Stabilizing wood with detergent
Clifford A. Johnston
green wood for turning purposes for some time. One "replacement method"
left the wood with a waxy finish and had some other draw backs (cost being
one). I tried to follow up on ESP-90 and got nowhere. They haven't even
answered my email. Then I came across Ron Kent's web site.
Ron Kent has stabilized wood by treating it with a liquid detergent. I
decided to try his methodology on a piece of Live Oak that I had cut down
about 8 weeks ago.
In Ron's article (off the top of my head; therefore, subject to error) he
mentions that he is just experimenting with liquid dishwashing detergent and
has found it to be suitable and inexpensive. It allows for easier cutting
with less checking and wasted vessels/time/material/money. It does not
alter his finishes; indeed, he feels that it enhances the wood. His
methodology is just basically brushing on the concentrate 6 or so times
over a period of several days and letting it dry. He raises questions about
diluting it, immersion treating the wood, etc., but just hasn't gotten that
far and/or hasn't documented it yet online.
I decided to give it a go. I first tried brushing on the liquid detergent
[Costco's brand, Kirkland Clout Ultra (antibacterial hand soap/dishwashing
detergent) - $5.99/gallon. I recall that the Palmolive brand was slightly
less expensive, but I shied away from it because of its green color which
may or may not affect the wood.] Personally I found brushing it on to be a
pain - I am prone to being sloppy with a paint brush. It also raised
questions with me about how much to brush on and how often and how thick.
In addition, how would I know what the penetration was? It really seemed
like a shot in the dark method to me. Not that my next choice was all that
much more scientific!
My next attempt was to soak the wood. I had a 3 gallon plastic bucket.
Into it I poured 1/2 gallon of the liquid detergent and water to cover the
oak which I put in. The oak was a 12" length x 10" diameter piece of live
oak cut in half lengthwise. I then added a slab of spalted live oak on top
and put a brick on top of everything to hold it immersed. I screwed on the
bucket top and went to Toronto to celebrate St. Patrick's Day. (We had our
usual fun fest - my wife is Irish Roman Catholic and I'm Scots/Irish
Presbyterian of Orange Lodge member ancestry! We had a great time until we
found out that the pub owner was English - but that's another story.) I let
the wood soak for 7 days. Today I took it out to dry.
A couple of comments. I left the bark on. The tannic acid in the bark(?)
leached out and tinted the spalted oak slab very pleasantly. The oak trunk
sections also appear to be stained nicely. I don't know how deep this
staining goes, yet. The detergent/water mixture is a dark brown. I may use
it on a piece of kiln dried maple as an experiment just to see what the
effect is. Some minor radial checking on the ends of the large oak halves
closed up, as expected, from absorbing the liquid. The question now is,
"How long should I let it dry before attempting to turn it?" I don't know.
I'll keep an eye on it and perhaps turn one piece in 7 days and then another
piece 7 days later. I'll try to keep you all posted on my progress and the
results.
As far as the dilution of the detergent mix goes, this was probably a 3 or
4:1 mix of water:detergent. I didn't measure it out exactly - I'll take the
time to precisely calculate it later. I'll see how this works first before
trying any other dilution. How did I choose this dilution for the first
effort - strictly a SWAG decision.
If anyone else out there is thinking of trying this for stabilizing wood
perhaps we could coordinate our efforts and keep track of what we are
attempting to stabilize, the water:detergent ratio, drying time, wood
species, dimensions, etc., etc..
I would be more than willing to keep track of this in some sort of table
form and make it available for future reference purposes.
Any and all comments/suggestions/criticisms are welcomed.
Cliff. Johnston
Stephenville, TX
"Round and round I go."
--
Posted from IDENT:root@[208.32.99.23]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
TR
Leif O. Thorvaldson
far am very pleased with it. I used Palmolive Liquid Dishwashing Soap
at a half and half proportion. I have received a number of chucks of
varying sizes of cherry, vine maple, ash, and madrona. In addition, a
friend of mine who runs a VW lumber mill, cut up an ash log into 2 1/2
x 8 x 96" planks. I cut off and soaked the pieces for a couple of
days, then made turning blanks on my bandsaw. These went back into
solution for a couple of days (didn't have time to get to the rough
turning). I then screw chucked them and turned all the bottoms for
eight salad bowls. I left them out and selected two blanks which I
turned into bowls. I left one uncoated with finish and finished the
other with mineral oil. I have not had a single cracked or warped
bowel. The planks that I left in my garage I brushed the end of all
the planks a couple of times, leaving the other ends unsoaped. The
unsoaped ends have developed cracks and the soaped end are just as
they were when they were cut.
So far, I am very enthusiastic about this method. I don't have the
patience for waiting six months to a year for turning bowels and they
still stand a risk of cracking or warping. This allows for instant
greenwood turning.
I, too, didn't care for the brush on method (except for the planks!).
I bought a large plastic storage box with a lid (approximately 12"
x20" x 30") and use that to store my turning blanks until I am ready
for them. I have no scientific basis, but I suspect that no more than
a day or two of soaking in the blank state should be necessary. If I
were really worried about a piece that I am working on, I might
continue to soak it between turning stages.
I think that Ron Kent's suggestion is one of the most revolutionary
methods in turning to come along! Now if I could only afford a 1000
gallon tank and 500 gallons of dishwashing liquid! *G* Anxious to
hear any other experiences!
Leif
""Clifford A. Johnston"" <cajoh...@texinet.net> wrote in message
news:LPBBIAKNLAOCBADOJDO...@texinet.net...
Gerald Ross
"Clifford A. Johnston" wrote:
> I have been interested in trying to find an inexpensive way of stabilizing
> green wood for turning purposes for some time. One "replacement method"
> left the wood with a waxy finish and had some other draw backs (cost being
> one). I tried to follow up on ESP-90 and got nowhere. They haven't even
> answered my email. Then I came across Ron Kent's web site.
>
>
>
> Any and all comments/suggestions/criticisms are welcomed.
>
> Cliff. Johnston
> Stephenville, TX
> "Round and round I go."
>
> --
> Posted from IDENT:root@[208.32.99.23]
> via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
--
Gerald Ross Cochran, GA
==========================================
Anti-Spam Note - For direct email replies,
delete the ' i ' in the reply address above.
Chuck Engstrom
Has anyone tried eating a nice fresh salad out of one of these
detergent-treated bowls?
I don't doubt that detergent treatment give the results being reported
in this thread but I can't help thinking that it might limit the uses
of the bowls thus treated.
Chuck Engstrom
Kennedyville, MD
David Peebles
Jump on over to the woodturning forum on wood central. There are several
people experimenting with this method. Any questions you have I'm sure that
they would be happy to answer....
www.woodcentral.com
Some of the people frequent this forum too. Like Gary Hern and Bill
Grumbine. I think that they have been using a 6 to 1 ratio for the soaking.
I have been meaning to give it a go, but haven't tried it yet.
Best wishes,
Dave
Dave Peebles
Lyons, Ohio
Revolutions Woodturning
www.bowlturner.com
""Clifford A. Johnston"" <cajoh...@texinet.net> wrote in message
news:LPBBIAKNLAOCBADOJDO...@texinet.net...
fran
I've tried this method but with limited success. I used detergent and
water - about 2:1 mix and used the brush to put it on. My real aim was to be
able to turn thin vessels in timber usually not great for turning - pine
etc. My biggest problem was penetration - I'd soak it for a day or two, then
turn but the first cut would remove the detergent soaked skin and I was back
to the same timber as before.
Maybe soaking immersed in a bucket is the solution. I'll give ti another go
and see how it works.
Fran in Ireland
woodtur...@oceanfree.net
"Clifford A. Johnston" <cajoh...@texinet.net> wrote in message
news:LPBBIAKNLAOCBADOJDO...@texinet.net...
Dan and Barbara Gill
posting on Wood Central touched her tongue to the finished bowl. She
proclaimed no soapy taste.
Barbara Gill
http://www.velvitoil.com/index.html
Barbecue, curing and smoking meat, Woodworking and more
-
http://www.velvitoil.com/index.html
Barbecue, curing and smoking meat, Woodworking and more
--
Posted from mail.oasisonline.com [206.246.235.212]
Bill Grumbine
I've been fiddling around with this for a number of months now. The results
have been positive, but they are not magical, and they are by no means
scientific. I have been sharing information with a couple of other turners,
local and not so local as I have progressed. I have also been posting my
results on Badger Pond and Wood Central.
First, I should say that all that I have done is derived from Ron Kent's
initial experiments. Every time I post something here involving methods of
work, techniques, etc., some bozo sees fit to write me privately and remind
me that I did not invent the process, jig, or whatever. I already know
that. Thre is nothing new under the sun, but that's another discussion.
My method has been to make a solution of six parts water, one part soap, and
one part alcohol. This will make one gallon if pint quantities are used.
The alcohol prevents things from growing in the mix. There is no special
soap or alcohol required, anything on hand will do.
I will take a piece of wet wood, and rough turn it along the same lines I
would for a regular turning. It can be a little thinner, although one
should expect that it will still move somewhat. Once it is roughed, it is
immersed in the solution for about a week. After that week, I pull it out
and let it drain for a week. These times are not determined by anything
beyond my lack of alacrity in getting around to turning the pieces, however
one of my associates has recommended a soak of at least four days.
Once the wood has been soaked and drained, I finish turn it. Although the
wood is only two weeks from the wet log, it behaves as if it were dry. It
cuts easily (in fact easier than dry wood), and sands the same as dry wood,
with the exception being that the dust does not clog the paper. If the
paper begins to load, it is easy enough to slap it free again. I usually
sand my regular work with mineral oil, and soap soaked bowls behave the same
if oil is used on them as well.
The results have been pretty much consistent, although I have only done
about five or six pieces this way. The wood still moves somewhat, as wood
will always move. It does not appear to be moving any more or less than if
it would had conventional drying methods been used. The big differences are
that the wood does not crack, and it behaves as if it were dry. In fact, it
feels dry to the touch.
I was also concerned about soap residue left on the wood and adverse
reactions with peoples' intestinal systems, but another poster on one of the
other venues in which I post assured me that even if the bowl was rinsed
heavily with water and then the water drunk, there would not be enough soap
to make someone ill. He said this from a background in poison control, and
as one who gets soap ingestion calls all the time. I have not verified this
and do not claim it, I only report it. I will be corresponding with him in
the future for determining if any soap on the market should be avoided
because of its contents, and hope to learn more then.
As far as finishing goes, I prefer an oil finish or no finish. I have
finished all of the bowls except one with Watco Danish oil, followed by the
Beall buffing regimen, and after as long as three months for some of them,
there seems to be no difference in the finish as compared to regular bowls.
If anyone has any questions, I will be glad to try and answer them. Please
post them here.
Bill
Bill Grumbine
Commercial Site: www.wonderfulwood.com
Personal Site: www.enter.net/~ultradad
Sacred cows make the best steaks
""Clifford A. Johnston"" <cajoh...@texinet.net> wrote in message
news:LPBBIAKNLAOCBADOJDO...@texinet.net...
> I have been interested in trying to find an inexpensive way of stabilizing
> green wood for turning purposes for some time....
Pam Niedermayer
this question.
Pam
Bill Grumbine wrote:
> ...
> I was also concerned about soap residue left on the wood and adverse
> reactions with peoples' intestinal systems, but another poster on one of the
> other venues in which I post assured me that even if the bowl was rinsed
> heavily with water and then the water drunk, there would not be enough soap
> to make someone ill. He said this from a background in poison control, and
> as one who gets soap ingestion calls all the time. I have not verified this
> and do not claim it, I only report it. I will be corresponding with him in
> the future for determining if any soap on the market should be avoided
> because of its contents, and hope to learn more then.
> ...
--
Pamela G. Niedermayer
Pinehill Softworks Inc.
600 W. 28th St., Suite 103
Austin, TX 78705
512-236-1677
http://www.pinehill.com
Bill Grumbine
names, so it won't even be by classification or by manufacturer. It will be
by what is in each individual box or bottle. I can't ask for more detail
than that.
Bill
Bill Grumbine
Commercial Site: www.wonderfulwood.com
Personal Site: www.enter.net/~ultradad
Sacred cows make the best steaks
"Pam Niedermayer" <pam_...@cape.com> wrote in message
news:3AB75DCD...@cape.com...
Tony Manella
Hi Clifford,
Several excellent turners I know (several of whom contribute to this group,
and I hope they will chime in if I get something wrong) are trying a similar
method. First they rough turn the bowl or hollow vessel. Then the piece is
soaked in a mixture of 6 parts water to 1 part dishwashing detergent. After
3 to 4 days remove the piece from the mix and let air dry. Some of the
turners insist that final turning must be done in 3 to 4 days, others say
anytime after 3 to 4 days is fine.
I was at a friend of mine's shop the other week and he showed me two cherry
bowls that he had roughed out about a month prior. One bowl was air dried
while the other was treated using the above process. The bowls were the
same size and shape and came from opposite sides of the log. The untreated
bowl had warped and curved up at the lip about 3/4" to 1". The treated bowl
had almost no warp and the lip was nearly level. The interesting thing was
both bowls had gone oval about the same amount.
Needless to say I was hooked. Went out the next day and bought the supplies
but I've been too busy turning for the two spring boutiques that I do, so I
haven't had a chance to try it yet. But it sure does sound encouraging.
One other note. If you intend to keep reusing the same liquid they
recommend adding about 1 qt. of denatured alchohol per 5 gals. of mixture.
This is to retard fungus and such from forming in the liquid.
Hope this information helps out.
Tony Manella
Pam Niedermayer
Pam
--
Leif O. Thorvaldson
below posts and have now applied my tastebuds to the mineral oil
finished and the unfinished bowls and can detect no soapy taste.
"Leif O. Thorvaldson" <le...@inet1.mashell.com> wrote in message
news:Ylut6.13378$3t6.1...@e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com...
> Cliff: I, too, have been experimenting with Ron Kent's method and
so
> far am very pleased with it. I used Palmolive Liquid Dishwashing
Soap
.
Clifford A. Johnston
The Costco Kirkland brand of dishwashing soap contains an antibacterial
agent. So far nothing seems to be growing. That does not mean that it
won't or can't. I'll keep an eye on it.
Thanks,
Cliff. Johnston
Stephenville, TX
"Round and round I go."
--
Posted from IDENT:root@[208.32.99.23]
Clifford A. Johnston
I've checked out some of the other bulletin boards that were suggested and
have pulled out a few common threads of observations that I would like to
pass on to those of you who don't surf everything out there. Mind you these
are experiences of other people and not controlled experiments; therefore,
they are subject to error and interpretation, both theirs and mine (and I
know I'm not infallible - my wife keeps reminding me!).
1. One report stated that a dilution of 6:1 dishwashing detergent:water
resulted in some failures - a guesstimate would be 25% failures.
2. One report of a dilution of 3:1 dishwashing detergent:water resulted in
zero failures when used on rough, green turnings.
3. Soaking rough, green turnings in a bucket of the dishwashing
detergent:water mixture resulted in substantially better results than
brushing on the liquid dishwashing detergent. Brushing on the liquid
dishwashing detergent proved to have spotty results with the number of
failures approaching the number of successes in some cases; however, the
species of wood may have had something to do with that as the harder species
appeared to have greater failures with the brushing. One should also
consider other variables such as the number of times that the liquid was
brushed on, the thickness of the liquid coating and the length of time of
the treatment.
4. Soaking green, rough turned work in a 3:1 or 4:1 dishwashing detergent
solution for several days resulted in a 100% sucess rate for several
turners.
5. There appears to be a high failure rate using liquid clothes washing
detergent. That is why I have been careful to specify a dishwashing
detergent above. There may even be brand differences there. The two that
have successful reports are the Costco Kirkland brand and Palmolive brand of
dishwashing detergent - both are very viscous liquids (very thick).
5. Several turners have soaked kiln dried blanks in the dishwasher
detergent:water solution and been very pleased with the increased ease of
turning the blanks.
6. Only one other turner, beside myself, was using the soaking method to
prepare logs/blanks. He reported easier turning and no failures, much the
same as my experience. Coincidentally we appear to be using approximately
the same methodology. Everyone else appeared to be treating/stabilizing
green, rough turnings. So it would appear to be very useful in both
scenarios.
7. Several turners reported adding one part alcohol to the solution to
retard "fungal growth". In my limited experience with the Kirkland brand of
liquid dishwashing detergent I have not experienced any "growth" of
anything, perhaps due to the antibacterial agent in this brand of detergent
or perhaps due to the fact that I don't let "old" solution hang around long
enough to develop "growth", or perhaps simply because I haven't been at this
long enough. This brings up a couple of interesting questions: 1. How
long is a 4:1 solution effective? ie: How much green wood will it treat
successfully? and, perhaps even more interestingly, 2. Can spalting be
induced in green wood and even "grown" in a bucket of some type of
olution? - WHAT A THOUGHT!!! Has anyone out there been able to cultivate
spalted wood??? Sounds like a new thread for posting.
There was also a report that someone is getting an article on the use of
liquid dishwashing detergent for stabilizing green wood ready for
publication sometime in the near future. It will be interesting to read it
and the results.
Lyn J. Mangiameli
Thanks for the synopsis, Cliff.
Lyn
Dinyar Chavda
I followed some of the threads also, and one thing puzzles me. The
impression I get is that these turners are essentially "drying" their wood
by soaking it for a week of so and then letting it drip-dry, and then it is
dried out, and you can go ahead and either apply finishing, or turn to final
dimensions and then finish. Is that correct, i.e., once stabilized with
detergentb, you don't have to dry it further by paper-bag or microwaving or
any other technique? Or am I missing something?
Dinyar Chavda
Bala Cynwyd, PA
""Clifford A. Johnston"" <cajoh...@texinet.net> wrote in message
news:LPBBIAKNLAOCBADOJDO...@texinet.net...
Leif O. Thorvaldson
correct. The nice thing I have found is that I can take it out of
solution, let it drip off for a few minutes on a wire rack over the
soaking container, wipe any excess off with a rag and then mount and
turn to finishing the same day. Todate, I haven't even had to finish
it in one day, but have let the partially turned bowel(s) remain
outside the soap solution for weeks at a time with no cracking. I
haven't had a bowel warp or crack yet with either way! I am using
Ivory dishwashing soap. Ron Kent pretty well limited it to
dishwashing soap -- not dishwasher or laundry detergeant. Good luck.
Leif
"Dinyar Chavda" <d.ch...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:qGHu6.1320$IA1.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
John Nicklin
""Clifford A. Johnston"" <cajoh...@texinet.net> wrote in message
news:LPBBIAKNLAOCBADOJDO...@texinet.net...
>
> 3. Soaking rough, green turnings in a bucket of the dishwashing
> detergent:water mixture resulted in substantially better results than
> brushing on the liquid dishwashing detergent. Brushing on the liquid
> dishwashing detergent proved to have spotty results with the number of
> failures approaching the number of successes in some cases; however, the
> species of wood may have had something to do with that as the harder
species
> appeared to have greater failures with the brushing. One should also
> consider other variables such as the number of times that the liquid was
> brushed on, the thickness of the liquid coating and the length of time of
> the treatment.
Soaking would increase the osmotic pressure by keeping more concentrated
solution next to the wood surface, or so I would think. Also, the harder the
wood, the more difficult it would be to penetrate unless there is a strong
imbalance in concentration of detergent between inside and outside the wood.
>
> 4. Soaking green, rough turned work in a 3:1 or 4:1 dishwashing detergent
> solution for several days resulted in a 100% sucess rate for several
> turners.
>
> 5. There appears to be a high failure rate using liquid clothes washing
> detergent. That is why I have been careful to specify a dishwashing
> detergent above. There may even be brand differences there. The two that
> have successful reports are the Costco Kirkland brand and Palmolive brand
of
> dishwashing detergent - both are very viscous liquids (very thick).
I think that you are on the money with your ideas about viscousity. You need
to replace the water in the cells with something that is not going to
evaporate (or leak out) and it is better if that something is, or can
become, viscous. By diluting, we make the detergent less viscous, when the
water leaves the detergent, we regain the viscousity, keeping the cells in
the wood "pumped up" so to speak. This is basically what we do when we use
PEG, except that PEG would seem to be a poor solution (ok, pun intended) now
that simple, cheap, finish friendly detergent is an alternative.
>
> 5. Several turners have soaked kiln dried blanks in the dishwasher
> detergent:water solution and been very pleased with the increased ease of
> turning the blanks.
This is interesting, I would assume that the detergent replaces the air in
the wood. If this is true, then the detergent would support the cell
structure while it is being sheared away, resluting in a better cut.
> 6. Only one other turner, beside myself, was using the soaking method to
> prepare logs/blanks. He reported easier turning and no failures, much the
> same as my experience. Coincidentally we appear to be using approximately
> the same methodology. Everyone else appeared to be treating/stabilizing
> green, rough turnings. So it would appear to be very useful in both
> scenarios.
>
> 7. Several turners reported adding one part alcohol to the solution to
> retard "fungal growth". In my limited experience with the Kirkland brand
of
> liquid dishwashing detergent I have not experienced any "growth" of
> anything, perhaps due to the antibacterial agent in this brand of
detergent
> or perhaps due to the fact that I don't let "old" solution hang around
long
> enough to develop "growth", or perhaps simply because I haven't been at
this
> long enough. This brings up a couple of interesting questions: 1. How
> long is a 4:1 solution effective? ie: How much green wood will it treat
> successfully? and, perhaps even more interestingly, 2. Can spalting be
> induced in green wood and even "grown" in a bucket of some type of
> olution? - WHAT A THOUGHT!!! Has anyone out there been able to cultivate
> spalted wood??? Sounds like a new thread for posting.
The addition of alcohol would seem to be redundant, since most, if not all,
detergents are antimicrobial due to there very nature. If microbes are
growing in the solution, it is probably a sign that it isn't strong enough
to do the job that we want it to do any more. There has to be a point where
the water that is displaced from the wood turns a 4:1 solution into a 5:1
solution. I know that this is true when working with PEG. One could
determine what volume of wood can be treated before the solution changes
concentration enough to make it ineffective, but you would have to know a
whole lot about how much water there is in a given piece of wood to start
out with. The laws of physics would seem to indicate that if you put a piece
of wet (green) wood into a 4:1 solution of detergent and water, and let it
soak long enough, you will end up with an equilibrium of 4+X:1 in both the
wood and the solution. Determining the value for X is a job for the more
inquisitive.
Spalting can be cultivated by placing a fresh-cut log on end on bare earth
for a few days, then maintaing the moiture level for a month or so before
drying.
> There was also a report that someone is getting an article on the use of
> liquid dishwashing detergent for stabilizing green wood ready for
> publication sometime in the near future. It will be interesting to read
it
> and the results.
Indeed. This whole discussion is interesting. Who would have thought that
you could use household dish detergent to treat green wood? Thanks for
providing the synopsis and the insightful questions and observations.
>
> Cliff. Johnston
> Stephenville, TX
> "Round and round I go."
John
Adrien
alkaline. One caveat is to be sure the little kiddies don't get near it. As
I recall this can cause a bit of a burn....
John Nicklin
Are you thinking of dishwasher detergent? Dish washing detergent, the kind
you use to hand wash dishes is alkaline, like most soaps and detergents, but
not enough to burn anyone. Dishwasher detergent is usually higher in pH.
John
"Adrien" <acob...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B6E41A67.2E5F%acob...@earthlink.net...
Clifford A. Johnston
That's the same impression that I am getting. I'm just waiting for a couple
of new tools to come int to try it "wet" out of the stabilizing solution.
I've been letting it dry for a couple of weeks before turning it.
Cliff. Johnston
Stephenville, TX
Crosstimbers Turnings
Clifford A. Johnston
A confusion over wording is starting to come up in these discussions. Ron
Kent uses Costco's Kirkland brand of "Dishwashing Detergent" (got the jug
right in front of me). I use and refer to the same product.
The label reads:
KIRKLAND
Signature
Made in U.S.A.
CLOUT
ULTRA use 1/3
less
Dishwashing Detergent
Antibacterial Hand
Soap
It comes in a one gallon plastic container. The liquid is light amber color
and is quite viscous.
For what it's worth, even Ivory stopped making its soap several years ago.
Their current products are detergents - to the best of my knowledge.
Clifford A. Johnston
Good commentary and right on from my way of thinking too.
It looks as if I may have caused some confusion by inadvertantly using the
term "dishwasher detergent" once in place of "diswashing detergent";
however, by using the name brand, it should be hopefully evident that it is
the dishwashing detergent for hand use.
I've heard of and read about PEG for decades but have never taken the
plunge. How viscous a liquid is it? I can recall that my initial
impression was that it was a bit pricey, and I just left it at that.
Cliff. Johnston
Stephenville, TX
Crosstimbers Turners
Leif O. Thorvaldson
Liquid." I will heretofore and unto perpetuity refer to the
aforenamed substance as Dishwashing Detergent or Liquid (DW D/L). *G*
One thing I have noticed about it is that the DW D/L tends to settle
out. My shop gets cold and the there seems to be a layering of the
product. I broke out my handy-dandy paint stirring attachment for my
electric drill and got everything more or less back into solution. If
it was warmer, it would mix more easily, but I have two bowls soaking
now, that I will remount and sand to finishing and turn the spigots
off the bottoms tomorrow or the next day. Sure beats waiting around
for wood to dry!
Leif
""Clifford A. Johnston"" <cajoh...@texinet.net> wrote in message
news:LPBBIAKNLAOCBADOJDO...@texinet.net...
> Leif,
>
> A confusion over wording is starting to come up in these
discussions. Ron
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Clifford A. Johnston
Thanks for the heads up on the settling/stratifying of the LDD(liquid
dishwashing detergent)/water solution. I've been treating oak and pecan
mostly. The solution goes a dark brown overnight with fresh solution so I
never get to see what is going on in the bucket. I'll set up a separate
control batch and stir it regularly to see if it makes a difference.
Right now I'm trying my first batch of what we call cedar here, but what is
really a juniper, if I recall correctly. I've got some pieces that
literally oozed water as I striped the bark off prior to the stabilizing
treatment. A control piece had checked significantly within 4 to 6 hours of
cutting. The pieces came out of about an 80 year old tree. The banding is
tight and the color looks excellent. The problem with cedar here is that
when a branch dies off the tree does not grow around it and grow over it as
do most softwoods and hardwoods. The cambium only dimples around the dead
branch causing bark inversions/inclusions. The net result is that one is
fortunate to get an 8-10" bowl between dead branches on the lower portions
of average trees around here. It will be interesting to see how well the
cedar stabilizes as we have lots of it around here (it is regarded as an
invasive junk tree in Texas that uses up more precious ground water than
anyother species).
By the way, enjoyed your web site - nice turnings. Keep up the good work.
Cliff. Johnston
Stephenville, TX
Crosstimbers Turnings
"Round and round I go."
P.S.: You certainly have that right about the LDD treatment beating waiting
for 6 months for the wood to dry (not to mention twist, split and whatever
else it decides to do).
John Nicklin
PEG comes in different molecular weights, the ones that would interest us
are in the range of 1000 to 1500 MW. PEG in that weight range is solid or
flakes when you get it, its is dissolved in water to a specific gravity that
escapes me right now, but it is failry viscous, probably as viscous as a 1:3
dish detergnet to water mix would be. There are heavier mole weight PEGs but
they won't dissolve readily at any working temperature that we could use.
There are also lower mole weight PEGs that come in liquid form and would be
next to useless in wood working applications since they never "set" to
solid. They would run out of the wood nearly as readily as the penetrate.
If memory serves me correctly 1200 mole weight PEG is as close to ideal as
you get, it dissolves nicely and penetrates well and stays put when you are
done. Penetration relies more on the size of the PEG molecule (mole weight)
than on how dilute the solution is. If the molecule is too big, it can't get
through the cell walls of the wood.
I have used PEG for treating wood and I don't care to use it again. To be
effective, you have to keep it on the hot side of warm (read a big pain in
the butt.) and even at that it takes a long time to do its thing properly.
Once dried, the wood turns well, but finishing is difficult, only schellac
and epoxy will stick to it and even at that, I'm not sure how. The wood ends
up very waxy.
Compared to dish detergent, it is pricey.
That's what intreagues me so much about the detergent solution solution. I'm
waiting to try this out until I get some new fresh wood, should be soon.
John
""Clifford A. Johnston"" <cajoh...@texinet.net> wrote in message
news:LPBBIAKNLAOCBADOJDO...@texinet.net...
Mark
I can take my blank, rough turn my bowl, soak it for 4 days or so in a
solution of 1:4 detergent:water, take it out, drip dry it (probably leave it
a day so I don't have to bathe in soapy shavings flying off) and finish turn
it?
Won't the end grain still rip like hell cuz the wood is green? Can I sand
it like this? I don't particularly care if it distorts a bit afterwards -
circles, after all, are just an ellipse where the major axis=minor axis.
Gerald Ross
--
Gerald Ross Cochran, GA
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Clifford A. Johnston
Yup. That's about it, and you'll get very little distortion for the most
part with most woods. Also, there are no soap bubbles or lather when finish
turning.
I've been experimenting with 4:1 and 3:1 mixes of water:dishwashing
detergent. I can't tell you too much about end grain ripping out yet. I've
been working with red oaks and pecan mostly - quite hard woods where end
grain tear out is not a usual problem. I've got some softer wood on hand to
stabilize and will report back on them in about 10 days or so.
Right now everything that I have "pickling" is post oak (a red oak with a
rather nice grain - at least to me), pecan, mesquite and eastern red cedar
(actually a juniper). With the exception of the mesquite all of the others
are infamous for checking rapidly. I have an almost unlimited supply of
post oak which I really like but for the checking. It turns nicely with
sharp tools and has some gorgeous grain patterns. I particularly like to
cut across a crotch and turn a vessel with the end grains and crotch swirl
evident. It makes a nice show - wastes a lot of wood, but looks very nice.
The problem has been to get it stabilized PDQ. It looks as if this will
work - so far.
Good luck and keep in touch if you try it. I'd like to know your
methodology and results.
Cliff. Johnston
Stephenville, TX
Crosstimbers Turnings
"Round and round I go."
--
Posted from IDENT:ro...@mail.texinet.net [208.32.99.23]
Clifford A. Johnston
slip up. I shouldn't write these comebacks when I'm tired.
kuhnt...@gmail.com
> I have been interested in trying to find an inexpensive way of stabilizing
> left the wood with a waxy finish and had some other draw backs (cost being
> one). I tried to follow up on ESP-90 and got nowhere. They haven't even
> answered my email. Then I came across Ron Kent's web site.
>
> Ron Kent has stabilized wood by treating it with a liquid detergent. I
> decided to try his methodology on a piece of Live Oak that I had cut down
> about 8 weeks ago.
>
> In Ron's article (off the top of my head; therefore, subject to error) he
> mentions that he is just experimenting with liquid dishwashing detergent and
> has found it to be suitable and inexpensive. It allows for easier cutting
> with less checking and wasted vessels/time/material/money. It does not
> alter his finishes; indeed, he feels that it enhances the wood. His
> methodology is just basically brushing on the concentrate 6 or so times
> over a period of several days and letting it dry. He raises questions about
> diluting it, immersion treating the wood, etc., but just hasn't gotten that
> far and/or hasn't documented it yet online.
>
> I decided to give it a go. I first tried brushing on the liquid detergent
> [Costco's brand, Kirkland Clout Ultra (antibacterial hand soap/dishwashing
> detergent) - $5.99/gallon. I recall that the Palmolive brand was slightly
> less expensive, but I shied away from it because of its green color which
> may or may not affect the wood.] Personally I found brushing it on to be a
> pain - I am prone to being sloppy with a paint brush. It also raised
> questions with me about how much to brush on and how often and how thick.
> In addition, how would I know what the penetration was? It really seemed
> like a shot in the dark method to me. Not that my next choice was all that
> much more scientific!
>
> My next attempt was to soak the wood. I had a 3 gallon plastic bucket.
> Into it I poured 1/2 gallon of the liquid detergent and water to cover the
> oak which I put in. The oak was a 12" length x 10" diameter piece of live
> oak cut in half lengthwise. I then added a slab of spalted live oak on top
> and put a brick on top of everything to hold it immersed. I screwed on the
> bucket top and went to Toronto to celebrate St. Patrick's Day. (We had our
> usual fun fest - my wife is Irish Roman Catholic and I'm Scots/Irish
> Presbyterian of Orange Lodge member ancestry! We had a great time until we
> found out that the pub owner was English - but that's another story.) I let
> the wood soak for 7 days. Today I took it out to dry.
>
> A couple of comments. I left the bark on. The tannic acid in the bark(?)
> leached out and tinted the spalted oak slab very pleasantly. The oak trunk
> sections also appear to be stained nicely. I don't know how deep this
> staining goes, yet. The detergent/water mixture is a dark brown. I may use
> it on a piece of kiln dried maple as an experiment just to see what the
> effect is. Some minor radial checking on the ends of the large oak halves
> closed up, as expected, from absorbing the liquid. The question now is,
> "How long should I let it dry before attempting to turn it?" I don't know.
> I'll keep an eye on it and perhaps turn one piece in 7 days and then another
> piece 7 days later. I'll try to keep you all posted on my progress and the
> results.
>
> As far as the dilution of the detergent mix goes, this was probably a 3 or
> 4:1 mix of water:detergent. I didn't measure it out exactly - I'll take the
> time to precisely calculate it later. I'll see how this works first before
> trying any other dilution. How did I choose this dilution for the first
> effort - strictly a SWAG decision.
>
> If anyone else out there is thinking of trying this for stabilizing wood
> perhaps we could coordinate our efforts and keep track of what we are
> attempting to stabilize, the water:detergent ratio, drying time, wood
> species, dimensions, etc., etc..
>
> I would be more than willing to keep track of this in some sort of table
> form and make it available for future reference purposes.
>
> Any and all comments/suggestions/criticisms are welcomed.
>
> Cliff. Johnston
> Stephenville, TX
>
>
> --
I am heading in the same direction as you I would love to hear how you are doing with it.
jordonkitt
Ralph E Lindberg
his post was from 12 years ago
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> In article <b96b6639-6802-4947...@googlegroups.com>,
> kuhnt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Monday, March 19, 2001 3:28:05 PM UTC-4, "Clifford A. Johnston" wrote:
>
>>
>> I am heading in the same direction as you I would love to hear how you are
>> doing with it.
>>
>
> I haven't seen anything of CLiff in years, on any forum, you will note
> his post was from 12 years ago
>
ago - I tried detergent, didn't like the results, (it made the wood look
weird), though others liked it. I tried freezing and boiling - boiling
seems the best, but ultimately I do neither, I turn thin and let the
wood stress do whatever it wants
Ralph E Lindberg
like Maple and Red Alder I don't bother