Way O.T. --Diana's funeral procession questions
Storm
To anyone who may know about British traditions -- I had some questions
about Diana's funeral procession to Westminster Abbey.
One of the guards at the back of the gun carriage had what looked to be a
white flower on his bearskin hat. He was the guard at the rear left of the
carriage. At first I thought someone had thrown it there and it had stuck
to his hat accidentally, but when I saw a replay on TV later I noticed it
was there before he even came through the Kensington Palace gates. Was
this supposed to be there, do you think, or was he showing his own respect,
or what was it?
Also, There were six horses pulling the carriage and six soldiers in black
uniforms with gold trim. They would walk beside the horses for a while and
then next thing you'd notice the three on the left would be upon the horses
with saddles and blankets and the next time all six would be seated on the
horses pulling the carriage. All would have red blankets and saddles on.
The next time they'd show them, the horses would be riderless and
saddleless -- yet there was no sign of the blankets or saddles. As one who
has ridden, how would they get a saddle on a walking horse? and what was
the significance of them getting on and off as they repeated the "on-off"
sequence several times.
Any of our British friends have any answers? Just curious -- not trying to
be disrespectful to the lovely Princess Diana.
--
Lesley Diana Luke
lu...@netcom.ca
KPaules531
In article <01bcbc09$432bc200$9b4f...@lukes.netcom.ca>, "Storm"
<lu...@netcom.ca> writes:
>
>To anyone who may know about British traditions -- I had some questions
>about Diana's funeral procession to Westminster Abbey.
Since someone else had questions, I have one I'm curious about. When the
procession entered Westminster Abbey, they walked around a rectangle in the
floor that was surrounded by something red (flowers?). What is that spot?
Is it perhaps the burial site of someone?
As with Lesley, I am not being disrespectful - just curious.
JoAnn
Cory Cabana
That was the tomb of the un-known soilder, dating from WWI
KPaules531 wrote in article
<19970908125...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
NotMchTime
In article <19970908125...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
kpaul...@aol.com (KPaules531) writes:
>Since someone else had questions, I have one I'm curious about. When the
>procession entered Westminster Abbey, they walked around a rectangle in the
>floor that was surrounded by something red (flowers?). What is that spot?
>Is it perhaps the burial site of someone?
I'm not positive, but I believe it's the tomb of the unknown soldier.
Madeupagin
I've lost the FIRST post in this thread, but I want to know about the
horses too! So, we know about the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier -- but what
about the horses???
And, where did the pallbearers put their hats when carrying the coffin?
This has been bugging me since Saturday.
And, how long will the Union Jack fly at half mast? Is it still, in honor
of Princess Diana AND Mother Teresa or what? For one and not the other, or
is it back at full staff?
Tere
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for Noticing Me ~~ Eeyore
Gissiner
From the commentary on tv they said it was an "unknown soldier" type crypt
from I believe the First World War.
Carrie Lee
KPaules531 <kpaul...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970908125...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> In article <01bcbc09$432bc200$9b4f...@lukes.netcom.ca>, "Storm"
> <lu...@netcom.ca> writes:
>
> >
> >To anyone who may know about British traditions -- I had some questions
> >about Diana's funeral procession to Westminster Abbey.
>
> Since someone else had questions, I have one I'm curious about. When the
> procession entered Westminster Abbey, they walked around a rectangle in
the
> floor that was surrounded by something red (flowers?). What is that
spot?
> Is it perhaps the burial site of someone?
>
Pamela Ric
>Since someone else had questions, I have one I'm curious about. When the
>procession entered Westminster Abbey, they walked around a rectangle in the
>floor that was surrounded by something red (flowers?). What is that spot?
>Is it perhaps the burial site of someone?
>
>As with Lesley, I am not being disrespectful - just curious.
I do believe that is their "tomb to an unknown soldier".
Pamela R.
pame...@aol.com
Dave Coss
If I remember right it's their Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Something was
mentioned, too, about how Queen Elizabeth or the Queen Mum laid her wedding
bouquet on it and it has become a tradition for every royal bride since
then to do so.
Lori
KPaules531 <kpaul...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970908125...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> In article <01bcbc09$432bc200$9b4f...@lukes.netcom.ca>, "Storm"
> <lu...@netcom.ca> writes:
>
> >
> >To anyone who may know about British traditions -- I had some questions
> >about Diana's funeral procession to Westminster Abbey.
>
> Since someone else had questions, I have one I'm curious about. When the
> procession entered Westminster Abbey, they walked around a rectangle in
the
> floor that was surrounded by something red (flowers?). What is that
spot?
> Is it perhaps the burial site of someone?
>
> As with Lesley, I am not being disrespectful - just curious.
>
> JoAnn
>
N & M Couch
Storm <lu...@netcom.ca> wrote in article
<01bcbc09$432bc200$9b4f...@lukes.netcom.ca>...
> To anyone who may know about British traditions -- I had some questions
> about Diana's funeral procession to Westminster Abbey.
>
> One of the guards at the back of the gun carriage had what looked to be a
> white flower on his bearskin hat. He was the guard at the rear left of
the
> carriage.
The white plume was part of his uniform, probably designating his rank.
>
>There were six horses pulling the carriage and six soldiers in black
> uniforms with gold trim. They would walk beside the horses for a while
and
> then next thing you'd notice the three on the left would be upon the
horses
snip> The next time they'd show them, the horses would be riderless and
> saddleless <snip> what was the significance of them getting on and off
as they repeated the "on-off" sequence several times.
What you were seeing was different camera shots of the cortege as it moved
along. There were soldiers in black and gold who walked beside the horses-
trace bearers, and soldiers wearing the same uniforms who rode some of the
horses, some of the horses were riderless. No-one got on and off horses
during the procession, but the views seen on TV may have given that
impression.
HTH
MinNZ
Marie Lewis
In article <19970908163...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, Madeupagin
<madeu...@aol.com> writes
>And, where did the pallbearers put their hats when carrying the coffin?
>This has been bugging me since Saturday.
They were carried away by another soldier.
>
>And, how long will the Union Jack fly at half mast? Is it still, in honor
>of Princess Diana AND Mother Teresa or what? For one and not the other, or
>is it back at full staff?
It is now down. It was for Diana. It is the first time EVER that a
Union Jack has been flown at half mast from Buckingham Palace. The flag
that usually flies is the Royal Standard (like the one covering Diana's
coffin) and that is flown only when the sovereign is is residence. It
was a real departure from protocol, because the people demanded it.
Yesterday Tony Blair had a 4 hour meeting with the queen at BAlmoral to
talk about changes that are needed in royal protocol.
---
Marie
To reply via e-mail remove "spamblock"
KPaules531
In article <19970908163...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
madeu...@aol.com (Madeupagin) writes:
>And, where did the pallbearers put their hats when carrying the coffin?
>This has been bugging me since Saturday.
>
>And, how long will the Union Jack fly at half mast?
I saw another guardsman take their hats. I couldn't figure out why these
men were removing their hats until I watched them place the casket on their
shoulders. It made sense then.
Minor point - flags on land are flown at half-STAFF, on a ship at
half-MAST. I had a class in military etiquette when I was in basic
training (U.S. Army). I haven't misused that expression since.
And to those of you who answered my question about the Tomb of the Unknown
Soldier - thank you.
JoAnn
N & M Couch
KPaules531 <kpaul...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970908125...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> In article <01bcbc09$432bc200$9b4f...@lukes.netcom.ca>, "Storm"
> <lu...@netcom.ca> writes:
> Snip
> When the procession entered Westminster Abbey, they walked around a
rectangle in the floor that was surrounded by something red (flowers?).
What is that spot?
> Is it perhaps the burial site of someone?
>
You are right about it being a burial site. Its the tomb of the Unknown
Soldier, it was surrounded by red poppies, the traditional flower of
mourning for soldiers.
HTH
MinNZ
Mellissa Zillwood
Madeupagin wrote:
>
> I've lost the FIRST post in this thread, but I want to know about the
> horses too! So, we know about the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier -- but what
> about the horses???
About the horses: During the funeral of Queen Victoria, her casket
was carried by gun carriage drawn by horses. The horses bolted, so they
were unharnessed from it and naval ratings (naval seamen) pulled the
carriage the rest of the way. This is how it has been done for _State_
funerals since then. I feel that they had horses draw the gun carriage
because this was _not_ a State funeral. Regarding the three soldiers
who walked beside the horses on the right... I'm not entirely sure, but
it could be for two reasons. One, that it is a sign of respect and
bereavement to have riderless horses, and two, that it helps to better
calm and control the horses. You may want to ask a horse expert about
that one.
> And, where did the pallbearers put their hats when carrying the coffin?
> This has been bugging me since Saturday.
About the hats: The pallbearers were members of the Welsh Guard, of
which Diana was Colonel-in-Chief. There were eight Guardsmen bearing
the casket, and at least two others that escorted it into the Abbey.
When the gun carriage stopped in front of the Abbey, the 8 Guardsmen
removed their busbies and handed them off to other Guardsmen. I know
that men are not supposed to wear hats while in the presence of the
Queen, but it may also have been because they were entering a church, or
even the sheer weight of the hats.
>
> And, how long will the Union Jack fly at half mast? Is it still, in honor
> of Princess Diana AND Mother Teresa or what? For one and not the other, or
> is it back at full staff?
About the flag: The Union Jack is still at half-staff, and will
remain so for the rest of the week. This is being done as a sign of
mourning for Diana. At the end of the week, no flag will fly until the
Queen is in residence, at which time the Royal Standard will fly at full
staff.
I hope this answers your questions.
Mellissa
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Insert Witty Signature File Here
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mellissa Zillwood
An amendment to my post:
I just saw on the news that the Union Jack has been taken down from
Buckingham Palace, as the mourning period is now officially over. SOrry
for any confusion.
Trish Lavis
> What you were seeing was different camera shots of the cortege as it moved
> along. There were soldiers in black and gold who walked beside the horses-
> trace bearers, and soldiers wearing the same uniforms who rode some of the
> horses, some of the horses were riderless. No-one got on and off horses
> during the procession, but the views seen on TV may have given that
> impression.
The soldiers who rode the horses are called postilions. They ride (or
post) on horses pulling a burden to remove the necessity of having
someone drive the team from behind (not a good look for a large public
funeral). The postilion actually rides the horse he is on and has
control of the horse 'next door'. Each horse has a bit in its mouth and
on some occasions the postilions carry two sets of reins, one for each
horse. I (blow me down!) didn't think to look at what happened in this
case.
The horses' pace is controlled by the postilions, who ride by 'pressure
of leg', that is, speeding up and slowing down by shifting their weight
and leg pressure on the horse. The soldiers who were seen to 'accompany'
the horses had no function as far as the horses were concerned: they
were simply accompanying the cortege as a guard of honour.
The postilions dismounted at the Abbey because their job of propelling
the horses was over. They remounted when it was time to take the gun
carriage away.
Some of the English Riding and Horse-type books have excellent sections
on the uses and traditions of horses in ceremony. (My personal favourite
is the Drum Horse, who is always piebald and nearly always Irish).
Trish {|:-}
> HTH
> MinNZ
Trish Lavis
Madeupagin wrote:
>
> I've lost the FIRST post in this thread, but I want to know about the
> horses too! So, we know about the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier -- but > what about the horses???
The horses were Irish cobs, bred from the excellent Irish Hunter and
Great Irish Draught breeds and used extensively for military and
ceremonial purposes. Just looking at them, I'd guess they were all
around 16-16.2hh and utterly gorgeous!
Did you notice how the young one nearest the gun carriage (the one
without a postilion on board) played up the whole way? Those men
deserved a medal for keeping the animals in hand for that long, strained
distance. Also, did you notice that one of the lead pair reared up just
a tad as they came out the gate of Kensington Palace? Most people
wouldn't realise what a strain it would be for big, long-striding
animals like those to be kept at such a short stride over that distance.
The stamina and training of those horses must be just - just - words
fail me! (Not a common occurrence <G>)
The young Guardsmen who accompanied the coffin should have been named.
They deserve some kind of public accolade for discharging a difficult
and important duty under the world's eye. Those bearskin hats weigh a
lot!
Trish {|:-}
Shirley Walton
Cory Cabana <Cory_...@msn.com> wrote in article
<eTYd#9Fv8...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>...
> That was the tomb of the un-known soilder, dating from WWI
>
When the
> >procession entered Westminster Abbey, they walked around a rectangle in
the
> >floor that was surrounded by something red (flowers?). What is that
spot?
> >Is it perhaps the burial site of someone?
> >JoAnn
As Cory Cabana answered above, The rectangle everyone walked around is the
tomb of the unknown soldier and is in remembrance of all soldiers who died
in war. The red flowers are poppies - in remembrance of the poppies in the
fields of Flanders in WW1. Hope this extra info is of help.
Donna Martin
On 8 Sep 1997 16:31:41 GMT, madeu...@aol.com (Madeupagin) wrote:
>And, how long will the Union Jack fly at half mast? Is it still, in honor
>of Princess Diana AND Mother Teresa or what? For one and not the other, or
>is it back at full staff?
It was my understanding listening to the reporters here that the flag
was lowered after the Queen departed Buckingham Palace, and that it
was taken down completely just before she returned. It was only at
half staff for the funeral.
As for the horses, we watched the funeral for 5 hours here, as it
started at 5pm with the procession, and I did not see any of the
changes that have been mentioned. I did think it odd that only 3 of
the horses were ridden. As for the "flower" on the one hat, that was
a plume (feather), and I think that it was worn by the man in charge
of the Princess of Wales guards.
Donna
>
>
jenni percy
Storm wrote:
> To anyone who may know about British traditions -- I had some
> questions
> about Diana's funeral procession to Westminster Abbey.
>
> One of the guards at the back of the gun carriage had what looked to
> be a
> white flower on his bearskin hat. He was the guard at the rear left
> of the
> carriage. At first I thought someone had thrown it there and it had
> stuck
> to his hat accidentally, but when I saw a replay on TV later I noticed
> it
> was there before he even came through the Kensington Palace gates.
> Was
> this supposed to be there, do you think, or was he showing his own
> respect,
> or what was it?
>
> Also, There were six horses pulling the carriage and six soldiers in
> black
> uniforms with gold trim. They would walk beside the horses for a
> while and
> then next thing you'd notice the three on the left would be upon the
> horses
> with saddles and blankets and the next time all six would be seated on
> the
> horses pulling the carriage. All would have red blankets and saddles
> on.
> The next time they'd show them, the horses would be riderless and
> saddleless -- yet there was no sign of the blankets or saddles. As
> one who
> has ridden, how would they get a saddle on a walking horse? and what
> was
> the significance of them getting on and off as they repeated the
> "on-off"
> sequence several times.
>
> Any of our British friends have any answers? Just curious -- not
> trying to
> be disrespectful to the lovely Princess Diana.
>
> --
> Lesley Diana Luke
> lu...@netcom.ca
Lesley
I think you will find that the white plume in the soldiers hat indicated
his rank. Looking at the tape I would say he was probably an officer.
There were nine soldiers in black, four of them were riding horses,
three walking on the opposite side to the riders and two were just
behind the gun carriage. They stayed this way for all of the journey.
The only people who moved were the Guards in the Bearskins and red
coats. They moved behind the gun carriage at stages because of the
narrowness of the route in places. I did a quick check on the video we
made and this is what I saw.
Jenni
Angela C. Lukach
KPaules531 (kpaul...@aol.com) writes:
>
> Since someone else had questions, I have one I'm curious about. When
> the procession entered Westminster Abbey, they walked around a rectangle
> in the floor that was surrounded by something red (flowers?). What is
> that spot? Is it perhaps the burial site of someone?
that is England's Unknown Soldier.
angie
--
Breed of the Month - Yanbian!
Commercial and/or unsolicited e-mail will be processed for a $500 Cdn
handling fee. Unsolicited sending constitutes acceptance.
Angela C. Lukach
Madeupagin (madeu...@aol.com) writes:
> I've lost the FIRST post in this thread, but I want to know about the
> horses too! So, we know about the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier -- but what
> about the horses???
i believe only 3 horses were mounted at any time during the procession.
i don't know what the significance of this is, but i remember it was
like this in the procession at President Kennedy's funeral too.
> And, where did the pallbearers put their hats when carrying the coffin?
> This has been bugging me since Saturday.
as the carriage arrived at the Abbey, one of the marchers took the hats
and walked off to the right with them.
> And, how long will the Union Jack fly at half mast? Is it still, in honor
> of Princess Diana AND Mother Teresa or what? For one and not the other, or
> is it back at full staff?
the flag over Buckingham Palace is empty. the Union Jack was lowered
yesterday.
this was a HUGE consideration on the part of the Queen! the only flag
that is ever supposed to fly over a Royal Palace is the Royal Standard
and it is *always* to fly at full staff to symbolize the continuation of
the monarchy. even when the monarch dies, that flag is never lowered.
and the flag only flies over a Palace when the monarch is there.
when the Queen was here in Ottawa on Canada Day, as her carriage drove
up Wellington Street, the Maple Leaf was lowered and the Royal Standard
was raised. it's a symbolic way of saying "i'm here".
Matthew Hoover
In article <341487...@ozemail.com.au>, pla...@ozemail.com.au says...
Very good explaination of the postilions. You should post this
to the rec.equestrian NG. They have been discussing the head
tossing on the part of the three riderless carriage horses.
BTW, I did see the three riders guiding the "off" horses with
seperate reins, esp. around turns. Other times they kept them
on very short rein...may have contributed to the head tossing,
or it may have beet the very slow pace...three miles at it
and I bet those guys were ready to walk out...
No disrespect, either...I always notice the horses...never
will forget the riderless black horse behind Kennedy's
cassion...I was only 7 and did't understand what was going
on-until then...
Kathy Hoover
Angela C. Lukach
Mellissa Zillwood (mud...@uniserve.com) writes:
> Regarding the three soldiers who walked beside the horses on the
> right... I'm not entirely sure, but it could be for two reasons. One,
> that it is a sign of respect and bereavement to have riderless horses,
i think you are thinking of The Riderless Horse that is symbolic of
the Fallen Leader in a State Funeral. the horse is led through the
procession and i believe the rider's boots are placed in the stirrups
reversed as a since that s/he will never ride again.
AChrist787
Kathy,
For what it's worth, the riderless horse and the casson carrying the
coffin are available to any verteran of the us military at burial. It is
not solely reserved for presidents, etc. We turned it down when we buried
my father in Arlington last year, because he wouldn't have wanted it. But
it was available and offered to us.
Anne
Anne Christopherson
"Old roses are full of instructions on how to live right."
Mellissa Zillwood
Angie,
Thanks for the information. Like I said in my previous post, "I'm
not entirely sure," so any info from horse people is great. I was
merely speculating.
Mellissa
--
Lori Coulson
: Madeupagin (madeu...@aol.com) writes:
: > I've lost the FIRST post in this thread, but I want to know about the
: > horses too! So, we know about the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier -- but what
: > about the horses???
Angela C. Lukach (ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: i believe only 3 horses were mounted at any time during the procession.
: i don't know what the significance of this is, but i remember it was
: like this in the procession at President Kennedy's funeral too.
:
It has no "ceremonial" signifigance....half the horses pulling the gun
carriage are ridden to keep them from bolting with the coffin... a
distinct possibility if they should be spooked by the crowd. Imagine
trying to calm an upset horse if you are leading it rather than riding it.
In William Manchester's book _The Death of a President_ it says the commanding
officer picked his strongest riders to ride the horses pulling the gun
carriage for Kennedy's funeral. If you want an example of an upset horse
at a funeral, Black Jack, the riderless horse in Kennedy's procession,
dances and tosses his head most of the route....
Lori Coulson
--
*****************************************************
...Or do you still wait for me, Dream Giver...
Just around the riverbend? Pocahontas
*****************************************************
Gadfly NI
Re. White flower
As the different regiments of Guards have no place on their bearskins for
a cap badge, their different regiments are signified by different plumes
thus the white plumes signified that the pallbearers were from the Welsh Guards.
They were flown in from Northern Ireland especially for the funeral and
were chosen because they are all over six feet tall.
Jan in Northern Ireland
Matthew Hoover
In article <5v6icp$b...@login.freenet.columbus.oh.us>,
lcou...@freenet.columbus.oh.us says...
to soon to the understanding of death...
I always thought his restlessness was somehow appropriate...
he did't want to be there any more than the rest of us wanted
to watch.
Kathy Hoover
Rosanne
<snip>
> Since someone else had questions, I have one I'm curious about. When the
> procession entered Westminster Abbey, they walked around a rectangle in
the
> floor that was surrounded by something red (flowers?). What is that
spot?
> Is it perhaps the burial site of someone?
>
> As with Lesley, I am not being disrespectful - just curious.
>
> JoAnn
>
It's the tomb of the Unknown Soldier - a soldier from the Great War without
a name, buried there as a mark of respect to all of those who fell in that
terrible war. To step on it would be a tremendous insult to those men (and
women). Hope that helps.
Rosanne
Rorie and Alison McIntosh
I understand those horses were put through a lot of training that week.
The horses used in processions are already trained to ignore even
fireworks going off around them.
For this particular procession someone had the insight to prepare the
horses by having flowers thrown at them as well.
You are right though, marvellous animals and their riders did do a super
job. I kept noticing how much the one particular horse was acting up.
Apparently, the horses are taken for a run before such an event, but this
one still had lots of energy!!
Alison
Matthew Hoover
In article <01bcc235$8d9c0980$4495bfcc@rorie>, ro...@istar.ca says...
thought the horses and their handlers and the pall bearers
did a wonderful job in a very difficult situation. All Britons
should be proud. These horses are probably the cream of the
crop and are trained to handle anything...but, I remember a few
years back on the Queen's birthday, she was riding (sidesaddle!)
in a procession and some sort of firecracker went off (things
were VERY tense w/N.Ireland at the time)and her horse just
freaked out. I would have been dumped, but she regained control
and brought the horse back onto all four feet and calmly proceded
on her way. The horse reacted in a very natural way but was
well trained enough to listen to her (I'm assuming it was a mare,
but I don't know)rider and put aside her fear and go on.
And the Queen did a good job too!
Kathy