OT- Pension funds
azotic
country's privately-managed pension funds in a drastic move to raise cash.
It is a foretaste of what may happen across the world as governments
discover that tax revenue, and discover that the bond markets are unwilling
to plug the gap. The G7 states are already acquiring an unhealthy taste for
the arbitrary seizure of private property.
So, over $29bn of Argentine civic savings are to be used as a funding kitty
for the populist antics of President Cristina Kirchner.
Best Regards
Tom.
Ignoramus11847
i
Stuart Wheaton
Hmmm. Here in America the usual approach is that multibillion dollar
corporations declare bankruptcy, dump their pension obligations onto the
government for pennies on the dollar, and then emerge fat and happy.
and the CEO gets a big bonus for 'saving' the company.
azotic
"Stuart Wheaton" <sdwh...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:31469$4bc52407$d0660039$29...@FUSE.NET...
Our progressive government will protect us by requiring all retirement
accounts
can only be invested in the safest securities known to man, US treasury
notes.
Best Regards
Tom.
F. George McDuffee
wrote:
=========
In the U.S. we have "priate enterprise" and the "free market"...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/business/16pension.html?src=busln
Quadrangle Group Settles Pension Fund Case
By LOUISE STORY
Published: April 15, 2010
The Quadrangle Group, the private equity firm that was once run
by the Obama administration’s car czar, has agreed to settle a
corruption investigation with Attorney General Andrew M. Cuomo’s
office and the Securities and Exchange Commission.
<snip>
“This case has started a national investigation of public pension
funds all across the nation,” said Mr. Cuomo, the attorney
general of New York State, in a media call. “A significant amount
of this country’s wealth are in these public pension funds and I
fear — seeing what we’ve seen in New York — that it’s going to be
a serious problem for the nation.”
The case is a chapter in a lengthy investigation of kickbacks
paid by investment firms to advisers for the New York state
pension fund. Several investment firms including the Carlyle
Group have already settled related cases. The firms were accused
of paying kickbacks to individuals close to the state’s former
comptroller in order to convince the state to invest pension
money in their funds.
<snip>
==========
FWIW -- California also has this problem with some of its large
public employee retirement funds.
Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).
Gunner Asch
No comment necessary
Gunner
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.
This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
F. George McDuffee
<gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/17260182/1610997888/name/ftc-vi26.wmv
>
>
>No comment necessary
>
>
>Gunner
===========
You may also like this zinger. Be sure and scan the reader
comments.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100415/us_time/08599198195800;_ylt=Aisq_UiFhHSVPgqWX6kQaqO26ysC;_ylu=X3oDMTM1dGhkMWdoBGFzc2V0A3RpbWUvMjAxMDA0MTUvMDg1OTkxOTgxOTU4MDAEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwM1BHBvcwM1BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDZ21zcGVuc2lvbmZ1
GM's Pension: A Ticking Time Bomb for Taxpayers?
By JOSEPH R. SZCZESNY Joseph R. Szczesny – 2 hrs 46 mins ago
General Motors Corp. may no longer be the world's biggest
automaker, but it still operates the country's largest pension
fund. The threat to its pension plans has always been an issue,
butit took on a new urgency when GM disclosed April 7 that its
plans were underfunded by more than $27 billion, with more than
half of that being owed to U.S. workers and retirees. Across
town, a post- bankrupt Chrysler faces its own pension shortfall.
Moreover, a report last week from the Government Accounting
Office (GAO) says the pension crisis in the auto industry could
create an unprecedented crisis for the federal Pension Benefit
Guarantee Corp., a government-sponsored organization to backstop
company pensions.
<snip>
It is clear the "fall-out" from the economic implosion is far
from over.
Wes
>General Motors Corp. may no longer be the world's biggest
>automaker, but it still operates the country's largest pension
>fund. The threat to its pension plans has always been an issue,
>butit took on a new urgency when GM disclosed April 7 that its
>plans were underfunded by more than $27 billion, with more than
>half of that being owed to U.S. workers and retirees. Across
>town, a post- bankrupt Chrysler faces its own pension shortfall.
>Moreover, a report last week from the Government Accounting
>Office (GAO) says the pension crisis in the auto industry could
>create an unprecedented crisis for the federal Pension Benefit
>Guarantee Corp., a government-sponsored organization to backstop
>company pensions.
><snip>
>
>It is clear the "fall-out" from the economic implosion is far
>from over.
Those retires better husband their money. Reality is going to come home in the next few
years or next administration.
What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare bankruptcy? Government
pension obligations are another ticking timebomb.
Wes
John R. Carroll
> F. George McDuffee <gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
>
>> General Motors Corp. may no longer be the world's biggest
>> automaker, but it still operates the country's largest pension
>> fund. The threat to its pension plans has always been an issue,
>> butit took on a new urgency when GM disclosed April 7 that its
>> plans were underfunded by more than $27 billion, with more than
>> half of that being owed to U.S. workers and retirees. Across
>> town, a post- bankrupt Chrysler faces its own pension shortfall.
>> Moreover, a report last week from the Government Accounting
>> Office (GAO) says the pension crisis in the auto industry could
>> create an unprecedented crisis for the federal Pension Benefit
>> Guarantee Corp., a government-sponsored organization to backstop
>> company pensions.
>> <snip>
>>
>> It is clear the "fall-out" from the economic implosion is far
>> from over.
>
> Those retires better husband their money. Reality is going to come
> home in the next few years or next administration.
What reality is that Wes?
>
> What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare
> bankruptcy?
Municipalities have been going tits up all over the country for the last
three years or so.
>Government pension obligations are another ticking
> timebomb.
How's that?
--
John R. Carroll
Wes
>Wes wrote:
>> F. George McDuffee <gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
>>
>>> General Motors Corp. may no longer be the world's biggest
>>> automaker, but it still operates the country's largest pension
>>> fund. The threat to its pension plans has always been an issue,
>>> butit took on a new urgency when GM disclosed April 7 that its
>>> plans were underfunded by more than $27 billion, with more than
>>> half of that being owed to U.S. workers and retirees. Across
>>> town, a post- bankrupt Chrysler faces its own pension shortfall.
>>> Moreover, a report last week from the Government Accounting
>>> Office (GAO) says the pension crisis in the auto industry could
>>> create an unprecedented crisis for the federal Pension Benefit
>>> Guarantee Corp., a government-sponsored organization to backstop
>>> company pensions.
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> It is clear the "fall-out" from the economic implosion is far
>>> from over.
>>
>> Those retires better husband their money. Reality is going to come
>> home in the next few years or next administration.
>
>What reality is that Wes?
When GM can't make its obligations and turns over the pension to PBGC they (workers) will
learn how that guarantee works, just like many that worked for the airlines. Their
benefits they *thought* they secured in the easy days will get trimmed.
>>
>> What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare
>> bankruptcy?
>
>Municipalities have been going tits up all over the country for the last
>three years or so.
So what happened? Did creditors take over municipal property?
>
>>Government pension obligations are another ticking
>> timebomb.
>
>How's that?
If congress can think about changing the deal on social security they sure can change the
deal on pensions. We just saw raw power exerted from one side of the aisle on health
care. Imagine if it was bipartisan.
People with defined benefits that are not fully funded are in for a suprise.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
John R. Carroll
I don't think that will come as any surprise to anyone, including retirees.
>
>>>
>>> What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare
>>> bankruptcy?
>>
>> Municipalities have been going tits up all over the country for the
>> last three years or so.
>
> So what happened? Did creditors take over municipal property?
It depends.
Sometimes that's exactly what happens and sometimes not.
There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their new
waste treatment plant.
I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all legal)
that were run on local governments.
In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in jail.
Anyway, here is a decent answer to your question. The number of BK's cited
is much, much larger today than in 2008 when this was written.
We know that individuals and corporations can declare bankruptcy, but entire
cities?
That is exactly what officials in Vallejo, Calif., are contemplating. And
they are not alone. There's a long and sad history of municipalities
declaring bankruptcy. Here's a look at how these places got into hot water -
and what life is like for residents of a bankrupt town.
Why do cities and towns declare bankruptcy?
For the same reason that individuals and corporations do. They're broke and
can't pay their debts. This might be because of an unexpected expense - say,
a costly lawsuit - or a sudden shortfall in revenue, due to falling property
values, for instance. Either way, declaring bankruptcy protects cities and
towns from their creditors, just as it does for individuals and
corporations. (In Vallejo's case, bankruptcy offers another benefit: It
would allow the city to renegotiate costly labor contracts with
public-safety employees, which reportedly account for about 80 percent of
the city's general fund budget.)
The one main difference: Municipalities can't liquidate assets to pay off
their creditors - the mayor can't sell the town fire engine to pay the bank.
Have municipalities always been able to declare bankruptcy?
No. For most of U.S. history, cities and towns were not eligible for
bankruptcy protection. But during the Great Depression, more than 2,000
municipalities defaulted on their debt, and they pleaded with President
Roosevelt for a federal bailout. "All they got was sympathy," reported Time
magazine in 1933. Instead, Roosevelt pushed through changes to the
bankruptcy laws that allow towns and cities to file for bankruptcy. They
even got their own section of the bankruptcy code: Chapter Nine.
How many municipalities have sought bankruptcy protection?
Since 1980, 32 cities and towns have declared bankruptcy, according to James
Spiotta, a leading municipal bankruptcy lawyer. Most notable of these were
Bridgeport, Conn., population 140,000, which declared bankruptcy in 1991.
And, in the nation's biggest municipal bankruptcy, Orange County, Calif.,
sought protection from its creditors in 1994 after city officials made a
series of bad investments.
What is life like in a "bankrupt" city or town?
In one sense, life goes on as usual. Police and fire departments still
respond to 911 calls; the garbage is still collected. But don't expect that
new bridge or school to be built. For a bankrupt city, all new projects must
be approved by a majority of creditors. The biggest hit, though, is to the
city's image. Bankruptcy carries a much greater stigma for a city than for a
corporation, which is why officials go to great lengths to avoid Chapter
Nine.
If a city or town declares bankruptcy, does it affect others nearby?
Yes. Surrounding cities and towns can find it harder to borrow money for new
projects because investors - who buy and sell bonds - will question their
financial viability. That's why states often intervene to prop up a
faltering municipality and avoid the sting of bankruptcy. Sometimes all it
takes for a town or city to get help from the state capital is the mere
threat of bankruptcy. "It's an instrument of getting attention and getting
others to help you," Spiotta says.
What about New York City? Didn't it declare bankruptcy in the 1970s?
No, but it came close. The city was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy in
1975 when it appealed to Washington for a bailout. President Ford balked,
prompting the famous Daily News headline "Ford to City: Drop Dead." (Ford
never actually uttered those exact words.) In the end, Congress did pony up
some money for New York, and the city formed the Municipal Assistance
Corp. - a quasi-government body that, in effect, allowed New York to lend
money to itself. Other big cities - Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Miami - have
flirted with bankruptcy in recent decades but not actually declared it.
Are we likely to see more towns and cities declare bankruptcy in the future?
That's difficult to say, but some experts believe the warning signs are
clear: unfunded pension liabilities, an anemic economy, costly
infrastructure repairs and falling property values. "All of the ingredients
are there," Spiotta says. "I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see more
bankruptcies."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=60740288
>
>>
>>> Government pension obligations are another ticking
>>> timebomb.
>>
>> How's that?
>
> If congress can think about changing the deal on social security they
> sure can change the deal on pensions.
I'm not sure Congress has considered "changing the deal" on SS.
I'm not aware of such an effort anyway. AFAIK, there has never been a real,
serious or considered effort to do anything but collect more money.
"The Deal" is that benefit payments can't be greater than the sum of cash on
hand and revenues, something that hasn't changed - ever.
>We just saw raw power exerted
> from one side of the aisle on health care. Imagine if it was
> bipartisan.
>
> People with defined benefits that are not fully funded are in for a
> suprise.
Again, I don't think they will be surprised at all. They certainly shouldn't
be.
The people getting the surprise will be their family members who will have
to step up and make ends meet.
--
John R. Carroll
azotic
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
news:Y-GdnfUaDpTdMVrW...@giganews.com...
> Wes wrote:
>> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>
> There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their
> new
> waste treatment plant.
> I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
> legal)
> that were run on local governments.
> In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
> jail.
I think this is the story:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/32906678/looting_main_street/1
A very intresting read.
Best Regards
Tom.
John R. Carroll
That was it.
--
John R. Carroll
Gunner Asch
I rather liked this comment...
"In theory, a union is a good idea. In practice, it creates a mob-run
special interest group."
Very true too.
Gunner Asch
GAAAAACK!!!!
Oh those poor bastards.
Sigh
Ignoramus22048
government, should be allowed to assume expected returns about 2% over
inflation, for the purposes of determining adequacy of reserves. (and
similar rules need to be introduced in GAAP).
i
F. George McDuffee
<ClutchAtL...@Gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare bankruptcy? Government
>pension obligations are another ticking timebomb.
Indeed and the ticking is getting louder.
I am not an attorney, but under current law, counties and
municipalities can indeed declare bankruptcy under title/chapter
9 of the bankruptcy code, and several have done so, e.g. Orange
County California.
http://www.uscourts.gov/bankruptcycourts/bankruptcybasics/chapter9.html
http://www.la-par.org/Publications/PDF/Municipal%20Bankruptcy.pdf
Note that some states have enacted legislation preventing their
counties and municipalities from declaring bankruptcy without the
permission of the legislature [which is never given].
It does not appear under current law that a state can use the
bankruptcy process as these are legally sovereign, albeit
subordinated to the Federal government, although this is subject
to change with the stroke of a pen on a judicial decree. Another
possible outcome would be a change in the name of the process
from bankruptcy to conservatorship, ala the GSE operations such
as Fannie and Freddie, which may avoid triggering the CDS
derivatives.
The major problem is that the bankruptcy process was never
intended to "fix the problem," for local governments but rather
to provide some "breathing room" while a solution was devised and
implemented. There appears to be no provision for some sort of
chapter 7 liquidation of a governmental entity with total removal
of existing officials and employees, seizure of assets,
abrogation of contracts, etc. so the problems simply continue to
fester and grow, even with a debt repayment "time out." Detroit
Michigan, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania are examples.
The base problem appears to be the continual evasion of [state]
constitutional prohibitions on running a deficit, and the total
denial by the politicians, functionaries and apparatchiks of the
fact that the money to sustain, what they perceive as, critical
and necessary public spending is simply not there and in fact
never was.
This is not a "new" problem, but one that dates back to at least
the 1970s with the deindustrilization and [productive] population
loss of the affected areas. Again, Detroit is a poster child. In
the early 60s Detroit had a population in excess of 2 million,
with considerable productive [tax paying] industry. Currently
the population is less than 800,000 [and falling] and [most]
industry has left, yet municipal Detroit is attempting to
maintain the same numbers of police, fire, school teachers,
governmental administrators, existing governmental programs,
pensions, etc. It can't be done.
It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
least up to the PBGC limits. It all depends how the state/local
governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
and "looted" just like the private pension plans.
F. George McDuffee
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>Sometimes that's exactly what happens and sometimes not.
>There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their new
>waste treatment plant.
>I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all legal)
>that were run on local governments.
>In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in jail.
==========
Among others see Harrisburg PA.
<snip>
The $68 million in debt service payments that Harrisburg faces in
connection with the construction of a waste incinerator this year
is four times what the city of 47,000 expects to raise through
property taxes, and $4 million more than the city’s entire
proposed operating budget.
<snip>
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ihBl6A1OTnPRe8wQQoj1zvemTpygD9F11AT80
Incinerator project burns up Pa. capital's cash
By MARC LEVY (AP) – 4 days ago
HARRISBURG, Pa. — This capital city was near total collapse three
decades ago — its department stores, theaters and trolleys were
gone, replaced by vacant buildings and streets devoid of any
nightlife.
A huge effort, thanks partly to an energetic mayor, brought the
Susquehanna River city of 47,000 back from the brink. Today,
professionals and state office workers pack the restaurants,
hotels and arts venues that helped restore its respectability.
Along the way, city leaders thought they could transform their
aging, debt-laden trash incinerator into a clean, efficient
moneymaker. But costs exploded and massive debt payments due this
year on the incinerator threaten to drag the city into
bankruptcy.
<snip>
Some residents wonder whether fear of a huge property tax hike to
help pay down the $280-plus million in debt tied to the
incinerator will spur a rash of "for-sale" signs just as the city
had hoped to end a 60-year population slide.
"We're in trouble," said Bill Cluck, an environmental and
land-use lawyer who lives in Harrisburg and closely monitors city
affairs. "If you can get out of the city, get out of the city.
That's the perception."
Harrisburg's bad credit rating, in part, reflects the stretched
finances of a city devastated by the loss of its heavy
manufacturing core. Almost half its property is tax-exempt and
more than a quarter of its families live in poverty, nearly three
times the national rate, census figures show.
Bad spending decisions are synonymous with Harrisburg's recent
history. Former Mayor Stephen Reed was sharply criticized for
secretly spending millions of dollars in public money on such
artifacts as an Egyptian mummy and a bright red Wells Fargo & Co.
stagecoach for museums that never got built.
The trash incinerator began operating in view of a large housing
project on the city's industrial southern edge in 1972, one of
scores of incinerators built across the country in the last 40
years. It first generated steam heat for steel mills and downtown
office buildings and in the 1980s, it began generating
electricity.
But it also spewed cancer-causing dioxins into the air, and
pressure from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency led to the
plant's shutdown in 2003. It didn't become fully operational
again until 2008, after the costly overhaul.
The incinerator still isn't making money, even with city
residents paying some of the highest trash disposal fees in the
country.
With its hands tied by a stagnant tax base even before the
recession, Harrisburg faces debt payments on the incinerator this
year of $68 million, larger than the city's entire operating
budget. Little to no money in the city's budget is set aside for
the debt, which includes millions of dollars coming due in the
next two months.
<snip>
Dave__67
> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in messagenews:Y-GdnfUaDpTdMVrW...@giganews.com...
>
> > Wes wrote:
> >> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
> > There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their
> > new
> > waste treatment plant.
> > I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
> > legal)
> > that were run on local governments.
> > In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
> > jail.
>
> I think this is the story:
>
>
> A very intresting read.
>
> Best Regards
> Tom.
Hopefully this is recalled and remembered every time some retard
screams that all regulation is bad, and anti-capitalist.
Dave
Larry Jaques
<gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> scrawled the following:
>On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:51:39 -0400, Wes
><ClutchAtL...@Gmail.com> wrote:
><snip>
>>What I'm really interested in is can a state or city declare bankruptcy? Government
>>pension obligations are another ticking timebomb.
><snip>
>
>Indeed and the ticking is getting louder.
>It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
>obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
>American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
>least up to the PBGC limits. It all depends how the state/local
>governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
>FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
>and "looted" just like the private pension plans.
And we haven't heard of a clubbing, shooting, hanging, or
tar-and-feathering of these folks yet. Interesting.
--
STOP THE SLAUGHTER! Boycott Baby Oil!
F. George McDuffee
<lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
>>It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
>>obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
>>American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
>>least up to the PBGC limits. It all depends how the state/local
>>governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
>>FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
>>and "looted" just like the private pension plans.
>
>And we haven't heard of a clubbing, shooting, hanging, or
>tar-and-feathering of these folks yet. Interesting.
=============
While this would offer a large amount of satisfaction to many
people, in the overall scheme of things, this would accomplish
nothing, in that the basic/foundational problem of spending
[promising] more than the [falling] governmental income can
possibly cover is not addressed.
It is well to remember that the responsibility/accountability for
this problem has become so diffused that no one, other than
possibly some long-term elected officials and the scam artists
who work with them, can be held personally accountable.
It may well be that there is no "cure" in the sense that what we
are seeing is the natural evolution/development of human created
organizations. Old age and death are not pathological conditions
for living things, just the final phase, and this appears to also
be the case for artificial human constructs such as "government."
It does however appear that certain legislative actions would be
very helpful such as prescribing the maximum and minimum numbers
of governmental employees by function as a fraction of the served
population, minimum and maximum service levels for different
types/classes of governments, such as public safety, social
services and education, per capita spending caps adjusted for
inflation, minimum population, etc. Other useful limitations
could include min/max limits on the size of the municipal
governmental units by both land area and population.
One of the more critical areas is the enactment of laws mandating
the reconstitution of bankrupt municipal/county governments,
possibly at a *MUCH* lower level of services and expenditures,
with the total replacement of existing elected and appointed
officials, *AFTER* a period of direct state control with full
forensic audits and formal legal investigation to determine
exactly what went wrong (and where the money went).
It would appear that considerable improvement in debt management
could also be obtained by requiring a minimum of three bona fide
bids on governmental bond issuance, and the prohibition of credit
default and interest rate swaps, for federal tax exemption of the
municipal bond interest income. Another improvement would be the
replacement of the "custom" or "bespoke" municipal bond contracts
with a plain vanilla contract with standardized terms and
conditions. This would eliminate a considerable legal expense
and make the bidding process much easier.
When pigs fly....
Dave__67
> On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 02:32:57 -0500, the infamous F. George McDuffee
Are you kidding? One of the guys who helped cause the meltdown is
running in NY against Gillabrand.
He'll probably win, too.
Dave
John R. Carroll
> On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 06:58:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
> <lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
> <snip>
>>> It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
>>> obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
>>> American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
>>> least up to the PBGC limits. It all depends how the state/local
>>> governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
>>> FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
>>> and "looted" just like the private pension plans.
>>
>> And we haven't heard of a clubbing, shooting, hanging, or
>> tar-and-feathering of these folks yet. Interesting.
> <snip>
> =============
>
> While this would offer a large amount of satisfaction to many
> people,
I think the number is nearly zero George.
It's the blowhard talking point of cowards everywhere.
>
> It may well be that there is no "cure" in the sense that what we
> are seeing is the natural evolution/development of human created
> organizations. Old age and death are not pathological conditions
> for living things, just the final phase, and this appears to also
> be the case for artificial human constructs such as "government."
A construct with a purpose.
>
> It does however appear that certain legislative actions would be
> very helpful such as prescribing the maximum and minimum numbers
> of governmental employees by function as a fraction of the served
> population, minimum and maximum service levels for different
> types/classes of governments, such as public safety, social
> services and education, per capita spending caps adjusted for
> inflation, minimum population, etc. Other useful limitations
> could include min/max limits on the size of the municipal
> governmental units by both land area and population.
>
> One of the more critical areas is the enactment of laws mandating
> the reconstitution of bankrupt municipal/county governments,
> possibly at a *MUCH* lower level of services and expenditures,
> with the total replacement of existing elected and appointed
> officials, *AFTER* a period of direct state control with full
> forensic audits and formal legal investigation to determine
> exactly what went wrong (and where the money went).
Something already done with failed school systems.
Interesting.
>
> It would appear that considerable improvement in debt management
> could also be obtained by requiring a minimum of three bona fide
> bids on governmental bond issuance, and the prohibition of credit
> default and interest rate swaps, for federal tax exemption of the
> municipal bond interest income. Another improvement would be the
> replacement of the "custom" or "bespoke" municipal bond contracts
> with a plain vanilla contract with standardized terms and
> conditions. This would eliminate a considerable legal expense
> and make the bidding process much easier.
Defined benefit pension plans outside of the government ought to just be
illegal.
The basic flaw is in the belief or assumption that just because a
corporation CAN be around to fulfill it's pension obligations that it will
be. Corporations evolve, are bought and sold and are sometimes subsumed to
the benefit of the shareholders, not employees.
Government, OTOH, is the reverse. That's the theory anyway, and the
interests of government in our own society are whatever the interests of the
people are. That's by definition.
Defined contribution certainly has it's flaws but those flaws don't include
the expectation by the contributors of invincibility.
Conversations such as these are the beginings of a discussion of government
run pension plans that anyone, or everyone, participates in.
That's the only way to do defined benefit.
--
John R. Carroll
John R. Carroll
> Are you kidding? One of the guys who helped cause the meltdown is
> running in NY against Gillabrand.
> He'll probably win, too.
Not likely.
Malpass hasn't really got much of a chance, at least in my opinion.
Hillary Clinton and the Pelosi girls club will see to it.
--
John R. Carroll
RBnDFW
> It may well be that there is no "cure" in the sense that what we
> are seeing is the natural evolution/development of human created
> organizations. Old age and death are not pathological conditions
> for living things, just the final phase, and this appears to also
> be the case for artificial human constructs such as "government."
I bet Gunner would agree with that.
> It does however appear that certain legislative actions would be
> very helpful such as prescribing the maximum and minimum numbers
> of governmental employees by function as a fraction of the served
> population, minimum and maximum service levels for different
> types/classes of governments, such as public safety, social
> services and education, per capita spending caps adjusted for
> inflation, minimum population, etc. Other useful limitations
> could include min/max limits on the size of the municipal
> governmental units by both land area and population.
Now there's an idea worth followup.
I don't know of any government with such limitations.
> One of the more critical areas is the enactment of laws mandating
> the reconstitution of bankrupt municipal/county governments,
> possibly at a *MUCH* lower level of services and expenditures,
> with the total replacement of existing elected and appointed
> officials, *AFTER* a period of direct state control with full
> forensic audits and formal legal investigation to determine
> exactly what went wrong (and where the money went).
>
> It would appear that considerable improvement in debt management
> could also be obtained by requiring a minimum of three bona fide
> bids on governmental bond issuance, and the prohibition of credit
> default and interest rate swaps, for federal tax exemption of the
> municipal bond interest income. Another improvement would be the
> replacement of the "custom" or "bespoke" municipal bond contracts
> with a plain vanilla contract with standardized terms and
> conditions. This would eliminate a considerable legal expense
> and make the bidding process much easier.
>
>
> When pigs fly....
Indeed
F. George McDuffee
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
<snip>
>Defined benefit pension plans outside of the government ought to just be
>illegal.
>The basic flaw is in the belief or assumption that just because a
>corporation CAN be around to fulfill it's pension obligations that it will
>be. Corporations evolve, are bought and sold and are sometimes subsumed to
>the benefit of the shareholders, not employees.
>Government, OTOH, is the reverse. That's the theory anyway, and the
>interests of government in our own society are whatever the interests of the
>people are. That's by definition.
>
>Defined contribution certainly has it's flaws but those flaws don't include
>the expectation by the contributors of invincibility.
>Conversations such as these are the beginings of a discussion of government
>run pension plans that anyone, or everyone, participates in.
>That's the only way to do defined benefit.
<snip>
It continues to amaze me that corporations and government units
contend they can do a better job of money management with
part-time amateur help, political appointees, and minimal to no
[use of] actuarial capabilities/techniques, than the dedicated
insurance companies can do with their professional staffs,
economies of scale, and generations of experience.
One possible way around these problems is to eliminate the
employer controlled pension plans by mandating the purchase of an
annuity policy to cover the defined benefits from a well rated
insurance company when a pension vests, with annual updates to
the policy as additional benefits accrue. Historically,
well-rated insurance companies have been closely regulated, with
minimal losses. This also allows easy pension portability when
changing employers, i.e. the annuity policy is owned by the
covered employee, not the employer.
As this removes control of the money from the
employer/governmental unit, eliminates large numbers of
patronage/sinecure positions, reduces skimming opportunities, and
obliterates the fantasy of low cost financing, this will never
occur.
dca...@krl.org
associates.us>
> One possible way around these problems is to eliminate the
> employer controlled pension plans by mandating the purchase of an
> annuity policy to cover the defined benefits from a well rated
> insurance company when a pension vests, with annual updates to
> the policy as additional benefits accrue.
> Unka George (George McDuffee)
Where in the Constitution is there anything that says the U. S.
Government can mandate that individuals purchase anything. Is it
legal for the government to require you to purchase hamburgers from
McDonalds? McDonalds is a well rated company.
Dan
Eregon
f49fd7...@f20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
>
> Where in the Constitution is there anything that says the U. S.
> Government can mandate that individuals purchase anything. Is it
> legal for the government to require you to purchase hamburgers from
> McDonalds? McDonalds is a well rated company.
>
Q. What do you find under the Golden Arches?
A. The clown's dirty socks.
McDonalds doesn't sell food - they sell fun! (Part of the fun is trying to
find something even partly edible while getting the Rug Rats their toys.)
John R. Carroll
There is no shortage of excellent actuaries in government.
>
> One possible way around these problems is to eliminate the
> employer controlled pension plans by mandating the purchase of an
> annuity policy to cover the defined benefits from a well rated
> insurance company when a pension vests, with annual updates to
> the policy as additional benefits accrue. Historically,
> well-rated insurance companies have been closely regulated, with
> minimal losses. This also allows easy pension portability when
> changing employers, i.e. the annuity policy is owned by the
> covered employee, not the employer.
I don't care for the necessity of purchasing such things from an insurance
company.
Once you reach a certain threshold, it makes sense to hire a staff and do
everything yourself.
I think I'd probably advocate for a government old age pension benefit if
the benefit were defined.
No matter what happens, the government will end up directly participating
anyway.
Just look at the financial services business today.
>
> As this removes control of the money from the
> employer/governmental unit, eliminates large numbers of
> patronage/sinecure positions, reduces skimming opportunities, and
> obliterates the fantasy of low cost financing, this will never
> occur.
This will all depend on how the health-care reform works out.
Should America end up with a good, affordable single payer system, the next
up will be pensions.
--
John R. Carroll
Wes
>> There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their
>> new
>> waste treatment plant.
>> I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all
>> legal)
>> that were run on local governments.
>> In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in
>> jail.
>
>I think this is the story:
>
>http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/32906678/looting_main_street/1
>
>
>A very intresting read.
Sure was. If the story was true, there should be a RICO prosecution of the bank.
Wes
Wes
>Government, OTOH, is the reverse. That's the theory anyway, and the
>interests of government in our own society are whatever the interests of the
>people are. That's by definition.
I believe the Tea Party would disagree.
Wes
John R. Carroll
They'd agree completely Wes, and wouldn't exist if they didn't.
--
John R. Carroll
Wes
No, they exist because government isn't responding to a significant part of the
populations interests. When you see mostly conservative types out protesting, it is a
clue that government is on the wrong track. It is the left that likes to protest at the
drop of a hat on any issue. My uncle, 68 years of age went to a tea party event, his
first time ever at a protest. I had to work, it could have been a twofer.
Wes
John R. Carroll
> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
>> Wes wrote:
>>> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Government, OTOH, is the reverse. That's the theory anyway, and the
>>>> interests of government in our own society are whatever the
>>>> interests of the people are. That's by definition.
>>>
>>> I believe the Tea Party would disagree.
>>
>> They'd agree completely Wes, and wouldn't exist if they didn't.
>
>
> No, they exist because government isn't responding to a significant
> part of the populations interests.
They exist because they think getting organized and changing the result at
the polls is doable.
They are mad because they are out of power and what is getting done isn't
what THEY want done.
Anytime the tea baggers want to draw a weapon to make changes, they'll end
up either dead or in jail.
We had an election Wes, several actually. The winners are carrying out the
agenda they ran on and they are doing it within the limits of what is
possible using the tools our government and the law provide. Statements to
the contrary, and there are a lot of those, are idiocy.
That idiocy can be tested in the Courts.
>When you see mostly conservative
> types out protesting, it is a clue that government is on the wrong
> track.
America has never been, isn't now, and probably never will be a country of
angry white men.
Not for long anyway.
That is what the Tea Party is. That and a revenue stream.
>It is the left that likes to protest at the drop of a hat on
> any issue. My uncle, 68 years of age went to a tea party event, his
> first time ever at a protest. I had to work, it could have been a
> twofer.
I wish you could have gone. It would have affirmed, just like the rest of
the T.P.er's do, that you believe our government really does work. That
isn't what anyone says of course, but actions speak louder than words.
Believe me Wes, I hear this stupid shit out here in California every day.
"Government doesn't work", "The peoples will is being subverted", Blah Blah
Blah. My answer, which you well know, is that it's lazy assed piss poor
voters that are the problem.
There is not now, nor will there ever be, a substitute for a well informed,
well educated and actively involved electorate.
Period.
--
John R. Carroll
Wes
>> No, they exist because government isn't responding to a significant
>> part of the populations interests.
>
>They exist because they think getting organized and changing the result at
>the polls is doable.
Every 2 years we can make changes, bigger changes in 4 year cycles.
>They are mad because they are out of power and what is getting done isn't
>what THEY want done.
>Anytime the tea baggers want to draw a weapon to make changes, they'll end
>up either dead or in jail.
The Tea Party types are not violent. They are very well behaved people that have had
enough and are protesting. Where do you get the drawing weapons crap? And if your use of
tea bagger is like using the word nigger. When one resorts to calling people vulgar names
because you don't agree or like them, one has lost the argument.
>
>We had an election Wes, several actually. The winners are carrying out the
>agenda they ran on and they are doing it within the limits of what is
>possible using the tools our government and the law provide. Statements to
>the contrary, and there are a lot of those, are idiocy.
>That idiocy can be tested in the Courts.
Yes, we had an election. President Obama ran an awesome campaign and didn't slide in on a
squeaker. That is about the only good thing I have to say about the last general
election.
It also means there will be another election 2 years later, half way into his term. This
is where the people provide positive or negative feedback to the political system. From
the current administration perspective, I'm of the opinion it will be negative but
positive from mine.
>
>>When you see mostly conservative
>> types out protesting, it is a clue that government is on the wrong
>> track.
>
>America has never been, isn't now, and probably never will be a country of
>angry white men.
89% of the tea party are white. 11% are not. That is according to the NY Times, not Fox
news. As to angry white men, who do you think the founding fathers were? A bunch of
Latino's?
>Not for long anyway.
>That is what the Tea Party is. That and a revenue stream.
Money in politics? What a shock!
>
>
>>It is the left that likes to protest at the drop of a hat on
>> any issue. My uncle, 68 years of age went to a tea party event, his
>> first time ever at a protest. I had to work, it could have been a
>> twofer.
>
>I wish you could have gone. It would have affirmed, just like the rest of
>the T.P.er's do, that you believe our government really does work. That
>isn't what anyone says of course, but actions speak louder than words.
I believe government is starting to hit the rocks. Dishonest accounting is coming home to
roost. Fox had a lot of funs with that Pastor and 'Chickens coming home to roost'
statement but I really think he had something going on there.
>
>Believe me Wes, I hear this stupid shit out here in California every day.
>"Government doesn't work", "The peoples will is being subverted", Blah Blah
>Blah. My answer, which you well know, is that it's lazy assed piss poor
>voters that are the problem.
There is a point I can agree with. A re-occurring topic at the family dinner table is the
lack of character in many people. When politicians promise bread and circuses, don't be
surprised those without character vote them in.
>
>There is not now, nor will there ever be, a substitute for a well informed,
>well educated and actively involved electorate.
>Period.
Another point I can agree with. However the system works on turn out. I really hate that
way of working elections. Just let those that really care show up and vote. But no, we
have groups that round up people that normally would never vote and get them to the polls
with a little cheat sheet to help them vote.
Wes
John R. Carroll
> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
>>> No, they exist because government isn't responding to a significant
>>> part of the populations interests.
>>
>> They exist because they think getting organized and changing the
>> result at the polls is doable.
>
> Every 2 years we can make changes, bigger changes in 4 year cycles.
But it isn't a five minute deal Wes.
It takes years to groom a real politician and the people doing the grooming
are the electorate.
This is something that has changed a lot over the course of my lifetime.
I met Bob Barr and Dave Bonier because I was introduced by people farther up
the political food chain.
A lot farther up.
The purose of those introductions, and others, was to build a base and also
to ferret out up and coming politicians that didn't cut it.
There is a lot less of that sort of thing in todays world. The old geezers
want to hang on forever and are threatened by the young and ambitious.
>
>> They are mad because they are out of power and what is getting done
>> isn't what THEY want done.
>> Anytime the tea baggers want to draw a weapon to make changes,
>> they'll end up either dead or in jail.
>
> The Tea Party types are not violent. They are very well behaved
> people that have had enough and are protesting. Where do you get the
> drawing weapons crap?
There are two ways to make changes. Inside by exercising the rights and
responsibilities of any citizen, and revolt.
Michelle Bachman said that our country was being run by "Gangster
Government" today. It's hard to reconcile that with the fact that she is our
government. That makes her a "Gangster".
>And if your use of tea bagger is like using
> the word nigger. When one resorts to calling people vulgar names
> because you don't agree or like them, one has lost the argument.
Hey, they took the name for themselves. You have to remember that the Tea
Bag Express is a corporation.
It exists to provide a revenue stream to the public relations group that
spawned it.
>
>>
>> We had an election Wes, several actually. The winners are carrying
>> out the agenda they ran on and they are doing it within the limits
>> of what is possible using the tools our government and the law
>> provide. Statements to the contrary, and there are a lot of those,
>> are idiocy.
>> That idiocy can be tested in the Courts.
>
> Yes, we had an election. President Obama ran an awesome campaign and
> didn't slide in on a squeaker. That is about the only good thing I
> have to say about the last general election.
The result is what counts and you can deny it all you want but that result
reflected the will of those that participated in the election.
Buyers remorse is correctable.
>
> It also means there will be another election 2 years later, half way
> into his term. This is where the people provide positive or negative
> feedback to the political system. From the current administration
> perspective, I'm of the opinion it will be negative but positive from
> mine.
>
>
>>
>>> When you see mostly conservative
>>> types out protesting, it is a clue that government is on the wrong
>>> track.
>>
>> America has never been, isn't now, and probably never will be a
>> country of angry white men.
>
> 89% of the tea party are white. 11% are not. That is according to
> the NY Times, not Fox news. As to angry white men, who do you think
> the founding fathers were? A bunch of Latino's?
No but they weren't just "angry". In fact, they weren't very angry at all.
What they were was pretty rational. Not all of them, but most.
>
>> Not for long anyway.
>> That is what the Tea Party is. That and a revenue stream.
>
> Money in politics? What a shock!
The money is flowing in the other direction Wes. Out of "political" events,
not into politics.
>>
>>
>>> It is the left that likes to protest at the drop of a hat on
>>> any issue. My uncle, 68 years of age went to a tea party event, his
>>> first time ever at a protest. I had to work, it could have been a
>>> twofer.
>>
>> I wish you could have gone. It would have affirmed, just like the
>> rest of the T.P.er's do, that you believe our government really does
>> work. That isn't what anyone says of course, but actions speak
>> louder than words.
>
> I believe government is starting to hit the rocks. Dishonest
> accounting is coming home to roost. Fox had a lot of funs with that
> Pastor and 'Chickens coming home to roost' statement but I really
> think he had something going on there.
>
>>
>> Believe me Wes, I hear this stupid shit out here in California every
>> day. "Government doesn't work", "The peoples will is being
>> subverted", Blah Blah Blah. My answer, which you well know, is that
>> it's lazy assed piss poor voters that are the problem.
>
> There is a point I can agree with. A re-occurring topic at the
> family dinner table is the lack of character in many people. When
> politicians promise bread and circuses, don't be surprised those
> without character vote them in.
When politicians can't get elected on that sort of stuff, they'll quit
trying.\
See my comments above. The making of a politician isn't usually a shake and
bake process.
Well, it didn't used to be.
>
>>
>> There is not now, nor will there ever be, a substitute for a well
>> informed, well educated and actively involved electorate.
>> Period.
>
> Another point I can agree with. However the system works on turn
> out. I really hate that way of working elections. Just let those
> that really care show up and vote. But no, we have groups that round
> up people that normally would never vote and get them to the polls
> with a little cheat sheet to help them vote.
Well SURE!
LMAO
WTF do you think real political activism is Wes?
This sort of thing isn't something to be "guilty" of - it's what you DO...
That's the real business of political activism and one reason the Tea Party
might not accomplish much.
They are sure raising hell in Republican ranks though. Bennet is toast and
so is Charlie Crist.
It's a Mexican firing squad - you know - where the shooters are circled and
end up killing themselves.
I'm about six or eight months from calling the 2012 election Wes but my
instinct at this point is that Obama/Biden are going to cream Romney/Palin.
--
John R. Carroll
Ed Huntress
"Wes" <ClutchAtL...@Gmail.com> wrote in message
news:994yn.219411$rq1.2...@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
Wes, that's banks doing bank business. That's what freewheeling competition
in the financial industry breeds. It's another case of market failure.
And Matt Taibbi, as much as I love his writing, sometimes runs a little over
the top with his interpretations of the facts. d8-)
--
Ed Huntress
John R. Carroll
Hey Ed.
Pretty funny that 41 Republican's sent off their anti-reform letter on the
same day Goldman got popped don't you think.
The letter preceded the indictment by a couple of hours.
I laughed so hard thinking of how Boehner, and especially McConnell, were
probably cursing everything in sight I nearly peed my pants.
You couldn't make this stuff up.
--
John R. Carroll
Ed Huntress
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
news:E6SdnQym7Mjyg1TW...@giganews.com...
Yeah, this is shaping up pretty good. At the very least, the take-home story
will be that this is just a financial firm doing business -- nothing out of
the ordinary. In other words, their real business is fraud. The whole
industry is one big confidence game.
> The letter preceded the indictment by a couple of hours.
> I laughed so hard thinking of how Boehner, and especially McConnell, were
> probably cursing everything in sight I nearly peed my pants.
> You couldn't make this stuff up.
The story has become so absurd, so far beyond belief, that it's become a
farce. Where's Bozo when we really need him?
--
Ed Huntress
RAMł
$607e...@cv.net:
> The story has become so absurd, so far beyond belief, that it's become a
> farce. Where's Bozo when we really need him?
He's cooking at a McDonalds...
John R. Carroll
> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
> news:E6SdnQym7Mjyg1TW...@giganews.com...
>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> "Wes" <ClutchAtL...@Gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:994yn.219411$rq1.2...@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
>>>> "azotic" <azo...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>
>> Hey Ed.
>> Pretty funny that 41 Republican's sent off their anti-reform letter
>> on the same day Goldman got popped don't you think.
>
> Yeah, this is shaping up pretty good. At the very least, the
> take-home story will be that this is just a financial firm doing
> business -- nothing out of the ordinary. In other words, their real
> business is fraud. The whole industry is one big confidence game.
And this one is exceptionally easy to explain. You don't have to understand
anything about the industry or it's terminology.
>
>> The letter preceded the indictment by a couple of hours.
>> I laughed so hard thinking of how Boehner, and especially McConnell,
>> were probably cursing everything in sight I nearly peed my pants.
>> You couldn't make this stuff up.
>
> The story has become so absurd, so far beyond belief, that it's
> become a farce. Where's Bozo when we really need him?
He's changed his name to John McCain and is about to loose a closed primary
courtesy of his sudden lack of "Maverickyness" and the pee party.
McCain has always needed the moderates to win and he'd have had them in the
general but by closing the AZ primary, Republican's might have cost
themselves a power in the Senate. I don't actually thing a lot of Arizonan's
are fond of McCain anyway.
I can understand the Republican party honcho's forgetting Anderson ( not
really but hey) It's unfathomable to me that they have forgotten that the
only reason W. got to the oval was Ralph Nader. Had Nader not taken 95,000
votes from Gore in Florida, the Supreme Court wouldn't have been able to
appoint Bush.
--
John R. Carroll
Larry Jaques
<gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> scrawled the following:
>On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 06:58:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
><lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
><snip>
>>>It appears under ERSIA and the PBGC, some of the pension
>>>obligations of these local/state governments may fall back on the
>>>American taxpayers in the case of bankruptcy/conservatorship, at
>>>least up to the PBGC limits. It all depends how the state/local
>>>governmental pension plans are legally structured and controlled.
>>>FWIW -- it appears that many of these plans have been "skimmed"
>>>and "looted" just like the private pension plans.
>>
>>And we haven't heard of a clubbing, shooting, hanging, or
>>tar-and-feathering of these folks yet. Interesting.
><snip>
>=============
>
>While this would offer a large amount of satisfaction to many
>people, in the overall scheme of things, this would accomplish
>nothing, in that the basic/foundational problem of spending
>[promising] more than the [falling] governmental income can
>possibly cover is not addressed.
Are you sure, Unk? the replacement folks might be a bit more polite
to the public in their fiscal actions.
>It is well to remember that the responsibility/accountability for
>this problem has become so diffused that no one, other than
>possibly some long-term elected officials and the scam artists
>who work with them, can be held personally accountable.
Govvy members 1-525 sign bill, Govvy members 1-525 are responsible.
The O assigns Cabinet Member 1-5, all of whom cheat on their taxes.
All 6 are guilty of something. Period. It ain't rocket science, Unk.
>It may well be that there is no "cure" in the sense that what we
>are seeing is the natural evolution/development of human created
>organizations. Old age and death are not pathological conditions
>for living things, just the final phase, and this appears to also
>be the case for artificial human constructs such as "government."
Ooh, don't say that. <shiver>
>It does however appear that certain legislative actions would be
>very helpful such as prescribing the maximum and minimum numbers
>of governmental employees by function as a fraction of the served
>population, minimum and maximum service levels for different
>types/classes of governments, such as public safety, social
>services and education, per capita spending caps adjusted for
>inflation, minimum population, etc. Other useful limitations
>could include min/max limits on the size of the municipal
>governmental units by both land area and population.
Absolutely.
>One of the more critical areas is the enactment of laws mandating
>the reconstitution of bankrupt municipal/county governments,
>possibly at a *MUCH* lower level of services and expenditures,
>with the total replacement of existing elected and appointed
>officials, *AFTER* a period of direct state control with full
>forensic audits and formal legal investigation to determine
>exactly what went wrong (and where the money went).
"Who to hang" audits, wot?
>It would appear that considerable improvement in debt management
>could also be obtained by requiring a minimum of three bona fide
>bids on governmental bond issuance, and the prohibition of credit
>default and interest rate swaps, for federal tax exemption of the
>municipal bond interest income. Another improvement would be the
>replacement of the "custom" or "bespoke" municipal bond contracts
>with a plain vanilla contract with standardized terms and
>conditions. This would eliminate a considerable legal expense
>and make the bidding process much easier.
They could also do away with highest possible union member (maximum
possible spending) on wages for every public job. I'd have to hire
people (laborers!) at twice -my- going rate to do any govvy
construction jobs because some useless Union idiot in Portland is
making that.
>When pigs fly....
After Gunner's Cull?
---
A book burrows into your life in a very profound way
because the experience of reading is not passive.
--Erica Jong
Gunner Asch
<lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
There will be many job openings then.
At least for dozer operators.
<VBG>
Gunner
>
>---
>A book burrows into your life in a very profound way
>because the experience of reading is not passive.
> --Erica Jong
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.
This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
Larry Jaques
<gunne...@gmail.com> scrawled the following:
>On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 22:47:34 -0700, Larry Jaques
><lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:06:08 -0500, the infamous F. George McDuffee
>><gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> scrawled the following:
>>>When pigs fly....
>>
>>After Gunner's Cull?
>
>There will be many job openings then.
>
>At least for dozer operators.
>
><VBG>
And quicklime plant workers, ah reckon?
F. George McDuffee
<lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
>>One of the more critical areas is the enactment of laws mandating
>>the reconstitution of bankrupt municipal/county governments,
>>possibly at a *MUCH* lower level of services and expenditures,
>>with the total replacement of existing elected and appointed
>>officials, *AFTER* a period of direct state control with full
>>forensic audits and formal legal investigation to determine
>>exactly what went wrong (and where the money went).
>
>"Who to hang" audits, wot?
=========
While this is one possible outcome, the intention is to determine
what went wrong, not who did wrong.
As it stands, all we know for sure from the available information
is that something has and is going very wrong. It appears
astrologers make poor investment advisors [ala Orange county,
California]. It should be noted that the astrologers involved
may have been very good astrologers, and very good moral people,
but the results were still a disaster, so better and/or more
moral astrologers is most likely not the answer, nor would tarot
readers be any better.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1683&dat=19980725&id=VKQaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fi4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5326,5062430
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=19951229&id=bqosAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EhUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6526,5240309
http://www.worldfreeinternet.net/news/nws25.htm
To be sure, it appears that the reason(s) are obvious, but this
is unavoidably filtered through ideological lenses. The fact
this keeps occurring indicates that either the actual causes have
not been identified and/or the correct legal prohibitions,
proscriptions and prescriptions have not yet been enacted and/or
enforced.
An analogy is public health. Until the causes of the pandemics
were identified [germ theory of disease] and basic changes made,
e.g. the public supply of safe drinking water, sanatation/trash
removal and pure food laws, the "morality" of the people involved
had little to no effect.
Gunner Asch
<lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:46:51 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
><gunne...@gmail.com> scrawled the following:
>
>>On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 22:47:34 -0700, Larry Jaques
>><lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:06:08 -0500, the infamous F. George McDuffee
>>><gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> scrawled the following:
>
>>>>When pigs fly....
>>>
>>>After Gunner's Cull?
>>
>>There will be many job openings then.
>>
>>At least for dozer operators.
>>
>><VBG>
>
>And quicklime plant workers, ah reckon?
Nah...simply put em into the ground with a dozer, bury em deep and in
only a few years...the trees and grass and flowers are bright and tall
and pretty.
Quicklime tends to prevent proper plant growth.
Gunner
>
>---
>A book burrows into your life in a very profound way
>because the experience of reading is not passive.
> --Erica Jong
F. George McDuffee
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
<snip>
>There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their new
>waste treatment plant.
>I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all legal)
>that were run on local governments.
>In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in jail.
============
This appears to be a worldwide phonomania.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a30KHZKX1WJo&pos=15
<snip>
April 15 (Bloomberg) -- The worst global financial crisis in 70
years arrived in Saint-Etienne this month, as embedded financial
obligations began to blow up.
A bill came due for 1.18 million euros ($1.61 million) owed to
Deutsche Bank AG under a contract that initially saved the French
city money. The 800-year-old town refused to pay, dodging for now
one of 10 derivatives so speculative no bank will buy them back,
said Cedric Grail, the municipal finance director. They would
cost about 100 million euros to cancel today, he said.
�It�s a joke that we�re in markets like this,� said Grail, 38,
from the 19th-century city hall fronted by an arched facade and
the words Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite. �We�re playing the dollar
against the Swiss franc until 2042.�
<snip>
===========
FWIW -- history appears to be repeating itself. The great
depression occurred in 2 waves in the United States. First there
was the bursting of the domestic stock market bubble, and then as
recovery from this was starting, the international finance bubble
burst, starting with the default of a number of municipal bonds
in Germany (largely sold because of the U.S. Dawes and Young
plans) which exposed the entire global flim-flam and toppled the
world's financial structure, which in many cases did not recover
until after WW2. Indeed, the case can be made the global
financial structure never "recovered," but rather the weaker
participants simply died off, much as the bubonic plagues in
Europe ended when everyone susceptible to the plague had died.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Plan
<snip>
The Dawes Plan did rely on money given to Germany by the US. The
German economic state was one in which careful footing was
required, and the Dawes plan was of the nature that only with the
unrelated help of loans from the US could it succeed.
<snip>
The Dawes Plan provided short term economic benefits to the
German economy. It softened the burdens of war reparations,
stabilized the currency, and brought increased foreign
investments and loans to the German market. However, it made the
German economy dependent on foreign markets and economies, and
therefore problems with the U.S. economy (e.g. the Great
Depression) would later severely hurt Germany as it did the rest
of the western world, which was subject to debt repayments for
loans of American dollars.
After World War I, this cycle of money from U.S. loans to
Germany, which then made reparations to other European nations,
which then used the money to pay off their debts to America,
locked the western world's economy on that of the U.S.
<snip>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Plan
and a new word for most of us -- disaccumulation [first cousin to
deflation, which may morph into deaccumulation].
http://hnn.us/articles/43038.html {written 09-24-07}
<snip>
Ahem. Accumulation of capital happens insofar as any increase in
goods production and labor productivity�in a word,
growth�requires net additions to the capital stock and the labor
force, as in the period 1800-1920. Disaccumulation happens when
economic growth occurs without these additions, and indeed
proceeds as a function of declining net investment, as in the
period 1920-present. There, I said it.
Declining net investment? How so? Gross investment is composed
of replacement and maintenance of the existing capital stock,
plus net additions to the capital stock. Disaccumulation happens
when the mere replacement and maintenance of that capital stock
is sufficient to fuel economic growth on an astonishing scale.
Now, the implications are pretty weird. On the one hand, human
labor is extricated from the goods-productions process. The
horizon of socially necessary labor recedes, and the class
position once enacted by the industrial proletariat becomes
increasingly difficult to articulate. So class consciousness
gives way to other forms of identity in the 1920s and after. On
the other hand, the deferral of consumption, which presupposes
increased savings, is no longer the condition of increased
production�of growth. Consumption now becomes the condition of
growth because net investment becomes unnecessary.
And so the deferral of gratification�saving for a rainy day�leads
to economic crisis. Uh oh. As Stuart Chase exclaimed in 1934,
�a whole moral fabric is thus rent and torn.�
The Great Depression of the 1930s was the first crisis caused by
the disaccumulation of capital. In the 1920s, consumer
durables�automobiles, sure, but also radios, vacuum cleaners,
refrigerators�were already the key to growth, the new �industrial
blocs� that substituted for saving and thus offset declining net
investment. And already they were financed with the
extraordinary novelty of consumer credit, or �installment debt,�
which tripled in the decade (consumer debt on car payments
meanwhile increased 500%, as individual savings fell by half).
At the same moment, in the industrial sector, capital costs were
declining rapidly even as productivity was increasing sharply.
Just one example. In oil refining, straight-run distillation of
petroleum was replaced by �continuous thermal cracking� in the
1920s. The new process quadrupled the yield of gasoline per
barrel of crude, and yet cut refinery construction costs in half.
Similar innovation happened elsewhere in manufacturing,
particularly in the automobile industry, with two results.
First, the replacement and maintenance of the existing capital
stock were more than enough to increase productivity and output;
in other words, net investment was unnecessary to fuel fantastic
growth (64% increase in output for the decade). Second, the
labor force engaged in goods production�manufacturing,
construction, transportation�declined absolutely, not relatively,
by about 1 million.
No wonder labor�s share of national income was falling
precipitously as corporate profits soared after 1922 (an increase
of 62%). A shift to profits coincided with declining capital
requirements in goods production�that is, with a shrinking field
of remunerative outlets for domestic investment, and, for that
matter, foreign investment (most of the Eurasian land mass was
off limits to private enterprise in the 1920s due to revolutions,
civil wars, radical social movements, or Herbert Hoover�s rulings
at the Department of Commerce). That is why these profits, this
surplus capital, flooded the stock market, especially after 1926,
and fed into �high-end� consumption as well.
Meanwhile, the income required to buy the increasing output of
�low-end� consumer durables�the income now required to sustain
growth as such�was declining as a consequence of the same shift
to profits. That is why automobile sales and residential
construction stalled after 1926. And that is why Paul Krugman is
wrong to claim, in 2007, that �America has never before
experienced a disconnect between overall economic performance and
the fortunes of workers as complete as the last four years.� A
very similar disconnect happened between 1926 and 1929.
It was a perfect storm. The stock market bubble of the
late-1920s and the financial crisis of 1929 were not random
events unrelated to the �real economy.� They were the immediate
results of the disaccumulation of capital, which disallowed
growth via increasing domestic investment and thus forced higher
profits into the stock market� there was no place else to put it,
unless you wanted to buy German municipal bonds or Peruvian
consuls or Florida real estate, each a kind of risky foreign
investment.
Fast forward to our own time. The housing bubble was the
inevitable result of a savings glut that had no promising outlets
except �securitized� (bundled) mortgages underwritten not by
consumers� income but by consumers� debt. The surplus capital
accumulated by corporations could not, in other words, be
converted into �investment� except as a bet on rising prices in
the housing market, which presupposed miraculous increases either
in consumers� income or consumers� debt. There was no place else
to put it.
<snip>
Stuart Wheaton
Ed, as far as financial journalism goes, have you followed the NPR "This
American Life" / "Planet Money" Team reports about the crisis?
Of particular note were "giant pool of money"
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/355/The-Giant-Pool-of-Money
Another Frightening Show About the Economy
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/365/Another-Frightening-Show-About-the-Economy
Bad bank
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/375/bad-bank
The watchmen
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/382/The-Watchmen
And last weeks joint story with Pro publica on Magnetar
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/405/inside-job
These guys seem to be doing a very thorough autopsy on what actually
happened, and not looking for the easiest scapegoats.
Ed Huntress
"Stuart Wheaton" <sdwh...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:d8cb9$4bcbb168$d0660039$10...@FUSE.NET...
They are, and I've seen a couple of them, but I just haven't had time to
keep up. Thanks for reminding me, though. I'll try to catch up with them
online.
--
Ed Huntress
F. George McDuffee
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
<snip>
>> It continues to amaze me that corporations and government units
>> contend they can do a better job of money management with
>> part-time amateur help, political appointees, and minimal to no
>> [use of] actuarial capabilities/techniques, than the dedicated
>> insurance companies can do with their professional staffs,
>> economies of scale, and generations of experience.
>
>There is no shortage of excellent actuaries in government.
The problem is that while there are many excellent actuaries
in government and industry, when they generate
advice/projections that the elected officials, pension fund
managers, and higher administrators don't like, they are
ignored, and more palatable advice/projections are quickly
obtained from actuarial firms that will tell you what you
want to hear, even if this requires assuming a 15%
compounded ROI, a "raging bull" stock market and the
continued expansion of the real estate bubble.
One example:
http://www.sacbee.com/2010/04/11/2670053/in-assessing-blame-dont-forget.html
In most states, annuity and insurance companies do not have
this option as their actuarial assumptions and calculations
are continually monitored/checked/verified and their
accounts audited by the regulatory agencies. Play fast and
loose in these areas and the regulators will seize the
company.
John R. Carroll
All that means is that voters have got to step up for a change and hold up
their end of the bargain that is America.
Crappy politicians are the result of crappy voters.
--
John R. Carroll
F. George McDuffee
<gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:16:26 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
><nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
>>Sometimes that's exactly what happens and sometimes not.
>>There was an interesting piece recently about some podunk town and their new
>>waste treatment plant.
>>I can't remember where I saw it but it had to do with the scams (all legal)
>>that were run on local governments.
>>In the instance I viewed, several city council members might end up in jail.
>==========
>Among others see Harrisburg PA.
>
>http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-04/pennsylvania-capital-harrisburg-considers-bankruptcy-correct-.html
<snip>
========
Update on the Harrisburg soap opera.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ab6OQc35weDI
<snip>
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, which has missed $6 million in
debt payments since Jan. 1, should consider seeking Chapter
9 bankruptcy protection, City Controller Dan Miller told a
three-hour special committee hearing.
Miller, the first of four people to testify last night in an
“informational session” on insolvency convened by Gloria
Martin-Roberts, council president, said bankruptcy may offer
Harrisburg relief from $68 million in debt-service payments
this year tied to a waste-to-energy incinerator project.
<snip>
Harrisburg, the capital of Pennsylvania, the sixth-most
populous U.S. state, has guaranteed payments on $282 million
in bonds on the incinerator, run by the Harrisburg
Authority. The payments on the bonds and on a
working-capital loan this year add up to four times the
amount the city collects in property taxes each year, budget
documents show.
<snip>
The city this month skipped a $637,500 payment due on a loan
to Fairfield, New Jersey-based Covanta Holding Corp.,
operator of the incinerator.
Missed Payment
On April 23, the Harrisburg Authority told the city that it
won’t make a $425,282 payment due May 1 on a $17 million
bond issue the city has guaranteed, said Robert Kroboth,
interim finance manager. Kroboth said it isn’t likely that
the city will honor its guarantee, meaning the payment will
fall to the bond’s insurer, Hamilton, Bermuda-based Assured
Guaranty Municipal Corp.
<snip>
“It’s difficult to get into Chapter 9,” Miller said. He said
Harrisburg would have to present a proposed debt relief plan
to its creditors and get an endorsement from the state
before it could seek bankruptcy.
“You have to meet with the state Department of Economic and
Community Development and convince them you are deserving of
Chapter 9 protection,” Miller said.
<snip>
Ed Huntress
"F. George McDuffee" <gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote in message
news:3ehet5dhb8vs69029...@4ax.com...
So what happens if they can't pay the debt and they don't qualify for
Chapter 9? Do the creditors come and tear up the streets?
--
Ed Huntress
John R. Carroll
They can also just stop paying their bills and let the creditors and the
Courts force the issue.
I think if it were me I'd just go ahead and file, daring the Court and the
State to invoke any statutory bar.
Screw them I say. It would be the equivalent of an underwater home owner
sending jingle mail.
LOL
--
John R. Carroll
F. George McDuffee
========
Very good question!!! The Harrisburg homeowners and
taxpayers must be pleased as punch with this development...
It appears the bond insurance company will be on the hook to
the bond holders, and it will then be up to them to squeeze
some blood out of this particular turnip. This could get
"sticky" if Assured Guaranty Municipal Corp. domiciled in
Bermuda refuses to pay or "low balls" the claims as they are
outside U.S. jurisdiction. Also unknown are the
existance/amounts/terms of any CDSs on these bonds [bombs?].
It may well be the U.S. taxpayer will again take it in in
the shorts when AIG has to pay off.
Given that Harrisburg is the state capitol, it would seem
appropriate to open a chain of bordellos, casinos and gin
mills, possibly franchised from Nevada. Not only would this
provide a considerable revenue stream, it would also provide
considerable local employment.
http://www.chickenranchbrothel.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Ranch_%28Nevada%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada
Ed Huntress
Ha-ha! That's creative financing, George. d8-)
--
Ed Huntress
Gunner Asch
Last Updated: Wed, 04/21/2010 - 1:59pm
A senior attorney at the Homeland Security agency that enforces
immigration laws and protects the U.S. against terrorist attacks has
been convicted of three dozen corruption-related charges for posing as
an immigration judge and accepting thousands of dollars in bribes from
illegal aliens.
The assistant chief counsel for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
(Constantine Kallas) had already been indicted by a grand jury with 75
counts, including bribery, money laundering, federal worker’s
compensation fraud and a series of other serious crimes related to
accepting hefty cash bribes from dozens of foreigners seeking documents
to stay in the U.S.
This week a federal jury in Los Angeles found Kallas guilty of
conspiracy, six counts of bribery, two counts of obstruction of justice,
seven counts of fraud and misuse of entry documents, three counts of
aggravated identity theft, nine counts of making false statements to the
Department of Labor, four counts of making false statements to obtain
federal employee compensation and four counts of tax evasion. The
disgraced government official faces hundreds of years in prison.
Kallas accepted bribes of as much as $20,000 in exchange for helping
illegal immigrants who were often in the midst of deportation
proceedings. He even took a $7,000 bribe from his housekeeper and got a
smuggling case against her daughter dismissed. The crooked official also
set up two fake companies and filed false employment petitions with the
federal government for dozens of illegal immigrants.
When federal agents searched his home they found a hidden floor safe
with nearly $200,000 in cash and dozens of official immigration files.
They also found a ledger with the names of more than 60 illegal
immigrants and the amount they had paid to remain in the U.S. “legally.”
Similar internal corruption has infested other Homeland Security
agencies responsible for protecting the nation against foreign threats
in the last few years. However, the problem has been most rampant on the
front lines rather than the corporate offices like in this case.
Corruption is so widespread among federal officers guarding the
U.S.-Mexico border that the government created an internal web site
devoted to recently convicted border agents. Dozens of U.S. Customs and
Border Protection agents have been bribed with cash and attractive women
to assure the safe passage of truckloads of illegal immigrants, drugs
and other contraband into the U.S.
F. George McDuffee
==============
Public -- private -- makes no difference. For one example
of what happens when the actuaries tell the boss what s/he
wants to hear:
http://www.sacbee.com/2010/04/30/2716842/anthem-blue-cross-admits-inadvertent.html
Anthem Blue Cross admits 'inadvertent miscalculations' in
rate hikes
By Bobby Caina Calvan
Published: Friday, Apr. 30, 2010 - 12:00 am | Page 1A
Anthem Blue Cross used deeply flawed math and assumptions
when it announced plans to hike premiums by as much as 39
percent for thousands of California subscribers, the
Department of Insurance announced Thursday.
Acknowledging that it had made "inadvertent
miscalculations," the state's largest for-profit health
insurer said it would withdraw its controversial rate
filing. The company said it is considering re-submitting its
filing as soon as next month but did not disclose specifics.
The decision to withdraw its original proposal brings relief
to more than 700,000 Blue Cross subscribers in California
who buy health policies on their own.
<snip>
Insurance Commissioner Steve Poizner, a Republican running
for governor, hired an outside actuary in February to
investigate the proposed rate hike.
"We found substantial mistakes," Poizner said, adding that
the errors "would have led to massive and unjustified rate
increases. We notified Anthem of these errors, and they
admitted to the mistakes.
<snip>
=========
-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
John R. Carroll
I think you've got it backwards George.
The boss told their regulatory committee to go ahead and monkey around with
the numbers so an increase in rates would be justified.
They got caught.
--
John R. Carroll
Wes
>Wes wrote:
>> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>
>>>> No, they exist because government isn't responding to a significant
>>>> part of the populations interests.
>>>
>>> They exist because they think getting organized and changing the
>>> result at the polls is doable.
>>
>> Every 2 years we can make changes, bigger changes in 4 year cycles.
>
>But it isn't a five minute deal Wes.
>It takes years to groom a real politician and the people doing the grooming
>are the electorate.
>This is something that has changed a lot over the course of my lifetime.
>I met Bob Barr and Dave Bonier because I was introduced by people farther up
>the political food chain.
>A lot farther up.
I like B. Barr. Not so thrilled about David Bonier. After my job of 21+ years folded I
found myself in a union shop doing grunt work to get by. I was shocked to see
electioneering going on in the company lunchroom. Never saw that in a non-union firm. DB
was running at the time.
>The purpose of those introductions, and others, was to build a base and also
>to ferret out up and coming politicians that didn't cut it.
>There is a lot less of that sort of thing in todays world. The old geezers
>want to hang on forever and are threatened by the young and ambitious.
John, even politicians I like need to retire. I can't stand politicians that have never
earned a living outside of the public sector.
>
>>
>>> They are mad because they are out of power and what is getting done
>>> isn't what THEY want done.
>>> Anytime the tea baggers want to draw a weapon to make changes,
>>> they'll end up either dead or in jail.
>>
>> The Tea Party types are not violent. They are very well behaved
>> people that have had enough and are protesting. Where do you get the
>> drawing weapons crap?
>
>There are two ways to make changes. Inside by exercising the rights and
>responsibilities of any citizen, and revolt.
>Michelle Bachman said that our country was being run by "Gangster
>Government" today. It's hard to reconcile that with the fact that she is our
>government. That makes her a "Gangster".
Political speech is protected. You don't really want me to google up anti bush
statements. Some are disgusting.
>
>
>>And if your use of tea bagger is like using
>> the word nigger. When one resorts to calling people vulgar names
>> because you don't agree or like them, one has lost the argument.
>
>Hey, they took the name for themselves. You have to remember that the Tea
>Bag Express is a corporation.
>It exists to provide a revenue stream to the public relations group that
>spawned it.
Money in politics. Big surprise.
>
>>
>>>
>>> We had an election Wes, several actually. The winners are carrying
>>> out the agenda they ran on and they are doing it within the limits
>>> of what is possible using the tools our government and the law
>>> provide. Statements to the contrary, and there are a lot of those,
>>> are idiocy.
>>> That idiocy can be tested in the Courts.
>>
>> Yes, we had an election. President Obama ran an awesome campaign and
>> didn't slide in on a squeaker. That is about the only good thing I
>> have to say about the last general election.
>
>The result is what counts and you can deny it all you want but that result
>reflected the will of those that participated in the election.
>Buyers remorse is correctable.
Yes, buyers remorse is correctable. Time will tell.
>
>>
>> It also means there will be another election 2 years later, half way
>> into his term. This is where the people provide positive or negative
>> feedback to the political system. From the current administration
>> perspective, I'm of the opinion it will be negative but positive from
>> mine.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> When you see mostly conservative
>>>> types out protesting, it is a clue that government is on the wrong
>>>> track.
>>>
>>> America has never been, isn't now, and probably never will be a
>>> country of angry white men.
>>
>> 89% of the tea party are white. 11% are not. That is according to
>> the NY Times, not Fox news. As to angry white men, who do you think
>> the founding fathers were? A bunch of Latino's?
>
>No but they weren't just "angry". In fact, they weren't very angry at all.
>What they were was pretty rational. Not all of them, but most.
John, you are confusing the hell out of me on the positions you take.
>
>>
>>> Not for long anyway.
>>> That is what the Tea Party is. That and a revenue stream.
>>
>> Money in politics? What a shock!
I repeat myself. Oh well ;)
>
>The money is flowing in the other direction Wes. Out of "political" events,
>not into politics.
Huh?
I want good politicians but I want them to go away after a while. I don't think I'm going
to get what I want in this day and age. The republicans would love to see J.C. Watts run
again. Black and conservative, he doesn't seem interested. On one level I applaud him on
another level, I sure wish he would reconsider.
>
>>
>>>
>>> There is not now, nor will there ever be, a substitute for a well
>>> informed, well educated and actively involved electorate.
>>> Period.
>>
>> Another point I can agree with. However the system works on turn
>> out. I really hate that way of working elections. Just let those
>> that really care show up and vote. But no, we have groups that round
>> up people that normally would never vote and get them to the polls
>> with a little cheat sheet to help them vote.
>
>Well SURE!
>LMAO
>WTF do you think real political activism is Wes?
>This sort of thing isn't something to be "guilty" of - it's what you DO...
>That's the real business of political activism and one reason the Tea Party
>might not accomplish much.
>They are sure raising hell in Republican ranks though. Bennet is toast and
>so is Charlie Crist.
Crist wasn't a republican. Another R2D2 aka Sen Spector. See recent events.
>It's a Mexican firing squad - you know - where the shooters are circled and
>end up killing themselves.
>
>I'm about six or eight months from calling the 2012 election Wes but my
>instinct at this point is that Obama/Biden are going to cream Romney/Palin.
I'm not so sure Palin is going to be in the fight for real. Might be a decoy.
Romney/Jindal would be a killer combination. Even Romney/Barber. I'd vote for Palin in
the learning seat. (VP)
Did you catch Jindal on Lousisana's response to the oil spill? He sure seemed on top of
things.
As for Palin, did you notice the jack*ss that hacked her account is going to spend some
time in the greybar hotel? Maybe Obama will pardon him. ;)
Palin has money now, if some dickh*ad wants to go after her, go a head, she can fight back
now.
Wes
F. George McDuffee
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
=========
More on how/where the public employees pension funds
disappeared leaving the taxpayers holding the bag (full of
crap).
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/real_estate/archives/2010/05/big-lawsuit-in.html
<snip>
The suit also said CalPERS investment official Leon
Shahinian accompanied Villalobos on a trip to New York in
2007 to attend a fundraiser hosted by Leon Black, the
founder of private equity firm and frequent Villalobos
client Apollo Global Management. Two weeks later, Shahinian
recommended that the CalPERS board approve a $700 million
investment with Apollo. Eventually the board approved a $600
million deal with Apollo, one of CalPERS' biggest investment
partners.
CalPERS officials said Shahinian, who wasn't named as a
defendant in the suit, has been placed on administrative
leave, with pay.
<snip>
Read more:
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/real_estate/archives/2010/05/big-lawsuit-in.html#ixzz0nBV1cIzz
<snip>
--
-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
John R. Carroll
There are crooks in the world.
http://www.calpersresponds.com/downloads/calpers-reforms.pdf
http://www.calpersresponds.com/myths.php/myth-CalPERS-is-unsustainable
Myth: CalPERS is unsustainable.
September 23, 2009
Fact:
As a percentage of payroll, employer contribution rates are returning to
the levels of the 1980s. In fiscal years 1979-80, 1980-81, 1981-82, for
example, pensions as a percent of payroll for miscellaneous State workers
were 19 percent of payroll. View details of State Miscellaneous Tier 1
Rates.
Fact:
Employer contribution rates have been very stable over the past six years,
changing by less than 1 percent of payroll during the past six years, thanks
to our rate-smoothing policy. The expected increase in employer rates due to
the downturn will increase employer contributions by an average of 1 to 3.7
percent of payroll in 2011-12. View more information on projected increases
in employer contribution rates for public agencies.
--
John R. Carroll
F. George McDuffee
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
========
To update what was an active discussion on pension funding
with several pointed observations. Note this is on top of
the Euro [PIIGS] crisis, exploding U.S. federal debt and the
Japenese deflation. Also note the continued assumption of
8% ROI by the actuaries... [time to pee in a bottle]
Financial Times [respected Brit pub] reports
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b9d90504-6379-11df-a844-00144feab49a.html
US state pensions becoming federal issue
By Nicole Bullock in New York and Hal Weitzman in Chicago
Published: May 19 2010 20:44 | Last updated: May 19 2010
20:44
<snip>
Joshua Rauh, associate professor of finance at the Kellogg
School of Management at Northwestern University said that,
without reform, some state pensions might run out within the
decade. By 2030, as many as 31 states may not have the money
to pay pensions. And, if these funds exhaust their assets,
the size of payments for the benefits they have promised
will be too large to cover through taxes, putting pressure
on the federal government for a bail-out that could
potentially cost more than $1,000bn, he says.
<snip>
Estimates put the unfunded liabilities at between $1,000bn
and $3,000bn after years of states promising benefits but
not contributing enough in both good times and bad to cover
them.
Many states base their calculations on an 8 per cent annual
return...
<snip>
John R. Carroll
> On Thu, 6 May 2010 19:26:11 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
>> F. George McDuffee wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 05:38:26 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
>>> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>
>>>> F. George McDuffee wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:19:16 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
>>>>> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>>> <snip>
> Estimates put the unfunded liabilities at between $1,000bn
> and $3,000bn after years of states promising benefits but
> not contributing enough in both good times and bad to cover
> them.
>
> Many states base their calculations on an 8 per cent annual
> return...
> <snip>
I don't think an 8% return is unrealistic George.
Not in the long run. Even the DOW has show about 7% IIRC.
Hey, do you remember the posts about new 1099 requirements earlier?
CNN had this today:
The 1099 is a catch-all series of IRS documents used to report non-wage
income from a variety of sources like contract work, dividends, earned
interest and pension distributions. The new 1099-K aims to shine a light on
a currently hard-to-track payment stream: credit cards. Starting in 2011,
financial firms that process credit or debit card payments will be required
to send their clients, and the IRS, an annual form documenting the year's
transactions.
The rule comes with a floor to weed out the most casual retailers: The
1099-K is only required when a merchant has at least 200 payment
transactions a year totaling more than $20,000. But it applies to all
payment processors, including Paypal, Amazon.com, and others that service
very small businesses.
The goal of the new regulations is to catch income that is going unreported
to the IRS. The federal government loses an estimated $300 billion each year
from the "tax gap" between what individuals and businesses owe and what they
actually pay.
"Better information reporting helps the tax system work better by ensuring
that everyone pays what they owe," IRS Commissioner Doug Shulman explained
last year as his agency unveiled the 1099-K. "The new law gives us an
important new tool for closing the tax gap and also provides business
taxpayers better documentation to compute and report their income and
expenses."
For companies that currently report all their credit card and Paypal sales
to the IRS, the 1099-K requirement will have little impact. All the
paperwork will be done by the bank or payment processing service, and
business owners will simply receive a form at the end of the year listing
their total receipts.
The 1099 changes attached to the health care reform bill are another kettle
of fish. These massively expand the requirements for filing the "1099-Misc"
form, which companies use for recording payments to freelance workers and
other individual service providers. Until now, payments to corporations have
been exempt from 1099 rules, as have payments for the purchase of goods.
Starting in 2012, that changes. All business payments or purchases that
exceed $600 in a calendar year will need to be accompanied by a 1099 filing.
That means obtaining the taxpayer ID number of the individual or corporation
you're making the payment to -- even if it's a giant retailer like Staples
or Best Buy -- at the time of the transaction, or else facing IRS penalties.
In essence, the 1099-Misc is having its role changed from a form for
tracking off-payroll employment to one that must accompany virtually any
sizeable business transaction.
"Just with business travel it would include hotels, rental cars," Henschke
says. "Phone service: 1099. Computer service: 1099. Whoever does your
postage meter: 1099. You do a little advertising, Yellow Pages: 1099. Your
landlord: 1099. You might as well just keep them in your pocket and hand
them out as you go around every day."
http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/21/smallbusiness/1099_deluge/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin
--
John R. Carroll
Azotic
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
news:w5ydnaY3E6K_LGvW...@giganews.com...
> Starting in 2012, that changes. All business payments or purchases that
> exceed $600 in a calendar year will need to be accompanied by a 1099
> filing.
> That means obtaining the taxpayer ID number of the individual or
> corporation
> you're making the payment to -- even if it's a giant retailer like Staples
> or Best Buy -- at the time of the transaction, or else facing IRS
> penalties.
>
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/21/smallbusiness/1099_deluge/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin
>
> --
> John R. Carroll
>
>
Just think of the oppertunity that represents. All that information sitting
on
small business computers running unsecured wifi networks. Valid SS# by
the thousands just waiting to be used.
Best Regards
Tom.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
John R. Carroll
> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
> news:w5ydnaY3E6K_LGvW...@giganews.com...
>
>> Starting in 2012, that changes. All business payments or purchases
>> that exceed $600 in a calendar year will need to be accompanied by a
>> 1099 filing.
>> That means obtaining the taxpayer ID number of the individual or
>> corporation
>> you're making the payment to -- even if it's a giant retailer like
>> Staples or Best Buy -- at the time of the transaction, or else
>> facing IRS penalties.
>>
>>
>>
http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/21/smallbusiness/1099_deluge/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin
>>
>
> sitting on
> small business computers running unsecured wifi networks. Valid SS# by
> the thousands just waiting to be used.
I've been thinking that and more.
I think al of this is likely to create at least as many problems as it
solves and those problems might be significant as opposed to trivial
nuisances or some extra paperwork.
--
John R. Carroll
azotic
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
Everyone should be concerned. Goole has been harvesting Wifi data
and MAC numbers from unsecured networks Where i live there are
6 unsecured wifi networks that i can log onto. One of them is an
electrical contractors business. Scarry how careless small businesses
can be. When asked for my SS# i ask why they need it, then i refuse.
Google said it collected Wi-Fi network data, such as SSID (Service Set
Identifier) information and MAC (Media Access Control) addresses. The
company said it only collected fragments of personal Web traffic as its
Wi-Fi equipment automatically changed channels five times a second. Wi-Fi
networks can carry several megabytes of data per second.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/196765/germany_launches_criminal_investigation_of_google.html
Google admitted in a blog post Friday that its Street View cars had
unintentionally intercepted fragments of data from open Wi-Fi networks for
periods of 200 milliseconds at a time. Google said that it didn't know that
it was collecting or storing this information.
The lawsuit asserts that Google willfully obtained and stored private
information from personal Wi-Fi hotspots as its vehicles, equipped with
cameras and "packet sniffers" drove around neighborhoods throughout Oregon.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30686_3-20005515-266.html
Best Regards
Tom.
Ignoramus28763
> Everyone should be concerned. Goole has been harvesting Wifi data
> and MAC numbers from unsecured networks Where i live there are
> 6 unsecured wifi networks that i can log onto. One of them is an
> electrical contractors business. Scarry how careless small businesses
> can be. When asked for my SS# i ask why they need it, then i refuse.
>
> Google said it collected Wi-Fi network data, such as SSID (Service Set
> Identifier) information and MAC (Media Access Control) addresses. The
> company said it only collected fragments of personal Web traffic as its
> Wi-Fi equipment automatically changed channels five times a second. Wi-Fi
> networks can carry several megabytes of data per second.
I would not worry, what bad can come out from a few packets collected
by a passing car. There is software to crack WEP networks, I could
crack up to 5 networks per hour, that's even scarier.
i
F. George McDuffee
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
<snip>
======
This appears to be the actions of an organization that
knows, if only subliminally, that its days are numbered.
While I was working in industry I have seen this pattern of
activity [minute attention to detail, intrusive monitoring,
and obsession with trivia] repeated several times, always as
a precursor to individual and/or organizational disaster.
On reflection it appears that the manage(rs)/(ment) involved
could feel the situation slipping out of their control and
were attempting to exercise what little authority they had
left to the maximum extent possible under the assumption
that their actions and activities were not responsible for
the organization's problems.
While this will most likely produce at most a small net
revenue increase, i.e. collections over expenses, at the
federal level, the data collected, when provided to the
states, will allow them to collet the "use" taxes in lieu of
sales taxes that most of us don't pay on our out of state
catalog and internet purchases. This is VAT by the
backdoor.
John R. Carroll
> On 2010-05-22, azotic <azo...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Everyone should be concerned. Goole has been harvesting Wifi data
>> and MAC numbers from unsecured networks Where i live there are
>> 6 unsecured wifi networks that i can log onto. One of them is an
>> electrical contractors business. Scarry how careless small businesses
>> can be. When asked for my SS# i ask why they need it, then i refuse.
>>
>> Google said it collected Wi-Fi network data, such as SSID (Service
>> Set Identifier) information and MAC (Media Access Control)
>> addresses. The company said it only collected fragments of personal
>> Web traffic as its Wi-Fi equipment automatically changed channels
>> five times a second. Wi-Fi networks can carry several megabytes of
>> data per second.
>
> I would not worry, what bad can come out from a few packets collected
> by a passing car. There is software to crack WEP networks, I could
> crack up to 5 networks per hour, that's even scarier.
>
What will be proposed as a solution is better encryption and greater care.
That won't solve the problem because the real problem is the widespread use
of SSN's for purposes for which they were never intended.
There is enough digital data transmitted every day to insure the complete
exposure of nearly every American citizen to identity fraud from one
direction or another.
I do a lot of work for the government as well as the commercial aviation
industry. I'm CAES certified and PMA'd.
On that basis, I've been subject to yearly financial stress analysis and am
enrolled in four separate drug and alcohol testing programs that are
mandated by various federal agencies for the purposes of my ongoing
business.
Every single time I'm tested, I have to beat the test administrator over the
head - reminding them that I'll sue the dog snot out of them - to take
great care in their handling of the forms required as part of each test.
They just aren't diligent. More than once, the forms administrator has left
my completed form laying out in a trafficked area unsupervised, and in
several cases, the tests were conducted in clinics. These same clinics also
run drug tests on parolee's and others who wouldn't think twice about
scarfing information for a fix or $20.00.
At some point, a truly secure form of ID that can be used for identification
purposes only is going to have to be implemented.
That also has it's drawbacks but if ID fraud ever gets to the point that
confidence fails locally and over a broad range of local's, what we've just
seen in the financial services and banking sector of the worlds economies
will be child's play by comparison.
--
John R. Carroll
John R. Carroll
Good point, and one I hadn't considered.
--
John R. Carroll
Azotic
They are doing lifestyle audits again. Seems they figured
an end run on the taxpayers bill of rights. I suspect this
move will make it easier for them to get the proctoscope
out when they come a callin.