Mold on cider
Cathy Boer
started 4 gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad and we had green mold
on top of the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by itself, no yeast or
other additives).
We ended up throwing it down the drain, but could we have saved the juice by
adding yeast???
Any comments/help would be appreciated. We're new at all this stuff!
Cathy
Joe Sallustio
Yes, you could have saved it. Mold usually takes several days to take
hold, if you would have used one packet of wine yeast the juice would
begin fermenting sooner and would have made the environment less
hospitable to mold.
Joe
doub...@hotmail.com
Bacterial spoilage can be corrected by adding sugar and re-fermenting.
I got this advice from a reputable winemaker. If wine has bacterial
spoilage either add it to next years batch or add sugar and referment.
Obviously the re-fermented batch will be stronger but it will be
drinkable. Use Champagne yeast if alcohol is already present. The
first time I used this advice was a couple days ago and it worked
great.
Bob
Paul E. Lehmann
> Kathy,
>
> Bacterial spoilage can be corrected by adding
> sugar and re-fermenting. I got this advice from
> a reputable winemaker. If wine has bacterial
> spoilage either add it to next years batch or
> add sugar and referment. Obviously the
> re-fermented batch will be stronger but it will
> be drinkable. Use Champagne yeast if alcohol is
> already present. The first time I used this
> advice was a couple days ago and it worked
> great.
>
> Bob
I do not think this is good advice. I suggest
Kathy not to take it.
A packet of wine yeast is NOT expensive.
doub...@hotmail.com
ferment. I'm saying that spoiled wine can be fixed. What is the worst
that can happen, pouring it down the drain anyway?
Bob
On Oct 25, 8:05 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" <some...@anywhere.com> wrote:
Paul E. Lehmann
> Why is it not good advice? I'm not saying she
> shouldn't add yeast to ferment. I'm saying that
> spoiled wine can be fixed. What is the worst
> that can happen, pouring it down the drain
> anyway?
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Oct 25, 8:05 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> <some...@anywhere.com> wrote:
In my opinion, adding sugar and yeasts will merely
cover up the problem and not cure it. It also
leads to or supports sloppy winemaking practices.
It is also possible to have the spoilage
organism(s) spread to other places in the
location in which the wine is being made.
These are merely my opinions and of course
everyone has their own and do what they think is
best or works for them.
frederick ploegman
it finds the "living conditions" it requires. Relatively stable,
relatively dry, and abundant oxygen. Had you stirred the juice/must
2 or 3 times a day, you would have disrupted these "living
conditions" long enough for the yeast to get started. Even when the
yeast gets going, you need to keep stiring once or twice a day
so long as there remains any solids or foam on the surface that
might dry out enough to let the mold get reestablished.
When you see advice about things like stiring, pump over, punch
down, etc., take heed. There are always reasons for the things
we do. HTH
Frederick
"Cathy Boer" <cb...@kadrea.com> wrote in message
news:Q97Ui.35368$G25.34609@edtnps89...
doub...@hotmail.com
candidates. Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into anyone who ever came
across mold or a bad smelling wine. On the contrary, there are no
known pathogens that exist in wine. It's the reason the Board of
Health exempts wineries from reqiurements of section 20C. Has anyone
on this board heard of anyone getting sick from bad wine? Anyone?
Frederick mentioned the push down of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed
those "toxins" down into the wine hundreds of times and didn't even
know it. Those toxins are always there. Even SO2 doesn't kill them.
SO2 puts them in suspended animation until the SO2 levels drop. Bleach
would kill them but then there really would be "toxins" in the wine.
How many "toxins" have people drunk in this world when the SO2 levels
of the wine they are drinking become low?? Just because you can't see
them doesn't mean they are not there and it's ironic that the cap
keeps getting pushed into the fermenting must to kill them. Maybe the
fermentation does do something. Imagine that.
Bob
On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur <floweryson...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It depends on how advanced the mold is. If you catch it fairly
> quickly and it's only on top, you can rack the must out from under the
> mold (leaving behind a couple of inches to make sure you don't carry
> the mold into the new fermenter) and pitch yeast. If it's been growing
> for a while toss it, as the mold produces toxins that will have spread
> throughout the must and cannot be easily removed.
>
> --
> I just forgot my whole philosophy of life!!!
doub...@hotmail.com
crush. Do you realize how much bird shit is on those grapes? How much
echoli bacteria is in the musts before the fermentaion? How do the two
Pauls deal with that? Oh, that's right, they pitch the yeast.
Bob
Paul E. Lehmann
> The two Paul's in this thread would make good
> Republican Presidential
> candidates.
I would have to change my party affiliation before
I did that ;)
> Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into
> anyone who ever came across mold or a bad
> smelling wine.
If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
wine police I am merely making suggestions.
> On the contrary, there are no
> known pathogens that exist in wine.
I don't believe the "cider" had enough sugar to
make "wine". The words were:
.."temp was bad and we had green mold on top of
the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
itself, no yeast or other additives)."
> It's the
> reason the Board of Health exempts wineries from
> reqiurements of section 20C. Has anyone on this
> board heard of anyone getting sick from bad
> wine? Anyone?
Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no. Of
course, to the best of my knowledge, I have never
drunk a low alcohol beverage that had green mold
growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
errr - beverage making ;)
Dave Allison
spelled it wrong)
Adding yeast would have helped. Possibly adding sugar, but it depends on
the S.G. With yeast so inexpensive, I would never let fruit or grapes
ferment on their own, though I realize that's the way they did it 2000
years ago, they also didn't have $.99 yeast packets available.
Some of the best grapes and fruit for making wine is over ripe, meaning
all kinds of mold and stuff is happening to them.
I also agree with several comments above about catching it quickly (not
4 months later) and racking out the top mold.
IMHO.
My apple cider wine was made two years ago and will be in the bottle
another year before it's close to ready. But it is promising!
I do appreciate learning from everyone's 2 cents - I got a pocket full
of change now a-days.
DAve
doub...@hotmail.com
> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
> wine police I am merely making suggestions.
I'm making suggestions myself based on my observations and experiences
combined with info given to me by a good winemaker. I'm not suggesting
drinking bad stuff, I'm suggesting a method to fix it.
"Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no. Of
> course, to the best of my knowledge, I have never
> drunk a low alcohol beverage that had green mold
> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
> errr - beverage making ;)"
I haven't even heard of anyone getting sick. Like I said, I'm
suggesting ways to fix it not ways to drink it.
"On Oct 26, 11:54 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" <some...@anywhere.com> wrote:
Paul E. Lehmann
>> If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
>> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
>> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
>> wine police I am merely making suggestions.
>
> I'm making suggestions myself based on my
> observations and experiences combined with info
> given to me by a good winemaker. I'm not
> suggesting drinking bad stuff, I'm suggesting a
> method to fix it.
>
> "Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no.
> Of
>> course, to the best of my knowledge, I have
>> never drunk a low alcohol beverage that had
>> green mold
>> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
>> errr - beverage making ;)"
>
> I haven't even heard of anyone getting sick.
> Like I said, I'm suggesting ways to fix it not
> ways to drink it.
I think Cathy has enough information to make her
decision.
doub...@hotmail.com
limited info presented here, I will guarantee it will be an ill-
informed decision.
Bob
jim
the useful opinions and information. The information is useful, the
derision is not.
I am not sure myself as to whether all byproducts of bacterial
spoilage are neutralised when the alcohol levels rise high enough to
kill the infection. I couldn't find much online about it and I don't
know whether many of these byproducts are poisonous either.
Information and opinion given by long-term winemakers on this thread
is interesting though and does help to form a strategy as well as
opinion.
I'd be interesting to hear more on this subject. Perhaps the lack of
testimony from people quoting a negative experience shows that there
is rarely a problem with procedures suggested. Perhaps it just shows
that they haven't read this thread yet.
Jim (a newb)
doub...@hotmail.com
without any examples to back it up. Statements like " I wouldn't do
that" without a reason why just doesn't cut it. Reasons like "That
doesn't sound too appetizing" is not very scientific.
Bob
Paul E. Lehmann
> I'm not worried about the derision. What worries
> me is advice given without any examples to back
> it up. Statements like " I wouldn't do that"
> without a reason why just doesn't cut it.
> Reasons like "That doesn't sound too appetizing"
> is not very scientific.
>
> Bob
Bob,
The reason I especially like this newsgroup is
because there is no (or very little) flaming. If
you want to see what some other newsgroups have
become, just visit some of the political or
computer newsgroups.
If you want some (non scientific) backing from me
it would be (IMHO), that mold WILL produce SOME
byproducts that may not be desireable in the
final product. Examples would be Brett and VA
infections not to mention some possible more
serious ones depending on part of the percnet
alcohol, pH etc.
There are a LOT of different kinds of mold and I
am not an expert and I doubt that is your case.
I will leave this topic to the experts.
From what I have read, green mold is
characteristic of Penicillian. Maybe that is
what is being grown by the OP, maybe not.
Maybe it would produce no harm, maybe not.
I am not a biologist and I do not know what
percentage of alcohol would protect a must from
byproducts that would affect the product (wine or
cider) in an adverse manner taste or possible
heath issues. The advice I gave errors on the
side of caution.
It may very well be the case that the advice you
gave is acceptable (in this particular case) but
can you be sure that it will cause no harm in all
cases? I think this is the question that should
be asked.
The OP is NOT talking about a LARGE quantity of
cider (wine), at least not by my definition. If
in doubt AND if the OP were making a LARGE
quantity of wine or cider, then I think the very
best advice I could give would be to send a
sample to a lab. Most labs are reasonable -
especially if we are talking about large volumes
of product. If we are NOT talking about large
volumes then I think my advice still stands.
I am quite sure you will disagree based on YOUR
experience but like the old saying goes "Your
mileage may vary.
I hope we can all benefit from a dialog and get
along. That is my primary concern.
Paul
