weirdest request
Patti Kimle
Stephanie,
My husband is very interested in politics. He's worked in the Senate and
for many campaigns. This sounds like something he'd like. So nobody
tell him because I agree it sounds like a project with too much involved
to pay off!!! Now if you did make them, make a mold from them!
Patti
Stephanie Michlink wrote:
> Here's another good thread to get started:
>
> I make beautiful rose covered candle stick holders and other various
> ones. I
> had a request today to do a "White House" and "Capital Building"
> candle stick
> holders for a wedding present from a guy that has some friends that
> both work
> for the government.. This guy even drew me a diagram with
> dimensions. He wants
> them by the 25th and doesn't want to pay much. I politely declined
> the offer.
> I am way to busy to work on something I might get stuck with. Any one
> else
> interested in tackling this project?
>
> Stephanie Michlink
Sherry Bailey
Here's an idea for a counter offer!
Make a more "normal" design candle holder, for you, but add photocopy
transfers of the buildings to them (somehow.)
I love it how people are ready to run an artist's creativity but don't want to
pay for it, don't you!? (NOT!)
Sherry
Angela
scott & irene wrote:
>
> June Knobbe <JKn...@SpamSouth.net> wrote
> > I have found that if you give people too much, they don't appreciate
> > it. You might want to print up a little booklet with some tips and
> > pointers on how to do simple things, and then when they ask, How did
> > you do this? How long did it take? etc. say, "Well here, buy my
> > book for $2 or whatever, you'll find most of the answers to your
> > questions right here." Some might actually buy it and learn
> > something.
>
> ???? I am *always* willing to tell my customers how I do what I do! Why
> not? I learned from others! And by the time anyone is able to do it as
> well as I can, I'm onto something else. I'm not threatened by people
> quizzing me about my work -- it is flattering for my work to inspire
> someone so much that they want to go home and create. I show people the
> book _The New Clay_ and tell them that it's the book I learned from. I
> show them the other polymer clay books, tell them about the National Guild,
> this newsgroup, and so on. None of the techniques I use are secrets. It's
> my particular style that makes them what they are.
>
> I'm a little puzzled about this "us against them" feeling about customers.
> These people are how I make my living -- I can't imagine trying to
> antagonize them!
>
> Irene
I don't think it's an "us against them" attitude. I don't like it when
people try to get all the information, want to do a sketch of the piece,
ask what stores I buy pieces from and then go home and make thier own.
If I wanted to be an instructor I would teach classes, but I'm not a
teacher and don't want to teach a class while I'm at a show. Answering
merely curious questions is not the problem. We're talking about people
who set out to get detailed info to make thier own.
Angela
Angela
Mamadude wrote:
>
> The weirdes thing that happened to me was in my hometown where I was doing a
> show right next to our craft megastore. After the show I realized I needed to
> stock up on a couple of colors. As I entered the clay aisle at the craft
> store, lo and behold, there were three women who had purchased one of my
> ornaments at the show. They were actually in the process of holding my
> ornament up to the different colors of clay, trying to match it. I walked up
> to them and said "good luck---the clay color is not on the shelf, it was custom
> mixed from a clay that I get from California (I didn't tell them CFC)." I
> added, "also, please notice the coypright mark on the back--it is there because
> I created and own the design." I walked away--but these amadons were so
> brazen, their faces didn't even turn red! (as if they could duplicate it
> anyways---it is amazing how many people think they can "just do it!")
I think I would have been upset if you had said those things to me, but
not for the reason you probably think they should have been. I don't
have a ton of money to throw around and sometimes I like things that
other people create but can't afford them. I don't see one tiny little
thing wrong with trying to duplicate a design for one's own personal
use, not for resale. Since I'm on both sides I can understand both
sides. If those women were going to resell that item I can understand
you anger. But I don't see how you could know that just by running into
them in the store. JMO.
Angela
Angela
LINDA JACOBS wrote:
>
> Sherry said "The value of high level craftsmanship somehow started
> getting lost with the industrial revolution in the West." I must
> agree. Some years ago I developed a great love for designing & making
> beautiful handmade quilts. Now people thing anything over $35 is too
> high.
> Its like our pc creations compared to the mass produced items. one has
> spirit, the other has no soul.
>
> Anyone can roll balls of clay & stick them together or cut something
> out with a cookie cutter or make something with a press mold, or buy a
> kit and sew up an attractive quilt, but there is a difference. I
> believe the artist imparts the breath of life into creation.
>
> Linda J
People value different things. I have my home filled with what I think
are beautiful things, but none of them cost very much. I can't imagine
paying $300 for a handmade quilt the way my sister did. I have
absolutely no idea how she did that. I don't value craftsmanship in
everything I have. I value it in some things but not others. I'd rather
buy 6 quilts that were beautiful for that price and have one hanging in
every room as a wall hanging. So I think it all depends on what one
values. (I have been known however, to pay $50 for a 2" end table for my
dollhouse. See what I mean?)
Angela
Barcy D
>I love it how people are ready to run an artist's creativity but don't want to
pay for it, don't you!? (NOT!)
I tend to agree with Patti in that this project promises way too much work for
too little a payoff.
Yes, Sherry, you're right! I also love "oooo, I love this, how much is it?
That much? okay. I want one just like this, but could it be just a bit bigger,
and does it have to be this color? Don't you have something in a pastel? And
could mine have less/more little doodads on it? I wouldn't need it till day
after tomorrow" Yeeesh! Makes me nuts.
'Till Later . . .
Barcy
June Knobbe
I have been crafting and doing artwork all my life and I just hate
when someone offers me $5 for something that took me a month to
create. Unless a person does art or craft or something by hand, they
have no idea the value of it. I recently lost a friend because she
asked me to make little pillows for her with a saying painted on it,
and ribbon on it so it could be hung over the door knob. I went to
the store and priced material and all necessary stuff and gave her my
figures on how much I would charge to make these. She threw a fit
that I wanted way too much. She said she would probably order a lot
of them so I should come down on my price. I told her I was not a
manufacturing company, and that was probably what she needed. She
just went on and on demanding I make them for pennies. I declined to
make any for her then. I don't like making something for someone
to their specifications, because they are usually unrealistic. I like
to creat art just for me.
I made a large beautiful wreath for my wall and my niece took a look
and said "Oh, you should sell these, I bet you could get $15 for it at
least." I told her I had $30 into it in materials alone and asked her
where she thought she could get a large wreath hand made for $15.
Ah well, live and learn. I really can sympathize with you over this.
June
Regards, June
Spammers need not reply.
If you want to email me,
replace "Spam" with the word "Bell"
in my address. Thanks
Otterfire
June,
I understand. I have a friend who wanted one of my She of Summers, i havent
actually made one yet, but it would be just like another one i have with a
child in her arms...any who...
i quoted her a price and she had the %*(&#(# nerve to say what about the best
friend discount. AND then went on to say my birthday is in OCTOBER......
THAT WAS the best friend discount!
Guess what she is getting for her birthday..it doesnt start with an SHE!!!!
hee hee hee
Bevery Michie
> >I love it how people are ready to run an artist's creativity but don't
want to
> pay for it, don't you!? (NOT!)
>
> I tend to agree with Patti in that this project promises way too much
work for
> too little a payoff.
>
> Yes, Sherry, you're right! I also love "oooo, I love this, how much is
it?
> That much? okay. I want one just like this, but could it be just a bit
bigger,
> and does it have to be this color? Don't you have something in a pastel?
And
> could mine have less/more little doodads on it? I wouldn't need it till
day
> after tomorrow" Yeeesh! Makes me nuts.
What I love is at the show I just did the folks who pick up the items,
scrutinize them and ask "what did you attach this with...how did you make
it?...can I photograph it so I can make it myself?....where do you buy the
components?..." etc. I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of
flattery...
Bev
scott & irene
Bevery Michie <gmi...@concentric.net> wrote
> What I love is at the show I just did the folks who pick up the items,
> scrutinize them and ask "what did you attach this with...how did you make
> it?...can I photograph it so I can make it myself?....where do you buy
the
> components?..." etc. I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of
> flattery...
Or people who ask how long it took to make something, as if trying to
determine what I pay myself hourly. I always reply that there are many
different steps, and all together, it takes about a week. This is true,
because even the simplest pin or pair of earrings doesn't get its finding
attached until I can do many at one time.
But! I have definitely noticed that the better the show, the more willing
customers are to pay the price I'm asking. Customers at these
higher-quality shows are also accustomed to paying more for special orders
(!) and never ask for a discount for buying more than one thing. There's a
lesson here.
Irene
--
to email, remove first x from address
June Knobbe
You're smart. Ever since I made a crocheted pillow for my sister,
and then saw it in her yardsale for 50c, I've been buying her $5 items
from Kmart or Wal-mart now. I keep the stuff I've made for ME.
I like to make birdbaths out of clay pots, paint them, and then
display them in the garden. She recently said she'd love to have one,
and her birthday is in Sept. It's what, June? I don't think that's
going to happen. Knowing her, after a few months she'd get tired of
it and throw it out.
Oh, and one time (same sister) she came over. I had just made a great
batch of salsa from tomatoes, onions, and green peppers I had in my
garden. I had her try it. She said "Eh, ok for _homemade_." So
like what, she'd rather have store bought? Ok, so be it. hehe.
June Knobbe
>
> What I love is at the show I just did the folks who pick up the items,
> scrutinize them and ask "what did you attach this with...how did you make
> it?...can I photograph it so I can make it myself?....where do you buy the
> components?..." etc. I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of
> flattery...
>
> Bev
It certainly is the cheapest form. ha ha.
Most everyone says, "I could make this!" I say "Then why don't you?"
June Knobbe
>
> But! I have definitely noticed that the better the show, the more willing
> customers are to pay the price I'm asking. Customers at these
> higher-quality shows are also accustomed to paying more for special orders
> (!) and never ask for a discount for buying more than one thing. There's a
> lesson here.
>
> Irene
I have found that if you give people too much, they don't appreciate
it. You might want to print up a little booklet with some tips and
pointers on how to do simple things, and then when they ask, How did
you do this? How long did it take? etc. say, "Well here, buy my
book for $2 or whatever, you'll find most of the answers to your
questions right here." Some might actually buy it and learn
something.
scott & irene
June Knobbe <JKn...@SpamSouth.net> wrote
> I have found that if you give people too much, they don't appreciate
> it. You might want to print up a little booklet with some tips and
> pointers on how to do simple things, and then when they ask, How did
> you do this? How long did it take? etc. say, "Well here, buy my
> book for $2 or whatever, you'll find most of the answers to your
> questions right here." Some might actually buy it and learn
> something.
???? I am *always* willing to tell my customers how I do what I do! Why
Sherry Bailey
scott & irene (fat...@xpobox.com) wrote:
: I'm a little puzzled about this "us against them" feeling about customers.
: These people are how I make my living -- I can't imagine trying to
: antagonize them!
Well, having been in the position both as a gracious "teacher" and as a
secretly surly "us against them" type, I think I can safely say that the
"them" we are talking about here are NOT customers. POTENTIAL customers at the
outside, maybe, but mostly they are other less imaginative crafters who scout
shows for new ideas they can make to sell. If they buy, it is usually as a
sample to "reverse engineer". They have the attitude that all design work is
open for anybody, copyright is meaningless to them, and if they can have the
booth next to yours and sell identical items at the next show, at lower
prices, they will do it. (Not all customers are discriminating enough to
appreciate the higher degree of craftsmanship.)
There is one specific example of that behavior in NH who has a reputation
among many of us, who flagrantly does this. Unfortunately she is also a good
marketer, and gets into publications with her work because those who accept
her articles and photos don't recognize the fact that her work (at least her
polymer clay work -- she also does fiber and there I don't know) is copied
from members of our guild, City Zen Cane, Pier Voulkos and others from whom
she took workshops. She really sizzles my chops!
True newcomers who are just puzzled are fine to explain to, and I also shoew
them books and give them our guild business card or brochure, etc. But not
copiests.
Sherry
LINDA JACOBS
I agree with Sherry about people who flagrantly copy. They're about as
bad as the people who do not understand or appreciate what they see.
My son is also an artist and makes dragons that look as good as anything
from Armani. We used one of his originals as a centerpiece at my last
show and someone came up and said 'I bet you coulc get $50 for that
easy!" This was a 24" long flying dragon with impressive wing spead
flying over a crumbling castle. The price on that particular piece will
be $2900 IF we choose to sell it,
Then there are the people who can't understand the difference between pc
& dough. They see you working with it & say it looks the same.
Please forgive the venting, just had yto mail in my $400 deposit on my
booth at my favorite show.
Linda J
Otterfire
Irene,
I think I have to agree with you. It has been my experience that most of the
people i have dealt with (granted my experience at this point is limited) have
no idea about polymer clay and they think that alot of the stuff is painted on.
And the only people that have been close to the point of irritation were
mothers with their children, asking for them. I know the kids wont be able to
do the things i have done (at least not immediately) and they may even get
bored with the work it takes to acheive the final result.
Hey and ya never know, one day one of those curiousity seekers might offer to
condition your clay for free just to gain knowledge from you......
hey i can dream cant i?
Sherry Bailey
LINDA JACOBS (SCULP...@webtv.net) wrote:
: My son is also an artist and makes dragons that look as good as anything
: from Armani. We used one of his originals as a centerpiece at my last
: show and someone came up and said 'I bet you coulc get $50 for that
: easy!" This was a 24" long flying dragon with impressive wing spead
: flying over a crumbling castle. The price on that particular piece will
: be $2900 IF we choose to sell it,
Well, they were right, then -- heck *I* will give you $50 for it sight
unseen!! ;^) (Just kidding, letter bombs are NOT required!!) What I think is
funny is the way they think this stuff is a COMPLIMENT! (Hey, nice Porche --
I'll bet you could get $50 for it easy!)
Oh well, what can you do?
Sherry
scott & irene
I don't have kids myself, and don't feel any special affinity for kids, but
there is a certain satisfaction I've gotten from this scenario on several
occasions. At a show, a parent and child will come into the booth, and the
parent may or may not be interested in my stuff. The child is familiar
with polymer clay, and has made stuff with it, beads or sculptures or
school projects or whatever. If it's the right place, right time, right
kid, we can launch into a technical discussion about polymer clay and its
properties. Mostly kids have the problem that their Sculpey broke or their
Fimo is too hard to knead. I tell 'em what they can do to solve this, we
talk about different techniques, how to use armatures, the importance of
letting canes rest, and so on and so on. The parent, meanwhile, waits
patiently while their kid is getting technical advice. It's cool, to me,
that this kid is now bursting with desire to go home and CREATE and I'm the
one who inspired them. And I absolutely *love* it when the following year,
at the same show, the same kid brings what they've made to show me.
Nah, it doesn't make a sale where there wasn't one to be made, but it fired
someone up about polymer clay, and probably did something good for the
kid's self-esteem and/or creativity.
Angela
SHANEANGEL wrote:
>
>
> I suppose what gets on my nerves the worst is people (usually my kids friends
> moms) who have never picked up a piece of clay want to come over for an
> afternoon so I can show them how I make those 'neat things out of clay'. There
> are a lot of people who don't want to take a class from me but just want to
> drop by sometime so I can show them how to make stuff.
>
> Geez! I suppose I could go on and on about wierd requests. But this is getting
> too long!
>
> Shane
I am by no means directing this at you Shane. Your post just
happened to spark my brain today. I was wondering if anyone teaches
classes that the average person can afford, not just people who are
professionals learning techniques. I ask because I make a lot of
miniature dollhouse items (food mostly) and I used to teach classes a
few years ago before I got into bead making. I charged for materials of
course, but if someone had thier own materials I only charged $10 on the
average depending on the item we were making. I did this because I was a
navy enlisted wife and no enlisted wives I knew could afford to spend
$100 on a 3 hour class just to make things for fun.
I have never seen anything advertised for less than $50 (I
also mat just be looking in the wrong places). Since I'm into bead
making now I wanted to take a class on making faux jade. It was $75 for
1 1/2 hours! I understand completely that it's a class not a charity,
since I myself taught classes. But I think it's so important for most
anyone to be able to afford classes that teach basic or even advanced
techniques in clay. What does everyone think?
Angela
Barbara Foster
scott & irene <fat...@xpobox.com> wrote in article
<01bd9bd2$f50317e0$4c82cdcf@default>...
...(snipped)...
It's cool, to me,
that this kid is now bursting with desire to go home and CREATE and I'm the
one who inspired them. And I absolutely *love* it when the following year,
at the same show, the same kid brings what they've made to show me.
Nah, it doesn't make a sale where there wasn't one to be made, but it fired
someone up about polymer clay, and probably did something good for the
kid's self-esteem and/or creativity.
GOOD FOR YOU! One thing that will put me on a soapbox fast is people
looking at my work and saying "Oh, I couldn't do that..I'm not that
(talented, creative, inventive)." Creativity is part of the defination of
being "human". But I sometimes wonder, is this the reason some of the
people ask "how to you do that?" They don't think they can "think it up"
on their own?
On the other hand, the folks who boldly try to "swipe" other artist's
ideas and techniques and then sell the exact same thing for less money
should be strung up by their toenails!
It is interesting to me that this whole set of entries has brushed up on
a subject that I have heard repeatedly in Art books, Craft books, and the
various SF/F cons I have gone to...and that is the fact that people really
do NOT have any idea what goes into any piece of work. Our country is too
used to cheap "knock off" work that is made by the ton and very cheaply
overseas. People don't really think that it takes us any longer or that
materials might be better or more expensive here. It all really comes down
to one thing...If you want a "one of a kind" piece (and consequently a
"piece of the artist's soul"), then it is very likely that you are going to
have to PAY for it!
I will now climb down off the soapbox...
Barb
Mamadude
CMDoyon99
I had an experience with a customer recently--she saw one of my mirrors at a
craft show last year and wanted me to cover a mirror she purchased. She wanted
me to quote a price on the spot, I explained to her I'd have to guage the size
of the mirror, time involved, etc. A month would go by, she'd call me and say
she'd bring the mirror by, then not show up. I should've known to not take the
job, ah well, live and learn, right? Finally, she brings over the mirror with
color swatches and we look over some other stuff I did to get ideas for the
style she wants. The mirror itself was a pretty neat project--it was 2 1/2 x 3
feet--much too big for my oven!!! I had to fit and bake individual pieces onto
the mirror, and glue them on. She wanted the mirror done within two
weeks--that was my first mistake. I worked night and day, two weeks go by, she
doesn't come to pick it up. A week later, she stops by, then decides the color
on one of the canes isn't right--I matched it to her color swatch exactly. I
ended up painting over the cane slices. She calls me, doesn't show up, then
drops in with her mother (without calling me) then tells me I charged her too
much money, she's not happy with the design, etc. Grrrr!!!! She ended up
buying the mirror from me, I told her to put it in the bathroom and let it grow
on her. I was grudgingly paid $165 for this trouble, seriously underpaided.
But I learned my lesson--it's hard to turn down work sometimes, but I should've
turned this job down.
Cassie Doyon
Cassie Doyon Designs
http://members.aol.com/cmdoyon99/cddesigns.html
Sherry Bailey
I have often wished the US had "official" recognition of master craftsmen, as
in Japan they have the concept of "Living National Treasures", people who are
at the peak of their careers in creative things who are expected to pass along
their knowledge to apprentices so the skills keep going on.
The value of high level hand craftsmanship somehow started goetting lsot with
the Industiral Revolution in the West, I think, and although there are brief
resurgences, overall I think we really appeal to an educated elite. Everybody
else is market driven and compares us to mass produced cheap labor
versions. Better to sacrifice some of the quality to get it at rock bottom
prices! (I could take that part better if at least there was some admiration
for the good stuff!)
I would argue the point that every human is "creative" though.
aybe you can say every normal human has the capacity to be creative in some
area of interest, but that is only true within certain boundaries. (We can all
be MORE creative, though -- you can learn to grow in that area. THAT I grant
you!) I know it doesn't seem politically correct to say, but there is a wide
spectrum of TALENT and imagination and skill, and no matter what they do, some
people just don't have a strong combination there. (But maybe they are great
cooks or good in math... the visual arts are a different category.) As a
former art teacher, I have always contended that I can teach anyone who WANTS
to learn how to draw from life, to make a reasonably accurate realistic
drawing of something they are looking at. However, not everyone can be taught
to be self-motivating and original. Too many variables.
Sherry
LINDA JACOBS
Barbara Foster
Sherry Bailey <slba...@bu.edu> wrote in article
<6mgj2a$8ea$1...@news1.bu.edu>..
.....(snipped)....
I would argue the point that every human is "creative" though.
aybe you can say every normal human has the capacity to be creative in
some
area of interest, but that is only true within certain boundaries. (We can
all
be MORE creative, though -- you can learn to grow in that area. THAT I
grant
you!) I know it doesn't seem politically correct to say, but there is a
wide
spectrum of TALENT and imagination and skill, and no matter what they do,
some
people just don't have a strong combination there. (But maybe they are
great
cooks or good in math... the visual arts are a different category.) As a
former art teacher, I have always contended that I can teach anyone who
WANTS
to learn how to draw from life, to make a reasonably accurate realistic
drawing of something they are looking at. However, not everyone can be
taught
to be self-motivating and original. Too many variables.
Sherry
Sherry, I agree...to a point. Up until 9 years ago I thought that I
couldn't draw. Imagination I had, but I firmly believed I didn't have the
TALENT, and skill was still in the future. And many (not all)
"noncreative" people are like that! What they need is a "spark", whether
that is a compliment, or a hint (like what is given regularly by this
newsgroup), or an idea or whatever. Maybe they just need to find the right
medium! (And I WOULD consider some cooking as "visual art" - it certainly
looks too pretty to eat!) The thing is, if they're not given encouragement
to TRY they may never find out that they have the Talent OR the skills.
Yes, maybe they'll find out they don't, and maybe alot of bad art will be
made. But who hasn't made bad art? I still think it's important for us to
encourage the wistful and the "hungry" - often that's the only clue they
show to the wonders within.
Barb Foster
Angela
Patti Kimle wrote:
>
> Sherry,
> Though I know you often take a lot of heat for your guts to stand up for
> "truth" (I like that), I want you to know that I appreciate your
> comments. I share your views that there IS the possibility for
> aesthetic judgement and that we, if we are to achieve a place in the
> fine art world, must stand up for those standards among a community
> which does include hobby crafts and crafters. (I am glad that it is such
> an encompassing community--don't get me wrong).
>
> But, there's the matter of perspective which must be included. The
> goals of a person's work (artmaking or hobby crafting) must be taken
> into account in the evaluation of their work. And many don't want to
> evaluate anything. It takes guts to do so. Perhaps it comes from years
> of having to actually evaluate students' works and then explain to them
> why their work got a C or an F when their friends' work got an A
> --which I know you did as an art teacher and I did at the college level
> in an applied design field. Grading work was not my favorite activity,
> but I honed my own aesthetic judgement through the experience. And in
> justifying my grading to the students, I had to force them to step back
> from their own personal involvement in the work and try to take an
> objective view.
>
This is interestin, because I never could understand grading artwork in
an art class. In my college art class we never received grades. We
received compliments, constructive comments and support from the
teacher, but also the class itself. We always had class discussions on
all of the projects so we got a lot of feedback and were able to see
more than just one view (the teacher's) of our work. I don't mean to
say that grading is bad or not helpful, but that class was a wonderful
year for me (I took another class with that same teacher the next
semester) because of all of the positive feedback. There was no pressure
to conform to any kind of standard and by the end of that year I had
seen an enormous improvement in my own work and everyone elses.
Angela
P D RUSS
> It is interesting to me that this whole set of entries has brushed up on
>a subject that I have heard repeatedly in Art books, Craft books, and the
>various SF/F cons I have gone to...and that is the fact that people really
>do NOT have any idea what goes into any piece of work.
I have to say that there have been times I have been upset while selling my
glass or ceramics (my other crafts) at SF cons.
My one of a kind 3-D art doesn't sell at anywhere near the price ofa photo copy
of 2-D art work.
When talking to other artist that do both 3D and 2D art work, they almost
always say they are slowly giving up 3D art in fact of 2D.
Dianne
Dianne >^..^<
Joe
Barbara Foster wrote:
>
> Sherry Bailey <slba...@bu.edu> wrote in article
> <6mgj2a$8ea$1...@news1.bu.edu>..
>
> .....(snipped)....
> I would argue the point that every human is "creative" though.
> aybe you can say every normal human has the capacity to be creative in
> some
>
Guaranteed you have all drawn Mickey Mouse while growing up and
even beads you've seen that someone else has designed.
Before you can get creative you must go through the learning
curve.
Not saying thats what those ledies were doing. But that could
be it.
Azmurf
I come from a "spiritual" background which says that we are here to learn to be
creative, and that's our gift back to the Universe. The trick is figuring out
what our gift is...
And creativity isn't just artistic, remember. Preparing a meal, planting a
garden, rearranging a room, whatever. Creativity expresses Self in a good way.
I didn't think I was creative at all, ten years ago. I followed directions
well, took craft magazines, etc, made lots of stuff. Then I slowly ventured
out of my comfort zone, designed a few things of my own, tried drawing with
"Drawing on the Right Side of Your Brain" and found I could draw; three years
ago found Julia Camerons "The Artist's Way", went through the three month
program, and developed the confidence I needed, and am now having a ball. I
love color, deep, intense, saturated color, sculpt heads, write, etc. Perhaps
not well but that's okay, too!
So Yes, I do think *anybody* can be creative; the talent is there, but people
are afraid to fail, afraid they won't be any good at it. It takes courage and
support to step outside the known, which is what being creative is all about.
Descending from Soapbox with sheepish grin...
Cate
Jim & Kristy/Critter Craft
I agree 100% with Diane. Who are we to decide what is 'good' and what is
'bad' art, anyway? I saw a post a month or so ago about late swappers and the
'poster' said they prefered to wait for late people because there were
usually only a few swappers who worked up to HER caliber and she didn't want
to miss out on their pieces because they were late... blah blah blah.This
shocked and repulsed me! Because of time restraints, I have only been able to
do one small swap and a few individual ones, and EVERY piece is held dear to
me- especially because I know someone spent their time and thought and
creativity in something and then shared their creation with me! Swapping is
such a WONDERFUL process! Thanks everyone! Kristy
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
DABlack
> The thing is, if they're not given encouragement to TRY they may never find
out >that they have the Talent OR the skills. Yes, maybe they'll find out they
don't, and >maybe alot of bad art will be made. But who hasn't made bad art?
I (rabidly) agree with this, but I would also like to add that much "bad art"
is satisfying, joyful, defining of self, etc., for the person who created it .
. .
The important thing to me is that we all find a way to be involved in what we
find interesting! Disdaining so-called "bad" art is a little like some people
who say that heavy people shouldn't wear shorts or bathing suits in public
because *they* don't think it's pleasing to the eye (or the old, or people who
are handicapped, or generalize right down to anyone less-than-"perfect"). I
want a beach where everyone is enjoying the wind, sun, and activitiesas much as
they can. --Everyone has the right to be involved and express themselves, at
whatever level, just like anyone else, and we should support them in enjoying,
discovering, and being willing to take chances. (There's also what Reubens
might think . . . cultural relativism-wise . . .)
Even doing something from a kit involves creativity though:
--the *choosing* of the style/item that most represents "you" --an important
thing for anyone to feel they have the *right* to do (and be). Even though
this is more of a multiple choice format than an essay :-), it often helps us
all begin the process of sorting out what there *is* to be/choose.
(--even the figuring out of how to make sense of the directions--lots of
creativity here sometimes!--and learning that perseverance often yields real,
unimagined results)
-- we don't all design our own clothes, or even make them, or create our own
furniture, pots, houses, utensils, etc., yet we would be happy and supportive
if someone we knew tried one of these things, even if they followed a class or
kit. But not if it were making something from polymer clay?
Let's open our hearts and minds to process (for others too), as well as
product.
And let's allow ourselves to recognize and identify with the frustrating,
spottily wonderful, insecure feelings that all of us have had with many things
we've done while muddling through this thing called life . . .
Diane B.
LINDA JACOBS
I agree with Cate, there is creativity in us all to varying degrees, and
the biggist killer of creativity is fear.
A long, long time ago when I was a little girl I told my grandmother I
wanted to be an artist. She discouraged me because "artists starve".
She didn't realize what an artist she was because she used fabric,
needle & thread instead of paint & canvas.
There are many among us who are artists unawares & I choose to encourage
and nurture that spark when I see it.
I love the clay for the color and the feel of it in my hands. Sometimes
when I start I don't know what will come out, but something always does.
Is there something different about us that draws us to this medium and
causes us to wax philosophical? I hope so!
Linda J
Peggy & Bob
Azmurf wrote:
> I come from a "spiritual" background which says that we are
> here to learn to be
> creative, and that's our gift back to the Universe.
> .
> Creativity expresses Self in a good way.
> people are afraid to fail, afraid they won't be any good at
> it. It takes courage and
> support to step outside the known, which is what being
> creative is all about.
> Descending from Soapbox with sheepish grin...
> Cate
Cate,
Beautifully said. I join you on your soapbox.
Peggy
mailto:bobo...@ix.netcom.com
Angela
Otterfire wrote:
>
> And to me there is a difference between artistic integrity and artistic
> snobery...although i bet if pressed, i couldnt tell you what :)
I could, but it would take a page of venting before I got to the point!
LOL!
Angela
DBuck26803
It's like Miss Frizzle says on the Magic School Bus,
"Take chances,
make mistakes,get messy!"
Amazing how much you can learn(or relearn) from your kid's books and TV shows!
Jody Bishel
Pörrö Törrönen
dab...@aol.com,Usenet6 writes:
Friends,
I want to add my pennies to this soup too
(Did they say that if there are enough cooks making the soup it definitely
is lasting long time...)
Sometimes the attitude "art against crafts" here bothers me (or was that my
insecurities ;-)
IMHO not all that is unique is art, but not all that is "a repeat" is
crafts.
(Good parable: all persons are unique but not all the parents are
artists...)
To me art is generally "expressing something". Although I love to express
myself I also love crafting, for instance making something that someone can
wear. I mostly do crafting although I design all I make myself. I have to
admit that I really have only recently learned that I have some mild
artistic skills, and I definitely am the first to deny them all. I take
pride from definiting myself as crafting polyclayer: the need for design
comes from the need to make, not the other way around. I see nothing bad at
all in that, in fact I think that was the way old masters worked. (I would
love to name some, but maybe even my arrogance is not THAT grate)
I myself hate repeating someone elses designs, but that is just my stubborn
side that is making my life miserable and claying difficult ;-) I have this
"I did it my way"- obsession, it´s also "my way" of learning.
But, and I strongly want to emphasize this point, I am not good example of
rest of the world. There are plenty of people who learn better with
imitating. Some can read the instructions from books and others have to
take glasses to understand the same thing. Some need seven years to achieve
similar results than other seem to get in two hours. And, as sad it is,
there are also the copycats. But honestly: there are abusive people
everywhere. Polyclay is not changing all people exposed to direct contact
with it to angels, although it is damn close to "utopia that works". (IMHO;
IMHO;IMHO ! )
We are not one person although we usually seem to think we are so similar.
But there are millions of others there, and if we really want to introduce
our common lover, PC, to them I think we have to realize there are several
ways to do polyclaying. There is not one holy truth in this one either.
We all imitate. We all use techniques that were not originally our
creation. We use colors that someone has taught us to use. We make shapes
that have been done thousands of years... Imitating and repeating can not
be escaped. What makes us personal (or artistic) is the unique cocktail we
present when making something.
(Big soapbox or then maybe I got carried away and forgot to return my
pedestal to the next speaker....)
PöRRö
Ps. Is "tired" good excuse ?
--
Po...@online.tietokone.fi
Sarjassamme moderneja satuaarteita:
Jotkut pillipiiparit vievät sekä palkan että lapsuuden,
mutta jättävät rotat kaupungin kaduille.
Dzeffren2
At my last show (actually my first also, but who's counting??) a woman came
over with her 12 year old daughter and looked over my table. Now, I'm not Pier
Voulkos or CZC, but the items I was selling were pretty cool. The daughter
wanted to buy a keychain or something, and she said to her daughter "Why don't
you * make* these? I have that whole pile of clay in the basement that you got
for your birthday 2 years ago." Kid said "Okay, Mom," and they left. I hope
she does go down to the basement one day to discover the joys of PC (we can
always use more talent in our local guild!) but I can't help peeking at her
keys every time I see her to see if the years it will take her to get started
was worth the $6 she would have spent on the keychain!
Donna in St. Louis
scott & irene
Pörrö Törrönen <po...@online.tietokone.fi> wrote
<snip>
> To me art is generally "expressing something".
Ah, Pörrö, sometimes you put into words something I didn't even realize I
thought or felt! I have printed many of your posts and I label them "Wise
Words from Pörrö" (remember your post on the beauty of snow? I reread it
often). "Utopia that works." I like that.
Anyhow, I read somewhere what I think is the best explanation of the
difference between art and craft:
Art is pure expression and craft is pure technique. At any given time, we
are somewhere on the line between the two, sometimes closer to one,
sometimes closer to the other.
That satisfies me, personally.
P D RUSS
> Who are we to decide what is 'good' and what is
>'bad' art, anyway?
I've seen some art I would call "very bad" sell for some mightly high prices.
Dianne >^..^<
Echo 01
Hum. I wish to veer the subject a bit.
Setting the stage:
As some of you know I have started into the larger (in size) sculptures. One I
have been working on isa 'Skate boarding boy'.
Well my #2 daughter's #1 squeeze, in an effort to be helpfull, and who is a
skate boarder, brought over a skate boarding magazine.
The question.
Have any of you had your design/creation process dashed because of this type of
input?
I mean I had a purfect image of what I was doing till this extra bit of data
came into my life. Now I have lost interest in the whole project.
I have the nude body, all upper limbs done and was working out to the lower
extremities.
Why a nude body?
I do it this way even if I am clothing the sculptur because if I get the 'nude'
body right then the clothes, even though they are made out of clay, will hang
right.
Lysle
Jim & Kristy/Critter Craft
This is a normal reaction, Lysle.I have always felt that when something like
this happens it interrupts your creative cycle. Usually, if I put the piece
away and work on something else it will "clear up' after a short while and I
can finish up the piece.It also helps to yell at whoever did it to you, but I
wouldn't recommend this with a daughter's boyfriend! I only have boys, but one
is married now and I am verrrrry careful!Another aspect of this is when you
finish a piece and people give you their input on how you could of done it
differently!
In article <199806220721...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Vince Rhea
Lysle--
I understand this frustration and it's amazing how much better some things turn out
when just from the imagination---
But wanted to comment about sculpting the nude body first
> Why a nude body?
> I do it this way even if I am clothing the sculptur because if I get the 'nude'
> body right then the clothes, even though they are made out of clay, will hang
> right.
I sculpt the nude body first, also and bake it so the clay is not sticky and if the
piece is large, I powder it lightly to help prevent the clay clothing from
sticking. When working on it over a long period of time, the powder helps a lot.
I can remove and recut pieces as needed. I also use a thin layer of translucent on
the back of almost all my clay fabrics. It seems to give a lot more strength and
the drapability is better. I'm only on my second large piece, so anyone with
anymore suggestions, please post. There's still a lot I could learn.Jeanne
>
>
> Lysle
Azmurf
One of my favorite quotes is "Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." You
have to start with "beginner's mind" and not get intimidated. Julia Cameron's
"prayer" that also helps is, "Lord, I'll take care of the quantity, you take
care of the quality."
I'm one of those who starts out by imitating. Particularly in polymer clay,
which has so many possibilities, I see something neat, and make a copy as close
as I can get it to learn the technique. I'm doing Maureen Carlson's little
kids right now from her book, six of them. I've learned her hand method
(doesn't work for me, because the fingers are tiny, and the suckers break if
you look at them); how to make the mouths, eyes, etc. Now I have the
techniques, I've done a little guy with a paper airplane and a politically
correct Little Miss Muffet who is sharing her curds and whey with the spider.
I wouldn't sell the copies, of course, but I learned a lot.
For me, the first six were craft, eg, technique, the last two were still
crafty, but more my own.
Oh, it is early...my mind eludes me!
(removing soapbox, pushing it under the computer table)
Cate
Claylady65
>Is there something different about us that draws us to this medium and
>causes us to wax philosophical? I hope so!
>
>Linda J
The fumes????
Peggy & Bob
LynnDel,
Do you have a new email? I tried to write you last night
about your switch plates but the mail was returned even after
I "took out the lie".
And for anyone else, I'll repeat my post of a few days ago
that some of you have already responded to.
I know someone setting up a switch plate store and is looking
for creative switch plates and outlet plates. Let me know if
you are interested in talking to him. I, in no way, have any
financial connection with this person-just helping him out.
Thanks,
Peggy
--
mailto:bobo...@ix.netcom.com
Echo 01
>>and a politically correct Little Miss Muffet who is sharing her curds and
whey with the spider. <<
hey to be politically correct it is Ms Muffet. <G>
ech...@aol.com
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~lshields/
Eepipkins
In article <6mlhh3$3pg$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Jim & Kristy/Critter
Craft<jim...@wcnet.org> writes:
>Another aspect of this is when you
>finish a piece and people give you their input on how you could of done it
>differently!
ARGH!!! THis I understand perfectly Kristy! I grew up in a very creative
family.....this is basically a good thing, but they have their own ideas
too...I wish people would learn to only give advice when it is requested. I
love them any way..and have given them all clay...so now when they feel the
need to "change" my ideas...I tell them, "Go ahead!" BTW~No one has yet<G>!
{{{{{HUGS}}}}}
Pip aka Beth
Shoot for the moon!!! If you miss, you'll land among the stars! ~Les Brown
SHANEANGEL
In article <01bd9b80$4d22fe20$2725...@crc3.concentric.net>, "Bevery Michie"
<gmi...@concentric.net> writes:
>What I love is at the show I just did the folks who pick up the items,
>scrutinize them and ask "what did you attach this with...how did you make
>it?...can I photograph it so I can make it myself?....where do you buy the
>components?..." etc. I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of
>flattery...
>
>Bev
I had a woman come up to our booth at a show a couple years ago. She came to me
and apologized and told me she had a confession to make. Of course every other
customer there was all ears. She told me she had bought an angel the previous
year with the intention of copying it. She rolled her eyes as she told
everybody all about how she tried and tried to get it to work but couldn't and
then announced that the angels were worth every penny I charged. I was very
flattered.
Then there are those who are just plain nieve. I think they have no idea they
are breaking the rules, they just assume. I had a woman who called me ( she's a
customer but basicly a total stranger) a couple of weeks ago. Her daughter was
in visiting and they had decided that they wanted to learn how to make angels.
They wanted to drive up that same day and wondered if I could show them the
studio and how I made angels so her daughter could do it too.
I had a couple who also made an appointment with me to see the studio and
angels. For some reason they came across to me as being investors or something
and persuaded me to see them. As it turns out they wanted to do a partnership
thing. I would make angels for them on consignment and they would sell them for
me on a circut. They were sure the sales of the angels would cover their travel
expenses and I would make money too. The guy was trying to convince me that
they would sell really well. I politely explained that we already did that
ourselves and that yes, the angels sell really well. I would be happy to sell
him angels at wholesale prices for resale. The best thing about that day is I
had cleaned up the studio for their visit. Something I had been putting off a
long time.
I suppose what gets on my nerves the worst is people (usually my kids friends
moms) who have never picked up a piece of clay want to come over for an
afternoon so I can show them how I make those 'neat things out of clay'. There
are a lot of people who don't want to take a class from me but just want to
drop by sometime so I can show them how to make stuff.
Geez! I suppose I could go on and on about wierd requests. But this is getting
too long!
Shane
SHANEANGEL
In article <01bd9bd2$f50317e0$4c82cdcf@default>, "scott & irene"
<fat...@xpobox.com> writes:
>If it's the right place, right time, right
>kid, we can launch into a technical discussion about polymer clay and its
>properties. Mostly kids have the problem that their Sculpey broke or their
>Fimo is too hard to knead. I tell 'em what they can do to solve this, we
>talk about different techniques, how to use armatures, the importance of
>letting canes rest, and so on and so on. The parent, meanwhile, waits
>patiently while their kid is getting technical advice. It's cool, to me,
>that this kid is now bursting with desire to go home and CREATE and I'm the
>one who inspired them. And I absolutely *love* it when the following year,
>at the same show, the same kid brings what they've made to show me.
>
Irene,
Ditto! This has happened to me more than once! I guess kids (Jr. & High School)
do clay a lot. I would be tempted to get a class going for that age group and
advertise it at the schools or at their hang-outs. Could do it for cheap, say
20.00 per kid for a day and teach them the basics or help them with what they
are trying to accomplish. They would probably really go for it and besides,
with all the art cuts in education you may just be training a future
professional!
Shane
NarigonC
In article <199806231916...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
shane...@aol.com (SHANEANGEL) writes:
>I suppose what gets on my nerves the worst is people (usually my kids friends
>moms) who have never picked up a piece of clay want to come over for an
>afternoon so I can show them how I make those 'neat things out of clay'.
>There
>are a lot of people who don't want to take a class from me but just want to
>drop by sometime so I can show them how to make stuff.
>
>
Oh, boy, I get that one too, and I'm not near the artist some of you are. Like
I can bring everybody up to speed on something that's taken me several years to
learn in just one easy afternoon??? I don't know how many people have asked to
show them how to do what I do so they can sell some too.
Carol
P D RUSS
>but if someone had thier own materials I only charged $10 on the
>average depending on the item we were making. I did this because I was a
>navy enlisted wife and no enlisted wives I knew could afford to spend
>$100 on a 3 hour class just to make things for fun.
I'm also the wife of an enlisted Navy man (who retires this month---thank God)
and I can't afford $100 for a class either.
Dianne >^..^<
Sherry Bailey
Ok, group -- everybody take a DEEEP breath!!
Some people are reinterpreting this thread into something different.
I don't think anybody here ever advocated DISCOURAGING anybody with any level
of sincere interest in polymer clay -- no rude remarks, no saying "drop dead",
nothing like that at all.
But there is a difference between appreciating quality and artistry and
ENcouraging it, and simply thinking that what anybody else does is
automatically wonderful! It may be fun, it may be satisfying, it may be
stimulating, it may even be "creative" (depending on how you define the term)
but it may not be intrinsically and independently "artistic". (Definitions of
terms are really critical to arguments about this area, and you need to be
really specific and not so interpretive. If "to you" anything is art, then
your definition of art is meaningless and not usable for communication.
There are people out there (some in this group) who seem mortally
offended by TRUTH. We are NOT all equal. Some things are better INTRINSICALLY
than other things. Some of us have degrees (meaning years of training and
experience) in fine art, and ARE in a position to declare in many cases "this
is art but this is not". Some people see this as elitism, and in one way it is
-- but really it is knowing that for specific discussable reasons, aesthetic
and technical, some things fit the criteria, some things don't, and some
things really fall into a subjective area where *I* happen to think "the
Emperor has no clothes" often applies! ;^)
BUT!!!! EVEN if something is NOT art, that doesn't mean it's not worth
doing. We categorize things as art partly to indicate a level of desirability
which in real life also suggests a material value, CASH value if you will... I
think most people here would prefer to own one object (inherited or gift, we
will say, since that eliminates the need to consider priorities for spending)
which is generally acclaimed as "fine art" over something quite similar that
is not. (We won't get into the emotional nostalgia issues of "things made by a
mediocre artist vs things made by our own kids!" Obviously there are lots of
factors going into what we choose to live with.)
The danger that I see and which promted me to comment here, though, is this
recurring tendency I see to think there is something MEAN-spirited about being
judgemental and critical and evaluative. That is simply not true! It may be
wrong to judge PEOPLE especially based on things out of their control and in
ways that impair their lives, but the same does NOT hold true for material
things, including art and craft objects. The highest level of admiration
JUSTIFIABLY goes to the person who DESIGNS their own work in an exceptionally
original and aesthetically pleasing way and CRAFTS it with the highest
possible level of craftmanship, with the fewest possible flaws (none unless
desired and deliberately done). Personally , I give extra points if they do it
themselves ("the hands of the master") as opposed to farming out bits to
employees even if they train them.
Somewhere in the middle are people who do their own design but maybe it's not
quite as aesthetically pleasing, or maybe doesn't quite achieve the desired
effect, or maybe isn't QUITE as well crafted as it could be... People who do
good work (maybe not "excellent") and who are still developing. They may or
may not qualify as "artists" but they are moving in that direction and growing
in skill and expertise.
Somewhere near the least admirable end of the spectrum are people who putz
around for fun but aren't going anywhere. Now I do NOT mean that they should
be discouraged or "scorned", just not held up as examples, and admired. 'Least
admired' does NOT mean the same thing as 'NOT admired'. (Please think about
that before getting mad!) These are people who have fun, who do kits, who are
not worried about BEING admired, they do what they do to please themselves and
that is perfectly fine. (It is NOT "art", but so what?!)
Then, past that end and into the "un-admired" category are thieves of other
people's ideas and copyrights. These people may even have considerable
technical skill, but since they are parasites on the imaginations and talents
of others, they are not only NOT artists, they are a kind of forger. A real
Rolex watch has value. (I think more value that it's really worth, but that's
just me!) But a fake Rolex is an embarrassment. Unfortunately, there are those
who will buy them anyway and those who are uneducated enough to be impressed
by the fakes, thinking they are real. The same thing can happen in art --
people will buy beads that they think are great looking (and are) made by
someone who took a City Zen Cane workshop and never varied the formula they
learned in class. Anybody can probably develop enough skill (if they practice
and want to) to COPY a real artist's work, assuming that the real thing isn't
too complex or something. It's being the one who comes up with something
WORTH copying that separates the "men from the boys" or the artists form the
non artists, or the owners of copyrights from the violators of copyrights!
So I guess this "essay" boils down to three things.
1. Like it or not there IS a difference (aesthetic and technical) between fine
art and hobby crafting for fun. (And a wide spectrum in between, where we all
move back and forth with individula objects all the time, probably.)
2. There is nothing wrong with being discerning and appreciating quality --
"judgement" is not a four-letter word, even though in recent years people seem
to want to think it is.
3. There is nothing wrong with NOT making art -- it's perfectly fine to simply
have fun and playful.
(Also, although it was more implied than said, I would also make the point
that the more educated the "masses" are about what is good and what is not
good art/quality/craftsmanship or whatever, the better for us as people who
strive to create high quality things. Would you prefer to hang a poster of a
famous masterpiece in your living room, or an original painting by a less
masterful local artist who you happen to love? The original painting the
poster was made from was fine art which nobody would argue, so the aesthetics
of the design are probably very high level. The local painting might be at an
earlier level of skill, or maybe just as high but made by someone who never
got famous. *I* personally prefer the original art, knowing that I have the
original not a mass produced copy of something which might be MORE wonderful
IN THE ORIGINAL. But there are frame shops all over America selling wall art
where the FRAME is more valuable than it's contents! And that is partly
because the frame requires hand work and materials, the mass produced "art"
inside it doesn't. Would you rather have a necklace made of third-world import
cane slice beads or something by Pier Voulkos? Y'know?? We are educated here
to appreciate and recognize the artistic contributions of people like Voulkos,
Dustin, and all the others. THAT is part of what we should be passing along!)
(Oh, and as to the idea of valuing or not valuing things in swaps -- that is
irrelevant. Some people treasure mementos of friends, some don't. Some want
samples to teach with, some don't. Some things arrive intact some arrive
damaged, some are well crafted, some are not... It is all very subjective and
each individual has their own expectations and needs... so every swap
experience is different for every swapper. After you have been in a dozen
swaps, some with 30 pieces, your appreciation for each and every item may
change -- or it might NOT! ;^) )
Wow, I really babbled on that time! (Sorry it was so long! Obviously the
philosophy involved interests me!)
Sherry
Laura McGuinn
Patti Kimle
Sherry,
Though I know you often take a lot of heat for your guts to stand up for
"truth" (I like that), I want you to know that I appreciate your
comments. I share your views that there IS the possibility for
aesthetic judgement and that we, if we are to achieve a place in the
fine art world, must stand up for those standards among a community
which does include hobby crafts and crafters. (I am glad that it is such
an encompassing community--don't get me wrong).
But, there's the matter of perspective which must be included. The
goals of a person's work (artmaking or hobby crafting) must be taken
into account in the evaluation of their work. And many don't want to
evaluate anything. It takes guts to do so. Perhaps it comes from years
of having to actually evaluate students' works and then explain to them
why their work got a C or an F when their friends' work got an A
--which I know you did as an art teacher and I did at the college level
in an applied design field. Grading work was not my favorite activity,
but I honed my own aesthetic judgement through the experience. And in
justifying my grading to the students, I had to force them to step back
from their own personal involvement in the work and try to take an
objective view.
I hope everyone realizes that Sherry is advocating a perspective that we
can (or we can choose not to) aspire to. But she is not denigrating
anyone for their choices. And she is not discouraging anyone's
particiapation or right to engage in creativity with polymer clay.
Patti
Sherry Bailey wrote:
more snipped...
JPatter3
>I had a woman come up to our booth at a show a couple years ago. She came to
>me
>and apologized and told me she had a confession to make. Of course every
>other
>customer there was all ears. She told me she had bought an angel the previous
>year with the intention of copying it. She rolled her eyes as she told
>everybody all about how she tried and tried to get it to work but couldn't
>and
>then announced that the angels were worth every penny I charged. I was very
>flattered.
>
>
LOL Shane, don't you just love those customers!
When I do shows I usually bring along some supplies and demonstrate if it gets
a little slow, I have had other vendors who think they are giving me good
advice, tell me that I shouldn't give away my tricks and secrets. I really
have to laugh at that, I have found that the customer who says "I can do that"
and goes home to do it usually becomes one of my best customers. Face it, what
we do is addicting but it takes practice to become good at it. And Ohhhhh how
I love the feel of clay in my hands. In fact when I think about it I bet the
real reason I bring clay with me to shows is that I would go through withdrawal
without it.
Jenny P.
BDRAI
I grade my art students on attendance, participation, etc., but not on the
quality of their work. If they put in sincere effort and do their best work, I
think the results are wonderful and deserving of support and encouragement
rather than judgement.
JMHO,
Nuchi <3
Otterfire
Sherry...
I really enjoyed reading that post and might even print it for some reference
at a later date.( i am really into printing stuff)...
I have never really thought if myself as a polymerclay artist. Because of the
things i currently make out of clay. There are other things that i am more
*artist* like in. I personally feel i am FINE CRAFT (or on my way
anyhow)...and sure some of my things are more high brow than others, that is
the nature of the beast!
The one thing i have noticed about most polymer clayers i have met (generally
on other boards because i am newer to this one) they see all work for what it
is worth in its own way. Meaning, that my interpretation of a given project is
not the way they would have handled it, but they can see the value to someone
or some particular niche.
Patti Kimle
BDRAI wrote:
First of all, you must recognize that my post began with my
agreeing with Sherry that there ARE levels of talent and artistic
ability and that aesthetic judgements CAN be made according to various
criteria. Second, I was teaching in an applied design field (apparel
design) and my students were intending to seek careers in this field
upon completing their coursework and graduation. Third, I was required
by the University I worked at to assign grades. It was the policy of
the department that said grades be assigned according to standards
developed for each courses. A set of core competencies I can tell you
faculty worked hours and hours in committee meetings to develop and
articulate. Finally, the students were made well aware of the criteria
upon which they would be judged at the outcome of each project (i.e.,
design concept, function of the product, technical quality of the work,
etc).
I didn't and still don't believe that it was my job to make students
feel all warm and fuzzy about themselves. I was training students for a
highly competitive field. If they never received criticism in their
training or were evaluated on their performance, what a wakeup call the
first month of their first REAL job would be for them! If I had told
them all they were wonderful, and not encouraged them to learn to detach
their emotional investment in their work and develop a critical eye, I
would have actually been doing them a disservice, giving them a false
sense of themselves and of the field they wanted to get into. They
would have been crushed by their first experiences as a designer's
assistant (read gopher!) and would have been more seriously damaged when
their own economic situation was involved (salary) rather than just a
grade on a project.
And let's face it, not every student who, as a freshman, dreamed of
being a famous designer had the talent and drive to survive in the
field. Sometimes it was better for them to see this from a class and
find a major which was better suited for their particular talents and
skills. The same could be said of art students. This may sound
heartless, but its a fact of life. At my university, the art department
was probably even more harsh and competetive than my department. But
that, in my opinion is good. Art students in many places leave school
with absolutely no concept about how to support themselves as artists.
Many end up disappointed and in other fields because they were never
taught the Business side of the art world.
Finally, if your post was referring to primary education, I would be
somewhat more sympathetic to your point of view, but not much. Every
child should to learn that creativity and expression is their
birthright. But I think teachers can find simple things to give them
grades on (even if every kid gets an A or B) such as following
directions, etc.
Patti
Sherry Bailey
BDRAI (bd...@aol.com) wrote:
:I grade my art students on attendance, participation, etc., but not on the
:quality of their work. If they put in sincere effort and do their best work, I
:think the results are wonderful and deserving of support and encouragement
:rather than judgement.
I used to teach high school art (Art I). (My collegue and boss was a
Renaissance High Master kind of teacher -- VERY demanding. I was expected to
screen the Art II students for him and not send on anybody who didn't meet his
expectations for seriousness and skill, so some of my choices were mandated.)
But my approach was that if the students showed up, paid attention, didn't
cause trouble, and TRIED to do the assignments, the worst grade they could get
was a C. C means baseline. C means living up to the agreement made when
signing up for the class and no more. Grades went down if behavior and
attitudes were bad, and when kids didn't do the work. Grades went up if my
perception was that they were trying, learning something, caring about what
they did. A's were reserved for excellence. Usually, but not always, that
meant students who had talent and tried and produced outstanding examples of
the work. I think bell curves are nonsense and generally really mean the
teacher failed half the class in teaching them something. But at the same
time, not everyone deserves the recognition of achievement that an A is
supposed to be on a 4 point scale.
Worked pretty well for me.
Sherry
Bevery Michie
> I am by no means directing this at you Shane. Your post just
> happened to spark my brain today. I was wondering if anyone teaches
> classes that the average person can afford, not just people who are
> professionals learning techniques. I ask because I make a lot of
> miniature dollhouse items (food mostly) and I used to teach classes a
> few years ago before I got into bead making. I charged for materials of
> course, but if someone had thier own materials I only charged $10 on the
> average depending on the item we were making. I did this because I was a
> navy enlisted wife and no enlisted wives I knew could afford to spend
> $100 on a 3 hour class just to make things for fun.
> I have never seen anything advertised for less than $50 (I
> also mat just be looking in the wrong places). Since I'm into bead
> making now I wanted to take a class on making faux jade. It was $75 for
> 1 1/2 hours! I understand completely that it's a class not a charity,
> since I myself taught classes. But I think it's so important for most
> anyone to be able to afford classes that teach basic or even advanced
> techniques in clay. What does everyone think?
>
> Angela
>
I have taught miniature clay classes too, and they have the advantage of
being "sponsored" by the mini shop many times - the store would pay me a
set amount per student, and would sell the supplies to the class. They
didn't make a lot of money out of it, but got the repeat buisness for the
effort. What PC needs is more polyclay shops!
Jim & Kristy/Critter Craft
GEE, Angela! I'm getting email every day that agees with us on this! You
really struck home on this one! Kristy
In article <358C5F...@prodigy.net>,
AC...@prodigy.net wrote:
>
> Patti Kimle wrote:
> >
> > Sherry,
> > Though I know you often take a lot of heat for your guts to stand up for
> > "truth" (I like that), I want you to know that I appreciate your
> > comments. I share your views that there IS the possibility for
> > aesthetic judgement and that we, if we are to achieve a place in the
> > fine art world, must stand up for those standards among a community
> > which does include hobby crafts and crafters. (I am glad that it is such
> > an encompassing community--don't get me wrong).
> >
> > But, there's the matter of perspective which must be included. The
> > goals of a person's work (artmaking or hobby crafting) must be taken
> > into account in the evaluation of their work. And many don't want to
> > evaluate anything. It takes guts to do so. Perhaps it comes from years
> > of having to actually evaluate students' works and then explain to them
> > why their work got a C or an F when their friends' work got an A
> > --which I know you did as an art teacher and I did at the college level
> > in an applied design field. Grading work was not my favorite activity,
> > but I honed my own aesthetic judgement through the experience. And in
> > justifying my grading to the students, I had to force them to step back
> > from their own personal involvement in the work and try to take an
> > objective view.
> >
>
> This is interestin, because I never could understand grading artwork in
> an art class. In my college art class we never received grades. We
> received compliments, constructive comments and support from the
> teacher, but also the class itself. We always had class discussions on
> all of the projects so we got a lot of feedback and were able to see
> more than just one view (the teacher's) of our work. I don't mean to
> say that grading is bad or not helpful, but that class was a wonderful
> year for me (I took another class with that same teacher the next
> semester) because of all of the positive feedback. There was no pressure
> to conform to any kind of standard and by the end of that year I had
> seen an enormous improvement in my own work and everyone elses.
>
> Angela
Otterfire
Ok, i think this might be off topic so i am being safe here!
(since i am new and all)
When i was in high school, our art teacher wanted us to write what we thought
art was.
THAT was the assignment, so being the little non conformist peace loving chick,
i TOLD him what i thought art was. AND i got an F for my opinion. Now the
reason i got an F was, it was not an acceptable definition (which is NOT what
he asked for.....but anyway). I got creative which i thought was something
that artists usually like. What a blow to my artistic self esteem (took me
years to recover <g>)
If i had been a snob about it, i could have said the crap that he threw around
would never be considered art even if it was discovered 1,000,000 years from
now..but I am not so i didnt.
After that i did sort of form an opinion about some teachers...those who can
do! those who cant become teachers (sad, but in this case i feel true). <~~~NOW
that was snobbery at its best!
CJ
I guess I can safely post here about my experiences....
when I was in High School, I had 2 art teachers, both teaching
different things. One class was still life, and I hated it.
The teacher was one of those snobs who wanted your art to conform
to her idea of what art was. My other art teacher taught me how
to look at things with my own eye, and I did really well in his
class. He taught us how to work with earth clay and we also
did some drawing of figures, etc. I remember one time he was gone,
and the substitute teacher was just like the other art teacher....
I remember drawing a picture of a barn and silo, and he told me
that there werent enough bricks in the silo. ????? I drew
what I saw, so I didnt know that I was supposed to count the
friggin bricks. When the regular teacher got back, I told him that
I couldnt put in each brick because I didnt know how many were in
the silo. He got really pissed at the sub. I guess I wasnt the only
kid who had been told to draw the way the sub wanted.
This attitude still really bothers me. I dont understand the
comments that what I do isnt art, just because someone who
thinks they are a real artist can judge my work that way. If
I am not an artist in their eyes, then I must be a crafter,
and that means I am not worth even noticing. To me, that is
such snobbery as to be almost bigotry. I dont like some things
that others feel are 'real' art, but that doesnt mean that
they are worthless. It just means that I dont like it. And
last I checked, I had every right to not like something
just because someone says I should. I have always wanted to
go to art school, but if this is the attitude that I'll
get out of it, then forget it. I'd rather be happy doing what
my heart feels is right than to destroy the feelings that
someone has when they look at something they like. I dont
ever want to come across as those people who are made fun of
for being so prentenious at art shows that they stand in front
of a blank wall and discuss the merits of an all white wall.
That just makes me really sad.
Well, I feel better now. thanks for letting me have my
2 cents here!
[please excuse the spelling errors. My fingers arent as nimble
as they once were, as those of you with arthritis will no doubt
will have no problems relating to! And, not all errors are mine;
bit hits on the modem happen]
~~~~~
CJ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
remove * to reply
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Polymer Clayhouse
http://www.cde.com/%7Elunytune/index_html.htm
CJ's Hacienda
http://www.cde.com/~lunytune/CJs.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Claylady65
I remember my high school art classes...we had an excellent teacher, who guided
rather than dictated our creativity. When I graduated, I was all set to go
into "fine arts", then I encountered for the first time the art snobs. A
building full of stuffy people who truly believed you could categorize what was
art and what was not - and graded accordingly. Can you imagine what would
have become of Picasso in that environment? Or Van Gogh? I once read a book
that Charles Schultz flunked his art classes in school because he wasn't doing
what the rest of the class was doing. My god! Punishing people for having
original thoughts! I think it would be much more constructive for us to put
aside the labels and again concentrate on becoming the best
artist/crafter/designer/whatever we can be.
Theresa
You say to-mAY-to, I say to-mAH-to!! LOL
Vince Rhea
Claylady65 wrote:
Theresa---understanding this well but what I really want to know....
Do you say Po-TAY-to or Po-TAH-to?
Jeanne
Sherry Bailey
With regard to teaching and fees, there are a bunch of possibilities.
First off, unless you are sort of being a "volunteer" or an unpaid/low paid
"polymer clay advocate" (and whether or not to do that is certainly a personal
choice, and probably an admirable one) anyone who teaches polymer clay skills
(or anything else) deserves to get a decent base wage for the work. (As those
who do it know, it takes a fair aount of time and effor and material BEFORE
you ever start to teach to prepare for the job. THAT time has to be accounted
for in fees as well as the actual face-to-face time.)
Assuming you teach in order to make a living or supplement one, you have to
determine what your needs and expectations are as well as the value of what
you are teaching and to whom you are directing your marketing.
Stores often sponsor craft classes -- sometimes their employees (as at
Michael's, at least local to me) are expected to do most of the teaching on
company time, so their pay is basically their normal hourly or salaried
income, and they teach as part of their job description. Outsiders who come in
to teach in that kind of environment (again, based on the local situation) are
stuck with the level of pay the store can generate from the fees they have
established for their employees. (I was offered 90% of the fees, at ten
dollars a person, for THREE hours of teaching, and I couldn't cancel even if
only one person signed up. So I could be "forced" to spend money on supplies
and prep for teaching one person for $3 an hour. I would have LOST money!)
In some cases, people want to teach kids and kids classes are generally cheap
since they are a frill and it's the only way to get them filled.
In some cases people want to teach adults with some real interest. One way to
screen out the not-very-interested is to raise the fees. It may seem unfair,
but it is also limiting the number of students, so the income generated will
be smaller, but the class is also more likely to be "intense" and one hopes
helpful.
Eventually you get to the level of the Big Names in clay. If teaching disrupts
their production time, requires them to travel (wasting even more time from
creating for their business, and costing them money besides), and gives away
the special techniques and ideas that differentiates them from the masses,
you can see why they will be more expensive. Yes, definitely, there will be a
lot of people who "can't afford" to take the classes, and that may be
unfortunate. Porsche can't afford to sell their cars for the same price as a
Hundai either!
Personally, not being altruistic enough to teach for free (except to my guild,
where I get taught for free as well!) I think anyone teaching ought to take
home AT LEAST what they would get for a day job for that time frame. So, say
you would earn $20 an hour working at something (not necessarily clay related,
but something you can really do), and a class will run three hours. I think
you should take home at least $60 plus expenses for doing the job, and the
class size should be whatever you are comfortable with. (Maybe ten people). If
your expenses are $20 and you put in an hour of prep making handouts or
samples, the total fee would be $100, or $10 per person with that size
class. If the class were a fundraising event for a guild or something, tack on
that amount and maybe the class will cost the students $13-15 each. That is
the bottom line and if you are good or teaching something especially
interesting or appealing or whatever, it could go up from there. The bigger
your name, the more "up" it can go!! (And the smaller the class or longer it
runs, the more per person, as well.)
There is something to be said in our society for the fact that people respect
what they pay for. (I know of any number of people who marked UP an art object
for sale because it wasn't getting much interest and THEN sold it -- partially
because the higher price raised it's perceived value in some weird way!)
Good luck to anybody who teaches, by the way! Been there, done that, don't
much like it!! If it's fun for you, that's wonderful! We need more like that
out there!
Sherry
Sherry Bailey
Jim & Kristy/Critter Craft (jim...@wcnet.org) wrote:
: GEE, Angela! I'm getting email every day that agees with us on this! You
: really struck home on this one! Kristy
: > This is interestin, because I never could understand grading artwork in
: > an art class. In my college art class we never received grades.
<snip>
GEE, Kristy -- I'm getting e-mail every day DISagreeing with this! Do you
suppose it invalidates YOUR e-mail? Or maybe only that (as we already know)
opinions vary?
Sherry
Sherry Bailey
Angela (AC...@prodigy.net) wrote:
: Patti Kimle wrote:
: >
: > But, there's the matter of perspective which must be included.
(As well as TAUGHT, eh!?) (Sorry, drawing class pun...)
: > The
: > goals of a person's work (artmaking or hobby crafting) must be taken
: > into account in the evaluation of their work. And many don't want to
: > evaluate anything. It takes guts to do so. Perhaps it comes from years
: > of having to actually evaluate students' works and then explain to them
: > why their work got a C or an F when their friends' work got an A
: > --which I know you did as an art teacher and I did at the college level
: > in an applied design field. Grading work was not my favorite activity,
: > but I honed my own aesthetic judgement through the experience. And in
: > justifying my grading to the students, I had to force them to step back
: > from their own personal involvement in the work and try to take an
: > objective view.
: >
: This is interestin, because I never could understand grading artwork in
: an art class. In my college art class we never received grades. We
: received compliments, constructive comments and support from the
: teacher, but also the class itself. We always had class discussions on
: all of the projects so we got a lot of feedback and were able to see
: more than just one view (the teacher's) of our work. I don't mean to
: say that grading is bad or not helpful, but that class was a wonderful
: year for me (I took another class with that same teacher the next
: semester) because of all of the positive feedback. There was no pressure
: to conform to any kind of standard and by the end of that year I had
: seen an enormous improvement in my own work and everyone elses.
Well, there are college art classes (in some schools) which are electives for
fun -- that sounds like yours.
Then there are the high level intensely competitive college art classes for art
majors (fine art/studio art/craft/etc.), graphic design majors, art teaching
majors and so on. (The graphic arts majors in my school in the early 70's,
before computer graphics, were required to turn in camera-ready flawless
work. If they got a speck of dirt on something, they had to start over and
most regularly pulled all-nighters, often on speed, in order to even PASS, let
along get high grades.) I was in competition with hundreds of students from
begger, better schools (my high school had one general art class. I also took
two years of art independent study, which MEANT "independent", NO teahcer of
any kind, therefore of limited value, because I was a priveleged honor
student.) Many of those students had four years of the kind of teaching I was
just starting to get then, in college. As well as some of them having more
talent. This is NOT unusual at all -- how many fine artists do you know,
especially who make a living without other sources of income? (None to not
many, for sure!) But a lot of people study to go in that direction, or to hope
to do so.
In my studio classes we had regular critiques. Work was pinned up, you
discussed what you did and why you did it, challeneged by the professor and
other students, and sometimes by guest professors who knew nothing about you
or your work. If it was good, it was never as good as it COULD be so they would
discuss what you could do better, how it could be improved. You didn't want to
deal with the stuff said if you hadn't even tried to do well... harsh doesn't
BEGIN to describe it. (Actually "vicious" comes closer.) But that is how you
learned what to imrpove and how to improve it, too -- leave your ego at the
door. And it also accurately refelcted the kinds of things people will THINK
if not SAY out there in the "real world". If you intended to try to sell
things, it was best to get honest reactions before making the attempt -- maybe
you could head off failure.
I remember one class in painting where I (the only time) did exceptionally
well on the painting assignment. Being a woman taught to solicit compliments
by being self-denigrating, when we voted on my painting to decide which
favored few would be hung in the public exhibition, I voted no. The professor
very seriously wanted me to explain why and was ready to pull the painting,
when all I really was doing was being "cute". THEN I had to defend why it
SHOULD be in the exhibit, which amused my classmates and put me into
heavy-blush mode!! (Red face!) Critiques were a serious and useful (although
sometimes agonizing) part of art education. (And I have a young friend in
college today who still has this experience, so it's not just my advanced old
age speaking.)
I can't even imagine NOT getting graded, and seriously, in a college degree
major -- it makes me nervous to remember that SURGEONS can get "C's" in
required undergraduate classes and still aim that scalpel at me later on!! How
much worse it would be if they didn't have to have ANY indications that they
knew their stuff! Same, if less threatening, for everything else.
Sherry
Sherry Bailey
Claylady65 (clayl...@aol.com) wrote:
I remember my high school art classes...we had an excellent teacher, who guided
: rather than dictated our creativity. When I graduated, I was all set to go
: into "fine arts", then I encountered for the first time the art snobs. A
: building full of stuffy people who truly believed you could categorize what
: was art and what was not - and graded accordingly.
1. They may have been snobs (can't argue that) but that does NOT mean they
were WRONG in their assessments. Aesthetics is a learned thing, and there has
always been an element of "snobery" involved -- that included art COLLECTORS
to whom most fine artists desperately want to SELL things...
2. All art majors encounter this -- the ones who graduate learn to cope. Some
join in, some don't, but they all learn to deal with the fact of life in teh
fine art community.
: Can you imagine what would
: have become of Picasso in that environment? Or Van Gogh?
You are kidding, right? Van Gogh?? He DIED in absolute POVERTY because of the
negative reaction his wild uncontrolled abstractions caused in the extremely
rigid world of fine art in his time! It's one of the most flagrant
documentations of the negative impact of that "snobbery" in art history! (So,
yes, I don't HAVE to imagine it, I read the book!) (But then again, struggling
with that and his mental disorders may have been what sparked his genius, we
can never know for sure.)
I once read a book
: that Charles Schultz flunked his art classes in school because he wasn't
: doing
: what the rest of the class was doing. My god! Punishing people for having
: original thoughts!
Well, I didn't read that particular article, but I think Schultz might have
flunked his art classes (not that I know he did) because he may have been
disruptive and unwilling to learn the lessons being taught. If you are in US
History and want to study Rome when everybody else studies the Civil War, is
THAT OK? If not, why should something similar be OK in art classes? High
school teachers are required to live with curriculums and lesson plans, even
in art -- and it is not a bureaucratic joy to deal with the results of
rebellion, I assure you. Not to mention that Schultz's PARENTS might have been
expecting him to be able to paint (or whatever) from that class... It
obviously didn't destroy HIS creativity or ability, now DID it? And it's
pretty presumptuous to interpret it as "punishment for having original ideas".
True story: I "flunked" coloring in the first grade. (We got "satisfactory" or
"Unsatisfactory" in those days at that level, but I got the "U" and the note
home to mother.) Why? Because I was coloring in the circles with a back and
forth mothion instead of a round-and-round motion. Getting upset for me? Well,
don't. The purpose of this "art" exercise was eye-hand coordination and motor
skills development, NOT making art in whatever spontaneously creative way we
wanted to. It was important for me to follow directions and do it the "right"
way. Similar things can be true for less than obvious reasons in art at higher
levels, too.
I think it would be much more constructive for us to put
: aside the labels and again concentrate on becoming the best
: artist/crafter/designer/whatever we can be.
OK, how do you know you are there? What are your criteria for "best", both
"best you can be" and "best of the group"? That is the crux of what the
discussion is about -- you are still calling for some kind of discernment and
judgement, you are just looking at it from a different direction. If I judge
myself, I jude myself in comparison to my past work (getting better, mostly)
and to where I want to be (still a long way to go) and to other practitioners
(I'd put me at mid range, not up to Dustin and Hughes and Voulkos et al, but
at a higher level of talent and skill and product quality that some others,
who may someday supercede me... But there has to be some comparison made and
some judgements called or the concept is meaningless, there is no context.
: Theresa
: You say to-mAY-to, I say to-mAH-to!! LOL
Yep!! (Well, actually, I say to-MAY-toe also, but point taken!)
Sherry
Angela
Sherry Bailey wrote:
>
> Jim & Kristy/Critter Craft (jim...@wcnet.org) wrote:
>
> : GEE, Angela! I'm getting email every day that agees with us on this! You
> : really struck home on this one! Kristy
>
> : > an art class. In my college art class we never received grades.
>
>
> GEE, Kristy -- I'm getting e-mail every day DISagreeing with this! Do you
> suppose it invalidates YOUR e-mail? Or maybe only that (as we already know)
> opinions vary?
>
> Sherry
My goodness, why so hostile? She didn't direct any comments toward you.
:)
Angela
NarigonC
>(But then again, struggling
>with that and his mental disorders may have been what sparked his genius, we
>can never know for sure.)
I read an interesting theory that many creative geniuses, Van Gogh among them,
may have or have had a type of epilepsy that causes them to create obsessively.
It can affect writers, painters, any kind of creative person who works
obsessively at their art and has no control over whether they do it. I'd
imagine there are other symptoms, and I remember thinking that the list of
possiblities contained a remarkable number of "mad geniuses."
Carol
Sherry Bailey
I used to give the "What is Art" essay assignment, too. It's a way to force
students (many of who are channeled into art classes by guidance counselors
who have NO clue, and who are only looking for an easy credit) to THINK about
this whole concept. The only way that essay should ever merit an "F" in my
opinion is if (like some of my students) you go to the "A" volume fo the
encyclopedia and copy word for word the first couple of paragraphs of the
entry for "art", or if you don't address the question (maybe talk about your
goldfish or something!) Actually, a lot of posters to this discussion are
partly answering that question, right here!
Again, there are good and lousy art teachers, also at the college level. (I
had a professor who regularly gave women students grades about 1-2 levels
below men with the same level of work because he made up HIS mind that women
didn't "belong" in professional art. I'm not making it up! He positively HATED
the renowned female sculptor, and flunked me on a project when I missed part
of one of his classes to hear her speak in a special lecture...)
Nonetheless, there is a difference between art and not-art, and that doesn't
mean "craft". ("Craft" is more about the medium you use and what the object is
FOR than it is about artistry.) I think one thing that is being overlooked in
this conversation is that as a STUDENT you are not expected to already be
making high level fine art, you are expected to be LEARNING HOW to do that,
and I don't know a single fine artist who doesn't trash their OWN old beginner
work. As you skills rise and you supercede yourself, even YOU will see the
things in your early work that experienced "snobs" if you insist see right at
the start. But you still have to pass through that phase, and your best work
at phase 1 will make you proud of yourself at phase 1. At phase 10, however,
you may be terribly embarrassed by that phase 1 item! If your professors are
at phase 20, and they see your phase 1 stuff, what do you think they would
think??? It's all relative, and hopefully we all keep growing. But criticism
and critical review are parts of art history as far back as any kind of studio
system has existed, before the Renaissance, and it will always be there.
Most of us are not cut out for the fulltime professional fine artist life --
first you have to BE really great, exceptional, at what you do. Then you have
to be damned lucky on top of it to be able to find people who appreciate what
you do and will support it. Everybody else has to make compromises of one sort
or another. Teach, do production work when we'd rather do fun one-fo-s-kinds
that take way too much time to be practical, have a day job or working
spouse... And that's only those of us who want to even BE "professionals".
I'll say it one more time, one more way. Two different things: There IS a
difference in quality and aesthetics and some other factors between fine art
and hobby craft. (The product.) This is NOT a judgement in any way about the
people who MAKE this stuff. (The artists/craftsmen/crafters.) Do NOT assume
that arguing about the reality of the art world means anyone is in any way
dissing those who don't even aspire to be there, who are happy doing something
in a different category.
(I met a man recently who ultimately informed me that I'm too dumb for him to
converse with because I don't have a Ph.D. in physics. THAT is what would
happen if anybody here believed in the art is good, everything else is
disgusting kind of snobbery people seem to be blasting.)
There are women who will go to West Point (or whatever) even knowing the
kind of psychological abuse they will get for having the effrontery to invade
male territory, because they really want to do it. *I* couldn't do that, but
maybe YOU could. Some people don't want to deal with the stress of being
judged in a formal art arena, like college degree programs. Same kind of
thing. You do what is right for you, but do it with awareness of the fact that
there IS something else out there, that's all.
Sherry
Vince Rhea
Porro,
I would not attempt to add another comment to your post---except, where are you
when rec.art.fine ng discusses this? It is an on-going and heated topic
there. IMHO, if there were an easy answer to this question, with all the
discussion there, the definition would be carved in stone.
OTOH, Porro, don't waste your time over there, we need you too much here.
Jeanne
Pörrö Törrönen wrote:
> slba...@bu.edu,Usenet6 writes:
>
> Sherry,
>
> At first let me thank you for your long post. It was really interesting
> although I don´t share all your opinions. I am still so thankful to you to
> talk so openly about views that to some might feel offensive. It probably
> is not an easy spot to stand.
>
> You wrote:
> >But there is a difference between appreciating quality and artistry and
> >ENcouraging it, and simply thinking that what anybody else does is
> >automatically wonderful! It may be fun, it may be satisfying, it may be
> >stimulating, it may even be "creative" (depending on how you define the
> term)
> >but it may not be intrinsically and independently "artistic". (Definitions
> of
> >terms are really critical to arguments about this area, and you need to be
> >really specific and not so interpretive. If "to you" anything is art, then
> >your definition of art is meaningless and not usable for communication.
>
> IMHO this is true, and false too. It depends a lot.
> On one hand there are some guidelines to determining art, and there are
> plenty of people earning their living in that theory field. In Europe there
> are thousands of humanists who really can earn decent living being
> "scientist of Art" making theories and investigating old ones. There is a
> huge amount of theoretical knowledge about aesthetics, coloring, forms,
> symbols etc. and they are really good guidelines when definitioning "High
> art".
>
> On the other hand the idea of ART is always somewhat social agreement on
> values. Different times have different standards as well as different
> cultures. And one thing about polyclay culture (hey, I just realized we
> have one) is that there are different rules here than in anywhere other art
> community I have seen. In here art has a lot more meaning than it has in
> "outside" world. IMHO In here the FINE ARTS narrow standards are sometimes
> not as highly valued than in art communities generally, not because people
> are insecure of themself or valuating things "wrongly" or "differently",
> but because we have this different unique culture that has somewhat ideal
> surroundings: supporting, encouraging, teaching, sharing. This is the first
> time ever I have found artist community starting from joy, not from quality
> standards. And that joy, IMHO, is what is going to spread polyclay more
> rapidly than any artistic statements could.
>
> And, after all, this is not rec.crafts.polymer-clay.fine-arts. Maybe there
> should be that one too.
> Also, IMHO, this group is more about polyclay than it is about the products
> made from it.
>
> >There are people out there (some in this group) who seem mortally
> >offended by TRUTH. We are NOT all equal. Some things are better
> INTRINSICALLY
> >than other things. Some of us have degrees (meaning years of training and
> >experience) in fine art, and ARE in a position to declare in many cases
> "this
> >is art but this is not". Some people see this as elitism, and in one way
> it is
> >-- but really it is knowing that for specific discussable reasons,
> aesthetic
> >and technical, some things fit the criteria, some things don't, and some
> >things really fall into a subjective area where *I* happen to think "the
> >Emperor has no clothes" often applies! ;^)
>
> Again, true and false. I totally agree that fine art can be defined * but
> all art not.
>
> *because it is is a matter of agreement
>
> Also there is one thing that history* has proven to be true about artists
> judgmental attitudes; when artists start to judge most of the things "below
> their level" they usually stop developing as artists themself. There is a
> need to criticism, but when it comes to be THE THING I think people are
> really getting backwards in their progress. Some amount of defiance and
> blast of a trumpets is needed in all arts, but when the noise made is
> getting more important than the ART made... Not really good for creative
> juices. (IMHO)
>
> *History of art, various artists memoirs, looking the life works of known
> artists
>
> >Somewhere near the least admirable end of the spectrum are people who putz
> >around for fun but aren't going anywhere. Now I do NOT mean that they
> should
> >be discouraged or "scorned", just not held up as examples, and admired.
> 'Least
> >admired' does NOT mean the same thing as 'NOT admired'. (Please think
> about
> >that before getting mad!)
>
> This is where our thinking aparts rapidly. I don´t think all crafting
> should be criticized based on fine-arts values. But I am talking about me
> now. I don´t compare all the pianists to Olli Mustonen either. I admire
> everyone who is willing to start a new hobby, to try to find a way to spend
> time or express something. If people try hard I always give them extra
> points.
>
> My experience of people who just spend time with things they love, like
> polyclaying, is that if pushed and encouraged a little they might surprise
> a lot. All of us have hidden talents. I am the best example of that (and
> the one I can use without braking any copyright laws ;-), my art teachers
> always told me that I am impossible case, not even worth teaching. And
> guess what ? After getting some encouragement I am almost living by my
> polyclay now. Not because I am so "damn talented" or artsy but because I
> love what I do. "Build a temple and they will come".
>
> >3. There is nothing wrong with NOT making art -- it's perfectly fine to
> simply
> >have fun and playful.
>
> And there also is no reason to think ART is something only galleries would
> have. In the good old days the masters, the grate ones we now worship, were
> making paintings on consignment. Most of the best known paintings were
> originally custom orders... So actually this separating art as it´s own
> "class" is IMHO negative development on human race. In Europe we still have
> a lot of high quality culture around us. For instance in Finland we have
> lived with high end design furniture all our lifes, in our kindergarten
> they had tables and chairs designed by Alvar Aalto. Now they exhibit those
> around Europe because 1998 is 100 years after his birth. Ok, that is not
> ART if you determine ART as something not useful. But, then again, in the
> old days the portrait paintings were useful although they now seem to have
> more meaning as an art...
>
> I am sounding serious today. No usual humor involved... Why ? I don´t know.
> This is serious thing, and there are real people involved, and even mixing
> my spoon into soup is definitely hurting someones feelings. So let me say
> this one before ending my post: I don´t mind if someone things differently
> than I do. I hope people let me keep my opinions, or at least convince me
> that theirs is better ;-)
>
> "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking the stars"
> Oscar Wilde
>
> PöRRö
>
> --
> Po...@online.tietokone.fi
> Sarjassamme moderneja satuaarteita:
> Jotkut pillipiiparit vievät sekä palkan että lapsuuden,
> mutta jättävät rotat kaupungin kaduille.
Claylady65
> Theresa---understanding this well but what I really want to know....
>Do you say Po-TAY-to or Po-TAH-to?
>Jeanne
I say French Fries!!!!!!!
Pörrö Törrönen
slba...@bu.edu,Usenet6 writes:
Sherry,
At first let me thank you for your long post. It was really interesting
although I don´t share all your opinions. I am still so thankful to you to
talk so openly about views that to some might feel offensive. It probably
is not an easy spot to stand.
You wrote:
>But there is a difference between appreciating quality and artistry and
>ENcouraging it, and simply thinking that what anybody else does is
>automatically wonderful! It may be fun, it may be satisfying, it may be
>stimulating, it may even be "creative" (depending on how you define the
term)
>but it may not be intrinsically and independently "artistic". (Definitions
of
>terms are really critical to arguments about this area, and you need to be
>really specific and not so interpretive. If "to you" anything is art, then
>your definition of art is meaningless and not usable for communication.
IMHO this is true, and false too. It depends a lot.
>There are people out there (some in this group) who seem mortally
>offended by TRUTH. We are NOT all equal. Some things are better
INTRINSICALLY
>than other things. Some of us have degrees (meaning years of training and
>experience) in fine art, and ARE in a position to declare in many cases
"this
>is art but this is not". Some people see this as elitism, and in one way
it is
>-- but really it is knowing that for specific discussable reasons,
aesthetic
>and technical, some things fit the criteria, some things don't, and some
>things really fall into a subjective area where *I* happen to think "the
>Emperor has no clothes" often applies! ;^)
Again, true and false. I totally agree that fine art can be defined * but
all art not.
*because it is is a matter of agreement
Also there is one thing that history* has proven to be true about artists
judgmental attitudes; when artists start to judge most of the things "below
their level" they usually stop developing as artists themself. There is a
need to criticism, but when it comes to be THE THING I think people are
really getting backwards in their progress. Some amount of defiance and
blast of a trumpets is needed in all arts, but when the noise made is
getting more important than the ART made... Not really good for creative
juices. (IMHO)
*History of art, various artists memoirs, looking the life works of known
artists
>Somewhere near the least admirable end of the spectrum are people who putz
>around for fun but aren't going anywhere. Now I do NOT mean that they
should
>be discouraged or "scorned", just not held up as examples, and admired.
'Least
>admired' does NOT mean the same thing as 'NOT admired'. (Please think
about
>that before getting mad!)
This is where our thinking aparts rapidly. I don´t think all crafting
should be criticized based on fine-arts values. But I am talking about me
now. I don´t compare all the pianists to Olli Mustonen either. I admire
everyone who is willing to start a new hobby, to try to find a way to spend
time or express something. If people try hard I always give them extra
points.
My experience of people who just spend time with things they love, like
polyclaying, is that if pushed and encouraged a little they might surprise
a lot. All of us have hidden talents. I am the best example of that (and
the one I can use without braking any copyright laws ;-), my art teachers
always told me that I am impossible case, not even worth teaching. And
guess what ? After getting some encouragement I am almost living by my
polyclay now. Not because I am so "damn talented" or artsy but because I
love what I do. "Build a temple and they will come".
>3. There is nothing wrong with NOT making art -- it's perfectly fine to
simply
>have fun and playful.
And there also is no reason to think ART is something only galleries would
P D RUSS
>I think anyone teaching ought to take
>home AT LEAST what they would get for a day job for that time frame. So, say
>you would earn $20 an hour working at something (not necessarily clay
>related,
>but something you can really do), and a class will run three hours.
I guess if I earned $20 an hour for some everyday job I could afford a $100
clay class. But sinceI have never ever earned that much in an hour, I guess I
can never *go* to classes.
Most of our money goes to bills & food. A $100 to play with must go a long way
around here, and not be spent on a 3 hour activity for one person, no matter
how much I would want to do it.
This computer is still our main source of entertainment and will be for many
years, until we pay it off. So any "classes" I take are from the internet and
all the wonderful clay sites.
Thank you all the people who put up all the wonderful info on clay and post on
this newsgroup.
Dianne >^..^<
CJ
Vince Rhea wrote:
>
> Porro,
> I would not attempt to add another comment to your post---except, where are you
> when rec.art.fine ng discusses this? It is an on-going and heated topic
> there. IMHO, if there were an easy answer to this question, with all the
> discussion there, the definition would be carved in stone.
> OTOH, Porro, don't waste your time over there, we need you too much here.
> Jeanne
amen to that.
--
CJ
---------
"Dont be rude. Rude is weak."
Morgan La Fey, 'Merlin'
remove * to reply
Otterfire
OH MY WORD!!!!
we do have a heafty debate going on here dont we....
I can see your point sherry and porro i can see yours as well...i think i am
gonna take a few and compose myself and get back with my .02 because heck its
my stupid art teacher that started this whole line :)
Otterfire
I guess it basically comes down to this:
there is a difference in JUDGING work CRITQUEING (sp)....There is nothing wrong
with giving constructive critism or even praise in a form where that is
expected and part of the course. (if that is the said path you choose)...and to
me a critque is by a set of KNOWN standards..like color composition blending so
forth, is it true to the style or is it a bastardized version? Critques are a
fantastic way to see how your work is perseved. AND if the perseption is what
you were shooting for or if *they* just dont get it. Critqueing is what should
be done in this arena, not judging.
Judging, to me, is what is pleasing to you BY your standard. I could judge
everyones work everyday, but my standard is not the norm or is it even the
artistically acceptable in every instance. I feel once you put yourself in a
postition to be judged, then you must be prepared to accept the consequenses of
that ACTION. But i am sure if you enter a competition then you are prepared
for the eventual outcome.
i am not really sure how this whole thing started, but it seems it was in
relation to a swap (maybe)...and in that instance i was under the impression
that it was used as a learning tool for those of us who are less acomplished
and even in that process the older more experienced may learn something.
And true if you go to design or art school, you do put yourself in somewhat a
vunerable situation, as a learning tool, but as THIS learning tool, none of us
need to be subjected to judgements. This is not a requirement for our future
success and i am sure that some of us are quite accomplished in the field with
out anyone expecting us to conform to their idea and standard of good art.
I agree with porro on the idea of art and social values. and on the polyclay
community. I have met other craft artists that are SHOCKED at the idea of
sharing with others, that their stuff is such a big secret (never mind that the
techinque can be found in a book for 15 bucks)...we are a group of people happy
with others success and amazed at the kindness each of us share. (not to
mention our wacked out sense of humor!!!)
i think for the time being i have said enough...
i also lost my train (of thought once or twice)...
Molly
DABlack
Another variable for the pot . . .
What I seem to find most limiting is a linear idea of what or who is "good."
There seems to me to be infinite complexity to that category --not even
counting philosophical discussions about the meaning of "truth," the
psychology involved in creating, and purpose-of-life questions. The whole
subject seems less black and white than it does a marbling and streaking of
various grays --and it seems most truthful and productive to maintain the whole
set of complexities, hard as that is!
More than a straght line, to me it's more like a multi-branching tree --one
that has leaves, fruit, changing colors, widely-ranging species, flexibility,
shape, roots, shade-production, etc., etc., to consider.
Not to say I don't value analysis and discussing the specifics (just ask my
friends!), and a lot is gained by doing that. I'm just concerned about
bringing to it the absolute broadest pallete I can possibly understand, for my
own sake as well as for the completest sorting and fairness to everyone else.
(At the rate I stumble on ways to look at things that I didn't see
before--quite humbling!--I have to feel that my opinions are only in progress
anyway, just the most current state of understanding and misunderstanding that
I can figure out to use for scaffolding . . .)
another 2 cents,
Diane B.
P & I
Wow! After surviving a Wisconsin summer storm which left us without power
for over 24
hours, I called up my favorite newsgroup to discover another summer storm
going on!
Fortunately, having missed a couple of days here, I was able to read
everyone HO's
before responding.
I am impressed by the hours of thought and soul-searching which have gone
on. Each
person must have struggled mightily to put such subjective thoughts out for
everyone to
see. It's obvious that there will be areas of this question which may never
be easily
accepted or agreed upon, but it's been an education in art as well as human
nature for
all of to read.
For the past hour or so, I have been incensed, humbled, amused, and
(thankfully) edu-
cated. Sherrie,I wish I'd had the opportunity to have been one of your
students, the
best teachers are those, like you, who make people THINK.
Creation of art/vs crafting...don't we craft those things we use and create
the things we
admire?
Irene in Wisconsin (once again empowered)
RSPIEGE
Dianne said
to classes.
venues. The adult ed in my community offered a polyclay for a few years. Art
centers, etc often tend to be affordable. Some of these are really wonderful
classes.
Randi
P D RUSS
>
>>Somewhere near the least admirable end of the spectrum are people who putz
>>around for fun but aren't going anywhere.
Well, I'm not afraid to stand up and be counted as one of this group. I do what
I do for the love of it, not for profit or praise.
Once in a while I turn out something original and wonderful. (Pictures coming
soon to a computer near you. )
I think all forms of creativity should be encouraged. A child or adult will not
gain confidence to continue finding "themselves" if the people closest to them
discourage it---been there- done that.
My nephews use to send me Christmas presents wrapped in hand drawn paper. Many
years later I have no idea where the gifts are but I still have the wrapping
paper. I bring it out every Christmas as part of my family decorations.
Dianne >^..^<
Suzi!
This will probably get me flamed but...
The question of "What is Art" is something i've been asking myself for
many years. When I'm not doing clay, i'm working on my web page, or
doing an ad for school (I'm a ad design student), or doodling or doing
something else that requires creativity. To some these things may make
me an artist. But I don't see it that way. What gets called art? The
stuff that hangs in Art galleries. Much of it was made by an outsider,
or a member of some art group or school of though. And most of these
artists were men. The pieces of "art" are bought by the rich and
cultural elite, and put into galleies to be viewed by the same people.
For much of history art has been something for artists, and the rich.
The common people ocasionally got to see "art" in Churches etc, but that
was about it.
What did the common people have? They had crafts. These crafts were
sometimes very plain and crude, like a spoon craved from wood to mix
gruel, or sometimes very elaborite, like the bead work on a young
woman's wedding dress. Crafts were made out of nessecity, out of love,
to learn, or just to add a little decoration into a common persons life.
Both women and men made crafts, eventhough they were usually divided -
men doing wood work, women doing quilting etc. Crafts could be
understood by all people - A clay wine pot from the roman era is still
understood by us to be a wine pot - even though we have our wine in
bottles.
What went in the past is still mostly true today. Art is housed in cold
dull galleries, with boring rich people and smarty pants ooohing and
ahhing over it, and crafts are shown at warm fun fairs, connventions and
shows. Most people don't have a "real" work of art in they're homes, but
everybody has some kind of craft item.
Art = elitism, sexism, death
Crafts (& Design) = unity, equality, life
--
Suzi!
vac...@interlog.com
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/7303/
Patti Kimle
Suzi! wrote:
> What went in the past is still mostly true today. Art is housed in
> cold
> dull galleries, with boring rich people and smarty pants ooohing and
> ahhing over it, and crafts are shown at warm fun fairs, connventions
> and
> shows. Most people don't have a "real" work of art in they're homes,
> but
> everybody has some kind of craft item.
>
> Art = elitism, sexism, death
> Crafts (& Design) = unity, equality, life
>
> --
> Suzi!
> vac...@interlog.com
> http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/7303/
Suzi,
Just want to clarify a perspective or definition here with some
specific examples. If you have seen any of the work featured in
Ornament magazine, Lapidary Journal, Jewelry Crafts, American Craft, or
Bead and Button, how would you categorize those items? Art or craft?
These magazines are all dedicated to functional items, mostly
wearables, jewelry and ceramics and glass. The works are often the
finest examples of their medium and the makers are refered to usually as
artists. The objects are referred to often as "fine crafts". People buy
this sort of work in fine craft/art galleries. And it's more
affordable to have these types of items than large paintings, etc.
Is this perspective consistent with yours? Just wondering. Because
when I refer to polymer clay as art, these are the places I see it. And
where I would like to be someday.
I think we often are differentiating in words what we actually are
holding in similar esteem but we each have different connotations for
the words, some bad, some good. (art, craft, creativity, etc.) Often,
when someone states an opinion which seems different from mine, then I
see their work on a website or somewhere else, it seems to me that we
are really closer in thought and attitude than our words can express.
Communicating in a different level sometimes, like visually, often fills
the spaces between the meanings.
Patti
Angela
Suzi! wrote:
>
> What went in the past is still mostly true today. Art is housed in cold
> dull galleries, with boring rich people and smarty pants ooohing and
> ahhing over it, and crafts are shown at warm fun fairs, connventions and
> shows. Most people don't have a "real" work of art in they're homes, but
> everybody has some kind of craft item.
>
> Art = elitism, sexism, death
> Crafts (& Design) = unity, equality, life
>
> --
> Suzi!
I *loved* this post. I thought it cut through the crap quite nicely.
Angela
scott & irene
This is pretty heavy stuff, here, but this is how it works for me.
*Craft* is technique. *Art* is expression. Most all polyclay I do
involves some of each. My production items (things I can make in quantity,
and are regular good sellers) are almost pure craft at this point, though
their prototypes were closer to art. Special, one-of-a-kind pieces are a
lot closer to art, but they involve craft to become a finished piece.
It's possible that something that is well crafted could have no feeling
behind its creation, and, on the other hand, something that speaks volumes
could be shoddily crafted.
A friend of mine does batik for a living. The application of wax onto the
fabric, and the subsequent dyeing, is the CRAFT. The beautiful imagery she
creates with wax is ART.
So. CRAFT is with your hands, ART is with your soul, perhaps? No reason
anything has to be classified into one category or the other.
Of course, your mileage may vary. :)
Irene
--
to email, remove first x from address
P D RUSS
>
>Maybe classes by big-names are out, but I've seen pc classes offered in many
>venues. The adult ed in my community offered a polyclay for a few years.
>Art
>centers, etc often tend to be affordable. Some of these are really wonderful
>classes.
>
>Randi
I'll start looking around for some in this area.
:)
Dianne >^..^<
Jim & Kristy/Critter Craft
In article <3594490C...@kimledesigns.com>,
Patti Kimle <pa...@kimledesigns.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > > > , then I
> see their work on a website or somewhere else, it seems to me that we
> are really closer in thought and attitude than our words can express.
> Communicating in a different level sometimes, like visually, often fills
> the spaces between the meanings.
> Patti
>
I have always felt that this is because an artist usually communicates
better through their work than with words.What are your thoughts on this?
Kristy
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Patti Kimle
Jim & Kristy/Critter Craft wrote:
> In article <3594490C...@kimledesigns.com>,
> Patti Kimle <pa...@kimledesigns.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > > , then I
> > see their work on a website or somewhere else, it seems to me that
> we
> > are really closer in thought and attitude than our words can
> express.
> > Communicating in a different level sometimes, like visually, often
> fills
> > the spaces between the meanings.
> > Patti
> >
> > Patti,
> I have always felt that this is because an artist usually
> communicates
> better through their work than with words.What are your thoughts on
> this?
> Kristy
I know that there are many things we "say" through our work that are
available to us when we review it. Many times I understand an image
after it is done, but not while I do it. But I often struggle with
wondering if what I put into it someone else will get out of it. For
some reason, it seems important to me right now that they do. And it
makes doing the work kind of hard for me. I'm sure this is just another
phase in my own progression.
I've seen and been through many instances where what is expressed in a
work was so explained, analyzed and discussed, (in class, critique, or
whatever) in words that it lost it's original magic. (Although I don't
have much literary background to catch the references in many great
poems to other works, I'd rather just read a poem and enjoy the rhythm
of the words than have to read pages and pages of annotations to
"understand" it.) I think that also turns lots of people off about
visual art too. They don't want to have to be "tutored" in what the
artist means. Knowing an artist's intention or the context which led to
a work should only enhance our appreciation of it. But is it
necessary? I don't think so.
Of some comfort in this dialog is a book I used in my graduate work
called the Aesthetic Experience by Jacques Macquet. He's an
anthropologist and takes the view that even in non-objective art (that
which has no specific subject or recognizable image), the work is made
up of symbols which are universal across cultures and can be understood
without formal analysis. The use of the symbols just takes place so
deep in the human consciousness that we aren't aware of the
intentions... take that theory with a grain of salt. It's not mine,
but I kind of liked it.
Patti
Azmurf
Oh, all right. I've been wanting to say this for some time, and I may not have
the words right, but here goes.
"Art" and "Craft" are defined by the dominant culture, and given their
value/paid $ by it. Dominant culture/critics over the last 4,000 years has
been male; so have the patrons of art. Art and beauty are infrequently part of
a male life. Sorry, but have you ever walked into a bachelor male apt? Now
think about a woman's first apartment. Women create beauty because it's like
air to us. And no, it's not an absolute, there are lots of men who create
beautiful spaces, and lots of women who dont.
Women's notion of beauty and art have been trivialized because it's women, and
until the last part of this century, women were trivial, at least in society's
eyes. Now, since things are more fluid, those things which women produce are
finding their way into consideration, but still carry a stigma. Frankly,
folks, I look at Jody's/Richard's stuff, or any number of other's, and it beat
the H... out of 9/10ths of what I see in galleries/museums. It's up there with
really high art, spiritually, technically, etc. But the medium is attached to
women (can't take dolls seriously) soooo...it's not art. And cloth/fiber
stuff...that's women, too. Not "serious" stuff, like bronze.
The good part is this is in flux now, and we have survived to see it. I think
as the current crop of critics, etc. die out, the newer breed will be able to
see more clearly. It will take a long time for the dust to settle, but a new
definition of art will emerge that will include humankind's productions, media,
etc. And that's the exciting part of all of this.
So now, more than ever, I think definitions of "art" are in the eye of the
individual beholder. We aren't sheep anymore; we don't swallow critic's
opinions. So do whatever you like, push your limits, and enjoy.
BTW, polymer is probably also considered "craft/women's stuff" and currently
lacks standing on that account. That will change.
My 25 cents worth.
Cate in AZ.
lwillingh...@cooke.net
>In article <3594490C...@kimledesigns.com>,
> Patti Kimle <pa...@kimledesigns.com> wrote:
>> Communicating in a different level sometimes,
>> Patti
> I have always felt that this is because an artist usually communicates
>better through their work than with words.>
Hi,
Can I add a thought to this thread?
I was an art judge for a regional and national art competition for
ages 7th grade thru 12th grade. I volunteered for a total of 7 years.
I do not have an art degree-just 25 years of experience as a sculptor.
(I only had time and funding for college classes that taught me more
about sculture techniques and methods).
The art competition required the entrant to write something about
their entry. Some of the art and craft entries were incredible. I
was in awe of the talent they displayed. I followed many of the young
artists from their first entry until they were out of High School. A
few had that special gift of presenting their ideas in their art work,
and a very few could match words to what they had created. When I saw
this combination of talent repeated by the same entrants from 7th
grade all the way thru 12th grade-Those were the ones I recommended
for College Scholarships.
My job as the art judge was very important to these young people.
They needed MY written words to First encourage them to keep trying,
and Second to advise them on how to improve their work. Some of them
did not need advice. I sent personal letters to some to encourage them
to keep trying-and I saw them come back the next year with an entry
that accomplished Exactly what they wanted to show And say.
Happily for me, I was able to meet the young artists in person. The
national competition was held in a major city, and the artist stood
beside their work as it was being judged. I finally saw the faces
behind the art and words...and some of them knew me.
Sometimes the most influential thing we can do is to encourage other
artists to keep trying....sometimes that returns to us as a blessing
multiplied ten times.
Leslie
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Leslie Willingham
Remove _nospam_ from address for reply...
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Sherry Bailey
DABlack (dab...@aol.com) wrote:
: Another variable for the pot . . .
: What I seem to find most limiting is a linear idea of what or who is "good."
: There seems to me to be infinite complexity to that category --not even
: counting philosophical discussions about the meaning of "truth," the
: psychology involved in creating, and purpose-of-life questions. The whole
: subject seems less black and white than it does a marbling and streaking of
: various grays --and it seems most truthful and productive to maintain the whole
: set of complexities, hard as that is!
Not to mention the additional complication that in English the word "good" as
in moral and "good" as in high quality are indiscernable, and so I suspect a
lot of the time arguments happen because of imprecise understanding of what
use of the word is in play at the time. (I certainly don't know of any
reasonable correlation between morality and talent/skill!) When discussing
philosophical issues, precise semantics help a lot!
Sherry
Sherry Bailey
: >>Somewhere near the least admirable end of the spectrum are people who putz
: >>around for fun but aren't going anywhere.
Well, I'm not afraid to stand up and be counted as one of this group. I do what
I do for the love of it, not for profit or praise.
Once in a while I turn out something original and wonderful. (Pictures coming
soon to a computer near you. )
Actually, when I posted the comment at the top of this message, I was thinking
of people not even interested in clay enough to poke around in this newsgroup
-- the ones who go to Michaels and buy a couple of bars of Sculpey and make a
pen or something and never touch the stuff again... People in this newsgroup
generally are "upstream" from this very basic level. (NOTE: This comment
sounds even worse out of context than it did in, and my phrasing was far from
ideal -- this concept is so hard to articulate! Remember in the original,
though, I did say that this level is perfectly respectable too, it's just not
"fine art".)
Personally, I believe that everybody in the newsgroup is likely to be moving
up the scale all the time, simply because everyone is interested enough to
participate in a learning situation which is what this forum is all about. New
tips and inspirations are hitting us all the time! I love it!
Sherry
Sherry Bailey
Actually, historically most (Western) fine art (say Renaissance and before)
was done on commission for The Church. It was never meant to hang in galleries
or museums, it was packed with symbolism, and it was used to teach The Masses
(as well as uplift them). So although owned by the religious elite and made to
suit them, it was made FOR the "common man". People have always observed that
the money spent on cathedrals (architecture is fine art) could have been spent
to feed the poor instead, but on the flip side of that is the argument that
"the poor will always be with us" and that cathedrals were intended to be both
an observation of faith (gift to God sort of thing) AND a way to create an
environment that transports a common (maybe hungry!) man outside himself
spiritually, an expression of "Godly" qualities which have a psychological
effect even today. Just because paintings today are in museums and galleries
to preserve and protect them for everybody's enjoyment (and frankly I happen
to think it's a matter of education whether or not you like them, not money or
other elitist characteristics) doesn't mean that has any bearing on the
CREATION of that art.
Also, one thing that often does separate hobby craft from fine art is the LACK
of expression in hobby craft. It may be fun and satisfying to (for example)
make a kit. But it doesn't EXPRESS anything except maybe your taste in
choosing that particular kit. (WHICH IS OK, just not art!) Fine art is what
you get when you have a convergence of the technical skills AND the expressive
ones. (And by expression, *I* am talking about something communicated to the
dispassionate viewer, not what YOU feel when you do it.)
Sherry
Mindy
slba...@bu.edu (Sherry Bailey) wrote:
<snip>
> Fine art is what
>you get when you have a convergence of the technical skills AND the expressive
>ones.
This is exactly where I have problems with defining art. I saw some
work by one of the famous pc artists (naming no names here!!), and
although it was beautiful, it had no soul. It didn't express any
feeling to me. I suspect that it does touch many others, but this
particular stuff didn't do anything for me. =) Maybe this means I
don't have the sense to be "touched" by fine art, but I'm pretty sure
that's not true. I remember walking through the National Museum of
Art a few years ago with a group. They had to just *PULL* me out of
there... Anyway, what I'm gettting around to is that if you are going
to define art by some technical qualities, then I can go with a set
definition, because those things can be measured. My main requirement
for art is "does it have a soul--does it talk to me?" . These things
are based as much on the viewer as the piece of work, itself. So, I
have a hard time agreeing that there is a "true" definition of art,
when one of it's large components is subjective.
Mindy
June Knobbe
On 20 Jun 1998 12:54:32 GMT, cmdo...@aol.com (CMDoyon99) wrote:
> I had an experience with a customer recently--she saw one of my mirrors at a
> craft show last year and wanted me to cover a mirror she purchased. She wanted
> me to quote a price on the spot, I explained to her I'd have to guage the size
> of the mirror, time involved, etc. A month would go by, she'd call me and say
Your experience sounds like just about every time I try and make
someone something custom made. I also found that it's hard to get rid
of people like this. They keep calling wanting me to do MORE! I
guess everyone else has turned them away.
Regards, June
Spammers need not reply.
If you want to email me,
replace "Spam" with the word "Bell"
in my address. Thanks
Angela
June Knobbe wrote:
>
> On 20 Jun 1998 12:54:32 GMT, cmdo...@aol.com (CMDoyon99) wrote:
>
> > I had an experience with a customer recently--she saw one of my mirrors at a
> > craft show last year and wanted me to cover a mirror she purchased. She wanted
> > me to quote a price on the spot, I explained to her I'd have to guage the size
> > of the mirror, time involved, etc. A month would go by, she'd call me and say
>
> Your experience sounds like just about every time I try and make
> someone something custom made. I also found that it's hard to get rid
> of people like this. They keep calling wanting me to do MORE! I
> guess everyone else has turned them away.
> Regards, June
>
I *like* people who ask me to make them custom things based on the work
they see, and I really like it when they keep coming back. Am I just
lucky that I've had customers who were happy with the things I've made
them? I've never even considered telling someone no, unless I was just
swamped and couldn't do it in a reasonable amount of time. I've found
that those are the customers that really bring in new business.
Angela
Pörrö Törrönen
otte...@aol.com,Usenet6 writes:
>i am not really sure how this whole thing started, but it seems it was in
>relation to a swap (maybe)...and in that instance i was under the
impression
>that it was used as a learning tool for those of us who are less
acomplished
>and even in that process the older more experienced may learn something.
>And true if you go to design or art school, you do put yourself in
somewhat a
>vunerable situation, as a learning tool, but as THIS learning tool, none
of us
>need to be subjected to judgements. This is not a requirement for our
future
>success and i am sure that some of us are quite accomplished in the field
with
>out anyone expecting us to conform to their idea and standard of good art.
Amen to that, Molly.
Really good points. Let´s hope swapping will never change as competive as
art schools are...
And yes, I agree, critic (I liked your definition) is what we all need. It
is just another synonym for word "feedback". If this group did not want
that there would not be swaps or guilds ;-)