Fire the lazy bastards
Steve B
Let's make it just like on a job. You at least have to get something done
and not stand around all day and talk about nothing but bullshit, or you get
the pink sliperoo.
Cliff, TMT, curly, etc. What a waste of protoplasm.
Quit feeding the trolls, people.
Steve
cavelamb
Steve,
Excellent suggestion.
So...
Our electric company installed "Smart Meters" a couple of month ago.
Our electric bills instantly doubled (really).
Last month was over $500.
I can't imagine what would happen to anyone with a mill of lathe at home!
Anybody else in this situation?
--
Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/
Joseph Gwinn
cavelamb <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> So...
>
> Our electric company installed "Smart Meters" a couple of month ago.
What do they claim to be smart about the smart meters?
Where are you?
> Our electric bills instantly doubled (really).
> Last month was over $500.
The going in assumption would be that the new meters are wrong, and it would be
the utility's job to rebut this.
> I can't imagine what would happen to anyone with a mill of lathe at home!
>
> Anybody else in this situation?
Machine tools of RCM size do not draw anything like what an electric stove
and/or water heater draws.
Joe Gwinn
cavelamb
There is a class action suit over this mess in Dallas right now.
I'm in a small town north of there.
Are you sure about that, Joe.
I thought most of them were 220 to start with and pulled signifiant
power running.
Harold & Susan Vordos
"cavelamb" <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:p82dnWa1aOZpiQnW...@earthlink.com...
> Joseph Gwinn wrote:
snip->
> Are you sure about that, Joe.
> I thought most of them were 220 to start with and pulled signifiant
> power running.
You can safely assume that a horsepower equals only 746 watts. About half
what a small electric heater consumes.
Harold
RoyJ
+/- But the only motors that pull that kind of power CONTINUOUSLY are
pumps and compressors. Table saw, drill press, mill, etc etc draw a lot
of power but the high loads are short and the use is intermittent.
In contrast, an electric dryer would pull 5kw for the entire dry cycle
and an A/c unit a similar amount for all the time the compressor is
running.
Joseph Gwinn
While running, and water heaters run more hours a day than a lathe or mill, and
don't draw anything like nameplate rating unless grunting.
Water heaters and stoves are also 220.
Joe Gwinn
RoyJ
Steve B
"cavelamb" <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote
> Our electric company installed "Smart Meters" a couple of month ago.
>
> Our electric bills instantly doubled (really).
> Last month was over $500.
> I can't imagine what would happen to anyone with a mill of lathe at home!
>
> Anybody else in this situation?
> Richard Lamb
We took two of those "smart" thermostats off our rentals because everyone
was having the things run 27/7, and the bills dropped by half or more. On,
off, temp setting. $20 per.
Steve
Steve B
"Joseph Gwinn" <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:joegwinn-406672...@news.giganews.com...
How nice. Even though thread drift has already occurred, it's intelligent
conversation related to machinery.
Steve
Wes
>Our electric company installed "Smart Meters" a couple of month ago.
>
>Our electric bills instantly doubled (really).
>Last month was over $500.
>I can't imagine what would happen to anyone with a mill of lathe at home!
>
>Anybody else in this situation?
I've had a digital meter that must transmit over power lines since I can look up my energy
usage every day on the utilities website. I never noticed a change.
If you have something similar to a public utility commision, there will be a document on
their website that explains the rates in detail for every utility company. Most homes pay
for KWH but I've heard of rates where VA is used in calculating usage. That could make a
big difference if a rpc was in use.
Wes
Lewis Hartswick
> Make that "typical 1 HP" motor would draw 1500 watts.
...lew...
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Lots of people....
http://www.ucan.org/forum/forums/energy/sdg_e_disputes/billing_dispute
http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/030510dnbussmartmeters.3cf8e48.html
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Residents-Fight-Smart-Meters-86726112.html
Gunner
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.
This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
RoyJ
angle stuff. My motors run things like:1 HP/120 volts, 17 amps and 2
hp/240 volts, 9 amps, 2hp/240 12.6 amps, etc.
Andrew VK3BFA
> Steve B wrote:
>
> Our electric company installed "Smart Meters" a couple of month ago.
>
> Our electric bills instantly doubled (really).
> Last month was over $500.
> I can't imagine what would happen to anyone with a mill of lathe at home!
>
> Anybody else in this situation?
>
> --
>
> Richard Lambhttp://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/
Its happening here too - the "Greenwash" is that you will be able to
make "choices" about when you use power hungry appliances, ie not in
"peak rate" time. Works fine if you want to do something at 2am......
And get your head around this one folks - even if you dont have one
yet, you are being charged a fee for when they do fit it. When its
fitted, theres another "installation fee" on top of the rental, which
continues for ever. So, you are being charged for something you didn't
want, will never own, and is being used to make more money from you.
Go figure..
And another thing - the meters are capable of measuring the power you
feed back into the grid via solar cells - and at a 3x credit - but,
this seems to be too difficult for the utilities to work out..at least
the people who make up the bills...
They are nice bits of technology - remote reading, load shedding if
required......how come most new technology is used to make you pay
more.....
Andrew VK3BFA.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>Our electric company installed "Smart Meters" a couple of month ago.
>
>Our electric bills instantly doubled
Then it's time for you to make some sensible observations, perhaps
learn a little basic math <gasp>, and cut the waste. One of these
would be a help
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882715001 to
gain some perspective about the energy consumption of all the "little"
loads you've probably been ignoring. A few hours doing that stuff
could save you some real money.
> (really).
Bwahaha!
>Last month was over $500
Clearly you use so much energy that you don't have any sort of handle
on it other than blaming the evil meter, evil power company, or
whatever.
>I can't imagine what would happen to anyone with a mill of lathe at home!
Would you believe... pretty much nothing at all? Say, $1 per day for
substantial use of a 12X36. Of course you wouldn't believe that. But
the fact remains that even major power tools that draw lots of power,
but little energy due to short cycle times, cost very little to run.
If that weren't true, then I couldn't be using a lathe or a planer or
welding with an off-grid power setup that averages about 15kWh per
day. The real mystery why someone who's probably using >7 times as
much energy, imagines that a lathe is an energy hog.
>Anybody else in this situation?
You bet there is. Everybody who thought that a "little" cube heater
couldn't possibly cost much to run. All the folks who send money to
Nigerian princes. Probably millions who believe that their Toyota's
computer is conspiring against them. Even more who believe that water,
gold, missing persons, etc. can be found with a forked stick or a bent
coat hanger. I could go on. But I won't except to say that we're
facing an epidemic of "believers" who think that Occam's razor is an
eight bladed disposable... the first blade takes some off, the next
gets a little more, etc. :-)
Wayne
John
In the last two months my electric usage doubled according to the smart
meter. Also the rate of usage doubled too since I have a demand meter.
The bill went from 800 to 1600 dollars for the last two months.
And to top that off, I can't log into the meter usage site because
another company has already logged in on my meter and I cannot get access.
John
cavelamb
> Not really. Under full load, a typical RCM motor will pull 1500 watts
> +/- But the only motors that pull that kind of power CONTINUOUSLY are
> pumps and compressors. Table saw, drill press, mill, etc etc draw a lot
> of power but the high loads are short and the use is intermittent.
>
> In contrast, an electric dryer would pull 5kw for the entire dry cycle
> and an A/c unit a similar amount for all the time the compressor is
> running.
>
Makes me wonder if the meter software isn't looking at the inrush current
and not sampling again for 5 minutes (or until the next edge?)
Jim Stewart
> You can safely assume that a horsepower equals only 746 watts.
If it's a Craftsman horsepower, it's a lot less than that (:
Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
>Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
>
>> You can safely assume that a horsepower equals only 746 watts.
>
>If it's a Craftsman horsepower, it's a lot less than that (:
I thought the CHP rating was measured by blocking the rotor from
turning, applying line voltage and measuring the peak watts before the
fuse/motor blew... maybe in an extra cold room with line voltage on
the high side.
Jim Stewart
Marvelous. Now if I could just get PG&E to
bill me for Craftsman KWhs.
RBnDFW
Hey, my filters are finally working!!
How nice :)
My shop is in N Texas.
To give you an idea how much my machines got used last month, my
electric bill was under $20.00
Steve B
"RBnDFW" <burkh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hn3tf5$86u$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
Even then, at the hourly rate, one could make beer or golfing or fishing
money on $20 worth of electricity.
Steve
Harold & Susan Vordos
"RoyJ" <spam...@microsoft.net> wrote in message
news:HJmdnVdubLvigQnW...@earthlink.com...
> Not really. Under full load, a typical RCM motor will pull 1500 watts +/-
nonsense. If a 1 horse motor is run AT CAPACITY, it draws roughly 746
watts. If it's drawing higher wattage, it's not running at capacity, but
over capacity. That's not what we're talking about.
>But the only motors that pull that kind of power CONTINUOUSLY are pumps and
>compressors.
Rather bold statement, isn't it? Any motor that is running at capacity,
doing the work it is intended to do, is drawing its rated amperage.
> Table saw, drill press, mill, etc etc draw a lot of power but the high
> loads are short and the use is intermittent.
Unless they are being worked over their rated capacity, they do not draw
more than their rated wattage, although when the load is lower than the
capability, they do draw less amperage, thus lower wattage. I do agree with
that.
>
> In contrast, an electric dryer would pull 5kw for the entire dry cycle
That has nothing to do with the motor-----and everything to do with the
heating element. The motor is likely no larger than 1/3 horse, if that,
and consumes only a couple amps at best. Further, a dryer does NOT consume
that level of power for its entire cycle. Most dryers have a cool down
period, where only the motor operates. Couple amps, tops, and not even that
if the motor operates @ 240 volts.
> and an A/c unit a similar amount for all the time the compressor is
> running.
Yep----but it draws to its design limits, not more. That, of course, is
not true when the motor is starting, at which time it may well draw five
times its rated capacity, but only briefly. Otherwise it would overheat
and stop. It's not magic, and it's not the luck of the draw. These
things are well known and engineered.
Harold
Harold & Susan Vordos
"Spehro Pefhany" <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:87jap5lcqrq83n5os...@4ax.com...
I believe you are correct in your assessment. They generally rate by locked
rotor amperage, which is totally useless to the consumer.
Sears has, for years, used shady methods of advertising machinery,
compressors included.
I have a theory relating to Sears. Read what they say, then assume 1/4 of
the advertised power. That *might* get you close.
Harold
Harold & Susan Vordos
"Jim Stewart" <jste...@jkmicro.com> wrote in message
news:hn3hun$qkn$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
>
>> You can safely assume that a horsepower equals only 746 watts.
>
> If it's a Craftsman horsepower, it's a lot less than that (:
Chuckle!
All too true.
I own one of those more than 2 horse radial arm saws, from Sears. I'd be
shocked if it developed more than 1 horse.
Shocked, I say! :-)
Harold
Don Foreman
<vor...@tds.net> wrote:
>
>"RoyJ" <spam...@microsoft.net> wrote in message
>news:HJmdnVdubLvigQnW...@earthlink.com...
>> Not really. Under full load, a typical RCM motor will pull 1500 watts +/-
>Maybe I don't know what a "typical RCM motor" is, but to that I say
>nonsense. If a 1 horse motor is run AT CAPACITY, it draws roughly 746
>watts. If it's drawing higher wattage, it's not running at capacity, but
>over capacity. That's not what we're talking about.
The rating of a motor refers to it's output, not its input. Real
motors are not perfectly efficient. A 1 HP motor must be 82.5%
efficient or better to be labled as NEMA EPACT. Smaller motors tend
to be less efficient than larger motors, efficiency defined as
output/input.
>
>>But the only motors that pull that kind of power CONTINUOUSLY are pumps and
>>compressors.
>
>Rather bold statement, isn't it? Any motor that is running at capacity,
>doing the work it is intended to do, is drawing its rated amperage.
Different motors delivering the same amount of HP can draw different
amperages because they can have different power factors as well as
different efficiencies. Power factor is the cosine of the phase angle
between voltage and current, which can be substantial in an induction
motor. Actual power, that which registers on your KWH meter, is
voltage * current * power factor.
Winston
(...)
> I believe you are correct in your assessment. They generally rate by
> locked rotor amperage, which is totally useless to the consumer.
>
> Sears has, for years, used shady methods of advertising machinery,
> compressors included.
>
> I have a theory relating to Sears. Read what they say, then assume 1/4
> of the advertised power. That *might* get you close.
>
> Harold
There is good news, though.
We buy with Sears Dollars, that lost 75% of their value since 1975.
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
:)
--Winston
Wes
>I own one of those more than 2 horse radial arm saws, from Sears. I'd be
>shocked if it developed more than 1 horse.
>
>Shocked, I say! :-)
>
I bet you get closer on a percentage basis to your RA saws true HP than I will to my 6 HP
shop vac.
Wes
Martin H. Eastburn
I have a 1/3 HP Craftsman motor on my wood lathe. I think it is a 1/2.
I'll have to measure it. Easy if I get to it. It is a 1946 cast iron
and looks like a 5 hp motor. Big. Runs still on the ball bearings
in each end. Big deal to have ball bearings. :-)
See if I can get to it.
Martin
Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
>Our electric company installed "Smart Meters" a couple of month ago.
>
>Our electric bills instantly doubled (really).
>Last month was over $500.
>I can't imagine what would happen to anyone with a mill of lathe at home!
>
>Anybody else in this situation?
Not really, but...
Did they institute "Time of Day" billing? That would explain the
huge jump, as they try to retrain people to use less during the
afternoon peak periods. And increase their income at the same time...
The only other things would be if you have a lot of motor use and
the new meters are more accurately catching the start surges as KWH.
There's an inertia in the reluctor wheel the old registers use.
Or they are now metering for Demand Charges, but that's usually on
commercial and industrial services only.
Or they are still using the " Multiply by 5" math from the old
mechanical meter to bill the direct reading new electronic meter. But
I doubt that, because computers never make misteaks like that.
If you think they are ripping you off, you can clamp on your own
meter and measure your use independently - If the two meters don't
agree.... www.emondmon.com Clip on the split bobbin current
transformers, hook up the Voltage Sense leads, and you've got a
certified for resale recording device.
--<< Bruce >>--
Harold & Susan Vordos
"Wes" <clu...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:Y_Bln.19907$rq1....@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
Pretty hard to argue with that, Wes.
(I sent a copy of this to your email address by mistake. Sorry)
H
Harold & Susan Vordos
"Steve Ackman" <st...@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com> wrote in message
news:slrnhpg4ll...@sorceror.wizard.dyndns.org...
> In <wHnln.105$Sp1...@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, on Tue, 09 Mar 2010
> 08:31:24 GMT, Harold & Susan Vordos, vor...@tds.net wrote:
snip->
> Make that past tense instead of imperfect.
> "Did," for years (at least on the compressor front).
>
Yep----I should have said it that way.
While I don't recall the details, I do remember when there was quite an
uproar over the false claims being made by them, as well as others. Sort
of a dick size contest, or so it seemed. :-)
H
Jim Stewart
If so, it's a completely fraudulent measurement.
Horsepower is defined as work done over time.
A locked-rotor motor does no work. Seems like a
nice class-action suit could be won over this...
Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
>Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 11:08:11 -0800, Jim Stewart <jste...@jkmicro.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can safely assume that a horsepower equals only 746 watts.
>>> If it's a Craftsman horsepower, it's a lot less than that (:
>>
>> I thought the CHP rating was measured by blocking the rotor from
>> turning, applying line voltage and measuring the peak watts before the
>> fuse/motor blew... maybe in an extra cold room with line voltage on
>> the high side.
>
>If so, it's a completely fraudulent measurement.
>Horsepower is defined as work done over time.
It can also be considered to be watts/745.7, as the horsepower *input*
to the motor (which just happens to have 0% efficiency).
>A locked-rotor motor does no work. Seems like a
>nice class-action suit could be won over this...
I'd be happy to act as an expert witness for the defense, at a
somewhat inflated charge-out rate. ;-)
Michael A. Terrell
Steve Ackman wrote:
>
> In <ls3mn.123$Sp1...@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, on Thu, 11 Mar 2010
> 10:18:57 GMT, Harold & Susan Vordos, vor...@tds.net wrote:
>
> > While I don't recall the details, I do remember when there was quite an
> > of a dick size contest, or so it seemed. :-)
>
> not even sure they're the ones who started it, but
> once started, they all had to jump on the "Peak HP"
> wagon.
Just about everyone selling vacuum cleaners. Their claims 'sucked'
more than their products.
--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'
Harold & Susan Vordos
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4B99B8B2...@earthlink.net...
>
> Steve Ackman wrote:
>>
>> In <ls3mn.123$Sp1...@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, on Thu, 11 Mar 2010
>> 10:18:57 GMT, Harold & Susan Vordos, vor...@tds.net wrote:
>>
>> > While I don't recall the details, I do remember when there was quite an
>> > uproar over the false claims being made by [Sears], as well as others.
>> > Sort
>> > of a dick size contest, or so it seemed. :-)
>>
>> Yeah, it certainly wasn't just Sears doing it. I'm
>> not even sure they're the ones who started it, but
>> once started, they all had to jump on the "Peak HP"
>> wagon.
>
>
> Just about everyone selling vacuum cleaners. Their claims 'sucked'
> more than their products.
<snicker>
H