The "fruit winemaking culture" (&) dilution of fruit wines
benr...@my-deja.com
I'd like to air my views on dilution and the common fruit winemaking
culture I see, and hear what others think...
I have moved the topic of dilution (from the "pineapple wine" thread) to
here incase of extra input. Dilution of fruit juice or even using a
small amount of crushed fruit and a large amount of water is something
that bothers be about the normal fruit winemaking practises world wide.
ECWine wrote:
> it seems no one can provide a consistant answer as to why most fruit
> wine recipes dilute with water then add acids.
Joanne Reiter wrote:
> Probably because most recipees call for whole/crushed fruit
I'd say, traditionally people watered down most fruit wines because
either the cost of ingredients was high (the "why make only 1 litre of
wine from 1kg of fruit when you can make 3 litres" kind of attitude) or
because they're aiming for better balance (reduce too-higher
acid/tannin/etc). But otherwise I see no reason to dilute juice.
I understand that fruit can be expensive if you're making wine without
diluting, but I certainly use as much fruit as I possibly can - why
dilute the flavour? Do people want bland tasting wine?! Fair enough if
you like your wine subtle or light, but just looking at commercial
grape-wine style trends is enough to see that that's not the
general case. In the grape winemaking world, dilution (or even
increasing yields) is considered extremely bad practise and the wine
critics are onto it like vultures whenever it arises.
Given that with fruit wine (1) you're probably going to have to
chaptalize - and thus dilute - anyway and (2) the fruit is not generally
grown for quality wine, but instead for high yields of eating-fruit; I'd
do everything I could to get a flavoursome wine!
It seems to me the dilution culture is just tradition. I think it's time
to change.
I also believe (now here's some more controversy which may well make me
unpopular!) that the "recipe" culture with fruit wines goes hand-in-hand
with this. People ask "do you have a recipe for [insert fruit here]" and
someone responds with "x kgs of fruit, x tsp acid blend" etc. This is
ridiculous in my opinion. It says nothing of the quality or variety of
fruit, nothing of the ripeness, the growing conditions (if this
info's obtainable) etc, nothing about fermentation method or temperature
etc. And as for the "acid blend" - is this 50% tartaric & 50% malic,
something else? What was the acid content of the fruit _before_ the acid
blend was even added anyway? What's the final total acidity? You don't
have a clue - saying "add 2 tsp acid blend" means nothing because the
wine might already be at a suitable acid level or even over that level
- it depends on the fruit.
Things like this get to me because they don't really tell the winemaker
anything. No-one is learning anything new (eg that this fruit is best
produced in this style or with this variety, etc) and I don't see fruit
wine quality improving in this `1950's gardening/home recipe' culture.
Of course, some people might just be into wine for the fun of making a
quantity of alcoholic beverage and are not interested in striving to
constantly make better wine - and I have no problem with that. But for
those that are, I suggest the approach needs to change.
What do you think?
Ben
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Scot Mc Pherson
of the consituents of the juice is too high in concentration...For example,
I squeeze 2 -3 gallons of orange juice to make 5 gallons of orange
wine...Why? Because I think the citric acid gets too high and reduces the
overall quality of the finished wine. My apple wine is made with 100% fresh
apple cider preferably from a blend of nice tart apples. No water there...
That pineapple juice from the previous thread would be a candidate for
dilution due to the acidity, and if the maker were going to bottle strictly
on the dry side...If it were on the sweet side I wouldn't recommend as much
or any dilution depending on sweetness because acidity and sweetness do very
well together to make something fruity.
There has been a school of thought which has arrisen about 30-40 years ago,
that diluting the fruit in a fruit wine improves its quality...This may very
well be so according to some tastes. This concept has been published fairly
well by two of Stanely Anderson's books. He promotes dilution to reduce the
character of the principle fruit in order to enhance the vin quality of the
alcoholic beverage you are fermenting. Since grapes have so many different
characteristics, I believe the number was something like 22 or 23 aromatics,
and other fruit typcally have between 3-10 (I am truly guessing on these
number, but the point remains the same), by having these fewer aromatics
with increased potency has led some people to decide that thier country
wines taste more like alcoholic rotten fruit juice rather than quality wine
(I personally don't agree with this, but I can also see why one would take
this viewpoint)...By reducing hte concentration of the "few" aromatics, one
can fool one's nose and palette into believing there are more qualities in
the wine since the few are not decidely over powering the lack of the
others.
I realize I wrote this kind of jumbled, but the principle is accurate...I
have my newborn baby in my hands as I type this 1 handed, so please forgive
my indulgence.
Scot Mc Pherson
<benr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:94crjl$1op$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
RottenGrapes
making "big," concentrated fruit wines. I think that such wines could be
very interesting as a home winemaking project. They might even sell
commercially, but I don't really know about that.
Scot has pointed out that fruit wines are usually diluted because one
(or more) of the consituents of the juice is too high in concentration.
This sounds like an opportunity for a blend to retain all of the flavors
of the full strength, undiluted wines and balance the flavors of 2 or
more different wines against each other to achieve a better blend. At
the risk of suggesting a surge of "Snapple" wines, wouldn't the
possibilities of "Orange/Raspberry," or "Strawberry/Pineapple/Banana" be
better than diluted single fruit wines?
The blends would be best from highly concentrated wines made from
undiluted fruits or juices.
If all else failed, you could always make some glass marble wine for
blending (recipe: boil 5 glass marbles in 1 gallon of water, add sugar
to raise S.G. to target alcohol level, add citric, malic or tartaric
acid as required for blending, pitch yeast, rack off the marbles when
fermentation finishes). That's all you are really doing by diluting and
chaptalizing fruit juices before fermentation, isn't it?
--
Check out Rotten Grapes winemaking and viticulture bookmarks
at http://www.deja.com/my/pb/web_bookmark.xp?member_name=rottengrapes
à
you use a little water. Freezing does help release the juice. Grape wine
is a little different from many fruit wines. Some fruits are just too
strong flavored to make a really enjoyable wine. I have been making fruit
and grape wine with my parents for only 40 years but I have a lot too learn.
If you don't dilute some fruits the wine is no fun. Raspberry is an
example. Blending them with a grape wine may make a fun flavor but then do
you have a true taste? Right now I'm drinking a 16 month old peach wine
made from 90 lbs of peaches (18 gallons of wine). If we didn't add some
water, it would be overpowering. BTW the peach wine tasted like hell the
first 9 mounths.
--
Never get a dragon angry, for thou art crunchy and tasty.
ECWine
I think we need to distinguish between 2 different types of fruits that are
used to make wines.
Some fruits and vegetables have little or no water present in their
composition. E.g.. Cranberries, Blueberries, Dandelions, Figs... It is
obvious that the addition of water should be present in these recipes.
These fruits add more flavor than the "glass marbles" that rottengrapes has
described but are made with that "basic wine recipe" in mind. When people
request recipes for these types of wine it would better serve to provide a
recipe for juice rather than wine. For example, how do you make cranberry
juice, or dandelion or blueberry juice. Once you have a balanced juice,
standard wine making practices can be followed. I have been making a
cranberry and blueberry wine for many years and have marketed them with
great success.
The other type of fruit would be those fruits that contain enough H20 so
that no dilution is necessary. My original question regarding pineapple
juice was to find out if the flavors of pineapple were too strong for a
quality and therefore had to be diluted. I am not familiar with the books
that Scot Mc Pherson quotes but it seems the author believes that I had a
valid concern. Personally, I have decided not to follow this advice. If I
do not like my undiluted pineapple wine I will take rottengrapes advice and
find another fruit wine that compliments it. I think that if we are going
to recommend "recipes" we should provide reasoning along with the recipe and
if the dilution of fruits, that already contain sufficient H20 to make wine,
is recommended in a recipe it should be explained WHY. Also, if nobody
knows the reason why than we should not promote dilution. Many professional
winemakers I have spoken with feel this is just a method to increase yield
at the expense of quality.
I just read and...@banet.net post while drafting this. He knows from
experience certain wines that are too strong flavored to make enjoyable
wines. I wish we could determine what these fruits are and , at the same
time, be cautious about some of the recipes we see on the net that call for
such heavy dilution.
ECWine
J Reiter
you have many good points that are well taken. However, with 'fruit'
(non-grape) wines I'll stand by the point that most recipes that I've seen
call for whole, crushed fruit. Scott M's points about certain constuents of
the fruit being too high may have called for the addition of water are also
well taken (p.s. congratulations on your newborn!).
Ben, I can only reply that if you had a taste of my clementine wine you
would have no arguement with it. The 'recipe' that I cobbled together from
various sources, calls for water. It may be a sin for grapes, but I really
don't see where it could be a sin for 'fruit' wines. Try making raspberry
wine from pure raspberries! The answer is; you don't need to!!! (I'm not
yelling, just making a point). Perhaps the chemistry and make-up of
non-grape fruits is such that the difference allows the addition of water to
bring out the natural flavors and nuances non-grape fruits. Other fruits may
be lacking in this regard, but this is where experimentation comes in.
But even with experimentation of fruit wines with/without added water I
would argue that even with grape wines there are 'deficiences' that are made
up with yeast foods, tartaric additions, sugar additions, pH adjustments, ML
yeast additions so we can save the resulting product, longer. Each fruit
(grapes included) comes with its own set of 'plusses' and 'minuses' with the
minuses being deficiences.
All I can say is, is that if you want to argue for a strict 'purist'
standpoint to the point that a non-grape wine ought be made from pure juice
with no water added, then you've got quite a project ahead of yourself with
proving your point.
Joanne
benr...@my-deja.com wrote in message <94crjl$1op$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
jackkeller
> If all else failed, you could always make some glass marble wine for
> chaptalizing fruit juices before fermentation, isn't it?
Not at all. Your recipe makes an alcoholic beverage, but it isn't wine.
Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page,
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp
Eddie Vanderzeeuw
This depends on the fruit. I make fruit wines, many kinds. when i get the
juice, i check sugar content adjust to 11 to 13 % alcohol. ajust acidety to
.6, (my taste) depending on the overall taste. Get the picture? addjust to
taste. The recipies are a starting point not a be all ect. If water is
needed to reduce a componenet do it . But if not needed do not use water!
Eddie V.
jackkeller
> Dilution of fruit juice or even using a small amount of crushed fruit
> and a large amount of water is something that bothers be about the
> normal fruit winemaking practises world wide.
Ben, you've aired your views but you obviously haven't widely tested
them yet. If you had, I have no doubt you would realize that a great
many fruits, vegetables and berries are simply unsuitable for pure-
juice fermentations. It's been done and done again and then done
again, and every time the experimenter learns the truth of it and goes
back to dilution. That's why it is the normal practice worldwide.
Several people have mentioned raspberry as the obvious example of a non-
grape base that makes a totally undrinkable beverage if fermented pure
juice. But in truth there are very few that make acceptable wine from
pure juice.
I'm in my 37th year of winemaking and I think I've pushed most
ingredients to their acceptable limits of concentration/dilution
without sacrificing balance. I've made many wines trying to increase
the concentration that I was too embarrassed to serve to friends, but
I've only made a couple that were too weakly flavored to be proud of.
> I also believe...that the "recipe" culture with fruit wines goes hand-
> in-hand with this. People ask "do you have a recipe for [insert
> fruit here]" and someone responds with "x kgs of fruit, x tsp acid
> blend" etc. This is ridiculous in my opinion. It says nothing of
> the quality or variety of fruit, nothing of the ripeness, the growing
> conditions (if this info's obtainable) etc, nothing about
> fermentation method or temperature etc.
Ben, thgis may come as a shock, but there are people out there who just
want to make wine. If they want to make really easy wine, they buy a
kit and follow the instructions (the recipe, if you will allow it, for
their particular grape wine). But if they have a fruit tree or some
wild berries growing nearby, they just want a recipe that will produce
a good, drinkable wine every time. There are recipes that allow them
to do this. They don't want to understand organic chemistry or
infusion techniques or fermentation processes. They just want to make
some good wine. It may be difficult for you to understand this
mentality, but there are more people like that than there are people
like you.
If you look at the many "country wine" sites on the web, you'll find
many that post recipes and make no effort to educate the site's users.
There are a few, however, that discuss the fruits or berries involved,
post recipes applicable to the various bases, and go on to discuss the
art of making wines so that the user can learn to go beyond the recipes
and actually craft a fine product. From the very first day I posted a
page on winemaking at Geocities, I have tried to do the latter. Mock
it if you will, but it has helped thousands of people on six continents
make good wines.
> And as for the "acid blend" - is this 50% tartaric & 50% malic,
> something else? What was the acid content of the fruit _before_ the
> acid blend was even added anyway? What's the final total acidity? You
> don't have a clue - saying "add 2 tsp acid blend" means nothing
> because the wine might already be at a suitable acid level or even
> over that level - it depends on the fruit.
Actually, Ben, I do have a clue. I've made over 600 batches of many,
many types of wine. I made 32 different wines last year and 34 the
year before. I have 18 batches in progress right now. Last year I
made 6 wines that, as far as I can determine, have never been made (or
at least published) before. I make wines from wild fruit and from
commercial fruit, from tinned juices and dried fruit, and I most
definitely comment on the differences. But on the whole, within a
fruit type and variety, I deal with averages. Every fruit of a like
type will be different for reasons you mentioned and many others, but
the recipes posted for that fruit will still make a reasonably good
wine from it. If you want to make it into a fine wine, just keep
studying my site or several others and most of what you need to know to
accomplish that is there. What isn't is being added.
You are entitled to your opinions about diluting fruit juices, the
"recipe culture" or anything else for that matter, but your opinions
would carry more weight if you made the wines and published the
results. I also think your opinions would undergo change if you did.
Theory is fine, but in winemaking the finished product speaks for
itself.
Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page,
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp
ECWine
were you when I first asked my question. Does pineapple juice need to be
diluted. Will it be undrinkable if I make the wine from straigt pineapple
juice? Has anyone actually made a wine from straight pineapple juice?
Greg Cook
<jke...@laser.brooks.af.mil> wrote:
> Ben, you've aired your views but you obviously haven't widely tested
> them yet. If you had, I have no doubt you would realize that a great
> many fruits, vegetables and berries are simply unsuitable for pure-
> juice fermentations. It's been done and done again and then done
> again, and every time the experimenter learns the truth of it and goes
> back to dilution. That's why it is the normal practice worldwide.
>
> Several people have mentioned raspberry as the obvious example of a non-
> grape base that makes a totally undrinkable beverage if fermented pure
> juice. But in truth there are very few that make acceptable wine from
> pure juice.
Jack,
Would you care to comment on those few fruits that do produce acceptable
wines when fermented with pure juice? The only thing that comes to my mind
would be apple. I have been thinking about trying a pure juice, or at least
a very concentrated extract for a strawberry wine this spring, as I find
most strawberry wine to be rather thin. What successes have you had in
undiluted fruit wine?
Thanks a bunch.
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
RottenGrapes
alcohol" rather than "wine." And after reading your other post on this
thread, I'll defer to your experience as I was talking from a
theoretical perspective.
While I've got your attention, though, isn't my overall point somewhat
valid. That is, if you push the concentration too far, maybe even to the
limit of the fruit or juice you have, and you come up with something
with intense flavors, but somewhat out of balance, you can try to blend
it with another fruit wine that balances the problems of the first. For
example, maybe an orange wine made from pure juice that's got big orange
flavors, but is to acidic could be blended with a banana wine that was
low in acid, but otherwise well concentrated and sound. The proportions
would have to be worked out at blending time.
I know with grape wines, blending well concentrated wines that balance
each other generally works well, but trying to blend a wine that is
lacking in concentration or has some other serious defect will generally
be "throwing good wine after bad" and just make more bad wine.
At worst, wouldn't adding a blending solution like I described get you
pretty close to what you would have had if you just diluted the original
juice or fruit with the water, sugar and acid you used in the blending
solution? Or is the wine ruined by fermenting at the higher
concentration and beyond the help of diluting at that point?
In article <94do09$nc3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
--
Check out Rotten Grapes winemaking and viticulture bookmarks
at http://www.deja.com/my/pb/web_bookmark.xp?member_name=rottengrapes
J Reiter
if I may add another two cents' worth here. Just the other night I was
at a wine tasting and listening to a conversation with a friend of mine who
was qualifying or grading wine grapes on whether thay made a 'profound' wine
or not. Her example was Sangiovese (insert all appropriate disclaimers
here). While it makes a robust wine, in her opiinion it does not make a
_profound_ wine.
I gather that the main point of all the discussion on this thread of
fruit wines is that you have to find the recipe (appropriate to your fruit
and its quality/terrior, etc) that provides you with a _profound_ wine. And
adding water may be part of that balance that gives you the ideal product.
As to poor EC Wine and his pineapple juice; I really don't know, check
Jack Keller's winemaking page.
Joanne
benr...@my-deja.com wrote in message <94crjl$1op$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
jackkeller
flawed wine with good in hopes of achieving a decent blend. I rarely
works out that way.
My own favorite blending wines are rhubarb, banana, Niagara grape,
orange, oak leaf, and onion. These are all white wines, but blend well
even with reds but at the expense of color. My favorite red blender is
the red wine I make from our native mustang grapes.
There is very often a limit to flavor intensity. Take vanilla, for
example. Just a few drops in a quart of liquid is usually delightful,
but if you go much higher it becomes downright distasteful. The trick
is to find that limit and aim just below it. This often causes other
problems (acidity, tannin, alcohol, residual sugar being the most
obvious), but they CAN be dealt with. Sensory analysis just becomes
very difficult when intense flavors overwhelm the tastebuds.
I am not at all opposed to intense flavors, but the result should be
something that tastes like wine, not fruit juice.
jackkeller
pineapple wine on my website, is that pineapple needs to be diluted
considerably.
I have never made pure pineapple wine, but I have doubled the amount
called for in the recipes and not been happy at all. I'm sure people
have made pure pineapple wine. You don't hear about it because people
don't usually write about their failures.
Where was I during the previous thread? I may have been on vacation in
Florida or I may have already returned and simply not been interested in
the thread title, or the title may have suggested a subject that I felt
was already over-worked. I don't know. I don't read every thread. I
have very limited time these days so I limit my reading and replies.
The best way to get my attention is by addressing the thread to me or
sending me an email.
ECWine
Scot Mc Pherson
not like strawberry wine is the reason it is diluted to the great extent
that it is.
Scot Mc Pherson
Greg Cook <prairi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B6904BB3.102F8%prairi...@hotmail.com...
Scot Mc Pherson
support to jack's excellent post.
by having these fewer aromatics
with increased potency has led some people to decide that thier country
wines taste more like alcoholic rotten fruit juice rather than quality wine
Scot Mc Pherson
jackkeller <jke...@laser.brooks.af.mil> wrote in message
news:94dt67$r8a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
jackkeller
meeting of the San Antonio Regional Wine Guild. I just returned. We
took a survey of the members at today's meeting and it yielded the
following results.
There were 18 members in attendance. Combined winemaking experience of
those 18 members is 292 years.
The only fruit everyone agreed could be fermented as pure juice were
grapes and apples, although one man claimed to have fermented pure pear
juice with acceptable results and another said he once fermented pure
blackberry juice, but the flavor was so strong it almost gagged you. I
once fermented pure Valencia orange juice but thought it was too
strongly flavored and too acidic. No one else admitted to ever being
tempted to ferment a pure juice. In all cases but grape, sugar and
other ingredients were added.
AndieZ
--
Never get a dragon angry, for thou art crunchy and tasty.
and...@banet.net
ECWine <winem...@home.com> wrote in message
news:BnGa6.29497$B6.87...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
Chris Dumas
I want to add my two bits. I'm probably of the recipe culture. That
doesn't mean a lack of curiosity but I like to take advantage of other's
efforts before I embark on my own. I've taken a number of recipes as
starting points, tasted, then adjusted in ways I thought would improve them
and had wines I found more enjoyable (maybe because I know that they're only
served at my table). Other times I've found that you really don't want to
add to many elder berry flowers etc. It's great in dilution but quickly
becomes undrinkable.
Chris
benr...@my-deja.com
interesting reading.
Firstly, I have already stated in my original post that some fruit
juices need to be balanced (whether it be acid, tannin etc) and I would
actually support (though not solely) RottenGrapes' comments on blending.
In addition to this, it's obvious that dilution is necessary for some
fruits/vegetables/flowers that don't yield much juice (eg rhubarb,
blueberries, flowers etc) - as ECWine brought up.
Don't get me wrong: my anti-dilution argument isn't an all out law for
every single wine out there. There are obvious exceptions. But "watering
down flavour" can still be an issue with these wines - you might use 1
kg of berries per liter, or you might use 3 kgs. You might use as many
flowers as you could stuff into your 1 gallon carboy, or you could use
half as many (and obviously, in the case of flowers - there is no acid
present already, so diluting to obtain a balance is not necessary.)
Concentration of flavour is a concern here too.
Secondly, I would like to respond to Jack's criticisms:
I certainly haven't been winemaking for 37 years but I do know what I
have done, and my experiences are still valid; and my experiences with
dilution seem to be the opposite of yours.
>I've made many wines trying to increase the concentration that I was
>too embarrassed to serve to friends, but I've only made a couple that
>were too weakly flavored to be proud of.
The wines I've made at low concentrations have generally been thin and
lacking flavour (often embarrassingly so) and those that have used
higher concentrations of juice (mostly 100%) have been my best.
"à " <and...@banet.net> wrote:
>taste? Right now I'm drinking a 16 month old peach wine made from 90
>lbs of peaches (18 gallons of wine). If we didn't add some water, it
>would be overpowering. BTW the peach wine tasted like hell the first
>9 mounths.
That's only around 600g/l peaches. I've got a peach wine clearing right
now which was made with 650 g/l peaches and it's lovely. I wouldn't call
it "concentrated", but it definitely has a strong peach character. It's
not overpowering in the slightest.
I'd like to add at this point that concentration of flavour in a fruit
will undoubtedly be different depending on the growing conditions. It
may well be that using 600 g/l of the peaches you used were really full
flavoured peaches, whereas mine weren't.
Still, my peaches were from the south of France, so you'd hope they
weren't too bad! Some of my past thin wines lacking flavour were made
from fruit in Sydney, Australia (also a pretty good fruit source) and
I'd add that Scotland (where I am now) is famed for its raspberries
(just the right growing conditions.)
Back to Jack:
> Ben, thgis may come as a shock, but there are people out there who
>just want to make wine. If they want to make really easy wine, they
>buy a kit and follow the instructions (the recipe, if you will allow
>it, for their particular grape wine). But if they have a fruit tree or
>some wild berries growing nearby, they just want a recipe that will
>produce a good, drinkable wine every time. There are recipes that
>allow them to do this. They don't want to understand organic chemistry
>or infusion techniques or fermentation processes. They just want to
>make some good wine. It may be difficult for you to understand this
> mentality, but there are more people like that than there are people
>like you.
I perfectly understand this and even wrote this at the bottom of my
original post!!
I wrote "some people might just be into wine for the fun of making a
quantity of alcoholic beverage... and I have no problem with that."
This discussion is not aimed at those people - if they're happy with
diluting, happy without any technical details, then fine, I have no
problem with that. But for those that are striving to make a better
quality product every wine they make, I suggest (in my opinion) a lack
of technical detail is a source of potential source of low-quality (as
dilution may be).
> > And as for the "acid blend" - is this 50% tartaric & 50% malic,
> > something else? What was the acid content of the fruit _before_ the
> > acid blend was even added anyway? What's the final total acidity?
> > You don't have a clue - saying "add 2 tsp acid blend" means nothing
> > because the wine might already be at a suitable acid level or even
> > over that level - it depends on the fruit.
>
> Actually, Ben, I do have a clue. I've made over 600 batches of many,
> many types of wine. I made 32 different wines last year and 34 the
> year before. I have 18 batches in progress right now. Last year I
> made 6 wines that, as far as I can determine, have never been made (or
> at least published) before. I make wines from wild fruit and from
> commercial fruit, from tinned juices and dried fruit, and I most
> definitely comment on the differences. But on the whole, within a
> fruit type and variety, I deal with averages. Every fruit of a like
> type will be different for reasons you mentioned and many others, but
> the recipes posted for that fruit will still make a reasonably good
> wine from it. If you want to make it into a fine wine, just keep
> studying my site or several others and most of what you need to know
> to accomplish that is there. What isn't is being added.
This is not a personal attack on people who write or use recipes in this
way. The "You" I wrote in the above is should be read as "one [person]
doesn't have a clue." Please don't take it personally!
You have not responded to the criticism at all though: my comment is
concerning the style inwhich "recipes" are written. The example I quoted
of "x tsp acid blend" shows a misguided approach to winemaking because
it doesn't give any information. x tsp acid blend might contribute 1 g/l
acid or it might be 3 - it might be OK if this blend's constituents were
known, but otherwise you can in no way quantitatively assess this wine's
acidity; and that's what would be needed for this information to
actually have any meaning. Otherwise, you may aswell write "add acid
blend", and even then someone might come along with a wine which has a
nicely balanced acidity, blindly follow the instruction to add acid, and
end up with an acid content causing imbalance.
As I said above, if people don't want technical details then fine, and I
would agree that the majority of winemakers aren't interested in
technical details (eg infusion times or fruit quality or fermentation
details, or often even tasting notes of the finished wine!).
But it is my belief (and I believe it's been _proved_ within the
commercial grapewinemaking world too) that a scientific and technical
approach to fruit winemaking would further quality extremely and that's
why I'd like to see it. It just doesn't seem to be out there in the
fruit winemaking world, and I think this is a shame.
> You are entitled to your opinions about diluting fruit juices, the
> "recipe culture" or anything else for that matter, but your opinions
> would carry more weight if you made the wines and published the
> results. I also think your opinions would undergo change if you did.
> Theory is fine, but in winemaking the finished product speaks for
> itself.
I have!! And I believe the theory has been proven in practise!
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/Styles/StyleDes.htm
These are some of the high concentration wines I've made, AND they
provide technical detail!
They include 100% plum and 100% elderberry juice wines, plus a rhubarb
using 435 g/l fruit; and they _will_ include (when I complete them)
elderflower wines using 88% flowers/volume (`medium packed') - that's
3.33 litres of flowers in a US gallon. All of which are very drinkable,
and among my best wines.
I have yet to try the famed over-powerful raspberry - but I have some
raspberries in my freezer and intend to conduct a 100% juice
fermentation with them for a full concentrated (and not overpowering)
flavour. That'll be the real test :)
Jack Keller wrote:
> If you look at the many "country wine" sites on the web, you'll find
> many that post recipes and make no effort to educate the site's users.
I think this is a great shame. There are very few fruit winemaking sites
on the web (that I've seen anyway) that cover any technical details of
how the wine was made, or even how wines might be made. Even many
commercial grape winemakers are putting technical details on their
websites now (eg Brix at picking, final analysis of alcohol & acid & pH,
what proportion of the wine went through MLF (if it did), what
proportion of new and old oak was used, maceration temperature etc). I
think it's a shame fruit winemakers don't do the same.
Not only this, but few even state their preferences! For example, I used
to make elderflower wines with around 6 g/l TA (tartaric) and now prefer
around the 7 g/l mark as I feel that for an elderflower wine - i.e. the
traditional light-medium bodied, floral style - this acidity suites the
style more. I realise this is subject to my personal taste - it's just a
preference - but there'd be no harm in these kinds of comments
(especially if preferred to the more technical). Yet not even these
kinds of ideas are often written about on fruit winemaking websites.
An example of the above approach (with currently only a few comments)
can also be found at my site (the Elderflower is the most complete
example so far):
ECWine wrote:
>I think that if we are going to recommend "recipes" we should provide
>reasoning along with the recipe
I totally agree.
>dilution. Many professional winemakers I have spoken with feel this is
>just a method to increase yield at the expense of quality.
That's the consensus of opinion towards dilution in the grape winemaking
worldwide - whether it be dilution of fruit juice or an increase in vine
yields.
Joanne Reiter wrote:
>Perhaps the chemistry and make-up of non-grape fruits is such that the
>difference allows the addition of water to bring out the natural
>flavors and nuances non-grape fruits. Other fruits may be lacking in
>this
Perhaps, but the idea that a grape would and almost all other fruits
wouldn't seems strange to me.
On the topic of the "vinous quality" that Scot McPherson (congratz on
the newborn!) points out (from Stanely Anderson's book):
Scot Mc Pherson wrote:
>grapes have so many different characteristics, I believe the number was
>something like 22 or 23 aromatics, and other fruit typcally have
>between 3-10 (I am truly guessing on these number, but the point
>remains the same), by having these fewer aromatics with increased
>potency has led some people to decide that thier country wines taste
>more like alcoholic rotten fruit juice rather than quality wine (I
>personally don't agree with this, but I can also see why one would take
>this viewpoint)...By reducing hte concentration of the "few"
>aromatics, one can fool one's nose and palette into believing there are
>more qualities in the wine since the few are not decidely over powering
>the lack of the others.
Now that's interesting! Jack, I think this comes back the the discussion
we were having before about fruit wines being concentrated & complex or
not. You claimed that fruit wines could be just as complex as grape
wines - would the above not suggest otherwise??
Scot Mc Pherson wrote:
>published fairly well by two of Stanely Anderson's books. He promotes
>dilution to reduce the character of >the principle fruit in order to
>enhance the vin quality of the alcoholic beverage you are fermenting.
Jack Keller wrote:
> I am not at all opposed to intense flavors, but the result should be
>something that tastes like wine, not fruit juice.
Concentrated fruit wine doesn't taste like fruit juice - just as
concentrated grape wine doesn't taste like grape juice!
I do see Stanely Anderson's point about ensuring a `winey' quality but I
think that's a lot more to do with overall balance than solely dilution
itself.
RottenGrapes wrote:
>If all else failed, you could always make some glass marble wine for
>blending (recipe: boil 5 glass marbles in 1 gallon of water, add sugar
>to raise S.G. to target alcohol level, add citric, malic or tartaric
>acid as required for blending, pitch yeast, rack off the marbles when
>fermentation finishes).
> That's all you are really doing by diluting and chaptalizing fruit
>juices before fermentation, isn't it?
:)
Joanne Reiter wrote:
> All I can say is, is that if you want to argue for a strict 'purist'
>standpoint to the point that a non-grape wine ought be made from pure
>juice with no water added, then you've got quite a project ahead of
>yourself with proving your point.
I have been rising to the challenge, and shall continue to! :)
AndieZ <and...@banet.net> wrote:
>This has been an interesting thread.
Sure has! Even though, in many fruit winemakers eyes on this group, I'm
probably now on "the dark side" :)
Well I hope it's been of interest to all who've read it.
Greg Cook
"benr...@my-deja.com" <benr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> AndieZ <and...@banet.net> wrote:
>> This has been an interesting thread.
>
> Sure has! Even though, in many fruit winemakers eyes on this group, I'm
> probably now on "the dark side" :)
Not at all. I, for one, look forward to more of your Style pages. They are
inspiring.
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
AndieZ
You also should realize that often it is a matter of personal
preference. We like sweet wine. Even sweet or semi sweet grape. Can't
stand very dry wine. I would gather that most people like dry wine. Some
people like a heavy dry wine and some a light dry. Are we wrong?
True, many wine makers use a recipe and let it go at that. If they like
what they produce, then they may be correct. We have a neighbor that makes
a grape wine that he loves, but my family thinks is undrinkable. Is the
neighbor wrong?
BTW 600g/L peaches and 650g/L peaches is only about 8%. A far cry of 1000
plus g/L peaches needed for pure juice. I think that 400g/L peaches could
possibly make a good wine. Maybe it's all in the definition of a "good
wine".
--
Never get a dragon angry, for thou art crunchy and tasty.
and...@banet.net
<benr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:94kcop$2ta$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
AndieZ
Start another thread like this.
--
Never get a dragon angry, for thou art crunchy and tasty.
and...@banet.net
<benr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:94crjl$1op$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Greg Cook
<and...@banet.net> wrote:
>
> BTW 600g/L peaches and 650g/L peaches is only about 8%. A far cry of 1000
> plus g/L peaches needed for pure juice. I think that 400g/L peaches could
> possibly make a good wine. Maybe it's all in the definition of a "good
> wine".
I think your calculations are off a bit. 600g out of 1000 would be closer
to 60% not 8%.
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
J Reiter
somehow, I have the feeling that your subconscious is trying to come up
with a wine that can stand on it's own, next to the whiskey and salute the
haggis! ;o)
Yes, there are recipes out there for fruit wines. What I have learned,
as I become more experienced, is that these are starting points and not
end-alls for whichever fruit you happen to be fermenting. I can tell you
from experience that the raspberries I get here, in New Mexico are far more
superior and flavorful than those I could get from California. Now,
California produces wonderful fruit, but the quality is far more delicate
than those grown here. Yes, it is a matter of taste AND 'terroir', if you
will, of the fruit. But that is where a recipe comes in, as a starting
point. It has taken me three years to finally come up with the proper ratios
for a raspberry wine made from NM raspberries.
As for adding water, I would argue for the side of balance as to flavor.
I used to think that the higher the alcohol content that I made in my own
wine, the better.....until I made a batch of Chardonnay with a broken
(unbeknownst to me) hydrometer and wound up with an alcohol content of 19%,
conservatively speaking. I learned my lesson then about balance of alcohol
content to grapes. The same thing goes for fruit-wines (non-grape) and the
use of water. The point is, is that flavor mechanisms differ from non-grape
fruits to grapes. Some fruits (apple juice for instance) may/do not rrequire
the addition of water, while others would for the sake of balance of flavor.
The desired end result is a well-made, balanced product.
The problem (or should I say advantage) with fruit wines is that ther is
_NO_ set standard for balance! Hence, recipes. Again, they are starting
pints only and the winemaker is free to use her/his judgement.
I am not sure how this ties into this, but it is my experience that
grapes have enjoyed a longer symbiosis/relationship with yeast (the bloom),
evolutionary-wise than non-grape fruits. Perhaps you ought to look at if
there are non-grape specific yeasts on fruits that would give the 'result'
you are arguing for than when we throw a package of 'wine yeast' (that has
been developed for grapes) at a fruit must with added water. I think that
this would be a very interesting research topic for you.
Joanne
benr...@my-deja.com wrote in message <94kcop$2ta$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
David C Breeden
>----Greg
>prairi...@hotmail.com
No, I think he's saying that there's only about an 8% difference
between the two--between the 650g/L and 600g/L, and so not enough to
draw any grand conclusions about the value of concentrated vs. diluted
wines.
Dave
****************************************************************************
Dave Breeden bre...@lightlink.com
jackkeller
the tone of my reply to you. I wrote it, re-read it and posted it
convinced it did not contain the sharpness that it obviously does.
Upon re-reading it the next day, I cringed. I did not intend a
personal attack and really do not believe I know it all. I simply
disagree with your opinion and have great difficulty believing it is
grounded on actual experience in making fruit wines.
We have had this discussion here before. The last time was a
discussion on how many blackberries could one load into a wine before
it became overwhelming. If I recall correctly, 4-6 pounds per gallon
was considered optimal, with 8 pounds being the point where the flavor
became too intense to enjoy. Your thread was far more generalized and
therefore was more inclusive of non-grape bases. I happen to agree
with my Wine Guild colleagues that grapes and apples are the only pure-
juice wine candidates, which differs greatly from your generalization.
However, if you say you have made plum and elderberry, I will accept
it. Having tasted two elderberries that were very high in juice
content, I hope yours tasted better.
I will agree with you on explaining the technical reasoning behind
making certain recipe recommendations, but also defend the practice of
not doing so on the grounds of readability and brevity. I'll leave it
at that.
Finally, I only want to add that I have enjoyed your web site. Your
approach is very thorough as far as you've gone and I look forward to
its growth. Keep stirring the pot and thickening the stew and I'm sure
we will all get something useful from it.
Again, I'm sorry that my reply was a bit caustic. No offense was
intended and I hope none was taken.
Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page,
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp
Greg Cook
Breeden" <bre...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote:
Dave,
Maybe you are right. I certainly didn't read that in the post. The second
sentence "A far cry of 1000 plus g/L . . ." made me think he was comparing
600 to 1000.
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
Trevor A Panther
agree it is pretty awful
--
From Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England
E-mail :- cheet...@thefreeinternet.co.uk
chee...@ic24.net
"Scot Mc Pherson" <behomet@hom_e.com> wrote in message
news:BdHa6.170351$65.11...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
> Ugh...strawberry wine is aweful in my opinion...BUT for the same reason I
do
<snip. <snip>
Greg Cook
don't have any experience. Would anyone care to comment on what is so
"awful" about it?
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
On 1/23/01 4:41 PM, in article 3a6e0...@news.bizonline.net, "Trevor A
ECWine
I bookmarked your page and look forward to your updates.
As for my pineapple wine, I started fermenting my non diluted juice at 3.9
ph and .8 TA. I plan to finish fermentation, cold stabilize and filter at
.45microns. If the ph and TA don't change I may add tartaric acid to lower
my ph and add some water if needed to lower TA. I will sweeten the wine
then see how it tastes. If the pineapple flavor is too strong I may dilute
but I wont know until I am at this point.
EC Wine
AndieZ
--
Never get a dragon angry, for thou art crunchy and tasty.
Greg Cook <prairi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B69331C5.1078D%prairi...@hotmail.com...
Vinbrew Supply
It is one of my wifes favorite wines that I am able to produce.
I use about 20-30 lbs of strawberry's - frozen
10 lbs of Apple slices - frozen
4-8 ounces of color express (liquid tannin)
Brix of 22
T/A of .80-.85
5 gallons of water.
Best consumed when young. Strawberry goes fast...
"Greg Cook" <prairi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B69365EA.10962%prairi...@hotmail.com...
Ben McCune
I screwed up the first batch I would have stopped there. I went STRICTLY off
of the recipe with no straying. It was Horrible.....
2nd time I added more acid/ Citric/ added Golden raisins and a bit more
sugar at the end for sweetness.. Came out a bit better but no winner....
3rd recipe I added Apples to it and all the other stuff. When the
fermentation stopped and settled I added, 1 3oz bottle of strawberry extract
and a 750ml bottle of Local store bought fairly cheap Merlot, Now ITS
Great.... It added the kick needed, took the harshness away and the bouquet
is wonderful.
To go with the thread, a recipe is a map, it will get you to the closest
point to which you are traveling but not to the point you wish to be at. I
have made Many a fruit wine, from Gooseberry/ Persimmon/ Elderberry and so
on, not one wine has ever been good from the recipe. Experimentation's,
factors weighed in from past recipes and just plain OLE pinch of this and of
that has always made them better..... Ones wine is not mine, I hate dryness,
to dry and its junk in my taste, to sweet and its candy, somewhere in the
middle is for my taste buds.... I have found that SG 996 or below is where
my taste starts going south, expert at it Nope, just love the art and it is
art to me, not a craft.....
Ben & Linda McCune
Honey Creek Acres
bmc...@earthlink.net
> So that's two strikes against strawberry. I have not made it before so I
> don't have any experience. Would anyone care to comment on what is so
> "awful" about it?
> ----Greg
> prairi...@hotmail.com
>
> > Strawberries make a fine sparkling "champagne method )wine but otherwise
i
> > agree it is pretty awful
> > From Trevor A Panther
Tom S
news:BdHa6.170351$65.11...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
do
> not like strawberry wine is the reason it is diluted to the great extent
> that it is.
If you don't like strawberry wine, you're not making it right.
My sister lives next door to a strawberry farm, so she's been experimenting
with the making of wine from it for some years. On my advice, she
_increased_ the amount of fruit in her recipe last year, using very ripe
fruit for more intense flavor. She also used honey for part of the sugar
addition, and I believe she uses tartaric to adjust the acidity. Her
resulting wine was dry with good rose color, intense varietal nose and good
fruit on the palate. Yum! Much better than her previous efforts, which had
always struck me as a bit astringent and lifeless. I told her she should
make _ten_ gallons this year!
Tom S
benr...@my-deja.com
post to this one.
Joanne, you raise some very good points that I feel some up a feeling
well:
> Yes, there are recipes out there for fruit wines. What I have
>learned, as I become more experienced, is that these are starting
>points and not end-alls for whichever fruit you happen to be
>fermenting. I can tell you from experience that the raspberries I get
>here, in New Mexico are far more superior and flavorful than those I
>could get from California. Now, California produces wonderful fruit,
>but the quality is far more delicate than those grown here. Yes, it is
>a matter of taste AND 'terroir', if you will, of the fruit. But that is
>where a recipe comes in, as a starting point. It has taken me three
>years to finally come up with the proper ratios for a raspberry wine
>made from NM raspberries.
I essentially agree with this - this is my point about fruit quality as
I mentioned in my last post: some may be more concentrated than others.
But I believe that people should *write* about these things if they're
writing a recipe - saying to use 2 kgs/gallon in NM is different to 2
kgs/gall in CAL as you've just pointed out. I believe things like this
should be accounted for in "recipes" - without being too pedantic of
course.
But this is one of the least of my "recipe culture" criticisms. I have
much more of a problem with, say, the acid blend addition I previously
referred to, or leaving out information about fermentation etc.
I understand that (1) it's up to the winemaker to judge fruit quality,
fermentation techniques etc for themselves, (2) a recipe is just a
guide, and (3) that some people don't care about this information at all
anyway.
BUT my point is that I'd like to see more of this kind of technical
information around because I believe it would further quality generally
- more people would have a clue of what they could choose to be aiming
for. For example, a recipe might state which variety of plums have been
found to be the better ones for winemaking (even if it's a personal
preference, not a consensus), or that a blend of two particular fruits
is a good one (eg refer to "Tawny Port" thread).
The "recipes" I will have at my site for elderflowers (when they're up)
will go another step in highlighting different styles: both a light,
floral style and a more complex style. These are two totally different
ways of making an elderflower wine, and I'd suggest they're both fairly
common styles. I think pointing this out is a good thing to do, and not
many people do it.
> As for adding water, I would argue for the side of balance as to
flavor.
....
>The point is, is that flavor mechanisms differ from non-grape fruits to
>grapes. Some fruits (apple juice for instance) may/do not rrequire the
>addition of water, while others would for the sake of balance of
>flavor. The desired end result is a well-made, balanced product. The
>problem (or should I say advantage) with fruit wines is that ther is
>_NO_ set standard for balance!
I couldn't agree more with that!
If that sounds hypocritical to what I've been saying about questing for
higher concentration almost-no-matter-what then let me explain that it
is still a matter of getting the balance, but at that higher
concentration. If many fruit wines are incapable of that (which seems to
be the implication some people are making - and really doesn't put fruit
wines in a good light!) then I'd suggest ways of attempting to get round
this - Scot's comments on blending as an example.
I believe the fruit winemaking world _would_ find at least some
standards for balance if they pulled together technical information.
They wouldn't be laws, they'd still be guides. But they'd be much more
helpful than just writing "4 lbs fruit and x tsp acid blend."
> I am not sure how this ties into this, but it is my experience that
>grapes have enjoyed a longer symbiosis/relationship with yeast (the
>bloom), evolutionary-wise than non-grape fruits. Perhaps you ought to
>look at if there are non-grape specific >yeasts on fruits that would
>give the 'result' you are arguing for than when we throw a package of
>'wine yeast' (that has been developed for grapes) at a fruit must with
>added water. I think that this would be a very interesting research
>topic for you.
As far as I know, non-S.cerevisiae (especially those on fruits) tend
(1) to not have a high alcoholic tolerance (i.e. 6-8% commonly I
believe) and thus if you are making a "wine" things might be out of
balance, and
(2) tend to produce some off flavours. I've actually done it myself (a
plum wine with natural fermentation reached around 6-8% (don't have the
figures with me) which wasn't bad actually, except for a slight off
flavour (have to check my notes to define that betteras my memory fails
me.))
<and...@banet.net> wrote:
> BTW 600g/L peaches and 650g/L peaches is only about 8%. A far cry of
>1000 plus g/L peaches needed for pure juice. I think that 400g/L
>peaches could possibly make a good wine. Maybe it's all in the
>definition of a "good wine".
To Andy, Greg and Dave:
Greg is right that 600 g/L is 60% (600/1000 x100 = 60%) - and I too
thought Andy was comparing 600 to 1000.
But 600 g/L is neither 8%, NOR is there are difference of 8% between 600
and 650 g/L.
600 g/L = 60% and 650 g/L = 65% - that's a 5% difference, not 8%!
Dave wrote:
>and so not enough to draw any grand conclusions about the value of
>concentrated vs. diluted wines.
My point was that these two wines were of similar concentration (in
terms of quantity of fruit), yet Andy said this concentration was
overpowering (in his wine at least) - or would have been if he hadn't
added water - and mine was not concentrated at all. There's a discepancy
here and it may be partly due to the fruit used, as I mentioned in my
previous post.
Actually, looking back at it I meant to write 650 ml/L of peach juice -
apologies for this.
That is, Andy made a wine using 600 g/L peaches (which must have yielded
less than 600 ml/L peach juice - due to pulp) and I made a peach wine
using 1000 g/L peaches which yielded *650 ml/kg of juice*.
Andy's is a peach wine of 600 g/L peaches.
Mine is a peach wine of 1000 g/L peaches, 650 ml/L peach juice. My point
still holds - infact, even more so since mine is of higher
concentration!
Another correction to my last post - apologies - is that I write:
"An example of the above approach (with currently only a few comments)
can also be found at my site (the Elderflower is the most complete
example so far): "
and then provide no address. The following address should be written at
this point in the post:
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/Styles/StyleDes.htm
Jack wrote:
>Ben, I have truely enjoyed this thread, but I owe you an apology for
>the tone of my reply to you. I wrote it, re-read it and posted it
>convinced it did not contain the sharpness that it obviously does. Upon
>re-reading it the next day, I cringed. I did not intend a personal
>attack and really do not believe I know it all. I simply disagree with
>your opinion and have great difficulty believing it is grounded on
>actual experience in making fruit wines.
No offence taken :)
BTW, I very much appreciate your input in this discussion.
>I happen to agree with my Wine Guild colleagues that grapes and apples
>are the only pure- juice wine candidates, which differs greatly from
>your generalization. However, if you say you have made plum and
>elderberry, I will accept it. Having tasted two elderberries that were
>very high in juice content, I hope yours tasted better.
I would love for people to taste my 100% juice wines (to see what others
thought of my concentration levels), and to taste other people's (to see
if they were overpowering to me too.)
> I will agree with you on explaining the technical reasoning behind
>making certain recipe recommendations, but also defend the practice of
>not doing so on the grounds of readability and brevity. I'll leave it
>at that.
I think both should exist - I just wish there was more of the technical
detail/reasoning approach around (it's not common).
> Finally, I only want to add that I have enjoyed your web site. Your
>approach is very thorough as far as you've gone and I look forward to
>its growth. Keep stirring the pot and thickening the stew and I'm sure
>we will all get something useful from it.
Thanks.
ECWine,
> As for my pineapple wine, I started fermenting my non diluted juice at
>3.9 ph and .8 TA. I plan to finish
....
>needed to lower TA. I will sweeten the wine then see how it tastes.
>If the pineapple flavor is too strong I >may dilute but I wont know
>until I am at this point.
Sounds good - please let us all know how it turns out!
Greg wrote:
> I, for one, look forward to more of your Style pages. They are
>inspiring.
Thanks for your support.
Ben
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter
David C Breeden
> <and...@banet.net> wrote:
>> BTW 600g/L peaches and 650g/L peaches is only about 8%. A far cry of
>>1000 plus g/L peaches needed for pure juice. I think that 400g/L
>>peaches could possibly make a good wine. Maybe it's all in the
>>definition of a "good wine".
>To Andy, Greg and Dave:
>Greg is right that 600 g/L is 60% (600/1000 x100 = 60%) - and I too
>thought Andy was comparing 600 to 1000.
>But 600 g/L is neither 8%, NOR is there are difference of 8% between 600
>and 650 g/L.
>600 g/L = 60% and 650 g/L = 65% - that's a 5% difference, not 8%!
Depends on which way you go, and what you're comparing. I assumed the
math was right, and that 650 was being compared to 600. If so, that
really is ~8%--650 is 8% bigger than 600 (i.e., 50 is 8% of 600).
jackkeller
> ...this is my point about fruit quality as I mentioned in my last
> post: some may be more concentrated than others. But I believe that
> people should *write* about these things if they're writing a recipe -
> saying to use 2 kgs/gallon in NM is different to 2 kgs/gall in CAL as
> you've just pointed out. I believe things like this should be
> accounted for in "recipes" - without being too pedantic of course.
Ben, please go to http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/request112.asp and
read the intro to my recipe for Japanese Plum Wine. I discuss Prunus
salicina and specifically mention I do this same thing with many of
my recipes -- discuss the fruit and which varieties make good wine and
which make bad. It is not possible for me (or any one person) to
compare "Formosa" Japanese Plums grown in New Mexico to "Formosa"
Japanese Plums grown in California, Oregon, British Columbia, or the
Davis Mountains of West Texas. But is is helpful, I believe, to point
out that "Formosa" Japanese Plums are among the favored (at least by
me) for making Japanese Plum Wine, that the flesh is pale yellow (and
will thus produce a white wine), and it is relatively sweet and very
flavorful.
Yes, I then go on to recommend using six pounds of any of the
recommended Japanese Plums per gallon of wine and to supplement this
with 1 teaspoon of acid blend. But my terms are defined on my site.
In my discussion of "acid blend" in my "Glossary of Winemaking Terms"
at http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/glossary.asp I state, "The recipes
on this site calling for acid blend assume a blend of 50% tartaric, 30%
malic and 20% citric. If your acid blend uses a different ratio, you
may want to use slightly more or less depending on your blend. " Yes,
I could have devised a table comparing every possible blend of the
three acids and attempted to eqate them somehow by quantities (although
I can't for the life of me fathom exactly how), but I have no real
desire to do that. I have warned the reader and those who feel the
desire will experiment according to their tastes.
Thus, I think you criticisms are a bit overstated because you are
making general condemnations. When you do that you are criticizing
me. I don't mind that when I am guilty as charged, but I think I go
the extra mile to avoid exactly the kind of criticism you are leveling.
--
Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page,
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp
jackkeller
the send button. My response should read as follows:
> ...this is my point about fruit quality as I mentioned in my last
> post: some may be more concentrated than others. But I believe that
> people should *write* about these things if they're writing a recipe -
> saying to use 2 kgs/gallon in NM is different to 2 kgs/gall in CAL as
> you've just pointed out. I believe things like this should be
> accounted for in "recipes" - without being too pedantic of course.
Ben, please go to http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/request112.asp and
read the intro to my recipe for Japanese Plum Wine. I discuss Prunus
salicina and specifically mention and describe 13 varieties suitable
for making very good Japanese Plum Wine--13 out of perhaps 40-45
varieties. I think this is rather helpful. I do this same thing with
Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page,
benr...@my-deja.com
> Depends on which way you go, and what you're comparing. I assumed the
> math was right, and that 650 was being compared to 600. If so, that
> really is ~8%--650 is 8% bigger than 600 (i.e., 50 is 8% of 600).
Dave,
I hate to be pedantic about it but I would say the *difference* between
600 and 650 g/L is 5% (given the terminology of g/L * 100 = %). 650 g/L
is 8% more of 600 g/L, but it is not the difference between the two. I
guess that's just a play on words though and that's probably what Andy
meant.
Ben
benr...@my-deja.com
I checked it out the plum recipe page and indeed, agree that you present
some quality info on plum varieties there. Plus I grant that your
maceration program is well explained. It's great to see!
> I then go on to recommend using six pounds of any of the
> recommended Japanese Plums per gallon of wine and to
717 g/L (72%) plums - nice fruit content too! :)
I might, however, criticize your approach to acid - indulge me :)
>supplement this with 1 teaspoon of acid blend.
Whilst you do give the quantity of each component in the acid blend,
this doesn't tell the winemaker about the final titratable acidity.
I might pick up your recipe and have my must at 7 g/L and then add the 1
tsp acid blend you state, taking the acidity to about 8 g/L (that's
given a US gallon, 1 tsp of 50% tart.,30%malic,20%cit. = 5.1 grams, and
acidity as tartaric). Perhaps my wine was balanced already? And recipes
which say to add 4 tsp acid blend per US gallon will be raising the
acidity by about 4 g/L - that's a considerable amount.
This might be a nice rough guide if we assume that most plum juice comes
in at the same acidity - but it obviously doesn't. So I'd rather say:
"aim for an acidity of x g/L", than say "add x tsp acid blend." the
first is MUCH more specific than the latter. Infact, the latter can lead
to serious imbalance if followed by someone who knows nothing/little of
acidity.
But you are right - I do realise this is a guide that most people don't
follow to the letter and most winemakers add acid to taste. So you are
probably right in that this particular case may well be overstated and
therefore my criticism is invalid on this one.
Other criteria in recipes might include infusion times for flowers, or
fermentation temperatures, or recommended yeast strains, or tasting
notes (including analysis of acidity, alcohol, pH perhaps) on the final
wines, etc. (I realise you specify some of these too.)
> Thus, I think you criticisms are a bit overstated because you are
making general condemnations. When >you do that you are criticizing me.
I don't mind
> that when I am guilty as charged, but I think I go the extra mile to
avoid exactly the kind of criticism >you are leveling.
Please understand that I am not aiming this debate/discussion at anyone
in particular, nor am I intending to "condemn" anyone. I am not telling
anyone what they SHOULD do, or telling them what they do is WRONG.
Winemaking philosophy is a personal preference.
If people are not interested in the issues of this thread, or are
content without technical detail, then I have no criticism of that
personal preference.
I am only suggesting that (in my opinion) things MIGHT be done a
different way to better knowledge and quality.
I still hold that most winemaking web sites (I've seen) don't go into
much technical detail. Most don't go into the detail your's does (I
agree that it's has more than most), or even near what mine does. I'd
just like to see a little more of this approach around as I think it
would better fruit winemaking knowledge and quality.
Thanks for the input in this discussion and I hope there's no hard
feelings,
Ben
David C Breeden
>Ben
Oh, *now* I get it. Thanks.
Okay, so after exhaustive study, I want to say that both of the
following statements are true:
1) 650 g/L is 8% bigger than 600 g/L, and
2) there is a 5% difference betwen 650 g/L and 600 g/l.
:-)
jackkeller
> Thanks for the input in this discussion and I hope there's no hard
> feelings,
None whatsoever. Lively discussions stimulate thinking.
Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page,
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp
jackkeller
aren't making it right. It is one of my wife's favorites and I happen
to like it a lot myself. I've made good batches and I've made
bad, but I don't make it anymore since Poteet Country Winery of Poteet,
Texas started making it. They make the best strawberry wine I've ever
tasted, and they do it consistently. The flavor is very full and
intense, the color a sun-lit ruby, and the body full and almost chewable
in the mouth without being syrupy. And last year they released a
limited reserve that was even better than one might hope for, and that's
saying something. For my review of PCW go to
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/poteet.asp. If you haven't tasted good
strawberry wine, order a bottle and discover what you should aspire to
make.
Craig Lomax
Interesting thread this, we seem to dilute fruit wines to adjust intensity
of flavor but them when it comes to topping up a carboy of fruit wines to
use water is almost sinful (talking small amounts of course) - havent quite
worked this one out yet
r
Craig