Henry Taylor HSS Long Strong Deep U Bowl Gouge vs. Hamlet ASP 2060 Bowl Gouge
Barry
better? I'm going to buy a 3/8" bowl gouge and need an idea of which
tool to go with.
The Hamlet is about $17.00 more...is the extra money worth it?
ANY comments would be helpful.
Barry
Ps: thanks to all the responses to my previous posts re: the Nova
chuck and finishing...you guys are awesome!
Jim M
I have never used any of Henry Taylor tools. I do hear good things about
them though. When I first started turning, I had almost exclusively Sorby
tools and then began branching out from there. Now I pretty much buy tools
that are of powder metallurgy, like the Hamlets 2030 and 2060, Crown Pro PM
(powder metal), Oneway CPM M4 tools, or Glaser A-11 and V-15 tools.
I went to Taylor's web page - and I couldn't find any information on the
grade of steel they use. It's HSS, but is it M2 or M4 or what? They call it
Diamic brand, but couldn't find any other clarifying information.
I prefer the powdered steels as they stay sharper longer. Some will
argue that it only takes a moment to sharpen if you have the equipment set
up to do so. Which I do. But in all honesty, I would rather turn than
sharpen. There are a couple trade-offs however.
1. Higher cost - you already noticed that
2. Because the steel is harder (check the Rockwell scale of hardness) they
are also slightly more brittle. So if you are roughing out a bowl and it has
a lot of bark, or if you are working with manzinita (which has soil and
rocks embedded), or if you hit a embedded nail, wire or slug from some
hunter who missed his target, your tool edge will look broken and chipped
more so than those steels which aren't quite as hard. It won't be bad chips,
but you will visibly see it. Think more in lines of instead of
rolling/dulling the edge over with the softer HSS's, you will be chipping it
slightly.
Now, not every tool is available yet in the specialty steels. But as I
replace a tool here and there, I try to replace them with the better steeled
tools.
And that's my two cents.
--Jim M.
"Barry" <bma...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:9e13bbf.03012...@posting.google.com...
Kip055
>better?
I have used Taylor tools with good results and also have one Hamlet. I agree
with Jim that there are a lot of advantages to the powder metal technology. If
I were replacing a gouge (or adding one of a different size) today, I'd go with
the powder metal product. No experience with Crown PM so I can't comment on it
relative to Hamlet.
Hope this is of some help
Kip Powers
Rogers, AR
Derek Andrews
>Can anybody out there make a recommendation of which of these tools is
>better? I'm going to buy a 3/8" bowl gouge and need an idea of which
>tool to go with.
>
>The Hamlet is about $17.00 more...is the extra money worth it?
As well as considering the metal these tools are made from, take a
look at the shape of the flute.
I believe that the regular Henry Taylor bowl gouges all have a U
shaped flute, but that they are also the manufacturer of the original
superflute designed by Peter Child for which you pay a hefty premium.
See http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm
Most other manufactures seem to use a profile somewhere between the
two. Unfortunately most catalogs and websites don't actually show a
clear picture of their flute shape.
Derek Andrews, woodturner
http://www.sunrisewoodcrafts.ns.ca
Owen Lowe
woodt...@sunrisewoodcrafts.ns.ca (Derek Andrews) wrote:
> As well as considering the metal these tools are made from, take a
> look at the shape of the flute.
I discovered that the Crown PM tools (flute to flute) are generally up
to an inch longer than the comparable Sorby HSS's... I've only two PM's,
but for only a couple dollars more the PM's are definitely less cost per
inch. Doesn't help much if going mail order though.
_____
Member AAW Chapters:
Cascade Woodturners Assoc., Portland, Oregon
Northwest Woodturners, Tigard, Oregon
_____
Jim M
Not only longer, but the size is different as well. I recently compared
a Sorby 3/4" roughing gouge to a Crown Pro PM 3/4" roughing gouge. The Crown
was both longer and wider. Sorby apparently measures the outside diameter
and the Crown the measures the inside flute. And the price wasn't all the
much more for the Crown. So better steel, longer, wider... good value.
Sadly, Sorby will unlikely go to the powder metals that the other
companies have been introducing. At least at this time. At the AAW symposium
I asked the Sorby rep about the powder steels, and he scoffed, saying Sorby
would not go to the pm steels.
"Owen Lowe" <onln...@easystreet.com> wrote in message
news:onlnlowe-639BD6...@corp.supernews.com...
Ralph
the jig that he designed for use with the Wolverine sharpening system, and
others to get the accurate side grinds. The Henry Taylor, because of the
"U" shaped flute reproduces the Ellsworth grind to perfection and also
appears to work better. As an example, the flute on some other gouges are
more "V" shaped flutes and for me they don't work as well. There are other
gouges with the "U" flute but I noticed that most of them were made by
Henry Taylor. This probably doesn't help you any but its food for thought.
Good luck....Ralph
"Owen Lowe" <onln...@easystreet.com> wrote in message
news:onlnlowe-639BD6...@corp.supernews.com...
Owen Lowe
"Jim M" <woodtrn...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> Not only longer, but the size is different as well. I recently compared
> a Sorby 3/4" roughing gouge to a Crown Pro PM 3/4" roughing gouge. The Crown
> was both longer and wider. Sorby apparently measures the outside diameter
> and the Crown the measures the inside flute. And the price wasn't all the
> much more for the Crown. So better steel, longer, wider... good value.
Jim. Thanks for relating your similar observation - hadn't compared tool
diameter...
> Sadly, Sorby will unlikely go to the powder metals that the other
> companies have been introducing. At least at this time. At the AAW symposium
> I asked the Sorby rep about the powder steels, and he scoffed, saying Sorby
> would not go to the pm steels.
All I can say is, "Hmmmph."
Joe Fleming
consideration when selecting a bowl gouge. Flutes vary widely between
vendors and even within one vendor's product line. In my own arsenal of
bowl gouges that have 1/2" thick bars, I have four gouges by four vendors.
The Sorby flute is the most "U" shaped. The Henry Taylor (not the
superflute) and the Glaser are fairly "V" shaped, while the Crown gouge is a
narrow "V" shape. I find that I like to use my Sorby when cutting and my
Glaser while shear cutting/scraping and for pull cuts/scrapes.
Owen measured the length of the flutes on different tools. This may not
matter for these reasons. First, if your gouge is ground down to be so
short that the flute is near the handle, how many of us will keep using it
with a 2" piece of steel sticking out of the handle? Second, when tool
makers heat treat their gouges for hardness, they generally only treat the
top 2/3rds of the tool. Even if the flute is long, it is likely in the
unheat treated section of the bar. Manufacturers don't heat treat near the
ferrule because harder steels are more brittle. They leave this section
softer to handle the shocks that transmit from the bar and into the handle.
If you decide to use the gouge when it is this short, you will find that it
doesn't hold an edge nearly as well as the longer tool.
Joe Fleming
San Diego
=========================
"Derek Andrews" <woodt...@sunrisewoodcrafts.ns.ca> wrote in message
news:3e2ffd1e...@news1.ns.sympatico.ca...
Derek Andrews
>companies have been introducing. At least at this time. At the AAW symposium
>I asked the Sorby rep about the powder steels, and he scoffed, saying Sorby
>would not go to the pm steels.
Wasn't it Sorby that made the Gold gouges where the flute was coated
with a very hard material, a bit like circular saw blades?
I don't see it on their website. Anyone know what happened to that
idea? It seemed sensible to me, I just didn't need a new gouge last
time I saw one in a store so I haven't gotten to try it out yet.
Brad
I'm with Derek on this one. Without going back to look, I think I
have all the bowl gouges that have been mentioned so far, and the
flute shape is important to me. for example, if you are going after
an Ellsworth grind on a bowl gouge, it won't behave like an Ellsworth
signature gouge unless it is shaped like it. The excellent article
Derek provided (Thanks, Derek!)shows a few common shapes and quite a
few grinds. The Ellsworth flute profile is a lot like the 3rd one
down, a wide, rounded "U" shape. You can put a fingernail grind on
the narrower profiles, as seen at bottom right, and it will work just
fine, it just won't work exactly the same as the same grind on a
different profile. The narrower flute profile is reputed to be
stiffer (I think it is), and the wider, more rounded profile clears
the shavings from wet wood better, IMHO. I don't have the genuine
Ellsworth Signature Bowl Gouge, but I do use the Ellsworth grinding
jig on 3 other bowl gouges. They all work well, but David Ellsworth
would probably claim that none is as predictable and forgiving as his,
and he's probably right. Once you get used to a tool and its grind,
I'm not sure how much that matters, though.
My three centavos,
Safe Spinning,
Brad Vietje
Cold & windy Vermont
Peter Teubel
It was a Titanium Nitride coating...same things used on those gold drill bits we often see. We had a Sorby salesman give a "demo"
to our club last year. He mentioned that those coated tools didn't sell well here in the USA. Most vendors don't carry them, but I
believe he said they are still available in other countries (or perhaps directly from Sorby). They were about 30% more expensive,
IIRC.
Peter Teubel
Milford, MA
http://www.revolutionary-turners.com
Barry
hard to answer..but for for a first bowl gouge...u or v?
The hamlet website shows quite a v-shaped flute on the basic gouge, as
opposed to the supeflute (which I cant afford right now anyway...)
I'm leaning towards the hamlet at this point in time.
Barry
woodt...@sunrisewoodcrafts.ns.ca (Derek Andrews) wrote in message news:<3e2ffd1e...@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>...
Barry
for general purposes, and an all-roudn tool - U or V?? (in my case, it
means Henry taylor or Hamlet...mainly its what the local vendors
have...Lee Valley vs.KMS Tools :) )
Barry
"Joe Fleming" <jf12...@ncr.com> wrote in message news:<3e30791b$1...@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com>...
Anny van der Loo
If you're still looking for one of those Gold gouges you can still get them at
Busy Bee Tools and you better bring some Gold too. $175.- for a half inch one
and $115.- for 1/4" bowl gouge. (Cnd$)
They are Robert Sorby and I like theyre regular HSS tools, I do have Henry
Taylor and also Hamlet tools, I for myself cannot justify paying a 50%plus
premium for the titanium nitrite coating nor do I belief that the powder metal
is that mutch better. wat I do know is that I very often reaths for the 1/2"
Sorby and yes I do agree with you that the flute shape is very important, one
reason wy I like the Sorby.
fwiw 90% of the time I use the 1/2 or 1/4 inch gouges (read 5/8 and 3/8 bar
size) the 3/8 gouges do not get mutch use.
One other thing, I do belief that in some (most) gouges the flute is ground in
after the steel is treatet and thus the whole bar is usable(is that a word?)
.anyway
Have fun and take care!!
Leo V.
Derek Andrews wrote
Jim M
"Anny van der Loo" <l.van...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:3E30F651...@rogers.com...
Lyn J. Mangiameli
superior and for what tasks. As someone said, this is likely in no small
part due to what one has grown familiar with, and adapted one's
techniques to.
There was a long discussion, primarily between Steve Tiedman and I on
flute shape around a year ago, it might be worth looking up in the
archives, just use one of our names and Superflute.
I'm a big advocate of swept back bowl gouges with a Superflute style of
flute. I'm also a big advocate of the general geometry that David uses
for his gouge and that Glaser essentially duplicates. However, you will
see that while David's gouges use a traditional Superflute shape
(parabolic), the Glaser bowl gouges are a rounded V shape. I love my
Glaser gouges and prefer their geometry and flute to all others I've
tried (Sorby, and Henry Taylor, but not Crown and Hamlet), including
the traditional (Child via Henry Taylor) Superflute. Others don't.
John Jordan has commented that Jerry arrived at that shape more to ease
sharpening than anything else. I don't know if that is the only reason
(though John knows Jerry better than I), but I can concur that the V
shape is easier to apply a slipstone too. For me though, I also find
the V shape provides more support to the edge near the point, and allows
for a finer point. Those are important to me and I have yet to feel the
shape significantly compromised shavings clearance (anyway, if you are
really having problems with shavings clearance, you probably should be
using the next size larger gouge).
In part to directly test the speculations put for in last years mini
debate between Steve and I, I've obtained a Kelton replaceable tip gouge
that offers two bowl gouge tips that are identical except for one having
more of a V shape and the other having more of a traditional shape. I've
applied the same Ellsworth/Glaser grind to each and have been comparing
their performance. I've just started the comparison, so I don't have
much to say yet, except both styles work with the swept back geometry.
So, right now I wouldn't suggest anyone obsess on or base their decision
primarily on flute shape as long as they can obtain something roughly
approximate to the superflute shape (assuming they wish to apply an
Ellsworth like geometry). Frankly, there are more serious problems to
consider with respect to flutes, such as the issue John Jordan brought
up last year that he had found some brands of gouges not having the
flute properly centered on the shaft.
Lyn
Darryl
>
You can get the Hamlet tools at Jacques Coulombe. The grind that
resembles the Ellsworth is called the "Celtic" grind. According to
Jacques the English measure the shaft outside while others measure the
diameter or some such. Anyway the Celtic in the 2060 grind does stay
sharp longer and I see no difference in my Ellsworth Signature gouge
the Celtic or the Crown although the crown does seem to have a bit
different diameter I think Darryl
By the way JC is at www.jacquescoulombe.com
He is in Canada and the exchange rate makes USA purchases a ralative
bargain
Joe Fleming
The only way for you to know what will work best for you is to try them. I
recommend the less expensive of the two because they are both fine tools,
and I recommend that you start with a tool with a 1/2" bar thickness. Start
with that and learn to use it well. If you are like the rest of us nut
cases, you will eventually try and/or buy other tools. I have eight bowl
gouges: 4 with a 1/2" bar (Sorby, Glaser, Crown, HT), 1 with a 3/8" bar
(Sorby), 2 with a 5/8" bar (Glaser, Sorby), and one with a 7/8" or 1" bar
(Sorby). I have more Sorby gouges because I have a local dealer of Sorby
and I like their flute shape.
If you ever get the money, do consider the 1/2" Glaser A11 bowl gouge (red
handle). This tool is very nice too and Glaser tools are so well designed.
Joe Fleming - San Diego
===================================
"Barry" <bma...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
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