wine kit - using less water ?
Steve
Hello everyone,
My last 3 batches of wine, made from these wine kits, all went bad. From
what I can tell it was due to the fact that I used less water when
hydrating the kit and this caused the wine to oxidize prematurely. 2 of
the times it was done at a local brew shop so I suspected they were
doing something wrong until I did it myself and I believe what I just
bottled shows some slight oxidization. Besides not adding the full
amount of water, I followed all the steps to the letter. I was informed
by many that the extra CO2 in the tank should prevent oxidization but it
looks like it is not a guarantee and certainly didn't help in my last
3/4 attempts. So my main question is how can I succeed at only hydrating
the kits partially. It seems that it is hard to come by a carboy in the
right size, 4 or 4.5 gallon size would be perfect but I'm not sure they
make them. Is there anything else I can put in the tank to displace the
air? Surely someone must have some recommendations?
Thanks very much
Steve
Tom
Give us some more info.
Which Kits? Starting and Ending gravity. Timelines, etc.
What exactly is "bad"? Taste? Color? Smell?
You say oxidation, it may be something else, if your wine is a red you can
even see if it really oxidation.
Why reduce the water?
How long was it bottled before you determined it was "bad"?
Don't want this to sound wrong, but someone or something is screwing up.
Most kits are bullet proof, you can't screw them up unless you try. In fact
they are over engineered if you ask most of the wine makers on this ng. For
example wine fermented to complete dryness does not need the addition of
sorbate. Yet kits have you dump in sorbate anyway. But I digress.
I have done over 15 Brew King kits (Selections, International and Special
Editions) I have tossed only one due to my stupid mistake. Now kits are old
hat and I use them just to fill out my wine closet. I got my neighbor into
winemaking last year and he has nearly a dozen without a failure.
Select a premium kit. The adage you get what you pay for is in effect here.
Follow the recipe (in this case directions). Exactly, don't change anything
until you get a few kits under your belt.
Clean, Clean and Clean somemore everything that touches your wine. Then
sanitize it. I suggest Idohphor its easy, quick and has no residual affect
on your wine.
The process with kits leave little to go wrong, much of the error is taken
out by the kit manufactors. You already have clean, balanced juice which
is half the battle for normal wine makers.
Your concern about head space is appropriate after the initial fermentaion.
I use standard 6 1/2 gallon carboys initially, then rack to a smaller 5
gallon for bulk aging. (This is the about only thing I do now that isn't in
the kit directions) If I have any extra I will seal in 1 liter pop and
squeeze out the air. (wish you could do that with a carboy!) I also use
the pop bottle trick with my lees and can usually get a bit more wine from
the batch after the lees settle. This NG taught me that trick. Store in
cool area with little or no temperature swings if you can.
One other thing Steve, give it some time. The biggest thing I've noticed is
that although drinkable in 30 days. (which is what the kit makers say)
These wines improve 100% after 3-5 months in the bottle. In this day and
age of immediate gratification the idea of wine in 30 days sounds great and
thats how they are pitched. How many potential kit buyer would be put off
if the kits say make your own wine in 6 months!
These comments are rather general I know, with more info may we can help you
isolate the process or item thats causing the problem.
Tom
"Steve" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3D57D2B0...@nowhere.com...
Steve
Thanks for the response.
A little more info for you, at least what I have. The kits were from Vineyards
Choice and I didn't take the before and after SG. You will have to trust me when
I say oxidized as I am pretty sure. The last one I tasted after the last rack 2
weeks ago and it was superb. Quite a bit of residual sugar and it was pleasant
to drink. This was about 3.5 weeks after I started it and it showed no signs of
problems. When I bottled it last week I was not impressed and although I know it
would be difficult to tell exactly what is wrong with it I believe quite
strongly that it is starting to oxidize. The last one had exactly the same
qualities and it was diagnosed as being oxidized 1 month after bottling.
More below,
Tom wrote:
> Steve,
>
> Give us some more info.
>
> Which Kits? Starting and Ending gravity. Timelines, etc.
>
> What exactly is "bad"? Taste? Color? Smell?
Taste yes, Color seems ok but I feel it's off slightly as well. Smell I haven't
noticed.
>
> You say oxidation, it may be something else, if your wine is a red you can
> even see if it really oxidation.
>
> Why reduce the water?
>
Reducing the water makes a much nicer wine, the difference between a good and a
great wine. For starters, less water gives you the ability to have a higher
alcohol content :-)) and also more residual sugar gives it a better taste when
done.
Usually ice wine style wines are made by reducing the water even more and rarely
have these problems..... Usually the CO2 keeps it from oxidizing.
>
> How long was it bottled before you determined it was "bad"?
>
The very first one took one month but at bottling time it was superb. The second
was immediate and the last I think has the makings of it when I bottled it as
well.
>
> Don't want this to sound wrong, but someone or something is screwing up.
> Most kits are bullet proof, you can't screw them up unless you try. In fact
> they are over engineered if you ask most of the wine makers on this ng. For
> example wine fermented to complete dryness does not need the addition of
> sorbate. Yet kits have you dump in sorbate anyway. But I digress.
>
Agreed.
>
> I have done over 15 Brew King kits (Selections, International and Special
> Editions) I have tossed only one due to my stupid mistake. Now kits are old
> hat and I use them just to fill out my wine closet. I got my neighbor into
> winemaking last year and he has nearly a dozen without a failure.
>
> Select a premium kit. The adage you get what you pay for is in effect here.
2 of the kits I used were premium. I have made wine this way many times
before.... Even twice by using less water and had excellent results. If you were
close by I'd let you try some :-)
>
> Follow the recipe (in this case directions). Exactly, don't change anything
> until you get a few kits under your belt.
> Clean, Clean and Clean somemore everything that touches your wine. Then
> sanitize it. I suggest Idohphor its easy, quick and has no residual affect
> on your wine.
>
Well we can rule out bacteria on this one.
>
> The process with kits leave little to go wrong, much of the error is taken
> out by the kit manufactors. You already have clean, balanced juice which
> is half the battle for normal wine makers.
>
> Your concern about head space is appropriate after the initial fermentaion.
> I use standard 6 1/2 gallon carboys initially, then rack to a smaller 5
> gallon for bulk aging. (This is the about only thing I do now that isn't in
> the kit directions) If I have any extra I will seal in 1 liter pop and
> squeeze out the air. (wish you could do that with a carboy!)
Yes that would be nice..... Maybe one of those better wine pumps could be used
to pump out any of the extra air...... Hum, worth a thought.......
> I also use
> the pop bottle trick with my lees and can usually get a bit more wine from
> the batch after the lees settle. This NG taught me that trick. Store in
> cool area with little or no temperature swings if you can.
>
> One other thing Steve, give it some time. The biggest thing I've noticed is
> that although drinkable in 30 days. (which is what the kit makers say)
> These wines improve 100% after 3-5 months in the bottle. In this day and
> age of immediate gratification the idea of wine in 30 days sounds great and
> thats how they are pitched. How many potential kit buyer would be put off
> if the kits say make your own wine in 6 months!
>
> These comments are rather general I know, with more info may we can help you
> isolate the process or item thats causing the problem.
>
Thanks, Steve
Tom
Question: Which kits have given you the problem?
I have many thoughts here let me see if I can organize them in some fashion.
First. Get a hydrometer. Or use it Not knowing SG at start can lead to all
sorts of issues. Especially when you get off the directions.
You don't say which yeasts your kits use but many cannot take a concentrated
Brix level. No wine yeast grows well in a high sugar environment, without
the addition of nutrients. Even EC-1118, K1V-1116 and ICV-71B which are
ideal for ice wines and late harvests need the extra nutrients to do the job
well. You might be creating some of your own problems here by reducing the
water. But yet you say you've done it before with no problems....
Myth: Reducing the water increases the alcohol. Not true. Alcohol is the
created when the yeast converts sugar. Reducing the water does nothing but
make a harsher environment for your yeast. You only get more alcohol when
you add more sugar during or before the fermentation process. BTW if you do
this add gradually after a vigorous fermentation is started (every few
days). Eventually though you take it too far, common yeasts have a toxicity
level of 13-15% alcohol. It takes a very alcohol tolerant yeast strain to
get higher. Jacks pages on yeast strains is quite helpful
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/strains.asp What you do get by reducing
water migh be a bit more concentration of fruit flavors and aroma though.
Most kits are made to ferment dry...Are you trying to stop a fermentation
early to get that residual sweetness? If I want semi-sweet (which my wife
prefers) I withhold some juice and after fermenting to dryness add my
sorbate and sulphite then sweeten to taste. I've never tasted a 22 day old
wine that is superb.
What do you use to bottle your wine? Are you using any pumps or just
syphoning? There have been a number of posts from people in the NG about
oxidation, foaming and general problems with some pumps. Minimize any rough
handling after fermentation is complete. Thats when oxygen is your enemy.
How is it stored? How is it corked?
Lets keep going here maybe we can find the culprit. Hopefully Jack or Lum
will hope on this post soon. They are about the best their is!
Tom
Richard Kovach
I've done a couple of mid-priced kits by leaving them overly
concentrated, and also several premium and "ultra-premium" kits (full
volume). My experience echoes Tom's in that your better value is to
buy the best kits because they are concentrated enough (provided you
don't lose too much racking).
When I did concentrate kits, I tried filling the head space with
"Private Preserve" gas that is sold as a wine preserver for saving
half-bottles of wine for a few extra days. It's a mix of nitrogen,
CO2 and argon. It seemed to work for me, although I was only bulk
storing for a few weeks. And it's not exactly cheap. In the future,
I would be more inclined to follow others' suggestions on this
newsgroup and acquire a lot of glass marbles to put in the carboy to
displace the air.
I'm curious what your total time has been on these kits (you didn't
give the whole timeline nor the total aging time). My experience is
that the "better" (more expensive) the kit, the more it seems to vary
in overall quality during the first year of aging. The mid-price kits
seem to reach their best after 6-9 months, and don't really vary much
along the way. The ultra-premium kits seem like completely different
wines every couple of months until at least 9 to 12 months when they
seem to settle down and really start to show their true character.
More than once I thought I had a serious problem occur, and all it
needed was time.
In general, I do not recommend making kits with significantly less
water than recommended. The only time I would do it is if I want to
make a batch to be consumed quite young (i.e. something to consume
while the "good stuff" is aging) -- in that case I would buy a
mid-price kit because they seem to be more predictable early on. I
might leave it a little extra concentrated, but not much. And I would
use a better yeast -- I find Pasteur Red to be greatly preferable
compared to the normal bayanus-strain yeast provided in the kits,
particularly for wines to be consumed early (but you have to watch
your temperature range a lot more closely).
BTW, these are all reds I talk about -- I don't have much experience
with whites.
Cheers,
Richard
Dave Gimbel
numbers are year, next 2 numbers are month, nest 2 are date, next 2 are
tine on a 24 hour clock. VC has not been made for a long time i suspect
the kits are old.
Steve
Hi Dave,
The code is 2002 04 15 so it looks like it is a new kit so this should not be
the problem.....
Steve
Tom
"Dave Gimbel" <david....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3D590F04...@sympatico.ca...
Steve
Tom wrote:
> I've cut the previous replies as this was getting a bit long.
>
Ok, great. Appreciated.
>
> Question: Which kits have given you the problem?
>
I believe all the kits were from Vineyards Choice and I can't comment on the
date codes on the first 2 but this one was packaged in April of this year .
>
> I have many thoughts here let me see if I can organize them in some fashion.
>
> First. Get a hydrometer. Or use it Not knowing SG at start can lead to all
> sorts of issues. Especially when you get off the directions.
>
Well I have one, just I didn't use it...... :-(
>
> You don't say which yeasts your kits use but many cannot take a concentrated
> Brix level. No wine yeast grows well in a high sugar environment, without
> the addition of nutrients. Even EC-1118, K1V-1116 and ICV-71B which are
> ideal for ice wines and late harvests need the extra nutrients to do the job
> well. You might be creating some of your own problems here by reducing the
> water. But yet you say you've done it before with no problems....
>
There was a nutrient package which got added but I'm not sure which yeast was
supplied with the package as it was thrown out afterward.
>
> Myth: Reducing the water increases the alcohol. Not true. Alcohol is the
> created when the yeast converts sugar.
But doesn't decreasing the water have the same effect as increasing the sugar,
thus the yeast has an equivalent of more sugar to convert, thus producing more
alcohol per volume?
> Reducing the water does nothing but
> make a harsher environment for your yeast.
Perhaps it is harsher for the yeast yes.
> You only get more alcohol when
> you add more sugar during or before the fermentation process.
But adding less water is lilke adding more sugar no? Sure the total volume is
lower but it has a much higher percentage of sugar content.... True the yeast
will not convert all the sugar to alcohol and there will be residual sugar no
matter what.... Unless it is a high grade yeast like you said .... But most of
the yeasts should take 15% or slightly higher?
> BTW if you do
> this add gradually after a vigorous fermentation is started (every few
> days). Eventually though you take it too far, common yeasts have a toxicity
> level of 13-15% alcohol. It takes a very alcohol tolerant yeast strain to
> get higher. Jacks pages on yeast strains is quite helpful
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/strains.asp What you do get by reducing
> water migh be a bit more concentration of fruit flavors and aroma though.
>
Great I will look it over.
| Most kits are made to ferment dry...Are you trying to stop a fermentation
> early to get that residual sweetness? If I want semi-sweet (which my wife
> prefers) I withhold some juice and after fermenting to dryness add my
> sorbate and sulphite then sweeten to taste. I've never tasted a 22 day old
> wine that is superb.
>
Usually I let it stop on it's own. Like you said, the yeast dies off when it
gets higher alcohol content.
>
> What do you use to bottle your wine? Are you using any pumps or just
> syphoning?
Just syphoning.....
> There have been a number of posts from people in the NG about
> oxidation, foaming and general problems with some pumps. Minimize any rough
> handling after fermentation is complete. Thats when oxygen is your enemy.
> How is it stored? How is it corked?
>
Simple hand corker. But the wine seemed slightly spoiled to be at the time of
bottling.
>
> Lets keep going here maybe we can find the culprit. Hopefully Jack or Lum
> will hope on this post soon. They are about the best their is!
>
Well, great. I am learning some things here.....
Richard mentioned something I also thought of yesterday and that was using glass
marbles to fill up the extra space in the carboy . I think this is a great idea
and plan to try it.
Also yes, perhaps I should be using a better yeast./
Steve
>
> Tom
Tom
1. Use the hydrometer next time! :-)
2. Have never seen a kit yet with a Nutrient package. But have never done
a VC Anyone else seen this?
3. Regarding sugar/water issue. Visually think of this. 1 cup of sugar in
a pint of water. 1 cup of sugar in a gallon of water 1 cup of sugar in 5
gallons of water. How much sugar do we have in each case. Still only one
cup. Changing the amount of water has no affect on the amount of sugar
available in our solution.
That means that their is still a fixed amount of sugar for the yeast to feed
on. The only change is the dilution factor. The dilution factor is really
the "environment" that the yeast lives in. We measure this by SG.
(Specific Gravity)
Thats why when you first start a wine you adjust the SG reading to approx
1.080-1.090 SG for normal wines. Which is PA of around 2% (PA = potential
alcohol) This is a very friendly SG level for yeasts. Higher Brix levels
makes it harder for the yeast to start. Lower will work but your potential
alcohol is much lower as well. See where the hydrometer comes in? BTW my
hydrometer is a 3 way. Shows SG, Brix and PA. Fairly common now.
What are you using for a primary fermentor? What are you using for a
secondary fermentor? Are you using airlocks during primary and secondary?
Headspace..... I used marbles for a short while. Those damn carboys are
heavy enough, but try adding 700+ marbles! No way. It is actually cheaper
(well not for me since I bought the marbles, dang expensive) to buy a
smaller set of carboys. 5 gal, 3 gal, 1 gal. and use as needed. Gave all
the marbles to my kid.
I know we haven't solved the issue but hopefully you have a little more
information to work with.
Tom
"Steve" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3D59500E...@nowhere.com...
shamu
trying to achieve.
In that case you get a wine that is not of correct acidity and tastes
"different"
Ron
"Richard Kovach" <rko...@popmail.com> wrote in message
news:d5715781.0208...@posting.google.com...
Tom
"Tom" <year...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uliuusg...@corp.supernews.com...
Michael G.
wrote:
[...]
>Headspace..... I used marbles for a short while. Those damn carboys are
>heavy enough, but try adding 700+ marbles! No way. It is actually cheaper
>(well not for me since I bought the marbles, dang expensive) to buy a
>smaller set of carboys. 5 gal, 3 gal, 1 gal. and use as needed. Gave all
>the marbles to my kid.
Well, the trick is to move to smaller carboys once you add a certain
amount of marbles. I mean, if you need to add enough marbles to
displace a gallon's worth of liquid, you'll be adding an awful lot of
marbles. Clearly you should have used a 3-gallon carboy and a 1-gallon
carboy (and probably some time ago). For a small amount of head space,
though, marbles work just fine.
Steve
Hi Tom and others,
Tom wrote:
> Well....
>
> 1. Use the hydrometer next time! :-)
>
Ok will do.
>
> 2. Have never seen a kit yet with a Nutrient package. But have never done
> a VC Anyone else seen this?
>
>
> 3. Regarding sugar/water issue. Visually think of this. 1 cup of sugar in
> a pint of water. 1 cup of sugar in a gallon of water 1 cup of sugar in 5
> gallons of water. How much sugar do we have in each case. Still only one
> cup. Changing the amount of water has no affect on the amount of sugar
> available in our solution.
>
> That means that their is still a fixed amount of sugar for the yeast to feed
> on. The only change is the dilution factor. The dilution factor is really
> the "environment" that the yeast lives in. We measure this by SG.
> (Specific Gravity)
>
But doesn't the dilution factor also determine the % of alcohol? If you are
comparing 1 oz of finished wine using both methods then I would say that the
one that had the less water would likely have a higher alcoholic content. That
is, assuming the yeast could handle it ? Same thing if you take a 2 beers and
with one of them put in 50% water, but if you only drink 1 oz of each which one
will have the more alcohol ? The one without the water? Am I missing something?
Is this a mental block I'm having ? ;-)
>
> Thats why when you first start a wine you adjust the SG reading to approx
> 1.080-1.090 SG for normal wines. Which is PA of around 2% (PA = potential
> alcohol) This is a very friendly SG level for yeasts. Higher Brix levels
> makes it harder for the yeast to start. Lower will work but your potential
> alcohol is much lower as well.
Ah!!!! I think this is what I am trying to say.....
> See where the hydrometer comes in? BTW my
> hydrometer is a 3 way. Shows SG, Brix and PA. Fairly common now.
>
Mine is a cheaper model so I will have to upgrade.
>
> What are you using for a primary fermentor? What are you using for a
> secondary fermentor? Are you using airlocks during primary and secondary?
>
I believe they were using plastic pails at the brew place... .I used 1 gallon
glass containers for both primary and seconday.... (Yes I had 5 of them) :-O and
instead of an airlock (They don't seem to stay put in the glass carboys) I used
some plastic wrap and used an elastic band to secure it. Should work right ?
>
> Headspace..... I used marbles for a short while. Those damn carboys are
> heavy enough, but try adding 700+ marbles! No way. It is actually cheaper
> (well not for me since I bought the marbles, dang expensive) to buy a
> smaller set of carboys. 5 gal, 3 gal, 1 gal. and use as needed. Gave all
> the marbles to my kid.
>
Yup, I gotta get a 3 gal container.
>
> I know we haven't solved the issue but hopefully you have a little more
> information to work with.
>
> Tom
>
Ok, great. Hopefully you are still out there Tom :-)
Steve
Tom
all 5 independant batches went bad?!
Everytime you post you give us a little more, this is like pulling teeth!
:-)
Steve, you gotta do this right.
First, kits are a blended concentrate in most cases. Even the "100%" juice
ones. (Water is evaporated to concentrate the juice, make the kits a bit
smaller and lighter to ship,) Normally you have to add water back to get the
SG to the proper point for fermentation.
I doubt in any way shape or form you managed to get a proper level 5 times
by splitting a kit to 5 carboys. Also, I am making an assumption here but
if its anything like a Brew King kit I would get 5 gallons of juice to which
I normally add around 1.5 to 2 gallons of water to get to a proper SG. I've
never taken the SG without the water but would expect that it would be
entirely to high to start most fermentations.
Regarding airlocks. During a primary you can probably get away with the
plastic wrap as the seal would not be tight and CO2 creates a postive
pressure inside the carboys keeping the baddies out. But from the secondary
on you can't depend on that and need to get bungs and airlocks. After my
secondary is complete I then stopper up completely for bulk aging.
I'll say this only one more time. You will get X amount of alcohol from X
amount of sugar. Changing the amount of water does not change X. But what
it does is alter the environment. Reducing the water may help increase
fruit flavors and aromas. But reduce it too much and you've created a
hostile environment for your fermentation. Likewise, too much water and
your wine will taste weak, look dull and have little aroma.
You need to rethink your processes and assumptions. You seem to want to
make wine (enough that you've kept trying after the failures) but if you
refuse to change your processes it looks like they will continue to fail.
(At least most of the time)
Get yourself a 6 gallon and a 5 gallon carboy (you have the ones in case!)
a bung, airlock and sanitizer. And follow the directions COMPLETELY.
Good Luck!
Tom
Steve
Thanks for the note and for having patience with me.
Tom wrote:
> 5 1 gallon carboys for primary and secondary? So you split a kit up? And
> all 5 independant batches went bad?!
>
Yes i split up the batches to try some different oak chips to see how they
would do and this was the best way to do a comparison. There was a fair bit of
air space in each one after I racked and disgarded the lees each time.... Also
the point you made later on about the rubber bands being not tight enough for
the secondary and aging is noted ! Good point ! But those dang airlocks keep
popping out on me in the glass carboys ! Is there a way to make them stay in ?
I finished a chardonnay 3 weeks ago using the same method and it came out fine !
some of the best stuff I have had and it does seem like it has a higher alcohol
content.... I drink one glass and I'm flying ! I'm trying to understand your
comments about the alcohol content..... But this is obviously some problem I'm
having here because it's not clicking. Sorry. I understand that the alcohol in
the whole container is the same but not when we are comparing say one ounce of
the wine from one batch to the next.... I guess I'm missing something maybe....
Not sure....
>
> Everytime you post you give us a little more, this is like pulling teeth!
> :-)
>
yes I'm good at that right... Sorry it was not my intent to have you pull teeth,
rather I did not want to give you too much information that was not relevant....
Now I can see that all of it is relevant.
>
> Steve, you gotta do this right.
>
> First, kits are a blended concentrate in most cases. Even the "100%" juice
> ones. (Water is evaporated to concentrate the juice, make the kits a bit
> smaller and lighter to ship,) Normally you have to add water back to get the
> SG to the proper point for fermentation.
>
> I doubt in any way shape or form you managed to get a proper level 5 times
> by splitting a kit to 5 carboys.
Well the kit was mixed with water in a plastic carboy then put into the 5
1-gallon containers.
> Also, I am making an assumption here but
> if its anything like a Brew King kit I would get 5 gallons of juice to which
> I normally add around 1.5 to 2 gallons of water to get to a proper SG. I've
> never taken the SG without the water but would expect that it would be
> entirely to high to start most fermentations.
>
Well I can tell you, and I said this previously, at the last time I racked the
wine, (it was a view chateau du roi ?)
it was very fine. So whatever went wrong , went wrong in the last 1 to 2 weeks
and I suspect it was that air got in.... The fermentation went fine! And it
tasted great! Maybe air got in through the rubber band but I thought I had it
tight enough..... It was looser on the chardonnay and there was no problem with
that. So why it worked on the chardonnay and not on the view chateau is a
mystery. And if you were close I would give you some of the chardonnay to try.
It has quite a kick to it and that is why I can't belive that it has the same
alcohol content as if I hadn't reduced the water.... So it's an observation not
scientific because on a molecular basis I'm not sure what is going on exactly.
But I trust what my taste is telling me.....
>
> Regarding airlocks. During a primary you can probably get away with the
> plastic wrap as the seal would not be tight and CO2 creates a postive
> pressure inside the carboys keeping the baddies out. But from the secondary
> on you can't depend on that and need to get bungs and airlocks. After my
> secondary is complete I then stopper up completely for bulk aging.
>
> I'll say this only one more time. You will get X amount of alcohol from X
> amount of sugar. Changing the amount of water does not change X. But what
> it does is alter the environment. Reducing the water may help increase
> fruit flavors and aromas. But reduce it too much and you've created a
> hostile environment for your fermentation. Likewise, too much water and
> your wine will taste weak, look dull and have little aroma.
So you are saying it will taste weak but not because there is less alcohol? Ok,
I better give this one up ;-)
>
>
> You need to rethink your processes and assumptions. You seem to want to
> make wine (enough that you've kept trying after the failures) but if you
> refuse to change your processes it looks like they will continue to fail.
> (At least most of the time)
>
Agreed that I have to make some changes ! Obviously. But I know that when I do
make wine this way and when it succeeds it is some of the best stuff I have ever
tasted ! I put one I made in April (also a view chatuea) against a medium priced
Beringer and there was no comparison so I was told. So obviously I am doing
something right.... I just can't produce the results consistently..... And that
is the part that is the shame.
>
> Get yourself a 6 gallon and a 5 gallon carboy (you have the ones in case!)
> a bung, airlock and sanitizer. And follow the directions COMPLETELY.
>
I have them.... I will get a 3 gallon also.
And Thanks for trying to explain some of this stuff to me.... Obviously I have a
thick skull for some things and I am not managing to grasp some things easily.
What about my beer dilution comments? I guess it didn't make sense?
Steve
>
> Good Luck!
>
> Tom
Steve
Well.... Not bad :-)
And the wine from each of the 5 gallon containers is different ! I noticed that
2 of them last week when I bottled really didn't taste "right" to me and it was
only my observation that there were signs of oxidation. They went from being on
the sweet side to being ..... How can I describe dark and heavy...... A couple
of them in fact seemed "good" but I still felt that there could be some
oxidization that had taken place.... I guess the only way to really find out is
to wait and see right?
I'm drinking one of them now and ..... And well, this one seems ok to me :-) :-)
But not sure if this was from one of the better gallon containers or not.....
Also this stuff is unfiltered. :-)
Steve
Tom
bottling. I may snitch a bit during the fermenting process. But there is
significant changes in the bottle as the wine gets a chance to rest and
recover from the processes. I've seen some people on this NG refer to it as
bottle shock.
If you just can't do that please set aside 2-3 bottles and open them this
time next year. My Cab/Shiraz blend took almost a year to mellow out.
RE: Airlocks, never had them pop out. They make many different sizes of
bungs. Possible that you have one slightly too small?
Tom
"Steve" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3D5AAF91...@nowhere.com...
Rick Vanderwal
using plastic wrap doesn't ensure a good seal and adequate protection
against
the nasties that are in the air, let alone prevent exposing the wine to too
much oxygen
Rick
"Steve" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3D5A82D9...@nowhere.com...
Steve
Hi Tom,
Ok I'll try to let it sit for awhile. not sure what the problem is with the air
locks.... They never have worked well for me and every time I try them they
either pop out or sink into the carboy..... I'll try to get this figured out....
If it works for you, it should work for me too .
Thanks again for all your comments.
Cheers
Steve
Guy
Steve wrote:
> not sure what the problem is with the air locks.... They never have
worked well for me and every time I try them they either pop out or
sink into the carboy.
You probably mean the rubber bung pops out (when it or the carboy
opening is wet. In that case, get a one with 1/2 size smaller. Get a
number 6.6 rather than a number 7 bung.
If Tom means that adding half the required water in a kit produces a
wine with the same % of alcohol, then adding twice as much water than
required should also produce a wine with the same % of alcohol. How
about that, making 40 L from a 6-l kit rather than 23 L for the same %
of alcohol and at the same price!
Guy
Steve
Hi Guy,
Thanks for the suggestion on the bung... Yes I did mean the bung where it
meets the carboy. Good idea and Thanks.
Your comment about the alcohol % is a good one but maybe there is
something we are missing.... But I believe my observations are correct and
I don't usually get drunk on one glass of wine but I do feel it more when
it I make it with less water. I thought the argument should be that
comparing the entire carboy's there is the same percentage, one is diluted
though. Glass to glass the concentrated batch should be more potent,
assuming the yeast ferments past 15%. This makes sense to me, but maybe
we are still missing something. Anybody still reaing this thread?
Steve
Tom
Alcohol by Volume......then I will bow to Steves logic. But if I'm making
wine and want a particularly higher % I would add a bit more of sugar or
grape juice for the yeast to feed on rather then reduce the amount of wine I
am making! Its the same amount of work, why make less!
From my previous post
Reducing the water may help increase fruit flavors and aromas. But reduce
it too much and you've created a
hostile environment for your fermentation. Likewise, too much water and
your wine will taste weak, look dull and have little aroma.
Folks, I'm off this thread! Adios!
"Guy" <gu...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:BFD69.21306$gY3.5...@weber.videotron.net...
Guy
>
> Your comment about the alcohol % is a good one but maybe there is
something we are
> missing.... But I believe my observations are correct and I don't
usually get drunk on one glass > of wine but I do feel it more when it
I make it with less water. I thought the argument should
> be that comparing the entire carboy's there is the same percentage,
one is diluted though.
> Glass to glass the concentrated batch should be more potent,
assuming the yeast ferments past
> 15%. This makes sense to me, but maybe we are still missing
something.
Steve,
50 ml of alcohol in one l of a liquid is 5% ABV. 100 ml in one l of
a liquid is 10% ABV.
If you add less water to a kit the Brix/SG/Potential alc will also go
higher resulting in a higher % AB, if the entire amount of sugar
contained fermenst completely.
The opposite (adding more water) will result in opposite result, lower
ABV.
Guy
frederick ploegman
> Folks, I'm off this thread! Adios!
>
Me too !!
Steve
Ok, this is all I was trying to say. Now I think *everyone* is in complete
agreement. Perhaps my initial working was a little off .....
And I'm off this thread too ;-)
Thanks everyone
Steve
Don S
> check the date code under the style of kit. Its on the sticker. First 2
> numbers are year, next 2 numbers are month, nest 2 are date, next 2 are
> tine on a 24 hour clock. VC has not been made for a long time i suspect
> the kits are old.
>
It would seem to me that a list of all kit manufacturers date codes and
locations is definitely worth something. Anyone have that info?
Don