Wax seal on bottles?
John Hyde
my question!), but does anyone recomend dipping the corked wine bottles in a
light coat of wax? Would this aid in sealing the bottle and keep the cork
from drying out or is this just a bad idea?
amic...@earthling.net
Furthermore, a number of wineries have recently begun using either
wax coated corks or a thin layer of wax on the top for that very
purpose.
I, as well as a number of other winemakers, have used wax to try
to help to overcome the problems of lousy cork quality (IMHO). My
results were mixed. I took a old fondue pot and standard jelly wax,
and dipped the bottles 1 season. It has kept the tops of the corks
clean, appears to have improved the problem of minor leakage, but has
created a new problem - that of bottle clean-up an re-use. I've
found the cleanup of the wax afterwards to seem to be a bigger problem
than minor leakage was (generally).
I also think that I had _better_ results by NOT dipping the bottles,
but rather, to ensure that each cork was either seated slightly below
the top of the bottle, or cut off flush with the bottle, and the wax
applied from a teaspoon - just a couple drops - to a upright bottle,
and then spread around the cork/opening with the bottom of the spoon.
Perhaps this would better with a different kind of wax than I used.
It certainly would be better for anyone that doesn't recycle bottles
(for re-use).
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Paul
Since corks provide a semi-permeable (tho' very slow) exchange between air
and wine, in effect slowly oxidizing wine over time helping the wine to
develop with age, does the wax interfere with that exchange ???
My guess would be yes, but interested what others might say, as I have no
proof of this.
Paul
<amic...@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:8shub8$r37$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
MnSRC
>and wine, in effect slowly oxidizing wine over time helping the wine to
>develop with age, does the wax interfere with that exchange ???
I think that you'll get some disagreement on your premise. From past posts, I
know that some here believe that cork allows minute amounts of oxygen to pass,
and others don't. I fall into the latter camp. I'm just not convinced that
corks allow any significant exchange between air and wine, and actually are
intended to prevent that from occurring. Even if some gas movement were
possible, wouldn't it be in the opposite direction given the difference in
pressure? (That's also why poorly seated corks push out, not in) Also,
because post-bottling development of the wine is anaerobic, it is not dependent
on the introduction of any additional oxygen. That's why commercial wineries
can safely sparge their bottles with inert gas before filling.
I don't think that waxing makes a difference either way, because unless you get
a leaker, the cork is sufficient to prevent any oxidization. But waxing
doesn't hurt anything either. IMHO, its really a matter of aesthetics.
Salud,
Martin J. Crane
Michael Filigenzi
good-quality corks completely seal the bottle and prevent any transfer of
air. Changes due to bottle aging are due to reductive chemistry rather than
slow oxidation. This is why the folks at Plumpjack are now putting screw caps
on some of thir $130/bottle reserve cabernet.
Then again, I'm much more of a cork-dork than a cork-expert.... ;)
Mike
Paul wrote:
> Here's another question on wax then...
>
> Since corks provide a semi-permeable (tho' very slow) exchange between air
> and wine, in effect slowly oxidizing wine over time helping the wine to
> develop with age, does the wax interfere with that exchange ???
>
Jack Webb
If you want to make a special *presentation* bottle it sure does
dress up the bottle. Just looks a little silly on a bordeaux bottle
of nice dry grape. Better on those fancy-schmancy fruit wines.
IMHO
Edwin Pawlowski
"John Hyde" <jhy...@home.com> wrote in message
news:vg_G5.43410$P4.14...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
> ....It's just a thought, I've never seen any talk of it (maybe that
answers
> my question!), but does anyone recomend dipping the corked wine bottles in
a
> light coat of wax? Would this aid in sealing the bottle and keep the cork
> from drying out or is this just a bad idea?
You will probably get some very sound advice and real facts about this from
someone here. . That said, I'll tell you why I don't wax. Aside from some
gift bottles, all my bottles are re-used. I don't want to bother cleaning
up the was residue.
My wife recently mentioned doing this, but I'm not planning to, except maybe
some gift bottles if they can be made more attractive. I do have some of
the shrink seals and put them on a few, just for the sake of appearance at
the table or to show off to someone.
As for gift, if the recipient returns the empty bottle, they are more likely
to get another in the future.
Ed
e...@snet.net
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
Clyde Gill
ullage. A bottle that receives considerable proper aging develops a
significant increase in ullage. The missing wine had to go somewhere
and be replaced with something. Stands to reason that there has to be
some exchange going on through or around the cork, albeit very slow.
My understanding of wax seals is that function is more of a tamper
evident seal than a function of "sealing" the bottle. Also looks quite
impressive if done properly including an imbedded logo on top. I would
think that over time a wax covering would be no more of a barrier for
air than the modern tin or plastic capsule, which both have tiny holes
on top to facilitate mechanical application.
latron
clyde
Michael Filigenzi wrote:
>
> I believe Martin is correct. From what I understand, research has shown that
> good-quality corks completely seal the bottle and prevent any transfer of
> air. Changes due to bottle aging are due to reductive chemistry rather than
> slow oxidation. This is why the folks at Plumpjack are now putting screw caps
> on some of thir $130/bottle reserve cabernet.
>
> Then again, I'm much more of a cork-dork than a cork-expert.... ;)
>
> Mike
>
> Paul wrote:
>
> > Here's another question on wax then...
> >
> > Since corks provide a semi-permeable (tho' very slow) exchange between air
> > and wine, in effect slowly oxidizing wine over time helping the wine to
> > develop with age, does the wax interfere with that exchange ???
> >
> > My guess would be yes, but interested what others might say, as I have no
> > proof of this.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > <amic...@earthling.net> wrote in message
> > news:8shub8$r37$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > No in fact, it has been discussed here, a number of times.
> > > Furthermore, a number of wineries have recently begun using either
> > > wax coated corks or a thin layer of wax on the top for that very
> > > purpose.
> > >
> > > I, as well as a number of other winemakers, have used wax to try
> > > to help to overcome the problems of lousy cork quality (IMHO). My
> > > results were mixed. I took a old fondue pot and standard jelly wax,
> > > and dipped the bottles 1 season. It has kept the tops of the corks
> > > clean, appears to have improved the problem of minor leakage, but has
> > > created a new problem - that of bottle clean-up an re-use. I've
> > > found the cleanup of the wax afterwards to seem to be a bigger problem
> > > than minor leakage was (generally).
> > >
> > > I also think that I had _better_ results by NOT dipping the bottles,
> > > but rather, to ensure that each cork was either seated slightly below
> > > the top of the bottle, or cut off flush with the bottle, and the wax
> > > applied from a teaspoon - just a couple drops - to a upright bottle,
> > > and then spread around the cork/opening with the bottom of the spoon.
> > >
> > > Perhaps this would better with a different kind of wax than I used.
> > > It certainly would be better for anyone that doesn't recycle bottles
> > > (for re-use).
> > >
> > > In article "John Hyde" <jhy...@home.com> wrote:
> > > > ....It's just a thought, I've never seen any talk of it (maybe
> > > > that answers my question!), but does anyone recomend dipping the
> > > > corked wine bottles in a light coat of wax? Would this aid in
> > > > sealing the bottle and keep the cork from drying out or is this
> > > > just a bad idea?
> > >
> > >
> > >
Tom S
answers
> my question!), but does anyone recomend dipping the corked wine bottles in
a
> light coat of wax? Would this aid in sealing the bottle and keep the cork
> from drying out or is this just a bad idea?
Personally, I *hate* those wax seals that seem to have become so popular
lately! They really give my lever screwpull a hard time - not on entry, but
when you try to remove the cork from the screw.
I wish the wineries'd go back to the capsule. They're more sanitary, for
one thing. I don't like the idea of having some poorly-groomed stock clerk
putting his grubby hands on the neck of a bottle I'm about to drink from.
Nor do I like scraping those GDMF _neck_labels_ off the bottles I salvage
for recycling (putting _my_ wine into).
Tom S
Adam Anderson
Thin plastic allows oxygen molecules throught that's why Cask *gasp* wine has an additional Aluminium layer, The molecular structure of Aluminium is dense enough to prevent oxygen molecules passing through even when it is as thin as paper.
Sorry If I'm regurgitating old material I'm new to this group.
Regards
Adam Anderson
www.theglass.com.au
Jack Webb wrote:
> But.....
> If you want to make a special *presentation* bottle it sure does
> dress up the bottle. Just looks a little silly on a bordeaux bottle
> of nice dry grape. Better on those fancy-schmancy fruit wines.
> IMHO
>
> <amic...@earthling.net> wrote in message
> news:8shub8$r37$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > No in fact, it has been discussed here, a number of times.
> > Furthermore, a number of wineries have recently begun using either
> > wax coated corks or a thin layer of wax on the top for that very
> > purpose.
> >
> > I, as well as a number of other winemakers, have used wax to try
> > to help to overcome the problems of lousy cork quality (IMHO). My
> > results were mixed. I took a old fondue pot and standard jelly wax,
> > and dipped the bottles 1 season. It has kept the tops of the corks
> > clean, appears to have improved the problem of minor leakage, but has
> > created a new problem - that of bottle clean-up an re-use. I've
> > found the cleanup of the wax afterwards to seem to be a bigger problem
> > than minor leakage was (generally).
> >
> > I also think that I had _better_ results by NOT dipping the bottles,
> > but rather, to ensure that each cork was either seated slightly below
> > the top of the bottle, or cut off flush with the bottle, and the wax
> > applied from a teaspoon - just a couple drops - to a upright bottle,
> > and then spread around the cork/opening with the bottom of the spoon.
> >
> > Perhaps this would better with a different kind of wax than I used.
> > It certainly would be better for anyone that doesn't recycle bottles
> > (for re-use).
> >
> > In article "John Hyde" <jhy...@home.com> wrote:
> > > ....It's just a thought, I've never seen any talk of it (maybe
> > > that answers my question!), but does anyone recomend dipping the
> > > corked wine bottles in a light coat of wax? Would this aid in
> > > sealing the bottle and keep the cork from drying out or is this
> > > just a bad idea?
> >
> >
> >
Tom S
"Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:9C7H5.38576$KI6.6...@typhoon.snet.net...
> As for gift, if the recipient returns the empty bottle, they are more
likely
> to get another in the future.
Especially if they return it _clean_, which they seldom do. :-(
Tom S
Paul
slow exchange with the outside world. I also agree that chemical changes go
on inside the bottle.
Real cork / bark / wood is semi-permeable to the air, and that's a fact.
Personally I can not buy into the fact that any bark can 100% seal a liquid
to the air.
I know some wineries have gone to screw caps, bust MOST by far have not.
Cork has also become VERY expensive as compared to what it used to be.
Cheers,
Paul
MnSRC <mn...@aol.comspamthis> wrote in message
news:20001017174323...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
> >Since corks provide a semi-permeable (tho' very slow) exchange between
air
> >and wine, in effect slowly oxidizing wine over time helping the wine to
> >develop with age, does the wax interfere with that exchange ???
>
MnSRC
>slow exchange with the outside world. I also agree that chemical changes go
>on inside the bottle.
>Real cork / bark / wood is semi-permeable to the air, and that's a fact.
I think Clyde's comment about ullage supports your view. However, the question
remains, is this minute exchange desirable? That's probably where we still
disagree.
BTW, I have a collection of liquor miniatures that were produced just after
prohibition. Many of them are screw caps, but most are now only about 2/3 full
-- ullage again. So not even screw caps provide the perfect impermeable
closure, although a loss of 1/3 over 70 years from a tiny bottle is pretty
good!
Salud,
Martin J. Crane
Brian Lundeen
"Clyde Gill" <peac...@misn.com> wrote in message
news:39ED25DE...@misn.com...
> One compelling argument that I've heard on this subject is the issue of
> ullage. A bottle that receives considerable proper aging develops a
> significant increase in ullage. The missing wine had to go somewhere
> and be replaced with something. Stands to reason that there has to be
> some exchange going on through or around the cork, albeit very slow.
Does the loss of the liquid, through slow seepage and evaporation,
necessarily mean that an equal volume of air is replacing it? Could the
pressure of the gas in the headspace simply not be reduced some?
However, even if it is a one-for-one exchange, the rate of seepage in a
properly sealed bottle is so slow that the level of the wine should still be
in the neck portion of a Bordeaux style bottle for 20-25 years. I don't
think that is enough ingress of oxygen to account for, or even contribute
significantly to, the massive amount of change that almost all wines will
undergo during that period. After 30-40 years, oxygen may become a
significant contributor, but how many of us are making wines that will stand
up to that length of ageing anyway? The bottle, for all intents and
purposes, is a reductive environment, and IMO the use of non-permeable
synthetic corks or seals should not impact on the wine's development over
its expected lifespan.
Brian
Tom S
"Brian Lundeen" <blun...@despam.rrc.mb.ca> wrote in message
news:8skpju$qia$1...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca...
> The bottle, for all intents and
> purposes, is a reductive environment, and IMO the use of non-permeable
> synthetic corks or seals should not impact on the wine's development over
> its expected lifespan.
That is supported by long term trials (UC Davis?) that proved that even
wines sealed in glass ampoules age. You aren't going to convince me that
gases (other than helium) are capable of penetrating glass!
OTOH, leakers are noticeably quicker to age than their non-leaking
cellarmates.
Tom S
David C Breeden
>"John Hyde" <jhy...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:vg_G5.43410$P4.14...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
>> ....It's just a thought, I've never seen any talk of it (maybe that
>answers
>> my question!), but does anyone recomend dipping the corked wine bottles in
>a
>> light coat of wax? Would this aid in sealing the bottle and keep the cork
>> from drying out or is this just a bad idea?
>Personally, I *hate* those wax seals that seem to have become so popular
>lately! They really give my lever screwpull a hard time - not on entry, but
>when you try to remove the cork from the screw.
>I wish the wineries'd go back to the capsule. They're more sanitary, for
>one thing. I don't like the idea of having some poorly-groomed stock clerk
>putting his grubby hands on the neck of a bottle I'm about to drink from.
>Nor do I like scraping those GDMF _neck_labels_ off the bottles I salvage
>for recycling (putting _my_ wine into).
>Tom S
AHem. Some of those small wineries use neck labels for a very good
reason: they save us a ton of money. If we can leave the vintage off
the main label, we can print a decade's worth or so at a time, and
save significnatly on plate charges. We then put the vintage year on
the neck label.
Dave
****************************************************************************
Dave Breeden bre...@lightlink.com
Tom S
"David C Breeden" <bre...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:39ee4...@news2.lightlink.com...
> AHem. Some of those small wineries use neck labels for a very good
> reason: they save us a ton of money. If we can leave the vintage off
> the main label, we can print a decade's worth or so at a time, and
> save significnatly on plate charges. We then put the vintage year on
> the neck label.
Well, OK, but can't you at least refrain from: (a) using water impervious
glue to fasten them, and (b) using foil coated labels that are resistant to
_water_ for soaking them off?
Tom S
David C Breeden
>Tom S
I have two words for you: Mexican glass. At this point we'd use any
kind of glue that would consistently make the labels stick to the
bottle. We get glass from a supplier who in turn gets it from either
Mexico or Canada. I'm not sure what they're using to release the
glass from the bottle molds in Mexico, but it causes the glass to
resist all attempts at having the labels stay stuck. They tend to peal
off in the fridge.
But at least we're not using foil-coated labels.
Have you tried Chlorox _advantage_, or whatever it's called?
Adam Anderson
David C Breeden
>Try washing the surface of the bottle with ethanol, prior to applying the label
>David C Breeden wrote:
Been there, done that. On our regular bottling line, we move at two
cases a minute. That's something like a bottle every 2 1/2 seconds.
It really wrecks things if we have to do things like re-wash in
ethanol. We've taken to uncasing as we need labelled cases, and
re-labelling as needed. We've let our bottle supplier know how much
we enjoy this, and have submitted a bill to them for our time and
materials.
Adam Anderson
Your problem sounds similar to the faults that most paints have when trying to cover silicone. You might be better off if you find out what the glue is on the back of the labels then post a question to one of the Chemical engineering Newsgroups.
Good luck
Adam Anderson.
www.theglass.com.au
David C Breeden wrote:
> Adam Anderson (adam.a...@theglass.com.au) wrote:
> >Try washing the surface of the bottle with ethanol, prior to applying the label
>
> >David C Breeden wrote:
>
> Been there, done that. On our regular bottling line, we move at two
> cases a minute. That's something like a bottle every 2 1/2 seconds.
> It really wrecks things if we have to do things like re-wash in
> ethanol. We've taken to uncasing as we need labelled cases, and
> re-labelling as needed. We've let our bottle supplier know how much
> we enjoy this, and have submitted a bill to them for our time and
> materials.
>
amic...@earthling.net
open the door to a dirty little secret in the commercial winery
business.
If you are washing the bottles, it doesn't seem that it would be
a major problem to insert a ethanol wash cycle to the wash cycle.
In fact, if a ethanol wash 'step' was performed at a station, the
alcohol can be be recycled and used, probably for weeks at a time.
Likewise, I suspect that almost any soap will work pretty effectively
to release the mold release agent on the outside of the bottle, if
the bottle is mechanically washed with soap and hot water.
I know before I bottle, both the inside and the outside of the bottle
is washed and is as clean as possible, before I actually fill the
bottle with any wine.
In article bre...@adore.lightlink.com (David C Breeden) wrote:
> Adam Anderson (adam.a...@theglass.com.au) wrote:
> >Try washing the surface of the bottle with ethanol,
> >prior to applying the label
> David C Breeden wrote:
> Been there, done that. On our regular bottling line, we move at two
> cases a minute. That's something like a bottle every 2 1/2 seconds.
> It really wrecks things if we have to do things like re-wash in
> ethanol. We've taken to uncasing as we need labelled cases, and
> re-labelling as needed. We've let our bottle supplier know how much
> we enjoy this, and have submitted a bill to them for our time and
> materials.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David C Breeden
>You know, I don't want to pick a fight, but it seems that this may
>open the door to a dirty little secret in the commercial winery
>business.
>If you are washing the bottles, it doesn't seem that it would be
>a major problem to insert a ethanol wash cycle to the wash cycle.
>In fact, if a ethanol wash 'step' was performed at a station, the
>alcohol can be be recycled and used, probably for weeks at a time.
>Likewise, I suspect that almost any soap will work pretty effectively
>to release the mold release agent on the outside of the bottle, if
>the bottle is mechanically washed with soap and hot water.
>I know before I bottle, both the inside and the outside of the bottle
>is washed and is as clean as possible, before I actually fill the
>bottle with any wine.
Hmmm. I guess I hadn't realized it was a secret, let alone a dirty
one. I don't know of any commerical wineries that wash bottles. We
use new bottles from unsealed (until we get to them) cases, and have
no cause to wash them. If you can wash bottles at 2 1/2 seconds a
bottle, more power to you.
And for what it's worth, soap, detergent, water, etc., etc. doesn't
touch the stuff on these bottles. Don't think we didn't try.
amic...@earthling.net
> one. I don't know of any commerical wineries that wash bottles. We
> use new bottles from unsealed (until we get to them) cases, and have
> no cause to wash them. If you can wash bottles at 2 1/2 seconds a
> bottle, more power to you.
> And for what it's worth, soap, detergent, water, etc., etc. doesn't
> touch the stuff on these bottles. Don't think we didn't try.
OK, perhaps my attempt at some minor humor was weak, or was the weak
humor minor...
Just yesterday we were talking at coffee break at the office, and
7 out of 8 people, absolutely MUST wash every item of clothing they
buy before they wear or use it. That is, undergarments from sealed
plastic bags, shirts from either sealed plastic bags or hangers, etc.
The same is true of everything that ever comes in contact with food.
I contend that the 7/8 rate is probably about average or typical, and
if (most of) those same people knew or realized that commercial food
and winery processing took items like bottles from cardboard boxes,
and used them without washing them, they would have a major attack of
the hebejebees.
Likewise, ask how many home winemakers (when they purchase new bottles)
take new bottles from the cardboard boxes and just fill them and cork
them. I think you will find the rates even lower than 1/8.
Of course, it isn't hard to create a wash step that produces a bottle
every 2.5 seconds. If the wash takes 25 seconds, that only means you
need to wash 10 bottles at the same time.