Using a vacuum pump to remove oxygen and gases from carboy
David Gravel
process of wine by sucking out O2 and residual CO2. Anyone else hear this?
I never did let him get at my carboy full of Cabernet Sauvignon for fear of
him ruining it.
Jeff Chorniak
Vacuum pumps are used at the on-premise-wine-making facility where I work.
After filtering the wine we hook up the vacuum pumps to de-gas over night.
It merely saves the several days or weeks regularly needed to flatten the
wine if you were doing it at home. Customers don't usually want to wait
that long for their bottling date...nor do they like gassy wine. A small
vacuum pump works well for this. This allows them to bottle quickely, but
you can't drink it any sooner. It is still recommended to lay the bottles
down for some months.
I don't personally know any home winemakers who do this in their house. If
you bulk age in the carboy before bottling (which is good for your wine as
long as it's topped up), it will de-gas itself over time. Same result, less
noise.
It's an industrial thing that processes customers quickely. Nothing more.
On the other hand, at home I occaisionally use a two way hand pump for a few
minutes at a time just to loosen the trapped gasses suspended in the carboy.
It's better than shaking it. I pump for a few minutes, or until my arms
turn to jelly just to wake up the bubbles and let it sit for several days
before doing it again. You'd have to pump for hours to remove all the gas
this way. But it does a good job of getting things moving.
Jeff
David Gravel wrote in message ...
David Gravel
and getting any equipment to do this but will stick to bulk aging, which I
do already.
Dave.
Jeff Chorniak <chor...@cyberus.ca> wrote
> > A friend told me that using a vacuum pump, you can assist the aging
MnSRC
etc., waited a few months then bottled. I still have some of that wine, which
has held up surprisingly well, but releases a bit of CO2 when opened, leaving a
few bubbles on the surface of the wine.
So for my next batch I rigged up a hand pump vacuum from a "Vac-U-Vin" wine
preserver kit and some tubing. This seemed to be alot more effective at
removing the CO2 than stirring, but I agree with Jeff. No method can
substitute for bulk aging. Use the pump occasionally to see if all the gas has
been released. If it still causes bubbles to rise, its not ready to be
bottled.
Salud,
Martin J. Crane
Grasshopper -- Don Buchan
>> After filtering the wine we hook up the vacuum pumps to de-gas over night.
>> It merely saves the several days or weeks regularly needed to flatten the
>> wine if you were doing it at home. Customers don't usually want to wait
>> that long for their bottling date...nor do they like gassy wine. A small
>> vacuum pump works well for this. This allows them to bottle quickely, but
>> you can't drink it any sooner. It is still recommended to lay the bottles
>> down for some months.
>>
>> I don't personally know any home winemakers who do this in their house.
As personally as you know me, Jeff -- you do now. The only difference
is that I filter under vacuum, so the gas comes out of solution *as*
I'm filtering.
I have a dual vacuum/pressure pump (hook the tube up to one exit and
it sucks air in; the other blows air out.) This I hook -- using the
vacuum exit -- to a receiving glass carboy with a tubing and bung
setup that creates a vacuum in the carboy. The bung also has a tube
going to my filter pads, and from there a tube to my wine. Once in
motion, the relative pressure of normal atmospheric pressure forces
the wine through the pads and into the carboy, and the CO2 through to
the vacuum pump.
Much as I'm not out to make champagne and will always be filtering my
wines, I do miss that slight pearl from clear, unfiltered & bottled
kit wines. :(
Don
----------
Don Buchan malak&pobox.com (&=@) http://www.pobox.com/~malak/ From there:
Winemaking linx & FTP, rec.crafts.winemaking FAQ, 1st Baptist Scout Troop
(Mtl Que Can), firestarter FAQ, Scouting FTP & Ask-A-Scout(er), Star Trek
linx & FTP, Help Stop Spam, Zee Svedish Cheff, Summer Camp selection
Harry A. Demidavicius
Would you be so kind as to elaborate on what you did? I would love to
copy cat you.
Harry Demidavicius
[who Vac-U-Vin's every bottle during the corking process].
Jeff Chorniak
invent this setup. I currently use the little three pad mini jet filter
system, but our shop sells the pancake pads alone which can be included in
any kind of do-it-yourself system. If the filtering and degassing work at
the same time this may be an ideal set up for the home.
Jeff
Grasshopper -- Don Buchan wrote in message
<373755f1...@nntp.hip.cam.org>...
E&/orM Wesson
use the 54 liter (12 gal) demi-johns to make my wines and they are
simply too heavy to lift for gravity racking.
I found a Venturi apparatus to attach to my fawcett to create the
vacuum. I think they were mass-produced during the water bed craze when
a simple method was needed to evacuate the bladder. Water passes thru
the venturi opening creating a vacuum in a side opening. If you make TWO
holes in a bung and insert it in an empty carboy, connect the tube at
the side opening into one hole of the empty carboy (creating a vacuum in
the carboy) and another tube between the second hole and the full
carboy you wish to rack. Voila! With a decent water pressure you can
move gallons of wine without lifting any carboys. You can see how
introducing a filter system into the process can give you a vacuum
filter system Just let the vacuum draw the wine thru the filter into the
empty carboy.
Now the caveat. You must have a check valve in the tube between the side
opening and the empty carboy!!!! If for any reason the vacuum drops in
the system , the water passing thru the venturi will run into the empty
(probably now half-full of wine!!!) carboy and you will not be happy.
Trust the check valve and all will be fine. It saves time. effort and
you will get a double benefit of some degassing Check with your local
wine supply store who may have a kit with all you need . A powerfull
vacuum cleaner works well if you can step-down the tubes to fit your
bungs, but dont let the wife catch you!.
MnSRC
>copy cat you.
>Harry Demidavicius
Harry:
Place an orange carboy cap on the carboy of wine. Attach a one or two foot
length of tubing to one of the cap's holes. Don't let the tubing enter the
wine. Leave the other hole in the orange cap plugged. Attach the other end
of the tube to a one-way valve/bottle top in your wine preserver kit. The
tube should fit into the valve where the wine bottle neck is supposed to go.
If it doesn't, the "Sharper Image" sells a similar kit with valves that will
fit. I found that the type of tube typically used for racking (1/2"?) fits.
Now all you have to do is place the hand vacuum on the valve and pump, just
like you would a bottle of wine that you want to preserve. The process creates
a pretty good vacuum, so watch for foam!
I hope that these instructions are clear. Let me know how it goes!
Salud,
Martin J. Crane
Ross Reid
>I don't know if this ages the wine...but it sure does remove the gas.
>Vacuum pumps are used at the on-premise-wine-making facility where I work.
(Snip)
>I don't personally know any home winemakers who do this in their house.
(More snip)
Greetings,
I saw no follow-ups to this message on my flakey news server but, did
find some on the new DejaNews from Hell, including one from Don B. and
another by E&/orM W.
I too, have been using vacuum to degas, transfer and sometimes filter
both wine and beer.
I happened to mention this in a post to the Home Brew Digest and
received several warnings from some impressively credentialed
gentlemen. These warnings were posted to the HBD as well a being sent
to me by private email.
All were warnings about the very real danger of implosion when pulling
any amount of vacuum on a glass carboy not specifically designed for
that application.
Here are a few excerpts and I'm sure the authors won't mind my posting
portions of private email in the interest of safety.
<Begin Quotes>
"My advice to you Ross is to get yourself a small pump to
accomplish this job. For a modest amount of money you can
virtually eliminate all risk from this process. If you wish to
continue using your vacuum pump here are a few things you
should keep in mind.
The energy released by an empty 20 litre carboy
(roughly five gallons) failing under these circumstances is 311 J. To
put this in perspective this is the energy that would be released if
you dropped a full carboy from a height of about 1.5m (chest height)
to the floor. Compare this to the energy released upon failure of a
20 litre carboy holding 16 litres of beer at 28.5", which is 324J".
Two replies went on to advise that if I continued to use vacuum that
the least precaution taken should be an implosion shield around the
carboy.
"An implosion shield could be made out of a small metal trash can or a
heavy duty plastic trash can or bucket.
In order for an implosion shield to be effective it needs to be used.
I would recommend that Ross make a habit of NEVER PUTTING HIS CARBOY
UNDER VACUUM WITHOUT THE SHIELD IN PLACE".
<End Quotes>
I also sent email (3 actually) to the company selling the vacuum
degassing system Jeff spoke of, requesting information on the amount
of vacuum their system placed on a carboy but, it appears they are not
about to divulge this information as I received no answer.
Anyone wanting more information on the possibility of carboy implosion
under vacuum can check back issues of the HBD, http://hbd.org by
searching on "Non Alcoholic Beer by Vacuum Evaporation" and/or
"Implosive Carboys".
Cheers,
Ross.
Robert S Wallace
E&/orM Wesson <ewe...@ultranet.ca> wrote:
>I have always used vacuum to transfer and filter my wines. I normally
>use the 54 liter (12 gal) demi-johns to make my wines and they are
>simply too heavy to lift for gravity racking.
Use of a magnetically-coupled chemical transfer pump would be more
desirable than any vacuum system. While a bit more expensive perhaps, it
will be infinately safer - read on...
>I found a Venturi apparatus to attach to my fawcett to create the
>vacuum. I think they were mass-produced during the water bed craze when
>a simple method was needed to evacuate the bladder. Water passes thru
>the venturi opening creating a vacuum in a side opening. If you make TWO
>holes in a bung and insert it in an empty carboy, connect the tube at
>the side opening into one hole of the empty carboy (creating a vacuum in
>the carboy) and another tube between the second hole and the full
>carboy you wish to rack. Voila! With a decent water pressure you can
>move gallons of wine without lifting any carboys. You can see how
>introducing a filter system into the process can give you a vacuum
>filter system Just let the vacuum draw the wine thru the filter into the
>empty carboy.
>
>Now the caveat. You must have a check valve in the tube between the side
>opening and the empty carboy!!!! If for any reason the vacuum drops in
>the system , the water passing thru the venturi will run into the empty
>(probably now half-full of wine!!!) carboy and you will not be happy.
What will make you even less happy than ruining your wine is if the
receiving carboy implodes and you have not only wasted wine but shards of
glass everwhere, perhaps even embedded in walls, floor/rugs or worse,
skin/eyes.
Carboys are NOT designed to operate under vacuum. Should your
vacuum apparatus develop more negative pressure than the physical structure
of the carboy can bear (particularly if it is scratched), you can implode
one. I have seen this happen myself in a research laboratory. Fortunatel;y
the implosion ocurred while the carboy was on the floor and everyone in the
lab near the glass vessel was wearing jeans - the glass shards only got
stuck in the denim an not anyone's legs. The lab benches protected everyone
from upward flying shards. Except for the neck and part of the bottom,
there was precious little actual "bottle" left. I would NOT
advocate applying vacuum of any appreciable strength to a carboy, period.
This subject has been discussed ad nauseum in the homebrewing (beer)
newsgroups, with similar experiences and warnings. Using a partial vacuum
to begin gravity/siphon racking has been used extensively, and quite
safely for many, many years. Pulling too much vacuum deliberately or
accidentally can have diasterous results. Be careful; wear eye protection
if attempting, and be sure your insurance premium is paid.
>Trust the check valve and all will be fine. It saves time. effort and
>you will get a double benefit of some degassing Check with your local
>wine supply store who may have a kit with all you need . A powerfull
>vacuum cleaner works well if you can step-down the tubes to fit your
>bungs, but dont let the wife catch you!.
...or your local EMS/paramedic..... I don't think this is a safe
practice - carboys are not vacuum rated!! Caveat vintnor!!
Ferment safely,
(Prof.) Rob Wallace
--
Robert S. Wallace
Associate Professor of Botany "In cerevisia veritas est."
Dept. of Botany - Iowa State Univ.
Ames, Iowa 50011-1020 rwal...@iastate.edu FAX: 515-294-1337
+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_ooo000ooo_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+
Invdrf
>What will make you even less happy than ruining your wine is if the
>receiving carboy implodes and you have not only wasted wine but shards of
>glass everwhere, perhaps even embedded in walls, floor/rugs or worse,
>skin/eyes.
>
> Carboys are NOT designed to operate under vacuum. Should your
>vacuum apparatus develop more negative pressure than the physical structure
>of the carboy can bear (particularly if it is scratched), you can implode
>one. I have seen this happen myself in a research laboratory. Fortunatel;y
>the implosion ocurred while the carboy was on the floor and everyone in the
>lab near the glass vessel was wearing jeans - the glass shards only got
>stuck in the denim an not anyone's legs. The lab benches protected everyone
>from upward flying shards. Except for the neck and part of the bottom,
>there was precious little actual "bottle" left. I would NOT
>advocate applying vacuum of any appreciable strength to a carboy, period.
>This subject has been discussed ad nauseum in the homebrewing (beer)
>newsgroups, with similar experiences and warnings. Using a partial vacuum
>to begin gravity/siphon racking has been used extensively, and quite
>safely for many, many years. Pulling too much vacuum deliberately or
>accidentally can have diasterous results. Be careful; wear eye protection
>if attempting, and be sure your insurance premium is paid.
Is it possible to get into trouble by creating a vacuum using only a cap and a
radical drop in temperture to make the wine contract?
Kent J.
When a man stops learning, he starts dying
vinife...@my-deja.com
"David Gravel" <dbgr...@sprint.ca> wrote:
> A friend told me that using a vacuum pump, you can assist the
aging
> process of wine by sucking out O2 and residual CO2. Anyone else hear
this?
> I never did let him get at my carboy full of Cabernet Sauvignon for
fear of
> him ruining it.
>
carboy. (Of course nobody else ever lets a batch get away but me). The
results are not complete, but there does seem to be a reduction in VA
and after re-SO2ing the wine and bottle aging there is an improvement.
No measurements were made. Everyting was subjective.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Gorak
Brian Cochran <kd...@acay.com.au> a écrit dans le message :
3759c...@stargate.acay.com.au...
> I notice that no one else has responded so I am posting because I have
heard
> that this is a very dangerous practice to perform on a glass carboy. From
> what has been posted previous on this group I gather the carboys can
implode
I don't use that technique myself, but I can tell that the carboy cannot
implode if it is full to the neck. I wouldn't do that on a partially empty
carboy however.
Gorak
Brian Cochran
<vinife...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7j3fp3$l19$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <v%7Z2.1467$r_1.1...@newscontent-02.sprint.ca>,
> "David Gravel" <dbgr...@sprint.ca> wrote:
> > A friend told me that using a vacuum pump, you can assist the
> aging
> > process of wine by sucking out O2 and residual CO2. Anyone else hear
> this?
> > I never did let him get at my carboy full of Cabernet Sauvignon for
> fear of
> > him ruining it.
I notice that no one else has responded so I am posting because I have heard
that this is a very dangerous practice to perform on a glass carboy. From
what has been posted previous on this group I gather the carboys can implode
and do you some really serious damage.
Brian
Harry A. Demidavicius
>
>Brian Cochran <kd...@acay.com.au> a écrit dans le message :
>3759c...@stargate.acay.com.au...
>
>> I notice that no one else has responded so I am posting because I have
>heard
>> that this is a very dangerous practice to perform on a glass carboy. From
>> what has been posted previous on this group I gather the carboys can
>implode
>
>I don't use that technique myself, but I can tell that the carboy cannot
>implode if it is full to the neck. I wouldn't do that on a partially empty
>carboy however.
>
>Gorak
>
I remember the previous post, because I had asked the question. I
agree w. Gorak - also those orange thingies at the neck would likely
break down the vacuum 'waay before compromising the integrity of even
an empty carboy.
HArry Demidavicius