risking my raspberries and boiling water
J Reiter
were regarding the use of boiling water in so many of the fruit wine
recipes.
I started a three-gallon batch of raspberry wine using #5, 36oz bags of
frozen raspberries, 2 1/2 gallons COLD water, pectic enzyme, yeast nutrient,
enough sugar to bring the Potential Alc level to 11%-ish and some sliced
bananas.
I have _never_ understood WHY so many recipes called for pouring boiled
water over the fruit and sugar. I have read that some recipes believe that
it "sets the color". UTTER HOGWASH!!! After allowing the raspberries to thaw
out for two days in the water I added the pectic enzyme and the sliced
bananas. Even by this time, the color of the water from the raspberries was
a brilliant red. The third day I checked the Pot. Alc. added sugar to
adjust, checked the TA and the pH (both in acceptable range), and added two
packets of Lalvin K1V-1116. The fourth day (today) has shown that the color
of the water of the must is a brilliant red and fermentation is going
strong. There is a healthy cap and the aroma is wonderful.
After using strictly cold water only, in this batch of raspberry wine I
would be tempted to _never_ use boiled water on the fruit of any fruit wine
recipe. For the reason that the biggest complaint about country wines as
tasted by judges is that the fruit comes out madderized. Vinifera grapes
aren't madderized, so why should fruit be madderized? I am almost certain
that the fruit suffers under the boiled water. And boiled water certainly
doesn't "set" a color.
Instead, what I would advocate, after this experiment, is that (for those
of you who are game to try) to add the appropriate amount of sugar that you
are going to use, to your primary, pour the required amount of boiled water
over the sugar to invert the sugar, and allow that maixture to cool to room
temperature. Then add your fruit, camden tablet, yeast nutrient, pectic
enzyme, etc. I may start a mango wine soon and will follow these steps
instead.
After this experiment, I simply see no reason to use boiled water over
the fruit. Wrong order of steps. The fruit should be added _after_ the
boiled water and sugar mixture has cooled. Allow the pectic enzyme to work
for two days, check your TA, pH and Brix and go from there.
Will certainly keep you all informed as to how this batch progresses and
finishes. Thoughts and arguments to the contrary will be appreciated.
Joanne
Jack Keller
an experiment, you would have made two identical batches and used
boiling water on one and cold water on the other to see what, if any,
differences there were between the products of the two methods at,
say, two years in the bottle rather than 4 days into the procedure.
There are many ways to make fruit wine. Each fruit has its own unique
set of characteristics that lend themselves better to one kind of
extraction over another. I have just looked up red raspberry wine in
eight winemaking books by reputable authors and found that seven of
them use boiling water to extract the flavor and "set" the color. The
one that doesn't cautions you to keep the secondary in a dark
environment so as not to lose the "fragile color." You may make of
this what you will, but I will continue to use boiling water with my
red raspberries.
"Setting the color" does not mean extracting it. It means the color
becomes stable and will not bleach out in sunlight, darken (brown)
over time, or adhere to the bottle, cork or sediment.
My wife has a very good book on making dyes from native plants.
Certain dyes only set with hot water, others with cold water, and most
others with various mineral salts dissolved in the water. The common
goldenrod, for example, will yield three different colored dyes
depending on how you set the color. You can get four colors of dye
from the red raspberry -- from cardinal red to burnt umber -- but you
only get a stable red with heat. I use her book every once in a while
when I find conflicting extraction methods and want to preserve a
specific color. It has never failed me yet.
Finally, to make invert sugar, you will have to bring the sugar-water
(with citric acid added) to a simmer and hold it there for about 40
minutes. Simply pouring boiling water over the sugar will not cause
it to invert.
Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/
J Reiter
you do make some good points, however, I beg to differ with you until I
see with my own eyes exactly just why the use of boiled water. For one
thing, the color is extracting nicely on my raspberry wine. I've made this
same raspberry wine before using same raspberries from the same grower and
used boiled water. The color has not "set" in the previous batch. In fact it
is deteriorating in spite of being kept out of sunlight. Therefore, what I
am doing now is an experiment, so don't get testy with me. The problem with
the color deterioiration may lie elsewhere.
I did pose the question, months before, of _why_ do so many of the fruit
wine recipes require the use of boiled water, to which I recall, you did not
post an answer. What came out of the replies was after some head-scratching
a surmise that the boiled water was a carry-over (not a hangover) from them
thar good ol' days B.C.E. (Before Camden tablet Era), when the fruit needed
to be pasteurized(?). Beyond that, nobody had a really good answer. But that
possibly it may be no longer necessary to use boiled water. So, in light of
that discussion, I decided to see just what _does_ extract color. And if
there really is a difference in making a fruit wine recipe using cold water.
Quite frankly, at this stage either method looks the same.
Until this wine is finished and ages for a year, I will still hold out to
differ with you on the necessity of boiled water. In light of the fact that
we now have camden tablets, pot. meta-bisulphite, pectic enzyme, bentonite,
not to mention the alcohol that is made during the winemaking process, that
may have the effect of preserving color, etc without the use of boiled
water. For instance, it doesn't take a rocket scientist (no offense to those
out there) to see that fruits preserved with sulphites retain their color
and those that are prepared without benefit of sulphites or other
preservatives do not. Small things like this make me question the use of
boiled water. Your wife's reference book on dyes is interesting. But are the
dyes using only water? (yes, I know about the salt thing)Or do the recipes
also use alcohol? Then again, are the colors in non-grape fruits water
soluble or alcohol soluble (such as might be found in red hybrids vs
vinifera respectively).
Jack, I am really curious as to why the use of boiled water (I can
understand its use with elderberries) and am really seeking solutions to
some problems that I am having and seeking answers to my question. Your's is
the first reply, and lengthy and rather researched. But you have given me
more questions. After Ben Rotter's charge questioning the role of dilution
in fruit wines, I cannot help but start to question the role of other
practices as well.
Joanne
Jack Keller <winem...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:cb6045a1.0203...@posting.google.com...
Jørn Dahl-Stamnes
at this point (I only add it after the fermenation is over).
In article <oRqg8.3439$766....@nwrddc04.gnilink.net>, "J Reiter"
Jørn Dahl-Stamnes, EDB Teamco AS
e-mail: Jorn.Dah...@nospam.novit.no (remove nospam first)
web: http://spiderman.novit.no/dahls/
frederick ploegman
I am unable to find a definition of the word "madderized" in either of
my dictionaries. Can you define it for us please?
J Reiter <jmre...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:oRqg8.3439$766....@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
David C Breeden
>Joanne
>I am unable to find a definition of the word "madderized" in either of
>my dictionaries. Can you define it for us please?
The OED rides to the rescue, once again. :-) "Maderization," from
the wine Madeira, basically just means oxidation. It's the quality
associated with brownish white wine exposed to too much oxygen.
There is, so far as I can tell, no verb form of the word.
Dave
****************************************************************************
Dave Breeden bre...@lightlink.com
Virgle Griffith
Would like to purchase.
Thanks.
Virgle
Virgle Griffith
Would like to purchase.
Thanks.
Virgle
"> My wife has a very good book on making dyes from native plants.
Virgle Griffith
Would like to purchase.
Thanks.
Virgle
"> My wife has a very good book on making dyes from native plants.
J Reiter
Joanne
frederick ploegman <ploe...@innernet.net> wrote in message
news:a5vq7...@enews1.newsguy.com...
J Reiter
I previously posted the word 'cooked', instead of oxidized. But somehow
I believe that the boiled water on the fruit affects the fruit. And not all
for the good.
I am just not convinced that the boiled water is necessary.
Joanne
frederick ploegman <ploe...@innernet.net> wrote in message
news:a5vq7...@enews1.newsguy.com...
frederick ploegman
the process will cause oxidation of a wine. ???
David C Breeden <bre...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:3c837af0$1...@news2.lightlink.com...
Greg
lately, so here it is again.
I thought I would make just a couple of comments. The jury is still
out for
me on whether or not to use hot water.
On 3/3/02 8:57 AM, in article
oRqg8.3439$766....@nwrddc04.gnilink.net, "J
Reiter" <jmre...@gte.net> wrote:
>
> I have _never_ understood WHY so many recipes called for pouring boiled
> water over the fruit and sugar. I have read that some recipes believe that
> it "sets the color". UTTER HOGWASH!!! After allowing the raspberries to thaw
My understanding is that the water doesn't "set" the color, but helps
extract the color. The temperature of the water for color extraction
may be
more or less important depending on the fruit and what particular
compounds
make up the color. My observation in dealing with cranberries is that
there
is a significant and noticeable difference in color when boiling water
is
used. Scientifically this can be rationalized based on solubility.
Increasing the temperature increases the solubility of organic
compounds in
water.
That being said, what about the flavors and aromas? I think that hot
water
will definitely change them. Is this bad or good? I guess it depends
on the
type of fruit and the style you want. If you want that cooked apple
pie
flavor in an apple wine, you may want to "cook" the fruit. If you want
the
crisp refreshing taste of fresh apples, certainly not.
> After this experiment, I simply see no reason to use boiled water over
> the fruit. Wrong order of steps. The fruit should be added _after_ the
> boiled water and sugar mixture has cooled. Allow the pectic enzyme to work
> for two days, check your TA, pH and Brix and go from there.
Joanne, I would caution you that you have only have one data point
(one
experiment on one fruit). As a scientist, I cannot make any conclusion
from
your experiment. I would need to do multiple experiments, figure out
what
kind of deviation in the results occur from one experiment to another
in
order to make conclusions. I will say again, what works for one fruit,
may
not be true for another. The experiments would need to be done with
other
fruits as well. So, for me, I don't think it is as simple as saying
boiling
water should never be used.
What we need is more empirical data. Thanks for sharing your
observations.
----Greg
prairi...@hotmail.com
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/grcook/wine/
David C Breeden
>Thanks Dave. But now I don't understand how the use of heat during
>the process will cause oxidation of a wine. ???
I don't think it would. I think she was using the term to refer to
the sort of "cooked" taste associated with Madeira and other sherries.
tallgoblin
not been boiled is the primary cause of freckled kneecaps...for which there
is no cure. To prevent this affliction when you get the wine bottled up you
need to ship it to me for safekeeping. The world is awash in 100 year old
wine recipes, many of which likely work but make little sense if you think
about what you are doing. I for one dont boil my water because I agree with
you that it doesnt make sense. I honestly dont know if there is a difference
in the final color of my wines because I havent done comparisons but I have
a suspicion that I may be avoiding partially cooking the fruit and that I
might be getting a little better flavor by not boiling. It makes a lot of
sense to question the old methods and I am glad to see you are doing it.
Keep up your experiments and let us know how they turn out. Remember the
earth used to be flat until someone questioned it.
"J Reiter" <jmre...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:oRqg8.3439$766....@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
frederick ploegman
A way to kill wild yeast and mold. However, I frequently use a hot
process for juice extraction expressly to obtain the "stewed fruit"
character in these wines. Some of the folks that get these wines
have expressed a marked preference for these flavors. It disturbs
me that judges would look down upon such wines when they are
made that way by design !!
J Reiter <jmre...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:JILg8.14607$fI6....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
J Reiter
sorry I got confused in my use and definition of the term 'madderized'.
Hopeless confusion happens when the clotheswasher decides to die an
immediate death in front of the teenager when doing her bluejeans, so I've
had to purchase a new washer and dryer (ours are14 years old). Aaaack!
Ok, I'm starting to get back to a more serene state. Yes madderized
refers to oxidation, but judges have complained to me about the pronounced
'cooked' taste of fruit wines. And I have to wonder why fruit wines
'require' hot/boiled water in the recipes in light of the fact that we have
sulphites, bentonite, etc at our disposal. Is there a way around the use of
hot/boiled water and still have a quality product that ages, travels well
and holds its color? I'd like to think so. I, personnally have seen quite a
few fruit wines that have gone problematic, some of them are mine. And those
that were mine are ones where I have followed directions to the letter when
I made them.
So this is where my grand adventure is taking me. Experiment, yes, I'll
call it an experiment. Am I throwing the baby out with the bath water. Jack
Keller may think so. Yes, I'm bucking the system and I'd like to try and
come up with something new. If people like the cooked nature of the fruit
that comes out in your fruit wines, that's perfectly fine. That's what they
like. Fruit wines are fun and there are so many ways to make them.
Joanne
frederick ploegman <ploe...@innernet.net> wrote in message
news:a607q...@enews2.newsguy.com...
J Reiter
thanks for the vote of confidence. I like your freckled kneecaps theory.
By the way, do you use sulphites, bentonite, etc?
I have been using top quality fruit, bentonite and sulphites and top
quality bottles and corks, and the wines have been problematic. The only
problem I have had in my grape wines are noticeable cases of H2S from time
to time, which is a different arena altogether. But same corks and bottles.
Joanne
tallgoblin <gob...@csolve.net> wrote in message
news:o_Mg8.1554$4E4.8...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Trevor A Panther
more if--
I was 10 years younger, ( no perhaps 20 yrs! )
I had the space
It is nice to be back home!!!!!!!
--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
This message has been checked for all known viruses.
Any views expressed are solely those of the author and do not represent
those of any associated organisation.
Jack Keller
I would expect it to. Red raspberry's color is right there in the
juice. Press the berries and it is there. It makes no difference
whether you use hot or cold water to EXTRACT the color. The trick is
to SET the color as best as one can. I am defending the practice only
by reporting that 7 of 8 references used boiling water and the one
that didn't claimed the color would fade if exposed to light.
> I've made this same raspberry wine before using same raspberries from the
> same grower and used boiled water. The color has not "set" in the previous
> batch. In fact it is deteriorating in spite of being kept out of sunlight.
Well, I don't know what your problem is. My raspberry wine (both red
and black, plus a red rasp-cranberry blend) is kept in an open wine
rack in our guest bedroom, along with about 270 other bottles of
assorted wines, and they are holding their color well. My oldest red
rasp is a 1997 and it still looks beautiful.
> What I am doing now is an experiment, so don't get testy with me.
Ouch!
> The problem with the color deterioiration may lie elsewhere.
It may, but I can't think of where. Do you stabilize with pot meta
and pot sorbate? Do you use ascorbic acid?
> I did pose the question, months before, of _why_ do so many of the fruit
> wine recipes require the use of boiled water, to which I recall, you did not
> post an answer.
I never saw the discussion. It must have occurred while I was on
vacation or TDY in Washington. I rarely read old threads when
returning, so it is quite possible the timing was wrong for me.
> What came out of the replies was after some head-scratching a surmise that
> the boiled water was a carry-over (not a hangover) from them thar good ol'
> days B.C.E. (Before Camden tablet Era), when the fruit needed to be
> pasteurized(?).
Well, that's a very good guess, and for some fruits it may indeed be
the case. I don't think it is the only answer, however. Pomegranate,
barberry, prickly pear cactus fruit, hackberry, bilberry, huckleberry,
and many fruit and berries possess deep but non-permanent color. Heat
is not the only way to set it, but it is the only non-invasive way I
know of (and it doesn't work for everything -- like beetroot, for
example).
> Beyond that, nobody had a really good answer.
Well, I contend that I just gave you one, although I haven't tested it
on every fruit or berry traditionally treated with boiling water. I
have, however, tested it with the ones listed in my previous paragraph
and can assure you that their colors will fade quickly in light
without heat extraction.
> But that possibly it may be no longer necessary to use boiled water. So, in
> light of that discussion, I decided to see just what _does_ extract color.
As I said before, it isn't EXTRACTION that is at issue. It is
color-set.
> Your wife's reference book on dyes is interesting. But are the dyes using
> only water? (yes, I know about the salt thing) Or do the recipes also use
> alcohol?
I don't think alcohol is used, but I could be wrong. Most of the dyes
were discovered by Native Americans before Columbus brought distilled
"firewater" to these shores, but the Indians were very ingenious and
discovered things I'd never have thought possible for such primative
people. I'll have to look through her book for you and see.
> Jack, I am really curious as to why the use of boiled water (I can understand
> its use with elderberries) and am really seeking solutions to some problems
> that I am having and seeking answers to my question.
Yes, I can see that. But you might be asking the wrong question. I'm
not saying you are, but there are too many respectable people out
there who have been making wine for decades to have missed something
so basic as to continue using heat for some fruit and not others when
it isn't necessary for one reason or another. If it were a matter of
ALL fruit being heat treated, I'd admit you might have a point. But
we're talking about a selective list, and one I've toyed with myself
to some degree. Not only that, but there are too many really good
scientists making wine to have allowed an unnecessary step to be
perpetuated endlessly. But go ahead and test it. That can't hurt
anything but a few gallons of raspberry wine. And who knows? You
might even discover something in the process....
> After Ben Rotter's charge questioning the role of dilution in fruit wines, I
> cannot help but start to question the role of other practices as well.
Ben's discussion has led me to add additional juice or fruit to
several (but not all) wines I've made recently, but the jury is still
out on these until they age. I can tell you preliminarily that I am
not at all happy with an elderberry I made using Ben's formula; it is
nausiating compared to another wine made at the same time using
traditional dilution formulas. It certainly has Ben's claim of
"concentrated flavor," but I cannot imagine anyone liking it. But, I
will give it time. After all, one man's rotten tomato is another
man's ketchup.
Ben Rotter
There are a few issues here:
1. Origins
I suspect the origins of heat extraction are in the inhibition of
bacteria and (unresilient) wild yeasts (i.e. pre-sulphite use in home
winemaking). Higher extraction (though the heat) may have come into
it, but my I suspect the former is the major source.
2. Extraction
I generally advocate cold extraction in winemaking. This is because:
(a) I dislike the kind of harsh phenolic extraction that heat often
brings
(b) I believe that high temperatures can `boil off' delicate aromas
(c) I don't require heat for colour extraction as I get great colour
without it (this may be because I generally use high quantities of
fruit and little dilution, but nevertheless, I don't need it - yet
another reason to go high-end-fruit or non-dilution :-)
(d) Most styles of wine I make are directly fruity styles (I believe
most non-grape wines are stylistically designed this way too) and I
therefore do not desire `baked' flavours.
Of course, different winemakers will obviously take a different
approach on the above points depending on how they feel about them
generally (e.g. they may feel aromatic blow off (point (b)) is
significant in flower wines but not in robust fruit wines) and on what
kind of wine they're making (e.g. they may like a baked-fruit flavour
in apple wine).
Point (b) is an area of debate which is not stylistic, though I
personally have not experimented with any of the kind of accuracy
required to determine whether it's impact is significant or not. I
intend to get round to it one day. :)
3. Setting colour
Jack wrote:
>"Setting the color" does not mean extracting it. It means the color
becomes >stable and will not bleach out in sunlight, darken (brown)
over time, or adhere >to the bottle, cork or sediment.
I can't believe that simply by heating a must, a wine is then
prevented from colour bleaching in sunlight or oxidative browning.
That seems ludicrous.
Anyone got any chemisty to back up the "setting" argument (note this
is not the same as extracting colour)?
Either way, the disadvantages of excessive phenolic extraction and
potential aromatic blow-off far outweigh any advantages gained from
"colour setting" in my opinion.
4. Experimentation
As Greg stated, to truely determine how heat extraction affects a wine
vs cold extraction, you'd have to make two wines exactly the same
(i.e. same fruit, same numbers, same fermentations procedures, etc) to
compare. To be scientifically thorough, you'd then need to be able to
reproduce the same results with the same type of wine, and if you're
going for an all out "heat is bad" declaration, you'd then need to
reproduce the results with many other fruits too. Only then could you
really say that it's one way or another.
Either way again, I still assert that it's (to a certain extent) a
stylistic decision and some people evidently like the results. Though
I doubt many people have ever done thorough experimentation on this
issue.
>After Ben Rotter's charge questioning the role of dilution in fruit
wines, I >cannot help but start to question the role of other
practices as well.
Glad I've got people questioning! :) Thanks for posting this Joanne.
I believe a lot of common non-grape winemaking practises are outdated
and not conducive to quality. That's fine if you're just making wine
for the heck of it, but for those of us who continue to strive to make
the best wine we possibly can, seriously questioning and reassessing
methods is a necessity.
Lastly, I currently have a raspberry wine that was cold extracted
(infact - cold crushed, cold settled, cold juice fermented) and it has
fabulous colour, flavour, and actually more phenolic character than
I'd like it to have (it had an extended cold maceration), so I'm
definitely sticking with cold extraction on this one. (More on that
wine in a future post though...)
Ben
Improved Winemaking
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter
Jack Keller
Uh, Dave, it means more than that. There are five types of Madeira;
alll are fortified to 20% abv. Madeira's are slowly heated (cooked is
an acceptable synonym) in an "estufa" for prolonged periods of time,
during which they attain their particular taste characteristics. The
very best Madeira are held at 90° F. (32° C.) for 9 months. The least
expensive (and lesser quality) Madeira are kept at 130° F. (54° C.)
for just 3 months. Certainly they are oxidized, but so is Sherry and
Sherry and Madeira have little in common taste-wise.
frederick ploegman
Now I am confused. Is it the washer or the kids that are 14 years old ??
;o) hehehe Just kidding !! Yes, I agree. The great majority of
"country"
wines made from fresh fruit are made without heat. Most of mine are too.
Adding sulphite 24 hours before the yeast will accomplish the same
thing and *not* give that "stewed" flavor. For your problematic wines
I might suggest the following. Try to maintain a pH of 3.6 (or as close
as you can) and maintain sulphites at 120% aseptic. Always re-sweeten
to at least 2.5% RS (fruit needs *some* sugar to bring up the flavor),
and don't use bentonite unless it is unavoidable !! TIME will clear most
wines and leave them in better condition.
I might add here that there is often talk of frozen/commercial juices that
have no preservatives being used to make wine. If you look *very*
closely, you will almost always find the word *pasteurized* hiding
somewhere on the label !! These juices often produce that "stewed"
character even when folks *think* they are using fresh juice. It's
something to think about.
J Reiter <jmre...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:kxRg8.3901$JZ2....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Captaintoo
(just kidding)? Keep it up, we ALL learn from others
trys/mistakes/successes/experiments/FUN!
Ben Rotter wrote in message ...
Dewey & Lucy Thompson
> Ben's discussion has led me to add additional juice or fruit to
> several (but not all) wines I've made recently, but the jury is still
> out on these until they age. I can tell you preliminarily that I am
> not at all happy with an elderberry I made using Ben's formula; it is
> nausiating compared to another wine made at the same time using
> traditional dilution formulas. It certainly has Ben's claim of
> "concentrated flavor," but I cannot imagine anyone liking it. But, I
> will give it time. After all, one man's rotten tomato is another
> man's ketchup.
Jack: I've seen something similar. Elderberry wine made from "almost pure
juice". The same result, the stuff was undrinkable the first year. But
after aging several years it was truely something to behold.......
Dewey
J Reiter
yes to sorbate and meta. No, I havn't used ascorbic acid. Learned minds
have quietly informed me that although it may help with some grape wines,
those wines oxidize or become problematic with aging later on.
Yes, I realize it's not the extraction but the color-setting that's the
main issue. Also the fact that the fruit wnds up 'cooked' which imparts a
cooked flavor to the wine. Will continue my "experiment" (thank you very
much). I have seen quite a few problematic fruit wines. Most can be
explained by no sulphites, no bentonite, etc. (I've even seen re-used
corks! -yech!), but others leave me wondering.news:cb6045a1.02030...@posting.google.com...
tallgoblin
prefer most of my fruit wines dry dry dry so I also manage to mostly stay
away from sorbates. One thing I have been doing which has improved my wines
enormously is preblending the fruits. By this I mean trying to make wines
that contain more than 1 fruit at the outset. I got started with this
practice while making B. Acton's Black Mead recipe which is based on ribena
blackcurrant concentrate, honey, and red grape concentrate. This wine was
excellent. I had some ribena left over and made a gallon based on a CJJ
Berry recipe which omitted the grape concentrate and used sugar instead of
honey. This batch wasnt half as good as the jazzed up black mead. That got
me thinking about my elderberry wines that seemed to be missing something so
next batch of elderberry I added a significant amount of apples and I
believe that the apples resulted in a far superior wine. Now I hardly ever
make a single fruit wine without the addition of at least raisins or grape
concentrate and very often I will add some of another fruit as well. For
example I use apples or wild plums (or both) in my elderberry, apple in my
cherry, pinepple in my fig, apricot in my carrot. Not a lot, but some. I
dont really want to taste the second fruit but I think its addition adds
balance to a wine. I read some kitmaking instructions once which extolled
the virtue of adding a single apple or tangerine to the primary. The
manufacturer felt this addition was an improvement to the basic kit. I have
also been known to toss in some elderflowers or rose petals to improve
bouquet. I wouldnt consider making an apple wine without raisins or white
concentrate, and I wouldnt consider making rhubarb without a little apple
and substituting honey for maybe 25% of the sugar. I am going to get jumped
on for what I just said. I know that when I add honey and apple that I no
longer have what many purists would call rhubarb wine-but to my taste what I
end up with is more balanced and more enjoyable. And the experimenting is
fun!news:6CRg8.3905$JZ2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Jack Keller
(golden) raisins or white grape concentrate to add that "je ne sais
pas" to the wine's body and mouth-feel. I also use a fair amount of
pure apple juice in my wines whose bases are citric-heavy, and
apricot, banana, orange, blueberry, and elderflower are old friends
for adding body and/or bouqet and/or mouth-feel to wines. Drive on,
amigo!
Jack Keller
slipped my mind. As in making wine, have patience....
Greg
opportunity to sample a friend's raspberry wine. It was really
delightful. I was shocked to learn he had made it from raspberry
jelly!
Personally, I rarely use heat extraction. But, with cranberries, I am
a convert. For raspberries, I think you will lose some of the delicate
nuances of the fresh fruit.
But I'm still scratching my head about that jelly. Anyone tried
Welches Grape Jelly?
:-)
Keep experimenting. What a great discussion this is.
--Greg
Ben Rotter
> on for what I just said. I know that when I add honey and apple that I no
> longer have what many purists would call rhubarb wine-but to my taste what I
> end up with is more balanced and more enjoyable. And the experimenting is
> fun!
I definitely promote blending and commend your efforts!
Balance is a major (and key) issue in (especially non-grape)
winemaking and if that can be attained by fruit blending then it
should be done.
I've had similar experience with fruit blending, it filling out
lacking mid-palates and thin body in particular. Pre-fermentation
blending also results in more integration.
If you can label grape wines by having 75% (or so) of one grape
variety in the blend, surely you can do the same with non-grape wines.
In my opinion, it's more about the primary character of the wine - if
your rhubarb tastes like rhubarb, and the apple is
almost-/insignificant then it's a rhubarb as far as I'm concerned.
It's the purists who are the ones who are missing out with inferior
wines on this issue!
Ben
Virgle Griffith
Virgle
Jack Keller
> juice". The same result, the stuff was undrinkable the first year. But
> after aging several years it was truely something to behold.......
Dewey, I am (as you should be able to tell) conservative. It is
difficult for me to believe that hundreds of thousands of people have
been making elderberry wine for centuries -- many without any outside
guidance (i.e. recipes) -- and would have collectively missed the best
way to do it. That just isn't believable. However, as I said, I will
give it time.
I am not unreasonably stubborn, but I have been making wine longer
than some of the people here have been alive and I have experimented
more than you can imagine. Some things just work better in the long
run no matter how unnecessary they might seem (like using boiling
water on certain bases or cold maceration on others). We shall
see....
Jack Keller
> although it may help with some grape wines, those wines oxidize or become
> problematic with aging later on.
Good for you. I don't use it either for the same reasons. I was just
looking for something you may have done that might account for the
different results we've experienced.
> Also the fact that the fruit winds up 'cooked' which imparts a cooked flavor
> to the wine.
I really don't know who is making all these wines with "stewed" or
"cooked" undertones. Mine don't taste that way at, all and in the
many winemaking events I've judged I have very seldom tasted such a
thing. But in following this thread one would think it is very
common. Apple has been mentioned by several posters, but I have NEVER
tasted an apple wine that tastes like cooked apples.
There are some bases that ARE actually cooked (most roots, for
example, such as beets, carrots, parsnips), but after aging they
certainly do not taste "cooked." Nor do they taste like beets,
carrots or parsnips, for that matter, but that is food for another
thread.
Jack Keller
from Jams and Jellies" -- that was devoted to these wines. I never
owned a copy, but I used to see it in some homebrew shops.
One of the first wines I ever made was from apricot jam. I believe 4
jars yielded the correct specific gravity for a gallon of 11% abv
wine. And, for the record, Welch's Concord Grape Jelly makes a very
good (and inexpensive) wine.
Dewey & Lucy Thompson
> Dewey, I am (as you should be able to tell) conservative. It is
> difficult for me to believe that hundreds of thousands of people have
> been making elderberry wine for centuries -- many without any outside
> guidance (i.e. recipes) -- and would have collectively missed the best
> way to do it. That just isn't believable. However, as I said, I will
> give it time.
I understand your point. Most people don't make wine with the intention of
"holding" it for a number of years in order for it to be drinkable though.
I have seen a number of recipes out there with essentially "pure" elderberry
juice, if I remember correctly, there is at least one on your page.
Aging doesn't always help. I had some plum and some peach that I "lost" for
about ten years in the basement. They were bad going in, and worse coming
out. I ended up pouring the last of them out to reuse the bottles.
Jack Keller
Dyeing : Traditional Recipes for Modern Use" by J. N. Liles (1990),
"Wild Color" by Jenny Dean, Karen Diadick Casselman and Janny Dean
(1999), and "Natural Dyes in the United States" by Rita J. Adrosko
(1974). The book I was thinking about earlier in this thread is the
one by Rita Adrosko.
We also have "The Encyclopedia of Edible Plants in the United States"
by Francois Couplan (1998), which also discusses natural dyes when
appropriate for the plant, and "A Practical Guide to Edible and Useful
Plants: Including Recipes, Harmful Plants, Natural Dyes and Textile
Fibers" by Delena Tull (1987). These are used more in my winemaking
than in her dyeing, but they are the books that got her started on
using natural plant dyes.
Virgle Griffith
Virgle
David C Breeden
Don't tell me, tell the editors at the OED! :-)
Your point about the differences between Madeira and Sherry is well
taken, but the word is defined in the way I reported, with respect
only to color and oxidation, not "cooking."
Jack Keller
> oxidation, not "cooking."
Well, there goes my remaining confidence in Oxford....
frederick ploegman
for this is ??
Jack Keller <winem...@lycos.com> wrote in message
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J Reiter
By the way Frederick, we figured out that the now dead washer & dryer are
16 years old. The teenager is 15 years old. New washer and dryer are making
for better domestic harmony, and at the same time freeing up more space to
store boxes of full wine bottles!
Joanne
frederick ploegman <ploe...@innernet.net> wrote in message
news:a691s...@enews4.newsguy.com...
Ben Rotter
> several (but not all) wines I've made recently, but the jury is still
> out on these until they age. I can tell you preliminarily that I am
> not at all happy with an elderberry I made using Ben's formula; it is
Which formula?? I only offered a concept, unless that's what you mean.
> nausiating compared to another wine made at the same time using
> traditional dilution formulas. It certainly has Ben's claim of
> "concentrated flavor," but I cannot imagine anyone liking it. But, I
> will give it time. After all, one man's rotten tomato is another
> man's ketchup.
It may be the case that it's just not a wine style for you, or that
you dislike concentrated flavours in your wines, and that's fair
enough.
But it's more complicated that just adding extra fruit: I can't stress
enough (OK, perhaps I can :) that balance is a major issue in
winemaking and this is especially true when you start doing high-fruit
content non-grape wines. For example, elderberries are high in acidity
and tannin and these must be balanced out in the wine that's made,
otherwise it will inevitably be deemed inferior.
The problem I've had with my (even 100% juice) elderberry wines is
that they lack mid-palate weight (in fruit or anything!) and this
needs to be filled out to accomodate the high acidity and tannin
that's resulted from the 100% juice must. It may be that elderberries
simply can't offer that and therefore we'll never be able to make a
highly concenrated and well balanced elderberry wine, but it may
instead be something like the fruit I use - afterall, Scotland is a
pretty wet and cold place :)
Not surprisingly, most of the famous grape wines in world are those
which embody concentrated flavours AND excellent balance.
>It is difficult for me to believe that hundreds of thousands of
people have
>been making elderberry wine for centuries
I believe that most people who make non-grape wines use traditional
recipes without questioning the chemistry or mechanics behind recipe
reasoning. That actually means it's VERY easy for hundreds of people
to end up doing the same thing over the centuries. Plus, it's only in
the last 50 years or so that winemaking technology has come so far (we
now talk about pH, TA, extraction techniques, cultured yeasts,
sulphite, etc etc) and centuries ago none of this was available,
therefore "tried and tested" recipes were the way to go.
By the way Jack, what do you find distasteful about/why do you imagine
"not anyone liking" your high fruit-content elderberry wine? And just
out of interest, how much fruit did you use?
Thanks for the discussion!
Ben
Improved Winemaking
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/
Rene
taste??
There are varieties that have quite a reasonable taste, soft and
lightly acidic. I can imagine it can make a big difference, especially
if you're using 100%juice...
Give me a year or two and I will let you know what the difference in
taste will be for a normal-made wine (no, I'm not doing 100% juice
yet...)
Jack Keller
in the day for a timely reply. My wife and I are heading out of town
within minutes for the weekend, so my replies will have to await next
week. Stay tuned, please.
Ray
wines. Americans especially have carried the idea of single varietial grape
wines to an extreme where most old country wines are blends of what grows
well in the area. I think a lot can be done for country wines by judicious
blending of fruit in much the same way. Keep us informed.
Ray
"tallgoblin" <gob...@csolve.net> wrote in message
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