Plastic... good or bad?
n_ko...@hotmail.com
>Even Leonardo DaVinci would be painting with acrylics if he were alive today. >Thank God for making plastic possible! :^)
>Arlene
I think this statement is very appropriate. Are artist who use acrylics
considered to be at a lower level than those who use oils?
It seems like people are against PLASTIC polymer clay because it is not
natural. Maybe we should take some time out to think of what the other
great art mediums are.
Pottery is obviously natural. It is made from earthen clays. Of course,
by some definitions pottery is NOT art. It is functional.
Wood carving is natural. Again so much of the wonderful wood carving I
see is again functional (ie furniture).
Oil painting? It has been around a long time but is it natural? Solvents
commonly used in paints include mineral spirits (naphtha), toluene,
xylene, and other petroleum distillate solvents. Sure these are
"natural" petroleum products... but polymer clay is made from similar
chemicals.
Acrylic paints?. Acrylics are pigment suspended in a polymer binder which
can be dissolved in water. Not as "bad for you" as oil paints.... but
not natural.
What other art mediums are we being compared too? The cutesie cloth
bunnies? Bet they are stuffed with polyester fill. VERY unnatural.
Maybe made with cotton fabric... maybe made with a synthetic blend.
I think Gemstone and glass jewelry can be considered natural. Let's
think of some more categories. I bet we will find many of them are just
as "plastic" oriented as polymer clay.... What do you think?
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Sherry Bailey
n_ko...@hotmail.com wrote:
: >Even Leonardo DaVinci would be painting with acrylics if he were alive today. >Thank God for making plastic possible! :^)
: >Arlene
: I think this statement is very appropriate. Are artist who use acrylics
: considered to be at a lower level than those who use oils?
When *I* was in art school, many moons ago, there was DEFINITELY this bias --
you weren't a real "painter" if you worked in anything but watercolor
(including gouache (sp?), or oils. Period!) This may have changed since then,
though. But when acrylics were still relatively new, some schools didn't even
permit their use.
: It seems like people are against PLASTIC polymer clay because it is not
: natural. Maybe we should take some time out to think of what the other
: great art mediums are.
: Pottery is obviously natural. It is made from earthen clays. Of course,
: by some definitions pottery is NOT art. It is functional.
Fine crafts are now art -- ceramic sculpture is definitely and approved art
medium now.
: Wood carving is natural. Again so much of the wonderful wood carving I
: see is again functional (ie furniture).
There is furniture, there is sculpture.
: Oil painting? It has been around a long time but is it natural? Solvents
: commonly used in paints include mineral spirits (naphtha), toluene,
: xylene, and other petroleum distillate solvents. Sure these are
: "natural" petroleum products... but polymer clay is made from similar
: chemicals.
Oil painting USED to be linseed oil, turpentine, and damar varnish, mostly --
before that it was ALL natural, you originally ground your own pigment powders
in a moretor & pestle from rocks! Modern oil painters have new and more
synthetic materials, but when the "ambience" of oil painting started, it was
definintely more "natural" than now.
: Acrylic paints?. Acrylics are pigment suspended in a polymer binder which
: can be dissolved in water. Not as "bad for you" as oil paints.... but
: not natural.
: What other art mediums are we being compared too? The cutesie cloth
: bunnies? Bet they are stuffed with polyester fill. VERY unnatural.
: Maybe made with cotton fabric... maybe made with a synthetic blend.
: I think Gemstone and glass jewelry can be considered natural. Let's
: think of some more categories. I bet we will find many of them are just
: as "plastic" oriented as polymer clay.... What do you think?
Fine art originally included the follwoing (let's see if I can manage not to
leave something out!):
Painting (oil, watercolor, gouache)
Drawing (paper with charcoal, ink, pencil, pastels)
Printmaking (paper with ink: silkscreen, lithography [stone], etching [metal]
woodblock [wood], linoleum block [wood & linoleum, which is made from
"natural" materials], maybe a couple of others.) (Photography often was
placed in this category in the past -- don't know if it is still viewed
that way or if it's "on it's own" now.)
Sculpture (wood [addative/assembled or subtractive/carved], stone, metal
[especially bronze casting or assembled steel] and that's about it.)
Back not so long ago, that was it -- if you did anything else, you weren't an
"artist", you were (at BEST) a craftsman. And even then, fine crafts were
pretty restrictive, too:
Fiber (weaving, batik, basketry, and an assortment of other stuff, NOT
including macrame, for example.)
Pottery (functional pots, mostly, stoneware, earthenware, porcelain)
Jewelry (silver and gold with stones)
Seems likely I'm missing something here, but there were only a small handful
of "crafts" that were CALLED that, totally unlike today.
If you worked in commercial art that was a category apart where nearly
anything might be possible because it was "advertising" and not "Art".
And if you did anything ELSE, it was a "hobby". (Leatherworking, whittling,
"making things", most of the stuff Ben Franklins or Michael's sells as "craft"
materials today.)
So a lot of the attitude stuff is rooted in that history. The arts and crafts
movement which I believe was mostly in the 1930's and 40's began to expand the
concept of what a craft (lower case "c") was, and then the fine crafts
movement starting in the 60's or so (and which I guess I kind of participated
in) re-defined Crafts (with a capital "C"). (That's when glass work started to
become a Fine Craft, largely with studios in Toledo and Dearborn Michigan
leading the way.) And now of course what I think of as "hobby crafts" (think
bunnies, think cute) is one of the big movements in retail. Making all the
concepts a bit more murky in definition, especially when, like in polymer
clay, there are all sorts of levels of participation with the same material.
(I mean, it's a bit harder to get truely "kitsch" stuff in blown glass or
sterling silver because of the studio and materials costs involved -- if you
are motivated to make the investment, probably you are talented enough and
serious enough to do at least passably good work. That isn't true with polymer
clay. Anybody can play, and anybody DOES!) (Which is not necessarily a bad
thing, just one which complicates things.)
Why did I get off on this tangent??? ;^) OH YEAH!! I remember!!!
So I think we have two overlapping but really kind of separate issues here.
One is that "Plastic" has a bad reputation. (I repeat something I posted
before -- I think the National Guild should work with the American Plastics
Council, or whatever it's called, on a campaign regarding plastic in art: they
do them now about "how your life is better with plastic", it's a natural
extension of that.)
The other is that ANY medium has to struggle to gain acceptance in the mass
psychology (especially the part of it which involves museums, critics, art
professors, and other "art professionals") and polymer clay isn't there
yet. The only way we can overcome THAT issue is to make things which are
OBVIOUSLY art and high quality, and make these kinds of people aware of
them. Enter competitions, have exhibitions, sell to collectors, get into
galleries, etc. Polymer clay IS also a hobby craft medium, which can be
true about oil painting but is kind of LESS true psychologically (a hobby oil
painting has the same "parts" if you will as a masterpiece, it's just "not as
good". Polymer clay can do too many things for the parallels to be there, with
only a "quality" difference between them.) This adds on the resulting stigma
of some viewers thinking it is less serious as an art material, because it's
really a "toy". (Like Play-Doh.)
The plastics issue is kind of a psychological "taboo" -- we were brainwashed
into thinking it was BAD, we can be brainwashed into thinking it is good! ;^)
(In other words, the solution there is marketing.)
The art medium issue is common to all new media, and basically requires making
and presenting unquestionable fine art made from the stuff. Over time it will
just become accepted, like acrylic paints. (Unless something dire about
long-term durability or something crops up, but let's hope for the best!)
And them's my thoughts on the subject!!
But let's start a separate thread just for posting a list of artists we
discover who work in SOME kind of plastic and who are already "accepted" (as
in galleries of note, or in museum collections.)
Sherry
ZXjudith
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury,
May I submit this tiny tidbit. ALL plastics are organic.
Plastic is made with and from petroleum. Petroleum is a variable substance
created through the decompostion of plant and animal matter under not fully
understood conditions of heat, pressure, and time. It is not a mineral, it is
an organic substance. It cannot be produced artificially in quantity, and must
then be derived from the same organic substances producing the natural product.
Polymers are chains of molecules; loosely speaking, anything sticky is a
polymer. Amber, that most "organic" of gems, is the quintessential polymer.
Jet (fossilized coal) is organic. Most fertilizers, herbicides, and
pesticides are derived from petroleum. The most "organic" food you can eat is
unwashed, straight out of a commercial orchard that sprays, uses systemic
pesticides, and fertilizes with wildly organic poisons.
This is why, generally speaking, organic poisons kill faster and more
unpleasantly than inorganic poisons. Lead will kill you, but cyanide or pure
nicotine will do the job infinitely faster, and usually more painfully. And
lots of those early artists died from putting a point on their lead-laden
brushes with their mouths.
"Art" is the least arguable subject on the planet; it is truly a matter of
opinion, and all too often, of snobbery. Art is what you like - I have
neighbors who happily house a collection of Mexican-border tourist pottery
which they adore. I'd use the larger pieces as catboxes in some inconspicuous
place, but otherwise, wouldn't give them houseroom. Who's right?
We both are. I sincerely admire their latest acquisitions because the pieces
make my friends happy. Their idea of art has nothing to do with mine, but I
have what I like, and they have what they like - we are both happy, and we both
have great taste in art.
The comedian, George Carlin, has speculated that the only use Nature may have
for the human race was the creation of plastic. He says that Nature wanted
plastic, and made us. Mom Nature's got her plastic, and we are on the way to
the showers.
One weird woman's point of view.
Judith
ZXJu...@AOL.com
J J J Jami
>I think Gemstone and glass jewelry can be considered natural. Let's
think of
>some more categories. I bet we will find many of them are just
as "plastic"
>oriented as polymer clay.... What do you think?
Gemstones may have been assumed to be natural 100 yrs ago, but not any more.
Heat treated, oiled, irradiated, vacuum epoxy-filled, and man made. Not that
it is all bad, but I do object strenuously to epoxy filling and oiling. I
don't know much about the changes in glass, except that now the ovens are
computer controlled.
Jami Miller
Echo 01
SLBailey you wrote:
>Enter competitions, have exhibitions, sell to collectors, get into
galleries, et<
And I ask how can you do that when they will not let you compete,show,or enter
with a plastic piece?
DBuck26803
The question of rather gems stones can be called natural anymore brought to
mind another thought. The majority of jewelry sold is not very exciting design
wise. Most of it is priced based on the monetary value of the materials, and it
is the "safe" thing that most people feel comfortable buying. But every few
months or so, I see a report on TV about customers not getting what they pay
for- 18 carat gold that isn't,synthetic stones when they paid for natural ones.
This would seem to support my argument that people should invest in jewelry and
art in general based on great design and ideas, not just by the ounce. I would
much rather wear a pendant made of found and inexpensive materials that says
something to me than one of those boring diamond necklaces they've been hawking
for valentines day! I don't think you can ever really get "your money's worth"
with those.
another couple of cents,
Jody Bishel
ABAKER1296
Echo 01 wrote:
>
> SLBailey you wrote:
> >Enter competitions, have exhibitions, sell to collectors, get into
>
> And I ask how can you do that when they will not let you compete,show,or enter
> with a plastic piece?
>
> lshi...@hiwaay.net
> ech...@aol.com
I've been reading this thread with great interest because I have
*never* come across this type of attitude toward any of my creations
with polymer clay. I have been showing and entering contests for years
with things made of PC and no one has ever said a thing or implied that
I'm not a true artistan because of what I work in. I've won several
ribbons at shows with my work and my work consists largely of PC items.
I don't understand how I and the local artistan's group that I am a part
of have had no problems wit this type of attitude, and yet at the same
time the NG is filled with people talking about it as if it were an
every day occurence.
My question to all who have written at length on this suject is:
how often have you encountered this attitude about your works in PC?
DABlack
(DBuck26803) writes
>I would much rather wear a pendant made of found and inexpensive materials
>that says something to me than one of those boring diamond necklaces they've
>been hawking for valentines day!
Ab-so-lute-leeeeeey!!!!
In fact just before Valentine's Day and Christmas are times when I can hardly
watch TV or listen to non-public radio (the perfume commercials make it worse.
. . )!
Sincere apologies to those who are really into this sort of thing. I just
wanted to vent and say that I don't like being referred to in statements like
"of course, *all* women really crave expensive jewelry from their husbands,"
etc. I want to yell back at the radio, no, no, n-o-o-o-o-o!!!. . . . So now
I've yelled back here :-)
Thanks. I feel better now. . . .
Diane B.
RSPIEGE
Diane said:<<< I don't like being referred to in statements like "of course,
*all* women really crave expensive jewelry from their husbands," etc. I want
to yell back at the radio, no, no, n-o-o-o-o-o!!!. >>>
Of course this is the right place to say this - considering how many women here
wanted power tools for the holidays! One good thing about V-day is all the
hearts I got in an aol heart swap. And I'll spend the day in a poly-clay
workshop. Who could ask for more?
Randi
Peggy & Bob
> I make tatted jewelry, as well as polymer clay, and use a
> lot
> of plastic beads to save wear and tear and weight stress on
> the tatting,
>
>
> Donna J. Carty
>
>
Donna,
I'm interested in your jewelery. Can you describe what tatted
jewelery is.....do you have any pictures up for us to see?
Thanks,
peg polymer
mailto:bobo...@ix.netcom.com
DJC poland
Another great selling point about plastic as a jewelry material is that it is
light to wear, and a lot of women actually do reject beautiful glass jewelry
(another "ordinary" material that is only now beginning to be valued when
skills are applied to it) and even precious metal because its heaviness makes
it hard to wear. I make tatted jewelry, as well as polymer clay, and use a lot
of plastic beads to save wear and tear and weight stress on the tatting, but I
sure find myself making that explanation a lot. And one more comfort
advantage. It isn't going to get hot or cold against the skin depending on the
weather. I'd say PC is an ideal jewelry material on several practical bases.
Donna J. Carty
"To be perfect is to change often." John Cardinal Neuman
geo...@deltanet.com
On 12 Feb 1998 20:27:33 GMT, slba...@bu.edu (Sherry Bailey) wrote:
>n_ko...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>: >Even Leonardo DaVinci would be painting with acrylics if he were alive today. >Thank God for making plastic possible! :^)
>
>: >Arlene
>
>
snip
>
>But let's start a separate thread just for posting a list of artists we
>discover who work in SOME kind of plastic and who are already "accepted" (as
>in galleries of note, or in museum collections.)
>
>Sherry
I thought about this several days ago and went to bed with my head
spinning thinking that there might even be a scholarly-type paper in
here somewhere. (Then, as normal, the absolute chaos of work sucked
all time and consciousness out of me.) It might be useful to go
through the major art and craft magazine over the last year (to begin
with) and list all the works shown which contain some plastic element,
whether the piece is part of a feature/article or is in a gallery ad.
I know that I've seen probably quite a few. We need to find some old
articles addressing the acceptance of new art materials, etc.
I've considered the issue of archival quality materials amd practices
as a barrier to acceptance but, you know, works of art on paper (not
always of good quality or acid free) have been accepted. Braque used
newspaper, one of the worst, in his collages. Hell, Gauguin painted
some absolutely stunning pictures on gawdawful burlap, etc. So, while
it is an important issue, the medium itself shouldn't be a permanent
barrier to acceptance of the work.
Just some tentative thoughts,
Vicki
Sherry Bailey
Echo 01 (ech...@aol.com) wrote:
: SLBailey you wrote:
: >Enter competitions, have exhibitions, sell to collectors, get into
: galleries, et<
: And I ask how can you do that when they will not let you compete,show,or enter
: with a plastic piece?
Well, sometimes it takes being a consumer advocate and arguing your
case. Sometimes it takes a mildly devious mind and entering in the multi-media
category. Sometimes you just don't succeed with THAT show or exhibit or
gallery. Get in where you can, and the more times polymer clay shows up, the
lower the resistance will become.
(It's is only SOME of the time that they have such a specific bias, not 100%
And even in shows where there is no rule about it, you can still run into a
weird juror who will reject anything they wnat to for any REASON they want to,
and you won't ever know. All we can do is keep trying!)
Sherry
Sherry Bailey
Couple of things...
I don't actually get out there with my own work that much, sorry to say, but
every art fair I HAVE been to, and members of my guild have reported this too,
SOMEBODY (we are talking customers here, not usually gallery owners or
whatever) will pick something up with an admiring expression, say "Oh, is this
PLASTIC", and toss it down in disgust! (Or something like that, anyway.)
Some hang around for the pitch, most don't. It is definitely out there, but
maybe the hurdle isn't as big for some or in some areas as it is elsewhere.
(I thought the remark was most amusing from a woman who also had a booth and
was selling commercial beads with slices of agate and wire wrapping. At the
risk of accidentally insulting beaders in the group, her work had almost NO
originality in any aspect, almost no skills involved, her wire wrapping was
straight out of the books -- but because she used "real stones" she felt HER
display was art and ours (I was sharing with my friend Jan Fujita) was "just
plastic"! She was amazingly blunt about it, too!)
Rats! Now I have forgotten what the other thing in the "couple of things"
was!! Oh well!
Sherry
Byroni10
>I have been showing and entering contests for years
>with things made of PC and no one has ever said a thing or implied that
>I'm not a true artistan because of what I work in.
>I don't understand how I and the local artistan's group that I am a part
>of have had no problems wit this type of attitude, and yet at the same
>time the NG is filled with people talking about it as if it were an
>every day occurence.
> My question to all who have written at length on this suject is:
>how often have you encountered this attitude about your works in PC?
I'm curious to know what items yojou make out of polymer clay.I suspect this
attitude is related to what is created out of the clay. For example, I think
polymer is widely accepted by doll artists, however it may be looked down on
more by people in the area of jewelry and other "fine" crafts. Just a thought
Roni
"Be yourself! Who else is better qualified?"
Byroni10
>And one more comfort
>advantage. It isn't going to get hot or cold against the skin depending on
>the
>weather.
While I agree that polymer jewelry has advantages over some materials, I have
found that I have difficulty wearing some polymer jewelry in the summer. When
I wear some of my bracelets or necklaces on hot summer days, I find that my
skin sweats much more under the area where the polymer is worn, and it gets
very uncomfortable. So I've taken to not wearing polymer nex to my skin when
its hot out. I've always assumed that this is because the polymer doesn't
allow my skin to "breathe." Has anyone else felt this way. BTW, I still wear
my jewelry in summer as long as its ontop of my clothing, not next to my skin.
scott & irene
Some of what Sherry said brought a couple more points to mind for me.
I do not run into prejudice against polymer clay often, really, considering
how many people I come into contact with at a show. I *do* hear quite
often, "oh, my kids play with that stuff" and sometimes I can win these
people over and sometimes not. I think it's more often ignorance than
snootiness.
I sometimes run into hard feelings from other artists and craftspeople --
especially, I'm very sorry to say, potters. That is one of the reasons I
*always* refer to it as polymer clay, not just clay. I am quick to explain
the difference between it and earthen clay. I suspect these potters have
run into people using polymer clay who don't attempt to differentiate, I
don't really know though. (Please note! I'm not generalizing, this is
just my experience!). Again, these prejudices are few and far between.
From juries? Well, most juries will not give a reason for rejection! It's
frustrating to be rejected from a show and not know why, and I do think for
the $8, $10, or even -ouch- $20 jury fee, a rejected artist should get a
reason why! I was not accepted to three shows last year, but ended up
being re-evaluated and accepted to two of them by nicely calling and
following up with a very professional letter, explaining what polymer clay
is, techniques I use, etc. Perhaps the jury that did the rejecting was not
familiar with polymer clay. (Third show would not even hear me out on the
phone!) Hopefully, I will avoid that scenario with this year's shows, as
I'm now sending a biography that includes info about polymer clay,
techniques, etc with every show application.
So often, people think caneworked designs are painted on, even when they
see them in person. A show jury will project *all* of your slides at *one*
time and leave the images on the screen for mere seconds! How can they, in
those few seconds, know the images are not paint? Once again, I think it's
more ignorance than snootiness.
My couple o' cents,
Irene
MJBURK
>I'm very sorry to say, potters. That is one of the reasons I
>*always* refer to it as polymer clay, not just clay. I am quick to explain
>the difference between it and earthen clay. I suspect these potters have
>run into people using polymer clay who don't attempt to differentiate, I
>don't really know though.
Not this one..... :-) Of coarse I cant call myself a potterer ;-) I dont
have my wheel yet. But I'm gonna if I have to chain my hubby to the garage.
(He said he would build me a wheel)
I Love all the clays..... be it plastic or natural.
Mj Billings Montana ~Don't Worry Be Happy~ I am on AOL.
So PLEASE... if you want to respond to one of my post, please click the
''e-mail author'' or ''cc author'' button. Not all of the post gets on my
news group window. Thanks so much
BethCurran
>Diane said:<<< I don't like being referred to in statements like "of course,
>*all* women really crave expensive jewelry from their husbands," etc. I want
>to yell back at the radio, no, no, n-o-o-o-o-o!!!. >>>
Hoo boy, let's all have fun scraping polyclay residue from our 2.5 carat
diamonds, shall we, grrls??????? You know I could REALLY use some advice on
that myself. Why, sometimes it takes the maid half an hour! ;^D - Beth C
fra...@craftwolf.com
Judith, I do agree with you. I have always prefered to visit an art
gallery or museum alone or to aleast wander away from the crowd and "look
alone".
I much prefer to see in a object of art what "I see" and not to be
told what I am "expected to see".
Frances, How.Co.MD
fra...@craftwolf.com
LynnDel
byro...@aol.com (Byroni10) wrote:
>While I agree that polymer jewelry has advantages over some materials, I have
>found that I have difficulty wearing some polymer jewelry in the summer. When
>I wear some of my bracelets or necklaces on hot summer days, I find that my
>skin sweats much more under the area where the polymer is worn, and it gets
>very uncomfortable. So I've taken to not wearing polymer nex to my skin when
>its hot out. I've always assumed that this is because the polymer doesn't
>allow my skin to "breathe." Has anyone else felt this way.
I've experienced this, too, when wearing my polymer-beaded watch
bands. However, I don't notice any more discomfort with the polymer
band than with expando metal bands or imitation leather bands. Real
leather bands soak up the perspiration and make me itch, so I guess
anything that prevents the drying out of damp skin is bound to cause
discomfort.
LynnDel
*"*-.,_,.-*"* To e-mail me, remove the lie *"*-.,_,.-*"*-
Echo 01
Soak the ring in alcohol then with pine-Sol and use that niffty little sonic
cleaner to get it all out.
What you don't have a sonic cleaner? then you will need to use a sergical scrub
brush or tooth brush, or even a tooth pick.
But the solutions will still work.
Caution do not use a sonic cleaner on Opals the shater and/or get etched.
lshi...@hiwaay.net
ech...@aol.com