Advise for Vineyard Establishment
jay
I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
me.
I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW
I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
can adjust m order through Jan.
I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments
I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
vine...
any thoughts?
Jason
doub...@hotmail.com
know what I'm talking about? You're a dope.
doub...@hotmail.com
expert in the field of Viticulture! ROFLMAO!
Paul E. Lehmann
> Gentleman,
> I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> me.
> I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW
>
> I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> can adjust m order through Jan.
>
> I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments
Here are a couple thoughts:
Go to a nearby commercial vineyard and talk to the winegrower. They are
terribly busy this time of year but I think that after the harvest madness,
you should be able to find someone to talk to. Most growers are glad to
offer advice and talk winegrowing.
Contact your county agriculture extension office. They can be of invaluable
aid and help to you. They can also refer you to others who have expertise.
> I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> vine...
>
> any thoughts?
400 vines is a lot for a beginner or hobbyists. For a vineyard that size,
you will probably need to drive between rows with tractor or truck etc.
Are you sure 6 feet between rows is sufficient?
I know nothing about the area you live in - except for passing through there
once last summer. There is a company called "Peaceful Vally Farm & Garden
Supply" located in California that advertises a lot about organic growing
and lists a lot of different cover crops for vineyards. The web address
is:
GrowOrganic.com
Good luck
Paul
>
> Jason
jay
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks Paul, I will take your advise
Jay
jay
don't
know what I'm talking about? You're a dope. "
I just read From Vines to Wines cover to cover so now I'm a leading
expert in the field of Viticulture! ROFLMAO!
"if you don't don't know what you are talking about you should keep
your mouth shut" funny I never mentioned who I was directing my
comment to...maybe I meant it for Paul....I don't know why you took
offense....funny you start calling me names and Paul offers advise and
references, maybe I expected you to give me some good advise and
references and Paul to call me names...
Paul
thanks again for the advise, "400 vines are alot for a beginer"
I want to plant enough to at least get a barrel of Regent and enough
to determine the quality of the other vines at my sight, plus I can
order three times the vines for the same price if I order 35 or more
of each variety/root stock and I have ten acres ...so space is no
issue...and I will be a stay at home dad full time starting this
winter so i will have the time for the endevor......... As far as
driving between vines the area that I will be covering will not be
very big, a few hundred feet by a few hundred feet so I am not
planning on driving between rows. Other than walking and carrying
small amounts of equipment am I missing something that I will need to
drive between rows for?
there may be a gator in my future since my truck is kinda wide.
thanks again
jay
Paul E. Lehmann
One other source of information:
Check to see if there is a Growers Association in your area.
In Maryland there is the "Maryland Grape Growers Association". Virginia has
a similar organization. There is probably one near you. They are very
good and offer educational short courses and provide meetings and bring in
guest speakers who have expertise in Viticulture.
I don't know about the conditions where you live but here in the Mid
Atlantic, we have to do a LOT of spraying to control all the fungus
problems. You may need to pull a sprayer with something. I have two small
vineyards and I am able to do the spraying with a motorized back pack
sprayer but this is something for you to consider.
doub...@hotmail.com
stuff and make sure people don't know who it's directed too? Even if
it was directed at Paul, who are you to say it? You haven't even grown
one grapevine. You remind me of the Holiday Inn commercials that BobF
refered to a couple weeks ago. Anyway, my advise to you is to not grow
the vines on root stock. That will be the best advise you'll ever get.
I have talked to nurseries in Washington and they own root their vines
out there becasue of the winters you get once every 7-10 years. If you
grow on rootstock and the vine is killed to the graft you need to
restart from scratch. If you grow own rooted vines the vine will shoot
suckers from beneath the soil and your only set back 1 year instead of
4.
Paul E. Lehmann
> Is that the way they teach you to communicate in the militarty? Say
> stuff and make sure people don't know who it's directed too?
You got something against the Military? I spent five years in the Army and
two tours in Vietnam. Perhaps you missed out on a lot of growing up if you
never served.
> Even if
> it was directed at Paul, who are you to say it? You haven't even grown
> one grapevine.
And YOU. Where do you live? What varieties do you grow? How big is your
vineyard? I have REPEATEDLY asked you these basic questions and you never
answer and you claim to have credibility???
> You remind me of the Holiday Inn commercials that BobF
> refered to a couple weeks ago. Anyway, my advise to you is to not grow
> the vines on root stock. That will be the best advise you'll ever get.
> I have talked to nurseries in Washington and they own root their vines
> out there becasue of the winters you get once every 7-10 years. If you
> grow on rootstock and the vine is killed to the graft you need to
> restart from scratch. If you grow own rooted vines the vine will shoot
> suckers from beneath the soil and your only set back 1 year instead of
> 4.
>
> On Sep 26, 1:09 am, jay <jforou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
DAH, hey doublesb, have you even looked to see what part of Washington he
lives in? I guess you had not thought of that or considered the many
climate variations in the State of Washington, have you. Vinifera are
usually grown on rootstock, there are reasons for this but I don't think
you would understand.
jay
doub...@hotmail.com
guy. The French didn't grow vines on rootstock until they imported our
phyloxerra. If you get own rooted vines and the is no phyloxera on the
vines where is the phyloxera going to come from? I have own rooted
vines from a nursery in Washington growing in my vineyard and they're
doing great. NO PHYLOXERA.Phyloxera is a scam. It keep nurseries in
business. I have personally seen thousands of vines killed by cold and
have NEVER witnessed a vine die by phyloxera but all people
concentrate on is phyloxera and plant grafted vines. If you are
careful and don't have trucks delivering equiptment that have visited
phyloxera infested vineyards, it shouldn't be a problem. Have you ever
seen a vine die of phyloxera? How about cold damage? Tell the truth
now Paul. Which way is a vine likely to die?
On Sep 26, 10:26 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" <plehmann_21...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Paul E. Lehmann
> I don't care where he lives.
Obviously, you believe your way fits every area of the world.
You obviously do not have the ambition to look at a map of where Jay lives.
Here is a hint. He does not live in the desert region of Washington State.
> You're the big "do what the french do"
Hardly, I believe where you live determines which varieties one grows and
all the other parameters involved in viticulture. YOU are of the
opinion "Do what doublsb does"
> guy. The French didn't grow vines on rootstock until they imported our
> phyloxerra. If you get own rooted vines and the is no phyloxera on the
> vines where is the phyloxera going to come from?
> I have own rooted
> vines from a nursery in Washington growing in my vineyard and they're
> doing great. NO PHYLOXERA.Phyloxera is a scam.
You won't even tell us where you live, what varieties you are growing and
how many vines you have. For all we know, you are growing native American
species.
> It keep nurseries in
> business. I have personally seen thousands of vines killed by cold and
> have NEVER witnessed a vine die by phyloxera but all people
> concentrate on is phyloxera and plant grafted vines.
You obviously do not understand rootstock selection and why it makes a
difference.
> If you are
> careful and don't have trucks delivering equiptment that have visited
> phyloxera infested vineyards, it shouldn't be a problem. Have you ever
> seen a vine die of phyloxera? How about cold damage? Tell the truth
> now Paul. Which way is a vine likely to die?
From ignorance from people who might be foolish enough to follow your
advice.
jay
mixture, but I am pretty sure its going to be on of those two,
is there a method to propogate new rootstock for new grafts from
grafted vines that are already established ?
jay
future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock is that
WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have chosen 1-2
weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also show more
complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.
doub...@hotmail.com
http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?article=1620&issue=59
Notice the statement:
"One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter freezes
that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on average, every
seven to ten years.
Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
warm spell. Something like this one.
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/pool/HO%20wi%20geneva%2003%2004%20version3.pdf
Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not far
from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is all
dead.
doub...@hotmail.com
harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
can damage your crop."
How does an early frost "damge" your vines? BTW, I've never believed
in the "early frost" concept. What early frost means is your growing
the wrong vines for your area. You should be growing ones that ripen
in a shorter time frame. I'm sure "Paul the Regurgitator" would
disagree.
On Sep 26, 11:19 pm, jay <jforou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Paul E. Lehmann
> "what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
> can damage your crop."
>
> How does an early frost "damge" your vines? BTW, I've never believed
> in the "early frost" concept. What early frost means is your growing
> the wrong vines for your area. You should be growing ones that ripen
> in a shorter time frame. I'm sure "Paul the Regurgitator" would
> disagree.
The best wine is made from grapes that just fit into the growing season for
that particular variety.
Paul E. Lehmann
> Check this out.
> http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?article=1620&issue=59
>
> Notice the statement:
> "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter freezes
> that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on average, every
> seven to ten years.
>
> Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> warm spell. Something like this one.
>
>
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/pool/HO%20wi%20geneva%2003%2004%20version3.pdf
>
> Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not far
> from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is all
> dead.
Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
Where do you live? What varieties are you growing? How many vines do you
have?
doub...@hotmail.com
coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.
On Sep 27, 10:26 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" <plehmann_21...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> doubl...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Check this out.
> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?article=1620&issue=59
>
> > Notice the statement:
> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter freezes
> > that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on average, every
> > seven to ten years.
>
> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> > warm spell. Something like this one.
>
> http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/pool/HO%20wi%20geneva%2003...
Paul E. Lehmann
> Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
> coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.
You make no sense.
Are you taking your meds?
doub...@hotmail.com
of them I grow and where I live. You on the other hand have so many
conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
cold climate like Washington.
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/pool/rootstocks/nyrootstocks.html
Paul E. Lehmann
> I make total sense. What I say is independent of what I grow, how many
> of them I grow and where I live.
This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that you
are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful.
IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;
BUT:
to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the real
world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French do not
know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only way to go,
that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine, that mulch is
the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the secret to success
and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.
PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy B U T realize that you are
expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED environment in
what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.
On the other hand I encourage the following:
I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing wine
grapes to do the following:
Research the availabel literature
Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live
Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
varieties and how to grow these varieties.
Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
educational seminars.
If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or programming
or religion,etc.
jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thank You Paul for your good advise,
I actually started the WSU viticulture online courses today,
partially from your recomendations...though so far (two lectures) they
are more oriented toward the eastern WA growers.
The main reason (as I stated before) I want to use rootstocks is
actually to control vigor and in turn ripen friut earlier, this is
according to research done at the WSU Mt Vernon research facility
where they ripen Pinot Noir with around 1600 growing degrees .....by
the way the Puget Sound is not cold it is an extremely mild climate
the temp drops below freezing maybe a couple of times a year and the
ground never freezes. typical winter weather is 40F and raining if it
does freeze often everything is covered in ice which keeps plants from
damage....
jay
doub...@hotmail.com
".though so far (two lectures) they are more oriented toward the
eastern WA growers. "
IOW, they agree with doublesb.
doub...@hotmail.com
yearly vintages more than anything else. I had visions of grandeur
harvesting world class grapes and making world class wine. Well, what
I'm recommending to you is the result of over 10 years of experience
and research. I'm not trying to screw you, I'm trying to help you.
Paul is trying to help you too but he seems to have a myopic view of
viticulture. I sense he has very little other experience with plants
and logic. That is just my opinion. You only need to read the links I
posted about rootstock and "The Perfect Freeze" to see how the worlds
leading authorities on viticulture contridict themselves. In one
article Bob Pool wonders about the future of the FInger Lake's
vinifera because they were killed as a result of being grown on root
stock and in the next article recommends rootstock. I have seen first
hand the trouble and inflexibility of rootstock. Obviously you will do
what you want but you can't say you didn't have other points of view
bsides the party line that Paul will provide. As far as loosening
your soil, the best way to do it is get a backhoe and dig up the dirt
down to a level of 3 feet deep for every row you plan to grow. That
was advised to me and seemed like the right thing to do. I didn't do
it because of expense. You could also plant your vines with a posthole
digger and make sure you go down 3 feet with the hole. If you really
do have sandy loam there shouldn't be a problem as far as compaction
and also read the info on the web as far as the probability you'll
have phyloxera problems with sandy soil.
n Sep 28, 3:43 am, jay <jforou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
doub...@hotmail.com
You were wrong about wood chips, wrong about laterals, wrong about
bees, wrong about Brute trash cans ( most are NSF #2, food grade) ,
wrong about phyloxera being a bigger threat than cold as proven by
"The perfect freeze" and you contradict every other apect of
viticulture according to Lon Rombough. Now, you have given Jay advise
to contact the local viticulture gurus and they agree with me! How
much more wrong could you be?
> http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/pool/rootstocks/nyrootstoc...
doub...@hotmail.com
If you look at vines as an "investment" in the future you want your
investment to keep growing every year. What is lost in the rootstock
issue is the principal that is compounding yearly under the ground.
The root system. With rootstock that nest egg doesn't even resemble
what is above ground. If your vine is killed back to the graft, not
only do you lose the above ground vine but the below ground investment
is useless too. Viticulturists like Paul never mention that fact
because they don't think about it. The root system is the most
important part of the vine but becomes just an afterthought in the
rootstock debate. Here's a scenario to illustrate a "perfect storm".
You buy grafted vines and you plant them. Then you bust your ass for 4
years getting them to produce in the 4th year. Finally you have a year
or 2 of production from the vines. Don't forget, a vine doesn't hit
it's full potential until about the 10th year! That is the goal,
getting to the 10th year and beyond. Now you get a "perfect freeze" in
your 7th year. Not only do you lose everything with grafted vines, you
lose a 7 year root system that would never be damaged by a perfect
freeze if it was own rooted vines. If you grew own rooted vines, not
only would you be back in business in one year, you have a 7 year root
system which, in effect, means you still have a seven year old vine on
your way to the magic 10th year. If you have grafted vines, you start
from scratch basically putting you 7 years in the whole when it comes
to the root system. Which means it'll take tou 17 years to get to the
magic 10th year! WOW. Would anyone really want to take that chance in
a cold climate viticultural area? Not me. Now, if this doesn't make
you think, I don't know what will. In the above scenario, you could
end up cultivating, pruning and sparaying for 10 years and end up with
2 years of non-maximum harvest and starting on year 4 of 4 year old
vines. ( 4 years to grow, 2 years of harvest, killed, 4 years to
grow). Until you have culivated grapes and find out how much work it
is, it is hard for me to comprehend why viticulural gurus would
recommend any other way to grow grapes other that own-rooted in cold
climate areas.
doub...@hotmail.com
Global warming, while on the surface, would seem good for cold climate
areas, is actually really bad. What it will increase is the cold damge
caused by warm days preceding cold snaps. In these scenarios like "The
Perfect Freeze" the cold temps don't need to be as low as the
advertised kill temps of the variety. All varieties are vulnerable to
freezing temps preceded by warm temps. These type of scenarios have
actually caused most of the damage in the northeast the past decade.
As global warming increases and the probability of warm days in the
winter increases, the probability of this type of damage increases.
> ...
>
> read more »
Paul E. Lehmann
> Lets see Paul,
>
> You were wrong about wood chips,
Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention wood chip
mulch. He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University which
showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. There goes your two brix increase
theory - shot down by your own expert.
> wrong about laterals,
Not hardly, although laterals can contribute they can also be detrimental in
an overly vigorous vineyard and promote poor air circulation and hence
disease. The OP was referencing his overly vigorous vineyard.
> wrong about
> bees,
I remember saying that bees are attracted to damaged fruit such as bird
pecks or other predators. Do you disagree with this?
> wrong about Brute trash cans ( most are NSF #2, food grade) ,
Not all Rubbermaid Brute trash cans are food grade or suitable for
fermenting wine.
This was information I received FROM THE MANUFACTURER and was about a
particular Rubbermaid Trash can(s) that I was considering buying.
If you want to take the risk and poisin yourself, be my guest. For all
others, I suggest you call the manufacturer and ask specifically if the
particular Brute Trash can you are considering buying is suitable for
fermenting wine. There are other safer options available.
> wrong about phyloxera being a bigger threat than cold as proven by
> "The perfect freeze" and you contradict every other apect of
> viticulture according to Lon Rombough.
Lon Rombough is not against root stock. I suggest you read pages 169-73
There are certain rootstocks that make certain varieties MORE winter hardy.
In addition you can read the other benefits of rootstock if you bother to
read your source. His only criticism to rootstock vines is their
compartively higher cost than self rooted. This increased cost can be
recouped from other benefits.
He even includes a list of books on rootstocks in the Bibliography.
If you reference an "expert" it would serve you well to actually read what
the "expert" says.
> Now, you have given Jay advise
> to contact the local viticulture gurus and they agree with me! How
> much more wrong could you be?
I think Jay has a lot more on the ball and knows how to research the facts
and not listen to self proclaimed experts like yourself.
jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
different on that side of the state
doub...@hotmail.com
years? OK. What do I know? They're the experts.
jay
> No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
> different on that side of the state
though the do say that the advantages of own routed vines are cost,
and that there are easy methods of reproducing your vines by layering
and other methods and have a uniform crop with little investment....
BUT you can always regraft new scions to whatever rootstock you have
planted and replace your fuiting wood with any compatable vine.... but
yes Bob I agree recovery would be easier and possibly quicker
retraining new vigourous buds from self rooted vines.....I am not
concerned with this where I live though I appreciate your
contribution, thoughts on the subject and particularly the refrences
you provided.
WSU recommends rootstock as a preventive measure against disease and
for increasing or decreasing vigor, drought tolerance and tolerance to
salinity
They don’t completely disagree with you Bob but they do recommend
looking into the advantages of rootstock over the cost savings and of
vineyard establishment,
i did find out today that 101-14 is more drought tolerant and can
ripen earlier than 3309 ...(maybe) according to one lecture, does
anyone know if this is documented?
I started this thread seeking advice and I appreciate all
contributions especially ones that are well thought out , referenced,
from real personal experience that applies to the question at hand...I
don't appreciate nor will I listen to people I think are more
enthusiastic about their opinions than their research/or experience or
the soundness of their advise....in this case I appreciate you ( BOB )
providing research to support your opinions and respect your arguments
because of it.... the pissing match is just entertaining....and
generally good for testing the strength on an Idea anyway
....but I would ask people in general to be careful about giving
advise to those who ask without really knowing what you are talking
about, there is nothing worse than false profits and in some cases
can get people killed...and no I am not kidding, I do some welding
since I work on old motorcyles and a friend of mine took some advise
from someone to clean the materials to be welded with brake
cleaner....which reacted with the argon/electrode combo and nearly
killed him from poisonous gas...apparantly the guy who made the
recommendation never had actually used brake cleaner, but used carb
cleaner and thought it was the same stuff....almost killed him ....
rootstocks it’s going to be I think....in this part of the country you
can just stick cuttings in the wet unfrozen winter earth and in spring
you'll have vines...I can do that anytime at almost no cost.
doub...@hotmail.com
I give my opinion. That is it. That is what I think these boards are
about. I always remind myself that amateurs built the Ark and
professionals built the Titanic. That being said here is my opinion on
what you are doing.
Pinot Noir is the heartbreak grape. It requires alot of attention. I
have no experience with it but I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot
pole. The work most likely won't justify the time, money or the
result. You will have to spray a lot.
I like hybrids. At first I didn't but I do now. You can grow them own
rooted. I advise anyone starting a vineyard to grow them. They are
less maintenance and if you don't do this for a living you want time
to live your other life. There are many REALLY GOOD hybrids out there
now so, as a hobby I don't recommend any vinifera.
400 vines is a lot. I have 150. It'll take you AT LEAST 4 hrs to
backpack spray 400 vines.
Leave room for a car or ATV in your rows. 400 vines I think is too
much to backpack spray. You will find that eventually you'll be sick
of spraying especially Pinot Noir. If I had to do it all over again
I'd space my rows 10ft apart. I also would probably plant at 5 feet
within rows. It's the distance between rows that I think is the most
important to allow you to move around.
Regent looks like a good grape. I didn't research any of the other
ones but Regent sounds almost too good to be true.
Single wire High cordon is the least maintainance and easiest to
prune. Requires less wires. I use it on all my vines.
Wood Chip mulch. ;).
This hobby will take more of your time then you think.
Paul E. Lehmann
Just to prove that I am not against every thing you say; I agree with 90% of
what you just posted.
The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin are, in my
opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. The variety, self
rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in times
of draught. At least this is my experience and that of others in the
area. - perhaps I should mulch this one row :-)
If I had room, I would plant the following hybrids which are well suited to
the area in which I live; Chardonnel, Traminette, Seyval Blanc.
I dislike high wire. The reason I don't like it (and I do have three rows
of 25 vines each in it) are that it is very difficult to net. If birds are
a problem in your area, this is a big consideration.
The vines I do have on high wire are Chambourcin because of its eratic
growing behavior it is easier just to let them flop over from a high wire
cordon. I also have a row of Norton which also favors downward growth of
shoots. I have one row of Chardonnay that I am going to convert to VSP
because of the bird issue and the fact that Chardonnay loves to grow
vertical and is a relatively easy grape to trellis.
I agree with doublesb on the Pinot Noir issue and also the row width issue
as well as his statement that it is going to take you a lot longer than you
think to maintain.
I have two vineyards. One is in my back yard and consist of 110 vines of
about equal numbers of Merlot, Cabernet Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon.
I recently inherited a friends quarter acre vineyard (175 vines) out in the
country because he had to move to town because of health reasons. The new
owners did not want to maintain the vineyard, did not want wine, they just
wanted someone to maintain the vineyard and make it look nice (works for
me)
Out there (Pleasant Valley, MD) I am growing Nebiollo (don't like growing
this grape even though it is my first year of managing this vineyard - low
producer and late ripening); Chardonnay (75 vines) I like growing this
variety because it grows upright and is a charm to grow, one row of Voigner
(seems to be doing ok) one row of Norton, also known as Cynthiana (hate
this grape - requires high wire and fruit ripens VERY late and has small
clusters with high pH and high TA) and one row of self rooted Chambourcin.
Chambourcin is sulphur sensitive so you can not use it on Chambourcin OR
Norton.
All together I have about 285 vines. If I were not retired, I would have a
VERY difficult time maintaining this many vines.
Harvest time is here and I am fatigued with harvesting. The Chardonnay
produces a LOT of grapes (going to have to correct this next year)
Paul
doub...@hotmail.com
are, in my
opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. The variety, self
rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in
times
of draught. "
There you go. A reason to wood chip mulch! I grow own rooted
Chambourcin. It wasn't doing very well in certain areas of the
vineyard until I mulched the whole vineyard. Try it Paul, you'll like
it. It does take work to move those chips in there but it'll be worth
it and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I don't like Seyval Blanc from the north east. Never had one that I
liked but if you like that "grass" type wine style it probably is
good. I LOVE Traminnette. Am growing some and is tough to kill ;).
One other thing I think is good in a grape and Paul reminded me of it
is cluster size. Harvesting large clusters is much more pleasant than
harvesting many small ones. I have no idea how it would do in
Washington.
Another thing I do yearly now is prune late do delay bud break. I was
skeptical at first because I thought it was BS but it does delay it a
lot.
On Sep 28, 7:34 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" <plehmann_21...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Doug Miller
>"The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin
>are, in my
>opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. The variety, self
>rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in
>times
>of draught. "
>
>There you go. A reason to wood chip mulch!
Ummmm..... no. A reason to mulch. Not a reason to mulch _with wood chips_. Or
perhaps you were unaware that other materials, which do not rot or support the
growth of fungus, can be used as mulch?
doub...@hotmail.com
> In article <f44fc0c0-0380-4084-8540-0412330f1...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, "Or
perhaps you were unaware that other materials, which do not rot or
support the
growth of fungus, can be used as mulch? "
LOL. That's why it's good. Because it rots and promotes the growth of
fungus.ROFLMAO!
Paul E. Lehmann
> "The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin
> are, in my
> opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. The variety, self
> rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in
> times
> of draught. "
>
> There you go. A reason to wood chip mulch! I grow own rooted
> Chambourcin. It wasn't doing very well in certain areas of the
> vineyard until I mulched the whole vineyard. Try it Paul, you'll like
> it. It does take work to move those chips in there but it'll be worth
> it and you'll see what I'm talking about.
It is a 175 foot length of row. That is a LOT of wood chips.
Right now, this vineyard is not cultivated. It has grass in the isles and
under the vines. It is not showing draught stress. We have had PLENTY of
water this year.
I screwed up by spraying a small amount of sulphur in my spray mix and the
temps were not hot when I sprayed it but the leaf margins on the
Chambourcin are definately showing scorch. The Chambourcin also has what
appears to be Rupestris speckle OR, as one grower says it may be Ozone
damage. Chambourcin is suppose to be an indicator of Ozone.
>
> I don't like Seyval Blanc from the north east. Never had one that I
> liked but if you like that "grass" type wine style it probably is
> good. I LOVE Traminnette. Am growing some and is tough to kill ;).
I made a Seyval Blanc last year that got rave reviews. I think it has the
potential to being a good blending grape. It is a prolific producer and
can be cropped quite heavily without affecting quality.
I also love Traminnette. I don't grow (no room left) any but I have a
source a few miles from me over in Northern Virginia. He gives me
commercial rates for the grapes since I used to work for a commercial
grower.
The grower said "Do not cold soak because It can make the wine bitter" but
this has not been my experience. Two years ago I cold soaked overnight and
the wine was terrific. Last year, I did not cold soak overnight and the
aromatics were almost absent. Needless to say, I cold soaked this year
and I can already tell that the aromatics are there in full force.
I also cold soaked overnight my Chardonnay and Voigner. Mainly it was
because of a logistics problem but I think it is going to be good. I have
some Chardonnay left to harvest so I am going to do the unmentionable and
experiment by actually fermenting it on the skins. I am going to harvest
Thursday and I know the pH and TA are going to be outside the range for a
typical "White" so it is worth an experiment.
>
> One other thing I think is good in a grape and Paul reminded me of it
> is cluster size. Harvesting large clusters is much more pleasant than
> harvesting many small ones. I have no idea how it would do in
> Washington.
>
> Another thing I do yearly now is prune late do delay bud break. I was
> skeptical at first because I thought it was BS but it does delay it a
> lot.
I may try it also this coming season.
shbailey
> Gentleman,
> I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> me.
> I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW
>
> I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> can adjust m order through Jan.
>
> I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments
>
> I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> vine...
>
> any thoughts?
>
> Jason
Jason,
Vinifera needs to be on rootstock. Period. It is not impossible that
you might see freeze damage at some point, but you will without
question eventually see phyloxerra to some degree. Freeze damage to
graft unions is usually manifested by crown gall infections. You
probably don't have the bacteria that causes it in your area.
Phyloxerra don't thrive in very sandy soil, but they are all over the
country. Even if you avoided a heavy infection that killed your vines
quickly, they will eventually cause enough damage to shorten the life
of your plants. If you grow hybrids, you might be OK own rooted,
although nematodes are also an issue. The guy at Hollywood Hills
Vineyards knows more about Regent than anybody in the country,
particularly in that area. Listen to him regarding Regent (and Pinot
Noir).
Do be particular on the source of your rootstock. A few years ago,
there was a lot of rootstock sold that was infected with "black goo",
which could be the cause of the dead Chardonnay that was mentioned.
Make sure you carefully consider if 3 x 6 spacing is truly what you
want. Maybe that is what you have to do to get the number of vines
you want on your available land, but it is tight. Your effective
clearance between rows will end up being around 4 feet, and that is if
you keep everything trained really well. I heard a talk by a vineyard
consultant who is currently recommending 4 x 7 spacing with double
trunks and single cane pruned (per trunk). The short canes were used
because cordons were considered a repository for disease organisms.
Good Luck,
Stephen
jay
Well the goal here is to get enough for a barrel of Regent and test
out some of the other red grapes that grow here, possibly get a barrel
of mixed "Pinot Type"
I will be doing this basically full time while being a stay at home
dad and I am going from an extremely high intesity high stress high
commitment high op tempo proffession and studying and hard work are
not an issue....my wife thinks there is no way I won't be bored out of
my mind being a stay at home dad and will be contracting in indonesia
within the year....I can't lose the bet!! I need something to keep me
home!!!
if I am successful in this test vineyard I would plan to clear enough
of my ten acres for a commercial planting.
Hollywood Hills recommended planting 200 vines of Regent to get a
barrel and 300 to get a barrel of Pinot but from the vineyard planning
lectures at WSU the "formulas" come out to less than half of that
recommendation.... any thoughts? I would ask Hollywood Hill but I know
he is busy as heck right now.
I think maybe space out my vines to 5x7? I wanted to close plant the
Pinot types to reduce vigor but Maybe that was too close and I might
reduce the number of vines to the minumum to accomplish my goals.
as for spraying the majority of the vines are going to Regent and
according to local growers don't need to be sprayed, I will have less
then 100 pinot but nevertheless I will space out vines to allow for
the need to use a vehicle between rows.
doub...@hotmail.com
LOL. Not really. ;). I have over 1200 feet of vineyard all mulched
with wood chips. I do a little at a time. If you do 10 vines a day it
would take you a couple weeks and you have all winter down there in
tropical Maryland. I use a wheel barrel and chips are light. It's just
like a walk in the park. Anyway, mulch 5 vines and see if you see any
difference. Do you mow under the vines or do you let the grass grow?
On Sep 28, 9:36 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" <plehmann_21...@yahoo.com>
> ...
>
> read more »
doub...@hotmail.com
The French own rooted for hundreds of years and they seemed to get
away with it. There are nurseries in WA that sell own rooted vinifera.
I bought some. WA doesn't have crown gall? Cold damage could involve
Crown gall but some freezes have nothing to do with it.
Paul E. Lehmann
> "It is a 175 foot length of row. That is a LOT of wood chips. "
>
> LOL. Not really. ;). I have over 1200 feet of vineyard all mulched
> with wood chips. I do a little at a time. If you do 10 vines a day it
> would take you a couple weeks and you have all winter down there in
> tropical Maryland. I use a wheel barrel and chips are light. It's just
> like a walk in the park. Anyway, mulch 5 vines and see if you see any
> difference. Do you mow under the vines or do you let the grass grow?
mow and weed eat.
doub...@hotmail.com
Ever girdle a vine? Now there's a good reason to own root vines.
On Sep 29, 8:10 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" <plehmann_21...@yahoo.com>
> ...
>
> read more »
Doug Miller
>On Sep 28, 9:02=A0pm, spamb...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>> In article <f44fc0c0-0380-4084-8540-0412330f1...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups=
>..com>, "Or
>perhaps you were unaware that other materials, which do not rot or
>support the
>growth of fungus, can be used as mulch? "
>
>LOL. That's why it's good. Because it rots and promotes the growth of
>fungus.ROFLMAO!
Promoting the growth of fungus is incompatible with promoting the growth of
wine grapes. Or any other fruit crops. The purpose of mulch is to retain water
in the soil, and retard the growth of weeds.
Doug Miller
>"Vinifera needs to be on rootstock. Period."
>
>The French own rooted for hundreds of years and they seemed to get
>away with it.
That's because phylloxera didn't exist in Europe until it was inadvertently
imported from North America in the mid-19th century. They can't "get away with
it" now.
Here, educate yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_French_Wine_Blight
doub...@hotmail.com
wood chip
mulch. He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University
which
showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. There goes your two brix
increase
theory - shot down by your own expert. "
Paul,
Not trying to start another arguement here but what does page 61 of
The Grape Grower say about Mychorhizal fungus and phyloxerra? I don't
have the book.
On Sep 28, 11:01 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" <plehmann_21...@yahoo.com>
Paul E. Lehmann
> "Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention
> wood chip
> mulch. He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University
> which
> showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. There goes your two brix
> increase
> theory - shot down by your own expert. "
>
> Paul,
>
> Not trying to start another arguement here but what does page 61 of
> The Grape Grower say about Mychorhizal fungus and phyloxerra? I don't
> have the book.
On page 61 he states:
"An effect of mychorhizal fungus fungi that could bear on the control of
phylloxera is the ability of the fungi to stimulate root
development." .... "Since phylloxera harms the vines by killing or stunting
roots they feed on, stimulating the vine to produce many new roots could
help offset the harm of these sucking insects."
He discusses the use of compost to increase Mychorhizal Fungus but I have
not found a reference to mulch or bark mulch to do this.
On page 231 he discusses winter protection in zones 4 or colder and
mentions "laying them on the ground, whether to be covered with mulch or to
be pinned down to allow snow to cover and insulate them."
In discussing phylloxera he states on page 128 that "this pest prefers
heavy, clay soils. It is not a pest on sandy soils."
doub...@hotmail.com
"I emailed Lon Rombough, the author of "The Grape Grower - A Guide to
Organic Viticulture" about the subject of mulch. Here is his reply:
"The type of mulch makes a difference. Wood chips are a lot different
than chipped tree prunings, such as tree services produce. Chipped
pruning material is a mix of chip/chunk sizes and contains leaf matter
and ramial wood (small twigs). Such material has enough nitrogen to
keep it from taking N from the soil, but enough large material that it
decomposes slowly when used as mulch. This is a lot different than
using straight wood chips, which DO take N from the soil and can cake
on the soil. Want proof? Pile up chipped prunings and they will
heat like compost and break down to a dark humus-like material in a
matter of weeks. Wood chips need lots of nitrogen and moisture added
to compost anywhere near that way.
In the vineyard such chipped prunings will last two to three years as
mulch. They provide the humic acids that soil flora needs and promote
more even levels of moisture and nutrients.
Granted, results will vary with different soils, and it's not that
easy to get enough chipped tree prunings, but results are favorable in
most conditions.
All I can say is to try it on an area of the vineyard and see.
Anything that helps the life of the soil will aid the vines in the
long run.
-Lon Rombough
NEW grape pruning video: http://www.bunchgrapes.com/dvd.html View a
short, low resolution clip here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q58zFY0B1M
Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, at
http://www.bunchgrapes.com Winner of the Garden Writers Association
"Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003."
and in response to a follow up question about mulch compounding issues
with excessive vigor:
"That depends some on the soil. Generally vines will grow better
with mulch because moisture stays more constant in the soil. Without
mulch moisture fluctuates more, which will stress and slow vines more
than constant or gradually decreasing moisture.
-Lon"
In "The Grape Grower", Lon references a Cornell study where the best
results for both moisture retention and grape yield/sugar was from
planting rye in the fall, which was killed by Roundup in the spring
and left on the ground as a mulch. "
Well, you know my experiences with wood chips. It doesn't matter and
obviously Lon has no experience with them and I have more than he
does. I will tell everyone for the umpteenth time that wood chips
produce mychorrhizal fungus and earthworms while regulating moisture.
The key to the wood chips is the good fungus that it produces along
with all the other benefits.
On Sep 29, 10:56 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" <plehmann_21...@yahoo.com>
doub...@hotmail.com
I've personally been to Cornell trial vineyards. What they use as
"mulch" is black screening. Not sure if that is the word for it but it
is not plastic, it is like a synthetically woven black cloth. Any
research out of that type of mulch mayshow reduced brix because the
"mulch they use provides nothing but weed control and mositure
retention. It doesn't inhibit water inundation and provides no fungus,
worms, soil structure.....nothing but moisture retention and weed
control. Wood chips are head and shoulders above that mulch.
> NEW grape pruning video:http://www.bunchgrapes.com/dvd.htmlView a
> short, low resolution clip here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q58zFY0B1M
> Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, athttp://www.bunchgrapes.com Winner of the Garden Writers Association
> ...
>
> read more »
doub...@hotmail.com
http://www.tandjenterprises.com/biovam_cal_farmer.htm
Wood chips are cheaper than biovam and better for the soil.
> ...
>
> read more »
spud
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:45:30 -0700 (PDT), doub...@hotmail.com wrote:
>Another thought I left out.
>
>Global warming...
doub...@hotmail.com
aren't you growing grapes in the northwest too? How's your vineyard
doing? what are you growing?
On Sep 29, 10:18 pm, spud <midni...@theoasis.com> wrote:
> http://www.sou.edu/geography/jones/Publications/JonesGeotimes.pdf
>
jay
spud
trunks or just established this year with more going in next. Give it
4 - 5 years or so and I'll be full of lies. LOL!!!
Steve
Oregon
tdjudd
On Sep 24, 11:48 pm, jay <jforou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Gentleman,
> I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> me.
> I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW
>
> I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> can adjust m order through Jan.
>
> I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments
>
> I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> vine...
>
> any thoughts?
>
> Jason
a few thoughts,
we are in the northwest. our climate is not the same as the east
coast. we do not use hybrids here. own rooted is the norm, not
grafted. but you know that.
you on the other hand have chosen to plant a vineyard in an area not
known as a growing area. and, you have chosen to plant pinot rather
than rhone or bordeaux varietals. to the south of you the Oregonians
plant pinot, to the west of you they plant very little. Woodenville
has lots of wineries, very few vineyards. far to your east and over
the mountains is a different growing world. to your north (BC) they
freeze and specialize in ice wine.
a few nuts and bolts questions:
what are the heat units on your property?
have you done a 30 year degree day study of you plot of ground?
how much slope is there?
will the cold air run off past the vines?
are you using drip?
Why did you choose those clones?
are they selected for your growing degree days?
you are directly north of willamette valley, the home of pinot. how do
your choices match up with those of your oregon neighbors?
my personal experience is the need for more than one grape to blend
for a better wine. pomard, dijon, and . . ?
they each add their own component, nose, body, color.
Find a grower mentor nearby, even if that is on Bainbridge Island.
Join WWAGG. Attend seminars and clinics.
plant own rooted vinifera based on your own unique growing region.
Have you talked to Tom Judkins?
ted
doub...@hotmail.com
Are you growing grafted? Pinot Noir?
doub...@hotmail.com
coast. we do not use hybrids here. own rooted is the norm, not
grafted. but you know that."
Ted,
What do you mean? Are all the vines in Washington own-rooted?
tdjudd
my comments were to and for the person who started this thread and
asked the questions.
I am happy to identify myself to the group.
I am not interested in debating wine growing from behind a screen.
I make wine in the northwest. I grow wine in the northwest. I live
here.
good luck with your career in debate.
ted
jay
Thanks for the thorough reply!
I already own this property so that’s why I am growing here, I am a
red wine lover, and actually my favorites have been Medoc/Haut Medocs
which is what I was introduced to my as "great wine" as a youngster by
my Parisian uncle. Now I had NO idea anyone could grow red wine in the
Puget Sound at all, I was actually looking at growing Hops and in
doing research for Hops I discovered people were growing red wine
grapes there!! not many, but some...and well its always been a dream
of mine to grow grapes and make wine from them I am about to have alot
of time at home ....so here we are
ALL my planning so far has been based off of G. Moultons work, at
WSU's Vernon research facilities growing red wine vinifera at that
location. Mt Vernon has about 1600 growing degrees there and he ripens
Pinot as well as other grapes from northern France, Germany , as well
as Swiss grapes.
The other person that has been a great source of advise that I am
following is Steve at Hollywood Hill and I am planning to offer him as
much free labor in the vineyard and winery as he wants in exchange for
mentorship....I wish he was a little closer but he is the closest I
know of growing Puget Sound Pinot ad making wine from it.
I have about 2000 growing degrees in a season, and about 200 growing
days above 50 but I have not done a 30 year study, (not sure where to
look for one... point me in the right direction if you can) my land is
flat (maybe one degree slope) in very deep sandy loam, about 1/2 mile
from a large lake, I don't have a real cold sink for frost, I don't
think cold air will drain much, but it certainly isn't a collecting
area for cold air either I am not at the bottom of a valley but the
land is flat...
as for irrigation I plan on using drip the first year, maybe the
second but not as the vines mature.
as for the clones I chose , they are all reds that are either the
earliest ripening Pinot clone (Fruheburgunder), or crosses and
relatives of Pinot that are even earlier ripening or more disease
resisistant like Garanoir and ST. Laurent. Regent I chose because its
easy to grow and it will be my "fallback" if I can't get the more
finicky varieties to ripen/ produce (they ripen Regent in London for
goodness sake!). Agria I chose as a blending tool because its a cool
climate teinturier, with thick tanic skins which can produce a great
lite sweet "red" if pressed early and alot of tannin if prodced like a
traditional red wine.
IF I am successful with the grapes I have chosen my next step would be
to plant 777 and 667 IOT develop my Pinot. I have decided on 3309 as
roostock for all my grapes IOT follow G. Moultons recommendations and
ripen up to a week earlier with that rootstock...if I have no problems
ripening certain grapes at my sight I might try some cuttings on their
own roots for future plantings.
I have not talked to Tom Judkins, I have made my initial order with
Cloudmountain Farms, they carry the varieties and rootstocks
appropriate for the Puget Sound area...of course other than the Auto
confirmation they haven't responded to my emails to revise my order.
Its a busy time of year so I will give them a few weeks but they dont
have a deposit from me yet so if Tom has what I need I could still
order from him.
Thanks again ted...let me know what you think...
Paul E. Lehmann
>
> ALL my planning so far has been based off of G. Moultons work, at
> WSU's Vernon research facilities growing red wine vinifera at that
> location. Mt Vernon has about 1600 growing degrees there and he ripens
> Pinot as well as other grapes from northern France, Germany , as well
> as Swiss grapes.
I have been keeping track of growing degree days for about 4 years now. I
think this is a tool but not the only answer. I think hours of sunlight is
as important or more important.
This year I have about 3400 growing degree days thus far but the reds are
struggling to ripen with a reasonable brix. Last year at this time I had
300 growing degree days less and the reds ripened great.
This year in the Mid Atlantic has seen a cool July followed by a warm August
followed by a cool, cloudy, damp, misty rainy September. Even though we
have had the Growing degree days cumulative for the year, there has been a
noticeable lack of sunshine. Hopefully your vineyard area is free of
shade and in somewhat of a raid shadow.
> The other person that has been a great source of advise that I am
> following is Steve at Hollywood Hill and I am planning to offer him as
> much free labor in the vineyard and winery as he wants in exchange for
> mentorship....I wish he was a little closer but he is the closest I
> know of growing Puget Sound Pinot ad making wine from it.
I did the same thing. After I retired, I worked for a consultant
winegrower, and wine maker. I started off working for free but after about
a month, one of his clients noticed I was a hard worker and put me on the
payroll. I soon had more duties and responsibilities on my own. It was
great experience but be careful because some may take advantage of
the "free labor".
After I broke my big toe one year cleaning out a fermentation bin (picked it
up to drain out water and it slipped out of my hands and landed on my
foot), I decided that I wanted to keep winegrowing as a hobby and on a LOT
smaller scale than commercial level.
It sounds like you are doing great research and all the things you should be
doing. My only further advice is not to underestimate the amount of labor
involved. The first couple years are not bad but once you put the vines on
the fruiting wire, it gets to be a major factor.
Good luck and keep us informed
Paul
jay
he doesnt have the grapes I need so Cloud Mountain it is...
jay
> I checked out Tom Judkins and what he offers according to his websight
> he doesnt have the grapes I need so Cloud Mountain it is...
Thanks again Paul..
I am not too worried about sunshine Wa summers are dry with long
days....its just got be picked before it starts rainin and foggin in
Oct because it doesnt stop until March!
tdjudd
more later, but here is a weather link.
http://ippc2.orst.edu/WA/index.html
I personally start with above 50 and below 95 to calculate degree
days.
ted
tdjudd
> Gentleman,
> I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> me.
> I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW
>
> I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> can adjust m order through Jan.
>
> I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments
>
> I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> vine...
>
> any thoughts?
>
> Jason
here is the growing degree day calculator for Yelm, WA
http://ippc2.orst.edu/risk/models?glnk=1&span=20&station=C6829
ted
http://ippc2.orst.edu/risk/models?glnk=1&span=20&station=C6829
jay
ok so i am formulating the plan, sorry if this is boring anyone but
you guys are a big help getting the plan squared away.
I have tried recently to use that very calculator and without
successful outputs thanks for sending the results ted, 1920.6 growing
degrees it is. I was guessing at around 2000 by averaging a map I have
that has centralia WA at 2100 and Puyallup WA at 1800, but some hard
numbers are nice.
ok so with hard facts in place for growing degrees from Ted here are
the fine wine grapes I can ripen.
according to my studies I should be able to ripen, Garanoir, Rondo,
Pinot Noir( Precoce) , the Dijon clones, Agria, Regent, Zweigelt, and
St Laurent, my eventual goal is to start a small Garagiste Winery
devoted to maybe one or two wines, Pinot Noir, Regent, and maybe a
Blended wine. Any thoughts on the choices?
I was thinking of getting enough for a barrel of Regent, and plant a
selection of the others to see what I can grow, what does well, with
the goal of working up to a barrel of Pinot.
what do you think of these numbers?
140 / Regent
70 / Pinot P
35 / 777
35 / St Laurent
35 / Rondo
35 / Agria
35 / Zweigelt
all on 3309, even though 101-14 might contibute to earlier ripening
even more than 3309 by controlling vigor , 3309 will reduce my need
for water I think.
I dropped Garanoir even though its the first to ripen I think it
contributes little in wine quality and I replaced it with Zweigelt
which ripens a little later but makes a better wine...(according to
the books)
the Regent and Rondo are hybrids and the "fallback" the others are to
make Pinot and similair reds, I realize that these grapes would need
to expand in numbers to about 200 Regent and 300 Pinot to get to a
barrel of each, but I will expand as I go...the others are for
blending and making a St Laurent blend.
is this too many varieties?
jay
Paul E. Lehmann
Keep in mind in your calculations that you need enough wine to keep your
barrels topped up. Some of the barreled wine will be lost due to ullage and
you need to account for that.
tdjudd
The right wine for you is the one you like.
For personal use there are no wrong wines.
But, for even a small garagiste winery you need to think of
marketability.
Making small lots of different wines is fun. It gives you plenty to do
in your spare time. And you have an interesting mix of wines to
consume during the year. But, ask yourself, are the wines you are
planning to grow, the wines you purchase when you go to your favorite
wine shop?
Before I planted any vines I would spend some serious time in local
wine shops asking what people in your local area buy. What are the
wines they seek out? What WA and OR wines sell? In other words, what
is your local wine market? Do any of the wine shops (your potential
retail outlets) stock Garanoir, Rondo, Pinot Noir (Precoce) , the
Dijon clones, Agria, Regent, Zweigelt, and St Laurent?
A friend and wine maker planted Zweigelt because he likes it. It is
good that he still likes it because it does not sell well and he has
lots for his own consumption. It is not a name people here recognize
and seek out. Nor are Regent, Rondo or a St Laurent blend. If you were
in a growing region where vinifera will not grow, and the local wine
buyers were familiar with the grapes you have on your list, I would
not hesitate to plant the vines you have selected. But I do not
believe that to be the case in Yelm. A standard barrel yields 24*-
cases. You may have a lot of wine to drink, alone.
ted
Paul E. Lehmann
That is a good point.
Another point is that when you start thinking marketability, sweet sells.
This is not saying that you should make all your wines sweet but I guarantee
you that it will sell.
I know, winemakers are horrified at the idea of making a sweet wine - BUT -
a lot of young inexperienced wine drinkers like a sweet wine and those few
wineries that do make it, see it fly off their shelves while the purists
sit on inventory.
In short, if it is a hobby for you and friends and family, make what you
like BUT if you are interested in marketing - make what OTHERS like or
think they like because they have not tried all there is to try.
Paul
jay
I cant go to a wine shop to see what sells I am in Sulu Philippines
hangin out with my team, monkeys, Phil Marines dodging falling
coconuts and everything else the locals send our way...be here till
feb or I would be helping someone pick and crush and asking them dumb
questions instead of you kind gentlemen ( if any ladies chime in
ladies and gentlemen)...I know the answere anyway
there are some whites...but since i drink so little of them I cant
justify making any yet...
basically, Pinot Noir is really the only recognized red wine I can
grow, period end of story....and frankly the Average wine drinker
doesnt drink it....what most people drink in Yelm is Yellow Tail cab
or merlot..and Bud Light ...not that there is anything wrong with
that.
I can't grow any other red grape that sells.. its the hardest to grow
on my list and I would hate to plant 300 vines for it to all mildew
and die my first year...or not ripen fully every year...or at least
most years.
St Laurent has a small occult following among those that know it and
has many times been blended with Pinot Noir, not in modern Burgundy
but it moved to Austria from there or possibly Alsace via some crazy
french monks....I think it has a future BUT 35 vines it is for now
because you have to be a real wino to know it...so it wont sell
Regent is being successfully commercially produced and sold by
Hollywood Hills and is the easiest growing grape that produces a full
bodied wine...there are a few acres commercially planted that are
under contract but...maybe I should think more carefully about
planting alot of it....its just that it WILL produce when Pinot
wont...and someone is selling some.
for commercial purposes Pinot Noir is the only answer in Yelm for
sellable estate wine...of course i could buy grapes from eastern wa
but I want to concentrate on one wine to begin with.
the rest of the grapes I just want to have fun with, almost all of
which are easier to grow or they ripen earlier than Pinot....but Pinot
is the only commercialy viable option I am sure of that.
Paul.... my planning numbers are 200 vines of Regent and 300 of Pinot
to keep a barrel topped off, be able to drop fruit, account for some
losses etc...I think that is on the safe side.
As for sweet....fortunately (unfortunately) I will never be able to
make the extremely popular BIG SWEET overoaked wines people find in
the hot dry places like california..I will have to go after those
moody picky aloof elitists that like lighter styled Pinot...(myself
included)
Ted...So is this what you were trying to drag out of me?
cut the regent and plant pinot?
Jay
shbailey
You are wise 1) to consider Regent, and 2) to not put all your eggs in
the Pinot Noir basket. Looking to the future, the low spray
requirements of Regent may put you in a good position if environmental
restrictions increase or there is more demand for wine with fewer
chemicals to grow (both very possible). Also, if those fall rains
start a little early, the Pinot Noir will rot and you will have
nothing that year.
Regarding sweet wines, is in illegal in Washington to add sugar for
commercial wines as it is in California? If not, don't discount the
market for sweet wines. In the mid-west and east where hybrids
(including Concord and its derivatives) are common, sweet wines are
among the best sellers for local wineries. In the case of labrusca
hybrids (i.e. Concord), sugar is necessary both before and after
fermentation to make a good wine.
Stephen
Paul E. Lehmann
I did not know that California had laws against adding sugar; not doubting
your word but just curious as to why then they are allowed to water down
their must to reduce Brix.
At the commercial winery I worked at after retirement here in the Mid
Atlantic, the best and fastest selling wine was a white wine with about 3%
residual sugar added post sterile filtering and prior to bottling.
It was a blend of Pinot Gris, Traminette and Reisling.
The owner of the winery hated to make sweet wine, but hey, it sold a LOT
faster than his other wines.
He also insisted on making a dry "Alsacion" style Riesling while his
competers made their Riesling with some residual sugar and outsold him.
I do not ever care to go the commercial route because in order to survive in
the business, I would be forced to make a wine that sold and sold fast and
not especially something that I enjoyed individually.
tdjudd
You are getting lots of great advise here. My comments were intended
to get you to take a close look at what you want. IMHO wine making is
an art born in passion. Planting your own vineyard, waiting for the
vines to mature, harvesting the grapes, waiting for them to turn into
good wine, can be an act of masochism. It takes many years! To be
successful, whether for personal or professional consumption, you have
to to have patience and really like what you are doing.
I did not make white wine for my first few years. But every time I got
set to open a bottle of wine with dinner and she with whom I share my
life would ask, is it another red? I decided it was time to learn.
There really are times and places for a good white wine.
Sweet? Good commercial suggestion. A friend of mine makes a "white
pinot" and thinks of it as a misuse of a noble grape, BUT, it sells
better than his award winning pinot noir. He holds his nose all the
way to the bank. "As much as I don't like it, it pays all the utility
bills in the winery".
A few more rambling thoughts regarding growing and making choices.
You are surrounded by wineries. most of whom do not grow their own
fruit. One way to add to your mix and speed up the process of wine
making could be for you to purchase a few batches of grapes and
practice the art of wine making while waiting for your vineyard to
mature. 1200 Lbs of grapes have yielded enough for me to make a good
barrel with enough left over for two years of topping juice.
One macro bin to transport, another to destem into, then used as
fermenters can get you started. Use one of the neighborhood presses to
squeeze your juice into a barrel.
Try it, you will learn, if you like it.
http://maritimefruit.wsu.edu/WineGrapes07.html
a pretty good resource, but use with caution. I love academics who
give advice, but don't grow or make wine. pick and choose what is best
for you, and remember what you paid for the advice we all offer so
freely.
ted
doub...@hotmail.com
1. The french are good at blends and they sell plenty bottles of wine
in which you have no idea what grape is in there. The french have
mastered blending. That is an option, make blends or even pure
varietals and just give them a catchy name and label. They'll sell,
especially if they have sugar. When you go to a winery, ask what their
best selling wine is. I do all the time and they always tell me it's
the sweet stuff. I like all types of wine. I like the sweet too,
especially in the summer. Cataba is a big seller with the women. I
think it's the color and sugar. Don't fight the market and don't
listen to any wine snob who pretends they don't like sugar. It's sorta
like McDonalds, billions served but everyone claims to hate it.
jay
It is legal to add sugar in WA so that is an option.
Also WA varietal wine only needs to have 75% of that variety...so
there are options there as well.
I plan on making wine when I get home by ordering some frozen grapes,
and then fresh grapes every year from then on until my own come in.
maybe I should plant at least one white, and explore whites more...I
don't dislike white wine its just that when it’s a good time for a
white wine, like a nice summer afternoon I'll drink a hoppy IPA and my
wife eats chocolate and wants to know why I don't become a
chocolateer.
Thanks for all the advice guys; I am taking it in....of course this is
for the trial vineyard anyway so I have time before I can clear the
other 8 acres anyway.
Jason
Paul E. Lehmann
> Well,
>
> It is legal to add sugar in WA so that is an option.
>
> Also WA varietal wine only needs to have 75% of that variety...so
> there are options there as well.
>
> I plan on making wine when I get home by ordering some frozen grapes,
> and then fresh grapes every year from then on until my own come in.
>
> maybe I should plant at least one white, and explore whites more...I
> don't dislike white wine its just that when it’s a good time for a
> white wine, like a nice summer afternoon I'll drink a hoppy IPA and my
> wife eats chocolate and wants to know why I don't become a
> chocolateer.
I used to make only reds and then I discovered Traminette and the Pinot Gris
grown in the area in which I live. I don't know if you are able to grow
Pinot Gris in your area but I believe you might. It is an early ripening
grape.
The whites are VERY rewarding to make. They are ready to drink very quickly
and you have something to show for your efforts while your reds age. I
harvest whites in September and am drinking them by February. The reds I
make really need about 18 months to start coming around nicely. Also you
can experiment with whites by blending and making non traditional whites.
For example, I do not like the oaky, buttery, barrel aged Chardonnay but I
really do enjoy the crisp, non oaky, non ML Chardonnay.
Paul
shbailey
wrote:
"I used to make only reds and then I discovered Traminette and the
Pinot Gris
grown in the area in which I live. I don't know if you are able to
grow
Pinot Gris in your area but I believe you might. It is an early
ripening
grape. "
I had a fabulous Virginia Traminette the other day. It was spicy
fruity with a little residual sugar. I'm not sure that it will ripen
in your area, but it might and would be worth checking on. It is 1/2
Gewurztraminer.
Stephen
jay
Here are the WSU recommendations; Siegerrebe, Madeleine Angevine,
Muller-Thurgau and Pinot Gris other lesser known posibilities,
Iskorko, Burmunk , Ortega, Optima, Sylvaner, Auxerrois Blanc and if I
consistantly get above 1900 every year...Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc,
Red Traminer ( not sure if thats the same as your Traminette...
shbailey
jay
Thank you for the link, I think if I choose one white it will have to
be Siegerrebe, which is a cross of Madeleine Angevine x Gewurztraminer
and sounds very much like Traminette and is considered by many to be
the signiture white of the Puget Sound AVA...
doub...@hotmail.com
be Siegerrebe, which is a cross of Madeleine Angevine x Gewurztraminer
and sounds very much like Traminette and is considered by many to be
the signiture white of the Puget Sound AVA"
Conformists make great viticulturists. You'll fit right in.
Paul E. Lehmann
No, Red Traminer is not the same.
As I said before, Growing Degree Days is a guide but days of sunshine and
amount of sunshine are equally as important. For example, we almost always
get the Growing Degree Days for Cabernet Sauvignon where I live, but it
does not always rippen fully even though the Growing Degree Days are there.
The reason, lack of sunshine for some years.
You said that your summers are sunny and dry so perhaps you can take that
into consideration if you want to "push the envelope" on varieties to
consider.
Here in Northern Virginia and Central Maryland, The following harvest days
(give or take a few days on either side, of course) are, Pinot Gris usually
harvested around September 7th, Traminette is usually harvested around
September 20 and Chardonnay around September 25th.
So, it would seem that if Pinot Gris is a recommended variety and Chardonnay
is on the extreme end of your possible growing season, that Traminette
being in the middle, might very well fit it.
This is just something to consider. It sounds like you have plenty of room
and Traminette can be grown self rooted, has beautiful clusters, produces
ideal chemistries for wine production. It is one of the easiest wines I
make; simply pick, crush, press and ferment; no additions of anything
needed.
jay
We were writing at the same time so I missed your comment, I
appreciate the recommendation and definately will consider it,
I might see what I can ripen, steve at hollywood hills thinks Pinot
Gris might be borderline for 1900 so I might try it first, but if it
is as great as you say it is
I might have to look into it....I think I might have to drink some
white wine before I start growing and making it...to see what I like.
We have long days of light in the summers its light at 10:00 at night
at my old house in Dupont.... so that may be why recommendations for
WA viticulture are often done by temp it might be more of a limiting
factor
jay
work out the kinks of this adventure thank you,
though I am not a viticulturist I think that a viticulturist must
also
think of contibuting to his AVA'S identity culture and consistency ,
the Puget Sound already is struggleing to develop its identity and
growing "anything that will grow" in a haphazard random way is in a
way selfish, in order for the AVA to be taken seriously it needs to
be
known for certain great wines and I wish to contrubute to that
identity by celebrating its heritage, Sieggerrebe has a 25 year
history in the Puget Sound and is part of what Identity it has....it
is grown widely here, has an established viticulture for the AVA and
makes great white wine(not that I am a judge) it sells locally and is
known regionally.... for home wine use alone I would just plant some
hybrid reds like Regent Rondo and Foch (which I am doing anyway) and
call it done but the goal here is to do a little more in whatever
small way I can and as Ted has said I got to sell some if I want to
make wine by the barrel.
In my humble inexperienced amature opinion I do think that some
hybrid wines need to be established in the consumer pallete, wines
that can be grown sustainably and more inexpensively and make great
wine...and it has begun in the Puget Sound already I have commercial
Regent waiting for me at home...I think there IS a market for locally
made organically grown wine...just needs to be marketed right...and
of
course the wine has to be good....and probably sold next to something
consumers know and like....
but then again all this is easy for me to say sitting here and not in
the trenches yet
Jason
jay
Hmmm...I wish I new if it would ripen...maybe I should try a few
selfrooted vines...and maybe 3309 would kick it in a week earlier
like
it does a hybrid like regent and then it can hang outin the october
fog for longer as a resistant hybrid?....the next question is can I
find it in
WA..
jay
have it, cloud mountain might be able to get it if I call, when do the
nurseries "calm down" I don't want to be bothering them about orders
for next year when they are trying to keep up with current ones.
jay
completely sold out their first Regent vintage in only a few months
after it came out and its a german hybrid with a funny name!!! there
is hope in the world!
I also found that he is ripening Chardonnay which ripens later and is
less disease reisistant then Traminette ...I wonder how I could get
some.
Paul E. Lehmann
> Paul, looking back at the link you posted...its a hybrid right?
Yes, it is a hybrid.
> Hmmm...I wish I new if it would ripen...maybe I should try a few
> selfrooted vines...and maybe 3309 would kick it in a week earlier like
> it does a hybrid like regent....the next question is can I find it in
> WA..
I know they grow in a far north as Pennsylvania and I believe New York State
also where it was developed at Cornell University.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traminette
I don't know what the Washington state laws would be for importing it from
out of state.
jay
wrote:
diseased material is quarintined, pests are quarintined I doesnt seem
that there are any laws bringing plant material in, but to be
registered as planting stock it needs to be inspected and certified.
Paul E. Lehmann
I checked out one nursery supplying Traminette and they stated they could
not ship to Washington State. There may be other sources though.
At least from this thread, I have learned a little about Regent. IF only I
had more room to plant, I might try this variety here in Maryland. I don't
think anyone is growing it out here.
jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah I will keep looking , I think I will at the very least plant a
few to see if the it can be ripened, and compare it to Siegerrebe as
far as disease resistance, thanks guys for the recommendation.
jay
considered
vinifera since the germans bred out the cross to 1/8th ...check out
Rondo as well
another German "hybrid" half St Laurent which is thought to be a Pinot
sprout.
shbailey
Here is some info on Regent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regent_(grape)
It is half Chambourcin. Reports from the diverse locations of Texas
and New Hampshire both note it as even more disease resistant than
Chambourcin. Initial indications are that the wine is best in cooler
climates than Texas, but the data is limited.
doub...@hotmail.com
and New Hampshire both note it as even more disease resistant than
Chambourcin."
Chambourcin is not that disease resistant. It wouldn't be hard to be
more disease resistant than Chambourcin.