.
Obviously the lathe will turn at near zero rpm, but equally obviously there
is some problem with its use in the lowest speed ranges. I emailed Roger
Latimer and asked him directly what was the real reason why the lathe is
limited to a 250 rpm minimum speed. He responded to me on another unrelated
issue, but provided no comment what so ever to the speed issue. I can't help
but think there would be a lot more support for Teknatool and the DVR, if
they would step forward and provide the reason for the limitation, say they
believe they will be able to overcome it, and that hopefully they will be
able to offer a free upgrade in X number of months that will resolve it. I
think a lot of people would respond quite positively to such a statement, and
likely purchase the lathe now and live with the speed limitation knowing it
was only temporary. As it is now, no one knows if it will ever be resolved,
and as far as I'm concerned, this alone takes the lathe out of serious
contention.
Your point about the other reasons for desiring near zero rpm speeds,
resonates with my feelings too. Like you, I use such slow speeds for sanding
with a powered sander and applying finishes. Anyone who presently has a VS
lathe and who uses friction polishes knows exactly what you mean by how
unsuited the DVR is for such applications.
The second fatal flaw could be so easily overcome that it just amazes me that
they have not taken outside requests seriously and dealt with it. Since last
September, I both through and with Woodcraft have told Teknatool that remote
operating controls were essential. We both made it clear that the issue was
primarily one of safety, but also was of other practical importance for those
who would use the lathe for deep hollowing. Given that the introduction of
the lathe has not taken place until over six month's later, I seems near an
act of arrogance for Teknatool to have ignored an identified problem with the
DVR control system. I still think this issue can be quickly and
satisfactorily dealt with by Teknatool, so is it appears to be just a matter
of pride that they are unable to come forward and say they underestimated the
need and demand for movable controls, and will be offering a free update
within four to six months?
The final fatal flaw relates to the long term value of a lathe with a
proprietary motor system. It, I fear, may be the only flaw Teknatool cannot
solve. Though unlikely, if Teknatool goes out of business next year, one will
be left with a very expensive souvenir of their passing. What if the motor
technology or the ability to source the necessary parts goes bust, again will
DVR owners be stuck with a large mass of unusable cast iron? At present, most
lathes are a substantial purchase for the majority of woodturners. Even if
they believe they might upgrade to another lathe sometime in the future, they
would like to for their present lathe to have good resale value (as indeed,
Nova 3Ks have had). Knowing that most lathes one might buy can be maintained
or upgraded with an off-the-shelf motor is a major plus. There are probably a
fair number of turners who have upgraded their lathes from single speed
motors to VS of the AC or DC variety. The DVR, of course, holds no such
promise for upgradability as technology advances. Since it doesn't, Teknatool
needs to deal with this head on and explain to folks why they believe this is
not as much of a problem as it appears to be for many of us. As was earlier
alluded to, I don't want to see DVR owners become the first to own a
"throw-a-way" lathe.
And just one last issue, not a fatal flaw, but a matter that is seriously
bothersome to many of us. This is the paternalistic attitude that Teknatool
appears to have assumed with respect to its customers. The first example of
this appears on their website where they say, "the information provided is
designed to convey information in a simple non-technical way-- the terms,
performance characteristic and explanation may not be strictly technically
accurate." So are we to take it that they believe we are too stupid and
uneducable to received technically accurate information? This patronizing
attitude doesn't set well with me, and from many of the posts on this
newsgroup, it doesn't set well with many others. But perhaps a more
egregious example of paternalism is to sell a turner a lathe, but then not
provide the information for that owner to fully control the settings of its
controls. Now many a VS controller manufacturer warns us that we can screw
things up if we get too involved changing settings, but they don't prevent us
from doing so. But Teknatool has apparently precluded this, or at a minimum
has withheld the information required to knowledgeably assume that control. I
suggest to them that if they are really so concerned with user error, they
can provide a return to default setting, or much like is done with modern
film and digital cameras, offer an "automatic" mode (using all their chosen
defaults and compromises) and a "manual" mode. It would be fine with me if
they added a disclaimer that they would not be responsible for damage that
resulted from incorrect settings in the "manual" mode.
So if anyone at Teknatool is listening. The above would be my suggested road
map for taking a potentially great but currently fatally flawed lathe and
making it into a truly great lathe that might well serve for a long time to
come as the flagship lathe in the under $2200 price range.
Lyn
Lyn J. Mangiameli
Great, thorough, thoughtful comments from someone who knows how to do this.
Some minor (really) comments interspersed between snipped text.
Steve Tiedman wrote:
> Chuck, Lyn, et el,
>
> Like Chuck mentioned, we had some concerns about the lathe we saw today.
>
> * There was a floor model Nova 3K next to the DVR, so when I robbed the 3K
> of the headstock locking pin (bolt) and installed it on the DVR, the DVR
> headstock locked right down nice and solid. This lathe just made it to the
> showroom floor probably less than 24 hours ago, so I'd think the original
> pin was still in the box. There were no centers to be had with the display
> model, so we were not able to check center alignment of head and tailstock
> spindles.
Yes, that bolt that locks the headstock pivot bolt is essential to lock the
headstock in place. Alignment is usually not much of a problem, but the new
headstock appears to make alignment more difficult (other than breaking those
old alignment bolts loose) than it was on the old headstock, because
(reportedly) the alignment bolt are now on the bottom of the tailstock. This
makes for a real problem if one has a solid surface bench running under the
bed.
> * The headstock spindle nose protrusion that contains the inboard bearing is
> certainly much beefier than on the 3K. This 3K design is the same on the
> new Delta, and I've always had a bit of a concern with this design and to
> what (in my eye) seems to be a lack of support for the bearings and
> spindle. But I'm no engineer, so I don't know if my concerns are warranted
> or not. Like Chuck said, it's just one of those feelings, but my eye liked
> the DVR nose (inboard bearing support) much better.
There is also a new third bearing at the back of the motor. The combination of
the three bearings really should provide a pretty good system on the DVR.
> * The tailstock is much beefier. Similar general size of the original, just
> more iron in its construction. Nothing like compared to my Vic VL300 or a
> Oneway, but probably a similar heft to a Jet or Delta lathe. Actually, it
> would be very much like the heft of a 16" swing Woodfast. I'm okay with
> this tailstock, but a self-ejecting feature would have been nice.
Probably the most balanced and objective view of this tailstock I've read. It
is definitely a big improvement over the old one.
> * I did not care for the layout of the banjo cam lock handle and toolrest
> tightening handle as to how they orient them together. The cam lock handle
> is a rather narrow cross section (too narrow in my mind, will it bend at the
> threading transition with time?) hex-shaped threaded rod that screws into
> the end of the locking camshaft (and I found it partly unthreaded when I
> started playing with it). The handle for the toolrest itself is short
> (which was okay, it cinched down just fine) with rather large round end
> caps. The two handles just seemed to interfere with each other too much.
> The banjo itself has the beef, but things still either had a bit too much
> cosmoline on them or the nut under the banjo needed to be tightened another
> 1/16 of a turn or so, but you really had to put a lot of pressure on the cam
> lock handle to get the banjo secure on the bed.
These are problems with the Nova 3K as well. They can be resolved, but take a
little effort or modification on the owner's part.
> * This is the first time I've ever played with a pivoting headstock lathe,
> and I can see the appeal to it.
It really does, particularly if you do hollowing. Personally, I hope to never
be without a pivoting headstock lathe.
> * I really questioned the touch-pad style buttons on the control panel.
> I've experienced these buttons on many different things before- copy
> machines, radio tuners, microwave ovens, etc. Seems like with time they
> wear and become less sensitive to touch. And with how often they will be
> used when the lathe is in operation, I can't help but think about how one
> would be stuck with a bad control pad one year or 5 years after the 5-year
> warrantee has expired. (Actually, I'm not sure if the control panel has the
> same 5-year warrantee as the lathe itself. Check before buying.)
No it doesn't have the same warranty; according to manual IIRC it only has a 1
year warranty. To me, this is gross stupidity on Teknatool's part. People are
apt to wonder if it will hold up, and then Teknatool goes and gives them every
reason to believe that it won't. And, as you point out, just what will one due
of Teknatool goes out of business or decides to stop providing parts for this
lathe. Virtually every other lathe on the market can be retrofitted with
off-the-shelf controls, but not the DVR.
> * 1 minute, 45 seconds, 250 rpm to 3500 rpm. You be the judge. I don't
> often turn faster than 2000 rpm, but even still, that would be about 50
> seconds from 250 to 1625, the half-way point of the speed range. I could
> easily change the speed on my Jet mini 5 times in 50 seconds. Not that this
> long time period is a mechanical problem with the lathe, but if trying to
> make a large speed range change, unless you are a patient sole, you may
> become annoyed by these long timeframes.
This should be user controlled with regards to ramp speed, but is it. Maybe
Molly will come out with a special edition of her T-shirt just for the DVR.
"I'll still be waiting to turn in my grave."
>
> * Yes, an rpm rate lower than 250 would prove beneficial. I think nearly
> everyone interested in this lathe would/could live with 100 rpm. And if
> they told the user how to use those "off limits" control buttons, I'd bet
> 100 rpm can be done.
Seems right, doesn't it. But I want 5 rpm or less, for putting on finishes,
sanding, etc.
> * The noise Chuck mentioned- at right about 2100 rpm, there were some
> harmonics set up in the motor case/headstock that really made for an
> unpleasant whining noise; there would be no way for me to stand this for
> more than a few seconds. Chuck and I both heard it and thought that was no
> good. And our hearing is at least one full generation apart from each
> other! (Just teasing a bit, Chuck.) But I moved the rpm's up and down from
> there less than 100 rpm's and the whining noise settled out. To a lesser
> extent I heard a similar noise at around 1100 rpm, but that was not as
> uncomfortable on the ears. I don't know if this is common for this model
> Nova or if it was unique to just this particular machine. In general, the
> higher the rpm through the entire range, the more noise the motor made
> anyway, just as any motor would. But like Chuck mentioned, the higher the
> rpm, the less comfortable the noise was. If I were doing high rpm spindle
> work on this lathe, I'd put a pair of ear plugs in my ears, just for added
> comfort. I've been with louder lathes, and quieter lathes. I will give the
> motor credit, though, there really was no discernible vibration felt by
> touch throughout the speed range when I had my hand on top the headstock,
> even at the 2100 rpm speed with the harmonics.
Great information.
> * In closing, I share Chuck's unscientific feeling about the motor, and the
> electronic control panel. I cannot help but wonder what I'd have to do when
> something fails after the warrantee expires. Other than paying for
> Woodcraft to somehow have it fixed (Do they send it to New Zealand? I
> should have asked when we were at the store.), I would not be able to have
> the motor serviced anywhere local, or obtain a new control panel (if they
> are still made 6, or 10, or 20 years from now) when it inevitably fails. I
> applaud Teknatool for bringing an entirely new concept forward to the
> market, but there are too many little things, and a few rather big things,
> that would prevent me from putting out the money for this machine. This may
> be a brash thing to ask, but does this lathe become a disposable commodity?
> Should I only buy it if I plan to replace it at the end of its warrantee, or
> put another way, to only count on it giving me service for the warrantee
> life? At $1700 (not including any tax or shipping) that would be $340 per
> year for 5 years, about $28 per month to own it. I guess after the 5 years
> are up, anything more it offers me in its lifespan is frosting on the cake.
I think this is the most difficult of all issues for Teknatool to overcome, and
one of the most important. Unfortuantely, they seem to have made no attempt to
do so.
>
> Sorry, but if I were in the market for a new lathe, I can't say that I'd be
> looking here. I'm simply not comfortable with it. Even if motor and
> controller technology change drastically over the next 50 years (when I'll
> be 83 years young), I know I'll still be able to put a fresh motor system in
> my trusty 50-year old Vicmarc!
First rate, and IMO quite objective critique. If Teknatool doesn't want to
listen to me, they should at least be listening to you.
Bob Pritchard
shop but after reading of the DVR's low speed of 250 rpm I wouldn't even
consider
getting one.
I often sand under 250rpm and apply finishes below 10rpm. I prefer lacquer
on a lot of my turnings and once applied let the lathe run for 10 minutes at
4or5 rpm until the finish is set up well. This helps eliminate runs and sags.
So for me 250rpm is just plain too fast.
Bob, Naugatuck Ct.
http://www.outofcontrol-woodturning.com
Steve Tiedman
Well, thank you.
I must credit Chuck Bjorgen, though. He wanted to view this lathe in the worst
way, and me being the ever faithful and helpful guy I am, said, "Well, okay, if I
must go to Woodcraft on a Saturday morning, I'll go." I just hate it when he
twists my arm like that. Wait, I twisted my arm running out the door to get going
to Woodcraft!
Steve.
--
Steve Tiedman
s...@mninter.net
Minnesota, USA
------------------
Scott Post
Lyn J. Mangiameli <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Steve Tiedman wrote:
>
>
>> * 1 minute, 45 seconds, 250 rpm to 3500 rpm. You be the judge. I don't
>> often turn faster than 2000 rpm, but even still, that would be about 50
>> seconds from 250 to 1625, the half-way point of the speed range.
>
>Molly will come out with a special edition of her T-shirt just for the DVR.
>"I'll still be waiting to turn in my grave."
>
I was pretty busy learning turning technique at Ernie Conover's last weekend
and didn't pay a whole lot of attention to his DVR, but I distinctly
remember him changing the ramp speed at one point. Without having timed
it, I'd say it took less about 5 seconds to ramp up to 1500 RPM.
Turning the lathe on and off and changing speeds did take longer than I'd
like. I prefer flipping a switch or turning a knob over doing what amounts
to programming a VCR. It'd be a step up for people used to changing speeds
by moving belts on a pulley, but a real step backwards for those with a
variable speed DC motor.
Chuck Engstrom
Hi Lyn & Steve -- My reading of the manual is that Ramp Speed is the
ONLY thing users can control, variable from 1 to 120 sec. See page 17.
I can't cut and paste from the PDF to put it here.
The 1:45 time Steve reports strikes me as much, much longer than what
I saw in Baltimore, though I didn't actually time it from 250 to 3500.
My observation was about 100 rpm increase per second, which would
bring it down to about 30 - 35 seconds to go from 250 to 3500.
Steve, did you take any timings of ramp time on the one you saw? If
they were very slow it would make me wonder if a change in ramp time
affects speed change timing as well.
Many interesting comments throughout this thread. Certainly someone
should now be able to spec out a perfect lathe.
Best --
Chuck Engstrom
Chestertown MD
Steve Tiedman
See my brief text mixed in below...
Steve.
--
Steve Tiedman
s...@mninter.net
Minnesota, USA
------------------
Chuck Engstrom wrote:
> Hi Lyn & Steve -- My reading of the manual is that Ramp Speed is the
> ONLY thing users can control, variable from 1 to 120 sec. See page 17.
> I can't cut and paste from the PDF to put it here.
>
> The 1:45 time Steve reports strikes me as much, much longer than what
> I saw in Baltimore, though I didn't actually time it from 250 to 3500.
> My observation was about 100 rpm increase per second, which would
> bring it down to about 30 - 35 seconds to go from 250 to 3500.
> Steve, did you take any timings of ramp time on the one you saw? If
> they were very slow it would make me wonder if a change in ramp time
> affects speed change timing as well.
Yup, looked at my watch, and held down the button on the control panel. No wood
mounted to the lathe, stock settings as they came from the factory. One end to the
other, 1:45.
Lyn J. Mangiameli
Thanks for prompting me to review the manual again. I printed and read it when it
first came out, but obviously some things are fading. Actually page 17 is very
interesting and I'm happy you brought me back to it. As I read the manual, ramp
speed is the only thing Teknatool would like you to control, but other changes are
quite possible. Within section "d" on that page is the statement "If you
accidentally push mode another screen will show, keep pushing mode until the
torque ramp screen appears. If you use the down keys while the screen is in
another mode you will override the particular parameter setting, while this will
not effect the motor--performance conditions could be changed....."
Any brave souls on their way to a Woodcraft today or tomorrow who want to read
page 17 of the DVR manual (it's on the Teknatool web site) and see if you can get
a screen to show up for minimum rpm setting, and/or give us a list of the mode
screen names that come up? Jerry, care to investigate on yours and report back?
Perhaps if Ian was more curious he could have provided this information. Or, of
course, Teknatool could just make this information available on their web site or
in what needs to be a much revised DVR Manual (the current slapped together and
incomplete rework of the old Nova 3000 manual should be an embarrassment to them).
Lyn
Chuck Engstrom
Hi Steve -- I'm sure you realize my intention is not to question your
reliability but to wonder what else could explain the difference
between our observations. I wasn't using a watch but I think my
estimate of 100 rpm change per second while holding down the UP button
was accurate enough not to account for the roughly 300% difference.
Maybe the one I saw had been fiddled around with and no longer had
factory defaults.
Perhaps it's more accurate to say I am wondering if the user
adjustable ramp time, which I take to mean the time from 0 rpm to
designated speed after pushing ON, also affects the rate of change of
speed once you're already running, as I assume you are discussing in
your figure for 250 to 3500.
The manual says (without explanation, unfortuately) that "It is always
recommended to use torque ramp," and this leads me to wonder what
operational difference one would see if changed to speed ramp.
At the head of their "Special and Parameters Settings" section they
say: "Warning: These should only be changed following a thorough
understanding of the drive program and motor operation. Which is
beyond the scope of this manual." Maybe their hidden agenda is to
eventually run "Thorough Understanding" weekend workshops with a
tie-in to NZ tourism.
I guess much of this will remain a mystery until Teknatool decides to
open up about some of these issues, or someone hacks into the
controller. They seems as reluctant as politicians to say anything
meaningful.
I do wonder if DVR will eventually become a more widespread
technology. What will we see 20 years from now in electric vehicles?
Best --
Chuck Engstrom
Chestertown MD
On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:25:09 -0500, Steve Tiedman <s...@mninter.net>
wrote:
Chuck Engstrom
Hi Lyn -- I think the ultimate guerilla learning on this is going to
amount to hacking either by direct observations as you suggest or
getting inside and extracting the program, or whatever hackers do. See
also my post responding to Steve in the prior DVR thread -- sign up
now for your "Thorough Understanding" weekend workshop.
Every Woodcraft in the country with a newsgroup reader is now on Red
Alert for furtive notetakers around their DVR. Does r.c.w permit
PGP-encoded traffic?
Best --
Chuck Engstrom
Chestertown MD
On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:50:57 GMT, "Lyn J. Mangiameli"
Lyn J. Mangiameli
Chuck Engstrom wrote:
> At the head of their "Special and Parameters Settings" section they
> say: "Warning: These should only be changed following a thorough
> understanding of the drive program and motor operation. Which is
> beyond the scope of this manual." Maybe their hidden agenda is to
> eventually run "Thorough Understanding" weekend workshops with a
> tie-in to NZ tourism.
Hmmmm, do you think we've already seen a glimpse of the NZ turner would
be conducting them.
>
> I guess much of this will remain a mystery until Teknatool decides to
> open up about some of these issues, or someone hacks into the
> controller. They seems as reluctant as politicians to say anything
> meaningful.
A good analogy
>
>
> I do wonder if DVR will eventually become a more widespread
> technology. What will we see 20 years from now in electric vehicles?
Isn't it peculiar, assuming it's true, that such "revolutoinary"
technology would be first seen in something as peripheral to commerce and
industry as a mid priced lathe.
BTW, using their figures, assuming a linear function, and trusting my
math (the latter not to be taken for granted), if 24000 shaft posiition
measurements per minute are made at 2000 rpm, then that would be 12000 at
1000rpm, 120 at 100rpm and only 12 at 10 rpm. 12 at ten rpm and 1.2 at
one rpm. It this sufficient to maintain speed tracking at low speeds?
Lyn
Scott Post
>
>>
>> I do wonder if DVR will eventually become a more widespread
>> technology. What will we see 20 years from now in electric vehicles?
>
>Isn't it peculiar, assuming it's true, that such "revolutoinary"
>technology would be first seen in something as peripheral to commerce and
>industry as a mid priced lathe.
>
The story I heard was that one of the founders of Teknatool was at a
technical conference and, by chance, sat next to an out of work Russian
software engineer who'd been working on DVR software. Apparently he saw the
application of this technology to lathes and hired the guy.
This is a third (or fourth) hand story so take if for what it's worth,
but it would explain why this "revolutionary" technology would first
show up in such an odd place.
Don R Sayler
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CB9B604...@earthlink.net...
>
>> snip<<
Chuck Engstrom
<kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> I do wonder if DVR will eventually become a more widespread
>> technology. What will we see 20 years from now in electric vehicles?
>
>Isn't it peculiar, assuming it's true, that such "revolutoinary"
>technology would be first seen in something as peripheral to commerce and
>industry as a mid priced lathe.
>
I wonder if this technology is already there but we just aren't aware
of it in applications where its advantages and characteristics are not
of golly-gee-whiz interest to prospective consumers. William Flowers
posted some links on 4/8 and they show a couple of applications we may
not have noticed. Here are the links with a couple of relevant quotes
from the actual sites
---------
more on variable reluctance motors:
http://www.control.utoronto.ca/people/profs/bortoff/vrm.html provides
a short overview (dated 1995):
"The Variable Reluctance Motor (VRM) is a type of motor with
significant industrial relevance. Although it is usually used as a
"stepper-motor," in products such as computer printers, it can be made
to behave like a servomotor if properly controlled. In this mode, it
has a number of advantages over the typical brushed servomotor,
including a larger torque-to-mass ratio, better thermal
characteristics (the windings are in the stator, on the outside of the
motor), brushless operation, and a less expensive construction.
However, it is challenging to control the VRM in this manner because
it is highly nonlinear, and it requires electronic commutation."
http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/step/typesf/1anim.html provides a nice
animated view of how to make it work.
http://www.ebike.net/Motorbike/products/lectra/VR24.html is a good
discussion of the basic technology.
"The principle for the Variable Reluctance (VR) motor has been known
for more than a century. But the rapid developments within power and
control electronics during recent decades have made the technology
especially interesting today."
http://www.super-tech.com/root/motors/default_main.asp provides a nice
overview of steppers and offers a bunch of schematics for controllers
so, to answer my own question, it's a stepper, just like the one that
drives the platten on your printer. Zero speed is perfectly feasible.
---------
The first and third are the most informative, I think.
>BTW, using their figures, assuming a linear function, and trusting my
>math (the latter not to be taken for granted), if 24000 shaft posiition
>measurements per minute are made at 2000 rpm, then that would be 12000 at
>1000rpm, 120 at 100rpm and only 12 at 10 rpm. 12 at ten rpm and 1.2 at
>one rpm. It this sufficient to maintain speed tracking at low speeds?
Maybe that's the problem. See "What are the difficulties?..." on the
ebike site linked above.
I did a search on "variable reluctance" and "motor" and found one link
whose author claimed to get >100% efficiency -- it was alleged to be
creating more power than it used. But I can't seem to find it again.
Best --
Chuck Engstrom
Chestertown MD
>
>Lyn
Chuck Engstrom
Another informative link from Meechanical Engineering magazine on
variable reluctance:
http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/february98/features/risevsr/risevsr.html
"Emerson Electric Co. in Danville, Va., is also using VSR motors.
Although the company is planning on incorporating them into many of
its appliances and tools, its biggest success so far has been with one
of Emerson's new washing-machine models. In these washers, the VSR
motors eliminate all the mechanical gearing for the spin cycle, so no
taps are needed to get multispeed performance, resulting in a
significant cost saving. Emerson, which uses an estimated 2,000 motors
per day for this application, plans on introducing its first
industrial VSR motor this year." Copyright 1998 ASME
Chuck
Steve Tiedman
Mixed in below...
Chuck Engstrom wrote:
> Hi Steve -- I'm sure you realize my intention is not to question your
> reliability but to wonder what else could explain the difference
> between our observations. I wasn't using a watch but I think my
> estimate of 100 rpm change per second while holding down the UP button
> was accurate enough not to account for the roughly 300% difference.
> Maybe the one I saw had been fiddled around with and no longer had
> factory defaults.
Oh, no, I know you're not questioning me. This was the first time I've
put a hand on the machine and I just wanted to see how long it would take.
You know, as I'm sitting here remembering the scenario, I did this timing
test while starting at top speed, 3500, and going down to 250. I pressed
the down speed arrow and as soon as the spindle started turning I started
watching my watch. Maybe there's something different in each direction?
Don't know why there would be.
> Perhaps it's more accurate to say I am wondering if the user
> adjustable ramp time, which I take to mean the time from 0 rpm to
> designated speed after pushing ON, also affects the rate of change of
> speed once you're already running, as I assume you are discussing in
> your figure for 250 to 3500.
I don't know. When going from a stopped position to whatever the speed
setting was sitting at, be it 250, 1500, or more, hitting start brought it
right up to that speed within a very brief time, a couple seconds maybe.
> The manual says (without explanation, unfortuately) that "It is always
> recommended to use torque ramp," and this leads me to wonder what
> operational difference one would see if changed to speed ramp.
>
> At the head of their "Special and Parameters Settings" section they
> say: "Warning: These should only be changed following a thorough
> understanding of the drive program and motor operation. Which is
> beyond the scope of this manual." Maybe their hidden agenda is to
> eventually run "Thorough Understanding" weekend workshops with a
> tie-in to NZ tourism.
Although I'd like to visit NZ, being how my lathe (Vicky) is from OZ, I'd
better go visit the Vicmarc factory first.
> I guess much of this will remain a mystery until Teknatool decides to
> open up about some of these issues, or someone hacks into the
> controller. They seems as reluctant as politicians to say anything
> meaningful.
>
> I do wonder if DVR will eventually become a more widespread
> technology. What will we see 20 years from now in electric vehicles?
>
> Best --
>
> Chuck Engstrom
> Chestertown MD
>
> On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:25:09 -0500, Steve Tiedman <s...@mninter.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi Chuck,
> >
> >See my brief text mixed in below...
> >
> >Steve.
--
cliff
If you do NOT LIKE what the DNR has to offer then DON'T by it. Don't do
what most folks do -- we get married then try to change the bad half!
If you do LIKE what the DNR has to offer and you CANNOT find anything better
for the price then BUY it.
As for Ian discussion of his DNR ,he said "I am not employed by Teknatool
but do demos" which indicates or implies his "bias". Guess that makes him
just like all of us the only difference -- he said it up front.
Hey give him a break. Where I come from you OK until shown to be other
wise. To some of you it seems like -- his terrible deed is that he likes
the DNR and said why. He doesn't hate it for what it's not.
CRL
Lyn J. Mangiameli
flunked out my first graduate statistics class. Why, he wouldn't let us use
calculators (let alone computers) and I always come up with these bizarrre
arithmetic mistakes.
Lyn
Lyn J. Mangiameli
if we all had known and followed your advice (it was advice wasn't it?).
Lyn
looking forward to your fourth post to this group.
jb
"Chuck Engstrom" <engs...@friend.ly.net> wrote in message
news:8ebjbugogddapihno...@4ax.com...
James Barley
If I plan on responding to a post,
Is one supposed to research the archives, and let the number of times a
person has previously posted temper their response.
Sort of like having tenure, if you've posted a lot in the past, not
necessarily on topic, or sensibly, we'll take you seriously, and if you're a
relative newcomer then , "keep your opinions to yourself
--
James Barley.
http://members.shaw.ca/jamesbarley
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CBA0B25...@earthlink.net...
Bill & Emmy
3000 has received here in the news group.
I have learned a lot from reading the post here and going to the Technatool
Wep Page. Guess still not sure understand everything I should about DVR
technology.
Many of the questions and concerns rasied here should be addressed by
Technatool and guess will be answered eventually.
I especially appreciate those post from Jerry Mullikins. He took the plunge
and bought one of these lathes and has tried to educate us from a turner's
point of view. I wish him the best of luck and happiness with his new lathe.
Del Morissette
trying out my new monster Termite from Herm) I also trundled on down to my
local Woodcraft to check out the DVR. They wouldn't let me plug it in, so
couldn't see if I could find what's on the setup menu. I'd agree with what
Steve has noted and would add a few other observations.
1. The banjo setup is exactly as he described and it is identical (no
change) from my year plus old 3K except the handle is a hex shape which
should allow it to be better tightened into it's socket with a wrench
eliminating the sometimes frustrating experience I had with mine coming
loose and I don't notice it until it fell out (somehow loctite didn't occur
to me until it had happend about three times). This also means no
improvement in the placement of the banjo lever related to the tool post
lever. Lever on the tailstock is similar--hex shape full length instead of
the round with knurled handle on the end of my 3K.
2. I really wonder how Teknatool is measuring the HP on this motor since
the wiring to it is 18/3 cord. Doesn't seem to me that 18 gauge wire will
carry enough current at 115 volts required by the stated horsepower even at
100% efficiency.
3. There is an indexing knob on the top of the headstock with a warning
label that says you must not use the indexing lock as a spindle lock; you
must use the "LH threaded chuck removal nut in the outboard threads"
(probably not an exact quote, but very close and accurate as to
information). I looked at this "chuck removal nut" and it is really a LH
threaded solid (no through bore) bolt with a large (~1 1/4"+) hex head that
threads into the outboard side of the headstock. I presume one would then
put a wrench on it to "lock" the spindle while doing whatever on the inboard
side. Opinion here, but I think a reasonable one: That doesn't qualify as
a spindle lock. It would mean having to hold a wrench on that side while
trying to use whatever to take off or seat an attachment on the inboard
side. Would also mean that you couldn't leave a handwheel or vaccum adaptor
on the outboard side and remove or install a chuck or other spindle mounted
device. All of which means one would be tempted (yeah, you would, and you
know it) to "try" using the indexing lock as a spindle lock. Wonder how
long it would last before breaking the cast aluminum indexing wheel or the
pin?
4. In reading the manual, it indicates that if you change any of the
settings, that they will reset within one minute after turning the "master
switch" off. This would indicate to me that if you reset the ramp up/down
speed, it will reset to the factory default when you turn it off (not unplug
it). It doesn't specifically say that, but that seems to me to be a
reasonable assumption given what's stated in the manual about setting
changes returning to the factory defaults upon turning it off.
5. I think someone else mentioned this, but the electronics only have a two
year warranty.
6. I know this has been mentioned several times, but I really can't believe
the "master switch". It appears to be almost incredibly fragile and flimsy.
Unless it's made out of some material other than the simple plastic it
appears, it wouldn't last a month in my shop.
I'm quite happy with my 3K 1.5 Leeson setup, so wasn't looking to upgrade
necessarily, but have to say after looking at it, I'm disappointed in
Teknatool. It's missed opportunities like this one that change companies'
futures, often permanently. Vicmarc, Woodfast, etc., have to be absolutely
rejoicing right now.
Del "CLTL? IBTIMG? Decisions, decisions" in Dublin.
"Steve Tiedman" <s...@mninter.net> wrote in message
news:3CB8CD86...@mninter.net...
Del Morissette
the motor. I can't find anything on the Teknatool website nor in the DVR
manual that indicates the actual current draw of the motor. They indicate
it will work fine on a "standard 115V 15 amp outlet" but don't indicate what
it actually draws. The 18/3 cord would indicate to me it's drawing
materially less than 10 amps. Don't know how they get 1.75 HP out of that
(shades of Craftsman "develops 15 HP!!"?). But then I don't see anything
actually on the Teknatool website that says it's 1.75 HP (did I miss it?)
other than in the "review" that they carried. The manual gives the
appropriate sizes of extension cords for a 1HP motor, but figure that's just
left over from it being the 3K manual. Anyone know the actual current draw
of the motor?
Del "wondering in his CLTL shirt while he waits for his IBTIMG shirt" in
Dublin
"Del Morissette" <delmor...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:2wpu8.13330$V44.496@rwcrnsc53...
> Since my aching back is preventing me from doing anything useful (like
> trying out my new monster Termite from Herm) I also trundled on down to my
> local Woodcraft to check out the DVR. They wouldn't let me plug it in, so
> couldn't see if I could find what's on the setup menu. I'd agree with
what
> Steve has noted and would add a few other observations.
>
snip
David Peebles
has nothing to do with the import of a persons post or opinions.
Dave
Dave Peebles
Lyons, Ohio
Revolutions Woodturning
www.bowlturner.com
"James Barley" <james...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:qKou8.33197$de1.1...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
Lyn J. Mangiameli
It always interests me, both professionally and casually, how a simple factual
comment can be taken so many different ways, and how a person's take on it can
be so revealing of themselves.
Lyn
jb
entertainment and information! <G>
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CBA415D...@earthlink.net...
David Wade
Del Morissette wrote:
> 2. I really wonder how Teknatool is measuring the HP on this motor since
> the wiring to it is 18/3 cord. Doesn't seem to me that 18 gauge wire will
> carry enough current at 115 volts required by the stated horsepower even at
> 100% efficiency.
I believe there was some reference to "equivalent to 2HP" or "like a
2HP" but no real statement of its actual HP rating. I guess what I was
waiting to hear is that you can really lean into a 16" blank and it
does/doesn't bog down.
> 3. There is an indexing knob on the top of the headstock with a warning
> label that says you must not use the indexing lock as a spindle lock; you
> must use the "LH threaded chuck removal nut in the outboard threads"
> (probably not an exact quote, but very close and accurate as to
> information). I looked at this "chuck removal nut" and it is really a LH
> threaded solid (no through bore) bolt with a large (~1 1/4"+) hex head that
> threads into the outboard side of the headstock. I presume one would then
> put a wrench on it to "lock" the spindle while doing whatever on the inboard
> side. Opinion here, but I think a reasonable one: That doesn't qualify as
> a spindle lock.
A big thank you Del for noticing this. This could be a real killer to
me. I figured I could live with the 250 RPM minimum since that means I
could start with something about four times as out of balance as with my
Jet, that has a minimum of about 550 RPM, I think. (I'll let the
engineers figure the inverse square centripital moment of inertial
acceleration nonsense to see if my intuition is right.)
On the other hand (five fingers) I imagine someone could just weld a
handle onto that nut and hang it on the side of the machine where it's
handy. But would you still have to use the indexing pins if you needed
both hands, like to unscrew an uncooperative block off a screw chuck?
Maybe I'll just wait and save up for another year to get one of the 'big
boys'. Oh well, almost...
David
Steve Tiedman
order a cold one, and speak your peace.
Without the new guys, or even long time lurkers who rarely toss out a posting,
this group would have been dead in the water a long time ago.
Steve. (Google tells me 1,120 posts to RCW and going, written by me in the past
few years, and many, many more that are directly related to me in resulting
threads.)
--
Steve Tiedman
s...@mninter.net
Minnesota, USA
------------------
Peter Teubel
upgrading from my Jet 1236. If things go well, the NEXT upgrade will be to a OneWay or Serious. Fewer steps to the top...
Peter Teubel
Milford, MA
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
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cliff
Cliff
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CBA0B25...@earthlink.net...
Del Morissette
it as the spindle lock, but on the machine itself the warning label clearly
states not to use it as such and that you have to use the "nut" (which isn't
a nut at all, but a bolt) to "lock" (in quotes because the only way you can
lock it is by putting a wrench on it and holding on) the spindle to remove a
recalcitrant chuck, etc. I just can't imagine unthreading whatever I have
on the outboard side, threading that bolt in, doing whatever I need to do on
the inboard side, and then unthreading the bolt and putting back on my
handwheel and/or vacuum adaptor (Victor at BestWood made me a handwheel for
my 3K that has the same female threads on the outboard side of it as the 3K
has outboard so I can have my hand whell and my vacuum adaptor both.).
Don't discount the current Nova 3K in your search; it's still a solid
mid-range lathe. Even though it currently comes with the 1HP AC "free" it's
still a comparatively attractive deal adding a VS DC 1.5. Although I do
have some concern long term for Teknatool if the DVR becomes the albatross
that it appears to be headed for.
Del "trying to figure out how to short Teknatool stock while waiting for his
IBTIMG shirt" in Dublin
"David Wade" <wade...@att.net> wrote in message
news:3CBA4E78...@att.net...
Lyn J. Mangiameli
I very much agree with your second comment, but my reading of James' post
doesn't indicate he said that. Regardless, I do agree that the quality of a
post, be it answer or question or report is not dependent on the number of
posts made or the time in the group. As I think we both know, there have
actually been lots of examples of newcomers contributing much of value from
their intial post, and some examples of veteran members becoming crankly and
detached, though they still post.
However, as was indicated by the majority of the responses, folks saw Ian's
post as being a bit different than the typical newcomer wishing to contribute
to the group. My problems with his post were carefully delineated, and I
imagine anyone who has read this far is well aware of them. They certainly were
more complex than simply not liking him for his positive feelings about the
lathe, as Cliff would suggest.
As for Cliff, I would suggest that comments on whether we have bias and whether
we have revealed it "up front" will more likely be valid if the poster has a
familiarity with, and the larger perspective on others that generally requires
a bit of time to acquire. Using myself as an example, I suspect that most who
know me in this group would find me quite open as to my opinions, background
and interests. Indeed, if Cliff had followed either of the two links I provided
at the end of my comments to Ian, he would have read reviews and followup
comments in which I was quite explicit about my potential bias. And had Cliff
followed the group for a bit longer, he might be aware of how I have been quite
an advocate for Teknatool products that were good, helped put in perspective
problems that had been reported with respect to Teknatool products, and have
spent a fair amount of time rooting for the DVR as well as pressing the issues
of its faults. Now I realize that Cliff did not personalize his comments to me,
but I am just using myself as an example of how a little greater familiarity
with the group and it's members might have given him reason to pause, if not
choose to post his comments differently.
But mostly, I think this has been a great thread. I don't see things as black
and white as Cliff does. To me it is not a matter of just choosing to buy or
not buy something. It is a matter of learning as much as one can about a
potential major purchase (at least major for many in this group), a major
player in the industry, and just about the plusses and minusses of the
technology that exists in support of our turning. I know I have, and I think a
lot of others have learned a lot from this discussion, perhaps Teknatool has as
well. I didn't read anyone writing irrational criticisms of the DVR or
Teknatool, but I did read remarks from Ian and Cliff that certainly came across
to me as wishing to stifle if not bring an end to the discussion. I've always
distrusted those who which to impose closure or ridicule discussion, and I
still do.
David, I know I've again said far more than relates to your comments, but I
guess I'm taking this opportunity to write what I avoided taking the time to
write as a response to Cliff. I see discussion as good, and the best
discussions being those where people actively try to bring reason and evidence
to bear on the topic. I felt that this thread largely exemplified that, and am
dismayed that others have understood it as something else.
Lyn
cliff
someone important -- it the person doing the posting. It's the ones that
analize you or I on the few comments we make and ---- yes right here on this
site --- this very site that some day will have the cure to all
man/woman/kinds ills. So keep posting Buddy.
Yes there are research scientist all the world reading every word you and I
and the rest of them turners post. Just waiting for that big find. Hey,
you never know it might be right here in this post. The CURE.
<G>
Cliff
"David Peebles" <bowl...@fulton-net.com> wrote in message
news:ubkfita...@corp.supernews.com...
Don Evans
See the message I posted on 7/20/2001, last paragraph......
Don
Don Evans
Thanks for the link. This allows everyone to see what they are talking about
with the 12 times per revolution of knowing where the shaft is at. If one
counts the squares around the circumference of this diagram you'll see how it
is done.
Don
James Barley
Even though my original post was to do with a trend-in-general, I had
noticed developing, and not aimed at anyone, even you, this response is all
yours, if you so chose.
You mention "revealing of themselves", what I really find revealing about a
person is the fact that he would take the bother to check and find out that
a person posting a message, had only posted 3 times previously, as if that
should matter.
--
James Barley.
http://members.shaw.ca/jamesbarley
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CBA415D...@earthlink.net...
Don R Sayler
merits or otherwise, of the DVR, as I believe it's not too great too get
stuck with another lemon. Been there too often. It is far too simplistic to
say buy it if you like it, don't buy it if you don't. How the heck are we
supposed to make that informed decision if we don't listen to the advice or
critique of those who have gone before, or have the intelligence to pick
some issues apart? I sincerely regret not having the opportunity to follow
some of your posts 'before' purchasing my Nova 3000. I certainly won't be
upgrading to the DVR, but may well have if it were not for the information
and concerns put forth by various members that have been a little faster on
their feet (and heads!) than me!! Thanks again, Don
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CBA5553...@earthlink.net...
Don Evans
their concern of switches going bad etc and now you mention the beeping. This
and seeing the pictures makes me wonder if the switches are not switches at all
in the mechanical sense. They may be capacitance switches which do not move.
Instead it senses your finger being present, close by. These are the same
switches used in most elevators where a light comes on in the switch when you
touch it. Because the switch doesn't really move there must be some other
indicator for your mind to know you have made the connection like the light or
the beep.
Anyone who has seen the machine say? Does the switch actually move in and out?
In any even these switches I've spoke of don't go bad, there is nothing to go
bad. That doesn't mean one may not work some day but it will be the sensing
circuits attached, not the switch.
Don
Scott Post wrote:
>snip
> My biggest gripe, however, was the R2D2-like beeping the damned thing
> made. :-)
>
> --
> Scott Post sep...@insightbb.com http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/
Lyn J. Mangiameli
Many of the manufacturers and other major players follow this site daily (at
least week daily). Same thing goes for the more general woodworking
manufacturers and tool providers in their following of rec.woodworking and
Badger Pond. Oftentimes, it is actually part of the job of people fairly high
up in the organization. For example, Rob Lee follows 3 or 4 sites every day,
just to follow trends, hear what people are saying about his companies'
products or service, and yes, even looking for ideas. These newsgroups are
often a more effective means of communication to manufacturers and stores than
some might imagine.
In addition to that, what goes on in this group does have an influence on what
products become more available or are dropped. If one gives a careful eye to
the last several catalogs from the major woodturning dealers, you will find
many examples of the product mix following the trends which developed first on
this group.
So obviously, there are more primary reasons why most of us participate, but I
wouldn't sell short the influence of this group when a general consensus is
reached about the desirability or undesirability of a product.
Finally, I think you will find over time that some of the people you initially
dislike or have run ins with often become good and helpful friends a few weeks
or months later. I've experienced this and observed this take place a lot. I
think it is because in reality, few come hear to massage their egos (it just
doesn't work, there is always somebody who will want to shoot them down, just
for the sport of it), but most come here to learn, share companionship, and do
what they can to help fellow woodturners. So in most cases, sooner or later,
one finds their perceived enemy bending over backwards to be of help, or doing
something one can't help but admire. It's one of the nice things about this
group, which most of us have found, has some of the best people in it that you
could find anywhere.
Lyn
James Barley
Thanks for the support Dave, It'll probably be all I'll get. 8^)
--
James Barley.
http://members.shaw.ca/jamesbarley
"David Peebles" <bowl...@fulton-net.com> wrote in message
news:ubkfita...@corp.supernews.com...
Lyn J. Mangiameli
Appreciatively,
Lyn
Lyn J. Mangiameli
I actually didn't check for the purpose of seeing how many posts Cliff had
made. Perhaps because you had a mindset in that dirrection, did you end up
assuming that motivation. Rather I didn't recognize him, and thinking he might
have been active in threads I don't follow (like pens) I wanted to see what he
said about other things so that I could put his comments in a larger context. I
for one, know that some days I'm crankier or shorter than others. Frankly, I
think that is a good thing, to read more about what a writer has said on a
topic, just to get a better feel for where they are coming from.
As for what I made of finding that his call for closure and criticism of some
others came on his third post to the group, I'll refer you to my reply to
David.
I guess I missed out on perceiving "the trend" and so didn't understand the
underlying basis for your comments. No, I actually don't wish to make your
response all mine, as I don't think it fits me, and I'm kind of surprised that
you think it would. I'm not as active as I used to be in answering newcomers
questions publicly in the group, as many of the group have seen me cover that
ground more than once. What I now often do is contact that newcomer by email
and send copies of write ups I've provided on that topic in the past, with an
invitation that they can followup with me personally or on the group as they
like. As I've mentioned before, if I think one of my posts provided a pretty
good answer to a particular kind of question, I save it so that it will be
available to send out privately.
So perhaps you can understand that I really was surprised by the "take" you had
on my brief comments, and considered them to presume things about my comments
that were not there. Of course stranger misperceptions (on both sides) have
occured with us all.
Lyn
Leo Lichtman
shortcomings, and a number of unknowns, which are stressing a lot of us. In
addition to the lathe's problems, we are getting views and interpretations,
which themselves are dominating this thread. It is getting hard to keep
them separate, and I think this is clouding our thinking. Keep in mind that
if you buy this lathe, you will have the lathe--not someone's opinion of it.
This is not an entry level lathe. The potential buyers are turners who want
to upgrade, which means that they already have perfectly good lathes, but
they want something better. So why jump in now, just because the lathe is
new, while there are still so many questions? I predict that within a year
or so, either these deficiencies will be corrected, or they won't. If they
are, won't you be glad you waited? And if they're not, you may be glad you
don't own the lathe.
And after a year, if you decide that all this fuss was not warranted, and
you want the lathe, you really will be more secure in your decision than you
possibly could be today.
In my opinion, the strongest message you can send Technatool is not buying.
Lyn J. Mangiameli
Woodcraft and Teknatool to seed some of these lathes well in advance of their
official release. Had that happened, we would have two or three folks known to
us who could have worked through the questions and concerns raised here (most
likely privately until the release date) and then been prepared to respond to
the issues and questions based on some thoughtful experience with the lathe.
Maybe they would have found problems, but at least they could have deliniated
them and discussed how, if possible, one could work around them, as well as
place the problems in perspective with the advantages. Ian could have done some
of that, but he neither followed the concerns of this group, nor did he seem to
thoughtfully work through the strengths and weaknesses of the lathe in his
possession.
FWIW, I heard that my DVR headstock is to arrive in a little over a month.
Unless there is a last minute change of heart, I'll be able to explore some of
these issues on one then. The advantage for me is that if it proves as
unsatisfactory as it now seems, I'll just remount my 1.5 Leeson which I'm quite
happy with. But how much better it would be if I had received the headstock a
month ago, rather than in a month. This is an experiment folks, not a
commitment. But what you can count on, and surely Teknatool knows, is that I
will pull no punches; there will be no "cream puff" reviews from me, but if I
like it, warts and all, I'll be ever so happy to say that too, and why.
But alas, it's an experiment I can't even start for at least a month.
Lyn
The Flowers
> BTW, using their figures, assuming a linear function, and trusting my
> math (the latter not to be taken for granted), if 24000 shaft posiition
> measurements per minute are made at 2000 rpm, then that would be 12000 at
> 1000rpm, 120 at 100rpm and only 12 at 10 rpm. 12 at ten rpm and 1.2 at
> one rpm. It this sufficient to maintain speed tracking at low speeds?
And this goes back to my questioning how many position sensors the shaft is
equipped with. And/or what positioning technology is used.
--
Bill Flowers
Clearwater, FL
The Flowers
news:ccmjbu0k54k97ohr5...@4ax.com...
> I wonder if this technology is already there but we just aren't aware
> of it in applications where its advantages and characteristics are not
> of golly-gee-whiz interest to prospective consumers. William Flowers
> posted some links on 4/8 and they show a couple of applications we may
> not have noticed. Here are the links with a couple of relevant quotes
> from the actual sites
Thanks for the credit, but it wasn't me. It was someone responding to me.
P.S. And I consider most everyone here friends (or at least friendly), so
call me Bill.
The Flowers
news:3CBA5D5F...@nc.rr.com...
> Anyone who has seen the machine say? Does the switch actually move in and
out?
> In any even these switches I've spoke of don't go bad, there is nothing to
go
> bad. That doesn't mean one may not work some day but it will be the
sensing
> circuits attached, not the switch.
I can say that these are real membrane switches, not capactive sense
switches. I did spend some time going over the machine at my local
Woodcraft.
The Flowers
news:3CB9EBC3...@mninter.net...
> You know, as I'm sitting here remembering the scenario, I did this timing
> test while starting at top speed, 3500, and going down to 250. I pressed
> the down speed arrow and as soon as the spindle started turning I started
> watching my watch. Maybe there's something different in each direction?
> Don't know why there would be.
Torque ramp vs. speed ramp. I believe the machine defaults to torque ramp.
The torque at higher speeds is higher, so a given change in torque would
take longer (if I recall my physics). I think (too early, not enough coffee
yet).
I bet if you'd switched the machine to speed ramping it would have changed a
LOT faster.
Chuck Engstrom
It was William Noble, and I apologize to both of you.
Best --
Chuck Engstrom
Chestertown MD
Chuck Engstrom
There are membrane switches on the control pad on the front side of
the motor assembly, and there's also a plain old toggle switch on the
left end for power on/off -- overall power, so to speak, not motor
start. That's the one that some see as not being very substantial, and
I think would agree.
Best --
Chuck Engstrom
Chestertown MD
Brian C Wadell
I'm not a hugely experienced woodturner but I have actually used the
Nova DVR 3000 so I'll venture into the fray.
My local Woodcraft store let me on one yesterday for about an hour
as I am planning to buy. I turned spindles. I have previously used
the Delta
midi 46-250, the Nova 3000 with an AC motor, the Jet 1236, the
Delta 46-700, and a Sears (single tube style) for spindles/tools,
a bowl, a small box, and a small hollow turning (thanks Beth!).
I have not used DC drive before, only belt driven.
Generally, it seemed VERY smooth to me. There was very low vibration
at the piece
and the piece seemed smoother to me with less work. It did not slow
when I pushed in with the chisel which was weird at first. I'm used
to pushing until I can start to feel the lathe whimp out but that
didn't happen.
Fit and finish and tailstock were good as described by others.
Noticeably better than the 3000 tailstock. You need a wrench they
should have included for a big nut on the outboard side of headstock.
The ramp function that everyone is excited about is very easy to use.
It's the first programmable function (the only documented one) and
you just set the seconds until it reaches full speed.
(Hit PROGRAM, UP/DOWN)
I used it when
marking the piece for beads with my pencil. I set the ramp to something
like 40 seconds and then hit start/stop as I did the beads. It would
spin slowly for a second or two, I got my mark, and I hit stop, move
to next line and repeat. It was quick and easy to put back to a fast
ramp. I believe
a side effect of slow ramping is that you will use less
current from the wall when starting a huge piece--that means you can do
larger pieces with the same motor.
The
speed increases instantly when running using an UP/DOWN arrow buttons.
You can only push UP/DOWN so fast though.
It's not as quick as turning a knob but I thought it was fine. I liked
tweaking out mechanical resonances.
There is a short delay after you push START until it begins rotating. I
liked that as I could pay attention to what I was pushing and then
return my attention to the piece, grab a tool, and it would beep
as it started ramping up speed. It was just about right.
I think the "hidden" functions will be very easy to document even if
Teknatool doesn't do it. There aren't that many buttons and the
display is pretty informative--it tells you what you are setting and
what to do next. The manual says you can power off to get it out of
weird modes so I won't be afraid to try anything out. Unfortunately,
that implies I won't be able to store my personal preferences in
nonvolatile memory.
Brian
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Pamela Reilly
I heartily agree with Don. This discussion has been extremely informative.
While not being in the market for a new lathe of any kind, I am new to all
of this and appreciate all the different views of what's good and what's bad
about any particular piece of machinery. These are big purchases and no one
individual can possibly see each and every benefit/drawback in these items.
While, obviously, much of what has been discussed is specific to the DVR, I
feel that quite a bit can also be applied to other lathes, and, possibly,
other woodworking equipment as well.
They say that you learn more from your mistakes than your successes. The
same can be said of debate. If everyone agrees, what has anyone learned?
Pam
Don Evans
Ok, thanks, guess that answers that. I guess you know what I would have
designed in.
Oh well.......
Don
Don Evans
My guess would be that it doesn't need sensors in the true sense (he he) of the
word.
One can put the circuits on the main card to do this and look at the fluxing
changes that would take place when a pole passes a magnetized coil.
I'm thinking in terms of "pass a compass back and forth over a magnet" type
sensing. It's not difficult to use this to monitor the positioning and I'll
also point out the wording that Teknatool used, "it know where the shaft is at
all times" or something to that effect.
So with this, the magnetized coils themselves could pass back the fluxing
signal, no sensors, per se, needed. These motors normally have 12 or them
already built in.
Don
Don Evans
Don't know what happened on my other message, it just missed a grap. What I
added, I thought, was that it looked like the guess that was made way back then
was now becoming the popular consensus that it is the way the motor is really
designed.
Sorry about the other post, I didn't mean it to come across like: "hey, look at
what I said".
I must have messed up what I wrote when copying the link over.......
Don
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote:
>
> Gee, sometimes I forget that we've followed this for nearly a year. Yes, I
> even remember that thread and how much you helped us all develop the
> questions and understanding that by now seems obvious.
> Appreciatively,
> Lyn
>
> Don Evans wrote:
>
> > Lyn:
> >
> > See the message I posted on 7/20/2001, last paragraph......
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:rec.crafts.woodturn
Lyn J. Mangiameli
There was sure no problem on my end. I was serious, all of your posts seem thoughtful and many
of your posts show great technological insight. I regularly learn from them and am very
apprieciative for that. And I was amused to look back and see how long ago Woodcraft and
Teknatool but forth their teaser, and how little factual information has come from then since.
W.A. (Bill) Flowers
"Ian Fish" <ipf...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:82be7ec.02041...@posting.google.com...
> Someone said "Teknatool is a day late and a dollar short. There are
> too many unanswered questions about the technology and its
> implementation and Teknatool isn't talking." WELL WHY SHOULD
> THEY!!!!!!!!!!
> If you've got the fastest car on the race track you don't tell
> everybody else why do you?
You are misquoting something I said. Worse, you are misquoting it out of
context.
What I actually said (in full context) was:
> I'm not trying to spread FUD, but for now I think I'll plan on buying a
> Nova
> 3000 and put a VFD drive on it. At the moment it looks like the DVR
> design
> is a day late and a dollar short. There are too many unanswered questions
> about the technology and its implementation, and Teknatool isn't talking.
> I
> hope they do. Teknatool has about 8 months to convince this future
> customer
> that the DVR is the right decision.
I stand by what I said above, that is "a day late" or more like many months
late from the announced release date. I don't think anyone can argue with
that or take offense; it is a statement of fact as I know it. The "a dollar
short" comment clearly is explained by the following sentence: "There are
too many unanswered questions about the technology and its implementation".
Clearly from the activity in this newsgroup there are a lot of questions and
many people who are interested in seeing them answered. Again, it is hard
to argue with this, but you try anyway.
Also the phrase I used "it looks like ..." is indicating that what follows
is how I view it and not a statement of fact. I did not say "Teknatool is
..." -- the difference between my perception of where Teknatool is and an
absolute statement claiming to be the truth. The truth is there are not a
lot of hard facts available right now and that is what is getting people
worked up.
Or perhaps you are telling me that that is not how I feel. Perhaps you know
me better than I know myself.
You (Ian Fish) go on to say:
> This is a pretty harsh criticism. In my opinion they have produced a
> revolutionary variable speed motor/headstock with almost straight line
> torque curve over the rev range. It has a power response "brain".
Harsh criticism? I view it (in context) more as statements of fact. Also I
went on to say that I have not yet decided and remain willing to be
convinced; that is, I am trying to keep an open mind.
In fact, there are many things I like about the Nova DVR, some of them
inherited from the Nova 3000 (swiveling headstock design and very solid
implementation in its class) and some new things (such as the more massive
tailstock). Plus I'm a self-professed geek and technology nut, which makes
the DVR attractive from that point of view. But I like to know that the
investment I make in a tool will give me something that will do all I need
it to, and will deliver long-term reliability. If the DVR can deliver, then
I'll vote for it in the best way possible ... with my hard-earned cash.
And finally, you ask why Teknatool should be talking about the technology.
As I see it Teknatool has created their own problem: they are trying to sell
the DVR based on the "cutting edge Digital Variable Motor Technology (a
world first) which puts it far ahead of any other woodlathe on the market."
(This is a direct quote from the Teknatool website
http://www.teknatool.com/.) You see, if they were trying to sell "the most
massive tool in its class" then they would have to present how much it
masses (I'd accept its weight). Or if it had the greatest swing, or the
greatest distance between centers or the best MTBF or ... No matter what
"hook" they are using to sell it, they have to present the facts to back
their claims.
So what are the facts? In the absence of facts, people speculate and FUD
(fear, uncertainty and doubt) runs rampant. And they way to combat FUD is
with facts, not marketing hype.
Feel free to contact me publicly on the list of privately via email if you
wish to discuss this further.
In the meantime I remain hopeful that at some point soon the technical
details will be made available and most, if not all, questions will be
resolved. I hope so because I'd really like to be able to buy a lathe as
technically sophisticated and revolutionary as the DVR seems to be (and
touts itself as), and do so with confidence.
W.A. (Bill) Flowers
> My guess would be that it doesn't need sensors in the true sense (he he)
of the
> word.
Oh?
> One can put the circuits on the main card to do this and look at the
fluxing
> changes that would take place when a pole passes a magnetized coil.
> I'm thinking in terms of "pass a compass back and forth over a magnet"
type
> sensing. It's not difficult to use this to monitor the positioning and
I'll
> also point out the wording that Teknatool used, "it know where the shaft
is at
> all times" or something to that effect.
Huh. That's why I leave engineering to those knuckle draggers down the hall
and I stick to software.
> So with this, the magnetized coils themselves could pass back the fluxing
> signal, no sensors, per se, needed. These motors normally have 12 or them
> already built in.
Well, with 12 sensors (of sorts) "built in" I can see how they could get the
claimed 24000 shaft positions measurements per minute at 2000 rpm (2000 rpm
X 12 sensors per revolution).
Just idle speculation, but I still wonder what would happen with only 12
position fixes per revolution at extremely slow speeds. The answer to that
question may be the reason for the bottom limit on RPMs. Maybe. And maybe
not. Hopefully we will know given time.
W.A. (Bill) Flowers
news:Toqu8.225417$Yv2.67965@rwcrnsc54...
> I wish I had thought to look for a motor plate to check the current draw
for
> the motor.
I was at Woodcraft again today and looked for it. There wasn't one!
cliff
Very well written. I do wish I could write as well as you. But that's
for another newsgroup.
Far from wanting to end the discussion regarding the DVR I simply did
not appreciate/like the comments folks were making regarding the character
of a person they did not know. I'm one of the old fashioned guys. I take
people for their word until they "actually do" something different. I
do/did enjoy the post. I read all of them. Again it seems like every other
one was giving a hit to Ian's character.
I also agree we should make our choices financial and otherwise) based
on as much knowledge we care to find.
Thanks everyone for your input -- I've been posting for years and I
usually get good advise within a couple of days.
CRL
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > I would have to agree with you James, I think that the number of posts
made
> > has nothing to do with the import of a persons post or opinions.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > Dave Peebles
> > Lyons, Ohio
> > Revolutions Woodturning
> > www.bowlturner.com
> >
> > "James Barley" <james...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> > news:qKou8.33197$de1.1...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > > Do I detect a new trend here?
> > > If I plan on responding to a post,
> > > Is one supposed to research the archives, and let the number of times
a
> > > person has previously posted temper their response.
> > > Sort of like having tenure, if you've posted a lot in the past, not
> > > necessarily on topic, or sensibly, we'll take you seriously, and if
you're
> > a
> > > relative newcomer then , "keep your opinions to yourself
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Barley.
> > > http://members.shaw.ca/jamesbarley
> > >
> > >
> > > "Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
Lyndon Thomas
TURNING wood.I would suggest that many of the participants in the
interminable discussion on the DVR3000 do likewise.
Best wishes L.
Don Evans
It's been a while since I talked with Roger Latimer. But if I picked up
something in one of the recent post correctly, it sounds like they did listen
to what I told him about putting a connector on the control module so it can be
moved later with an extension cable. He gave me no indication that it wasn't
already in the works but I'm also sure he doesn't make those decisions.
Did I read that somewhere recently?
Point is if it wasn't in the works, then he was listening and trying to make
changes. I'm sure they have regular meetings with all department heads like I
use to do when active. Our brainstorming sessions and customer feedback were
always an important part of those meetings. But we couldn't always give the
customer his way of course. For ever action there is a reaction, so some
changes would affect something more important a lot of the times.
Lyn J. Mangiameli
Roger provided this information in a response to an inquiry from Mike Paulson (IIRC).Roger included
me in his response. There is a standard connector for a flat computer cable (36 pin?). Roger also
included photos of the connector and the electronic housing, which indicates that it should not be
that big a deal to make the controls movable (though I hope one can get away from the ribbon
cable). I intend to try this out when I can. I suspect that movable controls will not be a long
way down the path for the DVR.
Lyn
W.A. (Bill) Flowers
news:692003d9.02041...@posting.google.com...
> I have an excellent Vicmarc lathe.This enables me to spend much time
> TURNING wood.I would suggest that many of the participants in the
> interminable discussion on the DVR3000 do likewise.
Good suggestion. My problem is that I don't have an excellent lathe, as you
do. If I did I wouldn't be mooning over a DVR ... instead I'd be turning as
you suggested.
Despite that, I think I'll go home and turn something tonight. Or maybe
work on finishing the finish of the pieces I turned over the weekend: square
cherry plate and mushroom with natural edges. :-)
P.S. Someone should start a company which at least sells if not
manufactures lathes and call the company the "Excellent Lathe Company".
Then I could hope to someday have an excellent lathe. ;-)
--
Bill (wishing I had an excellent lathe) Flowers
Clearwater, FL
Don R Sayler
goes away. The rest can still enjoy!
"Lyndon Thomas" <d...@morso.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:692003d9.02041...@posting.google.com...
william_b_noble
right is not really a motor, it's a stepper motor, which if you think about
it is more of a rotary solenoid. And the power draw is probably on a label
elsewhere on the machine - the law (I believe) requires certain information
be imprinted, but I don't believe that it must be on the components of a
machine - for example, your computer disk drive does not say how much power
the motor uses, but it does (often) say how much power the overall assembly
uses.
I think the link to the TI web site's application note will give you the
most insight into how to control this kind of motor (again presuming that
what I understood technitool to be saying was what they were in fact
saying).
If it were me considering this lathe (and I am NOT considering this lathe,
so this is an unverifiable hypothesis), I think I would wait about a year -
it's clear that there are bugs in the controller, and it's clear that some
more work is needed. I do have a Nova Comet lathe and I think highly of it
(and it's discontiued), so I'm not saying this for any anti-Technitool bias,
but because early adopters pay a price, and I don't see a major advantage of
this technology over a more traditional lathe with a motor/pulley
arrangement. If you get your motor and controller used, you can get a
vicmark lathe for a similar price point and have a well proven technology
(my catalog shows a bare vicmark lathe at about $1200), and I have sold
new/surplus 2 HP AC 3 phase motors for about $50, and I have seen AC
controllers for $50 to $150.
"W.A. (Bill) Flowers" <wflo...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:iZFu8.9173$bn2....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
David Carley
-David
"W.A. (Bill) Flowers" <wflo...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:qZHu8.4307$PQ....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Leo Lichtman
"W.A. (Bill) Flowers" wrote......... That's why I leave engineering to
those knuckle draggers down the hall
and I stick to software.
position fixes per revolution at extremely slow speeds. The answer to that
question may be the reason for the bottom limit on RPMs
Bill, your reference to "knuckle draggers" is offensive, especially since
you follow up by revealing a lack of understanding regarding the minimum
speed of 250 RPM. But, I don't want to reduce this to a name-calling
process, so I won't say another word.
W.A. (Bill) Flowers
Lichtman:
"Leo Lichtman" <l.lic...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:sAPu8.27267$Rw2.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Bill, your reference to "knuckle draggers" is offensive, especially since
> you follow up by revealing a lack of understanding regarding the minimum
> speed of 250 RPM. But, I don't want to reduce this to a name-calling
> process, so I won't say another word.
Leo, on rereading my message I can see how anyone who doesn't know me could
see my feeble attempt at humor to be offensive. Of course in this newsgroup
"anyone who doesn't know me" means everyone except for only one person that
I can think of, and he doesn't know me well. Although it is the type of
comment I regularly trade with close friends who do wear iron rings, it
wasn't appropriate in this group.
So I would like to apologize to you and anyone else who felt offended by my
off-hand comment.
As to my lack of understanding re. the lower speed limit, that was derived
from a conversation I had with one of my engineers theorizing on the
technology back when even less was known about the DVR than now, with the
information being twice filtered by me (once to him and once from him). Any
error is likely mine.
As I've said before in this group, I am not an engineer; I am a software
designer. Unlike some people who share my profession I don't regard
engineers of any discipline as inferior. Indeed, I have a high regard for
the discipline and responsibility they apply, and I try to bring the same to
my work despite often doing research which is more of a creative process;
almost an artistic process.
If you have some information that would shed some light on why Teknitool
imposed the lower speed limit they did, then I'd encourage you to share it
with the group. The only thing I feel certain of is that the 250 RPM speed
wasn't chosen arbitrarily, but there was a good reason for limiting the DVR
to that speed. If Teknitool could have reliably delivered a lathe that
would turn slower without significantly increasing the cost or extending the
delivery date further, I'm sure they would have. It certainly would have
made for a better product.
Unless I have some facts to contribute to this discussion I'll drop out of
it now, instead of posting further faulty speculation.
W.A. (Bill) Flowers
news:a9g5oq$1j6e$1...@nntp1.interworld.net...
> of course there is no motor plate because the thing, if I understand it
> right is not really a motor, it's a stepper motor, which if you think
about
> it is more of a rotary solenoid.
Maybe, but that sounds like arguing semantics.
> And the power draw is probably on a label
> elsewhere on the machine - the law (I believe) requires certain
information
> be imprinted, but I don't believe that it must be on the components of a
> machine - for example, your computer disk drive does not say how much
power
> the motor uses, but it does (often) say how much power the overall
assembly
> uses.
I looked everywhere visible and could see no such information. Perhaps it
is on a "sticky" label which had not yet been affixed; the lathe still
wasn't fully assembled.
> I think the link to the TI web site's application note will give you the
> most insight into how to control this kind of motor (again presuming that
> what I understood technitool to be saying was what they were in fact
> saying).
Must go read that soon.
> If it were me considering this lathe (and I am NOT considering this lathe,
> so this is an unverifiable hypothesis), I think I would wait about a
year -
> it's clear that there are bugs in the controller, and it's clear that some
> more work is needed.
That's what I'm thinking. Pioneers are the ones with arrows in their
backs. I should know ... at various times I've been on the receiving ends
of arrows and sometimes I've been the one shooting them at the pioneers.
<sigh>
> If you get your motor and controller used, you can get a
> vicmark lathe for a similar price point and have a well proven technology
> (my catalog shows a bare vicmark lathe at about $1200), and I have sold
> new/surplus 2 HP AC 3 phase motors for about $50, and I have seen AC
> controllers for $50 to $150.
If I won a lottery a Poolewood Euro 3000 would look tempting. :-)
Lyn J. Mangiameli
"W.A. (Bill) Flowers" wrote:
>
>
> If I won a lottery a Poolewood Euro 3000 would look tempting. :-)
>
>
I'm sure Mark Hancock would say "Now there's a guy who has good taste in
lathes."
Yes, it (and my first love, the Poolewood 2000) really do appear to be
wonderful lathes.
Lyn
Lyn J. Mangiameli
I correspond privately with you both and I know you both to be truly
intelligent, knowledgeable, nice and generous individuals. I can't help but
feel that our disappointment with the DVR and frustration with Teknatool is
spilling over and causing discomfort with each other over things that would
normally be taken in stride, if not viewed differently in the first place.
I can see how Bill's phase can be construed differently, but I actually read it
as the type of friendly poking that occurs between coworkers who like and
respect one another. Maybe knowing Bill a bit better made it come more
naturally to read his comments with that understanding.
And as a more general comment, I'm sure many of us put forward speculations
that display our lack of technical expertise. Sometimes no one has the special
knowledge to catch our errors, other times a metallurgist, chemist, physicist,
etc. reads them and provides us all with a more accurate or cogent
understanding. From my perspective, that's great. Often times if the faulty
perception or less than fluid description of something had not been presented,
there never would have been the call for the expert to share the facts with us.
So everyone (including myself), let's try not to let our wrestling with the
issues related to the DVR devolve into complaints and attacks on each other
(and Leo, I'm not saying yours was an attack). We're all trying to muddle
through this with what are our fellow turners, and that's about as good a group
to be in a "muddle" with, as any one is going to find.
Meant respectfully to all,
Lyn
Leo Lichtman
> Come on Leo,
*************
I posted this message directly to Bill, meaning to post it to the group as
well:
"Now I feel bad."
Lyn J. Mangiameli
that hasn't failed to say things clearly (or sensitively) enough or responded
a bit too quickly or strongly. As I said earlier, I think the topic has put
people a bit on edge and that has spilled over.
You're great, Bill's great, and generally this whole group is just wonderful.
Lyn
James Barley
It should be noted, and we must always keep in mind the international nature
of Internet newsgroups. So the posts we make are to the world in general.
At times, the little jokes, puns, and innuendo that we in the west tend to
take for granted, can very easily be taken altogether differently, or even
worse, have a different meaning in other parts of the world.
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CBC582C...@earthlink.net...
John Jordan
John
Lyn J. Mangiameli <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3CBC69A0...@earthlink.net...
Lyn J. Mangiameli
I can see it now. Ruth would have us all be in the CLTL T-shirts and hats, and
make us take a picture for her website.
:-)
Lyn
George
always loved the way the marketing weenies belittled everyone else's
specialty - especially the "technicals."
"W.A. (Bill) Flowers" <wflo...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:0uVu8.31292$8W5...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> "Leo Lichtman" <l.lic...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:sAPu8.27267$Rw2.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Bill, your reference to "knuckle draggers" is offensive, especially
since
> > you follow up by revealing a lack of understanding regarding the minimum
> > speed of 250 RPM. But, I don't want to reduce this to a name-calling
> > process, so I won't say another word.
Leif Thorvaldson
Leif
"John Jordan" <johnj...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:a9hugp$5ah$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
Leif Thorvaldson
don't intend to own a Nova DVR3000, I just followed along with a few of the
beginning posts and then lost interest. Finally decided to take a look and
holy cow! This has become quite a furball. Wait a year and then revisit
the topic or then decide to buy. Teknatool might have brought out a gas
turbine powered lathe! *G*
Leif
"Ian Fish" <ipf...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:82be7ec.02041...@posting.google.com...
> I have been reading the letters concerning the Teknatool NOVA DVR 3000
> on Google over the past few days and am intrigued and a bit amused by
> the things you guys want answers on.
>
> I have been a professional turner for the past 11 years and a hobbyist
> for 15 years prior to that. I supply the NZ gallery market and a
> little bit overseas doing mainly presentation style bowls and
> platters. I am not employed by Teknatool but do demos
> or them and other manufacturers of products that I believe in and have
> confidence in. I have had a DVR 3000 for 9 months and have done
> hundreds of hours , all faceplate work ranging from about 25" diameter
> x 5" thick, but the vast majority around 14" x
> .
>
> When I first sighted the NOVA DVR 3000 my first reaction was - the
> STOP button is not big enough, the change of speed is too slow, the
> start up time is too slow, doesn't it make a funny noise, what do
> these other buttons do?, isn't it SMOOTH.
>
> Now, can I please respond to some of your concerns as I see it anyway.
>
> Default speed 1500rpm
>
> This only comes up after the lathe has been switched off either by the
> switch at the outboard end of the headstock or by the wall switch. If
> this troubles you, don't switch the thing off.
>
> The 1500rpm was chosen, I am told, simply because it was roughly in
> the middle of the operating range - faceplate turners will use
> 500-2000rpm and between center turners 1000-3000rpm.
>
> My DVR never gets turned off, that is, the electronics are always
> alive and the speed that the lathe is going to go if it was to be
> turned on is right there in your face on the screen. Surely this is
> safer than having to check the belt position on a 'n
> mal' lathe.
>
> Minimum speed 250 rpm
>
> There has been all sorts of technical reasons suggested as to why
> Teknatool selected this speed as the slowest the thing will go. I'm
> only a humble wood turner and have no idea or interest either actually
> but I do know this - as an experienced wood tur
> r if your piece of wood causes the lathe to bounce around at 250rpm
> you'd better do some more trimming and what's more to the point it's
> very difficult to turn an "out of round" piece of wood at 250rpm -
> what happens? bump, bump, bump with the gouge rep
> led by the bumps every time. I'd even suggest that turning at 250rpm
> on an "out of round" piece of wood is potentially dangerous and
> certainly not for the faint hearted anyway - bet I get some mail of
> that!
>
> And hey guys, just remember what you bought - this is a medium priced,
> medium weight wood lathe - I can't load my trailer with one and a half
> tonnes of wood and expect my wife's 1600cc Toyota to tow it.
>
> Heat from the motor
>
> When I first got my lathe Teknatool told me to try to kill it "Ian
> we'd really like you to thrash it to bits" so I have. The motor, even
> after 10 hours of hard work, has never got more than luke warm, and
> only around the bearings, the sort of temperatur
> that an ordinary AC motor would be at say after 10 - 20 minutes.
>
> Delivery
> I've now had 2 DVR 3000s. The first one came from the first batch that
> was sent to the US. The NZ voltage is 240 volts so I had to run it
> through a transformer. Then, just after Christmas Teknatool had the
> componetry ready to manufacture 240 volt machin
> and so they swapped mine over. Take heart you guys in the US - apart
> from a few out there in NZ being "seeded" as someone said, there are
> no lathes available in NZ yet but we are promised some in June.
>
> In NZ there have been rumours and speculation on this lathe for about
> 12 months and great anticipation. Everyone without exception, who's
> had a go on it, I believe, has been highly impressed.
>
> So be patient in the queue you guys in the US.
>
> Problems with speed readout. I have no idea what the problem has been.
> Both my machines have been really worked and I have tried hard to
> fault the electronics. One of my main concerns was that vibration
> could cause a failure of the electrics. I can t
> l you, hand on heart, that I have not had a fault or failure of any
> kind. However, having said that there will be some no doubt as more
> machines get onto workshop floors, even Rolls Royce cars do break down
> I suppose.
>
> If you have a problem I'm sure Teknatool would like to know about it
> so e-mail them. I believe they have good integrity ( a bit slow
> sometimes though) and they will fix it or get it fixed.
>
> Internal fan
>
> Yes the DVR 3000 has one. Air is sucked from the outboard end of the
> headstock and exhausted in the gap just under the headstock shaft.
>
> Speed of RPM change
>
> At first I found this tiresome but now I find that I am not making
> such dramatic changes and even if I am it's still a darn sight quicker
> than changing a belt position. One problem with a knob type of quick
> speed adjustment is that you may accelerate o
> decelerate too quickly. You can quickly have an out of balance
> situation or if decelerating too quickly even unscrew the work piece
> from the spindle.
>
> Someone said "Teknatool is a day late and a dollar short. There are
> too many unanswered questions about the technology and its
> implementation and Teknatool isn't talking." WELL WHY SHOULD
> THEY!!!!!!!!!!
> If you've got the fastest car on the race track you don't tell
> everybody else why do you?
>
> This is a pretty harsh criticism. In my opinion they have produced a
> revolutionary variable speed motor/headstock with almost straight line
> torque curve over the rev range. It has a power response "brain".
>
> It has no vibration - get that you guys NO VIBRATION. I can stand a
> NZ $2 coin on the top of the headstock, start the lathe at 250rpm and
> run up to 3500rpm. I've done this in demos. Try that with other
> lathes. I bet you have to spend many more dolla
> than you do for the DVR3000 and I bet it will weigh much much more.
>
> I don't care how it works just that it DOES.
>
> Teknatool have developed a motor system which incidentally is covered
> by patents which is revolutionary - no vibration, no pulsing, full
> power through the range. Then what about the new tailstock, the
> extended nose bearing housing, swivel head, ergonom
> ally friendly, cam lock tool slide, outrigger system, extendable bed,
> precision machining throughout. I've been through the Teknatool
> factory and seen the machinery used to produce their product. This is
> no mickey mouse operation not quite as big as G
> eral Motors yet, but working on it.
>
> Well guys, in summary, I've done many hundreds of hours on the
> Teknatool DVR 3000. I believe in the technology. I'm turning faster
> and better and I have no real complaints. I'm turning bowls about 500
> rpm faster than I was able to on my other lathe w
> ch is a very heavy flat bed ex-engineer's lathe. Someone suggested
> that the effect of having the motor and headstock as one unit was like
> a gyroscope. If you've ever held a gyroscope you'll know how hard it
> is to move it from its position. Someone el
> suggested that perhaps the magnetic fields in the motor were
> countering any vibration. Anyway, people who have used this lathe
> have been most impressed by its steadiness and its ability to counter
> vibration.
>
> I do have some concerns still about the control panel but I'm sort of
> getting used to it. Why they give us buttons and then say don't use
> them is a bit of a PR blunder perhaps. I believe the tool rest could
> be improved but the new tailstock is superb.
>
>
> It appears to me that the most critical letters came from folk who
> hadn't used the lathe and were a bit peeved that Teknatool wouldn't
> tell them how it worked or gave a condescending response. Go out there
> and try the lathe.
>
> On reading this through I seem to give the impression that I'm
> enthusiastic about the DVR 3000, well frankly I am.
>
> Ian Fish
Peter Teubel
>At least you didn't call 'em "technicals" complete with curled lip. I
>always loved the way the marketing weenies belittled everyone else's
>specialty - especially the "technicals."
That's OK. We used to call the "Marketriods". And "Sales Weasels". Every department has a nickname for every OTHER department.
Peter Teubel
Milford, MA
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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Chuck
<kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Lyn,
>Only took an interest in us in the last few days, huh. Must have been
>some pretty heavy reading. But just think of all the time you've missed
>having the opportunity to be amused by us.
Just had time to read this today. A most excellent rebuttal.
--
Chuck *#:^)
chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply.
<><
September 11, 2001 - Never Forget
The Flowers
news:FB1v8.2337$fH5.2...@kent.svc.tds.net...
> At least you didn't call 'em "technicals" complete with curled lip. I
> always loved the way the marketing weenies belittled everyone else's
> specialty - especially the "technicals."
That's OK. Where I previously worked most everyone in the R&D department
referred to the sales and marketing people as "slime". And now I've likely
insulted another group of readers of this newsgroup which will require
another apology. <sigh>
Maybe I should just get off the computer for a while and go make shavings.
Or at least reduce the pile of shavings around the lathe. Nah! More fun to
make more. :-)
--
Bill (opening mouth to change feet) Flowers
Clearwater, FL
OB O'Brien
I thought you were pining for a Stubby. OH!, Will JJ be upset. (G)
OB
The Flowers
> I posted this message directly to Bill, meaning to post it to the group as
> well:
>
> "Now I feel bad."
Leo, you have no need to feel bad. You had every right to feel offended by
the phrase I used. While it might have been acceptable within the proper
private context, it was inappropriate within a public (and international, as
someone reminded us) forum. You were right to call me on it. Heaven knows
I've been on the internet for enough years to know how easily it is write
something in perfect innocence but, because body language can't be put in a
message, have its meaning completely misunderstood. That's why people use
smilies and other emoticons such as ;-) (which I should have used, but even
that might not have helped).
I'll tell you what, if you ever make it down to the Suncoast I'll stand you
to your favorite beverage and a nice dinner. We can swap lies and turning
stories (is there any difference?). Heck, if I've got an interesting piece
of wood lying around I'll probably toss some your way. Deal? :-)
P.S. That nice dinner might be at my place. My wife used to be the
assistant chef in a French restaurant. She also ran a custom cake and
gourmet chocolate business! And people wonder why I need to lose 20 pounds.
Lyn J. Mangiameli
too? Gee, this might change the whole character of the group. :-) :-) :-)
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Just to make sure, one more :-)
Lyn