Stitches/inch (cm), rows/inch (cm)
Martha Gallagher
I was about to print up some knitting graph paper to have on hand when
inspiration stuck, but I ran into a problem.
What I was going to do was create generic papers for the various yarn
weights. So, I'd have a graph for worsted weight at 5 st. per inch, one
for sport at 6 st. per inch, etc. I realize that sometimes my gauge won't
exactly match these, but it's close enough for government work.
The problem is that I've found a number of resources that give the
standard stitch/inch count for the various yarn weights, but none of them
list the corresponding row counts. Obviously, it won't work as graph paper
if I only specify the number of stitches per inch, but not the rows.
So, does anyone know what row the counts are for the various yarn weights,
or is there a standard percentage that usually applies in stocking stitch?
I know I could just knit up samples at each weight and measure them (and I
have the stash to do it! <g>), but I'm hoping someone just knows the
answer.
Thanks,
Martha Gallagher
--
Millie James
>
> Hello,
>
<snip> I realize that sometimes my gauge won't
> exactly match these, but it's close enough for government work.
>
> The problem is that I've found a number of resources that give the
> standard stitch/inch count for the various yarn weights, but none of them
> list the corresponding row counts. Obviously, it won't work as graph paper
> if I only specify the number of stitches per inch, but not the rows.
>
> So, does anyone know what row the counts are for the various yarn weights,
> or is there a standard percentage that usually applies in stocking stitch?
>
> I know I could just knit up samples at each weight and measure them (and I
> have the stash to do it! <g>), but I'm hoping someone just knows the
> answer.
>
> Thanks,
> Martha Gallagher
>
> --
Martha,
_Row_ gauge is probably less important than _stitch_ gauge, since you'll
normally knit or crochet up to the desired length in inches. I believe
you'll get many answers to your question(s), since knitting worsted
weight and any knit and crochet yarn seem to come in differing
thicknesses depending on the yarn brand. Also, you'll get even greater
differences in gauges depending on how each person knits or crochets --
too loose, too tight, just right -- so, getting that proper stitch *and*
row gauges right (or perfect or on the dot) is probably unlikely (or
nerve-wracking).
Here is what I've found among my (yarn) stash ...
"Thick & Quick" Chenille
Size P crochet hook
3 sts = 2"; 8 rows = 5"
#11 knitting needles
2 sts & 4 rows = 1"
Caron Knit and Crochet Yarn
Size I crochet hook
3 1/2 sts & 4 rows = 1"
#8 knitting needles
4 1/2 sts & 6 rows = 1"
Red Heart Classic
Size H crochet hook &
#8 knitting needles
15 sts & 22 rows = 4"
Caron Wintuk
Size I crochet hook
8 sts = 2"; 5 rows = 1"
#8 knitting needles
9 sts = 2"; 6 rows = 1"
Red Heart Super Sport
Size G crochet hook &
#6 knitting needles
20 sts & 27 rows = 4"
Red Heart Sport
Size G crochet hook &
#6 knitting needles
22 sts & 30 rows = 4"
Lion Brand Baby Soft
Size G crochet hook
4 sts & 5 rows = 1"
#6 knitting needles
5 1/2 sts & 7 1/2 rows = 1"
... Also, both a knitting and cotton worsted weight yarns only mention
the stitch gauge, and both a 3-ply worsted and baby weight yarns gave
neither the stitch nor row gauges at all.
One reference book suggests knitting or crocheting a swatch (for both
knitting and crocheting) four times the desired number of stitches and
rows to the inch. For example, 2 sts & 4 rows = 1" -- make a swatch 8
sts by 16 rows. Also, check the row (or vertical) gauge on the wrong or
purl side of stockinette stitch knitting. Note: In both knitting and
crocheting, this book suggests placing the two pins at 1" in the middle
of the swatch, then counting the stitches or rows (for the gauge).
_ _ _ _ _
~ Millie ma...@eagle.ptialaska.net
Parisi & Watson
yarn. 6 st/in horizontal and 8 rows/in for sport weight. 5.5st/ in
horizontal and 7.5 rows/ in. in DK weight. Because row guage seems to differ
from hand to hand even more than stitch guage, I usually suggestmaking a
guage of each pattern your are using. This is especially true if you are
doing an Aran with many different patterns in one row. You will have to
design your sweater so that you end on some multiple of the row guage for a
finished look.
--
Mary-Ann Parisi
Knitters Niche
3206 North Southport
Chicago, Illinois 60657
(773)472-YARN
Martha Gallagher wrote in message ...
>Hello,
>
>I was about to print up some knitting graph paper to have on hand when
>inspiration stuck, but I ran into a problem.
>
>What I was going to do was create generic papers for the various yarn
>weights. So, I'd have a graph for worsted weight at 5 st. per inch, one
>for sport at 6 st. per inch, etc. I realize that sometimes my gauge won't
Millie James
>
> In article <39482D3B...@eagle.ptialaska.net>, Millie James wrote:
> >Martha Gallagher wrote:
>
> [snip me asking about row gauges]
>
>
> That's exactly right. I'm just looking for an approximation to graph
> out an intarsia pattern. Once I have a working pattern, I'll knit the
> intarsia section to fine tune it. But I figured it'd be easier to start
> with it basically graphed proportionally and then work from there.
>
>
> Thanks, this is great. Using this and the numbers Mary-Ann gave me, I'll
> print up some graph paper and then copy my design onto it.
>
> This is going to be fun. I've designed many of my own sweaters, but this
> is the first time I've created an intarsia design. :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Martha
>
Martha,
You're way ahead of me on that one. :)
Lately, I'm looking into double knitting, and knitting continues to
surprise me ...
Martha S. Gallagher
>Martha Gallagher wrote:
[snip me asking about row gauges]
,
>_Row_ gauge is probably less important than _stitch_ gauge, since you'll
>normally knit or crochet up to the desired length in inches. I believe
>you'll get many answers to your question(s), since knitting worsted
>weight and any knit and crochet yarn seem to come in differing
>thicknesses depending on the yarn brand. Also, you'll get even greater
>differences in gauges depending on how each person knits or crochets --
>too loose, too tight, just right -- so, getting that proper stitch *and*
>row gauges right (or perfect or on the dot) is probably unlikely (or
>nerve-wracking).
>
That's exactly right. I'm just looking for an approximation to graph
out an intarsia pattern. Once I have a working pattern, I'll knit the
intarsia section to fine tune it. But I figured it'd be easier to start
with it basically graphed proportionally and then work from there.
>Here is what I've found among my (yarn) stash ...
Thanks, this is great. Using this and the numbers Mary-Ann gave me, I'll
print up some graph paper and then copy my design onto it.
This is going to be fun. I've designed many of my own sweaters, but this
is the first time I've created an intarsia design. :-)
Thanks,
Martha
>
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
Partly in Despair , partly in Wonderment !!!!! I do Not believe there
can be A STandard nore Normal guague to wool and Why make special
paper for it , but this is a path we seem to cross , every several
months ... some of you believe as i see in making a pattern In real
size of The knitted garments , which to my feelings, understanding and
almost 50 years of knitting experince complimtely a waste of Time
money paper ,,,,,,, But Alas ,,, since every several months somebody
comes up with this ideas .... than i have to accept that several
people Just NEED it .
But to make standard paper for it !!!! YES i know !!!! we have heard
it all .
I had to let out this last cry of amamzement and hope not to Talk
about this anymore mirjam
Mlowe99
motifs always look much too tall on a professional pattern -- they work out
with proper proportions when knit. And why if graphed on the assumption that
the rows/inch and stitches/inch are the same the motif will look stubby. The
only way to be sure how a motif or other color pattern will look when knit is
to make a sample. Other than for color patterns and some stitch patterns such
as diamond shapes, rows/inch don't really matter, and I simply refuse to worry
about it!
Martha Gallagher
Yeah, but, Mirjam, not everyone is as *wonderful* as you are.
Heh.
Anyway, thanks to everyone who responded. I'm spinning the most lustrous
dark gray Lincoln for this. It's so shiny, in some lights it looks wet.
Very cool. :-)
Martha
Millie James
>
> Martha
> , I do NOT Understand Your Comment !!!
> >, Mirjam, not everyone is as *wonderful* as you are.
> with waht they have and making such ppaer seems a buit strange to me ,
> And Unneeeded ,,, but Ok if you think it helps you By all meands Go
> ahead make and Use it , I think that many an creative Idea came into
> the world Becuase people HAD to solve a Problem , had to make without
> , Had to find a way Around A problem ,, and thus Trained their
> creative abilitives ,, having it all laid out ,,,,, sure takes out a
> lot of the Fun of solving the enigma !!!! mirjam
> Soory if my writings annoy you . mirjam
Mirjam,
Martha's (new) knitting project -- intarsia -- involves row gauge (as
well as stitch gauge) for a good reason: to "paint an inlayed or mosaic
tiled picture." Here's a site that shows the kind of work she's
endeavoring to take on (from a word search that I did) ...
http://search.britannica.com/frm_redir.jsp?query=intarsia&redir=http://www.cybertours.com/borealis
Some of these pictures are quite amazing in the overall work! [--Though,
I imagine, it takes a certain kind of determination or inspiration to do
it.]
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
Martha S. Gallagher
> , I do NOT Understand Your Comment !!!
> >, Mirjam, not everyone is as *wonderful* as you are.
> There is No need to be so cynical , Like mae many people learn to do
Sarcastic, I think, not cynical (or at least not as represented in this
thread).
> with waht they have and making such ppaer seems a buit strange to me ,
> And Unneeeded ,,, but Ok if you think it helps you By all meands Go
Ok, if you wanted to translate a picture into a knitted fabric, could you
tack a picture on a bulletin board, sit down and start knitting
directly from that?
"Knit 14 stitches background color, knit 2, 3, maybe 5? stitches for the
foot, knit, oh, um say 20 stitches background color, then, hmmm, I'm
guessing 4 stitches of yellow for the next foot, etc."
Maybe you can do that and maybe that works really well for you. For me,
it's *much* easier to use graph paper in order to create a chart. That
doesn't mean the design work is over. I still have to knit it, see where
the chart needs to be modified in order to make the knitted fabric display
what I see on the picture. My older sister was a needlepoint designer. For
simple or geometrical patterns, I've seen her just pick up the canvas and
start stitching. But, if she was doing a complicated design, even if it
wasn't one she was going to produce commercially, she'd paint the
canvas. It took a little more work, but she found it made it faster and
easier than if she had to make it up as she went along. It also helped her
identify problems in her design before she was halfway through a good size
canvas.
> ahead make and Use it , I think that many an creative Idea came into
> the world Becuase people HAD to solve a Problem , had to make without
Yeah, and using tools such as graph paper, calculators and rulers are
ways that people designed to make problem solving easier. Sure, you can do
it without, and if you want to, that's fine with me, but other people make
different choices and they're not wrong for doing so.
> , Had to find a way Around A problem ,, and thus Trained their
> creative abilitives ,, having it all laid out ,,,,, sure takes out a
> lot of the Fun of solving the enigma !!!! mirjam
>
Well, I disagree. I designed a sweater for a friend who was training to be
a blacksmith. I created horseshoes, a hammer, tongs, and a few other
symbols using cables. I found it pretty challenging on a creative and
technical level, even though I used graph paper. Sure, eventually I
probably could have worked out the appropriate dimensions for a knitted
horseshoe using trial and error, but as far as I'm concerned, using tools
to make a task easier is a good thing. (If anyone wants it, sorry, I lost
my notes for that one the last time I moved.)
On page 45 of _Alice Starmore's Book of Fair Isle Knitting_, she says
"using graph paper and pen, I later recreated the image in this allover
pattern." Does this mean that Alice Starmore fails your test of
creativity? Or, should we say that her creativity lies in seeing a flower
and thinking "what would that look like knitted?"
>Soory if my writings annoy you . mirjam
>
I am not annoyed, but I am offended that someone asks a question that is
clearly on-topic for this group and then hears that you're tired of the
question and never want to hear it again. And then further, that anyone
who takes a different approach to design is somehow less creative as a
result of their choices. We don't all do things the same way, but, as far
as I'm concerned, what is important is our enjoyment of the time we spend
knitting (including the preparatory stages) and creating a finished
product that we are proud of.
Martha "there's no wrong way to eat a Reeses" Gallagher
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
Thank you for a very honest answer !
Again i would like to aplolgize if by anyway word or sentence I have
offended you personnaly which I did not mean to do.
Also By your answer I see that some more words have to be clarified.
>Sarcastic, I think, not cynical (or at least not as represented in this
Sarcasm.....
But Now seriously! There are many ways i whicj one can translate a
picture into knitted [ or woven or other] facbric , each picture has
it`s special charcterics , and The translation method you use , might
be ibnfluenced , euther by habit of work or by nature of wanted
results , I have not condemed your way i just was a bit mystifyed that
everuy period people are coming up with this Special graph paper
ideas, Ansd I do indeed appreciate as well resppect your wanting to
need it as well as ability to make your paper in amatter that servees
You , But There are also peopl who can produce such atranslation
without having special prepered paper , Artist all over GHistory
produced TOOLS , and in this discussion your Graph paper is your tool
to make a your creation in better way !!!!!
thing In front of me on the bookshelves that are about 3 metters away
from me and i do work from This impression !!!!! or with this
impression , of course it is not waht I see exactly but my impression
of it , But over the years i have woven my own portrait looking only
at a Passport photo of me !!! and other works like that .
problems of Not having something , made for creativity!!!!! i did Not
SAY this was The ONLY way to produce creative work I said It was a
creative Need for Many people not ALL people !!!!
Some people create By breaking rules or making their own , some people
crate with the Axccepted Work traditions , The result is the important
thing not the method !
by No means do i say Other methods are Not creative , I only said that
not everyone needs all those graph paper !!!!!
talk about this anymore ,,,, but i know many young New knitters get
the frihgt ,, i have been told by many that they are stopping to knit
since They can`t afford all this special [ unabble to buy here oir
find it] papers , and other paraphnelia that One NEEDS t do creative
knitting and that is my bother not to make this people feel less
because of this.
times The Need !!makes many a time for creative solutions !!!!
i hope you soon have all the enjoyment of your new project !!!
mirjam
Mirjam Bruck Cohen
understand what intarsia is . mirjam
Mirjam Bruck Cohen
Marilyn Thompson
I have to use graph paper too and then it still looks funny. I am one that
needs to use the graphs given for a certain picture. When I was using my
knitting machine, I did try graphs for names and small designs.
lyn
Parisi & Watson
or knit a sweater. I have seen some of Mirjam work from pictures she was
kind enough to send me. Her work is beautiful impressionistic art. It would
never be interpreted as Norman Rockwell realism, but more like Monet.
I have also just picked up two needles and various colors of yarn, and let
the yarn direct my work. Those have been some of my best projects. I also
use graph paper when I want a very realistic look as when I was doing a
parrot on a sweater. The placement of each feather and color had to be exact
for the type of realism I was attempting.
I agree with Mirjam about all this knitters graph paper being an unnecessary
expense. I just go to the corner drug store and buy some students 4 square
to the inch graph paper. Yes, I know that the 5 to 7 relationship of
knitting will disfigure the picture a little, but it is proportional enough
for me to get the picture. Did a sweater of a forest scene one time. Really
needed the graph paper to place the various elements. Actually it is because
I'm lazy and do not like to rip that I find it easier to erase paper than
undo knitting.
In the end there are very few pictures that will look exactly the same in
knitting as they do on paper. Some of you may have the book with the great
masterpieces of western art plotted out on graph paper for sweaters. Da
vinci, Raphael, Degas, Gaughan and some of the more modern artists
paintings made into sweaters and dresses. Even made the Michaelangelo Head
of David sweater. They are lovely sweaters but they do not look like
paintings as there is movement in a sweater which distorts the image.
Sometimes for better and sometimes for worse.
If you are designing an intarsia pattern and feel a need to see how the
elements of the design fit together, using graph paper can be a help if you
want as realistic a duplicate of the picture as possible. It will still not
be exactly the same as the picture. If you want something more
impressionistic, pick up your needles and go.
--
Mary-Ann Parisi
Knitters Niche
3206 North Southport
Chicago, Illinois 60657
(773)472-YARN
Marilyn Thompson wrote in message ...
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
As always you have caught the Unraveling stich , just before it
Glitched and made a Hole in the Subject,
I thank you for understanding waht Martha Did Not see that I was Not
attacking nore offending her , but just comenting on some genral
phenomenae ,,,,
Tools should be tools and not a means or a goal in themselves.
for most people here the End result is the most important part and
many are lucky also to get satisfaction and joy from the Process of
making as well .
How many of you actually WAlk into the Kitchen , of each resturant you
eat in, or even more How many of you are interested to see How your
READY Made Bought Food is made .... Not many i am sure !!!!!
So here we are ready to share knowledge , but I in my naivitee ,
thought that also ideas about techniques validity or posiibilities was
relevant to this group . If i would want to hear Only about the
technique and How I made this X and that y i can go to places where
some people Share this Knowledge over coffee and cake ..... While
boring me ...... No i want the discussion , i wnat to know that ifd I
decide after all [ Becuase You MIGHT convince MARTHA !!!!] to change
My method , Why i change it !!!!!! Tjis is waht i expected of an
expert group like here to do , Only BY openly Discussing it we will
learn all of us , by leaving options oipen , my only Crime was that i
said i personaly do not want to mingle in this discussion any more ,
>Ther are many ways to skin a cat
[ :>:>:>:}
as impressionistic , must send you some more pictures , maybe you can
share more ideas like that with me ' :>:>:>] but seriously , i am
realy not so sure about the Header i shoud give my kind of work,
I do a lot of Memories work , I try to cvvisualize feelings , I try to
convey out stories , memorized Sights and feelings , i endured as a
child or later , the frights, hopes and other feelings I carry with
me. I llive in a country that vibrates with happening , historical
political, and has not dried the Wonderment about Our achievements ,
nore the tears about our losses ,,,,, and all this comes out in my
works ,,, impressionistic ,,,,, Another person , last week said
Conceptual To me !!! in Usa they Said European Bauhaus ! coming back
to Israel after studing In Bu they said AMericanised , while an
Italian Artist Said 'How Eastern !', other people say i do political
art , Romatic art , Neo Baroque [?] and other words , in all Since i
make various works ,,, it depends maybe what part of my work you have
seen .
As To Knitting Being Realistic <<<< come On IT never Will Be REALISTIC
, it might be close to Realistic , but never the same ,,, if you
translate as you very well PUt it Martha !! a picture from a straight
Rigid element Unto Knitting , it will look and feel Different , If you
want an exact Copy !!!!! WHY knit It than .....
This was maybe another elemmant i should havr answered to you about or
relate to , When we choose a Technique of work , WE are usually Aware
of IT`s special Cahracter , and when making something we should know
WHY we chose to transalte this into that technique !!!!!!!
Wheneverv I create anywork , I choose to make it in this specific
technique, since this in it self is another element that adds to the
final look and impression the Artifact will convety to the looker .
I chose this technique so that looker will Accept from it something
that Shines towards Because It Ismade in This way .....
When ever i guides Students to their End of course work , and they
chose atechnique [ weaving knitting etc..] i asked them to explain WHY
they chose It , Or let`s rephrase that What are your final expected
results ,
We touch here , on the border of people who embroider A copy of a
famous Painting , let`s say The Mona lissa .....and How much they are
Creative in doing so ? Is there immensely hard work In making an Exact
Embroiderec replica of A famous Painted picture creative or not ?
OOOPS This is danger zone stuff Please Do Not Flamm Me ,, i touch it
as an Illustration to some of the Undertones , to which Martha reacted
!!!! and HiT back at me . I have had this discussion in many levels
and i usually conclude that people Need some sort of creative Drive to
be making that , but ppeople who make their own have another sort of
creative drive , both are creative , But not same kind of Mind frames
are in working .
>ype ealism I was attempting.
Three cheers of HurrayMARY-ANN you just said the GOOD term TYPE OF
rEALISM wow wow wow !!!!!
>knitting as they do on paper
THank you Mary -Ann , if i would have worn a hat i would have taken it
off in respect !!!!
mirjam
Laurie Graham
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen wrote in message <snip> How many of you are interested to
see How your
>READY Made Bought Food is made .... Not many i am sure !!!!!
>We touch here , on the border of people who embroider A copy of a
>famous Painting , let`s say The Mona lissa .....and How much they are
>Creative in doing so ? Is there immensely hard work In making an Exact
>Embroiderec replica of A famous Painted picture creative or not ?
>mirjam
I actually am interested in how food is prepared (and furniture, clothes,
cars, etc.) :D But I come from a different background than Mirjam -- or
maybe it's better to say that my mind works differently, I think! I like to
know the rules and why they're there *first* -- then I can break them. This
creativity thing -- are you familiar w/ the works of Andy Warhol? How
creative was his soup can or his Marilyn pictures? :D My *personal*
definition of art is -- if the creator says it's an artistic expression,
it's art. (Art is in the eyes of the creator.) I see myself as very
creative, but that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy creating an exact replica
of something as an expression of my mastery of a craft. I find that very
satisfying. But I do balk at the general opinion that all "Art" is drawing
and painting -- I was just commenting on this to a friend -- there are so
many ways to make a creative expression, and it frustrates me when people
say they're not artistic simply because they can't draw!
Laurie
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
Thank you for joining this very interesting subject !!!!
I do not know why you pointed out the obvious that we have completely
different backgrounds , in this debate this has no relevance , I think
, since this are after all ALL human subjects , But i might surprise
you that even if i was not interested , and I am very much in the how
and why of Everything , and i thought that after Writing and reading
with me for such a long time this would be Obvious !!!! I should be
interested by the nature of my culture that is very strict to waht and
in waht connection we eat our foods , Had i not been a vegetarian ,
than i can not eat meat and milk foods together , thus i will have to
know exact contens of all foods , But By my nature i am very very
curious ..... and want to know the How It` Done , and what is in it
????
Also Years Of Own cooking and baking in amounts that would Surprise
you !!!! under an assortment of conditions , have made me quite aware
about this matters !!!! Buy many people i have met are not intertsted
, if i ask politely while abroad , about the food contents many a Non
Israeli Raises thier eye brows in wonderment ?? why do you have to
Know That ???
I also can nort wear non natural materials which made me learn a lot
of chenistry to know which material will not inflame me !,
> I like to
Me too I like and NEED top know the Rules of every thing I work with
or touch , When we were in high School ans lived on a Farm , i was the
only girl who took apart The whole Agricultural machines with which we
worked , i have repaired tractors m, told the car mechanic Exactly
What was wrong with the car , OIpened Door Not with Keys , and more
...Before i work it I have to klnow How it operates , thus in this we
are Quite alike Laurie .
And of course his Soup can is Art since he wanted to Say something
about The consumeristic society !!!!
last year , in class one First year student complained to the
superviser that Her Teacher , Did not give her Enough time 'To finish
Her WORK of ART , since ghhwe had No answer and I was there as his
adviser he threw the question Into my arms !!!so to speak ,,,, I
inquired and it was the Her First Ever Sampler , done completely and
exactly according the rules anf\d instructions given by her teacher ,
Now i told her , that it might be VERY decortaive But It IS NOT ART By
any definition !!! it is/was an exercise !!!!!
An other time i saw one student who photographed one part of a a work
of mine , and she made a Copy of it ,,, was it art ? of course not was
it creative ???? i felt it was more Cunning !!!! Some of the Designers
here wopuld say it was breaking the copyright laws , If she had not
paid me or gotten my permision ,
Is copying creative Only When Ione pays the original designer ?
I wonder ? We all USE waht we see around us we are all impressed and
absorb waht we see images , forms , colors , it is absolutely creative
when We MIX it all in our minds and Come up with Our own idea, Lock
stock and barrel ,,,,
Lauri You Can not Say that I would even Hint
isuch an Idea . OF course NOT ALL ART IS drawings and Sculpture , My
ART is all Fiber made all in Fiberistic techniques .. I just took part
in a group exhibition where i felt uneasy since some of the women
Painted Over embroideries or drew embroideries , and the professsor
who led his students around , spoke about My Real Fiber expressiveness
without Running to hide behind some Paint , he said he loved this ALL
knit or all weave or ALL sew I made , as if i stateed this is MY way
of creating and i am not going to use Any `conventional accepted
Artistic method , just so that You accept My work !!!
I am basicly a Fiberartist and have missed several important polaces
to show Becuase i would not change my Art name !!!!
Like You Laurie I believe that People can be creative ibn so many ways
as long as they are honest about it !! and make waht the feel inthe
way they feel is best for them .
mirjam
>
Laurie Graham
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen wrote in message <394e13c...@news.actcom.co.il>...
>Hallo Dear Laurie !
>Thank you for joining this very interesting subject !!!!
>I do not know why you pointed out the obvious that we have completely
>...Before i work it I have to klnow How it operates , thus in this we
>are Quite alike Laurie .
>> are you familiar w/ the works of Andy Warhol?
>And of course his Soup can is Art since he wanted to Say something
>about The consumeristic society !!!!
>>definition of art is -- if the creator says it's an artistic expression,
>Well Here we might differ a bit ,
>exactly according the rules anf\d instructions given by her teacher ,
>Now i told her , that it might be VERY decortaive But It IS NOT ART By
>any definition !!! it is/was an exercise !!!!!
>An other time i saw one student who photographed one part of a a work
>Lauri You Can not Say that I would even Hint
>isuch an Idea . OF course NOT ALL ART IS drawings and Sculpture , My
>Like You Laurie I believe that People can be creative ibn so many ways
>as long as they are honest about it !! and make waht the feel inthe
>way they feel is best for them .
>
>mirjam >
Friend Mirjam,
You misunderstand me! I mean that we think differently maybe because we
have different personality types (something that I've been reading about)
*not* because of different cultures -- I've found I see the world and react
to it very differently than my twin sister who has a different personality
type than me -- even tho we were raised side by side!
I agree that an exact copy is not generally a "work of art" (and boy have I
gotten some flack for that opinion!). However, if the artist is making a
copy as an artistic expression or impression it is. Example -- if I exactly
recreate the "Mona Lisa" out of dog poop to express my feelings about the
state of the art world today, that's an artistic expression; by my
definition that's "Art". So my question to the young student would have
been -- if this is a "work of art" then what are you trying to say, and how
have you gone about saying it? Going back to the "Mona Lisa" -- if I paint
an exact replica as an expression of my feelings about the art world today
then by my definition that is "Art" as well. In both cases I've made a
"statement" (Neither very subtle, I'll admit; but I've never been accused of
that :D) As I said, this is my own personal definition of "Art" and not
widely held by others. This leads to the discussion of what is "Art" and
what is "Craft"? I see art as decorative and craft as functional
(generally) but the two overlap enormously! What if something is
artistically functional? Or functionally artistic? :D (BTW, I view myself
as a craftsperson, not an artist. While I'm very creative, I'm not making
any statements w/ my work, and as a general rule it's all functional.)
And finally, Mirjam, I was agreeing w/ you that the view that "Art" can only
be drawing and sculpture is wrong. Robert Fulghum (a kind of modern
philosopher) wrote an essay about this kind of thing. Basically he said
that if you ask a group of 5-year-olds if anyone can sing they'll all say
"Yes, I can sing, let's sing a song now!" But if you ask a group of
25-year-olds if anyone can sing almost all of them will say "No, I can't
sing." Only those who are exceptionally talented will say they can. He
said (and I agree) that this was a terrible loss. You can say the same
thing about "Art."
Laurie
Jane Boulet
message and sent to Mirjam personally instead of to the group. It has
taken me a day to figure out why I got a personal reply to my posting
and could not find it on the newsgroup listing. Then it has taken me
another couple of hours to even find the message on this computer that I
have been attempting to build but which has not be assisting me in
becoming, it seems to continually want to do things its way and not
mine. Anyway, my apologies to the group and to Mirjam - what follows is
what I meant to send last night. Jane
.................................................................
Just before I turned 40, I decided to go back to school and finish my BA
and
while I started out with the idea of studying psychology, I ended up in
Fine
Arts. During this three years of intense study, I also spent a year at
college taking clothing construction & design including machine
knitting. I
wanted to make wearable art.
I got caught up in the problem then of what was art. Why was it if I
painted
a design on silk, it was craft, but if I painted the same design on
canvas,
it would be art. I spent a number of years agonizing over this and
after a
number of wall hangings, papier mache sculptures incorporating fabric,
paintings, quilted paintings, I have come to the realization that for me
there are times when I make garments and there are times when I make
art.
Sometimes the art is wearable but in my mind it is still a garment. I
can
use very creative and artistic elements in making my coats and jackets,
but
they are still coats and jackets. There is definitely an element of
functionality about them. When I am making a garment strictly thinking
in an
artistic way, it is not necessarily totally functional. I would not
wear it
to do shopping. Mostly, it would be worn to be put in a show.
I have come to a point where I cannot create without incorporating
knitting
and/or fabric, both in my art and in my garment-making. I can no longer
allow what other people think of my work to determine what I do. There
are
times when I just have to start something and see what will turn out.
Either
the colour calls or the texture or shape, something compels me to make
something. It is quite invigorating and also at times difficult when I
cannot bend the object my hands is manipulating to match what my mind
wants
to form.
I have found over the years that what I consider art has had to be
expanded,
my mind had to be opened to other ideas. It is only be keeping my mind
open
that I keep my mind young. I try to not judge - I do, of course - but
by
prying my mind open, I am continually surprised and overjoyed at the
creativity of not only us humans but the entire world.
Jane in Toronto, Canada where it doesn't seem to want to stop raining
these
days.
Laurie Graham
Jane Boulet wrote in message <39515E02...@netrover.com>...
<snip>
>I got caught up in the problem then of what was art. Why was it if I
>painted
>a design on silk, it was craft, but if I painted the same design on
>canvas,
have come to the realization that for me
>
>there are times when I make garments and there are times when I make
>art.
>Sometimes the art is wearable but in my mind it is still a garment. I
>can
>use very creative and artistic elements in making my coats and jackets,
>but
>they are still coats and jackets. There is definitely an element of
>functionality about them. When I am making a garment strictly thinking
>in an
>artistic way, it is not necessarily totally functional. I would not
>wear it
>to do shopping. Mostly, it would be worn to be put in a show.
>I have found over the years that what I consider art has had to be
>expanded,
where it doesn't seem to want to stop raining
>these
>days.
Hurrah! This is exactly what I was trying to convey! As I said, my views
on art are my own (and nothing is black and white!) But every so often I'll
see some media bruhaha about "Is this Art?" and then I'll start thinking
about it again. Funny how all this stuff comes up at once -- when this
discussion began here my 11 yo began a discussion w/ me about what is art
and what is craft as well. (And what's wrong w/ craft? Why does everyone
want to call their craft work art work? Why is it that when someone masters
a craft they "become" an artist? What's wrong w/ "Master Craftsman/woman"?)
Laurie
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
you wanted it on Public list , i will look if I can find it, to send
it to the group as well But if not maybe you can forward my answer as
well .
Now here comes a story a bit longish but it has a Bearing on this talk
we are having ,,, like Laurie mentioned In her L:etter It all comes In
a Flood.
I went this morning to meet my daughter , but before this went early
enough [by train -to Tel Aviv ] and first went to shop that sellls
cheaper books [ damaged unsold etc
Now here is what ,,, and this in a country where books like this are
RAAAAREEEEE . [ Now all the people who agonized about my discussing
pattern use May raise an Eyebrow and smile !!] i found a book called ,
Better HomMes and gardens 2001 Cross stich designs , And I got it
because it was So cute i loved some Kitties Bears and other Baby
mitifs ,, and as it was Undeprized to 10$ i thought Well let`s buy it
, if i do not like it I can always Gift it , to one of my friends , it
is also more a kind Of Dictionary for Motifs , always good and handy
to have , many of my friends are becoming Grand mamas and they want
some pattern to do some cute things !!!! and it is a lovely book for
browsing !! And I found a book called Vanna`s Favorite Gift Afghans
for 2 $ , perfect for my friend who loves to make afghans and has a
birthday ,,,, [ not becuase if the price , but becuase of the
Beautiful patters , she just complained she was looking for some NEW
patters ,,,,
Than i went to the TelAviv M<useum to See Local Artist Yossele Bergner
, retrospective Exhibition , He would be very interesting , for
Fiberartists , since He uses as MODELS , various tools as Irons , The
`body` tailors uses to sew clothes on , In his marvelous picture 'THE
TAILOR~S DREAM ' A FLOCK of thos Dummies
fly towars the horizon , i found no poster nore postcard of this work
, but mean to write and ask the Museum whether they could provide such
postcard Also when he draws clothes , they are not realistic in form ,
yet they are realistic enough in recognizing the material , you see it
is linnen , jeans and such .
Than i went to see an exhibition by Gharda Amer , An Egyptian born
Lady who now resides In New york , she Embroiders [ mainly with flat
long stiches on Real Painting canvas , than she paints over it ,
Which is immensely interesting , and is accepted as art in The
conventional way , by painting over the canvas she Turns It Into a
`conventional ` Art piece that `happenes` to have `also ` some threads
!!!
Here i saw The debate Art / craft taking A new spin , as well as the
Craft= women`s work , art= man`s domain , Theme that stil hoverrs
over us, a lot here in Israel and I hope less in Usa !!!
mirjam
Ps Jane pleas No apologies Needed mirjam
>Just before I turned 40, I decided to go back to school and finish my BA
>and
>while I started out with the idea of studying psychology, I ended up in
>Fine
>Arts. During this three years of intense study, I also spent a year at
>college taking clothing construction & design including machine
>knitting. I
>wanted to make wearable art.
>I got caught up in the problem then of what was art. Why was it if I
>painted
>a design on silk, it was craft, but if I painted the same design on
>canvas,
>it would be art. I spent a number of years agonizing over this and
>after a
>number of wall hangings, papier mache sculptures incorporating fabric,
>paintings, quilted paintings, I have come to the realization that for me
>
>there are times when I make garments and there are times when I make
>art.
>Sometimes the art is wearable but in my mind it is still a garment. I
>can
>use very creative and artistic elements in making my coats and jackets,
>but
>they are still coats and jackets. There is definitely an element of
>functionality about them. When I am making a garment strictly thinking
>in an
>artistic way, it is not necessarily totally functional. I would not
>wear it
>to do shopping. Mostly, it would be worn to be put in a show.
>I have come to a point where I cannot create without incorporating
>knitting
>and/or fabric, both in my art and in my garment-making. I can no longer
>
>allow what other people think of my work to determine what I do. There
>are
>times when I just have to start something and see what will turn out.
>Either
>the colour calls or the texture or shape, something compels me to make
>something. It is quite invigorating and also at times difficult when I
>cannot bend the object my hands is manipulating to match what my mind
>wants
>to form.
>I have found over the years that what I consider art has had to be
>expanded,
>my mind had to be opened to other ideas. It is only be keeping my mind
>open
>that I keep my mind young. I try to not judge - I do, of course - but
>by
>prying my mind open, I am continually surprised and overjoyed at the
>creativity of not only us humans but the entire world.
>
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
sokld Not in alingery shop but in a Boutique , so people want to Up
lift theiir status , nothing bad in that , and if al it takes is Use A
name that Sounds Higher Up The Hierarchy ,,,,,, why not ???
It is more confusinf and annoying to those of Us who try to exhbit or
sell our works , since there is a confusion , it harms all , the
public the artistts the carfters ...... Nobody seems To Know anymore
What the proper name is for acertain item ,,,, all LOOSE eventually
!!!!
Art and craft always sort of ZigZaged in and out eachother`s closets ,
and to confuse us even more the Craft of Yesterday , might over 10-100
years suddenly be considered ART , as trends change , in deffinitions
as well ,
I feel very much like jane that in fact I DO both ART and Craft Items
, and that i also do items that Are part both !!!!
Whenever I make something , I do afterall , come with all my abilities
, feelings , knowledge , I do not tell myself [ nore can I ] Taste in
collors Use Only In Art , GOOD quality use only in craft .. Of course
not , I make Both with all my Might !!!! ]
It seems Laurie that basicly we do have the same ideas and feelings
toward this subject , mirjam
>
Millie James
>
<snip>
> !!!
> Here i saw The debate Art / craft taking A new spin , as well as the
> Craft= women`s work , art= man`s domain , Theme that stil hoverrs
> over us, a lot here in Israel and I hope less in Usa !!!
> mirjam
Mirjam and all,
I believe it's more like this ...
*Crafters* are those who make homemade items to be given away to friends
and family or for charity ...
And, *Artists* are those who make items for a public showing (and
[personal] fame -?- ) for a price ...
... And, NOT necessarily a male or female thing ...
Mirjam Bruck Cohen
> and family or for charity ...
crafted items that are sold in quite GOOD shops
While
> [personal] fame -?- ) for a price ...
story to share , have to Do all sort of other Unrelated Jobs To survive
I will tell that to the next gallery owner who expects Us artist to cover
most expenses ,, mirjam
Millie James
Mirjam,
LOL!
I had an *after-thought* that pretty much went along with your
sentiment. It went like this ...
RE: Crafters ... though some Crafters have been paid handsomely for
their livelihood, and live very well in all respects.
RE: Artists ... though some Artists have invested more into their Art
with no return during their lives, or later -- decades or centuries --
were paid millions for their art (work) long after their deaths.
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
since this Is how it looks ....
making money or fame from Art HA !!! sometimes i think the critics
make the fame ,,,, and the money ?? I wonder who if at all gets That
????? mirjam
Don or Terry Devine
Terry Devine
Jane Boulet wrote:
> I wish to apologize to the group and to Mirjam. I wrote the following
> message and sent to Mirjam personally instead of to the group. It has
> taken me a day to figure out why I got a personal reply to my posting
> and could not find it on the newsgroup listing. Then it has taken me
> another couple of hours to even find the message on this computer that I
> have been attempting to build but which has not be assisting me in
> becoming, it seems to continually want to do things its way and not
> mine. Anyway, my apologies to the group and to Mirjam - what follows is
> what I meant to send last night. Jane
> .................................................................
Mirjam Bruck Cohen
Wars ? IllnESSES ? poverty .....etc???????????
Wish you were right ,,,,, mirjam