German "Prazi" Machines?
Dave Hills
Does anyone buy, use, or have information, experience, or advice on the
German made "Prazi" machines? I know they are not cheap, but are they
worth thier price? I don't believe I have seen them mentioned here
before.
--
Dave Hills, P.E.
DH Associates
Electronic Power Supply Engineering
dhi...@onramp.net
Paul C. Drahn
lathes, used but new, about 3 years ago. Very good to learn on, I think.
Soon outgrew it, however. Great for small projects!
If interested, mine is available in the Seattle area. EMAIL
pdr...@seanet.com.
The US destributor advertizes in HSM and I have purchased accessories
from them.
Good Luck on your search.
Paul.
Steve Rayner
A friend has one. It is well equipt, is accurate, and well finished.
The downside is, no back gear, and the tailstock can't be offset.
In a previous article, dhi...@onramp.net (Dave Hills) says:
>Does anyone buy, use, or have information, experience, or advice on the
>German made "Prazi" machines? I know they are not cheap, but are they
>worth thier price? I don't believe I have seen them mentioned here
>before.
>
>--
>Dave Hills, P.E.
>DH Associates
>Electronic Power Supply Engineering
>dhi...@onramp.net
>
>
--
Steve.
******************Knowledge is wasted if it is not shared.*******************
Walter Preg
Hi Dave,
I'm from Germany and I'm a _little_ bit in that machinery business. I
have never heard about a "Prazi" brand (sounds actually more Italian).
Is it a lathe or milling machine etc.?
Regards, Walter
Kurt Rieder
Dave Hills (dhi...@onramp.net) wrote:
: Does anyone buy, use, or have information, experience, or advice on the
: German made "Prazi" machines? I know they are not cheap, but are they
: worth thier price? I don't believe I have seen them mentioned here
: before.
Dave... cannot answer your question, but want to share some info that
you may want to consider. The larger Prazi lathes... 400 and 500 are
simply unavailable. They were expecting a fall delivery of these, but
all were already spoken for and their would be no more imported until
spring. Seems that only the smaller lathes are in good supply.
Kurt Rieder
Walter Preg (walte...@erlangen.netsurf.de) wrote:
: Hi Dave,
: I'm from Germany and I'm a _little_ bit in that machinery business. I
: have never heard about a "Prazi" brand (sounds actually more Italian).
: Is it a lathe or milling machine etc.?
Walter... "Prazi" is indeed a German made product, but the brand name
is not used and is unknown outside of North America. It seems that the
importer controls the whole show here, and once he is gone... who knows
where spare parts will come from. The importer will not tell the name
of the manufacturer. The literature does say that it is a 60+ year old
company in Saxony... first product was a watchmakers lathe in 1933...
and now is into benchtop CNC. Prazi offers 5 lathes... from precision
watchmaker's to a 10"x20" and a light milling machine as well. Quality
is considered high and so are the prices. With that information, perhaps
you could tell us who this company actually is and what kind of reputation
they have in Europe ! I first thought it was Italian too :-}
George
In article <52jeqd$2...@buffnet2.buffnet.net>, kri...@buffnet.net (Kurt Rieder)
wrote:
called CZ Scientific (The CZ being short for Carl Ziess - they also marketed
East German microscopes & other equipment)so I presume that the Carl Ziess (did
I spell that right?) relates to the former East German optical company of fine
camera fame.
They also market the smaller table top lathe called the hobbymat in the UK- this
is also the trade name for the vertical mill. I have both the Milling machine
and the 31/2" swing prazimat lathe and both machines have worked very well,
considering the cost was less than half that of the Myford ML7.
CZ Scientific moved premises in the UK some years ago but did not move very far
- they are still near Borehamwood, Hertfordshire.
The prazimat 31/2" lathe is very good quality workhorse, however the chuck
mounting is a little strange - it mounts on a special female taper backplate
with three quick release bolts - this makes getting extra backplates a problem
(although CZ Scientific supplied mine very fast) Also accessories are a little
thin on the ground - no 4 jaw chuck is supplied and no fixed or moving steadies
are available. you have to find your own cabinet and coolant system too - but
that is no problem.
The milling machine is also verly good value although the table feedscrews are a
little stiff on mine. The available tooling is a bit limited as the spindle is
No.1 morse taper - still it is a light duty mill & might balk a little at a 4
inch shell cutter!!!
If anyone would like more info please drop me am e-mail and I will try and help
George (Max) Townend
Geo...@legend.co.uk
Honoré de Gronckel
Walter Preg <walte...@erlangen.netsurf.de> wrote:
>Hi Dave,
>I'm from Germany and I'm a _little_ bit in that machinery business. I
>have never heard about a "Prazi" brand (sounds actually more Italian).
>Is it a lathe or milling machine etc.?
>Regards, Walter
It's called Saupe in Germany. They are located in a small village near
Chemnitz. Before the turnover ('die Wende') they exported their stuff
under the name Hobbymat and Prazi(mat) and they were cheap but good
quality. Nowadays they have doubled their prices.
Their lathes look good. A friend of mine has the SD300 and is very
satisfied with it. I considered the SD500 myself but found it too
expensive. I think they are playing in the same league as Emco-Maier
and Myford, could be the minor though.
Best, Honoré.
Chris Pollard
1992 Brochure I have shows them to have SAUPE as the manufacturer on the
German version. Brand is "Prazima" and lathe is called Superturn.
Hope this fills in the blanks.
Stefan Mueller-Pfeiffer
>>>>> "George" == George <geo...@legend.co.uk> writes:
>> Walter... "Prazi" is indeed a German made product, but the brand
>> name is not used and is unknown outside of North America. It
>> seems that the importer controls the whole show here, and once he
>> is gone... who knows where spare parts will come from. The
>> importer will not tell the name of the manufacturer. The
>> literature does say that it is a 60+ year old company in
>> Saxony... first product was a watchmakers lathe in 1933... and
>> now is into benchtop CNC. Prazi offers 5 lathes... from precision
>> watchmaker's to a 10"x20" and a light milling machine as well.
>> Quality is considered high and so are the prices. With that
>> information, perhaps you could tell us who this company actually
>> is and what kind of reputation they have in Europe ! I first
>> thought it was Italian too :-}
>>
The manufacuturer of all this equipment is
Saupe & Sohn in Limbach-Oberfrohna near Chemnitz in Saxony
In Germany, their machines are available via
Präzima Handel GmbH, in the same town as Saupe
[ ... ]
George> The prazimat 31/2" lathe is very good quality workhorse,
George> however the chuck mounting is a little strange - it mounts on
George> a special female taper backplate with three quick release
George> bolts - this makes getting extra backplates a problem
George> (although CZ Scientific supplied mine very fast) Also
George> accessories are a little thin on the ground - no 4 jaw chuck
George> is supplied and no fixed or moving steadies are available.
George> you have to find your own cabinet and coolant system too -
George> but that is no problem.
Concerning the available accessories your information seems to be out
of date. In the current Präzima price list the *is* a 4 jaw
independent chuck, both a fixed and a travelling steady and other
things (a quick change steel holder for instance, a collet holder with
a set of collets or a speed reduction kit).
George> The milling machine is also verly good value although the
George> table feedscrews are a little stiff on mine. The available
George> tooling is a bit limited as the spindle is No.1 morse taper -
George> still it is a light duty mill & might balk a little at a 4
George> inch shell cutter!!!
Saupe has changes the taper in the newer milling heads (i.e. BF 400
and BF 500 according to the german nomenclature) to MT 2.
Stefan (satisfied owner of a Saupe SD300 2-3/4 in lathe)
--
Stefan Mueller-Pfeiffer e-mail: mu...@jena.thur.de
HANLON'S RAZOR: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately
explained by stupidity.
Mr Richard Stowell
Honoré de Gronckel (H.Degr...@kfa-juelich.de) wrote:
: Walter Preg <walte...@erlangen.netsurf.de> wrote:
In Germany they are also sold under the PROXXON brand, although some JApanese small lathes are
also sold under PROXXON brand. The Milling machine seems particularly nice since it fills a
niche in between the Sherline and the much more expensive EMCO FB2
Charlie Greenman
Not sure if it's applicable, but there were (are?) TWO
Zeiss's. It's a result of WWII.
The original Zeiss was in Dresden and it became Zeiss
Jena after WWII (East Germany). The only thing I know of
that they made (being in the US) was camera lenses for
E. German cameras like Practica, Practina, and Exacta.
Some of their lenses were very good. Some weren't. I
believe they had very very little R&D money if any. And
the factory being in Dresden, well you can imagine.
The Zeiss of Zeiss Icon after WWII was (is?) in Stuttgart.
This is the company that made the Zeiss cameras (WONDERFUL
cameras), lenses (the first computer-designed lens in history
was the Planar), binocs, microscopes, etc. They were pretty
well top-dog during the heyday of European cameras (mid
1950's to mid 1960's).
My point is that the magic (to me anyway) name of Zeiss can
mean more than one level of quality... or did at one time
anyway. I don't know what happened after unification. Did
they merge? Anyone know?
/Charlie
Stefan Mueller-Pfeiffer
>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Stowell <rsto...@news.hk.super.net> writes:
In article <52seki$4...@tst.hk.super.net> rsto...@news.hk.super.net (Mr Richard Stowell) writes:
Richard> In Germany they are also sold under the PROXXON brand,
Richard> although some JApanese small lathes are also sold under
Richard> PROXXON brand. The Milling machine seems particularly nice
Richard> since it fills a niche in between the Sherline and the much
Richard> more expensive EMCO FB2
I have to challenge this statment. If you had the opportunity to
compare the recent Präzima/Saupe and Proxxon catalogues, it would be
obvious, that the metioned companies sell completly different
machines.
Stefan
Stefan Mueller-Pfeiffer
>>>>> "Charlie" == Charlie Greenman <gree...@amt.tay1.dec.com> writes:
In article <52tlf1$d...@sousa.amt.tay1.dec.com> Charlie Greenman <gree...@amt.tay1.dec.com> writes:
Charlie> Not sure if it's applicable, but there were (are?) TWO
Charlie> Zeiss's. It's a result of WWII.
Charlie> The original Zeiss was in Dresden and it became Zeiss Jena
Charlie> after WWII (East Germany). The only thing I know of that
Charlie> they made (being in the US) was camera lenses for E. German
Charlie> cameras like Practica, Practina, and Exacta. Some of their
Charlie> lenses were very good. Some weren't. I believe they had very
Charlie> very little R&D money if any. And the factory being in
Charlie> Dresden, well you can imagine.
Charlie> The Zeiss of Zeiss Icon after WWII was (is?) in Stuttgart.
Charlie> This is the company that made the Zeiss cameras (WONDERFUL
Charlie> cameras), lenses (the first computer-designed lens in
Charlie> history was the Planar), binocs, microscopes, etc. They were
Charlie> pretty well top-dog during the heyday of European cameras
Charlie> (mid 1950's to mid 1960's).
Charlie> My point is that the magic (to me anyway) name of Zeiss can
Charlie> mean more than one level of quality... or did at one time
Charlie> anyway. I don't know what happened after unification. Did
Charlie> they merge? Anyone know?
Well ... not quite correct. The original Zeiss factory was founded
exactly 150 years ago (i.e. 1846) here in Jena, Thuringia.
After WWII -- Jena was liberated by the US Army in April 1945 -- the
US authorities "took the brain" (some 150 top engineers and
scientists) of Zeiss and carried them to Oberkochen, a village near
Aalen in Suebia. This was done because due to the Jalta treaty Jena
would be in the Soviet zone and the american authorities wouldn't give
the Soviets access to the that times' top optical technology.
This "specialist-kidnapping" was the seed of Zeiss West Germany.
Carl Zeiss in Jena continued to exist after WWII, it became the
biggest and most reputable manufacturer of optical and precision
instrumentation in the communist world. In 1989 -- shortly before the
big changes in Eastern Europe -- Carl Zeiss Jena had some 40,000
employees. The product range covered everything with lenses in it :-)
starting from spectacles and ending with high end wafer steppers.
The big changes brought big changes for Zeiss as well: Zeiss Jena was
divided into several parts. The two big chunks are Jenopik Jena
(manufacturing high tech equipment) and Carl Zeiss Jena GmbH. The
ladder was "reunified" with Zeiss West Germany in Oberkochen. This
process was quite complicated as the whole reunification process in
general.
Currently Carl Zeiss Jena has some 1450 employees and Zeiss Oberkochen
has some 5000.
Zeiss Icon -- the camera division of Zeiss -- went to West Germany
after WWII, possibly to Stuttgart. The company and plant in Dresden
have been renamed to Pentagon Kamerawerke Dresden. During the whole
"socialist" era they have been manufaturing photo cameras including
photographic lenses. Their main brands have been Practica (24x36 SLR),
Pentacon six (6x6 SLR). (Btw. Carl Zeiss Jena used to manufacture
photo lenses as well.) Pentagon survived the economical turbulences
and is still producing photographical cameras for the mid price marked
segment.
Hope that helps a little. Don't hesitate to ask, if you want to know
more.
Stefan
p.s. Zeiss is present in the net. Click http://www.zeiss.de
p.p.s. I confess, I'm a little biased towards Zeiss ...
Mr Richard Stowell
Stefan Mueller-Pfeiffer (mu...@magnet.jena.thur.de) wrote:
: >>>>> "Richard" == Richard Stowell <rsto...@news.hk.super.net> writes:
: Richard> In Germany they are also sold under the PROXXON brand,
: Richard> although some JApanese small lathes are also sold under
: Richard> PROXXON brand. The Milling machine seems particularly nice
: Richard> since it fills a niche in between the Sherline and the much
: Richard> more expensive EMCO FB2
: I have to challenge this statment. If you had the opportunity to
: compare the recent Präzima/Saupe and Proxxon catalogues, it would be
: obvious, that the metioned companies sell completly different
: machines.
I have an older PROXXON catalogue. There is a model SD300 lathe which is identical to the
PRAZI Masterturn SD300 shown in my Blueridge catalogue (Gee, even the model number is the
same). The PROXXON BFW300 Mill appears similar or identical to a PRAZI BF400 Mill. Possibly
PRAZI has a BF300 model not shown in my catalogue.
The PROXXON PD360 lathe, I ahve also seen under a Japanese manufacturer's brand in Tokyo and
Hong Kong and I believe it may be made by a company named SAKAI.
Kurt Rieder
Charlie Greenman (gree...@amt.tay1.dec.com) wrote:
: Not sure if it's applicable, but there were (are?) TWO
: Zeiss's. It's a result of WWII.
They are now one again since reunification.
: The original Zeiss was in Dresden and it became Zeiss
: Jena after WWII (East Germany). The only thing I know of
The mother factory was/is in Jena... not far from Dresden.
But before WWII Zeiss was already a consortinm with works
all over Germany. After the war they supplied lenses to
manufactures in both sectors.
: that they made (being in the US) was camera lenses for
: E. German cameras like Practica, Practina, and Exacta.
: Some of their lenses were very good. Some weren't. I
: believe they had very very little R&D money if any. And
: the factory being in Dresden, well you can imagine.
: The Zeiss of Zeiss Icon after WWII was (is?) in Stuttgart.
: This is the company that made the Zeiss cameras (WONDERFUL
: cameras), lenses (the first computer-designed lens in history
: was the Planar), binocs, microscopes, etc. They were pretty
The original Planar was designed before 1900... predates
the Tessar... long before computers were available. It
has been redesigned many times.
: well top-dog during the heyday of European cameras (mid
: 1950's to mid 1960's).
I'd go with a much longer time frame than that...
perhaps 1890s - 1860s :-}
: My point is that the magic (to me anyway) name of Zeiss can
: mean more than one level of quality... or did at one time
: anyway. I don't know what happened after unification. Did
: they merge? Anyone know?
I still find it difficult to understand that there is
a connection between Zeiss and Prazi... did not someone
identify the company... as unrelated to Zeiss ?
Stefan Mueller-Pfeiffer
>>>>> "Kurt" == Kurt Rieder <kri...@buffnet.net> writes:
In article <53gile$q...@buffnet2.buffnet.net> kri...@buffnet.net (Kurt Rieder) writes:
Kurt> The mother factory was/is in Jena... not far from
Kurt> Dresden. But before WWII Zeiss was already a consortinm with
Kurt> works all over Germany. After the war they supplied lenses to
Kurt> manufactures in both sectors.
Well, Jena is 170 km (105 miles) from Dresden. Whether you call ist
"far" depends on your point of view. :^)
Kurt> I still find it difficult to understand that there is
Kurt> a connection between Zeiss and Prazi... did not someone
Kurt> identify the company... as unrelated to Zeiss ?
Well, Präzima has nothing to do with Zeiss. The confusion comes from
the fact, that the Präzima lathes for some reason have been marketed
in the UK through a company called CZ Instruments. CZ Instruments has
been part of the sales organization of the East German Carl Zeiss
Jena.
Hope we can close the Zeiss thread here ...
Stefan