This is "ART'
Ruth
Now this is what I would call true "Woodturning Art" !
http://www.woodworker.org/Winner'sGallery-4.htm
Ruth
Woodturners Logo
My shop and Turnings at
http://www.torne-lignum.com
Joe Moran
"Ruth" <rfn...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12210-3EA...@storefull-2318.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Dan Bollinger
Ruth, I would call that Craft, not Art. Even the judges agree, they said,
"excellent carving and turning TECHNIQUES." Emphasis mine. Craft is
technique and method. Technical skill as opposed to aesthetic expression
Dan
M.J. Orr
--
Email address is bogus.
Contact me through this web site
M.J. Orr
http://www.island.net/~morr
ô¿ô
"Ruth" <rfn...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12210-3EA...@storefull-2318.public.lawson.webtv.net...
>
Ruth
You all may be right.
Steve Worcester
I do agree it is art.(Michael Korhun, anyway)
It is all so subjective, you like what you like.
--
Steve Worcester
www.turningwood.com
Better Woodturning through Technology
(And a hell of alotta practice)
"Ruth" <rfn...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20562-3EA...@storefull-2312.public.lawson.webtv.net...
ed french
century (pick an appropriate century), it would be a highly prized
piece. It may well revert back to the highly ornamental in the
future.
rfn...@webtv.net (Ruth) wrote in message news:<12210-3EA...@storefull-2318.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
Leif Thorvaldson
that) are handled as Art -- some were just wine jugs! "Ars gratitia artis!"
Alternative translation: "I know what I like when I see it!" *G*
Leif
http://www.cnsnews.com/ThisHour.asp#Student%20Kills%20Principal,%20Himself%2
0in%20Pennsylvaniahttp://www.cnsnews.com/ThisHour.asp#Student%20Kills%20Prin
cipal,%20Himself%20in%20Pennsylvania
"Ruth" <rfn...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20562-3EA...@storefull-2312.public.lawson.webtv.net...
>
Dan
I fail to get your point. Webster sez:
Main Entry:1craft
Pronunciation:*kraft
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English, strength, skill, from Old English cr*ft; akin to
Old High German kraft strength
Date:before 12th century
1 : skill in planning, making, or executing : DEXTERITY
2 : an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill *the
carpenter's craft* *the craft of writing plays* *crafts such as pottery,
carpentry, and sewing*
3 : skill in deceiving to gain an end *used craft and guile to close the
deal*
4 : the members of a trade or trade association
5 plural usually craft a : a boat especially of small size b : AIRCRAFT
c : SPACECRAFT
synonyms see ART
The Other Dan ;)
"Dan Bollinger" <danbol...@insightbb.remove.com> wrote in message
news:NsSpa.331251$OV.364298@rwcrnsc54...
Ruth
I didn't post the link to Michael Korhun's work as an "art vs craft"
discussion. I was researching Korhun to find more of his chip carving
work and he's Ukrainian, came across this picture and thought I'd share
it with all of you. Yes, I did call it "art", this is not something I
would own, just am in awe of all the great workmanship. If I can't do
it, it's art.
I've been interested in doing chip carving on a vase for sometime. At
the last two big woodworking shows I talked with professional carvers
and was told you can't do chip carving on small round forms. Well, no
one told Michael Korhun!
Gene
chip carving. What was on the picture was not what I was taught to be chip
carving. Chip carving, as I understand it, is cutting a decorative patern
using (mostly) straight cuts to remove triangular chips from the piece.
I think your "If I can't do it, it's art." pretty well sums it up for most
of us on layman terms. With Mr. Korhun's subject work, I would say that the
art is difinitely in the carving. I tried doing some carving and there just
isn't enough artist in me. You can have all the technique in the world, but
if you can't see the image in there so you can cut away everything else you
end up with zip. I can sit down and copy someone elses work (to a point,)
but that's just technique. The originator had the atistic vision.
Gene
"Ruth" <rfn...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:9849-3EA...@storefull-2311.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Andi Wolfe
> If I can't do
> it, it's art.
Ruth - I think you just hit on the definition of "art" that many of
us use, if we are honest with ourselves. . .
My hubby and I like to visit art museums, and when we tour a modern
art section and see something on exhibit that looks like what we used
to do in first grade, we scratch our heads and wonder how it was ever
defined as "art."
I sometimes think of art as being determined by how much of one's soul
went into making the object. If one thinks of art as an expression of
"self" and not a copy of an artifact crafted by someone else, and if
that particular object speaks to the soul of another person - maybe it
doesn't matter that the boundary between "art" and "craft" has become
so blurred and hard to define.
We become so wrapped up in defining the boundaries of art and craft by
trying to figure out if a beautifully crafted bowl is an object of art
if it has no surface enhancements added, or in determining if an
object is really a piece of "lathe art" if most of its crafting was
done off the lathe. I'm not convinced it's worth fussing over this
boundary just to try to define these terms.
I don't know how many of you had the opportunity to see "Woodturning
in North America since 1930," but I saw it at the Renwick Gallery
along with the companion contemporary exhibit curated by David
Ellsworth in Arlington, VA. The first exhibit hall at the Renwick
showed a Prestini set of salad bowls and also a set done by Osolnik.
As you walked through this gallery you saw innovative or sculptural
work by Melvin and Mark Lindquist, Robyn Horn, and David Ellsworth,
and then you started to see some of the "modern" pieces by Giles
Gilson, Virginia Dotson, Mike Hosaluk, Mark Sfirri, et al. It was a
journey worth taking, and I have many wonderful impressions and
recollections of my goose bumps forming as I stood in front of each
display case or pedestal.
The layout of this exhibit was perfect for showing the transition from
the prized aesthetic of "purity of form" and "beauty of the wood" to
manipulation of an object that begins its formation on the lathe. What
is really ironic is that Rude Osolnik fully intended his objects to be
used, and yet here they were in a beautifully lighted display case
elevated to the rank of "art."
In my opinion, we, as makers, do not have the right to label our own
work as "art." That definition is granted by others, perhaps using
Ruth's definition as listed above, or perhaps by trusting those few
who have spent their time investing in an education to learn more
about how human cultures value objects for their aesthetic qualities.
Obviously, these values change as cultures change. This gets back to
Lyn's original posting about the role of makers, galleries, etc. in
shaping the field of woodturned "art."
Bertie Pittman
It's always a challenge when told something can't be done, isn't it?
Gets the creative juices flowing and makes one think - Why can't it
be done?
Wood turning is fairly new to me but I've been a woodcarver for a long
time. I'm mostly a bird and fish carver and specialize in antique
reproductions. But I have dabbled in other areas from time to time.
As you've found the "pros" you spoke to about chip carving were
definitely wrong. Almost everything ever made of wood has been carved
or decorated by some carving process or another. It may have been
called something different but it has been done, or can be done.
Part of the problem has been many carvers don't know much about
history or about work in other countries or areas other than their
own! *S* I suppose we are pioneering changing some of that with our
worldwide sharing of information here and in other places on the web.
I also visited the link to Michael's work and I too think its art!
And I also don't want to get involved in the "Art vs Craft" argument
either because I found in woodcarving circles that it's impossible to
reach any conclusion or agreement in that area. There are just too
many variables open to people that enjoy making their point or those
who love a good argument - to say nothing of the points of view or
motives of judges, jury persons, show chairmen, or shop owners, or
customers.
Some of the arguments and ideas would have you place Michelangelo in a
kindergarten paint by numbers class or in a ancient kitchen baking
"molded Sculpy products" in beehive ovens - while others would pretty
near elevate him to a form of creator just under the rank of God!
But I would like to share some thoughts that have come from previous
engagements in that war! I found them long ago in relation to the
carver, sculptor, craftsman, Artist argument and now I apply them to
my turning efforts as well.
Simply put:
He who works with his Hands is a LABORER
He who works with his Hands and his Head is a CRAFTSMAN
He who works with his Hands, with his Head and his Heart is an ARTIST
Although these may not be profound words of wisdom they seem to make
a lot of sense to me on a rainy or a cold, snowy day when I'm all
alone with a block of wood, my tools, and my thoughts. It's often
then that I that I think, no - I know - it can be done!
Bertie
On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:35:52 -0400 (EDT), rfn...@webtv.net (Ruth)
wrote:
Ruth
Gene commented: "What was on the picture was not what I was taught to be
chip carving."
************************
I'm sorry, Gene, I can see where I misled you. I found other pictures
of Michael Korhun's chip carvings and this particular URL I posted came
up in my internet search. Michael did fantastic chip carving on items
he turned and if you do a search using his name, the first hit is the
best to view his work.
Derek Hartzell
1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making
friends>
2 a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : LIBERAL
ARTS b archaic : LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP
3 : an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the
production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : FINE ARTS
(2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5 a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6 : decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter
Skill is very much involved in the definition. Are we saying that skilled
workers on the lathe are not artists even when they make beautiful works
involving much skill and creative imagination? Most painters describe
themselves as artists. Much of their work is not aesthetic and takes much
less skill than a woodturner must learn.
I would agree that woodturners have varying degrees of aesthetic sense and
therefore are better or worse artists. But most woodturners develop an
aesthetic sense. I know that my ideas for a bowl or vessel often change as
I get into the wood and discover the grain. It is not merely copying and
executing the duplication of someone else's creation.
Actually the above definition involves skill and aesthetic and doesn't
involve declaration of a twisted political message as much so-called art
today claims is its aim.
Ruth
Andi wrote: ...snip..."I sometimes think of art as being determined by
how much of one's soul went into making the object."
******************************
Andi, you say things very well. I enjoyed your whole post.
I agree about how much soul goes into a work and that other's actually
decide if our work is art. What bothers me is when one piece of work
is declared art and collectible, that artist just keeps producing that
same work. I notice this particularly when copies are made of oil
paintings or photographs, but turners, potters and jewelry makers all do
it. Don't get me wrong, they are still wonderful and it's nice that so
many people get to own a piece, but in my mind each reproduction
slightly deminishes the awe of the first.
I noticed you don't make the same form enhance or paint the same leaves
or flowers over and over just because the first was a huge success.
Only one Mona Lisa is priceless!
Ecnerwal
Is the work done in such a way that an automated copy lathe could (or
did) produce the same work?
Among other things, I often make mallets and rolling pins - pretty
boring stuff, perhaps. But I don't approach them in a manner that the IA
instructor at my high school would have liked - he was a drawing freak,
and all lathe work needed a drawing and rigid adherence to sizing cuts
to keep him happy. A copy lathe would have made his day. I make these
items one at a time, and let the wood and intuition tell me what this
particular one looks exactly like. They all work, and have similarities
due to function, but none are copies. If the wood has issues, the result
may not be what I planned on; deep checks have caused some rolling pins
to become mallets. In a rolling pin factory, that would just be reject
firewood.
Is it art? - sure. Is it "fine" art that I expect to end up in a museum?
- of course not. But it's not the sort of copy-lathe crap you find down
at the (cooking/woodworking) store, either. And if I jumped through
enough hoops to become a name known for "fine art" then my boring
mallets and rolling pins would be magically transformed into "fine art",
which is one of the reasons that I find the "fine art" world a bit
ludicrous. It pays better than honest work, but the smell is absurd.
Recall the flap from a few months ago where some "name" I don't recall,
nor care to, because it's clearly a name steeped in male bovine excreta,
entered an unturned blank in a show and got all sorts of "art points"
from the sort of <expletive> morons that go about decreeing what is
"art". I get better quality fertilizer from the horse farm down the
road...
By the same token, I've seen actual turned pieces which had sloppy work
given more credit in a show because some name did them. Not "artistic
enhanced deliberate flaws", just sloppy segmented turning work, with a
name to go with it. The piece was displayed with the sloppy work to the
rear, presuming that the viewer would not notice it, I guess. There was
better work by non-name people in that show.
--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by
Brad the Lurker
how much of one's soul went into making the object."
If that's the case, the best piece of art I've seen lately was the
pile of box elder shavings in the picture Lowell Converse posted on
WOW earlier this week. Who cares about the bowl he was making, those
shavings had a lot of soul in them ;-)
Owen Lowe
rfn...@webtv.net (Ruth) wrote:
> If I can't do
> it, it's art.
Those who can, do; those who can't, call it art? :)
_____
American Association of Woodturners
Cascade Woodturners Assoc., Portland, Oregon
Northwest Woodturners, Tigard, Oregon
_____
James Barley
--
Best Regards.
James Barley.
www.members.shaw.ca/jamesbarley
"Brad the Lurker" <br...@netopia.com> wrote in message
news:7c64d11c.03042...@posting.google.com...
DJ Delorie
Ecnerwal <Lawren...@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> writes:
> Is the work done in such a way that an automated copy lathe could (or
> did) produce the same work?
This is part of my definition of "art". If I can plan it out on the
computer, and if proper execution relies on precise machining, it's
craft. If the results rely on some innate talent on my part,
especially freehanding something without plans, it's art.
Unfortunately, most of my work falls into the grey area between the
two, so I never quite know what I'm doing ;-)
The other definition I use for "art" is this: Art should evoke some
thought or emotion in the viewer (aside from admiration of the piece
itself). If there is no message, it's not art. If the message is too
esoteric or obscure, it's not art.
I brought some pieces to the local art gallery. He liked the pieces,
but said I needed to come up with something more "creative and
imaginative" to be artistic enough to fit the theme of his store.
I guess that's his definition of art ;-)
Joe Fleming
to that newly found ancient village in Illinois and toss it in the hole with
a couple of shovel's full of dirt. When they dig it up, we will discover if
it considered craft or art. :-)
I partially agree with you that others decide if your work is art. But if I
paint a nice painting, is it art? By most definitions, the answer is yes.
The real question here is: "Is it GOOD art?" Then the artistic value is in
the eyes of the beholder and/or buyer.
It seems to me that this tension results from the desire of some of us to
have our work valued more (as defined by $$$) than a craft piece. You can
call my work "art", "craft", or "firewood", but if I can sell it for an
acceptable amount of money, I don't care what you call it. With wide
acceptance that your work is GOOD, comes the label of art, comes the big
bucks, and comes the recognition of you as an artist.
Yes, I do think the barrier between art and craft for woodturners is higher
only because the medium is not as widely recognized as an artist's medium.
That is changing, but it will take time.
Joe Fleming - San Diego
================================
"Andi Wolfe" <Andi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6150bf34.03042...@posting.google.com...
Dan Bollinger
Dan Bollinger
>
> I fail to get your point. Webster sez:
Webster won't work in this application. Webster lists how words are used in
POPULAR usage. What we are talking about is Art, Craft and Design as defined
by their respective fields or professions. In my opinion, it fits the
definition of Craft more than the others. Obviously, your opinion is
different, but I don't know what that would be, you didn't use your words,
but Daniel Webster's, another Dan. <wink> Dan
Leo Lichtman
Dan Bollinger wrote: (clip) you didn't use your words, but Daniel
Webster's, another Dan. <wink> Dan
So. then who was Noah Webster? <wink, wink>
Kevin & Theresa Miller
...Kevin
--
Kevin & Theresa Miller
Juneau, Alaska
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Owen Lowe
"Joe Fleming" <jf12...@ncr.com> wrote:
> Yes, I do think the barrier between art and craft for woodturners is higher
> only because the medium is not as widely recognized as an artist's medium.
> That is changing, but it will take time.
I've wondered why this is... How is clay, glass, fabric, metal, etc.
more "arty" than wood?
Arch
Here we go again. What is ark? What's the difference between it and
other craft? COCs have no shame. Arch
Fortiter,
Leo Lichtman
Arch wrote : What is ark? What's the difference between it and other craft?
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^
Maybe if he hadn't made it out of wood it would be considered *art* instead
of *craft*. Or it it hadn't been so boxy. Maybe it was the earliest
beginning of the arks and crafts movement.
George
IMNSHO - Craft is a work of patience, art is a work of pretense.
"Dan Bollinger" <danbol...@insightbb.remove.com> wrote in message
news:B8mqa.624265$F1.83426@sccrnsc04...
Dan Bollinger
Damn, Leo! I was taking a big gulp of coffee when I read this and realized
my mistake. I almost spit the coffee all over my keyboard. LOL! The yolks
on me. dAN
Ruth
Owen asked: "I've wondered why this is... How is clay, glass, fabric,
metal, etc.
more "arty" than wood?"
I don't think any of these are more "arty" than wood. You can even add
canvas (paintings). These are all mediums and it's what the person does
with them that elevates his work to Art.
I did one juried show (in one of my past lives) with fabric art. I
pieced fabric to create scenes, quilting actually. There were works
that were awesome! When you looked at some of these quilted pictures
from 8' away, they looked like photos or paintings and not pieces of
cloth.
I'm taking pottery lessons now and am gaining new respect for clay
creations!
I still wonder if all unadorned (painted, segmented, etc.) woodturnings
were sprayed black, which would be considered "art". As in no other
medium, nature's creation (grain, spalting, burl) can be a great
distraction and eye catcher.
Dan Bollinger
higher
> > only because the medium is not as widely recognized as an artist's
medium.
> > That is changing, but it will take time.
>
> I've wondered why this is... How is clay, glass, fabric, metal, etc.
> more "arty" than wood?
As a craft and sculpture medium wood is equal to clay, glass, etc. It is
woodturning that is considered lower than say turning clay pots on a wheel.
The reason isn't about woodturning per se, but the examples people are
seeing. Le't face it, clumsily turned candlesticks from a 2x2 doesn't
inspire viewers. And, most people's contact with turned wood was treen.
Utilitarian pieces are just that. At one time woodturning (ornamental
turning to be exact) was considered equal to the best china. Not so anymore.
To many people in the artworld woodturning is something kids to in high
school shop or old farts do to pass the time making Christmas presents for
the grandkiddies. But, things are changing thanks to the people making great
pieces again. It has only been in the past 20 years that woodart has taken
off. Just look what's happened with furniture art or take a peek inside
'Turning Points.'
Understand too, that discussions of craft versus art versus design are bound
to be biased in a rec.CRAFT.woodturning forum, and, craftpeople generally do
not have degrees in art and design, nor do they tend to sell their pieces in
art galleries, so, their aesthetic viewpoint generally isn't up to snuff
with mainstream art and design. For instance, the 'Design by Numbers' thread
illustrates that. That's because what the artworld sees as Craft isn't the
same as you do. To the artworld, a Craftperson either has a degree in craft
or has apprenticed with a master. If no formal training, then they are
considered a Folkartist. I suspect that many of the turners here fall into
the latter category. It's not better nor worse, just realize that the
artworld categorizes you without permission.
There's an old saying in art, "The artist decides if what they made is art
or not; the rest of the world decides how well they did."
hope this helps, Dan
Arch
Fine art appeals to the senses. It sustains but is not utilitarian. For
me, my wife's New England Boiled Dinner is the paradigm of what defines
fine art.
All my _senses are aroused and pleased when her work of art is placed
before me at supper on 'low Sunday' after the celebration and wonderment
of Easter. The fragrant mist arising above the corned beef brisket is
pure joy for my sense of _smell. The interplay of the leafy cabbage, the
white potatoes, the orange carrots, the off white parsnips, the
laminated onions and the iridescent luster of the broth are a _visual
treat for my eyes. The deep purple beets are kept separate until joining
the other colors on a simple white plate. The effect suggests a Bob
Pritchard Polychromatic or an Andi Wolfe Autumn. (of course, the plate
sits on an ornate maple charger that this 'old fart' turned) I can feel
the steamy comfort as the the hot morsels _touch my throat, but the
ultimate is the masterpiece to be savored. I mean the indescribable
_taste of the whole boiled dinner as its parts meld on my palate
completing the appeal to my five senses. Well not quite complete. The
love and sweetness of my New England wife in making a culinary work of
art for this rebel-cracker is God's art, and His alone. HTH. Arch
p.s. Red flannel hash made from the leftovers the day after enjoying
the art of boiled dinner is craft, and it's also great. ;)
Fortiter,
OB O'Brien
dinner. When will there be an extra place at the table?
OB
W2ZR
now.
Kevin & Theresa Miller
ROTFL!!!
Andi Wolfe
LOL - Andi
http://www.AndiWolfe.com
al...@webtv.net (Arch) wrote in message news:<15370-3E...@storefull-2355.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
Leif Thorvaldson
"deconstructive art!" That Arch! He's always at the cutting edge of
things!
Leif
"Andi Wolfe" <Andi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6150bf34.03042...@posting.google.com...
Arch
On first reading your comments, this woodturner of long ago high school
sloyd now turning toys for his grands, and one who believes that when
you can reduce a thing to small whole numbers you know something about
it, I was mildly offended. On rereading, I think I got it. I had
forgotten that for rcw, craft is our middle name. Thanks for sharing
your insights in this and your other good posts. Arch
Fortiter,
Dan Bollinger
looking forward to turning things for the 'grands, too. Got one so far, an 8
month old girl. :) Dan
Thrud the Barbarian
Don't "Half" read this post. Get to the bottom before gasping.
Art......the use of the word conjures up images of the "Emporers new
clothes".
There is a group of people who believe that they are obviously far
superior to us mere mortals.
If I buy a bottle of GOOD wine for some ridiculous high price, it
usually tastes like cr@p, with teabag taste (tannin) in it, but
because the rich people drink the muck, and want everybody to see how
blooming clever they are they say things like :-
(with nose in air)" It is because you don't have an educated palate,
and you are stupid if you cannot taste the difference".
NO The truth is :- £2.99 Chianti or Cheap French "hand to hand
combat" wine (the sort the "locals" have in Litre boxes for everyday
use) is really very nice to drink with or without food, with freinds
or even on your own------in my opinion.
I hear you wondering where this relates to art, well.........
If you are dumb enough to pay a million dinari/yen/dollars/quid/zog
for a piece of canvas with some oily paint on it, GOOD FOR YOU! glad
you can afford it , but don't tell me how great it is, I can make up
my own mind thank you.
Don't try to tell me "While he painted this he was thinking of his
recently departed cat/wife/car/ and was depressed, he was trying to
paint a metaphor, the juxtaposition of a famin when old melons are
grinning at the moon!!!!"
It's all bunk.
If you like it, it can be called art.
If you made it , it could be art if someone else likes it, but dont
try and tell people that it is fantastic.
Let them figure it out for themselves.
They are not stupid if they dont like it.
The don't have bad taste if the dont like it.
I don't understand a picasso, but I will not call a lady with three
boobies rubbish if someone else likes it.
People are not stupid if they dont like it.
But Sometimes, it is not art.
it is bull, hyped by the so called clever, hoity toity, experts.
The emporer DIDN'T have any clothes on.
ART is Subjective
HOWEVER.........and here is my point - finally
Skill is Skill.
Anyone who can make stuff with their hands has skill.
Some is obviously better than other, but it is still skill.
What we should be praising here is the skill involved in carving those
little people and fruit on the chalice.
Not bickering about whether it is art or not.
*End of Rant*
Thank you
Dan Bollinger
Sometimes it IS! Other times their is some emotional exchange that is
enjoyable, educational and life-changing.
> ART is Subjective
Always. And, therein lies the problem. It is difficult to measure, if at
all.
Everyone has an asesthetic opinion. Some people's opinions are just LOUDER
than others. Some people's opinions are learned, they may have a PhD in Art.
Other's are tuned to the business of Art, Craft and Design. What it boils
down to, I think, is that some people's opinions are better than others and
some are better than mine. The trick for me is who do I listen to. Dan
Leo Lichtman
"Thrud the Barbarian" <itsm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9439a07a.03042...@posting.google.com...
I had a friend, a professional cabinetmaker, who took a perfectly good piano
and covered it with Formica. It was prominently displayed in his living
room. That took skill. I don't see that a discussion of skill is relevant
to artistic merit, or good taste.
Ruth
Thrud ended his rant with: "What we should be praising here is the skill
involved in carving those little people and fruit on the chalice.
Not bickering about whether it is art or not."
I haven't read any "bickering" posts about the picture of my original
post. In fact little reference has been made in the whole thread to
that one piece by Michael Korhun. Also I said "this is what I would
call 'Woodturning Art' " .....expressing my taste as you advocated in
your post.
You have an excellent point, however it's the same one most of us have
been expressing, you're just using different analogies. Kind of like
we're all in the same house, we just got there through different doors
and windows.
Ruth
Dan, I have to respond to your post because it ruffled my feathers a
little (I've been hanging out with the chickens too long!)
<<< Dan wrote: "Some people's opinions are learned, they may have a PhD
in Art. Other's are tuned to the business of Art, Craft and Design. What
it boils down to, I think, is that some people's opinions are better
than others and some are better than mine. The trick for me is who do I
listen to.">>>
No one's opinion is Better than others. To me, people who have art
training (PhD) can distinguish features, techniques, colors or textures
used at various times through history, study body forms, contour lines,
empty spaces, dimension, etc. That does not mean their "opinion" of a
great work is better than mine or yours. They are viewing it from all
these prospectives, I'm simply viewing it. If I find I keep going back
to a picture, turning or piece of pottery and my eyes enjoy the item,
that's art to me. A very good friend of mine is head of the Art Dept.
at Marywood College here in PA., he's (obviously) a fine artist and has
that PhD in Art you refer to; I would never buy a piece of his work, I
don't like his opinion of what's great art (I would never tell him this
either!).
Dan, listen to yourself, you'll know "art" when you see it, it'll be
like "eye candy".
Isn't it wonderful we all have different opinions of what is truly good
art or fine taste; otherwise all our homes would look the same and only
those craftsman skilled at copying would be famous! : )
That's it, I have to go play in the dirt, it's too beautiful out to be
inside.
Joe Fleming
Have you ever seen a Ming Dynasty wooden vessel? Pottery or glass have
certain staying power when it comes to longevity that wooden objects do not
have. It is not likely that you can dig up a fine piece of wood that
haven't decayed to the point of being artifact. In other words, some
materials, because of their resistence to deterioration, are considered
collectible because they exist. This translates into value in the medium
that doesn't exist for wood.
Joe Fleming - San Diego
================================================
"Owen Lowe" <onln...@easystreet.com> wrote in message
news:onlnlowe-8427DC...@corp.supernews.com...
Arch
Sorry we made you mad. It wasn't intentional nor personal. We were just
offering our individual opinions that are welcomed in a NG of diverse
friends that share perhaps, only one interest common to all. FWIW, I
did 'whole' read your rant (which was also welcomed) and I think I got
it. You wanted to make the point that "Skill is Skill". Fine, but I do
remember an important person skillfully arguing; "it depends on your
definition of is". ;) Arch
Fortiter,
Stuart Johnson
>don't like his opinion of what's great art (I would never tell him this
>either!).
>
I had an elderly aunt that spent most of her life traveling the world over
thanks to Uncle Sam. As a result she had a house full of art plus one painting
of the ugliest raccoon you could imagine. Now she took art classes from time
to time but was never very good so I thought the raccoon was one of her
"master pieces". Sadly the time came to have an estate sale. Well I stuck a
$10.00 price tag on the raccoon but there weren't any takers. Late in the
afternoon a woman came up and started ripping me up one side and down the
other for insulting her and her work. She was a fine artist and the raccoon
was one of her finest. She informed me her paintings went for hundreds of
dollars and she couldn't believe anyone could be so ill mannered as to treat
her work in such a shabby manner. Well it was late in the afternoon, close to
100 F, August in Beaumont, TX and no air-conditioning, I was not in the mood
to discuss fine art. I told her she could have it for $5 and resale it for
hundreds in profit. She left in a huff and an older gentleman came up and told
me he would buy it for the $10 just so he could stick it in the nothing over
$5 church rummage sale. It seems he had also been on the receiving end of the
temperamental artist.
In the opinion of the artist it was good art and I really hope whoever bought
it at the church sale found a gallery or museum and was paid hundreds and
hundreds of dollars. However, in my mind it was ugly at $10 and would still
be ugly at $10,000.
Stuart Johnson
Red Oak, Texas
Dan Bollinger
outside gardening, looking for morels and cooking them along with some
asparagus fresh from the garden. Yum! If your feathers were ruffled, then
that probably means there is a lesson to be learned somewhere in what I said
(but not necessarily WHAT I said). All I'll add is that when my insides
hurt I get the opinion of my doctor and not the guy who grades my driveway
once a year. Dan
Oh, Clos du Bois, Sauvignon Blanc, North Coast is really great with grilled
chicken and seared morels. Dan
"Ruth" <rfn...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11183-3EA...@storefull-2317.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Lobby Dosser
"Joe Fleming" <jf12...@ncr.com> wrote in message
news:3ead82ab$1...@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com...
> Pure speculation on my part.......................
>
> Have you ever seen a Ming Dynasty wooden vessel? Pottery or glass have
> certain staying power when it comes to longevity that wooden objects do
not
> have. It is not likely that you can dig up a fine piece of wood that
> haven't decayed to the point of being artifact. In other words, some
> materials, because of their resistence to deterioration, are considered
> collectible because they exist. This translates into value in the medium
> that doesn't exist for wood.
>
> Joe Fleming - San Diego
Quite a lot of wooden objects survived in the Egyptian
tombs and other archaeological sites. Some of the
Egyptian work is more than 5K years BCE and gives us
a very good picture of woodworking skills of that era. I
believe the first known use of the dovetail joint is Egyptian.
IIRC, the Egyptians also turned wood.
ld
hanger1
question.
Can a piece be called a turning, if turning is a minor component of the
total effort involved in its creation.
My opinion on this is that its a carving in which the carver has used a
lathe to remove excess stock.
I would say that the piece in question, has about 2 hours turning and 100
hours carving. Makes it a carving in my book, art or craft !
My thoughts are that to call an item a turning, then turning must be the
dominant technique used. To hide behind the use the lathe to remove excess
stock and give the base block some symetry, then call it turning, is a
bastardisation of turning as a craft. This will eventually lead to the
demise of the very skills and techniques traditional turners cling to,
skills that are going the same way as the ornamental skills of years gone
by.
Let the carvers do their thing, but don't try and piggy back on woodturning
to push your art, stand on your own two feet and make it count as carving.
Rex
New Zealand
"Ruth" <rfn...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12210-3EA...@storefull-2318.public.lawson.webtv.net...
>
> Now this is what I would call true "Woodturning Art" !
>
> http://www.woodworker.org/Winner'sGallery-4.htm
George
Thinking of digging through the dump for some Tupperware to display on your
étagère?
"Lobby Dosser" <lobby....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:azmra.16896$B61....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Tony Manella
I agree that this is art. However, I don't think it is woodturning art but
rather woodcarving art. While it is a very nice woodturning, and may be
woodturning art without the carving, the dominant feature is the excellent
carving on the piece. This is what I think the artist intended, that the
turning is a vehicle for the carving. Kind of like the way escargot is just
a vehicle for the garlic. They work well together but one clearly dominates
over the other.
Along the art vs. craft line, I spent yesterday with a friend of mine, who
is a graphic artist, at the Degas exhibit at the Philadelphia Art Museum. I
also happened to give her a box that I made as a thank you for designing my
business card. Of course we got into the discussion of art vs. craft. She
was quite surprised to hear that I didn't consider the box I gave her art.
She was even more surprised to find that I don't consider myself an artist
but rather an artisan. In her opinion, both the box, and many of my pieces,
are art. She never did give me her exact definition of art as she had to
think about it more. It gave me more to think about. I will ask David
Ellsworth some questions on Wednesday when he gives our club a speech on
design.
Tony Manella
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.org/
James Barley
youmention that you don't consider yourself an "Artist".
Then maybe you could explain to me just who the Artist is that you make
reference to on your website homepage, about midway down the page?
Curious minds, need to know...
--
Best Regards.
James Barley.
www.members.shaw.ca/jamesbarley
"Tony Manella" <nd...@prolog.net> wrote in message
news:vat24er...@corp.supernews.com...
M.J. Orr
I would be VERY surprised if David were to say that woodturning was not
an art. Surely you realize the myth must be perpetuated. How else can one
charge exorbitant prices for a round object. Now if one were to add $2.00
worth of acrylic paint or spend 15 minutes with a woodburning tool OR even
better, drops his/her woodturning.....Now THAT is art......:-)
--
Email address is bogus.
Contact me through this web site
M.J. Orr
http://www.island.net/~morr
ôżô
"Tony Manella" <nd...@prolog.net> wrote in message
news:vat24er...@corp.supernews.com...
Joe Fleming
Joe
========================
"George" <someon...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:Xpsra.1222$IU2.1...@kent.svc.tds.net...
Dan Bollinger
> I would be VERY surprised if David were to say that woodturning was
not
> an art.
suited to answering the question "What is Craft." Dan
> Surely you realize the myth must be perpetuated.
OT, In mythology, the study of myth, a myth is not a falsehood, but a story
with a grain of truth. It's a pet peeve of mine when this word is abuse. Why
not just say falsehood instead? It's a perfectly good word and isn't used
very much.
M.J. Orr
--
Email address is bogus.
Contact me through this web site
M.J. Orr
http://www.island.net/~morr
ôżô
"Dan Bollinger" <danbol...@insightbb.remove.com> wrote in message
news:IxBra.429653$Zo.96785@sccrnsc03...
> > Tony,
> > I would be VERY surprised if David were to say that woodturning was
> not
> > an art.
> Hmm... This statement causes me to pause. I think this group would be
better
> suited to answering the question "What is Craft." Dan
Ummmm Woodturning seems to be a good example. There are likely
more.........
>
> > Surely you realize the myth must be perpetuated.
> OT, In mythology, the study of myth, a myth is not a falsehood, but a
story
> with a grain of truth. It's a pet peeve of mine when this word is abuse.
Why
> not just say falsehood instead? It's a perfectly good word and isn't used
> very much.
Sorry if it happens to be a pet peeve of yours Dan. My opinion....my choice
of words. Feel free to choose your own as you see fit. Not a lot peeves
me.........:-)
>
>
Tony Manella
website for me. So that is her opinion. She is the few people that I know
of who has accused me of being an artist. I'm sure people with a degree in
fine arts would disagree with her.
Tony Manella
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.org/
"James Barley" <jamesa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:9ewra.83517$ja.33...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
Tony Manella
I agree, I would be shocked if he said "his" woodturning isn't art. But it
will be interesting to see how he feels about what all us little people are
doing. Actually I want to ask him questions pertaining to how critics and
collectors have influenced his work.
Tony Manella
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.org/
"M.J. Orr" <rebou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b8m5a...@enews1.newsguy.com...
Thrud the Barbarian
The postings caught me on an off day.
Ruth, the pieces you pointed us at are lovely.
It was only the "Art" debate that got to me.
I wish I could do half as good as that.
I am just starting out with my turning hobby.
So far I am neither artistic nor skillful as I have tried to "make a
stick(1)" and broken that, tried to create a mushroom and lost my
head(2) twice
At the moment I cannot see myself making anything skillful or Arty for
the forseeable future.
Maybe I'll be brave and put up a couple of images of my stuff
eventually, but I am my own worst critic.
(1) My supportive wife has called it "Making a stick"
(2) Not "My" head, but decapitated the mushroom due to overzealous use
of a bowl gouge.