Shade/Partial Sun Grapes???
goback
Paul E. Lehmann
I think your would be fighting an uphill battle. From what I have read you
need a minimum of about 8 hours of direct sun. This is about what I have
in my backyard vineyard - along with a couple hours of filtered sun. I
still need more sun on parts of the vineyard but my wife will not let me
chop down any more trees.
nine...@yahoo.com
goback,
I'm banking on it. My wonderfully shady backyard is my only feasible
growing site, and I have a newly planted plot of Vignoles vines
popping out shoots and leaves. I get perfect sun from 11 AM to 3 PM.
After that, it's diffuse until about 6 PM. So we're talking 4 hrs plus
a fraction.
I plan to crop about half of what is typical for a mature vine, so 24
vs. 48 fruting shoots. I'm hoping that this, combined with careful
canopy management, will result in at least a useable crop. If not, my
wife will make grape sorbet and my daughter will learn how to spit out
grape seeds.
Roger
Paul E. Lehmann
Let us know how it turns out. I have found that currants and raspberries
grow very well without much sun. I think a well made currant or black
raspberry wine is far superior to a mediocre grape wine. If I had it to do
all over again, I would have planted half my vineyard in black raspberries
instead of grapes.
Michael
"Paul E. Lehmann" <pleh...@fred.net> wrote in message
news:rpuza.7$Nm3....@news.abs.net...
> nine...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Let us know how it turns out. I have found that currants and
raspberries
> grow very well without much sun. I think a well made currant or black
> raspberry wine is far superior to a mediocre grape wine. If I had it to
do
> all over again, I would have planted half my vineyard in black raspberries
> instead of grapes.
>
What variety of black raspberry would you recommend?
frederick ploegman
"Paul E. Lehmann" <pleh...@fred.net> wrote in message
news:rpuza.7$Nm3....@news.abs.net...
> nine...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> If I had it to do all over again, I would have planted half my
> vineyard in black raspberries instead of grapes.
>
Amen !! :o)
Paul E. Lehmann
I don't remember the variety. I got them from Southern States farm coop.
You can check your county extension office for recommendations. They are
very prolific growers and set fruit the first year. Unfortunately I did not
have up my bird netting last year in time to save the crop.
ninevines
> grow very well without much sun. I think a well made currant or black
> raspberry wine is far superior to a mediocre grape wine.
Won't know until harvest 2005, but until then I am living the dream! Since
I make fruit wines too, I'm not limited to what I can grow on my property.
We are going to plant some blueberry bushes soon, so that will be another
home-grown challenge. Still, I enjoy the view of my modest plot from my
bedroom window - the romance is at least half of this for me.
--
Roger
Quinta do Placer
"Grapes, made in the shade"
Paul E. Lehmann
I can appreciate what you are saying. I can look out of my study (converted
bedroom and look out on my backyard vineyard. It will never win any awards
for production but I know that I alone did it. You can look at it this
way; if you can grow grapes under less than ideal conditions, just think
what you can do with ideal conditions. From my experience, keeping fungus
under control is a major chore. You can not control the sun but you can do
everything else, such as cultivation, shoot positioning, fertilization,
getting your soil pH where it needs to be etc. Whatever happens, keep what
you have as healthy as possible. A bunch of grapes can ripen in a paper
bag tied around them while on the vine but you will need sun on the shoots
for next years bunches - they are already formed in this years shoots. I
have learned that you have to think a year of two ahead when it comes to
growing grapes and don't hesitate doing things THIS year, even if it hurts,
to better the vine for next year and the following years.
nine...@yahoo.com
> I can appreciate what you are saying. I can look out of my study (converted
> bedroom and look out on my backyard vineyard. It will never win any awards
> for production but I know that I alone did it. You can look at it this
> way; if you can grow grapes under less than ideal conditions, just think
> what you can do with ideal conditions.
I wish that I could find more information about this 'shady' topic.
All of the literature I can find is geared towards serious grape
growing under ideal conditions. Of course I understand why such
material would primarily focus on optimal conditions. But it is
interesting and frustrating that there seems to be little study of
anything else in the academic viticulture world.
For example, we *know* that full sun all day long is best. But has
there ever been any empirical work undertaken to optimize fruit
production under a limited sun environment? It would seem to be an
interesting topic. Looks like I'm a willing test case in my own single
data point experiment!
Roger
Lum
<nine...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e1fb0a6a.03053...@posting.google.com...
Making a living growing grapes under optimum conditions is difficult Roger,
so little research is done on growing under adverse conditions.
Regards,
lum
ninevines
Roger,
> so little research is done on growing under adverse conditions.
> Regards,
> lum
Yes, I did say that I understand why there is little info. Doesn't stop me
from being frustrated though. :-)
R
MikeMTM
You might want to take a look at "Sunlight Into Wine" (Smart &
Robinson). They talk mostly about keeping an open canopy, and their own
ideas, but they do get into sunlight intensity & photosynthesis. They
also cite a lot of stats. One interesting thing I read was that
photosynthesis (barely) begins to occur at about 2% of full sunlight
intensity, and that it _maxes out_ at 1/3 full intensity. They also
point out that a grape leaf transmits only 6% of the light hitting it,
and therefore advocate canopies that are no more than two leaves thick.
From that info one might conclude that vines will grow under less than
optimal sunlight conditions, but the issues of fruitfulness & ripening
still need to be explored, and I think you'll need to determine the
answer by actual experience on your site. From my own experience, I had
a row of DeChaunac which grew fine but never developed fruiting clusters
until I removed some high, overhanging tree limbs. The affect was pretty
dramatic. They went from almost no fruit to abundant fruit, requiring
thinning, the next year. I guess the point is that vines may grow in
less than full sun, but getting good grapes might still be a problem.
Hope this helps. Mike MTM
Paul E. Lehmann
"ninevines" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote in message
news:Tb-dnUM9Lfn...@speakeasy.net...
The suggestion about the book "Sunlight into Wine" is an excellent on. I
was about to mention it myself.
My conditions don't sound as severe as yours but what I did this year was to
convert to a U or Lyre trellising system. I will keep one bud spurs even
after the cordon wires are filled out in the next few years. Even though
this is a retrofit year, I can see quite a difference. I think I will be
very pleased with this system. There is a lot less canopy shading and it
is a lot easier to spray. It will be easy to lay down a new cordon if
necessary and vine vigor can easily be controlled by increasing the bud
count if necessary on an individual vine by vine basis.
As has been mentioned, it is possible to grow vines with restricted sun
conditions but the trick is to get enough sun to mature the next years
embryonic clusters which are already in this years shoots. You can ripen a
bunch of grapes even with a paper bag around them (so I have read or been
told) but you first have to get the bunches.
If possible, you might want to trim the trees so that you can bring in
sunlight underneath the canopy of the tree. I have cut off a couple
"whorls" on some oak trees and it has helped but I need to trim off some
more. In time, you may have to make a decision as to whether you want a
vineyard or back yard with trees. If I had my way, there would be four less
trees around my yard but my wife has different ideas.
My dream is that when she retires that we move to a location where we have
about a half acre - a quarter acre with sun for my vineyard and the rest for
a house and yard. It would be hard to leave what I have already done but
the idea of starting a new vineyard from scratch and apply all the lessions
I have learned is enough to get my blood pumping.
Like I said before, go for it and learn but if you can't get grapes to grow
well for you, there are other things that make excellent wine and will grow
in filtered sun such as currants, gooseberries or raspberries.
>
>
ninevines
vineyard or back yard with trees. If I had my way, there would be four less
trees around my yard but my wife has different ideas."
Paul, Mike -
I'm in the heart of suburbia. We have a lovely 1/2 acre property with tall,
mature trees - just like most of the neighbors. I have been watching my
property closely and there is one additional small section that gets full
sun from 8 AM to 2 PM, or 6 hours of first-part-of-the-day sun. I will
probably plant it up next spring. There is another section that gets
similar sun that would (in my opinion) make a good arbor location. I asked
my wife about that but she said it wouldn't match our fence (love her
dearly, but the gender difference really shows). ;-)
This is a hobby that I have finally bit the bullet on after 3 years of just
imagining it. I have a feeling that, if my grapes don't grow here, I will
find an alternative location somehow. I will look for the book you
suggested. I already have "From Vines to Wine" and "The Organic Grape
Growers Guide" which are both excellent.
Thanks for the add'l thoughts!
Roger
Pavel314
> This is a hobby that I have finally bit the bullet on after 3 years of
just
> imagining it
This reminds me of my vineyard hesitation. I rehabilitated an overgrown
vineyard of Concord and Delaware vines on our property and got a good
harvest the first year, better the second. I thought about planting some
"official" wine vines but figured it would take them several years to bear
fruit so why bother.
After several years of thinking about expanding the vineyard, I realized
that if I had planted the vines when I originally came up with the idea, I
would have been stomping the grapes from those vines already! So I bought
some Foch and Traminette vines that Spring; they're going to bear their
first fruit this year. I'll have the grapes this year but, had I planted
them when I originally had the idea, their wine would be well aged by now
and ready to drink.
So my advice to anyone considering vines is to go ahead and plant them. If
you change your mind later, you can always pull them up and plant begonias
instead, but if you get the vines into the ground, you'll have grapes that
much sooner.
Paul
nine...@yahoo.com
> So my advice to anyone considering vines is to go ahead and plant them. If
> you change your mind later, you can always pull them up and plant begonias
> instead, but if you get the vines into the ground, you'll have grapes that
> much sooner.
>
> Paul
This is good advice for most worthwhile things in life. My small plot
was easy to plant. I can understand the expense and effort of a large
vineyard, but my 3 rows took a half day to prepare. I'm eying another
spot to plant next year as well. Only bad thing is that I may need to
change my email name!
Some procrastinate because the learning curve involved is daunting for
the newbie. I have read my books and internet sources MANY times and I
finally have absorbed some key info about viticulture. At the start it
was very imposing. Again, same could be said about many things I've
tackled in my life. Makes it all the more satisfying when you finally
see results.
Roger