Welsh and Dutch knitting
David W. Raber
The Scots and Irish have their cableknit fishermen's sweaters and Fair Isle
patterns. Anyone know about traditional Welsh knitting? The only Welsh
pattern I've seen is in Interweave Press' Folk Socks -- great pair of grey
and white walking socks I knit for my son.
I also understand the Dutch have a distinctive sweater pattern they use --
a bit like a gansey.
Any info on either of these knitting traditions is appreciated!
-- Jean
Dick Eney
In article <01bd788b$31955760$324ddacd@default>,
There's a great book on traditional Dutch fishermen's sweaters, from Lark
Books in Asheville, NC. _Knitting from the Netherlands_ by Henriette van
der Klift-Tellegen. 1985 ISBN 0-937274-17-8 ($12.55 hdcvr at Borders
Books)
The Dutch sailor's sweater was very much like a gansey (some were even
knitted in England to be sold to Dutch fishermen) but often had a large
diamond on the chest (even when there was no other pattern) and also a
drawstring at the neck (because the sweaters were felted so the neck lost
some stretch). The patterns given are beautiful, and there are lots of
good clear old photographs.
=Tamar
Linda Shoup
I saw a great book at the library called Knitting in the Netherlands. It
contains the types of sweaters you're talking about. They're even grouped
by stitch pattern according to which part of the country they're usually
found in. I can't help you with the Welsh stuff, though.
Linda.
David W. Raber (dra...@shianet.org) wrote:
: The Scots and Irish have their cableknit fishermen's sweaters and Fair Isle
: patterns. Anyone know about traditional Welsh knitting? The only Welsh
: pattern I've seen is in Interweave Press' Folk Socks -- great pair of grey
: and white walking socks I knit for my son.
: I also understand the Dutch have a distinctive sweater pattern they use --
: a bit like a gansey.
: Any info on either of these knitting traditions is appreciated!
: -- Jean
--
| You look like a man who can handle himself in bed
| ...and I bet you often do.
|
| linda...@hwcn.org
Kathleen Kinder
Dick et al - I do not think I have ever seen any distinctive Welsh
patterned knitting. We know stocking knitting was done in Wales as it was
done elsewhere from the 17th century onwards. The Welsh put their textile
skill into weaving and traditional Welsh geometric weaves are very popular
in blankets, rugs and throw-overs (afghans).
Patterned knitting of any kind is comparatively recent. The so-called
"traditional" Aran knitting is no more ancient than c.1910 when it was
introduced, we think, from central Europe. Tyrolean knitting is very
similar. Some of us have checked Irish records and late 19th century photos
of Irish fisherfolk and we know this to be true. For example, the only
knitting mentioned at the Irish Exhibition of 1886 (Olympia, London - I
have an original account in Mrs Leach's Workbasket) was the stockings with
little block of colour knitted into the tops. Crochet, lace and embroidery
were much in evidence. Incidentally, the Times newspaper account never
mentions knitting at all!
The Fair Isle tradition in Shetland and the ganseys of the fisher ports
were mostly from the second half of the 19th century onwards. Jerseys were
simply not worn as outerwear until the Sports boom of the 1880s onwards.
Other points re. the relative modernity of popular patterned knitting -
needles were not sufficently finely ground to do patterning work until the
middle of the 19th century and Berlin wool (1830s) and "fingering"
appeared about the same time. The exquisite work we have from the Middle
Ages was the work of master craftsmen who produced for a wealthy elite.
Best wishes Kathleen ( see my book Machine & Hand Knitting: Pattern Design
- Batsford 1990 and 92)--
Kathleen Kinder k.ki...@daelnet.co.uk
Dick Eney
In article <01bd79e9$215fa8a0$LocalHost@default>,
Kathleen Kinder <k.ki...@daelnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Dick et al - I do not think I have ever seen any distinctive Welsh
>patterned knitting. We know stocking knitting was done in Wales as it was
>done elsewhere from the 17th century onwards. The Welsh put their textile
>skill into weaving and traditional Welsh geometric weaves are very popular
>in blankets, rugs and throw-overs (afghans).
Agreed; Welsh stocking knitting was apparently strictly functional.
>Patterned knitting of any kind is comparatively recent. The so-called
>"traditional" Aran knitting is no more ancient than c.1910 when it was
>introduced, we think, from central Europe. Tyrolean knitting is very
>similar. Some of us have checked Irish records and late 19th century photos
>of Irish fisherfolk and we know this to be true.
True of _Irish_ fisherfolk from Aran. (And no one mentioned Aran until
you did just now.) The _British_ texture-patterned gansey is
well-documented in mid-19th century photos, from Cornwall and other
locations. Dutch texture-patterned knitting is documented by, among other
things, a 17th-century knitted cotton petticoat covered with different
animals in purl stitch. German texture-patterned knitting goes back at
least to the 16th century - a pair of silk trunk-hose, clearly a
Masterpiece, but evidence for the technique's acceptance at that time, as
it is unlikely that an unproven technique would have been accepted for a
Masterpiece.
>The Fair Isle tradition in Shetland and the ganseys of the fisher ports
>were mostly from the second half of the 19th century onwards. Jerseys were
>simply not worn as outerwear until the Sports boom of the 1880s onwards.
Jerseys were worn as _underwear_ before then, which is fairly well
documented (Turnau, Rutt). Also, the mid-19th century photos of the
Cornish fishermen show them wearing fine, patterned ganseys for formal
portraits. (The Dutch photos do also, but the book didn't give specific
dates for them, alas.)
>Other points re. the relative modernity of popular patterned knitting -
>needles were not sufficently finely ground to do patterning work until the
>middle of the 19th century and Berlin wool (1830s) and "fingering"
>appeared about the same time. The exquisite work we have from the Middle
>Ages was the work of master craftsmen who produced for a wealthy elite.
Here I beg to differ with you. Those master craftsmen in the Middle Ages
must have been using _some_ sort of finely tipped needles. Though
patterned work doesn't _require_ needles that are more finely tipped than
for regular knitting; it's just knitting with different colors and doing
purling. If you have needles you can knit with, you can do patterned
knitting with them. All it takes is skill and desire. And just enough
money to afford the extra yarn it takes for stranding color knitting,
although, according to _Twined Knitting_, socks were double-knitted in
Scandinavia anyway, so double knitting with a different color didn't cost
any more there.
Not all needles were steel. Knitting needles were home-made of young
briar shoots (Mary Thomas's book), other woods, and bone, and also made of
copper wire, all of which can be finely pointed. (It's harder to make a
blunt point on a wooden needle than it is to make a fine point.)
Fine "fingering" wool first appeared in the mid-19th century? What were
the stocking knitters using before then, to knit at 16 stitches per inch?
According to Turnau, Lee's knitting machine was rejected by the Europeans
until it was improved to knit at 16 stitches per inch, the minimum quality
insisted on for ordinary woolen socks.
>Best wishes Kathleen ( see my book Machine & Hand Knitting: Pattern Design
>- Batsford 1990 and 92)--
How can I buy a Batsford book? They're not sold here (USA), and the
bookstores here won't order from overseas. I tried to get a catalog, but
they won't send one to someone who hasn't _already_ bought a Batsford book
and sent in the card they enclose.
>Kathleen Kinder k.ki...@daelnet.co.uk
=Tamar (not Dick, though we use the same account)
Kathleen Kinder
Tamar - Many thanks for a spirited reply! When I was referring to the
Middle Ages and I could have added the 17th century jackets/wiastcoats, I
distinctly drew reference to the elitist nature of this knitting. It was
not "popular" at all! Silk was used of course. Later cotton was used for
jackets and undershirts by the framework knitters. Cotton gloves were
knitted by 18th c. handknitters. Wool was the material for frame knitted
shrouds.However, you could not have wool in popular patterned knitting in
any quantity until after the spinning jenny was invented (18th c).
Jerseys were not shirts - I beg to differ. Very little knitting was worn
as outerwear until the sports boom of the 1880s. One of the most famous
photographers of ganseys/guernseys was Frank Sedgwick and he was turn of
the century. There is a fine collection in Bowes Museum, near Barnard
Castle, Co. Durham (Bowes - the Queen Mother's family) There are no
photographs to my knowledge of ganseys around the mid 19th century - 1850.
That would be when the camera was invented surely? The fishermen wore
waistcoats as they did on Aran. See if you can get hold of from the library
J.M.Synge's The Aran Islands (1907). There is no mention of knitting at all
- weaving and spinning yes. The photos by Synge are excellent - he lived on
the island for a few years and describes the terrible poverty of the folk.
No Aran knitteds and the few jerseys are stocking stitch, machine knitted
ones, probably bought.
Mrs Sedgwick, the last Yorkshire Dales knitter, told me herself that it
was not until smooth, steel needles became available cheaply, that the
Dales knitters took to fine. patterned glove knitting. (Photo of her in
Rutt's book) You must also remember that poor people could not afford
lighting. Dales knitters knitted their stockings (in coarse wool called
bump) in the dark under the blankets when the rush and candle lights and
fire had gone out. You cannot do patterned knitting in those circumstances.
Clara Sedgwick also recalled that the people who could not afford to buy
the proper needles, used bent bicycle spokes which they filed to
smoothness! Presumably earlier they would use wood. I can't see wood going
in the knitting stick though and we have knitting sticks from the 17th
century. The knitting needles must have been metal of some kind because of
the pressure the knitter puts on the right needle in the sheath.stick! The
needles for the sticks were always bent and were known as "wires".
I'm afraid hand-knitting history has taken a long time to recover from the
romanticism of Heinz Kiewe - wonderful for him commercially during his
life, but it has made public acceptance by handknitters of objective
research extremely difficult. If people want to go on holding on to
theories which are shown to be wrong, then so be it! But they do the craft
no good in the long run, I'm afraid. All the evidence we have from
documentation, portraits and photos shows that knitting as main body
outerwear is a comparatively recent fashion. The reason is that it was and
is regarded as mainly "casual" wear, and casual was not acceptable as
fashion until this century (Chanel etc)..
Something that puzzles me is that there was no gansey/jersey knitting on
the west coast of England and Scotland. It is only on the east, European
continental side and it stopped at Cornwall. Was it something to do with
the movement of the shoals of herring? I recall one of Frank Sedgwick's
photos showing the fisher girls knitting while they waited for the catch to
be landed. Then they would drop their knitting and gut the fish.
My book Machine & Hand Knitting: Pattern Design- Batsford 1990 and 92)
was published by Arcor in the US. Try the library. Best wishes Kathleen
--
Kathleen Kinder k.ki...@daelnet.co.uk
Mirjam Bruck Cohen
Most Dutch knitting is Socks , in all patterns and forms , they even have
a special socks wool . also several islands had a special Female shoulder
shawl , very exclusive to Holland mirjam
David W. Raber
Mirjam Bruck Cohen <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote in article
<Pine.SUN.3.96-heb-2.07.9...@actcom.co.il>...
Thanks, Mirjam,
Any places I might find these patterns other than the sources already
mentioned? Many thanks,
Jean Hughes Raber
Kathleen Kinder
Mirjam - I have a book of Dutch ganseys and jerseys Nederlandse
sisserstruien - met breipatronen published 1983 by Canticleer De Bilt. See
if you can get it from the library. As in England very few people will do
this kind of hand knitting these days.
I am very interested that on p.63 there is a jersey from Middelharnis which
is done in patentsteek, known as half fisherman's rib or English rib here
in UK. The curious thing is that this stitch did not appear on English or
Scottish jerseys and guernseys - only on Dutch and Breton. Fisherman's rib
is also known in France as Brioche (sponge cake). When Marie Antoinette was
told the poor of France had no bread, she is reputed to have said "Let them
eat brioche!" Best wishes Kathleen
--
Kathleen Kinder k.ki...@daelnet.co.uk
Joyce Luby
On 10 May 1998 17:54:34 GMT, "Kathleen Kinder"
<k.ki...@daelnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Mirjam - I have a book of Dutch ganseys and jerseys Nederlandse
>sisserstruien - met breipatronen published 1983 by Canticleer De Bilt. See
>if you can get it from the library. As in England very few people will do
>this kind of hand knitting these days.
> (snip)
Not too many years ago, I did a lot of such knitting, which I hoped
might be commercial. While specialising in argylls, I did quite a lot
of jerseys, guernseys, ganseys, etc. Here in the south of Scotland, I
just couldn't shift quality hand knitting. With many small producers
advertising 'hand knitting' (often meaning hand knit on a machine),
and so many customers expecting heavyweight hand-knits at lightweight
C&A prices, I eventually had to give it up. I eventually sold the last
of my stock at half what it had cost me to make. At least hubby
dressed VERY warmly for many a year!
My hands are getting a little stiff for constant handknitting these
days, though I still do a certain amount, but just for myself and
close family/friends. I've now taken up cross-stitch to pass my
leisure hours.
Kathleen Kinder
Joyce - It is good to have your message. I know that traditional hand
knitting knitting has lasted in Scotland longer than anywhere else. I was
in Shetlend 10 years ago. Although hand knitters are very much in the
minority there now, at least they have transferred their wonderful sense of
colour ijn yarn usage to the machine. The Argyll pattern has an
interesting history for both hand and machine knitters. I'll look out the
info. and post later. Best wishes Kathleen
--
Kathleen Kinder k.ki...@daelnet.co.uk