Ali GMAW - defect rates - spray, pulse

[Richard Smith]

Posted in s.ej.w. primarily, due to content; but not much activity
there, so putting plea here...

Hi
Plea for real experience information.
Thicker Ali at above about 130A.
Probably wire-feed-speed at or above 10m/min (394ipm)
Thinking of marine-grade 5000-series Al-Mg, but experience of other
grades would apply regarding this question.
For welds, compare / contrast:

* spray-transfer/smooth-run
^
v
* Pulse-mode/stepped-progression

Or any comparison of spray/Pulse modes and of smooth/stepping
progression.

Flaw and defect rates, please.
This would be by radiography (x-ray) and mechanical test (strength
alone will reveal everything important about Ali?).

Here in UK we have an orthodoxy about which process / approach must be
used.
Defect rates are / can-be high.
Which surely simply cannot be the case universally???
Unfortunately I have not been able to test the welds I trust the most.

Thanks in advance,
Rich Smith

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lypmgnt...@void.com...

Posted in s.ej.w. primarily, due to content; but not much activity
there, so putting plea here...

Hi

Plea for real experience information....

--------------

I'm better at Googling than welding. Here's some hands-on experience on
material prep that I didn't hear in welding class:
http://kgmarinefabrication.com/blogs/dos-and-donts-of-aluminum-boat-welding/

[Richard Smith]

They sound good and talk sense. All they mention are pre-requisites.
However - they talk of GTAW (TIG), not GMAW.
GMAW you have to use for boat *building*. Much more productive when
you have long weld runs.
GTAW you'd use for making an Ali ladder - or doing a patch repair -
because GMAW becomes unworkable for short runs and GTAW has no such
limitation. You can adapt a lot more with GTAW.
GMAW you pull trigger and go - and you are commited to a run at that
condition.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly1qt33...@void.com...

---------------

I took night school classes in acetylene, stick, GTAW and GMAW welding and
became able to pass a bend-double test with 7018, fabricate a log splitter,
a sawmill and a hydraulic bucket loader for my tractor and patch rust holes
in my vehicles. I didn't practice out-of-position other than vertical
because I make fairly small things I can lift and turn, and I didn't do well
with TIG or MIG on aluminum. I soldered electronics for a living which is
also about making molten metal flow where you want it to, and not where you
don't.

The beam I was asking about became a hand-portable (in pieces) overhead
gantry hoist 16' long with a tested 1 ton capacity. It's about the biggest
thing I expect to weld on.

Tell me more about short runs with GMAW. Auto body repair consists of tack
welding a sheet steel patch loosely fitted into the cleaned-up rust hole,
then removing the clamps or magnets and filling between the tacks in burst
short enough to minimize heat distortion and avoid melting through. After
grinding the weld flush there will be (for me) voids and pinholes to fill in
with weld metal. I've practiced filling in a coin-sized hole in sheet metal.

[Bob La Londe]

Real world Experience. Almost none.

I said "almost". I did some 3/8 (9.5mm) 5052 with full bevels, and
massive preheat with a torch using a Miller 212 with a spool gun. It
looked terrible. I ground out and re-welded portions of it several
times. I made it "look" ok with a flap disc. It didn't break. I don't
recall the settings. I used what it said on the flip card on my welder,
and found a little more wire than that worked better.

I've tried welding 1/2"(12.7mm) 6061 a couple times and it was pretty
much terrible no matter what I did.

I had heard you could go with an Argon Helium mix and get better
results, but I have never done it.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

[Richard Smith]

6000-series (extrudable alloys) kicks the arc off itself.
Welding 6000-series to 5000-series is worse...
Familiar experience (?).

I've only used pure Ar (argon).
It works fine.

I've had Ali-GMAW which look just like a steel T-fillet weld but
matt-silver Ali appearance.

However - my first couple of days were "unpromising". It was only the
raging covid19 pandemic and "lockdowns" which had me persevered-with
until I got the other side of "the learning curve" hump.

[Bob La Londe]

I found 1/4" (6.35mm) would allow me to wallow around like I was welding
steel. 1/8" to 1/4" seemed to be the butter zone for 5052 for me. I
was successful with 5052 as thin as .080" (the boat hasn't sunk yet) and
I managed to stick .043" once, but thinner aluminum isn't as easy as
thinner steel. I have to go crazy fast and still only run short beads.
I never tried "stacking tacks" with thin aluminum like I have with thin
steel.

Didn't we have this same conversation last year?


The +He is recommended for thicker aluminum or so I have heard. I've
got a lot of scrap 1/2" 6061 flat bar from bad cuts and bad decisions
machining. It would be nice if I could weld it together and make stuff
out of it. It wouldn't bother me in the least if one side still showed
the failed mold cavities that turned it into scrap. In fact the tool
racks on my CNC mills are made from such scrap.

[Richard Smith]

Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99> writes:


> ...

> Didn't we have this same conversation last year?

> ...

Yes this is a repeated plea.
Maybe made earlier this year.

With

* the covid19 pandemic recent and a counter-useful "lockdown" (it
would have had nett negative consequences) only just averted - the
Government passed in Parliament another set of restrictions but
desisted in the face of all reality

* the Ukraine war had kicked-off and negative economic consequences
to Europe figuratively flashed in bright neon signage

* I had to walk out of an Ali welding job, talking over the foreman
trying to describe the next job he wanted me to do, saying "I just
want out, immediately" (I'd just completed a safety-critical job
against all the mounting odds, protecting those I worked with, as a
"last push")

I was exhausted and confused.

I've had other things to do since - taken care of.
But never resolved these questions.
They lingered in the background. Perturbing me what I contemplated
returning to weldign work.

That was the space I was in when I wrote that plea only a couple of
days ago.

But that as a process served a purpose. Because...

Today I woke up bright with a fresh head on, pumped wieghts in the
garden, then read the Lincoln advice on Ali-GMAW.


That's their well-known
c8100.pdf
"Aluminum GMAW
Gas Metal Arc Welding for Aluminum Guide"

Coming back after so much experience, I read and understand so vastly
much more of what is there.
I *think I see* many answers to my questions.
I see answers in what I have already read, but didn't have the
practical experience to assimilate then when going into the Ali
welding jobs.

I still would like to hear from those with real-world streetwise
experience - who have done Ali-GMAW welding including testing like
radiography, mechanicals (tensiles), bends, carefully considered and
controlled "sledgehammer" break tests on test welds, etc.

Best wishes,
Rich Smith

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lymtboh...@void.com...

I still would like to hear from those with real-world streetwise
experience - who have done Ali-GMAW welding including testing like
radiography, mechanicals (tensiles), bends, carefully considered and
controlled "sledgehammer" break tests on test welds, etc.

Best wishes,
Rich Smith

---------------------------

A former neighbor is a certified pipe welder who specializes in alumin(i)um
GMAW. If I see him I'll ask if he is willing to chat about it.

[Richard Smith]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> writes:

>
> A former neighbor is a certified pipe welder who specializes in
> alumin(i)um GMAW. If I see him I'll ask if he is willing to chat about
> it.

That would be so appreciated.

[Bob La Londe]

On 8/26/2022 1:10 AM, Richard Smith wrote:

P.S. I have two boat projects (full builds, not repairs) in the works.
I have the metal on hand for one. Do you want to hear about all the
dropout holes I blow in the sheet? LOL.

I may be pushing my limit. The first boat is designed to be a light
shallow runner with only .080 hull and bulkheads. I've mig welded .080
before, but it was tedious at best with lots of double/repair work. I
imagine it will be good practice for the second one and the one I really
want to do. A bit larger (longer wider) faster shallow water runner
with a .125 hull.

[Richard Smith]

Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99> writes:

> On 8/26/2022 1:10 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Posted in s.ej.w. primarily, due to content; but not much activity
>> there, so putting plea here...
>>
>> Hi

>> Plea for ...
>> ...

>>
>> Rich Smith
>
>
> P.S. I have two boat projects (full builds, not repairs) in the
> works. I have the metal on hand for one. Do you want to hear about
> all the dropout holes I blow in the sheet? LOL.
>
> I may be pushing my limit. The first boat is designed to be a light
> shallow runner with only .080 hull and bulkheads. I've mig welded
> .080 before, but it was tedious at best with lots of double/repair
> work. I imagine it will be good practice for the second one and the
> one I really want to do. A bit larger (longer wider) faster shallow
> water runner with a .125 hull.

Completely different domain from where my cry of continuing pain comes
from.

Below 4mm - certainly 3mm - the benefit of Pulse GMAW is unmissable.

* >= 10m/min - spray at about 24-ish volts
* < 10m/min - pulse

(/ 10e3 25.4) ;; 393.7007874015748

BTW I'd say always think wire-feed-speed with GMAW, because that is
interchangeable and transportable across machines and workplaces.
(if you set an all-singing all-dancing machine to "8mm Al", what that
means will never be known to you and if you "calibrate" how you
visualise your welds according to that, you will have nothing when you
move to another job).
What is the same with my "cry of pain" message - the Laws of the
Universe make wire-feed-speed with GMAW the central measure which is
impossible to circumvent. What I mean is, "snake-oil salespersons"
you can have this, that AND the other, but Laws like heat
conductivity, latent heat of fusion, the electrical ionisation of
argon, etc., mean this is 100% drivel.

Anyway, digressions...

At these lower thicknesses where the wire-feed-speed falls below
10m/min (394ipm), do switch to "Pulse", which will work brilliantly,
and I haven't met a Pulse-GMAW machine yet where the "Synergic"
single-knob control doesn't give you an ideal condition (no "my
'magic' settings").

Now, that is in an industrial setting with top-brand welding machines
costing thousands of US$ equivalent.
This would be talking about a workshop environment where everything is
3-phase power.

So what I am saying might come from a different world. But putting
3mm (1/8") end-plates capping extruded 4mm and 5mm wall rectangular
hollow sections with outside-corner welds (very low heat demand) -
easy money for me switching to Pulse-GMAW.

Thanks for all help, and I just want to be helpful in return.

Best wishes,
Rich Smith

[Bob La Londe]

If only I had a pulse MIG. The Miller 212 is straight DC manual set.
My best results came from lots of tacs, and then random stitch and fill
with plenty of cool down. Since it welds best with brushing and
chemical cleaning just minutes before welding cool down is part of the
process. I did pickup an AC DC pulse TIG a while back, but my abilities
with it are much worse as of yet.

I don't know if I told the story about how this machine sucked for years
welding steel with gas, but now its pretty decent. I actually ran this
machine with flux core for steel those years because it sucked so bad
with gas.

[Richard Smith]

Can't fault you for perseverance! :-)
Best wishes,

[Bob La Londe]

On 8/31/2022 12:16 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Can't fault you for perseverance! :-)
> Best wishes,

I am not a welder. I am sure that's clear. The thing is everybody told
me how easy MIG was. I had a little flux core Horrible Fright wire
feeder, but it was pretty miserable. Even after cutting a giant hole in
the case and adding a cooling fan it still only made about 1-1/2 to 2
inches (35-51mm) of weld before going unstable. I finally broke down
and bought the Miller 212 some years back. All the wannabe pros at the
time were pooping on auto set machines so I went for a manual set
machine. It still was not cheap. After a huge learning curve I was
able to hot glue aluminum together with the spool gun, but it absolutely
sucked running GMAW with the regular stinger. I could swap the leads
(have to open the cover to do that) and run unshielded flux core all day
long (and its easier for out of position welding), but it absolutely
SUCKED in the most unpleasant way trying to MIG weld with gas. Finally
one day I decided I was going to do what I was best at.
Troubleshooting. (licensed communication contractor)

I walked into the back shop and told myself I was going to figure out
what was wrong with the stupid machine or destroy it trying. I powered
it up, put my hand in front of the stinger and pulled the trigger. I
felt gas. I saw the wire feeding. I pulled the hood, put my hand next
to the electrode, and pulled the trigger again. I saw the wire feeding,
but I didn't feel any gas. I ran my hand all around the nozzle and felt
gas coming out of the tip, but nowhere else. That didn't make any sense
to me. If that's where the gas comes from what is the point of the
nozzle. I didn't really know what I was looking at or what the parts
were called, but I knew something didn't look right. After some image
searching online I found a picture of the parts for other welding
stingers. One part caught my attention. It was called a gas diffuser.
The thing is all the ones I saw on-line had holes in them... I took
pictures of the pieces, and posted them on the Miller Welds Forums
asking, "What's Wrong With This Picture?" A few people got close, but
nobody got it. Then I didn't feel quite so bad. When I spilled the
beans somebody with Miller sent me a private message asking for my
address so they could send me a parts kit.

A few people tried to claim it was a used machine or a dealer restocked
machine or make some other excuse. Nope. It was purchased brand new
from Indiana Oxygen and drop shipped to me directly from Miller. Dual
solenoid, dual bottle rack, dual stinger setup for GMAW steel or
aluminum. Just swap singers.

I was really pleased after all those years I could finally start to
learn to MIG weld. I was also really frustrated, because I allowed self
doubt about my own abilities to over ride common sense. I thought all
that time there was something wrong with me when there was actually
something wrong with the machine. Something just snapped inside and
told me, "IT'S NOT YOU BOB!"

I remember trying to get help, and everybody seemed to have the same
attitude, "MIG welding is so easy even lower primates can do it. Just
get out there and practice." I'm not going to turn a tree shrew loose
in my shop with a MIG welder, but horizontal hot gluing steel together
isn't to bad now. I do get frustrated when I try to vertical or
overhead and forget its not flux core, but it finally works the way it
is supposed to.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:teoq6m$1qh7$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

On 8/31/2022 12:16 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Can't fault you for perseverance! :-)
> Best wishes,

I am not a welder. I am sure that's clear. The thing is everybody told

me how easy MIG was. ...

-----------------

https://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc.com/blog/push-or-pull-which-is-right/

I just couldn't get thin sheet steel to weld until I tried pushing instead
of pulling, then a nice thin flat puddle spread out neatly across the joint
without burning through.

I never did learn MIG on aluminum, but I could manage with TIG on the little
welding I needed for industrial robots. Welding the waterproof housing was a
big enough job to contract out.

[Richard Smith]

Bob - you describe what sounds like the pummeling my mind is having.
A point I saw myself and someone said the next day - if Ali-GMAW is
such a problem here; don't do it. There's other welding and other
jobs...

[Bob La Londe]

I seem to recall earlier in this thread you said it was "thick"
aluminum. As I made clear I am no expert, but aluminum is a massive
heat sink that melts and drops out at lower temperatures than steel
welders are used to, and there is no big color change to warn you as to
the temperature of the metal. Thin metal falls out almost without
warning, and thick metal steals your heat and spreads it across the
entire work piece to dissipate with little affect. I think this means
the skills are harder to learn and take more practice. No clear visual
indicators and harder to control heat input.

The thickest aluminum I have ever MIG/GMAW welded successfully (that is
arguable) was 3/8 inch (9.5mm). I did it by beveling (thinning the
edge), and preheating with a rosebud. I literally clamped the rosebud
to the structure so it was keeping the entire piece hot from the back
side while I was welding. I had the welder cranked up, pretty fast wire
speed, with 0.035 wire. It was crazy and dangerous to me. Cleaning was
mechanical only for obvious reasons. Straight argon at about 30CFH
inside a building with one door open to minimize air flow through the
building. That's all basic stuff you already know.

I have heard that the addition of Helium is the magic sauce that gives
you better penetration with thick aluminum.

https://welditmyself.com/how-to-mig-weld-aluminum/#:~:text=The%20typical%20gas%20you%20will%20need%20to%20weld,of%20Argon%20and%20Helium%20better%20for%20deeper%20penetration.

***
"The typical gas you will need to weld Aluminum is 100% Argon gas.

If you normally MIG weld mild steel using C25 gas, don’t worry you can
use the same gas hose and your regulator designed for Argon gas.

Welding thicker pieces of Aluminum 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch then you may
well find a mix of Argon and Helium better for deeper penetration."
***

I've seen numbers as low as 2% and as high as 25% helium stated. The
article linked above says 25%. In this article linked below they say
25% to as much a 75% helium, but they also specify 1/2 inch or thicker.

https://weldingpros.net/mig-welding-aluminum/#:~:text=However%2C%20MIG%20welding%20aluminum%20works%20best%20with%20a,be%20added%20for%20deeper%20penetration%20to%20be%20achieved.

***
"However, MIG welding aluminum works best with a 100% argon shielding gas.

It involves using the spray transfer process with a flow rate of 20 to
30 cubic feet per hour for proper gas coverage. But if you are planing
on welding thicker pieces of aluminum, 1/2” or more, 25% to 75% helium
should be added for deeper penetration to be achieved.

Basically, 100% argon is used to keep the weld clean and free from
oxidation. Helium is used to increase penetration ability when welding
aluminum."
***

I seem to recall you mentioning that other gases or gas mixes you do not
already have on hand are resisted by management. I can not help you
there.

Getting back to the basics. Welding thick metal takes a lot of power.
I must assume you have industrial machines much larger than the job shop
size machines I own, so that should not be an issue, however there is
another basic. See if you can talk to a company rep for the brand of
machines you are running. They may very well be able to help you with a
process for your applications. When I searched for conversations about
"MIG welding thick aluminum," that was one of the responses I saw on the
Miller Welds forums. Talk to the company rep.

https://forum.millerwelds.com/forum/welding-discussions/582655-mig-welding-thick-aluminum-1-2-and-over


***
"Although the forum is a great place to get tips and advice you should
also call your local Miller rep to come in and help you get things
running correctly."

"And you may want Helium in your Argon mix for heavier parts. But I
don't know until you try it. Post some pics too..."

More...
***

From what I have read you will need MORE POWER, THICKER FILLER, and
HELIUM for additional penetration for thick aluminum. That and more
practice than you needed to learn any of the steel welding processes you
already know.

I don't want to come off as the hack trying to teach the expert. I am a
hack, and in many types of welding you are most certainly the expert.
I'm just trying to help you get on track to learn it and become the
expert in one more. I mean really. When I need to do something like
that myself I want to be able to just ask you and have you tell me the
mystical secret recipe.

[Richard Smith]

Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99> writes:

> ...

>
> I seem to recall you mentioning that other gases or gas mixes you do
> not already have on hand are resisted by management. I can not help
> you there.
>

> ...

That was for >>>steel<<<.

That's right.
Yes, it is a continuing big problem here.
There is an orthodoxy for GMAW shielding gas compositions for steel
here which doesn't seem to exist anywhere else in the World.
It is technically "just wrong!".

On a plus side - I once saw a penetration bead through 8mm steel :-) !
That was an 8mm wall pipe onto a 25mm steel baseplate - presenting a
fillet weld - with the component being rotated. Much quicker to have
two welders, one on the torch and the other rotating the piece on a
little table.
Chasing "spray" at higher Amps, we were up at about 40V, as it never
really broke into "spray".
This is a fillet weld - you don't need penetration. You seek fusion
to the fillet corner. No benefit in weld penetration to the opposite
side of the World...

When you get one of these orthodoxies, the human dynamic is that you
never get to try anything else.
You put in a special order for a different gas: they specially deliver
three bottles of the same gas the orthodoxy demands for which you have
plenty of bottles, with an explanation that they had to "correct"
(sic.) your order. Etc.

Kind of - you are locked into madness, and there is no explaining madness.

I'm suspecting the same with my Ali question.
The conditions I find work well, not a problem to be found, are the
ones the Lincoln Foundation recommend, by the way, just to strongly
suggest I am standing on sound ground.

[Richard Smith]

Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99> writes:

> ... When I searched for

> conversations about "MIG welding thick aluminum," that was one of the
> responses I saw on the Miller Welds forums. Talk to the company rep.
>
> https://forum.millerwelds.com/forum/welding-discussions/582655-mig-welding-thick-aluminum-1-2-and-over
>

>...

As best I can comment - yes, excellent article and you are well-served by
reading it.

The Ar-He gas I can't comment, because if it's expensive there in the
North America it's very very expensive here.

His wire-feed-speed is exactly where I would expect it to be (he uses
560ipm). His voltage is reporting a bit higher than I would have
expected - but Volts is not a physically conserved quantity like Amps
(you can measure Amps anywhere in the circuit). With the accuracy of
voltmeters and maybe a bit more voltage drop between power-unit and
the tip of the torch, it's probably one and the same voltage (I'd be
looking at about 24V, if memory serves me rightly).

I am saddened that he is getting moments of instability, with welds in
that area which are not what he'd be most proud of.
Good cleaning - wire brushing just before welding - is always a first
step in such troubleshooting.
My max. Ali thickness yet is 1/2inch (12mm). He's going up to 1inch
(25mm). Beyond my experience - don't know if there's anything "up
there" I don't know about re. "spray" arc performance.

You'd have about 6kW of electrical power in the arc (250A*24V), so
power draw "at the wall" would be something like 12kW. So yes, these
are industrial powers.

I did go for a weld test at a stainless steel place where they used an
Ar-He-O2 mix, and it welded well, and I suspect the He did have some
good effect.

Back to Ali...

I wasn't wanting for anything with 100%Ar at 1/2" (12mm) thickness.
Above that - won't comment on what I haven't experienced.

[Richard Smith]

Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99> writes:

> ...

>
> The thickest aluminum I have ever MIG/GMAW welded successfully (that
> is arguable) was 3/8 inch (9.5mm). I did it by beveling (thinning the
> edge), and preheating with a rosebud. I literally clamped the rosebud
> to the structure so it was keeping the entire piece hot from the back
> side while I was welding. I had the welder cranked up, pretty fast
> wire speed, with 0.035 wire. It was crazy and dangerous to me.
> Cleaning was mechanical only for obvious reasons. Straight argon at
> about 30CFH inside a building with one door open to minimize air flow
> through the building. That's all basic stuff you already know.
>

> ...

I'm amazed you managed it at all with 0.035" wire.
That's like crossing the Sahara desert in a golf-buggy! :-)
I can only comment with respect for your tenacity...

[Richard Smith]

Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99> writes:

> ...
>
> I seem to recall earlier in this thread you said it was "thick"
> aluminum. As I made clear I am no expert, but aluminum is a massive

> heat sink ...

My impression is - that's exactly right, and you cannot circumvent the
physics of the situation. The Laws of the Universe.

I speculate - and only that, it's a speculation - that seeing the
power needed to weld Ali, managerial types look to "mystic modes" like
various Pulse machines, sold by decent distributors and manufacturers
who give good counsel but ultimately cannot not take a big wadge of
dosh from selling a fancy but pointless machine. All for the deluded
goal of circumventing the Laws of the Universe.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyzgfin...@void.com...

-----------------------

This is so like the mindset skewered in the Hitchhiker's Guide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
"Festinger argued that some people would inevitably resolve the dissonance
by blindly believing whatever they wanted to believe."

[Richard Smith]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> writes:
> ...

> This is so like the mindset skewered in the Hitchhiker's Guide.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
> "Festinger argued that some people would inevitably resolve the
> dissonance by blindly believing whatever they wanted to believe."

Yes, "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" so "got" this issue.

[Bob La Londe]

Its funny. I never wanted to learn to weld aluminum. I had a boat
project all setup, and I took it over to a local pro welding shop. He
told me, "No problem. Come pick it up in two weeks."

In two weeks he said, "Well I had a big important government job in. Its
going to be done in two weeks."

Now at 4 weeks... "Sorry its harvest season and all these big important
farmers are bringing in their stuff. Give me two weeks."

I gave him a month.

At 8 weeks I stopped by and he said, Something... something...
something... two weeks."

At a full 3 months it was finally done WRONG, and one thing that was
supposed to be welded wasn't. I pointed that out, and he welded that
wrong too, on the spot but atleast it would work until I ground it out a
couple years later and re-welded it myself. I noted he had also used
4043 on my 5052 plates. By that time I had learned that much. Sigh!

I had other aluminum boat projects I wanted to do, but I didn't want to
wait two weeks for three months every time I was ready for something to
be welded. I get it. My few hundred dollar weld job was always going
to be less important than any big farmer or government agency. That's
reality. I accept that. I started looking for a "better" welding
machine for my shop that I could also use for aluminum boat projects.
The dual gun Miller 212 seemed like a best compromise at the time. I
thought aluminum would be a bit of a struggle and learning curve, and
steel had to be easier than my little flux box. Little did I know I was
only half right. LOL.

Had that welding shop actually done my job in two weeks I would probably
still be taking any aluminum welding work I had to them today. Many
years later. Yes they are still in business.

[Richard Smith]

Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99> writes:

> On 9/1/2022 11:14 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99> writes:
>>
>>> ...
>>

>> ...

Hi Bob

That's some background story.
There's a lot of determination and persistence in that, for sure.

I've no experience of this, but anyway...
5052 is the only 5000-series which can be welded with 4043 filler
wire.

It's due to its lower Mg content, which leaves it still corrosion
resistant but not susceptible to Stress Corrosion Cracking - at a cost
of being crack-susceptible in welding.

That Stress Corrosion Cracking - for lovely (?) higher-Mg alloys like
5083, there is the misfortune that it is SCC susceptible from 65C.
Which can be unfortunate if your boat/ship is in a hot place with the
sun beating down on it and seawater / salt on deck...

So, here is good comment:

https://www.thefabricator.com/thewelder/article/aluminumwelding/aluminum-workshop-where-in-the-world-is-the-5052-filler-alloy-
"Aluminum Workshop: Where in the world is the 5052 filler alloy?"

"
...
So what filler should you use? Not surprisingly, 5356 is a very good
choice. More surprisingly, 4043 also is a very good choice. In all
other base/filler combinations, it is never recommended to weld a 5XXX
alloy with 4043. However, the magnesium content of 5052 is low enough
that 4043 works just fine.
"

Also see Lincoln
c8100.pdf
"Aluminum GMAW - Gas Metal Arc Welding for Aluminum Guide"


I'm inviting comment here, everyone...
A reason for using 5356 is it's so stiff you can use a "conventional"
GMAW machine with a "push" wirefeeder. Although Al fitments. Polymer
guides and liner; U-groove drive-rolls.
I've never used 4043...

Anyway, boats...

Quite some driven endeavour...?!

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tetr8e$12o2$1...@gioia.aioe.org...
....

Here's how to weld your boat with your milling machine:

https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/friction-stir-welding-machining-on-one-platform

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_stir_welding

No flux, filler or shielding gas required. It looks like an update to forge
welding, in which the metal softens to stickiness but doesn't melt. Who knew
you could join metal together by ripping it apart?

[Bob La Londe]

Its kind of funny. Some years back a friend went over to that same
shop. He asked me first, but I didn't want to have somebody else trust
their life to my welding. After quite some time he picked his boat up
and dropped it in my driveway. "Bob, I don't care if you aren't as
good. I just want to get it done before I die so I can go fishing." I
told him my limitations and that it could well break again because I
didn't know what I was doing, but I fixed it. Many years later my
friend has died (I sat with him for a couple hours the day he died), but
he got to fishing out of his boat many times before that. The boat now
sits in my driveway. My welds didn't break and the boat didn't sink.

> I've no experience of this, but anyway...
> 5052 is the only 5000-series which can be welded with 4043 filler
> wire.
>
> It's due to its lower Mg content, which leaves it still corrosion
> resistant but not susceptible to Stress Corrosion Cracking - at a cost
> of being crack-susceptible in welding.
>
> That Stress Corrosion Cracking - for lovely (?) higher-Mg alloys like
> 5083, there is the misfortune that it is SCC susceptible from 65C.
> Which can be unfortunate if your boat/ship is in a hot place with the
> sun beating down on it and seawater / salt on deck...
>
> So, here is good comment:
>
> https://www.thefabricator.com/thewelder/article/aluminumwelding/aluminum-workshop-where-in-the-world-is-the-5052-filler-alloy-
> "Aluminum Workshop: Where in the world is the 5052 filler alloy?"
>
> "
> ...
> So what filler should you use? Not surprisingly, 5356 is a very good
> choice. More surprisingly, 4043 also is a very good choice. In all
> other base/filler combinations, it is never recommended to weld a 5XXX
> alloy with 4043. However, the magnesium content of 5052 is low enough
> that 4043 works just fine.
> "

I had always been told to use 5356 with 5052. Multiple references
seemed to back that up including other people in this group and the SEJW
group which was more active at the time. I did run across an article
about a guy who was building a submarine using 4043 and 6061 because he
liked the way it welded better, but I never followed up on it to see if
his boat sank like it was supposed to or if it just sank. I seem to
recall also that (for TIG anyway) there are some other alloy fillers
that are suitable for a wider range of alloys, but again. Never
followed up on it. At the time I was told 5052 for all things boat
except heavy structural.

> Also see Lincoln
> c8100.pdf
> "Aluminum GMAW - Gas Metal Arc Welding for Aluminum Guide"
>
>
> I'm inviting comment here, everyone...
> A reason for using 5356 is it's so stiff you can use a "conventional"
> GMAW machine with a "push" wirefeeder. Although Al fitments. Polymer
> guides and liner; U-groove drive-rolls.
> I've never used 4043...

I did not know that. Imagine my consternation if I had tried to run
5356 aluminum in my regular MIG stinger back when I first bought the
Miller 212. LOL. Thank goodness it was dual stinger with a spool gun
or I might have completely given up on the machine.

>
> Anyway, boats...
>
> Quite some driven endeavour...?!

[Richard Smith]

My Doctoral research supervisor described Wayne Thomas (credited
inventor of Friction Stir Welding(?)) coming by that workshop and
trying out his ideal - using the milling machine I was using to
machine steel plate into samples - with "tools" they improvised as
they went along - and finding - it works!!!

[Bob La Londe]

I've seen some friction welding vids (using lathe) on YouTube, but I
never wanted to put that much heat into my machine. It looks neat, but
I suspect if you aren't running 5 ton or heavier machine to sink the
excess it will heat up things that should remain room temperature.
Maybe not, but it gives me the willies given that all my machines came
out of my pocket.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tf0eff$1pgk$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

I've seen some friction welding vids (using lathe) on YouTube, but I
never wanted to put that much heat into my machine. It looks neat, but
I suspect if you aren't running 5 ton or heavier machine to sink the
excess it will heat up things that should remain room temperature.
Maybe not, but it gives me the willies given that all my machines came
out of my pocket.

---------------------

I wasn't willing to push my old 10" lathe hard enough to make friction
welding succeed.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyilm4z...@void.com...

My Doctoral research supervisor described Wayne Thomas (credited
inventor of Friction Stir Welding(?)) coming by that workshop and
trying out his ideal - using the milling machine I was using to
machine steel plate into samples - with "tools" they improvised as
they went along - and finding - it works!!!

---------------

I heard a story from someone likely to know that laser eye surgery was
perfected on various tissues of hamsters strapped to a milling machine.

[Richard Smith]

Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99> writes:

> On 9/3/2022 12:01 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> "Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tetr8e$12o2$1...@gioia.aioe.org...
>>> ....
>>>
>>> Here's how to weld your boat with your milling machine:
>>>

>>> ...

>>
>> My Doctoral research supervisor described Wayne Thomas (credited
>> inventor of Friction Stir Welding(?)) coming by that workshop and
>> trying out his ideal - using the milling machine I was using to
>> machine steel plate into samples - with "tools" they improvised as
>> they went along - and finding - it works!!!
>
>
> I've seen some friction welding vids (using lathe) on YouTube, but I
> never wanted to put that much heat into my machine. It looks neat,
> but I suspect if you aren't running 5 ton or heavier machine to sink
> the excess it will heat up things that should remain room
> temperature. Maybe not, but it gives me the willies given that all my
> machines came out of my pocket.

This is "general" friction-welding? Heating up the entire area to be
fused by acting on the entire area at once.
Friction Stir Welding is working progressively with a "local" tool
along the joint being made.
The essence of friction stir welding is a plastic zone - a region
where the metal is flowing/shearing. Heat/temperature is only a
secondary effect, and the efficiency of the process keeps that low
(?).

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyr10r1...@void.com...

This is "general" friction-welding? Heating up the entire area to be
fused by acting on the entire area at once.
Friction Stir Welding is working progressively with a "local" tool
along the joint being made.
The essence of friction stir welding is a plastic zone - a region
where the metal is flowing/shearing. Heat/temperature is only a
secondary effect, and the efficiency of the process keeps that low
(?).

Will it work on 0.5~1.5mm aluminium on a lower power machine?

[Richard Smith]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyr10r1...@void.com...
>
> This is "general" friction-welding? Heating up the entire area to be
> fused by acting on the entire area at once.
> Friction Stir Welding is working progressively with a "local" tool
> along the joint being made.
> The essence of friction stir welding is a plastic zone - a region
> where the metal is flowing/shearing. Heat/temperature is only a
> secondary effect, and the efficiency of the process keeps that low
> (?).

--------------------------------

>
> Will it work on 0.5~1.5mm aluminium on a lower power machine?

I assume so, if you scale the tool to be proportionate to the small
thickness.