Marine Bronze...???
Joe Way
recollection that the zinc in certain brass alloys is what makes them
unsuitable for marine use, as electrolysis removes it leaving lacy
brass behind.
But the threads I can find that mention the percentages in "marine"
bronze alloys all seem to include zinc...sometimes a _lot_.
So...for an application that will see occasional immersion in sea
water, with the likelihood of retaining some of that water on removal,
what sort of bronze-preferably available in tube form- would be
appropriate?
Thanks.
Joe
--
Heather & Joe Way
Sierra Specialty Automotive
Brake cylinders sleeved with brass
Delco alternator One-Wire conversions
http://www.brakecylinder.com
timleech
wrote:
>I've just been Googling r. c. m. in hopes of confirming my
>recollection that the zinc in certain brass alloys is what makes them
>unsuitable for marine use, as electrolysis removes it leaving lacy
>brass behind.
>
>But the threads I can find that mention the percentages in "marine"
>bronze alloys all seem to include zinc...sometimes a _lot_.
>
>So...for an application that will see occasional immersion in sea
>water, with the likelihood of retaining some of that water on removal,
>what sort of bronze-preferably available in tube form- would be
>appropriate?
>
>
I don't know the detailed compositions, but silicon bronze is usual
for marine fastenings (screws, nails etc) and manganese bronze for
propellors.
Ordinary brass will de-zincefy, even in a fresh water 'marine'
environment.
I have seen several (presumed) manganese bronze propellors which have
de-zincefied to the point that they have lost much of their strength,
and can't be welded.
Are you looking for a bearing bronze? I usually use leaded bearing
bronze for propellor shaft bearings (on stainless shafts), for ease of
machining and in the belief that it will work better in a
water-lubricated situation than an ordinary phophor bronze. It seems
to stand up to the rigours of (mainly fresh water) canal boat use
pretty well.
Cheers
Tim
Tim Leech
Dutton Dry-Dock
timl...@dutondok.u-net.com
Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs
Ed Huntress
is vulnerable to dezincification in salt water. Most bronzes for marine use
contain less than that. Yellow brass is around 40% zinc.
Ed Huntress
"Joe Way" <j...@brakecylinder.com> wrote in message
news:ieaiotoeg6qog1rp6...@4ax.com...
Peter Wiley
Has someone changed metal definitions while I wasn't watching?
Copper/zinc makes BRASS.
Copper/tin makes BRONZE.
Lots of various alloys, but that was my understanding of the basic
differences - and it's then obvious why bronze resists corrosion so
well.
Peter Wiley
James P. Riser
3-7 1/2% tin and .02-.4% phosphorus (more tin=harder alloy)
Also listed are aluminum and silicon bronzes.
These two are more resistant to corrosion - the silicon bronze being the
most resistant.
Jim
Ed Huntress
"brass," and there never was. They'll accept "bronze," but they prefer
"copper alloy".
In fact, if you look through an extensive listing of copper alloys and their
common names, such as the _Metals Handbook_ series published by the ASM,
you'll see the same material often has two or three common names, one of
which will be some kind of "brass," and another some other name of "bronze".
They're doing this strictly to confuse you, Peter. It's a plot. <g>
Seriously, the high-zinc copper alloys have traditionally been called
"brass," for the most part, and everything else has been "bronze". But not
when you get down to brass tacks. <!> When you look at individual names of
the materials (leaded beryllium copper, for example, which also is called
leaded beryllium bronze, and a half-dozen other things), the pattern breaks
down.
If it helps you to keep an even keel, tin-copper alloys with low zinc
content are usually called "bronze".
Ed Huntress
"Peter Wiley" <peter_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b8c8f82....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
Ed Huntress
>
> Copper/tin makes BRONZE.
Oh, one more thing of interest here: Of the 50+ copper alloys listed in
_Metals Handbook_, over half of which have common names including "bronze,"
only a few have any significant amount of tin, and many have no tin at all.
That's just to confuse you further...
Ed Huntress
CZ
> In general, and there are exceptions, bronze containing over 17% or 18% zinc
> is vulnerable to dezincification in salt water. Most bronzes for marine use
> contain less than that. Yellow brass is around 40% zinc.
>
> Ed Huntress
>
> "Joe Way" <j...@brakecylinder.com> wrote in message
> news:ieaiotoeg6qog1rp6...@4ax.com...
> > I've just been Googling r. c. m. in hopes of confirming my
> > recollection that the zinc in certain brass alloys is what makes them
> > unsuitable for marine use, as electrolysis removes it leaving lacy
> > brass behind.
> >
> > But the threads I can find that mention the percentages in "marine"
> > bronze alloys all seem to include zinc...sometimes a _lot_.
> >
> > So...for an application that will see occasional immersion in sea
> > water, with the likelihood of retaining some of that water on removal
Check me if I'm wrong, but brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, and
bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, which may explain its marine
useage. 8) CZ
Ed Huntress
news:83821759.01082...@posting.google.com...
> Check me if I'm wrong, but brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, and
> bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, which may explain its marine
> useage. 8) CZ
There are very few "bronze" alloys that contain much tin. Most of the alloys
called "brass" contain more than 18% zinc, but the names "brass" and
"bronze" have been so butchered by common usage that the names mean very
little any more.
Two centuries ago, bronze was a copper-tin alloy. Today, "bronze" contains
copper, and just about anything else you can think of, but rarely much tin.
Here are a few examples:
Common name: Commercial Bronze. Composition: 90% Cu; 10% Zn.
Common name: Red Brass. Composition: 85% Cu; 15% Zn.
Common name: Cartridge Brass. Composition: 70% Cu; 30% Zn.
Common name: Penny Bronze. Composition: 95% Cu; 1% Sn; 4% Zn.
Common name: Tin Brass: 90% Cu; 5% Sn; 5% Zn.
All of the above have small allowances for lead and iron; usually less than
0.5% of each.
Aluminum bronze contains no tin. Silicon bronze contains no tin, but it does
contain up to 1.5% zinc. Manganese bronze and most phosphor bronzes contain
more zinc than tin, when they contain any tin at all. Common Tin Bronze ("G"
Bronze) contains around 8% tin and 5% zinc.
So the names help very little. They're mostly old traditions, and have
nothing much to do with the alloy's composition. Most surprising, to those
who haven't studied these alloys, is that very few of them contain more tin
than zinc, and many of the common "bronzes" and "brasses" are 90% or more
copper.
Ed Huntress
Eastburn
I have a Bronze - Marine Bronze - more Navy Bronze [;-)]
It is a Port Hole specifically. I want to mount it on
a large plank of wood and must pick screws out.
In the beginning - (when I got it) - it was mounted with Iron bolts.
One is still rusted in.
I want to use Bronze - Si-Bronze but I'm concerned with reactions.
And there are 14 - yes 14 each to place around the outside.
Odd not 12 - understand not 13. Anyone know why 14 ?
So two real questions :
1. Is there a preferred alloy for screws through Marine Bronze ?
2. Is there a Blue Salt out there that knows the tale of 14 ?
(I bet there is something.) I see only one as a nut in Math :
360/14 = 25.714285...714285.... Maybe because it is 'beautiful'.
Oh - screws are counter sink - 10 mm shank, 15 mm across the flats.
3. Why were the screws iron before - so they would not melt together ?
(or was it just cost / resource saving).....
Martin
--
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home on our computer old...@pacbell.net
Mark Kinsler
>water, with the likelihood of retaining some of that water on removal,
>what sort of bronze-preferably available in tube form- would be
>appropriate?
>Brake cylinders sleeved with brass
>Delco alternator One-Wire conversions
>http://www.brakecylinder.com
Undersea brake cylinders? (I hafta send my Econoline brake cylinders
off to you already. The auld brake cylinder hone does its best, but
it's looking like the Craters of the Moon in there.)
I have a brass question, however: is the spangling that you see on an
old brass doorknob (presumably etched by years of salty sweat) due to
the zinc in the brass? Galvanized steel has spangling that looks the
same, but the crystals are larger.
M Kinsler
512 E Mulberry St Lancaster Ohio USA 740.687.6368
http://www.frognet.net/~kinsler
Ed Huntress
a bad reaction with other bronzes. They're fairly strong and fairly
corrosion resistant themselves. They contain no zinc or very little zinc.
They don't dezincify, the copper just corrodes.
Silicon bronze is one of the more common "marine bronzes" -- maybe the most
common, today. It will turn a bit red with exposure to salt water, but so
will most other bronzes.
Ed Huntress
"Eastburn" <old...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B89C9B6...@pacbell.net...
Joe Way
wrote:
>>So...for an application that will see occasional immersion in sea
>>water, with the likelihood of retaining some of that water on removal,
>>what sort of bronze-preferably available in tube form- would be
>>appropriate?
>
>
>Undersea brake cylinders?
>
Sort of--boat trailers. I'm concerned that the C330 brass I'm using,
which is 33.5% zinc according to the supplier, won't hold up well in
boat trailer cylinders that get into salt water, and I've just
acquired a customer who wants to do a _lot_ of them.
>
>(I hafta send my Econoline brake cylinders
>off to you already. The auld brake cylinder hone does its best, but
>it's looking like the Craters of the Moon in there.)
>
A friend was pricing Falcon wheel cylinders the other day...I can't
save you money quite yet but give it a few months and I probably can.
'Course the way you're hanging on to the Beloved Econoline I can save
you the cost of the next set you'd need if you buy new ones. :-)
Did you ever talk to Eugene at Blue Oval Engineering about a '67 Econ
dual master cylinder? At one time I had him talked into selling you
one outright.
>
>I have a brass question, however: is the spangling that you see on an
>old brass doorknob (presumably etched by years of salty sweat) due to
>the zinc in the brass? Galvanized steel has spangling that looks the
>same, but the crystals are larger.
>
>M Kinsler
>
Could be...maybe Ed knows for sure.
Joe
--
Heather & Joe Way
Sierra Specialty Automotive
Joe Way
<hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>In general, and there are exceptions, bronze containing over 17% or 18% zinc
>is vulnerable to dezincification in salt water. Most bronzes for marine use
>contain less than that. Yellow brass is around 40% zinc.
>
>Ed Huntress
>
===========
Ed and other respondents...
Thanks very much for the information. Now I know what to ask for when
I call my supplier, and what questions to ask. Looks like silicon
bronze is first choice, followed closely by whatever the supplier can
get <g> that doesn't have too much zinc.
Again, Thanks Much.
Ed Huntress
> >
> >Undersea brake cylinders?
> >
> Sort of--boat trailers. I'm concerned that the C330 brass I'm using,
> which is 33.5% zinc according to the supplier, won't hold up well in
> boat trailer cylinders that get into salt water, and I've just
> acquired a customer who wants to do a _lot_ of them.
C330 (now called C33000) is yellow brass -- bad news for sea water exposure,
especially if it has to have some mechanical strength.
If you want some specific recommendations from the handbooks, tell us what
these cylinders do. The issues are the temperature and velocity of the salt
water they're exposed to, what levels of strength are required, how you
intend to fabricate them (machining, welding, etc.) and how big a factor
cost is in the equation. Whether they'll be subject to biofouling, standing
for long periods of time in stagnant or slow-moving salt water, is another
question.
> >I have a brass question, however: is the spangling that you see on an
> >old brass doorknob (presumably etched by years of salty sweat) due to
> >the zinc in the brass? Galvanized steel has spangling that looks the
> >same, but the crystals are larger.
> >
> >M Kinsler
> >
> Could be...maybe Ed knows for sure.
Nope. I've seen the spangling that Mark is referring to, but I have no idea
what causes it.
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
bronze alloy that contains more than a few percent zinc, up to around 20% or
even more, you can greatly improve its resistance to dezincification in salt
water by adding a small amount of tin, phosphorous, or manganese. Thus, you
have alloys like "admiralty brass," which is intended for exposure to salt
water, but which contains a fair amount of zinc. It also contains enough tin
and some other things that increase its corrosion resistance.
You still don't want much zinc, but this may save you some confusion if
someone gets fancy in arguing about it. Silicon bronze solves the arguments
and confusion. Manganese bronze may have some zinc, but it's still very
resistant to dezincification and other kinds of corrosion.
Ed Huntress
"Joe Way" <j...@brakecylinder.com> wrote in message
news:v0kjot0po37o81mpj...@4ax.com...
Peter Wiley
Explains why "bronze" corrodes out in salt water these days, then. One
needs to specify a copper/tin alloy. This doesn't seem to corrode in
anything less than geological time.
I must dig up a copy of the 'Metals Handbook' as I'm about to change
jobs again, and in my next one some of these changes will be of less
than academic interest.
Peter Wiley
Tim
Oh, so it has 1% tin in it too? Thought it was just 5% Zn, balance Cu...
And BTW, since I have a bunch of $ of pennies saved up (not zinc, but rather
coppery, this time), I'm thinking of trying to melt them some time... Anyone
have any suggestions as to what I could do with that, my zinc, and if applicable,
my aluminum? (Not to mention all that copper wire I probably have around
somewhere... :)
Tim
--
"This is indeed a disturbing universe."
- Maggie Simpson
Joe Way
<hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>"Joe Way" <j...@brakecylinder.com> wrote in message
>news:k8jjoto050q6gc8g2...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >Undersea brake cylinders?
>> >
>> Sort of--boat trailers. I'm concerned that the C330 brass I'm using,
>> which is 33.5% zinc according to the supplier, won't hold up well in
>> boat trailer cylinders that get into salt water, and I've just
>> acquired a customer who wants to do a _lot_ of them.
>
>C330 (now called C33000) is yellow brass -- bad news for sea water exposure,
>especially if it has to have some mechanical strength.
>
>If you want some specific recommendations from the handbooks, tell us what
>these cylinders do. The issues are the temperature and velocity of the salt
>water they're exposed to, what levels of strength are required, how you
>intend to fabricate them (machining, welding, etc.) and how big a factor
>cost is in the equation. Whether they'll be subject to biofouling, standing
>for long periods of time in stagnant or slow-moving salt water, is another
>question.
>
>Ed Huntress
>
=========
They're just simple wheel cylinders, Ed. I put brass sleeves in brake
cylinders, mostly for people with old cars. The C330(00) alloy tube
has a long and impressive history of effectiveness in this
application--one of my competitors has been using it or its
predecessor alloys for about 40 years. I've been using it for years
with completely satisfactory results.
But boat trailers, especially those that are dipped in the sea, pose a
much more severe problem in terms of corrosion. Let's see....
Temperature will vary according to location and season. Let's say 40F
to 90F. Velocity in the cylinder is nil; the water will be stationary
after it infiltrates the dust boots. Strength is provided mostly by
the casting the sleeve is installed in. Sleeves are machined to size
by turning, boring, reaming and honing as necessary, and
sealed/secured in place with an industrial adhesive. Cost? Always a
factor, but probably not a show-stopper. I expect that the added cost
of bronze tube over brass will add 25-30% to my normal charge of $50
per cylinder, but at this point that's just a guess. Biofouling...I
imagine that the water that infiltrates the cylinders in a few minutes
of submersion will drain out in a few more minutes, at least to the
point where there's not enough left to stagnate.
Does it still sound like a job for silicon bronze?
Thanks.
Eric R Snow
wrote:
>I've just been Googling r. c. m. in hopes of confirming my
Joe,
Try SAE 660 bearing bronze. This stuff comes in tubes. Composition is:
copper 83%, tin 7%, lead 7%, zinc 3%. Alaskan Copper and Brass sells
the stuff out of Seattle and Portland(OR). Their 800 # is
800-552-7661. I buy a lot from them. Aluminum, brass, bronze, copper,
and SS.
Eric R Snow
Radagast
> Aluminum bronze contains no tin. Silicon bronze contains no tin, but it does
> contain up to 1.5% zinc. Manganese bronze and most phosphor bronzes contain
> more zinc than tin, when they contain any tin at all. Common Tin Bronze ("G"
> Bronze) contains around 8% tin and 5% zinc.
>
>
> Ed Huntress
Ed,
That was some great info. How is the phosphorus, in phosphor bronzes
get into the alloy? It seems like using elemental phosphorus wouldn't
be too healthy, and doesn't (gut feeling) seem like it would work.
Regards,
Glenn
Ed Huntress
being resistance to dezincification, with wear properties comparable to
yellow brass, there don't appear to be many that *won't* work.
I don't know about specific bearing properties or how readily available
these alloys are in tube form. With that in mind, both low-silicon and
high-silicon bronzes are used for marine hardware and for bearings. It's not
easy to machine: 30% of the machinability of free-machining yellow brass.
Bearing bronze, which someone else mentioned, is suitable. So are manganese
bronze and phosphor bronze. Aluminum bronze is good, but it's difficult to
machine.
If you're buying from someone who supplies the marine trade, you may find
"inhibited" versions of brass. These are similar to what you're using but
generally have 1% tin and/or lesser amounts of phosphorous. These will
behave much like what you're using now but they're not subject to
dezincification.
In general again, lead has no effect on corrosion resistance, so don't worry
if what you find is leaded brass or bearing bronze. They should be OK, and
somewhat easier to machine.
The general rule is that brass with more than 18% zinc resists pitting;
bronze with less than 15% zinc, or with greater amounts of zinc and some tin
or phosphorous, resist dezincification. It's a bit of a tradeoff but it
shouldn't be a big deal in your application.
If you run into some trade name or if you want clarification, ask again. I
could get into long lists of alloys that are deemed suitable but I think
you'll find far more that are than aren't. The key things are to make sure
any high-zinc material also has some tin in it, or is labeled "inhibited".
Inhibited yellow brass, inhibited admiralty brass, and inhibited Muntz metal
should be OK. Red brass probably will give you pitting problems. Other than
that, it should be no problem if you avoid uninhibited brasses with high
zinc content.
Ed Huntress
"Joe Way" <j...@brakecylinder.com> wrote in message
news:b3lkot4u817e23ge2...@4ax.com...
Steve Lusardi
If this situation was mine to resolve, I would use Silicon Aluminum Bronze
(SAB) as a first choice. I know that it is available in bar stock, but
probably not tube.
Steve
Joe Way wrote in message ...
Ed Huntress
news:ca6f59f3.01082...@posting.google.com...
>How is the phosphorus, in phosphor bronzes
> get into the alloy? It seems like using elemental phosphorus wouldn't
> be too healthy, and doesn't (gut feeling) seem like it would work.
'Don't know, Glenn. My handbooks assume that's someone else's department...
Ed Huntress
fred veenschoten
Fred
"Joe Way" <j...@brakecylinder.com> wrote in message
news:v0kjot0po37o81mpj...@4ax.com...
Tim
> > get into the alloy? It seems like using elemental phosphorus wouldn't
> > be too healthy, and doesn't (gut feeling) seem like it would work.
>
> 'Don't know, Glenn. My handbooks assume that's someone else's department...
It is a good point, because phosphorus starts burning around 110°F (white at
least (?)), and boils around 800°F (IIRC), so yes, how it gets into 2000°F
metal is a bit of a good question... Same with zinc, but to a lesser extent -
still melts after boiling point...
Ed Huntress
news:tol2ipk...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> It is a good point, because phosphorus starts burning around 110°F (white
at
> least (?)), and boils around 800°F (IIRC), so yes, how it gets into 2000°F
> metal is a bit of a good question... Same with zinc, but to a lesser
extent -
> still melts after boiling point...
>
Well, there's another subject for your independent study. Remember that many
alloys behave differently from any of their constituents, and that there are
several ways that alloying elements can get bound to each other when they're
mixed and alloyed. Metal alloys don't describe chemical relationships,
necessarily. The relationships even can be mostly mechanical, with some
diffusion bonding between them, as with certain powder-metal alloys.
A basic metallurgy text is a good place to start. If you're on top of
calculus, then an academic college text is best. Otherwise, a text designed
for technical schools, such as the two-year engineering technology programs
at many community colleges, will be easier for you to manage at this point.
Ed Huntress
Tony
--
Tony
Visit TonysToolroom for info on Precision Scraping.
***Now with Powerscraping***
Don't skive that belt before you visit my flatbelt page!
Find out about OILHEAT Technology at my oilburner page.
"Tim" <tmor...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:tojo8o1...@corp.supernews.com...
Eastburn
I'm sure a salt of Phosphorus is the additive element.
Martin
--
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home on our computer old...@pacbell.net
Eastburn
I figure on using bolts. It is going into a large slab of Redwood Burl
but I can't trust the weight - even 14 screws - on the heavy mount,
glass,
and wings.
Wings are the captive nuts that are vase shaped - bottom of the vase
is wider and threaded - the bolt continues up though and into the vase
(open)
and the top is naturally closed. A nice handle and built on washer.
Tim
Heh. Hey, I know the jist of an EDM thingy (DC power supply with a resistor
to keep it from shorting badly, and discharge capacitor), but how much capacitence
is good? I've been able to make a mess of the oil/water, but never any visible
amounts of damage...
Ed Huntress
redwood. Whatever it is, it should look good.
Ed Huntress
"Eastburn" <old...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B8B26D3...@pacbell.net...
Neil Ellwood
<tmor...@charter.net> wrote:
>> >How is the phosphorus, in phosphor bronzes
>> > get into the alloy? It seems like using elemental phosphorus
>> > wouldn't be too healthy, and doesn't (gut feeling) seem like it
>> > would work.
>>
>> 'Don't know, Glenn. My handbooks assume that's someone else's
>> department...
>
> It is a good point, because phosphorus starts burning around 110°F
> (white at least (?)), and boils around 800°F (IIRC), so yes, how it
> gets into 2000°F metal is a bit of a good question... Same with
> zinc, but to a lesser extent - still melts after boiling point...
Just heat the phosphorus without the presence of oxygen
and............ bobs your uncle.
--
Neil
Remove gone to reply by email
Eastburn
tree?)
He drove the Great White Fleet around the Pacific and stopped off
in Manilla Bay and oops just a bit bigger country.
Well oiled machine from what I heard.
The Redwood slab was one of those coffee tables you hear / see.
After 12+ years, my wife decided her shins needed saving. It was
perfect
height and just in front of the couch... It would reach out and get ya!
Anyway - it looks somewhat like Kwajalein Atoll - where my family -
three
generations and two branches - spent over 20 years on 'the rock'. My
brother,
works for Lincoln Labs - R&D for MIT... and will be returning this year.
It is in that Atoll that I recovered the Porthole and a ship lamp.
Both will go onto the slab, and if the lamp functions in time, it would
be nice.
Radagast
Neil, this solves the P oxidation problem, but doesn't address
the fact that P volitises before Brass/Bronze melts. I'd really
be amazed if it's used elementally, not as a salt. It does pique
the curiosity of the ex-chemist in me.
Ed, thanks for the advice, calculus and DiffEq aren't a problem,
I can check out Ga. Tech. Libr, they will have some good sources
- guess I should have thought initially.
Glenn
NA
add several copper jacketed phosphor pellets to my melt just prior top
pouring bronze. It decreases the vicosity considerably. The phosphor keeps
in solution for a while but is clearly vaporizing. If you overheat any of
these alloys for too long you can burn them which in part seems to be the
vaporization of the zinc. I also thought that zinc and tin were the
difference between the two alloys, but copper alloys are selected based on
properties and sometimes color, I noticed early on that the percentages of
tin were quite low in bronze.
Alan Black
"Eric R Snow" <et...@whidbey.com> wrote in message
news:3b8a5d39...@news.whidbey.com...