Holbein vs backstitch
Nancy Marino
I am considering a project that uses the Holbein (double running
)stitch for outlining, instead of the more usual backstitch.
Other than the fact that Holbein looks the same on the front or
back (usually not important) what advantage does it have over the
backstitch?
Does the Holbein use less thread (a consideration, for this would be
using silk floss)?
Any ideas would be much appreciated.
Nancy Marino
Steve and Terri
Nancy Marino (mar...@pilot.msu.edu) wrote:
: I am considering a project that uses the Holbein (double running
:
: Other than the fact that Holbein looks the same on the front or
: back (usually not important) what advantage does it have over the
: backstitch?
:
: Does the Holbein use less thread (a consideration, for this would be
: using silk floss)?
Yes, it uses less thread. I prefer double-running stitch to
backstitch when I'm using threads that are less tractable (like
metallics) because it tends to lie on the fabric more neatly, but
that's probably not a consideration with silk thread.
Backstitch is probably better at providing more stability to the stitching
if you need it -- for example, if you're stitching over one thread.
Silk especially slips like the dickens behind the threads of the fabric
weave, and the extra padding behind traditional backstitch seems to
help that (for me, anyway.)
You might try a test swatch of stitching both ways on the fabric you're
going to use and see how it works.
Terri
--
Steve and Terri Carl
ter...@neosoft.com
Marina Salume
: Other than the fact that Holbein looks the same on the front or
: back (usually not important) what advantage does it have over the
: backstitch?
I find that in designs that have long straight lines in them,
mine look straighter when I use backstitch. I use Holbein when
there are shorter lines that change direction a lot.
--marina
Wig & Judy Graves
Nancy Marino wrote:
>
Does the Holbein use less thread (a consideration, for this would be
> using silk floss)?
My guess (somewhat educated) is that backstitch uses twice as much
thread as Holbein! At $3.00 a skein, I'd say that was good incentive!
Judy
KPaules531
In article <32749B...@pilot.msu.edu>, Nancy Marino
<mar...@pilot.msu.edu> writes:
>I am considering a project that uses the Holbein (double running
>)stitch for outlining, instead of the more usual backstitch.
>Other than the fact that Holbein looks the same on the front or
>back (usually not important) what advantage does it have over the
>backstitch?
>Does the Holbein use less thread (a consideration, for this would be
>using silk floss)?
>Any ideas would be much appreciated.
>
>
>Nancy Marino
Hi Nancy!
I use the Holbein stitch if the piece is a reproduction sampler or if the
fabric I'm working on is sheer and the fiber dark. I feel like I'm
staying "truer" to the art is I use the Holbein stitch instead of
backstitching. If my fabric is a loose weave, I'll use it so that I don't
get the "shadows" that tend to appear with the darker colored fibers,
especially on rounded corners. If I'm using Aida (not much any more) or
if I'm using overdyed fibers, I'll use a backstitch. I'm not really
concerned how much fiber is used. I'll just buy more if I have to. I
like doing that!!
"Every road is rough to me that hath no friend to cheer it." Elizabeth
Shane
JoAnn
<jame...@juno.com>
DANCINGNDL
>I am considering a project that uses the Holbein (double running
>)stitch for outlining, instead of the more usual backstitch. Other than
the fact >that Holbein looks the same on the front or back (usually not
important) what >advantage does it have over the backstitch?
>
>Does the Holbein use less thread (a consideration, for this would be
>using silk floss)?
>
Double running is one of my favorite stitches. (In fact, if you ever get
to EGA Headquarters, I have a piece on display in the back hallway, just
on your right as you enter the library that is part of the "My Favorite
Stitches" collection. The piece is executed entirely in double running
patterns on 40 count linen worked over two threads.) I prefer the double
running to the back stitch. I think that it makes a much smoother, neater
line. For this stitch I use a sharp embroidery needle (crewel needle) and
pierce the previous threads. There are other methods for working this
stitch, but, IMHO, this gives one gives the best results. My advice would
be to try all the methods and do the one that gives you the most pleasing
results. This I've never done any thread usage comparisons, but would
imagine that it would be about the same - I guess it all depends on how
you execute the backstitch.
Lori Bell
Danci...@aol.com
Dancing Needle Designs
\
MIDJ
In article <327679...@earthlink.net>, Wig & Judy Graves
<wgr...@earthlink.net> writes:
>My guess (somewhat educated) is that backstitch uses twice as much
>thread as Holbein!
Where's Jim when you need him?
Mary in Gainesville
_ _ _
/ \/ \ @ _| | @
|_|\/|_| |_| |__| _| |
|__|
Mary Winters-Meyer
In <55834q$m...@nadine.teleport.com>, dha...@teleport.com (Susan Hayes) writes:
>In article <555msk$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mi...@aol.com (MIDJ) wrote:
>>In article <327679...@earthlink.net>, Wig & Judy Graves
>><wgr...@earthlink.net> writes:
>>
>>>My guess (somewhat educated) is that backstitch uses twice as much
>>>thread as Holbein!
>>
>>Where's Jim when you need him?
>>
>>Mary in Gainesville
>
>way I can draw this in ascii (I'm not that talented) but if you think about it
>you're going up two stitches, back one, up two, etc. So each stitch is passed
>three times--once on the front, twice on the back (I think I'm picturing this
>right). With the Holbein or running stitch you're only passing twice--once on
>the front and once on the back.
>
>Susan H.
>
Your description is right, but that would mean with running stitch you are
using 2/3 as much floss as back stitch, or conversely, with back stitch you
use 1.5 times as much floss as running stitch.
Mary Winters-Meyer (the one who loves math when it isn't a requirement!)
Handcrafted Crochet and Bead Art
mjwm...@uiuc.edu
Linda Kovacs
|> I am considering a project that uses the Holbein (double running)
|> stitch for outlining, instead of the more usual backstitch. Other than
|> the fact that Holbein looks the same on the front or back (usually not
|> important) what advantage does it have over the backstitch?
|>
|> Does the Holbein use less thread (a consideration, for this would be
|> using silk floss)?
Holbein definitely uses less thread. Consider: With Holbein, you have
a single thickness of thread on the front and on the back, exactly
following your line. You've used thread approximately twice the length
of your line to stitch it (approximate because I didn't take into account
the thread used to go through the fabric). With backstitch, you have a
single thickness on the front and a double thickness on the back. For
straight lines, that's 50% more thread. For going around corners, it's
slightly less, but still more than Holbein.
Which stitch I use depends on whether I want to come back to the place
I started or not. Some patterns work out better with backstitch, some
with double running stitch, some with a combination. And, as others
have said, it also depends on whether the "shadow" of the backstitch
will matter. If so, I use double running.
--
Linda Kovacs (kova...@vnet.ibm.com)
My opinions are my own; if IBM shares them, they haven't told me.
Susan Hayes
lamb
Marina Salume wrote:
>
> : Other than the fact that Holbein looks the same on the front or
> : back (usually not important) what advantage does it have over the
> : backstitch?
>
>
> mine look straighter when I use backstitch. I use Holbein when
> there are shorter lines that change direction a lot.
>
> --marina
>Dear Marina-When I attended "A Sampler Gathering" in April we were taught when we do the Holbein stitch to always make the "return trip"
coming back up on the opposite side of the previously done stitch. In
other words you would do --------- and then on the way back you would
come up first to the right of the previously done stitch and then to the
left of the next previously done stitch. This makes a beautifully
straight line. I had to practice a little before getting it right but
once I did I have been really pleased with the way it turns out. I hope
I have explained myself clearly enough as it is really hard to explain
without a picture. When you try it you will see that the previous stitch
will always fall to either the right or left of the needle when you bring
the needle up....you will have it fall first on direction then on the
other on the return trip. Gee, I wish I could show you!!! Anyway if I
did'nt explain right let me know and I'll try again!!-Happy stitching
Marie K.
Karin Langeveld
Isabel Aidan wrote:
>
> I've been reading the posts about Holbein versus backstitch and I went
> looking in several books about stitches and couldn't find it. What is a
> Holbein stitch and how is used as a subsititue for backstitching?
The Holbein stitch is a running stitch that looks the same on both
sides. You make it in two stages: first you do the ordinary running
stitch, then at the end you turn back and do a 'reverse' running stitch.
The two together look like a continuous row of stitches of the same
lenght.
I couldn't find it as 'Holbein stitch' in my 'Complete Guide to
Embroidery Stitches' (shows you not to believe everything the cover
claims! :^) ), but I believe it's also referred to as a 'double running
stitch'.
It was named after a Dutch painter who did several portraits of people
with embroidered sleeves - the pictures were so detailed that you could
see how the stitch was made!
Basically you use it to decorate clothing, especially wide sleeves, if
you can see both sides of the piece.
*Dissertation mode off* :^)
Karin L.
P.S. I have actually seen a description of doing cross-stitches with
Holbein technique. It looks a bit complicated, but I think I
may try it...
Isabel Aidan
I've been reading the posts about Holbein versus backstitch and I went
looking in several books about stitches and couldn't find it. What is a
Holbein stitch and how is used as a subsititue for backstitching?
Thanks,
Isabel
--
Dissertation? What's that....
Oh........that!!!!!
Lara E. Eakins
In article <327A22...@euronet.nl>, h...@euronet.nl wrote:
> Isabel Aidan wrote:
> >
> > I've been reading the posts about Holbein versus backstitch and I went
> > looking in several books about stitches and couldn't find it. What is a
> > Holbein stitch and how is used as a subsititue for backstitching?
>
> It was named after a Dutch painter who did several portraits of people
> with embroidered sleeves - the pictures were so detailed that you could
> see how the stitch was made!
> Basically you use it to decorate clothing, especially wide sleeves, if
> you can see both sides of the piece.
Holbein's most famous portraits are of the Tudors, especially the one that
he did of Anne of Cleves that Henry VIII saw and decided to marry her
based on the painting. (After Henry actually saw her though, he wasn't
so enchanted!).
I have some of the portraits on my Tudor England page, but I don't have them
labeled with the painter at this time. I've got a good one of Henry with
lots of blackwork on his shirt that I hope to have up by the end of the
weekend. Its at http://porky.as.utexas.edu/lara/tudor/tudor.html
Lara
*********************************************************************
Lara E. Eakins Astronomy Department, University of Texas at Austin
"Astronomy compels the soul to look upwards and leads us from
this world to another" - Plato "The Republic"
http://porky.as.utexas.edu/lara/lara.html
*********************************************************************
Linda Kovacs
Hi, Isabel
In article <01bbc743$bb87dc40$1402010a@astoria>, "Isabel Aidan"
<tza...@hancock.net> writes:
|> I've been reading the posts about Holbein versus backstitch and I went
|> looking in several books about stitches and couldn't find it. What is a
|> Holbein stitch and how is used as a subsititue for backstitching?
Holbein is also called double running stitch.
1 2 3 4 5
Start by doing running stitch in one direction
Up at 1, down at 2, up at 3, down at 4 Result: - -
and the last stitch is at the far end of your line.
Finish going back the other direction
Up at 5, down at 4, up at 3, down at 2 Result: ----
and the last stitch is right next to where you began.
To make an even line, when doing the return trip, always come up
at one side of the stitches from the first trip and go down at the
other side. For instance, after the "Up at 5", go "down at 4" on
the left side of the previous stitch, "up at 3" on the right side,
"down at 2" on the left side. That makes every stitch, in both
directions, become slightly slanted, but they're all the same slant,
so it looks even.
I just finished stitching the tail on a large wild turkey. The
WHOLE THING was to be backstitched, between *almost* every stitch,
to outline the feathers. I used backstitch along the edge, and
double running stitch out from the edge, along each branch, and
back again. It would have been much harder with just backstitching,
as I would have been finishing each (heavily branched) line in the
wrong place to start the next one.
You could tell, with a magnifying glass, whether outlining was
done in backstitch or double running stitch, because the double
running stitch is slightly overlapped and the backstitch is not.
But both look equally good on a finished piece.
DANCINGNDL
>I've been reading the posts about Holbein versus backstitch and I went
>looking in several books about stitches and couldn't find it. What is a
>Holbein stitch and how is used as a subsititue for backstitching?
The Holbein stitch is more properly referred to as double running stitch.
Holbein refers to German painter Hans Holbein the Younger (1497/98 - 1543)
who was a court painter to Henry VIII. His name became associated with
this stitch long after his death because of his detailed inclusion of what
is presumed to be this stitch in his portraits. I say presumed because
without seeing the actual garments, historians cannot say for certain that
it is double running stitch. It is known that the double running stitch
was used at that time - but that doesn't mean that the embroiderer doing
the work used that stitch. It has even been suggested that designs
represented in Holbein's work weren't necessarily those that appeared on
the garments actually belonging to the subject. From sketchs of his work
you can see that the face is done with much detail but the clothes are
very vague. Sometimes jewels and embriodery is noted in detail, but not
filled in. From my very limited understanding of art - I understand that
this was a common practice. It seemed to make sense to me after seeing
many of his sketches.
Double running stitch (which was known and was in use for hundreds of
years before Holbein popularized it's look) is simply a running stitch -
- - - - - worked along a path of a continuous line in one direction -
that is then filled in working in the opposite direction to create a solid
line.
-> - - - - - - - - - - (your first journey - stitching every other
stitch)
- - - - - - - - - < - (your second journey filling in the
skipped stitches)
------------------ resulting line.
When working in this manner you produce the same design on the front and
the back of your work. The double running stitch is often used in, but is
not limited to blackwork embroidery. Because of this many today only
associate the stitch with blackwork, but many 16th/17th European band
samplers contain elaborate bands of double running patterns that were
worked in a variety of colors.
Okay - I'm done - I love history especially when needlework is involved!!!
Kim Salazar
>Isabel Aidan wrote:
>>
>> I've been reading the posts about Holbein versus backstitch and I went
>> looking in several books about stitches and couldn't find it. What is a
>> Holbein stitch and how is used as a subsititue for backstitching?
Isabel,
Holbein stitch is one of many names for double running stich. Other
names for the same thing include Spanish Stitch, and True Stitch (some
debate on this).
Pieces from the 1500s and 1600s exist which look similar on the front
(lines of neat small stitches in a row) but when examined on the back
reveal they were worked in double running stitch, back stitch or even
chain stitch worked with the chain part on the inside of the piece.
The main advantage of double running stitch is that with patience,
planning and an appropriate pattern you can produce works that are
absoultely identical front and back. This feature is also very useful
for working with ground fabrics that might have a tendancy to show
"shadows" of what's on the back through to the front.
Because it takes two passes (there and back again) to complete a line,
double running stitch has a logic all its own. I find this logic a
lot of fun to play with as I try to figure out the most efficient
manner in which to stitch large motifs. Because I like double running
so much I tend to use it a lot, even when two-sidedness isn't of
importance.
Other people are distincly un-fond of double running stitch and find
the feature that I enjoy more of a pain than a pleasure. And still
other people find forming perfectly straight lines of stitches easier
in back than in double running stitch. Which you choose is a matter
of personal preference, practice, and the suitability of the pattern
in hand.
If being the same on back and front isn't an issue for you and you are
more comfortable with back stitch, go ahead and use it. However, I
encourage you to try out double running. You might find it as much
fun as I do.
Kim Salazar
sal...@sprynet.com
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/salazar
Cathy Artigues
mi...@aol.com (MIDJ) wrote:
>In article <327679...@earthlink.net>, Wig & Judy Graves
><wgr...@earthlink.net> writes:
>>My guess (somewhat educated) is that backstitch uses twice as much
>>thread as Holbein!
>Where's Jim when you need him?
Back stitch uses approximately one and one half as much thread as
double running. Double running takes slightly more than twice the
length of the line you stitch and back stitch takes slightly more than
three times the length of the line.
Cathy Artigues
arti...@sisna.com
Linda Kovacs
In article <327C08...@mcc-uky.campus.mci.net>, Kate Fuller
<kwaf...@mcc-uky.campus.mci.net> writes:
|> a pattern for a wild turkey?! Could you please post info on this
|> pattern. My DH loves to go turkey hunting, but so far he's come up
|> empty. This might be as close as we can get to having one ;)
(laughing) rctn is how I got the information several months ago.
Now I get to pass it on! Here it is:
"Field and Streams Vol. IV, Wild Turkeys" by R. W. Brownlee
Published by:
Homestead Designs, Inc.
P.O. Box 18324
Spartanburg, S.C. 29318
(803) 579-4710
800-845-6103 (Orders only)
It's copyrighted 1983, and I had to special-order it through my
favorite shop.
The tom is gorgeous, though his tail isn't spread. The hen is
small and in the background, almost lost in the bushes. I'm working
on enlarging her, as I don't intend to stitch the trees and hills,
so need something else to balance the picture.
Dawn Draheim
>Other people are distincly un-fond of double running stitch and find
>the feature that I enjoy more of a pain than a pleasure. And still
>other people find forming perfectly straight lines of stitches easier
>in back than in double running stitch. Which you choose is a matter
>of personal preference, practice, and the suitability of the pattern
>in hand.
>Kim Salazar
>sal...@sprynet.com
>http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/salazar
Kim, could you share any tips you might have for securely beginning and
ending your floss? And *how* do you get a 'perfectly straight line'
of stitches? With mine, on the return trip they inevitably force the
previous stitches to slant slightly (and I'm just careful to always come
up on the same side of the stitch (like always to the left) and go back
down on the opposite side of the next stitch (the right) so that the line
looks (sort of, but with a *lot* less slant!) like: /////. But it's
still noticeable to me... :( Are you piercing the previous stitches on
your return trip perhaps?
Dawn Draheim
daw...@metronet.com
Kim Salazar
daw...@metronet.com (Dawn Draheim) wrote:
>Kim, could you share any tips you might have for securely beginning and
>ending your floss? And *how* do you get a 'perfectly straight line'
>of stitches? With mine, on the return trip they inevitably force the
>previous stitches to slant slightly (and I'm just careful to always come
>up on the same side of the stitch (like always to the left) and go back
>down on the opposite side of the next stitch (the right) so that the line
>looks (sort of, but with a *lot* less slant!) like: /////. But it's
>still noticeable to me... :( Are you piercing the previous stitches on
>your return trip perhaps?
>
>Dawn Draheim
>daw...@metronet.com
>
Dear Dawn,
I do large projects exclusively in double running stitch - mostly
renditions of patterns found in pre-1600 pattern books or hand-copied
from photos of actual artifacts. Many of these panel style repeats
are huge - with one repeat measuring as many as 200 stitches tall by
almost 400 stitches wide. Because of their size most of my projects
are stitched on high-count grounds. I tend to favor 36-50 thread per
inch linen and usually pre-shrink it before working to make the
threads even more dense.
I find that the slanting your speaking of is more pronounced when the
diameter of my sitching threads is thicker than the diameter of the
threads in my ground cloth - the thicker the stitching threads, the
more slant. I mostly use silk floss or linen thread (for the
larger-stitch stuff). On rare occasion I use cotton floss - mostly I
find the strands of cotton flosses too thick for my purpose.
In whatever material I've chosen I tend to use fewer strands or
thinner threads than cross stitchers do. Also I find that I have to
pause frequently and let my thread "de-twist" or deliberately spin the
needle in my fingers to remove the overtwist imposed by the stitching
process. Any overtwist seems to accentuate the slant effect.
I tend to work on a scroll frame laced at the sides as well as top and
bottom, at a far higher tension than most stitchers use. Q-snaps for
example don't come close in terms of drum-like tightness that is not
lessened by use. For small projects I use a 6" diameter round frame
with the inner hoop well wrapped in twill tape for extra tightness.
Ground cloth under high and uniform tension seems to mitigate the
slant problem.
When I stitch my return pass I'm careful to come up slightly "below"
the beginning of the existing stitch, and re-enter the cloth slightly
"above" the ending of the next one. This does slant the stitches very
slightly, but I find that they relax into a straight line on their
own. Strangely enough, forming stitches by keeping the new ones
either entirely "above" or "below" the previous stitches yields a
permanent double-dash line. These never relax into a straight line.
In forming stitches I stab up and down rather than sew (pick up a
length of fabric on the needle so that the end of the needle being
held and the re-emergent point are visible on the same side of the
cloth). This helps the return row relax because it's not held in place
by having pierced or picked up fibers from the first pass of stitches.
In any case, I make a special effort to avoid piercing previous
stitches on my return trip.
On ends, I'm one of the evil people who ignore modern preferences. If
the piece is to be single sided and mounted with a back that's
permanently hidden, I knot my threads. (Horrors!) I keep my knots
small and always try to come up piercing a previous stitch (an
exception to my rule). My knots, both beginning and ending are
extremely tight and small with any visible "tail" clipped off to
prevent show-through. I've never had a knot pull through to the
front, even after laundering. On single sided work, I tend to follow
double sided stitching logic and never leap over gaps between areas of
the pattern. Instead I always end my thread and restart it.
On double sided work - pieces where both sides show like cuffs and
collars, I always use multiple strands or plies. When I start a new
strand I leave a three to four inch tail hanging loose. When I get to
the end of my thread I make sure that I also have about that much
left. I try to ensure that both the beginning and end of my thread
occur at different points of juncture - spots in the design where
several lines intersect. I unravel the plies and stitch each one
along a different direction following previously completed lines.
When stitching in ends I make sure the new stitches pierce the old
stitches (another exception - usually I do this part with a sewing
sharp as opposed to an embroidery needle). Eventually I clip off the
excess thread about ten or fifteen stitches away from where I started.
I make sure that all of these clips are on the same side of the work.
All my two-sided work is washable and I wash it after I'm done. The
action of the water helps anchor the threads in place. Any that poke
out after the washing I clip again.
If you're interested, the book I wrote has more than a hundred
patterns for double running stitch in it, ranging from simple repeats
that beginners would enjoy, to mega-repeats for truly masochistic
stitchers. There's more about it on my web site (URL below).
Happy stitching!
Williams's
In article <5657kh$h...@juliana.sprynet.com>, sal...@sprynet.com says...
>
>daw...@metronet.com (Dawn Draheim) wrote:
>
>
>>Kim, could you share any tips you might have for securely beginning and
>>ending your floss? And *how* do you get a 'perfectly straight line'
>>of stitches?
>
>I do large projects exclusively in double running stitch - mostly
>renditions of patterns found in pre-1600 pattern books or hand-copied
>from photos of actual artifacts.
Dear Kim,
Thank you so much for the time you spent on this post, so clear, so
helpful to so many. I continue to learn, continue to improve "with a
little help from my friends." Mom always said, "You can't always help, in
return of a favor, the one who helped you. Then you must, to show your
appreciation, pass it on." I will, I promise. Pat