copying charts
paulab
that here in the UK is that it is acceptable, and legal to copy a chart for
one's own use. I usually copy my charts so that there is one to cross the
stitches off on, and the original to follow for the back stitching. Doing
this, can mean less to carry around, and that if it is a favourite pattern,
I can use it again for my own use, eg 2 friends wedding samplers, I do not
think that the designers intend that one buys a copy for each of these
eventualities, as where would S.E.X. come in, and the enormous stashes of
charts we buy that we'll never have time to stitch even if we made it to
100+?
Paula
--
piglet's fan
Pat Porter
add a clause in my own design charts, saying that a working copy for the
owners own use is permitted, and pointing out that it is illegal to make
copies to sell or distribute.
Pat P. (UK)
East Anglian Xstitch Designs
http://homepages.tesco.net/~porter
Email: j.po...@dtn.ntl.com
Selling your crafts? Email me for free advertising space on my website.
Mirjam Bruck Cohen
your Charts or do not know if the charts i see are your [ SORRY MEA Culpa]
But like you , i might some times do a VEry only Private copy For MY use
only , and as i tend to cut those up afterwards or during work i assume
this is ok, i figured out long ago that If i Pay for the chart either when
it is in the Book or in the Mag I paid for , i could , Did I wish it and
not go crazy while doing it , Make it From The chart even a100
times over [ i mean the work itself] and this will not entitle me to rebuy
the pattern each time again .....
All this talk is very good for those of you Who actuall get your stuff
printed, But i find that copies of my own work has been sold lately , by
somebody who attended a lecture took apic of my work and now sold it as
pattern ,,, i stopped being angry about this , but still am not happy . A
coleague of mine goes as far as starting lectures with , saying aloud she
gives several moments for Copying , she claims , they do it anyway so at
least it will look OK !!!!
So if i do print out something for personal use I either destroy it or
glue it into my work book , by this eliminating Anybody else to work
from it .
mirjam
Fred Kuhn
I might have mentioned this once before but I think it is worth mentioning
again.
You made a very innocent remark about making 100 from a single purchased
design.
To a great degree this depends on the copyright law in the country you are
in. You might be able to do this and you might not.
There is a growing trend wherein people who copyright plans for building an
item, are now printing on the plans something to the effect that, the
purchaser may make one or two items from that set of plans and that is it.
I can not buy plans for a child's wagon today and make one for every child
in the city, even if I give them away free.
I think needlepoint and cross stitch designers will be close on the heels of
those who sell building plans in the not too distant future.
AND SO THEY SHOULD!
The photocopy-cats should just ask themselves, "Would I like someone copying
and selling one of my designs that I spent hundreds of hours putting
together". They would answer their own question, as to whether or not what
they are doing is moral or legal in short order.
I do not consider photocopying a design to make it large enough for me to
read , or convenient to use, illegal, nor would I consider someone else
doing that to one of my designs illegal, if I was in that business. I would
never sell one of these copies or keep the copy and sell the original. It is
just not kosher.
If you want I can e-mail a method that will make photocopy-cat versions of
origional design charts worthless (assuming my email gets through to you).
It takes a bit of time and you would have to determine if your creations are
worth the effort.
Happy stitching and designing,
Don't backstitch to e-mail just stitchit.
Fred Kuhn
Et in Arcadia Ego.
"Mirjam Bruck Cohen" <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote in message
news:Pine.SUN.3.96-heb-2.07.10...@actcom.co.il...
Gillian Trushel
still don't see why I can't make several items from the same chart. If
what you are saying is true, I would have to buy separate charts for
each item I make, and that doesn't make sense. If I want to make several
Christmas stocking for family members, or the same sampler for 3 good
stitching friends, I don't see why that would be prohibited. Is it
really?
Gillian
Fred Kuhn wrote:
>
>
> The photocopy-cats should just ask themselves, "Would I like someone copying
> and selling one of my designs that I spent hundreds of hours putting
> together". They would answer their own question, as to whether or not what
> they are doing is moral or legal in short order.
>
>
Deb Wise
over. I found a seashell design that was perfect for the design style of my
bathroom and stitched it on four towels and a wall hanging. As for photocopying
the patterns I've only had to do this recently with a design from one of the Dept
56 books. I had to enlarge the design 150% in order to see the symbols on the
chart. If you've ever seen any of the books and tried to read the patterns you'd
see why enlarging is necessary. Oh well, just my two cents... Deb Wise
*C*
> Reading all the debate on copying charts, my understanding, and certainly
> that here in the UK is that it is acceptable, and legal to copy a chart
for
> one's own use. >
> Paula
> --
I've just received a Mosey'n Me chart (this company is located in Texas)
and it was the first time that I could read this in a leaflet :
"Should you need to, this pattern may be photocopied to enlarge the graph
for your own personal use" (bigger than the title of the design)
Coralie
Fred Kuhn
to stop you.
I think you might even be morally correct in getting together with other
stitchers and making a couple of hundred to sell in order to raise funds for
your church or shul.
It would be nice if you advertised who the designer was and it would be even
nicer if you asked the designer for the ok first. Who knows maybe the
designer, would volunteer enough time to generate a new design just for your
purpose.
I might ask all copiers this question!!!!!!
If I do not have the talent to invision and create my own artistic design in
order that I may mass produce it and make money selling it. Do I have the
right to take YOUR DESIGN, which YOU have worked very hard to produce, copy
it, mass produce it, make money and deprive YOU the ability of make a
suitable living and possibly employee others?
If I have that right, please tell me where I can get some of YOUR DESIGNS so
I can copy them and make enough money to go on a holiday.
Or if that seems like asking a lot, can I copy one of YOUR DESIGNS and give
it to a friend? That way my friend and I can save a few lousy bucks which we
will use to drive all the way across the city to buy some DMC which is
selling at $0.03 a skein cheaper than in the LNS a half mile away. Of course
if there happens to be an error in the chart we will let my local LNS hear
about it in no uncertain terms.
If a child gets away with stealing cookies. It will probably get away with
stealing other people's works of art. Oh well, it was just a LITTLE THEFT,
nothing to get upset about.
TILL IT'S YOUR COOKIES!!!
Uptight and going for a walk.....
Don't backstitch to e-mail just stitchit.
Fred Kuhn
Et in Arcadia Ego.
"Gillian Trushel" <gtru...@home.com> wrote in message
news:38C3DA57...@home.com...
> I agree that photocopying and selling charts is reprehensible. But I
> still don't see why I can't make several items from the same chart. If
> what you are saying is true, I would have to buy separate charts for
> each item I make, and that doesn't make sense. If I want to make several
> Christmas stocking for family members, or the same sampler for 3 good
> stitching friends, I don't see why that would be prohibited. Is it
> really?
>
> Gillian
>
Lynne Murnane
<bksti...@icenter.net> wrote:
>Hi Mirjam
>I might have mentioned this once before but I think it is worth
mentioning
>again.
>
>You made a very innocent remark about making 100 from a single
purchased
>design.
>
>To a great degree this depends on the copyright law in the
country you are
>in. You might be able to do this and you might not.
>
times may we stitch from the same chart? When I buy a sewing
pattern, I can use it over and over (at least I *think* I can). I
cannot do this with a handwork pattern?
Is there a written or understood limit on the number of times
I can stitch the same item? I really don't think people want to
stitch the same thing over and over. Part of the fun is getting
to new projects. But what if I want each member of my family to
get the same gift?
Lynne
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Carol99G
>chart.
That's why I sometimes end up copying charts. I would rather have the eyes I
had ten years ago, though.
Deb Wise
things that you have to get written permission from the designer before you do
it. If you are making three or four of the same design(like for coordinating
linens for a bathroom) and it is for your own private use then that is alright.
I would imagine that it is by now understood that copying for sale or for
someone else's use is not right. Making an enlargement copy or a working copy(of
a pattern you have paid for) for your own use is ok if there are no prohibitions
made by the designer. The key phrase here is 'for your own use'. I think most
everyone here knows that making a copy of a pattern for a friend, or making
several hundred for distribution are both illegal uses of copyrighted
materials. I think that most people are basically honest and don't intend to
steal ideas from others. As evidenced here when a designer makes it clear that
she does not want working copies made of her designs but is willing to replace a
messed up copy with a new one upon return of the old copy,everyone here is
willing to make the effort to honor the wishes of the artist. We also admit to
making working photocopies of charts because we are only making the charts
easier to work from, not because we intend to distribute the works of others as
our own. I see here in this group a lot of basically honest people who just
want to enjoy their craft without the frustration of a chart they can't read.
Well enough of my nattering on, everybody enjoy this glorious weather we're
having, Deb Wise
KDLark
"headache."
Like this: suppose I buy a chart at a "Friends of the Library" sale. It has
obviously been worked. I use the chart (and a lovely sampler it is). Then I
hand it on to my daughter. She makes the sampler. Seems fair to me, but I
suppose someone back in the past lost some money...
Or! I buy a magazine because there's something in it I want to make. My
daughter sees something else in the magazine she wants to make. Does she have
to buy her own magazine? Or is it okay if she makes her chart and I make mine?
The magazine does lose money this way -- maybe more if she makes the same
thing I did.
And! Is there a difference if she makes a copy of the magazine page instead of
borrowing it while she makes her project?
It drives me nuts, thinking about these things. In the case of magazines, so
far I don't buy two copies.
However, I would never buy a pattern, make it several times, then sell each
one, either.
Perhaps I am wrong, but making a pattern several times because you like it and
want to use it, like the matching fingertip towels I made for my mother once,
is different from making it several times to sell it. Consider this: if I
made a whole mess of shell fingertip towels and gave them away to friends,
might not someone see them, want to know who the designer was and generate
another sale for the designer?
Because if I had to buy a new "shell fingertip towel" pattern everytime, I darn
straight wouldn't make them at all.
I don't know the answers -- ethical or legal -- but it's interesting to hear
the arguments and wrestle with my conscience over this.
Katrina L.
Marilyn Leavitt Imblum
You may stitch a chart 1,000 times if you have the fingers left to do
it.You can give them away as gifts or donate to church functions. But
if you sell a finished piece you must have purchsed a chart for each one
sold. That's how it works.
Marilyn
wal...@midwest.net
comes from doing other needlework before cross stitch. For instance,
if you buy a booklet of crocheted snowflakes, I think it is assumed
that a fair use of this would be to make enough for your tree. If you
then made matching ones for perhaps your children's trees, you would
still be under fair use.
Seldom does it come up that I wish to make a design over and over -
I'd rather move on to something different and new. I'm more likely to
make something by the same designer (I've cornered the market on
Vermillion Stitchery) than to redo a chart. The exception would be
rare and only for a family member. I believe this to be fair use.
The area I find fuzzy is when you donate to a church bazaar. It is
for charity and YOU are not profiting. Having worked a few of these
bazaars, I'd have to say selling the completed items didn't lose a
sale for the chart designer because the biggest majority of hand
crafted items we sold were sold to non-stitchers who would never buy a
chart for any reason.
I keep all the charts I've ever purchased and a personal stitchers
album of photos of my projects. I've never had anyone ask to borrow a
chart because I'm the only one who cross stitches but I'd be hard
pressed to tell my 80 year old mother "no" <VBG> Moni
Liz /cozit
Marilyn Leavitt Imblum wrote:
>
>
> You may stitch a chart 1,000 times if you have the fingers left to do
> it.You can give them away as gifts or donate to church functions. But
> if you sell a finished piece you must have purchsed a chart for each one
> sold. That's how it works.
Same goes for any sewing pattern out there, btw....even if you've
altered the pattern, but it is still recognizable.
-Liz
gyeo
>
> You may stitch a chart 1,000 times if you have the fingers left to do
> it.You can give them away as gifts or donate to church functions. But
> if you sell a finished piece you must have purchsed a chart for each one
> sold. That's how it works.
> Marilyn
I appreciate the reasons and justice of Marilyn's statement but,
I was wondering ..................
Just how would you check or monitor that?
Gay
Maidenhead
England
Pat Gonzales
<murnane...@my-dejanews.com.invalid> wrote:
> Well, you have certainly raised an interesting issue. How many
> times may we stitch from the same chart? When I buy a sewing
> pattern, I can use it over and over (at least I *think* I can).
I think dress patterns can be used over and over.... Commercial craft
patterns have the printed restriction that you have to buy as many patterns
as items that you sell. How many craft stitchers follow this edict, I'm not
sure, and I don't know how the pattern companies would go about policing
this. I guess it's the same as needlework patterns......
Pat G.
X/USA-KY/-/-/-/- :-(/X/S/:-P~/L/G-/W+/D/M/B+/b/R?/S/K/E+/C+/J/Richard Dean
Anderson, Suzanne Brockmann & John Grisham/Peeps!
Michael F. Parenteau
gyeo wrote in message <38C4C4F5...@nortelnetworks.com>...
It's easy, its called morals, ethics, and your conscience.
MFP
Deb from ToonTown
If it's done once or twice it's not to hard to remain unnoticed. If you
get into commercial production it's much bigger and easier to spot.
Deb B
--
~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
You're not going crazy. You're going sane...in a crazy world!
The Tick
Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here.
As Good as it Gets
~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
Deborah Pesa
>get into commercial production it's much bigger and easier to spot.
>Deb B
>
and I'm sure those are the ones that the designers are really worried about.
Deborah Pesa - New York City
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Haven/1646
WIP: Flora-StitchWorld, A Midsummer Night's Fairy - Mirabilia, Wee Scottie -
Heart in Hand
Dogs laugh, but they laugh with their tails. - Max Eastman
gyeo
> gyeo wrote in message <38C4C4F5...@nortelnetworks.com>...
> >Marilyn Leavitt Imblum wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> You may stitch a chart 1,000 times if you have the fingers left to do
> >> it.You can give them away as gifts or donate to church functions. But
> >> if you sell a finished piece you must have purchsed a chart for each one
> >> sold. That's how it works.
> >> Marilyn
> >
> >I appreciate the reasons and justice of Marilyn's statement but,
> >I was wondering ..................
> >Just how would you check or monitor that?
> >
> >Gay
> >Maidenhead
> >England
> >
>
> It's easy, its called morals, ethics, and your conscience.
>
> MFP
It was not the integrity of stitchers that I was questioning - rather
the impracticability of enforcing such legislation
Gay
Maidenhead
England
CROMETTHI
>
>But I
>> still don't see why I can't make several items from the same chart. If
>> what you are saying is true, I would have to buy separate charts for
>> each item I make, and that doesn't make sense. If I want to make several
>> Christmas stocking for family members, or the same sampler for 3 good
>> stitching friends, I don't see why that would be prohibited. Is it
>> really?
I really don't see why designers would try to prohibit you from using a chart
that you had purchased from them to make as many of the items as you have the
ambition to make (you probably wouldn't make too many of the same design; too
boring.) Besides how could they enforce it--send someone to each and every
customer's house to check up on them? As far as I am concerned the same
applies to making a photocopy for your own use, which is something I haven't
felt the need to do so far, but not because I'm afraid of the photocopy police.
Ione
Richard
>>Gillian Trushel wrote:
>>> still don't see why I can't make several items from the same chart. If
>>> what you are saying is true, I would have to buy separate charts for
>>> each item I make, and that doesn't make sense. If I want to make several
>>> Christmas stocking for family members, or the same sampler for 3 good
>>> stitching friends, I don't see why that would be prohibited. Is it
>>> really?
Just in case you missed it, the point is you can make as many finished
pieces from the same chart as you want. And give them away. But if
you are selling the finished pieces, then you are supposed to purchase
a chart for each one sold.
>I really don't see why designers would try to prohibit you from using a chart
>that you had purchased from them to make as many of the items as you have the
>ambition to make (you probably wouldn't make too many of the same design; too
>boring.) Besides how could they enforce it--send someone to each and every
>customer's house to check up on them?
>Ione
There are lots of laws that don't get enforced, 'let your conscience
be your guide', 'do unto others', 'put yourself in the designers
shoes', etc, etc.
Rg
Marilyn Leavitt-Imblum
If as has happened a stitcher sees one of my designs done as a Christmas
card, they will usually send it to me. I reimburse them for the cost of
the item and their shipping charges to send it to me and I send them
some free designs. I then contact my lawyers who send letters to the
publishers reminding them of the legalities of copying someones
copyrighted work. Depending on the response it goes on from there. The
usual out of court settlement is the cost of a chart for each one
reproduced.
This law applies to everyone....I have to say it applies to everyone.
If I make an exception then I lose my copyright. Grammies who make 20
little bookmarks to sell at the Church benefit are just as illegal as
the jerks who made the greeting cards. Now...anyone who has any sense of
who I am and what I hold dear to me can easily figure out the size of
the Swat Team I send to Grammy's house and the handcuffs I use as she is
dragged kicking and screaming to be locked up for years and oh yes I'll
make sure she loses her home and becomes a bag lady.
There is also the person who resells copies of my designs regularly
online and when I speak to her, requesting her to stop, she laughs in my
face and says "sue me" Once I am faced with this attitude I just turn it
over to the lawyers and forget about it. They will do what is legal and
I won't be upset about it because I'm working on an angel and have
better music to listen to.
Make copies of this one folks because I'm tired of rewriting the rules
for those who can't make common sense out of this business. I'm trying
to protect my work from the thieves who want to make big profits from
what I have made. If every designer was as vocal as I am (and they would
be if they only knew how much royalties they lose) "womens work" would
have the respect it deserves.
Artists would be paid the full value of their work instead of the
pennies that are thrown to them from publishers. If you are selling your
work to a publisher and can't afford to publish it yourself then contact
me.
Marilyn
Coleen
Nicely said like the lady I always knew you to be.
Love in Stitches,
Coleen
Lynne Murnane
<mar...@tiag.com> wrote:
> Make copies of this one folks because I'm tired of rewriting
the rules
>for those who can't make common sense out of this business. I'm
trying
>to protect my work from the thieves who want to make big profits
from
>what I have made.
And is where the crux of this whole discussion lies: in
distribution. Actually making a copy of a design is in an of
itself nothing; it's what you do with it afterwards that may or
may not deprive someone else of legitimate profit.
There are big thieves and there are small thieves. The big ones
are people who steal an image and distribute it without
permission for profit. The little ones are folks who copy
patterns and trade copies with each other, thereby depriving the
designer and copyright holder of the profits from the sale of the
pattern. (You can sell your pattern or give it away, but
trading them is like getting one for free.) Both practices cut
into the designer's or publisher's profits.
Making a working copy that you destroy doesn't cut into anyone's
profits and doesn't involve illegal distribution, but makes some
people uneasy because they feel it's a foot-in-the-door type of
thing.
You have adopted the most conservative approach, which is
perfectly legal. Other designers permit working copies. No
matter what, we should all remember to ask ourselves whether
trading or distributing would deprive someone else of profits.
If the answer is yes, then the answer is don't do it.
wol...@pacbell.net
<snip>
>pattern. (You can sell your pattern or give it away, but
>trading them is like getting one for free.) Both practices cut
>into the designer's or publisher's profits.
Just keeping things factual: copyright law does *not* forbid a person to trade a
purchased copyrighted object, any more than it forbids a person to sell or give
away that object, even though all three actions eliminate the profit that would
have accrued had an original been bought instead. Copyright law has to do with
copying. When you own a chart, you can legally sell it, trade it, give it away,
throw it away, make fans or confetti or little toy boats or airplanes of it,
grind it up with a little water and make paper with it, paper part of the
bathroom or line the bottom of the birdcage with it, etc.
Nan Evelyn
Lynne Murnane
<wol...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Just keeping things factual: copyright law does *not* forbid a
person to trade a
>purchased copyrighted object, any more than it forbids a person
to sell or give
>away that object, even though all three actions eliminate the
profit that would
>have accrued had an original been bought instead. Copyright law
has to do with
>copying. When you own a chart, you can legally sell it, trade
it, give it away,
>throw it away, make fans or confetti or little toy boats or
airplanes of it,
>grind it up with a little water and make paper with it, paper
part of the
>bathroom or line the bottom of the birdcage with it, etc.
>
>Nan Evelyn
>
Karen C - California
>bathroom ... with it
Hey, thanks for the idea! If I glue a chart to the wall, I can stitch while I
bubble bath! (I already stitch if I expect to take a while on the john.....)
Finished 2/24/2000 - Sweet 16 (Silver Lining)
WIP:Mermaid of the Pearls, Teen Creed, California Sampler, America the
Beautiful (Nimble Needle), various small things
Don't risk your on-line privileges! I forward all Spam to administration.
Charly
"Karen C - California" <kmc...@aol.com.LuvXS> wrote in message
news:20000310114125...@ng-ba1.aol.com...
Pat Porter
down just to check!!! LOL!
Pat P.
CROMETTHI
>On 09 Mar 2000 04:23:08 GMT, crom...@aol.com (CROMETTHI) wrote:
>
>>>Gillian Trushel wrote:
>
>>>> still don't see why I can't make several items from the same chart. If
>>>> what you are saying is true, I would have to buy separate charts for
>>>> each item I make, and that doesn't make sense. If I want to make several
>>>> Christmas stocking for family members, or the same sampler for 3 good
>>>> stitching friends, I don't see why that would be prohibited. Is it
>>>> really?
>
>Just in case you missed it, the point is you can make as many finished
>pieces from the same chart as you want. And give them away. But if
>you are selling the finished pieces, then you are supposed to purchase
>a chart for each one sold.
>
>>I really don't see why designers would try to prohibit you from using a
>chart
>>that you had purchased from them to make as many of the items as you have
>the
>>ambition to make (you probably wouldn't make too many of the same design;
>too
>>customer's house to check up on them?
>
>There are lots of laws that don't get enforced, 'let your conscience
>be your guide', 'do unto others', 'put yourself in the designers
>shoes', etc, etc.
>
>Rg
>
Rg, I think you missed the point of what we were saying. The whole thing began
when someone said they had heard that some designers were saying that a person
should buy a chart for each design they made NOT to sell and NOT to give away,
but To MAKE, period. Now I don't know if there was any truth to that rumor,
but maybe you can understand why we don't think that would be fair. I am not
talking about making items to SELL. That is another matter entirely. That is
more ambition than I would ever have anyway--it takes long enough to make them
for gifts and for myself. And I am nearsighted enough not to have to make a
personal copy to work from. So my conscience is quite clear on both counts.
Ione
wol...@pacbell.net
>Rg, I think you missed the point of what we were saying. The whole thing began
>when someone said they had heard that some designers were saying that a person
>should buy a chart for each design they made NOT to sell and NOT to give away,
>but To MAKE, period. Now I don't know if there was any truth to that rumor,
>but maybe you can understand why we don't think that would be fair.
One more time, as it seems to be still in doubt: If you're stitching to sell,
legally you need to buy a chart for each stitched item. If you are *not*
stitching to sell, you can stitch a design as many times as you want.
Nan Evelyn
Carol Jackson
does that come from then? Are they wrong to print this on the chart?
Carol.
Deb Wise
rule. Deb Wise
Liesch
> does that come from then? Are they wrong to print this on the chart?
>
> Carol.
I've seen that mentioned too. The folks who do the "Precious Moments"
charts have a notice on their leaflets that you can NOT sell the item you
stitch from the leaflet and there is one designer that claims you can not
legally sell a chart of hers that you have purchased. She makes no mention
as to if this is only true if you have stitched a copy of the chart or if it
applies whether you have used the chart or not. IMO -- none of these
comments are any more enforceable that a designer saying you can NOT enlarge
the chart. So far MLI is the only one I know who will enlarge a chart for
you if you can not see well enough to stitch from the original you
purchased. Ethics are fine, but like everything else in life, you can get
too carried away with them.
Rita Liesch
KDLark
>> But a Piglet one I bought said that I can only stitch once from it. Where
>> does that come from then? Are they wrong to print this on the chart?
I think this sounds like a Disney rule, also. Disney is very, very picky about
copyright -- they had a day care center paint over unauthorized characters on
on one of their playground walls once. (I believe Hanna-Barbera (sp?) then
gave the day care permission to use some of their characters in a public
relations move.)
I understand Disney's concern -- apparently they've even had trouble with
drawings of Disney characters in "compromising positions" being marketed!
There seems to be a difference when the characters in the chart are not the
designer's property -- I have a "story book characters" book that specifically
nixes selling things made using the charts (Beatrix Potter, Babar, et. al.).
It is probably a deal made with the original artist, their estate, and/or their
publishers.
I doubt the Piglet police will come after you though, unless you try to sell it
or paint it on your playground.
Katrina L.
Stephanie Peters
>That one sounds like more of a Disney rule than a general designer's copyright
>rule. Deb Wise
>
>Carol Jackson wrote:
>
>> But a Piglet one I bought said that I can only stitch once from it. Where
>> does that come from then? Are they wrong to print this on the chart?
The charts that say on them only to be stitched once are (so far as I know)
always those of images where the needlework company has licensed the
copyright from someone else, such as Disney. As the same companies have
other charts without the 'stitch once' restriction, I assume it must be a
condition imposed by the copyright owner. Under UK law (and maybe other
countries) the purchaser of such an item is bound by this condition, even if
it is hidden inside packaging.
Personally I'd never knowingly purchase such an item, and if I found I'd
acquired one because the condition was hidden inside wrappings, I'd take it
back. I very rarely stitch things twice, but consider it unreasonable to
be forbidden to do so. Unfortunately imposing unreasonable conditions is
usually quite legal.
"Never keep up with the Joneses. Drag them down to your level. It's cheaper." Quentin Crisp 1908 - 1999
Steph Peters, Manchester, England
email: delete REMOVE_NOSPAM from st...@sandbenders.demon.REMOVE_NOSPAM.co.uk
Tatting, lace & stitching page <http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/index.htm>
Teri George
wrote:
>> But a Piglet one I bought said that I can only stitch once from it. Where
>> does that come from then? Are they wrong to print this on the chart?
>I've seen that mentioned too. The folks who do the "Precious Moments"
>charts have a notice on their leaflets that you can NOT sell the item you
>stitch from the leaflet and there is one designer that claims you can not
>legally sell a chart of hers that you have purchased.
It's possible that the Piglet and Precious Moments claims are legal
(but it would take court cases to determine what is really true),
that's because those well-known characters might also be a trademark
as well as a copyrighted design (just like Mickey Mouse is).
Realize also that unless the design was published by someone like
Disney or Enesco (I think PM is Enesco) then the images used are being
*licensed* (payed for) and the 'designer' of the chart may simply be
passing on what they believe are the legal requirements for the usage
of the licensed, trademarked image.
(Confusing? You bet. But they've got a whole other set of rules that
they (the designer working with a special design like this) have to
follow to produce the product and you can't blame them for doing their
best not to get themselves into trouble.)
Teri ~~ http://www.craftsoft.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spring freebies are up at In the Realm of Dreams!
**Announcing two new design lines and the free, downloadable CraftGrid graph paper program**
Mirjam Bruck Cohen
ago whebn Charts were Mentioned In wills! or stolen as valuable items
..... seems they still are !!!!! mirjam
Teri George
Well, actually they are, if your design is well-accepted. If you're
good enough, the charted design alone could be worth up to $100,000
dollars or more in sales. And that doesn't count the additional
revenue that the actual design image (the art) could get from things
like stencils on toothbrush holders, or shower curtains, dinner
plates, or bed sheets -- you get the idea.
CROMETTHI
>began
>>when someone said they had heard that some designers were saying that a
>person
>>should buy a chart for each design they made NOT to sell and NOT to give
>away,
>>but To MAKE, period. Now I don't know if there was any truth to that rumor,
>>but maybe you can understand why we don't think that would be fair.
> <snip>
>
>One more time, as it seems to be still in doubt: If you're stitching to sell,
>legally you need to buy a chart for each stitched item. If you are *not*
>stitching to sell, you can stitch a design as many times as you want.
>
>Nan Evelyn
>
>
>
>
Then you're saying that the rumor was untrue, which is all we wanted to hear
Ione
StOvations
>good enough, the charted design alone could be worth up to $100,000
>dollars or more in sales. And that doesn't count the additional
>revenue that the actual design image (the art) could get from things
>like stencils on toothbrush holders, or shower curtains, dinner
>plates, or bed sheets -- you get the idea.
>
>
>Teri ~~ http://www.craftsoft.com
Well-said, Teri!
Unfortunately, this topic is commonly misunderstood but one I'd like to help
clarify. Suppose every person who purchased a chart were to stitch that
design. But then, after they've used it, they turn around and sell or trade it
for another such 'used' chart. In doing so, it takes the royalties away from
one to two designers who have every right to make a profit from their design.
And then, suppose a 'few' people buy ONE chart and stitch it many times over so
they can take them to their local crafts fair to sell. The actual designer
made only one sale in each of these instances, but someone else is gaining from
the hard work and talent it took to create that design. Many people even
consider that a trade is not a sale. That is not at all so; a trade is known
as a "barter". Sure, you may not be paid in monies, but if you are paid in any
means to where you are gaining something, whether it be another used chart or
something else, it IS a type of sale, which is NOT permissable under copyright
laws unless you have explicit written permission to do so from the copyright
holders.
Every time this happens, it takes away a profit that rightfully belongs to that
designer. If this happens on a regular basis, the designers cannot continue to
offer YOU the designs that you enjoy stitching. That is the bottom line of
what occurs when you choose not to abide by the copyright laws. And sure, some
people think that just one instance won't hurt. Well, many designers market
internationally and all those individual instances add up very quickly. Some
designers also market their artwork in other media, such as in pottery,
greeting cards, paintings, etc.
As publishers and designers, we are under no obligation to quote the laws
within our charts other than to publish the fact that our artwork is protected
by copyright. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse nor is the sad excuse that
"well, everyone else does it." Two wrongs don't make a right, let alone three
or more! As the owner of Stitchin' Ovations, it is incumbent upon me and also
my responsibility to protect the rights of the designers we publish. Granted,
we will not send the "cross-stitch police" out to your home for each and every
copyright violation--the fact of the matter is that I cannot possibly afford to
do so! Therefore, the best approach is to let you know what IS acceptable and
what isn't.
So, if you really love the designs by any one company or designer, no matter
who that company is, please respect their rights and their requests to follow
what they feel is acceptable as well as what is not. And sure, the laws can be
very confusing and complicated, but if you are in doubt, I strongly urge you to
write to the publishing company for whatever chart and ask if what your
intentions are would be all right or not. Therefore, when in doubt, please
ask!
I seriously doubt that any designers really want to have to be so hard-nosed
about copyright issues, but we are all too often put in the position where we
have no choice. We are in this business to provide quality products to the
consumers and would like to continue sharing our love for this art with you.
Best regards,
Melissa Fischer, Owner/Designer
Stitchin' Ovations
www.stitchin-ovations.com
Teri George
>I wrote:
>>Well, actually they are, if your design is well-accepted. If you're
>>good enough, the charted design alone could be worth up to $100,000
>>dollars or more in sales.
>Suppose every person who purchased a chart were to stitch that
>design. But then, after they've used it, they turn around and sell or trade it
>for another such 'used' chart. In doing so, it takes the royalties away from
>one to two designers who have every right to make a profit from their design.
That may be true, Melissa, but let's not confuse people here. It is
perfectly legal for them to trade or sell the charts that they've
purchased. A chart is just like a book and the owner may dispose of
it as they please.
>Sure, you may not be paid in monies, but if you are paid in any
>means to where you are gaining something, whether it be another used chart or
>something else, it IS a type of sale, which is NOT permissable under copyright
>laws unless you have explicit written permission to do so from the copyright
>holders.
Melissa, I don't want to contradict you but I'm afraid this is
incorrect. People *do* have the right to sell or trade a chart that
they've purchased.
Here is the quote from my previous post on this subject...
---------
>Below is the law as regards this kind of transfer:
>"Section 109 of the Copyright Law:
>Limitations on exclusive rights: Effects of transfer of particular copy or phonorecord.
>a) Not withstanding the provisions of Section 106(3), the owner of a particular copy
>or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such
>owner, is entitled, without authority of copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of
>the possession of that copy or phonorecord."
---------
>And sure, the laws can be
>very confusing and complicated, but if you are in doubt, I strongly urge you to
>write to the publishing company for whatever chart and ask if what your
>intentions are would be all right or not. Therefore, when in doubt, please
>ask!
Always a good suggestion.
CROMETTHI
>sell,
>> legally you need to buy a chart for each stitched item. If you are *not*
>> stitching to sell, you can stitch a design as many times as you want.
>>
>> Nan Evelyn
>
>
>But a Piglet one I bought said that I can only stitch once from it. Where
>does that come from then? Are they wrong to print this on the chart?
>
>Carol.
Carol, that is interesting--I thought that it was just a rumor that some
designers or companies said that. Which company or designer put this chart
out?
Your turn, Nan Evelyn
Ione
Teri George
>>But a Piglet one I bought said that I can only stitch once from it. Where
>>does that come from then? Are they wrong to print this on the chart?
>Carol, that is interesting--I thought that it was just a rumor that some
>designers or companies said that. Which company or designer put this chart
>out?
I'm not Nan, but the difference with this chart would be that Piglet
is a licensed character. The designer had to purchase the right to do
the design from the owner of the character. Because of that, the
design has limitations to it. The designer is simply spelling out the
limitations that they've been given due to the character being
licensed.
LL314158
>>>does that come from then? Are they wrong to print this on the chart?
>
>>Carol, that is interesting--I thought that it was just a rumor that some
>>designers or companies said that. Which company or designer put this chart
>>out?
>
>I'm not Nan, but the difference with this chart would be that Piglet
>is a licensed character. The designer had to purchase the right to do
>the design from the owner of the character. Because of that, the
>design has limitations to it. The designer is simply spelling out the
>limitations that they've been given due to the character being
>licensed.
>
>
>Teri ~~
hi..
I have been reading this thread for a couple of days now.. after you have
purchased the chart or kit.. how are they going to know how many times you
stitch it.. come to your house and watch you stitch.. ???? Send the stitching
police..?? this is really ridiculous.....
after you buy it it is yours.. nobody knows what you do with it... really... be
sensible.. LL
wal...@midwest.net
I recently bought the Leisure Arts leaflet called The Gang's All Here.
It has 27 designs of Disney characters. I think they made a very
clear statement:
"This product is intended solely for non-commercial home use. No
license has been granted to apply this product to decorated articles
which will thereafter be sold. Any such use is an infringement of the
copyright in the characters portrayed and is specifically prohibited."
This sounds like you may use it as often as you wish. It does sound,
to me, that you really cannot make these designs into products you
sell at church bazaars. I would assume you could make multiples to
give away, i.e. to a children's group or a pediatrics ward as long as
they are not sold in turn. If they are donated for such use, I think
I would check with Disney first if there will be a large number
involved.
It doesn't mention making working copies of the chart but that's
another issue. The charts are in color so they would be difficult
and/or expensive to copy anyway. Moni
Teri George
> I wrote:
>>I'm not Nan, but the difference with this chart would be that Piglet
>>is a licensed character. The designer had to purchase the right to do
>>the design from the owner of the character. Because of that, the
>>design has limitations to it. The designer is simply spelling out the
>>limitations that they've been given due to the character being
>>licensed.
> I have been reading this thread for a couple of days now.. after you have
>purchased the chart or kit.. how are they going to know how many times you
>stitch it.. come to your house and watch you stitch.. ???? Send the stitching
>police..?? this is really ridiculous.....
>after you buy it it is yours.. nobody knows what you do with it... really... be
>sensible.. LL
*grin* No one asked if it was sensible, LL. They just asked *why*
something was mentioned on the kit. The designer of the kit did
something that owner of Piglet required him/her to do in order for
them to produce that kit. And doing what is required of you *is*
sensible. (:
As to how many stitched versions someone makes from a kit, in reality
that's up to them. At that point, the stitcher has to make a choice
between what they know is legal, what they feel is moral, and what
they really want to do
Life is filled with those kinds of choices.
Carol Jackson
in the UK. And I say kits as we can not get any charts here for Disney
things they are all kits.
Carol.
CROMETTHI wrote:
>
> > One more time, as it seems to be still in doubt: If you're stitching to
> >sell,
> >> legally you need to buy a chart for each stitched item. If you are *not*
> >> stitching to sell, you can stitch a design as many times as you want.
> >>
> >> Nan Evelyn
> >
>
> >
> >But a Piglet one I bought said that I can only stitch once from it. Where
> >does that come from then? Are they wrong to print this on the chart?
> >
> >Carol.
>
> Carol, that is interesting--I thought that it was just a rumor that some
> designers or companies said that. Which company or designer put this chart
> out?
>
Ruth409028
legally you need to buy a chart for each stitched item. If you are *not*
stitching to sell, you can stitch a design as many times as you want.
Nan Evelyn>
If I want to stitch a chart a 2nd or 3rd time, I have to have a new chart,
because when I finish with it the first time, it is in pieces where the fold
lines were. Frances
Take Jacques out before replying.