Message for animaux
COL. BILL KILGORE
Dianne Lewandowski
> How about dem Packers, Mrs. G? What a bunch of losers. HA!
Actually, the saddest part, to me, is that people actually put fake
cheese on their heads and then expect to be representative of the State
of Wisconsin.
The second exasperation is that school children are taken to field trips
to Packer's stadium (our tax dollars at work), and the young children swoon.
There are far better things in life to set as examples for children, for
our State, and for our country to worship and idolize. For
Pennsylvania, too.
Dianne
Roberta
wrong. It's not like Green Bay has that much else to offer. The only
reason I go back is to visit the people I grew up with who still live there.
I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning... ;)
Roberta
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote in message
news:bu1tvr$cgvnn$1...@ID-164987.news.uni-berlin.de...
Dianne Lewandowski
> I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
> then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
> influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning... ;)
Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?
Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.
If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.
Dianne
Ellice
> Roberta wrote:
>> I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
>> then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
>> influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning... ;)
>
> Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
It's not different - it's just more visible. What do you think about the
Black Sox scandal - nearly 100 years ago. Or when Roger Maris was about to
break the home run record 40 years ago - people were dedicated and
completely involved in following their teams. As a matter of interesting
sociology, it seems that during times of economic woe, political upheaval -
the following of professional sports takes an upturn. People become more
involved, obsessive. I don't know why, but it's something that has been
noted over the last century - maybe it's the distraction from things which
they feel they can't control.
> don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
> LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
> of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
> wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
> museum or other place of learning?
So, in a place where the football team, a little town owning the team, the
stadium is something they feel is of premiere importance you're the one who
doesn't. Are people painting epithets on your fence, toilet-papering your
yard, throwing stones? Or are they just shaking their heads because they
don't get why you don't care? They probably think you're nuts because the
Packers are the biggest thing in Green Bay and a source of pride. Oh well. I
personally believe that Americans spend way too much money, on entertainment
and those who entertain us - actors and athletes. But, as a society
evidently the majority goes with it. And it's a skill to be a world class
athlete, or a great actor, so we have to deal with that. It's better than
worshipping gun-fighters in the 19th century, or early 20th.
> Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
Sure, but even the ancient Greeks place high value on top athletes, the
Romans on gladiators, and these athletes had followings.
> State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
> Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
> capital of Madison.
So, don't wear a Cheesehead. You're just stuck. I don't think anyone really
thinks that everyone from Wisconsin wears foam cheese on their head. What
about the folks in Milwaukee with Beer Cans instead ;^) ?
> If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
> look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.
Y'know you're entitled to your opinion. But, if this is what people want,
and they're happy - it's their right. What right do you really have to say
that they're wrong? If you don't like the socio-economic-cultural
environment, then I'd say find a place that you will like. Have your spouse
do a job search, and move. There are many cities and towns across the
country that have museums, and little symphonies - find one you like. If
you're looking for higher education levels on the average - then you have to
move either to a University town - where it's disparate - or a metro area
that doesn't have an industrial basis - where the basis is now white collar
work - like Silicon Valley, or the MD/DC/VA area to name 2. Or even in the
city of Pittsburgh - since the steel mills shut, the town has shifted it's
economic base - but they're crazy for their teams in Pgh, and that would bug
you. I don't think you'd like it here - as my guess would be you'd think
people are tooo competitive. Just a hunch.
When I first lived in Pgh, I was really struck by the steel-worker
situation. But then, with some time and observation I came to some odd
thoughts. This was an entire class of hard working folks who were well paid,
and had a culture of the kids staying in that field - not getting more
education, moving out, changing their life - instead it was work hard during
the week, have a big-screen tv, go to Steelers games, and drink beer - that
was what the money was for - not moving to nicer houses, etc. Some were able
to buy out their company, and come back to work for $19/hr anticipating
getting more - while others refused to do that (from about $28-35/hr) and
instead ended up in a world of hurt and job retraining to $8/hr jobs. They
weren't prepared to do anything else, and hadn't wanted most of the kids to
do anything else. I had to think hard about this - because part of me felt
this was a stupid way to live - making $50K a year in the 80s, and living in
bedroom communities of little houses - but you'd see shiny trucks or
Camaros, and all those big-screen tvs thru the windows - and very full
little bars. Finally, for me, I decided what right do I have to say their
choice of life-style is wrong? If people don't want to "better" themselves,
aren't interested in art, or music - and are wanting to just watch their
football team, wear stupid things on their heads, and drink a lot of beer in
their off time - so be it. Maybe they're the smart ones - as they're less
stressed.
I'm sure that there are people who think that spending time doing needlework
is crazier than putting a foam cheese wedge on your head. Just something to
think about.
Ellice
Brenda Lewis
with them to see *why* they thought this was an appropriate field trip?
Perhaps a corporate partner-in-education funded the trip as a reward
for improved test scores or some other academic achievement. They
could also be learning about diversity since a pro football team usually
has a broad cross-section of races/ethnicities and religions. OK, no
great gender diversity...
Personally, I think students should be taken out and taught the ugly
side to sports and entertainment careers. They really need to talk to
the men and women who were so talented they were supposed to set the
world on fire and then they fizzled immediately, had a career-ending
injury, public opinion changed and someone else was hotter, they
couldn't take the stress, drugs, booze, relationships (euphemism here),
etc. Maybe a fallen idol can get through to them that the achievement
of an education is something no one can take away from them. Since
schools are patting students on the back and saying whatever they do is
just fine, someone has to shoot them down with the truth--either about
how great they aren't or how hard it is to make it even if you are good
and you better have a net below you when you fall. Simon Cowell can't
be there for everyone.
Another possible plus would be if such a trip got students more
interested in physical activity (in a healthy, non-steroidal way). This
is also the only way some children will ever get to see such a place
since their parents can't afford to take them or don't consider sports
events something to attend. I'm sure some of them were wide-eyed
because they have never seen the inside of such a big place and can't
imagine that so many people would be there at once. A football game is
a cultural event just as much as a ballet or a rock concert. I bet the
students from well-to-do fan families (who regularly attend games) had a
different perspective.
--
Brenda Lewis Rhianno...@netscape.net
WIP: "Pink Baby" photo frame, Candamar
Cheryl Isaak
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
Interesting, LOCALLY, the schools don't pay for the field trips or for any
speaker brought into the schools. (I arrange both for a local elementary
school, so I am in a position to know first hand.) Field trips and speakers
are either funded by the parents directly, by the PTA/PTO or privately paid
for by a group or individual.
SO - are you absolutely sure that TAX dollars are used? I can't imagine
that a "fun" trip like that wouldn't have been cut.
Cheryl
Caryn
>speaker brought into the schools. (I arrange both for a local elementary
>school, so I am in a position to know first hand.) Field trips and speakers
>are either funded by the parents directly, by the PTA/PTO or privately paid
>for by a group or individual.
>
>SO - are you absolutely sure that TAX dollars are used? I can't imagine
>that a "fun" trip like that wouldn't have been cut.
>
>Cheryl
>
>
>
Lord knows WE pay for our kids various field trips!
Our school district doesn't even use school buses for trips, but charter buses.
And they go to places like Farms with corn mazes in the fall. Not really
educational, but they will also go to things like the Nat'l Archives and the
Kennedy Center.
I know that on a trip to the Nat'l Aquarium in Baltimore, a small side trip to
Camden Yards was part of the agenda. Didn't really bother me, not that I give
a flying hoot about the Orioles.
Caryn
Blue Wizard Designs
http://hometown.aol.com/crzy4xst/index.html
Updated: 7/7/03 -- now available Dragon of the Stars
View WIPs at: http://community.webshots.com/user/carynlws (Caryn's UFO's)
Dianne Lewandowski
>[snip] As a matter of interesting
> sociology, it seems that during times of economic woe, political upheaval -
> the following of professional sports takes an upturn. People become more
> involved, obsessive. I don't know why, but it's something that has been
> noted over the last century - maybe it's the distraction from things which
> they feel they can't control.
I'd like to see some statistics that show this - over the course of
history. Along those lines, the course of history has shown us some
rather nasty adherences to idolatry (men thrown in the lions den while
the crowd cheers; or, public hangings and public beheadings). Just
because a society does it - and it's a majority - doesn't make it
sensible or furthering the culture of a society.
>>don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
>>LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
>>of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
>>wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
>>museum or other place of learning?
>
>
> So, in a place where the football team, a little town owning the team, the
> stadium is something they feel is of premiere importance you're the one who
> doesn't. Are people painting epithets on your fence,
As a matter of fact: yes, people have torn up my gardens, toilet
papered my yard, paint-balled my house.
>They probably think you're nuts because the
> Packers are the biggest thing in Green Bay and a source of pride.
Purchasing baby blankets in packer green with gold helmets, packer
jackets for any age, packer pajamas . . . come on. This isn't
enthusiasm, it's a fetish, and it's not healthy. Pride is one thing. I
used to cheer the Bears, but I didn't have anything in the house (like
kitchen curtains) that had the Bears logo all over it. Nor glasses in
my cupboard.
Until recently, if you went in the local JC Penney store, 2/3's of it
were Packer-related merchandise. That's since changed, thank the gods.
>Oh well. I
> personally believe that Americans spend way too much money, on entertainment
> and those who entertain us - actors and athletes. But, as a society
> evidently the majority goes with it.
But that doesn't make the majority correct in their behavior. In fact,
in my opinion, it says something very negative about us.
>And it's a skill to be a world class
> athlete, or a great actor, so we have to deal with that. It's better than
> worshipping gun-fighters in the 19th century, or early 20th.
I don't know of anyone who worshipped gunfighters. Some people did get
some glee out of the Bonnie & Clyde escapades, but that had to do with
the Depression and what many considered unfair banking at that time.
> Sure, but even the ancient Greeks place high value on top athletes, the
> Romans on gladiators, and these athletes had followings.
As I said: there's a difference between a fan and a fetish.
I stated: >>State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In
fact, Wisconsin
>>Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
>>capital of Madison.
>
To which Ellice replied: So, don't wear a Cheesehead. You're just stuck.
Stuck on what? Sanity? Obviously, from my above paragraph, there's
plenty more that think the moniker of "cheesehead" does nothing to
promote the value of the State.
> don't think anyone really
> thinks that everyone from Wisconsin wears foam cheese on their head. What
> about the folks in Milwaukee with Beer Cans instead ;^) ?
You might be surprised. Then again, of course not. But that is a
phrase that has become our State's moniker: Cheesehead. That doesn't
exactly promote us positively.
> Y'know you're entitled to your opinion. But, if this is what people want,
> and they're happy - it's their right. What right do you really have to say
> that they're wrong? >If you don't like the socio-economic-cultural
> environment, then I'd say find a place that you will like. Have your spouse
> do a job search, and move.
This is the same hue and cry, worded slightly differently: "If you
don't like America, leave." Surely you can come up with a better
argument. Have you looked at the labor market lately? The
socio-economic status of the U.S. as a whole?
Some people like to stand up and say, "This isn't helping, it's
hurting." Others don't have to listen, but that doesn't make the
statement "wrong".
Dianne
Dianne Lewandowski
My tax dollars may not be funding them. However, that tells you a
lot, too. :-) It's rather scarey. They've been making these field
trips for years.
Dianne
Cheryl Isaak
It which case, you have no say in the matter; it's not your direct concern.
Do you know what other trips they make? To a show, a museum, historic site.
I've been wondering if a trip to see the inside workings of the local
"Arena" would be of interest. There's more there than a chunk of ice and
seats. You never know what might spark with a child.
ME - I'm still wondering why we want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to
the elementary school on grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who
will have very little to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for
money for extra supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as
necessary as the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music
teacher.
Cheryl
On 1/14/04 2:27 PM, in article bu45bq$dk9ap$1...@ID-164987.news.uni-berlin.de,
Roberta
friends and my family's friends are all football fans, but not obsessed.
Roberta
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote in message
news:bu3h2d$d7lnu$1...@ID-164987.news.uni-berlin.de...
Dianne Lewandowski
> Dianne, It which case, you have no say in the matter; it's not your
direct concern. Do you know what other trips they make? To a show, a
museum, historic site.<<
Yes, as a member of society I DO have a direct concern for the education
of children in my community. Since I teach piano, I do get a fair idea
of what other trips these children make. Very few. They have "lock
downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
purpose that serves. Occasionally they make trips to a museum.
It's just that I grew up in a very poor town, with a school that half
the time wasn't accredited with the State, and every year elementary
school children, in each grade, took some sort of field trip: Ford
Museum, Greenfield Village, Cranbrook art Museum, Detroit Museum of Art,
the Detroit zoo, a large bakery (early grades). These all expanded our
vision of the world. Visiting a football field (or baseball field or
ice arena) does nothing. NOW, that being said, if a high school
athletic department wants to make a field trip to show older teens how
professional athletes compete, what plays they make, how they skate,
etc. etc., that doesn't bother me.
Children, especially children who come from poor, less-culturally
advanced areas, need to see museums, symphonies (I think one of the high
school clubs DOES go to see a symphony or theatre), etc. etc. If you
don't live in poor rural or ghetto areas, then you may not understand
what I'm trying to say.
I agree about your last statement: "ME - I'm still wondering why we
want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to the elementary school on
grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who will have very little
to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for money for extra
supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as necessary as
the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music teacher."
But I want to know how we got in this predicatment that teachers and
parent organizations have to pay for supplies. something is VERY wrong
here. And if I understand you correctly: Then in our corner of the
world, I'd rather see chalk and paper than a trip to Lambeau Field.
Dianne
KDLark
>downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
>purpose that serves.
We have "read ins" at elementary schools where the kids bring pillows and their
stuffed toys and get to lounge on the floor reading and being read to. Maybe
this is what the "lock downs" are?
Katrina L.
Jenn Liace
<dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
>I agree about your last statement: "ME - I'm still wondering why we
>want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to the elementary school on
>grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who will have very little
>to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for money for extra
>supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as necessary as
>the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music teacher."
>
>But I want to know how we got in this predicatment that teachers and
>parent organizations have to pay for supplies. something is VERY wrong
>here. And if I understand you correctly: Then in our corner of the
>world, I'd rather see chalk and paper than a trip to Lambeau Field.
I took Cheryl's comment about the artist in residence as being posted
tongue-in-cheek, espcially with the part about the paper and chalk
tossed in. You're right, if the parents are paying for basic supplies
so that the school can pay for a trip to Lambeau, I'd pass on the
trip. But I owuldn't be surprised to find out that there's a
corporation paying for that trip - maybe even the Packers themselves.
Jenn L.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jaliace
http://sewu9corn.blogspot.com
Current projects:
Simply Sensational January Calendar (Mill Hill)
Lady of the Flag (Mirabilia)
Jenn Liace
<dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
>They have "lock
>downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
>purpose that serves.
One of our prior schools had this. It's essentially an overnight
social. No purpose other than to have fun with their friends (and
possibly to give some parents who aren't chaperoning for whatever
reason a night without one of their rugrats underfoot.) My daughter
didn't go that year, though, she was only in first grade and I didn't
think she was ready for it yet.
Dianne Lewandowski
"pajama parties". something "fun".
Dianne
Cheryl Isaak
On 1/14/04 7:03 PM, in article bu4lhc$dq61m$1...@ID-164987.news.uni-berlin.de,
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
> Cheryl Isaak wrote:
>> Dianne, It which case, you have no say in the matter; it's not your
> direct concern. Do you know what other trips they make? To a show, a
> museum, historic site.<<
>
> Yes, as a member of society I DO have a direct concern for the education
> of children in my community.
I don't happen to agree with you, I don't get into the "it takes a village"
thing which takes away parental responsibility and gives it to group that
has agendas that I don't agree with. BUT since you are so concerned run for
school board, join the PTA or other wise get involved! Don't just complain,
do something. Offer free piano lessons at the school or give a concert. I
don't know of literacy program that has enough help.
> Since I teach piano, I do get a fair idea
> of what other trips these children make. Very few. They have "lock
> downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
> purpose that serves. Occasionally they make trips to a museum.
What exits with in a reasonable distance? Remember, school starts at A. The
soonest the buses can leave is 10 minutes later. Then the drive down and
factor in lunch time and the drive back. And time to return to classrooms
and getting back on the bus to go home at B. And a fudge factor for
traffic... How much of the day is left to see anything?
Now, a bus for a day here is $300, holds 55 elementary school students or 40
middle and high school students and the chaperones. Average grade size is
160 at the elementary level, 450 at the older levels. So, a minimum of $900
for transportation alone.
And entrance fees, at $2.00 to $10 per student..... Adds up quick doesn't
it.
Field trips are an expensive proposition. I work on a committee that brings
in speakers that complement the curriculum, meteorologist, wildlife, Native
American, colonial history, the fire department, local dentists,
Egyptologists, dinosaurs. On average, the cost is $500 per speaker. Some
are much higher, some are free. On the whole, much more cost effective and
no one misses out, which can and does happen.
>
> It's just that I grew up in a very poor town, with a school that half
> the time wasn't accredited with the State, and every year elementary
> school children, in each grade, took some sort of field trip: Ford
> Museum, Greenfield Village, Cranbrook art Museum, Detroit Museum of Art,
> the Detroit zoo, a large bakery (early grades). These all expanded our
> vision of the world.
So did I on all accounts. But why the Wonder Bread factory instead of the
local bakery.'Cause WB was paying for some of it.
But re-read the above listing of costs to take a "class" to anyplace. And
what was the total cost to the parents for these trips - tax dollars didn't
pay all of it. Parents had to chip in 30 years ago when I was at that age.
Donšt ask what I've paid for DS's school excursions so far this year - it is
over $300 already.
> Visiting a football field (or baseball field or
> ice arena) does nothing. NOW, that being said, if a high school
> athletic department wants to make a field trip to show older teens how
> professional athletes compete, what plays they make, how they skate,
> etc. etc., that doesn't bother me.
Ok - since you aren't "sports minded" how about the food services, the power
plant, all the behind the scenes management. I recently got a chance to
step behind the scenes locally and was impressed at the breadth of skills
needed to keep it running smoothly. How to make the ice is a good intro to
practical applications of science. How to balance the schedule the ice
hockey team one night and hosting a concert the next with the very different
needs of the athletes and the performers. Or how about security issues.
Managing the "pro shop" - a wide range of professions and jobs are
represented in that one trip behind the scenes.
>
> Children, especially children who come from poor, less-culturally
> advanced areas, need to see museums, symphonies (I think one of the high
> school clubs DOES go to see a symphony or theatre), etc. etc. If you
> don't live in poor rural or ghetto areas, then you may not understand
> what I'm trying to say.
>
BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library. I
never heard an opera until high school (and still don't understand the
attraction) and the only plays I've been to were strictly drama club
affairs. But I'd read plays from Aristophanes to Eugene Iounesco and read a
fair number of librettos. And the only museums I went to as a child were of
the road side attraction variety or the science museum. The average parent
probably still doesn't want the little darlings around the nudes at the
Museum of Fine Arts and the average teen will be to busy chortling to learn
anything. (BTW those are the sentiments voiced by local, college educated
parents.) Frankly - I don't think the most "culture" things are grasped by
students under the age of 15 or 16, they aren't ready yet beyond the
simplest of ballets or classical music. Some maturity is required to look at
or understand a nude beyond the titillation factor and the same goes for Van
Gogh. You can look and see the "pretty" but that's all. If you just want to
expose the kids - a slide or book plate is plenty.
> I agree about your last statement: "ME - I'm still wondering why we
> want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to the elementary school on
> grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who will have very little
> to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for money for extra
> supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as necessary as
> the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music teacher."
I happen to think it a waste of time and money - if there is no interaction
with the STUDENTS, why are we doing it? The intended result could be done
much more cost effectively by hiring a landscape designer locally.
>
> But I want to know how we got in this predicatment that teachers and
> parent organizations have to pay for supplies. something is VERY wrong
> here.
Easy - "people" want computers and the fancy building and big marching bands
and the winning sports teams - the status symbols. And the teachers union
wants it agenda. And the layers of administration all get their cut of the
action. So I can understand how the paper and chalk get cut out of the
budget.
>And if I understand you correctly: Then in our corner of the
> world, I'd rather see chalk and paper than a trip to Lambeau Field.
But if a trip to Lambeau Field sparks something else - an interest in
grounds keeping even, then it serves multiple functions. Think outside the
box.
Cheryl
Karen C - California
<chery...@adelphia.net> writes:
>BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library. I
>never heard an opera until high school
Turn on the radio. Every Saturday, there's the Texaco Metropolitan Opera
broadcast, which is free.
PBS broadcasts at least one opera per year, as well as "good music" concerts.
Again -- free. You don't need cable to watch PBS.
Bundled in with the $12 basic cable service (local stations only) are a couple
of "local access/community/educational" stations. They broadcast student
concerts, school plays, intro to art, some telecourses from the local colleges,
educational material not produced locally (e.g., a series poking around
Historic Williamsburg), and, late at night, Classic Arts Showcase (classical
music videos, bits of classic films, parts of plays, photos of
paintings/sculptures with accompanying music).
Where I grew up, there were concerts in the parks most summer nights. You
could bring your own cold drinks and food. One night might be a barbershop
quartet, the next night a performance by a teen summer drama program, a dress
rehearsal from a nearby professional opera or orchestra, ethnic celebrations,
etc. We got a wide range of culture for a couple cents gasoline. From having
performed repeatedly at one of these programs, I can tell you that the
performers did not get paid: the only cost to the county was a little
electricity for the stage lights. If there was a Xeroxed program, ads were
sold to sponsors. So don't let your community tell you they "can't afford"
this sort of program. What they really mean is that they can't be bothered to
make the arrangements.
--
Finished 12/14/03 -- Mermaid (Dimensions)
WIP: Angel of Autumn, Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, Guide the Hands (2d
one)
Paralegal - Writer - Editor - Researcher
http://hometown.aol.com/kmc528/KMC.html
Cheryl Isaak
"Karen C - California" <kmc...@aol.com.LuvXS> wrote:
> In article <BC2C4246.2B018%chery...@adelphia.net>, Cheryl Isaak
> <chery...@adelphia.net> writes:
>
>> BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library. I
>> never heard an opera until high school
>
> Turn on the radio. Every Saturday, there's the Texaco Metropolitan Opera
> broadcast, which is free.
You're lucky - Saturdays here are talk shows or the folk/Celtic programs.
There is a classical station, but I'd swear it only plays the same few
things over and over.
>
> PBS broadcasts at least one opera per year, as well as "good music" concerts.
> Again -- free. You don't need cable to watch PBS.
Here you do - no reception with out the huge antennae.
>
> Bundled in with the $12 basic cable service (local stations only) are a couple
> of "local access/community/educational" stations. They broadcast student
> concerts, school plays, intro to art, some telecourses from the local
> colleges,
> educational material not produced locally (e.g., a series poking around
> Historic Williamsburg), and, late at night, Classic Arts Showcase (classical
> music videos, bits of classic films, parts of plays, photos of
> paintings/sculptures with accompanying music).
Lucky - I didn't mind dropping cable, nothing like that on the local access.
But there was the Wicca group that were the subject of letters to the editor
at the local papers. (those were pretty funny!)
>
> Where I grew up, there were concerts in the parks most summer nights. You
> could bring your own cold drinks and food. One night might be a barbershop
> quartet, the next night a performance by a teen summer drama program, a dress
> rehearsal from a nearby professional opera or orchestra, ethnic celebrations,
> etc. We got a wide range of culture for a couple cents gasoline. From having
> performed repeatedly at one of these programs, I can tell you that the
> performers did not get paid: the only cost to the county was a little
> electricity for the stage lights. If there was a Xeroxed program, ads were
> sold to sponsors. So don't let your community tell you they "can't afford"
> this sort of program. What they really mean is that they can't be bothered to
> make the arrangements.
>
Amen to that. Last Olde Home Days (town pride type thing) we got the local
head bangers/heavy metal bands. Ouch! But the next town over does get some
decent stuff - choral groups, barbershop etc...
But I will continue to skip the opera - those poor singers can sound like
they are in such pain. LOL
Cheryl
Dianne Lewandowski
> So don't let your community tell you they "can't afford"
> this sort of program. What they really mean is that they can't be bothered to
> make the arrangements.
I agree.
Dianne
Tia Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply
>From: Cheryl Isaak
>.... But I will continue to skip the opera - those poor singers can sound like
>they are in such pain. LOL
I am not "into" what I call heavy opera -- Wagner and such. I DO like light
opera -- Gilbert & Sullivan for instance and just about any type of choral
(sp?) programmes. I'm not sure if my dislike of "heavy opera" is because I
don't understand it (language barriers and all that) or just because it sounds
so melodramatic. then again, I have never attended any "heavy opera"
performances and that might have something to do with it. I should imagine if
you can *see* what is going on during the performanc, it would make it more
easily understood and hence be more enjoyable.
Of course, ANY Bugs Bunny or Daffy performance that includes "heavy opera"
IS imminently enjoyable and quite acceptable to my way of thinking :-)))!
CiaoMeow >^;;^<
.
PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< Queen of Kitties
Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their
WHISKERS!!
Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs!
Dianne Lewandowski
To my comment:Yes, as a member of society I DO have a direct concern for
>>of children in my community.
Cheryl opined:
> I don't happen to agree with you, I don't get into the "it takes a village"
> thing which takes away parental responsibility and gives it to group that
> has agendas that I don't agree with. BUT since you are so concerned run for
> school board, join the PTA or other wise get involved! Don't just complain,
> do something. Offer free piano lessons at the school or give a concert. I
> don't know of literacy program that has enough help.
Re: the "village" approach: And you think parents with children IN
school don't have agendas that are self-serving? To answer your last
statement: If you lived here, and lived in my shoes, you'd understand
why that's not possible. I have never been a person to just "complain".
I have ALWAYS been very active - including school boards and a major
landscape restructuring for an entire town. Loads of volunteer time.
Until we came here.
> What exits with in a reasonable distance? Remember, school starts at A. The
> soonest the buses can leave is 10 minutes later. Then the drive down and
> factor in lunch time and the drive back. And time to return to classrooms
> and getting back on the bus to go home at B. And a fudge factor for
> traffic... How much of the day is left to see anything?
Taking children out of the classroom to visit Lambeau Field isn't a
field trip of any educational importance. So, if the district is so
poor they can't afford something of cultural or educational merit, they
should sit in a classroom and listen to a concert, opera, read books on
art . . . whatever.
> Ok - since you aren't "sports minded" how about the food services, the power
> plant, all the behind the scenes management.
Now THAT impresses me and I feel is an important engagement for
students. If a district can't afford a trip to a museum, then this is
the next best thing. You'll get no argument from me.
Then I said: >>Children, especially children who come from poor,
less-culturally
>>advanced areas, need to see museums, symphonies (I think one of the high
>>school clubs DOES go to see a symphony or theatre), etc. etc. If you
>>don't live in poor rural or ghetto areas, then you may not understand
>>what I'm trying to say.
To which Cheryl retorted:
> BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library.
You're dreaming. You don't get it. Nor do you understand what I'm
trying to say.
> But if a trip to Lambeau Field sparks something else - an interest in
> grounds keeping even, then it serves multiple functions. Think outside the
> box.
Oh, an opera or master painting won't inspire anyone, but a trip to
Lambeau Field might inspire grounds keeping? I don't mind outside of
the box thinking, but rationalization for an agenda that doesn't include
real culture???
Dianne
Cheryl Isaak
"Tia Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply" <catwo...@aol.comnekoluvr> wrote:
>> Re: Message for animaux
>> From: Cheryl Isaak
>
>> .... But I will continue to skip the opera - those poor singers can sound
>> like
>> they are in such pain. LOL
>
> I am not "into" what I call heavy opera -- Wagner and such. I DO like light
> opera -- Gilbert & Sullivan for instance and just about any type of choral
> (sp?) programmes.
Now operettas are ok - sort of very musical musical! LOL
>I'm not sure if my dislike of "heavy opera" is because I
> don't understand it (language barriers and all that) or just because it sounds
> so melodramatic. then again, I have never attended any "heavy opera"
> performances and that might have something to do with it. I should imagine if
> you can *see* what is going on during the performanc, it would make it more
> easily understood and hence be more enjoyable.
That might be a point, I have a very poor ear for languages.
> Of course, ANY Bugs Bunny or Daffy performance that includes "heavy opera"
> IS imminently enjoyable and quite acceptable to my way of thinking :-)))!
> CiaoMeow >^;;^<
> .
That's Opera Doc!
Cheryl
Karen C - California
<chery...@adelphia.net> writes:
>> Turn on the radio. Every Saturday, there's the Texaco Metropolitan Opera
>> broadcast, which is free.
>You're lucky - Saturdays here are talk shows or the folk/Celtic programs.
>There is a classical station, but I'd swear it only plays the same few
>things over and over.
KXPR webcasts (www.csus.edu/npr), as does WMUH
(http://www.muhlenberg.edu/wmuh/), both of which run the TexMet. The MetOp
website has a list of stations and times, so just surf around till you find one
with a webcast.
Forgot to mention "your local college" as a convenient source of inexpensive
culture. City College does plays every semester, CRC is actually the home to a
drama competition. Most colleges have orchestras, choirs, etc. Some have art
galleries.
Call the college(s) and get on the Music Dept, Art Dept, Drama Dept and Chapel
mailing lists, and you'll have culture out the yin-yang, most of it free or
just a few bucks. "In season", when the senior music majors had to put on a
recital, we had several performances a week. I can't play for diddly, but I
can read music, so I was on the Music Dept list as a page-turner for the
keyboard recitals, and did quite a few. Will work for coffee-and-cake :)
Establish ties with the various departments and you can get cheap bus trips out
of the immediate area. Once all the French students had had the opportunity to
sign up for the trip to NYC for a French opera, the rest of the seats on the
bus were put up for "the college community at large", meaning not only
professors, but their friends/relatives/neighbors..... We also had a weekly
lecture series -- sometimes our professors, sometimes guest lecturers of note,
always educational, and always free.
My local ethnic society puts on a number of cultural events every year. Once a
month, there's a lecture. In two weeks is a concert by the chorus, and another
in February. March has Springfest. Costs me $15 a year to be a member and get
the newsletter/calendar, but most events are free. If it's not *your* ethnic
group, it's usually no problem to find someone who can enlighten you to the
gist of the songs, why there's a filthy chimney sweep wandering around (good
luck), what IS this stuff on my plate?! We loooooooooove teaching kids about
our culture and history.
Network -- someone in your social circle knows someone whose brother plays in
the Backstreet Bagpipers, or whose preacher's in-laws run the youth orchestra.
A good friend of mine is in the Jazz Society; you tell me what variety of music
you want to hear, and after next Sunday's meeting, he'll have phone numbers for
you for classical, brass, you name it -- musicians flock together, and the jazz
band fiddler may be married to the conductor of Tuba Christmas, or to the lady
who teaches Irish step dancing.
http://www.spebsqsa.org/ will connect you to a barbershop chorus near you --
again, even if BSQ is not your idea of music, some of their singers will know
about Sing-it-Yourself Messiah or madrigals, because they do both. Once you
put the word out that you're looking for free concerts, you'll hear about more
than you have time for, but it's not something most of us will tell you upfront
"Hi, I'm Karen, and if you want to hear Canterbury Tales, my library is
reciting it next Saturday".
Jan Lennie
mix through all the 'youth culture' music to light or heavy classical ,
opera and jazz. During the day we have for the children poets , magicians,
street entertainers and story tellers. this is all during the (too long!!!)
summer holidays.
In our arboretum they have seasonal shows (winter wonderland , autumn
colours , spring wake up time and summer burst)
Our museums all have programmes to involve children in history - making
their own coins , Chinese lanterns , we have a dragon boat race,lots of
nature trail's. Bat search nights , children's archaeology groups. Library's
have weekly story time for toddlers with colouring and nursery rhymes. In
winter we have nighty night time where everybody wears pj's or nighties and
takes a teddy bear or 'cuddly' and story's are told with hot chocolate and
biscuits (cookies) given out . Halloween we dress up and go for stories by
candlelight.
All these things are either free ( and subsidised by local firms) or cost a
small nominal fee. The onus being on the parents to get the children or
themselves involved . I live in a small village with very little public
transport and a big population of one parent family's ( we are annexed to a
large RAF base with lots of father's and in the past few years mothers away
for varying times) and the activities are always well supported .
Jan
"Cheryl Isaak" <chery...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:BC2C6619.2B06B%chery...@adelphia.net...
Cheryl Isaak
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
Dianne
Once again we are on different sides of the highway.
> Cheryl Isaak wrote:
> To my comment:Yes, as a member of society I DO have a direct concern for
> the education
>>> of children in my community.
>
> Cheryl opined:
>> I don't happen to agree with you, I don't get into the "it takes a village"
>> thing which takes away parental responsibility and gives it to group that
>> has agendas that I don't agree with. BUT since you are so concerned run for
>> school board, join the PTA or other wise get involved! Don't just complain,
>> do something. Offer free piano lessons at the school or give a concert. I
>> don't know of literacy program that has enough help.
>
> Re: the "village" approach: And you think parents with children IN
> school don't have agendas that are self-serving?
Yes, but I can say NO, I don't want my child to attend that program or can
pull him/her out of class if the discussion is something I don't agree with.
The role of public education is to provide the basics - reading, writing,
math, civics, history, science. Not to promote Scientology, Creationism or
fringe topics. And certainly not moral values. It is my responsibility to
educate my children on religious and moral issues - I don't want some one
else to do that or taking away my right to do so. And certain issues don't
belong in school.
>To answer your last
> statement: If you lived here, and lived in my shoes, you'd understand
> why that's not possible.
Anything is possible. If it is an issue you are concerned enough about to
take action.
> I have never been a person to just "complain".
> I have ALWAYS been very active - including school boards and a major
> landscape restructuring for an entire town. Loads of volunteer time.
> Until we came here.
So get involved again!
>
>> What exits with in a reasonable distance? Remember, school starts at A. The
>> soonest the buses can leave is 10 minutes later. Then the drive down and
>> factor in lunch time and the drive back. And time to return to classrooms
>> and getting back on the bus to go home at B. And a fudge factor for
>> traffic... How much of the day is left to see anything?
>
> Taking children out of the classroom to visit Lambeau Field isn't a
> field trip of any educational importance. So, if the district is so
> poor they can't afford something of cultural or educational merit, they
> should sit in a classroom and listen to a concert, opera, read books on
> art . . . whatever.
>
>> Ok - since you aren't "sports minded" how about the food services, the power
>> plant, all the behind the scenes management.
>
> Now THAT impresses me and I feel is an important engagement for
> students. If a district can't afford a trip to a museum, then this is
> the next best thing. You'll get no argument from me.
I'd bet they see the same kind of things at Lambeau Field - doesn't it also
hold concerts, have a grounds crew that has to maintain the surface, a power
plant.... I'd bet they just don't kiss the hallowed ground.
>
> Then I said: >>Children, especially children who come from poor,
> less-culturally
>>> advanced areas, need to see museums, symphonies (I think one of the high
>>> school clubs DOES go to see a symphony or theatre), etc. etc. If you
>>> don't live in poor rural or ghetto areas, then you may not understand
>>> what I'm trying to say.
>
> To which Cheryl retorted:
>> BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library.
>
> You're dreaming. You don't get it. Nor do you understand what I'm
> trying to say.
No - read what I said further down - I don't think operas, plays or art
museums are appropriate for trips for students under the age of 15 or 16.
Some emotional maturity is needed. There is a better way to do it for the
younger students.
And what are the art and music teachers covering? Even my little back woods
town teacher showed slides covering art history. Music was more than just
singing - beat, reading music....
>
>> But if a trip to Lambeau Field sparks something else - an interest in
>> grounds keeping even, then it serves multiple functions. Think outside the
>> box.
>
> Oh, an opera or master painting won't inspire anyone, but a trip to
> Lambeau Field might inspire grounds keeping? I don't mind outside of
> the box thinking, but rationalization for an agenda that doesn't include
> real culture???
>
No, I said, a child won't see past the pretty picture, the nude lady or the
strange language. And a slide show from a visiting lecturer is more likely
do some good than trip to a museum. After all, you are looking for
appreciation not confusion and distaste.
And the trip to Lambeau Field might spark an interest in engineering or
business. Also worthy things.
And sport is part of the broad spectrum of culture; you just consider it
beneath you. I abhor opera, I'd rather listen to some of today's pop music
(the acoustic stuff, no guitar rock for me). I don't like Jason Pollock, do
like some of the Impressionists in a vague way, just generally prefer works
from the Italian Renaissance. I'd rather go to a hockey game than a
classical concert; I don't feel like having a liberal snob look down their
nose at my lack of diamonds and designer labels or worse, my political
beliefs. If I want to listen to classical, I'll pull out my CDs.
Dear Dianne, lets just agree to disagree on this. I don't know all the ins
and outs of your town any more than you do mine. I suspect they are more
alike than you'd ever want to admit. I want what is right and proper for my
children and for all children, an education of the absolute basics, reading,
writing, math, history, civics, science and general art and music. The
parents have responsibilities here too. And interesting educational
opportunities can take the strangest forms.
Cheryl
Cheryl
Cheryl Isaak
The local colleges tend to be "technical" or "teacher" colleges. But I'll
see what's around. As long its practical and appropriate. I wish there was
the Capitol Center for the Arts was still affordable; at $8 a student it
isn't.
Cheryl
Dianne Lewandowski
>
> Yes, but I can say NO, I don't want my child to attend that program or can
> pull him/her out of class if the discussion is something I don't agree with.
> The role of public education is to provide the basics - reading, writing,
> math, civics, history, science. Not to promote Scientology, Creationism or
> fringe topics. And certainly not moral values. It is my responsibility to
> educate my children on religious and moral issues - I don't want some one
> else to do that or taking away my right to do so. And certain issues don't
> belong in school.
And you think visits to a football field are a necessary part of
education? Where did the conversation on morals and religion enter my
discussion? I certainly never brought it up.
I agree with you in your above statements. But culture shouldn't be
absent from school . . . it is a part of our "humanities". I'm not an
opera fan. I've tried. But I have enjoyed immensely some "lighter"
operas, and many *heavy* arias. If you don't open up a child's ear, you
lose him forever. These are things that a child has to be surrounded
with from birth. You don't wake up at 16 and decide you like Picasso.
> So get involved again!
You are irritating the heck out of me. I TRIED to get involved. For
eight years we BOTH tried valiently. It almost killed us emotionally.
This is a small, backward town. We are outsiders. And I think if I
hear one more time: "then move" I may just lose it.
What you have to do is stop thinking about YOUR situation and understand
that not everywhere in the U.S. is the same. I read your entire post.
I've answered it above. I disagree with you. Your circumstances are
different than mine.
While we're at it: If you don't think it takes a village, and if you
don't think I should have any input, then maybe you don't want my tax
dollars, either.
> No, I said, a child won't see past the pretty picture, the nude lady or the
> strange language. And a slide show from a visiting lecturer is more likely
> do some good than trip to a museum. After all, you are looking for
> appreciation not confusion and distaste.
You have a very narrow view, I'm afraid.
> And sport is part of the broad spectrum of culture; you just consider it
> beneath you.
No, I don't. But you, obviously, think it should be right up there at
the top of the list. I think ALL these things are a part of being human
and one does not deserve more attention than another. THAT'S my point.
The only diamond I have is my mother's and grandmother's put into one
ring. I don't wear designer anything because I refuse to advertise for
them. Who in their right mind wants "Gucci" printed all over their
evening wear?
Liberal? No. Centrist, Yes. Basic education? Absolutely. Including
the basics of art, literature, music. A modicum of sports presented in
a healthy, team-spirited intent.
Dianne
Karen C - California
catwo...@aol.comnekoluvr (Tia Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply ) writes:
> Of course, ANY Bugs Bunny or Daffy performance that includes "heavy opera"
>IS imminently enjoyable and quite acceptable to my way of thinking :-)))!
Getcher butt out here! At this time of year, with all the rain and dark days,
Looney Tunes Musical Masterpieces is a frequent visitor to the VCR!
Weeeeeetuwwwwn my wuvvvvv!
For a fun experience with heavy opera, get The Anna Russell Album. She hits
the highlights of The Ring Cycle in 18 minutes, concluding <high pitched, nasal
voice, British accent> "And here you ahhhh, twennnnty-threee
aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhrrrs later, RIGHT BACK WHERE WE STARTED!!!!" Thereupon, you
play your serious Ring Cycle CD, and ROFLMAOWTIMEWPIMP because you can't hear
the music without thinking of how she skewered it!
(I'll have to have Mom try to track down MY version of the Ring, including a
bunch of mermaids singing "My beer is Rheingold, the dry beer" and one of the
lovesick wailing "Since my baby left me, I found a new place to dwell, it's
down the end of Lonely Street, the Heartbreak Hotel", while the guy fashioning
the magic ring sings "Take a ring, and add another ring, and add another ring,
and now you've got three rings, Ballantyne!". Hey -- it's a German opera, and
what's more German than beer?)
Oh, Bwunnhiwwwde, you're so wuvwy!
Yes, I know it, I cahn't help it!
Karen C - California
<chery...@adelphia.net> writes:
>"teacher" colleges
Art teachers
Music teachers
Drama teachers
:)
I know my friends who were majoring in Education had to put together various
entertaining programs -- I spent an afternoon helping move a rocket through a
galaxy of snack-size Milky Way bars for a stop-action animation film (and once
we were sure the film came out, the helpers got to eat the props!VBG) We
taught "through", "over", "under", "in front", "behind".
So, even the teacher college may have something of interest, if you can get
invited to the sessions where these audio-visual aids are demonstrated.
Cheryl Isaak
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
> Cheryl Isaak wrote:
>>
>> Yes, but I can say NO, I don't want my child to attend that program or can
>> pull him/her out of class if the discussion is something I don't agree with.
>> The role of public education is to provide the basics - reading, writing,
>> math, civics, history, science. Not to promote Scientology, Creationism or
>> fringe topics. And certainly not moral values. It is my responsibility to
>> educate my children on religious and moral issues - I don't want some one
>> else to do that or taking away my right to do so. And certain issues don't
>> belong in school.
>
> And you think visits to a football field are a necessary part of
> education?
Have you ever checked to see what goes on at this trip? What do they do? Go
kiss the ground and leave again? I can't imagine the teachers would put up
with it.
> Where did the conversation on morals and religion enter my
> discussion? I certainly never brought it up.
Sorry that part was uncalled for on my part, but, so is insisting only high
brow culture to be taught.
>
> I agree with you in your above statements. But culture shouldn't be
> absent from school . . . it is a part of our "humanities". I'm not an
> opera fan. I've tried. But I have enjoyed immensely some "lighter"
> operas, and many *heavy* arias. If you don't open up a child's ear, you
> lose him forever. These are things that a child has to be surrounded
> with from birth. You don't wake up at 16 and decide you like Picasso.
>
>> So get involved again!
>
> You are irritating the heck out of me. I TRIED to get involved. For
> eight years we BOTH tried valiently. It almost killed us emotionally.
> This is a small, backward town. We are outsiders. And I think if I
> hear one more time: "then move" I may just lose it.
Then you tried - now forget about it. Find another way you can make a
difference. Remember, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it
drink. Or to put it another way, the village can say no, we don't have need
of your skill.
>
> What you have to do is stop thinking about YOUR situation and understand
> that not everywhere in the U.S. is the same. I read your entire post.
> I've answered it above. I disagree with you. Your circumstances are
> different than mine.
And I think there is more in common than you are willing to see. We're using
tax dollars for the internet at the kindergarten level, not to buy basic
supplies. Your town uses those dollars for something else. We have kids that
aren't learning to read, just like you. We have a drug problem too.
>
> While we're at it: If you don't think it takes a village, and if you
> don't think I should have any input, then maybe you don't want my tax
> dollars, either.
Actually I don't. I'd prefer to fund schools on a local level. Period, end
of story, no entitlements, no Title One funds, nada. I may be dreaming, but
I think there are too many government mandates, the kind of thing that says
teach what I want the way I say or you don't get the green backs.
>
>> No, I said, a child won't see past the pretty picture, the nude lady or the
>> strange language. And a slide show from a visiting lecturer is more likely
>> do some good than trip to a museum. After all, you are looking for
>> appreciation not confusion and distaste.
You
>
> You have a very narrow view, I'm afraid.
No - time in a class room and with a large range of kids. You are out of
touch with all but the narrow range who folks want them to have piano
lessons.
>
>> And sport is part of the broad spectrum of culture; you just consider it
>> beneath you.
>
> No, I don't.
Funny that is how you are coming off.
I figure if the trip to sports venue sparks something - any thing else in
one kid that would not of other wise been sparked the trip is worthwhile. I
can see some little kid getting really psyched over the huge fans the move
the air just as much as getting to walk where their hero plays. You've
sparked an engineer or a scientist. Some kid that gets to play the organ
might get interested in music.
>
> Liberal? No. Centrist, Yes. Basic education? Absolutely. Including
> the basics of art, literature, music. A modicum of sports presented in
> a healthy, team-spirited intent.
>
>
NO, literacy, basic math, science, civics, physical education (like real
exercise) first, art, literature, music, second and only after mastery of
the basics. Sports don't belong in the education system. School sports
breeds corruption of the education system. Team sports belong to another
sphere.
Cheryl
Linda D.
<dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
>I agree with you in your above statements. But culture shouldn't be
>absent from school . . . it is a part of our "humanities". I'm not an
>opera fan. I've tried. But I have enjoyed immensely some "lighter"
>operas, and many *heavy* arias. If you don't open up a child's ear, you
>lose him forever. These are things that a child has to be surrounded
>with from birth. You don't wake up at 16 and decide you like Picasso.
Hmm....now IMHO it's the parents who should be exposing the
children to what they feel the children need. I would not be taking
my kids to any operas nor would I be taking them to a museum. We
don't have operas in our city and the museum...well, it's okay I
suppose, and yes, they have visited that with their school.
>While we're at it: If you don't think it takes a village, and if you
>don't think I should have any input, then maybe you don't want my tax
>dollars, either.
Ackkkk....I was waiting for this to come up. I hear this cry
often in our city :( The seniors don't want to contribute to the
education system, but they want us 'under 65's' to put lots of money
into the health care system they use so much.
>The only diamond I have is my mother's and grandmother's put into one
>ring. I don't wear designer anything because I refuse to advertise for
>them. Who in their right mind wants "Gucci" printed all over their
>evening wear?
What does Gucci have to do with diamonds? I don't 'get' that
part :(
>Liberal? No. Centrist, Yes. Basic education? Absolutely. Including
>the basics of art, literature, music. A modicum of sports presented in
>a healthy, team-spirited intent.
>
>Dianne
Dianne, there is no doubt you have very strong feelings about
the arts, not all of us do. I don't care if my kids ever go to an
opera or read Shakespeare or see a Picasso.
I was quite taken aback at the book my son's English
Instructor chose for them to read in English 116 at college. I don't
know if you've heard of it, but it's called "A Handmaids Tale", Why
would any English teacher assign a book that is so geared to women is
beyond me. What a great way to turn off guys to literature.
take care. Linda :)
Vancouver Island, bc.ca :) (remove 'nospam' to reply)
See samples of my work at: www.members.shaw.ca/deugau
Ericka Kammerer
>>Re: Message for animaux
>>From: Cheryl Isaak
>>
>
>>.... But I will continue to skip the opera - those poor singers can sound like
>>they are in such pain. LOL
>>
>
> I am not "into" what I call heavy opera -- Wagner and such. I DO like light
> opera -- Gilbert & Sullivan for instance and just about any type of choral
> (sp?) programmes. I'm not sure if my dislike of "heavy opera" is because I
> don't understand it (language barriers and all that) or just because it sounds
> so melodramatic. then again, I have never attended any "heavy opera"
> performances and that might have something to do with it. I should imagine if
> you can *see* what is going on during the performanc, it would make it more
> easily understood and hence be more enjoyable.
Opera tends to be an acquired taste. It's hard to
appreciate opera without doing your homework so that you
understand the story and something about the music itself.
It is *much* easier to understand it if you see the opera
in person. If you do it a few times, you'll start seeing
it in a whole new light. The music isn't as melodramatic
as it might seem from the "outside."
Best wishes,
Ericka
Cheryl Isaak
Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
I've read the libretto prior to listening to Aida and Don Juan. My roommate
raved about those two in particular. Stories are interesting enough, I think
I don't have the "ear". And yes, an act from Don Juan live once. Just
doesn't entrance me like some other things do.
Cheryl
Texasxsgal1
kathy
san antonio
Ericka Kammerer
> I was quite taken aback at the book my son's English
> Instructor chose for them to read in English 116 at college. I don't
> know if you've heard of it, but it's called "A Handmaids Tale", Why
> would any English teacher assign a book that is so geared to women is
> beyond me. What a great way to turn off guys to literature.
Are you kidding me? We are supposed to still be
coddling students in *college* and trying to drag them
kicking and screaming into literature? By the time
you're in college, it's lump it or leave it, as far
as I'm concerned. You read the book because it's a
significant book and you can learn something from it,
not because you have to have education sugar-coated.
And, assuming that the offerings in the course
covered a wide variety of genres, I see nothing more
wrong with having the men in the class read Atwood
than with the women reading Shakespeare.
Sorry if that's too blunt, but I have little
patience left for *adults* (even young adults) who
*pay* to get an education and then complain that it's
not all "fun."
Best wishes,
Ericka
Cheryl Isaak
"Karen C - California" <kmc...@aol.com.LuvXS> wrote:
> In article <20040115160600...@mb-m14.aol.com>,
> catwo...@aol.comnekoluvr (Tia Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply ) writes:
>
>> Of course, ANY Bugs Bunny or Daffy performance that includes "heavy opera"
>> IS imminently enjoyable and quite acceptable to my way of thinking :-)))!
>
> Getcher butt out here! At this time of year, with all the rain and dark days,
> Looney Tunes Musical Masterpieces is a frequent visitor to the VCR!
>
> Weeeeeetuwwwwn my wuvvvvv!
>
I'll have to find that one - I have a Tex Avery tape that I adore!
> For a fun experience with heavy opera, get The Anna Russell Album. She hits
> the highlights of The Ring Cycle in 18 minutes, concluding <high pitched,
> nasal
> voice, British accent> "And here you ahhhh, twennnnty-threee
> aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhrrrs later, RIGHT BACK WHERE WE STARTED!!!!" Thereupon, you
> play your serious Ring Cycle CD, and ROFLMAOWTIMEWPIMP because you can't hear
> the music without thinking of how she skewered it!
I've heard of it, wonder if it is at the library.
>
> (I'll have to have Mom try to track down MY version of the Ring, including a
> bunch of mermaids singing "My beer is Rheingold, the dry beer" and one of the
> lovesick wailing "Since my baby left me, I found a new place to dwell, it's
> down the end of Lonely Street, the Heartbreak Hotel", while the guy fashioning
> the magic ring sings "Take a ring, and add another ring, and add another ring,
> and now you've got three rings, Ballantyne!". Hey -- it's a German opera, and
> what's more German than beer?)
>
> Oh, Bwunnhiwwwde, you're so wuvwy!
> Yes, I know it, I cahn't help it!
Spew!
Cheryl
>
Karen C - California
(Texasxsgal1) writes:
>Thebest way I've found to enjoy opera is with my hearing aid OFF.
Hmmmm, my friend says that's the best way to listen to her son's favorite radio
station.
Cheryl Isaak
"Texasxsgal1" <texas...@aol.com> wrote:
Double spew!
Cheryl
Cheryl Isaak
"Karen C - California" <kmc...@aol.com.LuvXS> wrote:
> In article <20040115212643...@mb-m14.aol.com>, texas...@aol.com
> (Texasxsgal1) writes:
>
>> Thebest way I've found to enjoy opera is with my hearing aid OFF.
>
> Hmmmm, my friend says that's the best way to listen to her son's favorite
> radio
> station.
>
And spew again. I am SO lucky that DS isn't into rap or the other cr*p!
Cheryl
Cheryl Isaak
Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
What a great choice of book - it could be science fiction, it could be
morality play. I'd have paired it with A Brave New World or even 1984.
Cheryl
Caryn
>with from birth. You don't wake up at 16 and decide you like Picasso.
>
Why not?
I continually grow as a human being, I discover new likes, and outgrow old
ones. The things I enjoyed as a child, I didn't enjoy as a teen, and these
things continued to change as I went thru my 20's, and 30's.
I'm in my 40's now, I've discovered that I actually do like asparagus, Frank
Lloyd Wright's style isn't boring anymore, rainbows are still pretty, but
definately don't play a part in how I choose colors for afghans anymore.
I don't like Picasso now, nor did I when I first saw one of his paintings as a
teenager. I really like Monet now, but thought it looked like blobs when I was
younger. My childhood field trips were to places as varied as a potato chip
factory and the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NY. I like some art, I like some
potato chips. I don't think either field trip was a waste of time, as I
learned something during both.
A trip to a football field may not seem "important" or educational, but
sometimes part of the reason they take kids on field trips is to foster
feelings of camaraderie, and also because sometimes kids just need a break from
the day to day school grind in order to be able to settle in and actually learn
something afterwards.
Just because you, a person without a child in the school system, doesn't see
the value, doesn't mean there isn't one. If the parents who are the ones
paying for the field trip object, they can choose to have their children not
participate. It's not for an outsider to get all huffy and decide for them.
Caryn
Blue Wizard Designs
http://hometown.aol.com/crzy4xst/index.html
Updated: 7/7/03 -- now available Dragon of the Stars
View WIPs at: http://community.webshots.com/user/carynlws (Caryn's UFO's)
Ericka Kammerer
> I've read the libretto prior to listening to Aida and Don Juan. My roommate
> raved about those two in particular. Stories are interesting enough, I think
> I don't have the "ear". And yes, an act from Don Juan live once. Just
> doesn't entrance me like some other things do.
It's not an easy thing. Much of the music pushes your
ear into territory it's not accustomed to. Once you work your
way up to it, you can see the beauty of it, but until your
ear can make heads or tails out of it, it just doesn't know
how to appreciate it. Most of the music we listen to doesn't
demand much from us. Our ears just know where it's going
and what it's doing and we don't even have to pay much
attention to "get" it. Most of the "heavier" operas *do*
demand a lot. I suspect that if you wanted to put in
the effort, you would get to a point where it *would*
entrance you, but obviously it's a personal decision
whether one wants to put in that sort of effort. I
didn't have a lot of choice at music school, so I got to
learn to like it regardless of my original intentions
or desires ;-)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Karen C - California
<chery...@adelphia.net> writes:
>Spew!
You expect any different of a post from me? :)
But, Cheryl dear, you seem to be spewing a lot this evening. You aren't coming
down with the flu, are you? Here, lie down on the couch with this nice quilt,
a warm cat on your feet, and I'll bring you some chicken soup, in the special
Campbell's Chicken Noodle cup. I'll even let you have the spot with the
daylight bulb so you can stitch easier.
Seanette Blaylock
things to say about Re: OT school trips WAS Re: Message for animaux:
>(I'll have to have Mom try to track down MY version of the Ring, including a
>bunch of mermaids singing "My beer is Rheingold, the dry beer" and one of the
>lovesick wailing "Since my baby left me, I found a new place to dwell, it's
>down the end of Lonely Street, the Heartbreak Hotel", while the guy fashioning
>the magic ring sings "Take a ring, and add another ring, and add another ring,
>and now you've got three rings, Ballantyne!". Hey -- it's a German opera, and
>what's more German than beer?)
So where does the "one Ring to rule them all" come in? [GD&R]
--
"The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be
doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding.
:-)" - the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL
Seanette Blaylock
say about Re: OT school trips WAS Re: Message for animaux:
> Opera tends to be an acquired taste. It's hard to
>appreciate opera without doing your homework so that you
>understand the story and something about the music itself.
>It is *much* easier to understand it if you see the opera
>in person. If you do it a few times, you'll start seeing
>it in a whole new light. The music isn't as melodramatic
>as it might seem from the "outside."
My major difficulties with opera are the language barrier [hard to
follow the plot when I can't understand what they're saying] and the
pain factor when the sopranos start in [I'm serious. Opera sopranos
can hit notes that are physically painful to me].
Ericka Kammerer
> My major difficulties with opera are the language barrier [hard to
> follow the plot when I can't understand what they're saying] and the
> pain factor when the sopranos start in [I'm serious. Opera sopranos
> can hit notes that are physically painful to me].
Don't you just wonder how the heck they stand it
themselves? ;-) I play flute, so I'm used to the really
high notes, but I can't imagine producing them with my
own *body*! Of course, vocally I can't carry a tune in
a bucket with a lid, so I have a lot of admiration for
vocalists.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Karen C - California
<seanette.spam...@impulse.net> writes:
> [I'm serious. Opera sopranos
>can hit notes that are physically painful to me].
Ooooooooooooooooooh, now I know how to make Seanette behave next time she comes
to visit. I'll send the crystal home with DBF, tape the windows against
breakage, and hit high C. VBEG
Texasxsgal1
the bagpipes and the classical thai music and focourse the drums and
percussive stuff at the deep end go figger
Actually I think it may have something to do with the pattern of my hearing
loss- which tones are ok
kathy
san antonio
Seanette Blaylock
things to say about Re: OT school trips WAS Re: Message for animaux:
><seanette.spam...@impulse.net> writes:
>> [I'm serious. Opera sopranos
>>can hit notes that are physically painful to me].
>Ooooooooooooooooooh, now I know how to make Seanette behave next time she comes
>to visit. I'll send the crystal home with DBF, tape the windows against
>breakage, and hit high C. VBEG
I'll figure out some way to get revenge. :-)
Cheryl Isaak
20040115222832...@mb-m15.aol.com, "Karen C - California"
<kmc...@aol.com.LuvXS> wrote:
> In article <BC2CBAD3.2B0BF%chery...@adelphia.net>, Cheryl Isaak
> <chery...@adelphia.net> writes:
>
>> Spew!
>
> You expect any different of a post from me? :)
>
> But, Cheryl dear, you seem to be spewing a lot this evening. You aren't
> coming
> down with the flu, are you? Here, lie down on the couch with this nice quilt,
> a warm cat on your feet, and I'll bring you some chicken soup, in the special
> Campbell's Chicken Noodle cup. I'll even let you have the spot with the
> daylight bulb so you can stitch easier.
>
>
>
No - but I need an extra laugh or two - no school for DD in the AM and DS
has a 90 minute delay and I get to drive him and his project in tomorrow!
BRRR - -10, might get to -20!
Cheryl
Jenn Liace
Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply ) wrote:
>Of course, ANY Bugs Bunny or Daffy performance that includes "heavy opera"
>IS imminently enjoyable and quite acceptable to my way of thinking :-)))!
Gee, might you be referring to Kill Da Wabbit???? =)
Jenn L.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jaliace
http://sewu9corn.blogspot.com
Current projects:
Simply Sensational January Calendar (Mill Hill)
Lady of the Flag (Mirabilia)
Linda D.
I never said the book had to be "fun", I just feel it would be
beneficial to attempt to offer a book that would be of interest to all
the students in a first year English class.
Btw, my son isn't looking for *fun*, he's a Grad student in a
Masters program for Computer Science. He took the English course just
in case he decided to go into Education, but has since decided not
to..
take care, Linda :)
On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:11:22 -0500, Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> Are you kidding me? We are supposed to still be
>coddling students in *college* and trying to drag them
>kicking and screaming into literature? By the time
>you're in college, it's lump it or leave it, as far
>as I'm concerned. You read the book because it's a
>significant book and you can learn something from it,
>not because you have to have education sugar-coated.
>And, assuming that the offerings in the course
>covered a wide variety of genres, I see nothing more
>wrong with having the men in the class read Atwood
>than with the women reading Shakespeare.
> Sorry if that's too blunt, but I have little
>patience left for *adults* (even young adults) who
>*pay* to get an education and then complain that it's
>not all "fun."
>
>Best wishes,
>Ericka
>
Vancouver Island, bc.ca :) (remove 'nospam' to reply)
Cheryl Isaak
Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
Erika - love the last comment. Senior year, I tutored two Music majors in
the 101 level math (read algebra) and 101 level Astronomy; in return I got
the short form of the music appreciation course (tribal music to Phillip
Glass).
Nope, I'd bet even with lots of time on my part, those high notes would
still hurt my ears. But I did find the history behind the opera
interesting.
Cheryl
Cheryl Isaak
"Jenn Liace" <sewun...@wedontwantspam.com> wrote:
> On 15 Jan 2004 21:06:00 GMT, catwo...@aol.comnekoluvr (Tia
> Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply ) wrote:
>
>> Of course, ANY Bugs Bunny or Daffy performance that includes "heavy opera"
>> IS imminently enjoyable and quite acceptable to my way of thinking :-)))!
>
> Gee, might you be referring to Kill Da Wabbit???? =)
>
>
>
Or
Figaro, Figaro, hair cut and a shave, two bits!
Cheryl
Cheryl Isaak
wrote:
>> These are things that a child has to be surrounded
>> with from birth. You don't wake up at 16 and decide you like Picasso.
>>
>
> Why not?
A certain level of maturity is needed to "like" lots of art. I used to think
the Guggenheim was butt ugly, but now my eye sees it. And some "modern" art
is away beyond even high school students. Heck, it's beyond me. And I have
sat down and "used" the stuff I learned in Art History to break it down.
>
> I continually grow as a human being, I discover new likes, and outgrow old
> ones. The things I enjoyed as a child, I didn't enjoy as a teen, and these
> things continued to change as I went thru my 20's, and 30's.
>
> I'm in my 40's now, I've discovered that I actually do like asparagus, Frank
> Lloyd Wright's style isn't boring anymore, rainbows are still pretty, but
> definately don't play a part in how I choose colors for afghans anymore.
>
> I don't like Picasso now, nor did I when I first saw one of his paintings as a
> teenager. I really like Monet now, but thought it looked like blobs when I
> was
> younger. My childhood field trips were to places as varied as a potato chip
> factory and the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NY. I like some art, I like
> some
> potato chips. I don't think either field trip was a waste of time, as I
> learned something during both.
>
> A trip to a football field may not seem "important" or educational, but
> sometimes part of the reason they take kids on field trips is to foster
> feelings of camaraderie, and also because sometimes kids just need a break
> from
> the day to day school grind in order to be able to settle in and actually
> learn
> something afterwards.
Every teacher I know (and I know a lot of them) says that kids are really
charged up after a field trip! that's a good thing!
>
> Just because you, a person without a child in the school system, doesn't see
> the value, doesn't mean there isn't one. If the parents who are the ones
> paying for the field trip object, they can choose to have their children not
> participate. It's not for an outsider to get all huffy and decide for them.
>
Thank you! My point exactly!
Cheryl
Tia Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply
>While opera (and viloins and organs) drive me nuts, i Just love the skirl of
>the bagpipes .......
The actual sounds of opera don't bother me at all -- it's just that I have
no idea what is being "said" :-)! I've also wondered about what sounds llike
forced melodrama to my ear. Ericka is right -- I have never really been
exposed to opera in person and I am sure that makes a big difference in
enjoying it.
As for the pipes -- I LOVE bagpipes of all sorts! I am especially fond of
the Uiellian (sp?) pipes but any bagpipe music is "music to my ears". I like
them so much that I paid to have a piper at DD's wedding! Of course, the fact
that I am Irish and my DSonIL is Scottish had a bit to do with that decision
:-). CiaoMeow >^;;^<
.
PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< Queen of Kitties
Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their
WHISKERS!!
Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs!
Dianne Lewandowski
>>And you think visits to a football field are a necessary part of
>>education?
>
> Have you ever checked to see what goes on at this trip? What do they do? Go
> kiss the ground and leave again? I can't imagine the teachers would put up
> with it.
Yes, otherwise I wouldn't be ranting about it. It is a RELIGION in
these parts. Way over the top. Idolatry.
> Sorry that part was uncalled for on my part, but, so is insisting only high
> brow culture to be taught.
Who said that? And what is "high brow" anyway? Define that, please.
> Then you tried - now forget about it. Find another way you can make a
> difference. Remember, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it
> drink. Or to put it another way, the village can say no, we don't have need
> of your skill.
That is so narrow and mean-spirited . . . beneath you. It isn't a
matter of "needing our skills", it is a matter of not opening their
eyes. I have many skills. The simple fact is, we are outcasts. You
should see how they treated a local doctor who is an immigrant. Or the
wonderful, enlightened couple who tried to open a bed/breakfast. They
finally got it - and are doing great things for the town in their little
niche . . . but it was a 3-year battle.
> And I think there is more in common than you are willing to see. We're using
> tax dollars for the internet at the kindergarten level, not to buy basic
> supplies. Your town uses those dollars for something else. We have kids that
> aren't learning to read, just like you. We have a drug problem too.
I said that from the very beginning . . . I totally agree with you. But
you came back with "I don't believe in 'it takes a village' approach."
And you as much said that what I think, as a tax-paying member of my
local schools, that I should have any input.
> Actually I don't. I'd prefer to fund schools on a local level. Period, end
> of story, no entitlements, no Title One funds, nada.
Well, without Title One funds (or is that Title Nine?), this district
would be worse than it is. However, I agree that there are too many
mandates which are not funded.
But a "village" is my town. I pay taxes in MY town. So what happens
here is my direct responsibility, whether or not I have children in the
local schools. You have taken the conversation from "local" to the
"federal" level. I wasn't talking about that.
> No - time in a class room and with a large range of kids. You are out of
> touch with all but the narrow range who folks want them to have piano
> lessons.
That is a very judgmental statement. I have lots more interaction than
with just the ones who traipse through my door for piano lessons.
>>>And sport is part of the broad spectrum of culture; you just consider it
>>>beneath you.
>>
>>No, I don't.
>
> Funny that is how you are coming off.
That is the way YOU are perceiving it based on your own prejudice.
> I figure if the trip to sports venue sparks something - any thing else in
> one kid that would not of other wise been sparked the trip is worthwhile. I
> can see some little kid getting really psyched over the huge fans the move
> the air just as much as getting to walk where their hero plays. You've
> sparked an engineer or a scientist. Some kid that gets to play the organ
> might get interested in music.
You are stretching it to rationalize your own point of view. The
educational process should not be getting kids psyched over football
heros. That's up to Dad and Mom (or other guardian) to introduce in a
balanced way.
> NO, literacy, basic math, science, civics, physical education (like real
> exercise) first, art, literature, music, second and only after mastery of
> the basics. Sports don't belong in the education system. School sports
> breeds corruption of the education system. Team sports belong to another
> sphere.
If kids didn't get driven everywhere they go, there needn't be a need
for "physical education". Secondly, physical education can be dance.
Literature is a part of reading, grammar, spelling and teaching children
to think. Art and music are a part of culture. 200 years ago,
EVERYbody joined in.
I agree about school sports breeding corruption, and that team sports
belong to another sphere entirely.
Dianne
Dianne Lewandowski
Dianne said:>>While we're at it: If you don't think it takes a village,
and if you
>>don't think I should have any input, then maybe you don't want my tax
>>dollars, either.
Then Linda D responded: Ackkkk....I was waiting for this to come up. I
hear this cry
> often in our city :( The seniors don't want to contribute to the
> education system, but they want us 'under 65's' to put lots of money
> into the health care system they use so much.
If you read what I originally said, you wouldn't be misinterpreting my
comments. I said I tried to get involved in the local schools on a
voluntary basis. I said I have some opinions on what should be taught
in our local schools. Cheryl said I had no business with input; that
she didn't believe in the "it takes a village" philosophy. To which I
replied: Then why do parents need my tax dollars? You can't have it
both ways. I pay taxes, therefore I have a say in how schools are run,
whether or not I have children in them.
> What does Gucci have to do with diamonds? I don't 'get' that
> part :(
Ask Cheryl. She was intimating that I'm some hoity toity person who
wears diamonds and designer clothing just because I believe that
"humanities" should be a part of school curriculum.
> Dianne, there is no doubt you have very strong feelings about
> the arts, not all of us do. I don't care if my kids ever go to an
> opera or read Shakespeare or see a Picasso.
My mother didn't like that "stuff" either. Thank the gods I had
grandparents, a father, aunts, uncles and teachers and schools who
insisted upon it and surrounded me with it. I'll bet you were never
exposed to it. Or that your family said: "Classical music? Yuck!
Hate the stuff!" That's very common. As is the notion that it only
belongs to those uppity ups who dress up in tuxes and gowns. That is
called a cultural war. A totally slanted view. One needn't be rich or
uppity to enjoy the richness of finer culture.
> I was quite taken aback at the book my son's English
> Instructor chose for them to read in English 116 at college. I don't
> know if you've heard of it, but it's called "A Handmaids Tale", Why
> would any English teacher assign a book that is so geared to women is
> beyond me. What a great way to turn off guys to literature.
Not familiar so can't comment.
Dianne
Ericka Kammerer
>>From: texas...@aol.com (Texasxsgal1)
>>
>
>>While opera (and viloins and organs) drive me nuts, i Just love the skirl of
>>the bagpipes .......
>>
>
> The actual sounds of opera don't bother me at all -- it's just that I have
> no idea what is being "said" :-)! I've also wondered about what sounds llike
> forced melodrama to my ear.
Wagner is a bit bombastic (not to mention rather long-
winded ;-) but when you start to "get" it, it seems less
melodramatic and makes more sense. It sure isn't Mozart,
though!
> Ericka is right -- I have never really been
> exposed to opera in person and I am sure that makes a big difference in
> enjoying it.
It does make it a lot easier to follow the story, but
more than that, the music sounds different in person too.
Despite being a classical musician, I don't have all that
many classical recordings. I really don't enjoy *any* classical
recordings *nearly* as much as I enjoy them live, so I
always find the recordings rather disappointing. I really
should have more recordings now that the kids are getting
more into music. Adrian was learning a simple version of
a tune from Dvorak's New World Symphony on piano (the part
with the famous french horn tune), and I didn't even have
a recording to play for him so he could hear how the
orchestral version sounded!
> As for the pipes -- I LOVE bagpipes of all sorts! I am especially fond of
> the Uiellian (sp?) pipes but any bagpipe music is "music to my ears".
I love 'em too.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen
> Opera tends to be an acquired taste. It's hard to
> appreciate opera without doing your homework so that you
> understand the story and something about the music itself.
> It is *much* easier to understand it if you see the opera
> in person. If you do it a few times, you'll start seeing
> it in a whole new light. The music isn't as melodramatic
> as it might seem from the "outside."
>
> Ericka
>
This is why I thought it so shortsighted that the local opera company
offers no discount tickets for families. When DD started to express an
interest in opera, I tried to get affordable tickets, and there were
none to be had. I understand that it is very expensive to produce and
opera, of course, but the producers also have to understand that not
every family can afford $75/seat (no discount for children) and
accommodate that somehow. It could be half price day-of-show, or half
price for dress rehearsal, or SOMETHING, but they had *nothing* that I,
as a parent, could bring my middle-school daughter to (at the time when
she was deciding whether to apply to the vocal music program at the arts
high school). Now she goes for free with her HS vocal music class,
because dress rehearsals are free for HS student groups if the school
wants to participate. But when she was in middle school, they wouldn't
allow me to organize such a group based on her voice teacher's students,
or anything outside of an organized school group.
College students can get cheap ($20) tickets, though...but by then
you're competing for a *very* scarce resource ($20 for a college kid
could be a lot) and it's even developmentally later. Seems to me if you
can expose a kid in middle school, and keep them through high school,
you're building your college and beyond audience.
Sue
Ericka Kammerer
> I never said the book had to be "fun", I just feel it would be
> beneficial to attempt to offer a book that would be of interest to all
> the students in a first year English class.
Why would one assume a dystopian science fiction book
exploring the possible consequences of a right-wing patriarchal
extremist society would be uninteresting to men (or anyone
else)? I would think it would generate fascinating class
discussions and be far more accessible than many other
novels. I just don't like pigeonholing people that way.
Plus, the wonder of literature is that it gives access to
different world views. What's the point of reading only
about what one has personally experienced? ;-)
> Btw, my son isn't looking for *fun*, he's a Grad student in a
> Masters program for Computer Science. He took the English course just
> in case he decided to go into Education, but has since decided not
> to..
I would certainly hope he isn't in it just for fun
(though I would also hope that he *does* at least find
elements of fun in his chosen areas). But I don't get
how encountering an important, well-written, insightful
novel could put someone off literature or education.
What would your son say about an English major taking
an intro computer course (to broaden his or her
horizons) who objected to learning, say, the c programming
language because he or she thought java was more relevant
personally? I suspect your son would recognize that one
has to start somewhere with *a* language, and that learning
*any* language helps build a foundation for understanding
programming concepts and learning other languages and
would bristle at the notion that students should expect
that each of them should be taught the language each
felt most relevant to him- or herself at the moment.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Cheryl Isaak
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
> Linda D. wrote:
Big snip!
>
>> What does Gucci have to do with diamonds? I don't 'get' that
>> part :(
>
> Ask Cheryl. She was intimating that I'm some hoity toity person who
> wears diamonds and designer clothing just because I believe that
> "humanities" should be a part of school curriculum.
>
First, I said I didn't want to got to the classical events, I didn't want
the local nouveau "cultured" looking down their collective noses at ME. Of
course they'd be looking down their noses at the students, the senior
citizens and anyone else not chic.
>> Dianne, there is no doubt you have very strong feelings about
>> the arts, not all of us do. I don't care if my kids ever go to an
>> opera or read Shakespeare or see a Picasso.
>
> My mother didn't like that "stuff" either. Thank the gods I had
> grandparents, a father, aunts, uncles and teachers and schools who
> insisted upon it and surrounded me with it. I'll bet you were never
> exposed to it. Or that your family said: "Classical music? Yuck!
> Hate the stuff!" That's very common. As is the notion that it only
> belongs to those uppity ups who dress up in tuxes and gowns. That is
> called a cultural war. A totally slanted view. One needn't be rich or
> uppity to enjoy the richness of finer culture.
But it is true that the local "opera house" has a dress code that includes
ties and no jeans and designates "formal nights".
>
>> I was quite taken aback at the book my son's English
>> Instructor chose for them to read in English 116 at college. I don't
>> know if you've heard of it, but it's called "A Handmaids Tale", Why
>> would any English teacher assign a book that is so geared to women is
>> beyond me. What a great way to turn off guys to literature.
>
> Not familiar so can't comment.
> Dianne
>
Great book - you'd like it!
Cheryl
Ericka Kammerer
> This is why I thought it so shortsighted that the local opera company
> offers no discount tickets for families. When DD started to express an
> interest in opera, I tried to get affordable tickets, and there were
> none to be had. I understand that it is very expensive to produce and
> opera, of course, but the producers also have to understand that not
> every family can afford $75/seat (no discount for children) and
> accommodate that somehow. It could be half price day-of-show, or half
> price for dress rehearsal, or SOMETHING, but they had *nothing* that I,
> as a parent, could bring my middle-school daughter to (at the time when
> she was deciding whether to apply to the vocal music program at the arts
> high school). Now she goes for free with her HS vocal music class,
> because dress rehearsals are free for HS student groups if the school
> wants to participate. But when she was in middle school, they wouldn't
> allow me to organize such a group based on her voice teacher's students,
> or anything outside of an organized school group.
>
> College students can get cheap ($20) tickets, though...but by then
> you're competing for a *very* scarce resource ($20 for a college kid
> could be a lot) and it's even developmentally later. Seems to me if you
> can expose a kid in middle school, and keep them through high school,
> you're building your college and beyond audience.
True. I don't know what you have in your area, but
you could maybe keep your eyes peeled for recitals. They
tend to be inexpensive or free. It's not the same as seeing
a full blown opera, but you at least get to hear "real"
singing.
Are there any programs in your area not hosted by
the specific companies? For instance, in DC there's Stages
for All Ages, which has inexpensive tickets for children.
You are very limited in which performances and the number
of tickets, but if you call early you can get tickets for
kids for a reasonable price. Since I think our kids have
too many toys, we try to encourage "experiences" for
birthday gifts. My oldest will soon be nine years old
and my parents are fishing around for a show to take him
to. Last year, they took him to the ballet to see Peter
Pan, and it was terribly expensive at full freight (but
he really loved it).
Best wishes,
Ericka
Tia Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply
>..... Despite being a classical musician, I don't have all that
>many classical recordings. I really don't enjoy *any* classical
>recordings *nearly* as much as I enjoy them live ........
Not being a musician, I love it live or recorded :-)! I probably ahve as
many classical recordings as I do "regular" music. #1 on my car radio is the
PBS station that plays classics from 9 to 3 during the day. DD has grown up
listening to it and she is doing the same for the SMDGD.
I have thought long and hard about just *why* I like classical music so
much. I am the only one in the family with an affinity for it. I have decided
that it's a result of being the first generation to grow up with television and
cartoon shows. Have you ever watched any of the old cartoons? The music is
almost *always* one of the great classics! So I grew up watching fun stuff on
the telly and listening to classical music at the same time! Add to that the
absolute WONDER of seeing Fantasia when young and I was hooked for life :-))!
Ya' think maybe that's why I get a kick out of Bugs Bunny doing Flight of the
Valkyries??? LOL CiaoMeow >^;;^<
Ericka Kammerer
> First, I said I didn't want to got to the classical events, I didn't want
> the local nouveau "cultured" looking down their collective noses at ME. Of
> course they'd be looking down their noses at the students, the senior
> citizens and anyone else not chic.
Why would you think they'd be doing that? I go whenever
I get the chance, and the only people I've ever seen "looked
down at" were people with no concert manners (talking during
the performance, cell phones/pagers making noise, kicking the
seat in front, etc.). There's usually a very wide range of
ages and types in the audience That's part of what makes it
fun--great people watching during intermission!
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
>
> Not being a musician, I love it live or recorded :-)! I probably ahve as
> many classical recordings as I do "regular" music. #1 on my car radio is the
> PBS station that plays classics from 9 to 3 during the day. DD has grown up
> listening to it and she is doing the same for the SMDGD.
That is an excellent plan. It really, really makes a
difference, just like learning a foreign language. When you
get the sounds in your ears, your brain learns to make sense
of it, and the earlier you're exposed the better. You can
see this as an adult if you try to develop an appreciation
for non-Western music. In the beginning, it just sounds like
noise because your ears can't make sense of it. If you study
and listen for quite some time, you'll get to a point where
it starts sounding "normal" because you've finally trained
yourself to make sense of it. My son's piano teacher says
she can always tell which children have been exposed to
classical music and which haven't, because those that have
are able to make more sense of the music and play with more
musicality much earlier. I always figure it's a very good
thing to keep children's options open by exposing them to
many things while young just in case they take to it later
on.
> I have thought long and hard about just *why* I like classical music so
> much. I am the only one in the family with an affinity for it. I have decided
> that it's a result of being the first generation to grow up with television and
> cartoon shows. Have you ever watched any of the old cartoons? The music is
> almost *always* one of the great classics! So I grew up watching fun stuff on
> the telly and listening to classical music at the same time! Add to that the
> absolute WONDER of seeing Fantasia when young and I was hooked for life :-))!
> Ya' think maybe that's why I get a kick out of Bugs Bunny doing Flight of the
> Valkyries???
Absolutely. The older cartoon music is *fabulous*, even
the stuff that isn't poached from the classical literature. It's
a shame so much of the film/tv/cartoon music now is so lacking.
Much of it now is just throwaway music (with some notable
exceptions, of course).
Best wishes,
Ericka
Cheryl Isaak
Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
Remember, I live on the East Coast in the middle a region filled with the
universities of New England. Definitely a "dress code" - shabby preppy
clothes are more acceptable than pressed K-Mart specials.
Cheryl
Cheryl Isaak
I'll tell you the story of a volunteer that was told to take her efforts
elsewhere. She found several interesting opportunities for "enrichment" in
science, history (Strawberry Bank trip), music ( a Jewish folk group) and a
thought for the fifth grade trip (traditional a play).
The weather was great - fit in perfectly for the science curriculum. The
music was referred up to the middle school - the general music program (as
opposed to instrument track) where was a better fit. (1-3 is primarily
choral work, followed by introduction of instruments and introduction of
classical works.) The history didn't fit - the curriculum was for a "farming
village" not a port town. The play wasn't even close - meant for 16-18 year
olds not 9-11 year olds and on a subject not covered in that grade.
So - please book the buses for the trip to the play the teachers picked (a
musical about colonial life). Here's the phone number. Never did, why?,
cause it didn't fit what she wanted the kids to see.
Didn't want to play by the rules, so screwed the students out the trip and
the committee out of the $800 cost. Because she wanted it her way and told
the rest of the world to blow when she didn't get it.
She is not welcome at any PTA in town now and had her dues returned to her.
Frankly, I wouldn't mind having a concerned and dedicated non parent and new
comer ask what they could do to help. But if there was no "fit", we'd point
her (or him) a better direction. I guess there is no better direction,
locally, for you. But you made the choice to move where you did (and I am
not saying you had other viable options), your input was not welcomed, stop
tearing your self up over it. You will self destruct other wise.
>
>> Actually I don't. I'd prefer to fund schools on a local level. Period, end
>> of story, no entitlements, no Title One funds, nada.
>
> Well, without Title One funds (or is that Title Nine?), this district
> would be worse than it is. However, I agree that there are too many
> mandates which are not funded.
Title One is "literacy", Title IX is equal funding of sports programs for
males and females.
>
> But a "village" is my town. I pay taxes in MY town. So what happens
> here is my direct responsibility,
No - you have a secondary responsibility, to pay taxes. You aren't on the
school board or a member of the PTA or a have a student, so you do not have
a direct responsibility for education.
Cheryl
Ericka Kammerer
> On 1/16/04 11:11 AM, in article 40080D4...@comcast.net, "Ericka
> Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>Why would you think they'd be doing that? I go whenever
>>I get the chance, and the only people I've ever seen "looked
>>down at" were people with no concert manners (talking during
>>the performance, cell phones/pagers making noise, kicking the
>>seat in front, etc.). There's usually a very wide range of
>>ages and types in the audience That's part of what makes it
>>fun--great people watching during intermission!
>>
> Remember, I live on the East Coast in the middle a region filled with the
> universities of New England. Definitely a "dress code" - shabby preppy
> clothes are more acceptable than pressed K-Mart specials.
While there are some things that are more formal
(e.g., the big evening opera performances), even in that
environment there are plenty of places you shouldn't find
any issues. I had several friends going to school (some
to music school) in that area and aside from going to,
say, the Met, they were quite tolerant as long as you
looked like you'd made an effort to show respect for the
artists. Certainly the shows at the colleges (which are
your best bets for affordable, high quality performances)
generally have a wide range of attire, generally including
college students in little better than jeans and a t-shirt!
Now I live near Washington DC (so still relatively
stuffy East Coast), and aside from the really big bang
events at the Kennedy Center, I see all sorts at most
concerts at most venues. I confess I don't think jeans
and a t-shirt are appropriate at a nicer concert, but
neither I nor anyone else I know would bat an eyelash
at anyone who looked like they'd made *some* effort.
In fact, I'm often surprised at what people will actually
wear to a show. I often see stuff I wouldn't wear to
do yard work at home, much less to a show I'd paid good
money to see, yet no one seems to notice, much less
complain.
There are certainly barriers to attendance, but
I'd see them more as money and parking than attire, with
rare exceptions.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Lynne M.
> I was quite taken aback at the book my son's English
> Instructor chose for them to read in English 116 at college. I don't
> know if you've heard of it, but it's called "A Handmaids Tale", Why
> would any English teacher assign a book that is so geared to women is
> beyond me. What a great way to turn off guys to literature.
>
kind of a science fiction/Brave New World story. There are
men and women who get killed in it for breaking the rules,
and both sexes have to live in fear. There are discussions
and longing about people who have made it to the Free Zone.
Is it not possible for men to see themselves in a scenario like
this? I'd think a story about a rigidly controlled way of life and
social engineering would generate a lot of good class
discussion. If women are expected to read books that have
male characters, why can't men read books that have mostly
female characters? It's certainly not some sappy love story.
Lynne
Cheryl Isaak
Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
Lucky you, fewer of that "breed" there than here. Here, you'd better look
like you can afford it or it gets weird. A friend went to a concert, in nice
clothes but definitely not high priced grab. Lots of loud whispers of
letting the "great unwashed" in and drinks careless sloshed.
Cheryl
Ericka Kammerer
> Lucky you, fewer of that "breed" there than here. Here, you'd better look
> like you can afford it or it gets weird. A friend went to a concert, in nice
> clothes but definitely not high priced grab. Lots of loud whispers of
> letting the "great unwashed" in and drinks careless sloshed.
Well, I'm sorry to hear of such clods, but honestly,
I wouldn't let them stop me from going. But then, I'm a
contrary sort ;-) I'd probably enjoy provoking them ;-)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Dianne Lewandowski
> First, I said I didn't want to got to the classical events, I didn't want
> the local nouveau "cultured" looking down their collective noses at ME. Of
> course they'd be looking down their noses at the students, the senior
> citizens and anyone else not chic.
Nouveau cultured: those new to cultural things without a deep background.
Why would they look down their "collective" noses at anybody? There
have ALWAYS been those who looked down their noses. Rich groups of
people look down their noses at other rich groups of people just as
easily as they look down their noses at those of lesser income or
status. Some poor and/or under educated people look down their noses at
anybody who lives even slightly better than they do, or are slightly
better educated.
It works both ways.
> But it is true that the local "opera house" has a dress code that includes
> ties and no jeans and designates "formal nights".
Thank goodness there are some areas still left in the world where one
dresses up and has manners of some degree or another. It seems THAT is
what is bothering you?
You might enjoy the experiences of Meadowbrook in the Detroit area.
Summer concerts, including arias, and everyone sits on the lawn, lays on
a blanket, brings their picnic basket, and generally dresses the way
they want. Top-notch performers and performances.
Dianne
Cheryl Isaak
Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
She's a sensitive sort; it would bother me less, but it would diminish the
pleasure of the evening.
Cheryl
Cheryl Isaak
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
> Cheryl Isaak wrote:
>> First, I said I didn't want to got to the classical events, I didn't want
>> the local nouveau "cultured" looking down their collective noses at ME. Of
>> course they'd be looking down their noses at the students, the senior
>> citizens and anyone else not chic.
>
> Nouveau cultured: those new to cultural things without a deep background.
No with no background but go because all the "important" people do.
> Why would they look down their "collective" noses at anybody? There
> have ALWAYS been those who looked down their noses. Rich groups of
> people look down their noses at other rich groups of people just as
> easily as they look down their noses at those of lesser income or
> status. Some poor and/or under educated people look down their noses at
> anybody who lives even slightly better than they do, or are slightly
> better educated.
No - they don't see it as necessary. And trying to cram it down their
throats doesn't work. Town and Gown issues are as old as the original
colleges.
>
> It works both ways.
>
>> But it is true that the local "opera house" has a dress code that includes
>> ties and no jeans and designates "formal nights".
>
> Thank goodness there are some areas still left in the world where one
> dresses up and has manners of some degree or another. It seems THAT is
> what is bothering you?
No! I don't care for the attitude of the others attending. And requiring a
dress code is fine, but it does exclude many who just don't own the clothes.
That is it own form of elitism.
>
> You might enjoy the experiences of Meadowbrook in the Detroit area.
> Summer concerts, including arias, and everyone sits on the lawn, lays on
> a blanket, brings their picnic basket, and generally dresses the way
> they want. Top-notch performers and performances.
>
Sorry, Detroit is not high on my list of must see places. I haven't been to
Tanglewood or the DeCordava in years, too expensive to sit on the cold
ground. Sorry, old bones.
Cheryl
Dianne Lewandowski
>>There have ALWAYS been those who looked down their noses. Rich groups of
>>people look down their noses at other rich groups of people just as
>>easily as they look down their noses at those of lesser income or
>>status. Some poor and/or under educated people look down their noses at
>>anybody who lives even slightly better than they do, or are slightly
>>better educated.
To which Cheryl Isaak replied:
> No - they don't see it as necessary. And trying to cram it down their
> throats doesn't work. Town and Gown issues are as old as the original
> colleges.
I'm sorry. Who doesn't see it as necessary. If you meant poor people
don't find it necessary, guess again. And who is trying to cram
anything down anyone's throat?
You know, it sounds as though you're practising reverse elitism.
I'm really sorry to hear that you live in a society that is more monied
than you, more comfortable with dressing up, and that seems to be
causing you some angst. I really have suffered the reverse where I
live: if you don't wear a Packer jacket, put ugly running shoes on your
feet, live in jeans and sweatshirts, then you are suspect. Doesn't
bother me. I wear nice slacks, blouses, sweaters, shoes.
> No! I don't care for the attitude of the others attending. And requiring a
> dress code is fine, but it does exclude many who just don't own the clothes.
> That is it own form of elitism.
I have borrowed many a nice outfit in my lifetime to be able to attend
an event when I had nothing appropriate to wear. Or, bought one new
outfit and kept it for special occasions. Wore it often. And I mean
for years. One does what one has to do. Most are too busy to notice
you. Those that do aren't worth your trouble. There are those "types"
in any group, rich or poor. Since you'll likely never cross paths
again, who cares? I'm truly sorry you are/were treated so poorly at
these events - so much so that you call the "event" shabby and useless
rather than point to those that are the real cause of the problem: the
idiots who treat you shabbily and with disdain. There is a difference.
This is one of those "moral" and "ethical" things that need to be
addressed in our educational system and in our homes. Bad manners is
treating others with disrespect and disdain - whether or not you have money.
Dianne
mickey
> Remember, I live on the East Coast in the middle a region filled with the
> universities of New England. Definitely a "dress code" - shabby preppy
> clothes are more acceptable than pressed K-Mart specials.
> Cheryl
>
I had to LOL when I read this, since it summed up some of my feelings
exactly. Having moved from Madison, WI to the suburbs of Boston, MA
(Cheryl, we're practically neighbors!), I was in for quite a shock by
what people wore to the *mall* here. I usually do my shopping on
weekends, and since I wear nice clothes to work all week, I'm usually in
jeans and sweatshirts/T-shirts on the weekends (need time for laundry,
after all). The looks I would get when I was shopping since I wasn't in
the latest style or the nicest clothes... Well, it was quite amazing!
Didn't make me change what I was wearing, but we when we were buying our
house we did move to a different suburb that was more our "pace" - where
we could (not incidently) actually afford a house. Anyway, I guess I
understand what Cheryl is saying, and I can absolutely understand how it
wouldn't make for an evening enjoyable. I enjoy getting gussied up as
much as the next girlie girl, but to have to endure rude behaviour is
sometimes more than I want to deal with in my limited free time.
Along the lines of this thread, which I've been reading with interest, I
read an interesting article on the 'net today:
http://alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17576
While I don't agree with everything the author writes, and while I do
thing the article is noticably biased, he does make a few points that
have been stewing in my mind for a while but I couldn't quite
articulate. The article has certainly made me think... well, I'm still
thinking about it. Just thought I'd throw that into the mix... (Yes, I
am, in fact, a troublemaker, ;-)
--Mickey
Mansfield, MA
to reply, remove "nospam"
mickey18385 at yahoo dot com
Meredith
next month. There's this one phrase where the sopranos just screech! I
like the rest of it ok, but...
Meredith
Ericka Kammerer wrote:
> Seanette Blaylock wrote:
>
>
>> My major difficulties with opera are the language barrier [hard to
>> follow the plot when I can't understand what they're saying] and the
>> pain factor when the sopranos start in [I'm serious. Opera sopranos
>> can hit notes that are physically painful to me].
>
>
>
> Don't you just wonder how the heck they stand it
> themselves? ;-) I play flute, so I'm used to the really
> high notes, but I can't imagine producing them with my
> own *body*! Of course, vocally I can't carry a tune in
> a bucket with a lid, so I have a lot of admiration for
> vocalists.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ericka
>
>
Meredith
both universities I've been at have been quite good, with tickets under $10.
Meredith
Meredith
see if they need ushers. Almost all community groups will let you see
the performance for free.
Meredith
Karen C - California wrote:
> In article <BC2C6619.2B06B%chery...@adelphia.net>, Cheryl Isaak
> <chery...@adelphia.net> writes:
>
>
>>>Turn on the radio. Every Saturday, there's the Texaco Metropolitan Opera
>>>broadcast, which is free.
>>
>>You're lucky - Saturdays here are talk shows or the folk/Celtic programs.
>>There is a classical station, but I'd swear it only plays the same few
>>things over and over.
>
>
> KXPR webcasts (www.csus.edu/npr), as does WMUH
> (http://www.muhlenberg.edu/wmuh/), both of which run the TexMet. The MetOp
> website has a list of stations and times, so just surf around till you find one
> with a webcast.
>
> Forgot to mention "your local college" as a convenient source of inexpensive
> culture. City College does plays every semester, CRC is actually the home to a
> drama competition. Most colleges have orchestras, choirs, etc. Some have art
> galleries.
>
> Call the college(s) and get on the Music Dept, Art Dept, Drama Dept and Chapel
> mailing lists, and you'll have culture out the yin-yang, most of it free or
> just a few bucks. "In season", when the senior music majors had to put on a
> recital, we had several performances a week. I can't play for diddly, but I
> can read music, so I was on the Music Dept list as a page-turner for the
> keyboard recitals, and did quite a few. Will work for coffee-and-cake :)
>
> Establish ties with the various departments and you can get cheap bus trips out
> of the immediate area. Once all the French students had had the opportunity to
> sign up for the trip to NYC for a French opera, the rest of the seats on the
> bus were put up for "the college community at large", meaning not only
> professors, but their friends/relatives/neighbors..... We also had a weekly
> lecture series -- sometimes our professors, sometimes guest lecturers of note,
> always educational, and always free.
>
> My local ethnic society puts on a number of cultural events every year. Once a
> month, there's a lecture. In two weeks is a concert by the chorus, and another
> in February. March has Springfest. Costs me $15 a year to be a member and get
> the newsletter/calendar, but most events are free. If it's not *your* ethnic
> group, it's usually no problem to find someone who can enlighten you to the
> gist of the songs, why there's a filthy chimney sweep wandering around (good
> luck), what IS this stuff on my plate?! We loooooooooove teaching kids about
> our culture and history.
>
> Network -- someone in your social circle knows someone whose brother plays in
> the Backstreet Bagpipers, or whose preacher's in-laws run the youth orchestra.
> A good friend of mine is in the Jazz Society; you tell me what variety of music
> you want to hear, and after next Sunday's meeting, he'll have phone numbers for
> you for classical, brass, you name it -- musicians flock together, and the jazz
> band fiddler may be married to the conductor of Tuba Christmas, or to the lady
> who teaches Irish step dancing.
>
> http://www.spebsqsa.org/ will connect you to a barbershop chorus near you --
> again, even if BSQ is not your idea of music, some of their singers will know
> about Sing-it-Yourself Messiah or madrigals, because they do both. Once you
> put the word out that you're looking for free concerts, you'll hear about more
> than you have time for, but it's not something most of us will tell you upfront
> "Hi, I'm Karen, and if you want to hear Canterbury Tales, my library is
> reciting it next Saturday".
>
>
Meredith
Museum of Fine Arts for the students in the special art program (which
wasn't hard to get in, because I did and I'm no artist).
Meredith
Cheryl Isaak wrote:
> No - read what I said further down - I don't think operas, plays or art
> museums are appropriate for trips for students under the age of 15 or 16.
> Some emotional maturity is needed. There is a better way to do it for the
> younger students.
> Cheryl
>
Meredith
and says that pretty much anything without holes in it is acceptable.
There's a wide variation in what people wear.
Meredith
Ericka Kammerer
> Ooh! Forgot to mention ushering before! Contact the local groups and
> see if they need ushers. Almost all community groups will let you see
> the performance for free.
Oh, I forgot about that too! I used to usher so
I could see the shows for free. What a great deal that
was!
Best wishes,
Ericka
Karen C - California
<Merim...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Forgot to mention ushering before! Contact the local groups and
>see if they need ushers. Almost all community groups will let you see
>the performance for free.
Not only ushering ... I had free "season tickets" to the Symphony by staffing
the information table just before the concerts and at intermission. I never
knew where I'd be sitting till 7:58, when the sales manager checked with the
box office and brought back two tickets. One evening, we were Front Row,
Center -- Mr. & Mrs. Gotbucks couldn't make it, and we couldn't possibly have a
guest conductor look down into two empty seats directly at his feet. :)
All I had to do was sit on my butt and hand out brochures. I wasn't allowed to
take money or credit card numbers, just be charming, and if someone was
enthused about buying anything, pass them off to the ticket manager.
Got my toddler godson and his dad in for free because they were willing to come
early to assemble programs. Yes, even a child can stuff a half-page flyer into
a pre-folded program, and he did as many as some of the adults.
--
Finished 12/14/03 -- Mermaid (Dimensions)
WIP: Angel of Autumn, Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, Guide the Hands (2d
one)
Paralegal - Writer - Editor - Researcher
http://hometown.aol.com/kmc528/KMC.html
Olwynmary
>read an interesting article on the 'net today:
>http://alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17576
Hey, another Alternet reader!!!! Hi Mickey!!
Olwyn Mary in New Orleans.
Linda D.
<dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
>My mother didn't like that "stuff" either. Thank the gods I had
>grandparents, a father, aunts, uncles and teachers and schools who
>insisted upon it and surrounded me with it. I'll bet you were never
>exposed to it. Or that your family said: "Classical music? Yuck!
>Hate the stuff!" That's very common. As is the notion that it only
>belongs to those uppity ups who dress up in tuxes and gowns. That is
>called a cultural war. A totally slanted view. One needn't be rich or
>uppity to enjoy the richness of finer culture.
...actually I was exposed to opera at a very early age. A
very close friend of my Mom's listened to opera all the time, and my
best friend's parents also listened to opera. I didn't like it right
from the start. I simply don't like the sound...it hurts my ears.
take care, Linda :)
Vancouver Island, bc.ca :) (remove 'nospam' to reply)
See samples of my work at: www.members.shaw.ca/deugau
Jan Lennie
Hall which are so well attended that they have been broadcasting them
simultaneously in big parks around the UK and outside the hall on giant
screens for those that can't get to them . On the last night of 'The Proms'
is the most fantastic party atmosphere - the audience joins in and are
dressed in everything from pearls and evening wear to jeans and cagoules .
Most wear silly hats and the musicians and singers seem to really enjoy
themselves too . I would dearly love to go one day but until then have to
content with watching on TV or listening on the radio.
Jan
"Meredith" <Merim...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bua7h7$f11t7$2...@ID-80745.news.uni-berlin.de...
Cheryl Isaak
On 1/16/04 6:06 PM, in article bu9qug$f853n$1...@ID-164987.news.uni-berlin.de,
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
> <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
>>> There have ALWAYS been those who looked down their noses. Rich groups of
>>> people look down their noses at other rich groups of people just as
>>> easily as they look down their noses at those of lesser income or
>>> status. Some poor and/or under educated people look down their noses at
>>> anybody who lives even slightly better than they do, or are slightly
>>> better educated.
>
> To which Cheryl Isaak replied:
>
>> No - they don't see it as necessary.
As opposed to basic skills - like reading!
>And trying to cram it down their
>> throats doesn't work. Town and Gown issues are as old as the original
>> colleges.
>
> I'm sorry. Who doesn't see it as necessary. If you meant poor people
> don't find it necessary, guess again.
> And who is trying to cram
> anything down anyone's throat?
You have "sounded" like you were trying to bring culture to the backwoods
and they said no thank or just plain no.
>
> You know, it sounds as though you're practising reverse elitism.
>
> I'm really sorry to hear that you live in a society that is more monied
> than you, more comfortable with dressing up, and that seems to be
> causing you some angst.
>I really have suffered the reverse where I
> live: if you don't wear a Packer jacket, put ugly running shoes on your
> feet, live in jeans and sweatshirts, then you are suspect. Doesn't
> bother me. I wear nice slacks, blouses, sweaters, shoes.
Then you are living in a place were you are dressed outside the norm. So
what, how does the librarian or the clerk at town hall dress for work.
>
>> No! I don't care for the attitude of the others attending. And requiring a
>> dress code is fine, but it does exclude many who just don't own the clothes.
>> That is it own form of elitism.
>
> I have borrowed many a nice outfit in my lifetime to be able to attend
> an event when I had nothing appropriate to wear.
Sorry, I will not "borrow" clothes. Tacky tacky.
> Or, bought one new
> outfit and kept it for special occasions. Wore it often. And I mean
> for years. One does what one has to do.
Why bother
I don't need a dress hanging in the back of my closet for a year or two
between outings.
> Most are too busy to notice
> you. Those that do aren't worth your trouble. There are those "types"
> in any group, rich or poor. Since you'll likely never cross paths
> again, who cares? I'm truly sorry you are/were treated so poorly at
> these events - so much so that you call the "event" shabby and useless
> rather than point to those that are the real cause of the problem: the
> idiots who treat you shabbily and with disdain. There is a difference.
> This is one of those "moral" and "ethical" things that need to be
> addressed in our educational system and in our homes. Bad manners is
> treating others with disrespect and disdain - whether or not you have money.
>
No - I said I had better things to do with my money and time, read, listen
to music, play with the kids, buy stash or go out to a restaurant for a
great meal or go to the local zoos or museums.
AND - the school has no business teaching manners - that is the parents job.
Cheryl
Cheryl Isaak
On 1/16/04 8:36 PM, in article xk0Ob.82283$xy6.141366@attbi_s02, "mickey"
<mickey183...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Cheryl Isaak wrote:
>
>> Remember, I live on the East Coast in the middle a region filled with the
>> universities of New England. Definitely a "dress code" - shabby preppy
>> clothes are more acceptable than pressed K-Mart specials.
>> Cheryl
>>
>
> I had to LOL when I read this, since it summed up some of my feelings
> exactly. Having moved from Madison, WI to the suburbs of Boston, MA
> (Cheryl, we're practically neighbors!), I was in for quite a shock by
> what people wore to the *mall* here. I usually do my shopping on
> weekends, and since I wear nice clothes to work all week, I'm usually in
> jeans and sweatshirts/T-shirts on the weekends (need time for laundry,
> after all). The looks I would get when I was shopping since I wasn't in
> the latest style or the nicest clothes... Well, it was quite amazing!
> Didn't make me change what I was wearing, but we when we were buying our
> house we did move to a different suburb that was more our "pace" - where
> we could (not incidently) actually afford a house. Anyway, I guess I
> understand what Cheryl is saying, and I can absolutely understand how it
> wouldn't make for an evening enjoyable. I enjoy getting gussied up as
> much as the next girlie girl, but to have to endure rude behaviour is
> sometimes more than I want to deal with in my limited free time.
Exactly!
I have better things to do.
And tell let me guess your original "Boston" locale - inside 128, Newton
Wellesley area perhaps?
>
> --Mickey
> Mansfield, MA
>
Hey that's near were I went to college and sort of close to where I grew
up!
Cheryl
Cheryl Isaak
LOL
Cheryl
On 1/16/04 9:26 PM, in article bua6k7$fgipo$2...@ID-80745.news.uni-berlin.de,
Cheryl Isaak
place on weekends any more (ask why off line).
Cheryl
On 1/16/04 9:34 PM, in article bua73q$f11t7$1...@ID-80745.news.uni-berlin.de,
Cheryl Isaak
disagree with the no jeans rule, but requiring formal wear.... Please.
Cheryl
On 1/16/04 9:42 PM, in article bua7h7$f11t7$2...@ID-80745.news.uni-berlin.de,
Dianne Lewandowski
> Along the lines of this thread, which I've been reading with interest, I
> read an interesting article on the 'net today:
> http://alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17576
> While I don't agree with everything the author writes, and while I do
> thing the article is noticably biased, he does make a few points that
> have been stewing in my mind for a while but I couldn't quite
> articulate. The article has certainly made me think... well, I'm still
> thinking about it. Just thought I'd throw that into the mix... (Yes, I
> am, in fact, a troublemaker, ;-)
What a very interesting read. Thanks, Mickey!!
Dianne
Dianne Lewandowski
> ...actually I was exposed to opera at a very early age. A
> very close friend of my Mom's listened to opera all the time, and my
> best friend's parents also listened to opera. I didn't like it right
> from the start. I simply don't like the sound...it hurts my ears.
Actually, for some reason, "opera" has become the operative word in this
thread. When I was speaking about the "finer" arts, I was including
many things, not just opera: ballet, orchestral works, piano duos,
chamber orchestras . . .
Dianne
Dianne Lewandowski
> AND - the school has no business teaching manners - that is the parents job.
Oh, so while your child is in school, it's okay to say nasty things,
bump people out of line, crumple up your neighbors paper, et al. These
are all "manners". I would hope that every school across the country is
telling children this is wrong-headed behavior.
Dianne
mickey
Cheryl Isaak wrote:
<snip>
>
> Exactly!
> I have better things to do.
> And tell let me guess your original "Boston" locale - inside 128, Newton
> Wellesley area perhaps?
>
Spot on, Cheryl! I really miss our neighbors in the duplex we both
rented, but that's about it!
>
>
>
>>--Mickey
>>Mansfield, MA
>>
>
>
> Hey that's near were I went to college and sort of close to where I grew
> up!
>
>
> Cheryl
>
--Mickey
mickey
Hi Olwyn!!
I must admit, while I do read Alternet occasionally, it's mostly when DH
points out interesting articles. Regardless, it's an interesting source
to find non-mainstream media views.
Cheryl Isaak
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
I suspect that "opera" rose to the top because it is the least accessible to
the "lay" person. You have to do your homework before an opera becomes
enjoyable at all; read the libretto, understand the "style" of music, etc.
Add the perceived melodrama and it just doesn't work for at least 50% of the
population.
Which is interesting because it was the popular music of it's heyday.
Everyone was singing it on the street.
An earlier comment about screeching sopranos made me think about my taste in
"pop" singers - 80% male and those women I do really enjoy tend to have
"deeper" voices. (also known as whiskey voiced)
Cheryl