OT range report that very few readers will find of interest
Don Foreman
Dave (works with Todd, new to us), Mary 'n me.
Dave is a quiet guy, probably mid 40's, works at Medtronics. Very
probably a senior engineer or IT guy. Todd is working there on a
project of some kind. I think I can guess the general nature knowing
Todd's general area of expertise, but I also suspect that Todd would
prefer I'd not guess and it doesn't matter anyway.
Dave didn't bring any guns, but he's obviously a shooter. The idea
to invite Dave might have occurred to Todd only this morning. Our
gunsmoke luncheon social group always has plenty of guns,ammo, and
willingness to share any and all. Dave was interested in
collecting Todd's spent brass and, upon inquiry, said he reloads. I
expect his pistol is a Glock, probably .40, because Todd's Glock .40
seemed to be what he was shooting most and that was the brass he was
interested in collecting. He did try Doc, our stainless Smith &
Wesson 686 .357 magnum, with full magnum loads that fetched a big
grin. I don't even make powderpuff rounds anymore, just magnums.
That revolver is much more fun with magnums. I just love the
quizzical looks when the routine popping of .22's 9's, 40's, and
.45's is punctuated by the boom, flash and cloud of smoke from that
.357, as in "what the **** was that?" Everyone of either gender
who shoots it loves it. It doesn't hurt and it's a hell of a show.
Dave's muzzle control with a .40 is excellent but the .357 was
rockin' him a bit. Didn't affect his accuracy, just widened his grin.
That's how it works with nearly all who try it.
Everyone was shooting well today. Laura wasn't as jawdroppingly good
as I've seen her when she's really cookin', but she was doing OK
with her .40. .40 is not an easy caliber to shoot well, but she
does. She enjoyed trying out my Para Carry 9 and Mary's Lil' Sig
.380. Nobody I know can shoot that little Sig like Mary does. She
can shoot about anything respectably, but it's like that little Sig
was custom-made to fit her hand.
Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
OK, though range-realistic that's a silly postulate for a shit sit.
You know that .380 is 9mm short. How about 8 rounds of 9mm 90-grain
bullets accurately delivered to center of mass with some head shots?
You know that shitsits are not range-like aimed-fire sits, they're
point-and-shoot sits with both threat and shooter in motion.
If you can hand-hold a .50BMG like Sly Stallone in the movies, then
that'd be a good choice for you. Mary can't do that, nor can I at age
68.
At one point, Brian suggested a little competition. That would be
Brian, he's a competitive guy. Each of 5 of us wrote our names on
one target on a 5-bull sheet. Quietly understated Mary was quite
content not to join the competition. Range that Brian set was
quite short, possibly as little as 15 feet. I'd been shooting my
Carry 9 semiauto 9mm, but when it was my turn to shoot at the
competition target I brought Doc to the firing line. Doc is so named
because I bought it from a professor at Central Michigan University
whose web nym is Doc. Doc is fitted with a laser embedded in the
grip that puts a red dot on the point of aim. My presbyopic old eyes
have a bit of trouble focussing on sights and target at the same time,
but I can sure see that red dot. When the smoke cleared, it was clear
that I'd shot the 1" dia orange center right out of that target
with 6 rounds in about 9 seconds. I got a bunch of "boo, hiss,
that's cheating!" "Whaddya mean cheating?" Todd held up his hand
with splayed fingers, took a pugnacious forward-leaning
drill-sergeant stance, ticked off the charges on his fingers: one:
REVOLVER! Two: LASER!" He has a big, square face and is built
like a rainbarrel fulla ferroconcrete It was hilarious, especially
from Todd who is one of the gentlest (and brightest) people I know.
"I din't hear no rules saying no revolvers or lasers, and anyway
lasers aren't cheating for shooters over 65. And besides that , it's
foolish not to cheat in a gunfight." That got a chorus of "um, yeah,
err, well all right then."
Brian's target was about unbelievable. He was shooting a Springfield
XD .40, had four holes touching. I didn't think that pistol could
shoot that well even off a rest even at that short range and he was
shooting offhand. He tossed a fifth round clear out of the black
and then I think he decided to quit while he was ahead, but those
first four were quite remarkable. I think the XD .40 holds 12
rounds.
Winning is important to Brian. We all understand that, not a problem
at all. He's good company and he shares well.
Todd said he and Laura are on to shoot at the Sherriff's range soon.
They make a significant contribution to charity to shoot with the
Sherriff's deputies. If they can shoot better, then they get a
sweatshirt that proclaims "I OUTSHOT THE SHERRIFF". I think they'll
both get sweatshirts.
Lunch was excellent. There's a Mex joint about a mile from the Circle
Pines range. I'm glad this group has decided they like that one
better than the one in Robbinsdale, because I sure do. It's a bit
further drive from their workplace ... ah, but Todd's working at
Medtronics which is about 6 blocks from there and Brian worked at home
this morning until they got the roads plowed out in Isanti county
after the snowstorm.
There's a convenient Greek joint right next to Bill's in Robbinsdale,
but driving a mile for lunch from the range in Circle Pines is
acceptable. I had a Chimichanga which may have been the best I'ver
ever had. Mary gives them top marks too. Not a fancy venue, but
very good grub.
Winter has arrived in Fridley. Mr. Toro the snowblower started on
the 2d pull after his summer vacation. We got maybe 5 or 6 inches,
not a huge dump but definitely "plowable" as they say. It drifts near
the house and between the cars. Roads were passable and traffic was
moving but things were a bit slickery here and there. I thought I
was gonna have an eau chitte moment when I tried to make a right turn
at an intersection but the car kept going straight. Fortunately, the
front wheels did eventually find purchase just in time. It was one of
those time-slows moments when ya sit there thinking, "I wonder how
this is gonna turn out."
Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.
Karl Townsend
...
> Winter has arrived in Fridley. Mr. Toro the snowblower started on
> the 2d pull after his summer vacation. We got maybe 5 or 6 inches,
> not a huge dump but definitely "plowable" as they say. It drifts near
> the house and between the cars. Roads were passable and traffic was
> moving but things were a bit slickery here and there. I thought I
> was gonna have an eau chitte moment when I tried to make a right turn
> at an intersection but the car kept going straight. Fortunately, the
> front wheels did eventually find purchase just in time. It was one of
> those time-slows moments when ya sit there thinking, "I wonder how
> this is gonna turn out."
>
> Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
> million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.
Last night was brutal! makes me dream of a fishing trip. Maybe you should
come too.
Karl
Pete Keillor
Last Friday, I actually saw a flurry here in central Texas (moved back
from Michigan a month or so ago). Everybody was freaked out at even
the possibility of snow, and a lot stayed home. It didn't stick. The
scary thing isn't a little snow, it's the sight of Texans driving on
snow. The thought is almost enough to make me stay home, too.
This morning it's 30 F. I can handle that. No snow in sight, as it
should be.
Pete Keillor
Robert Swinney
357 hog is about as much electronics as one should see mixed in with the shooting arts. Oh well !
Maybe a chrono, but only if you roll your own.
Bob Swinney
"Don Foreman" <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote in message
news:4q41i5tbekk795g5h...@4ax.com...
Wes
>Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
>million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.
I feel the same way about Michigan and winter.
Were you shooting indoors or outdoors?
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Don Foreman
>Don Foreman <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>Temp right now in my back yard is 4 F. Windchill is probably about a
>>million below zero. I like Minnesota a lot but I dislike winter.
>
>I feel the same way about Michigan and winter.
>
>Were you shooting indoors or outdoors?
>
>Wes
Indoor 50 yd range. The gunsmoke luncheons and socials with this
group happen about monthly during the winter season. I won't be
shooting outdoors again until the snow is gone, probably early to mid
April.
Gunner Asch
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
>never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
>predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
to kill you?
If you can..you are golden.
Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
mass and be the last man standing
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.
This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
cavelamb
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
> <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>> Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
>> never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
>> predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
>
> Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
> to kill you?
>
> If you can..you are golden.
>
> Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
> mass and be the last man standing
>
>
I hate being called "Golden", but yes, it's just a matter of focus.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Run a Hogans Alley course recently? Id love to see the video.
Simunitions and return fire of course.
Gunner
cavelamb
> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:47:20 -0600, cavelamb <cave...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Gunner Asch wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
>>> <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
>>>> never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
>>>> predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
>>> Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
>>> to kill you?
>>>
>>> If you can..you are golden.
>>>
>>> Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
>>> mass and be the last man standing
>>>
>>>
>> I hate being called "Golden", but yes, it's just a matter of focus.
>
> Run a Hogans Alley course recently? Id love to see the video.
> Simunitions and return fire of course.
>
> Gunner
>
>
Nope. I've never done that.
But I've been through quite a few live fire fights.
Of course, those were with an M-60, not a pop gun...
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Then Ill hold off on calling you Golden. Its much different being in a
firefight up close and personal with a handgun, than having a running
firefight armed with a shitload of 7.62 and a hose.
Its hard enough to focus well enough to hit the bad guy with your
single trigger squeeze...but to hit him in the face, heart etc etc....
Shrug....been there, done that, both in the Machine and on the street.
As I said..Ill stick with something big enough that even a marginal hit
will cause him/them to stop shooting back.
Damned shame they dont make an expanding 12ga that fits in your back
pocket until needed.
GeoLane at PTD dot NET
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:26:51 -0600, Don Foreman
><dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>Gunner, we don't regard .380 as a poodle-shooter round because we've
>>never encountered a poodle we wanted to shoot. We like dogs. As for
>>predators, pick a nostril or eye from which you'd shrug a .380 hit.
......................
>Think you can hit one thats moving fast and attached to someone trying
>to kill you?
>
>If you can..you are golden.
>
>Gunner, who would rather punch a couple 230gr Silvertips into center of
>mass and be the last man standing
.......................
It's time to remember Flim-flam from rec.guns who used a .25 to do
exactly what Don was saying. The link was from a different group,
but it's the same message I remember.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39761
RWL
cavelamb
That last couple of paragraphs - I can really relate to.
This is not something you shrug off lightly no matter how it played out.
pyotr filipivich
about Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:14:47 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
<EG> One with terminal guidance. Like the Dum-dums Eddie had in his
gat in _Who Shot Roger Rabbit?_ Yeah, smart bullets ... that's the
ticket.
That ought to be easier to use than the 24/7 overwatch and
protection detail.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
Gunner Asch
Ayup...he was stuck on the end of a ninja sword, held by a nutcase..who
was then shot 4 times in the face at contact range by a .25...
Think that sort of thing is going to happen with any regularity?
As Flim Flam indicated..he brain locked and passed up the tools he
should have used
"To give you an idea how much the mind goes during something like this--
I passed up my Beretta 92 lying on my reloading bench all ready to go,
with one up the pipe. I passed up an AK all loaded up by the door. I
didn't have time to get to my 870 in the 'ready rack' ( yeah, right) all
ready to go. Couldn't make it to my AR all ready to go. There were a lot
of things around the store that I couldn't just place my hands upon."
Think you are going to be connected to the guy trying to kill you by the
length of the sword stuck in your guts, with any great regularlity?
Shrug...hey...carry what you want. Its YOUR life, not mine.
Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
And which branch of the US military does the same?
Ill be waiting with interest.
Gunner
Larry Jaques
NET <GeoLane at PTD dot NET> scrawled the following:
OUCH! Luckily, the guy was only a wannabe ninja, huh?
--
This episode raises disturbing questions about scientific standards,
at least in highly political areas such as global warming. Still,
it's remarkable to see how quickly corrective information can now
spread. After years of ignored freedom-of-information requests and
stonewalling, all it took was disclosure to change the debate. Even
the most influential scientists must prove their case in the court
of public opinion�a court that, thanks to the Web, is one where
eventually all views get a hearing. --Gordon Crovitz, WSJ 12/9/09
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
>.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
>
>And which branch of the US military does the same?
>
>Ill be waiting with interest.
James Bond, whose exploits are every bit as real as yours, favors a
.25. But certainly there are other experts whose opinions we should
seek out. Anybody have an email address for Deputy Dawg or Elmer Fudd?
Wayne
rangerssuck
> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:43:03 -0600, cavelamb <cavel...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Gunner Asch wrote:
> >> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:47:20 -0600, cavelamb <cavel...@earthlink.net>
If I read this correctly, Gunner claims to have shot people in the
street. If so, there certainly should be a record of it somewhere. I
wonder if Gunner would be so kind as to produce such record?
If not, This is just another of his lies.
Ed Huntress
"Gunner Asch" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:6muri5d6tvbeo7v0k...@4ax.com...
One standard issue for police up through the 1920s was .32 Colt New Police,
which is the same thing as .32 S&W Long. But there were more legal reasons
to shoot in those days.
Don Foreman
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>
>Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
>.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.
Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.
>
>And which branch of the US military does the same?
None. When I was a soldier my sidearm was the M1911A1 in .45ACP. I am
not a soldier now.
Don Foreman
In early novels James Bond favored the Walther PPK which was made in
Gunner Asch
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
><gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>>
>>Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
>>.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
>
>PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
>Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
>It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.
>
>Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.
And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?
>>
>>And which branch of the US military does the same?
>
>None. When I was a soldier my sidearm was the M1911A1 in .45ACP. I am
>not a soldier now.
And yet the need to stop someone as fast as possible is different in
what way,if one is part of the Green Machine or a civiy?
wmbjk...@citlink.net
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_James_Bond_firearms
"he introduced Bond as using a Beretta 418"
"The Beretta 418 in 6.35 mm (.25 ACP)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_418
"007's weapon of choice, his .25 calibre Beretta was taken from him in
Dr. No when M called in the armourer for advice"
http://www.mi6.co.uk/sections/q-branch/beretta.php3
No pertinent <snorf> articles on Fudd or Dawg, so you expirts are free
to argue over which weapons they favored and if they'd be good for
shark shooting. Oh, and don't forget to whine about the i in expirt,
since I'd hate to think that I overrode the spellchecker for nothing.
Wayne
cavelamb
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:47:55 -0600, Don Foreman
> <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
>> <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>>> Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
>>> .25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
>> PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
>> Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
>> It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.
>>
>> Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.
>
> And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
> for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?
>>> And which branch of the US military does the same?
>> None. When I was a soldier my sidearm was the M1911A1 in .45ACP. I am
>> not a soldier now.
>
>
> And yet the need to stop someone as fast as possible is different in
> what way,if one is part of the Green Machine or a civiy?
>
> Gunner
>
To quote gunner Himself, How often does that happen in real life?
How many people here have EVER shot anybody?
Show of hands, please?
David R.Birch
> Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
> .25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
>
> And which branch of the US military does the same?
>
> Ill be waiting with interest.
>
> Gunner
You still don't get the point that the reason such small guns are used
is that they are, in many cases, the only concealed option available.
No one prefers a .25 over a .45 if the .45 can be concealed, often it
can't.
David
David R.Birch
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:47:55 -0600, Don Foreman
> <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
>> <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>>> Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
>>> .25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
>> PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
>> Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
>> It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.
>>
>> Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.
>
> And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
> for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?
Baader-Meinhof and the other RAF types are the reason European cops
went from the common 7.65X17 to 9x19.
David
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Gunner, raises his hand, both hands and strains both feet.
Gunner also wonders why anyone carries a deadly weapon if its not to be
employed in the worst case that such a situation unfortunately arrives.
Or do those same people think a cast zinc screwdriver is appropriate to
removing stuck screws?
Gunner Asch
wrote:
An appropriate firearm sufficent to the task cannot be concealed? Then
why would anyone dress in such a fashion?
Speedos and a towel do make it a bit hard to carry. But anything
else...they simply need to know how to dress themselves.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>Gunner Asch wrote:
Ayup. Seems that they too were looking for a gun appropriate to the
task...big enough to do the job.
Can anyone tell me why?
<G>
GeoLane at PTD dot NET
>>It's time to remember Flim-flam from rec.guns who used a .25 to do
>>exactly what Don was saying. The link was from a different group,
>>but it's the same message I remember.
>>
>>http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39761
>>
>>RWL
...........
>Ayup...he was stuck on the end of a ninja sword, held by a nutcase..who
>was then shot 4 times in the face at contact range by a .25...
>Think that sort of thing is going to happen with any regularity?
........................
Nah. I'd agree with you there, but it reinforces that any gun is
better than no gun. How much gun you carry or whether you carry at
all is a personal choice and a matter of how much risk you're likely
to face.
RWL
Gunner Asch
Well DUH...of course any gun is better than no gun. But why the devil
should one carry an Almost Gun in lew of a real one?????
Thats like having a Chiwawa as a guard dog rather than a german shepard.
Yes....the TacoBell dog will make noise and perhaps even attack the bad
guy, but the chances of him stopping a determined attacker immediately
is pretty slim, no?
cavelamb
It's just because every time I stuff my .50 in my pocket,
the girls won't leave me alone!
pyotr filipivich
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
>>
>>
>>How many people here have EVER shot anybody?
>>
>>Show of hands, please?
>
>Gunner, raises his hand, both hands and strains both feet.
>
>
>Gunner also wonders why anyone carries a deadly weapon if its not to be
>employed in the worst case that such a situation unfortunately arrives.
As I was instructed: Lethal force is not "an option". It is the
last resort, all other 'options' having been foreclosed. Well, there
does remain one other option to using lethal force: dieing. There is
no third alternative.
>Or do those same people think a cast zinc screwdriver is appropriate to
>removing stuck screws?
If it is a plastic screw ....???
pyotr
Gunner Asch
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Let the Record show that Gunner Asch <gun...@lightspeed.net> on or
>about Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:45:23 -0800 did write/type or cause to
>appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>
>>>
>>>To quote gunner Himself, How often does that happen in real life?
>>>
>>>How many people here have EVER shot anybody?
>>>
>>>Show of hands, please?
>>
>>Gunner, raises his hand, both hands and strains both feet.
>>
>>
>>Gunner also wonders why anyone carries a deadly weapon if its not to be
>>employed in the worst case that such a situation unfortunately arrives.
>
> As I was instructed: Lethal force is not "an option". It is the
>last resort, all other 'options' having been foreclosed. Well, there
>does remain one other option to using lethal force: dieing. There is
>no third alternative.
Indeed. And one can use Slowly Lethal Force and still wind up involved
in the 3rd option.
>
>>Or do those same people think a cast zinc screwdriver is appropriate to
>>removing stuck screws?
>
> If it is a plastic screw ....???
Lots of plastic bad guys out there?
Gunner
>
>
>pyotr
>-
>pyotr filipivich
>We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
>It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
pyotr filipivich
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:16:54 -0800, pyotr filipivich
><ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Let the Record show that Gunner Asch <gun...@lightspeed.net> on or
>>about Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:45:23 -0800 did write/type or cause to
>>appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>To quote gunner Himself, How often does that happen in real life?
>>>>
>>>>How many people here have EVER shot anybody?
>>>>
>>>>Show of hands, please?
>>>
>>>Gunner, raises his hand, both hands and strains both feet.
>>>
>>>
>>>Gunner also wonders why anyone carries a deadly weapon if its not to be
>>>employed in the worst case that such a situation unfortunately arrives.
>>
>> As I was instructed: Lethal force is not "an option". It is the
>>last resort, all other 'options' having been foreclosed. Well, there
>>does remain one other option to using lethal force: dieing. There is
>>no third alternative.
>
>Indeed. And one can use Slowly Lethal Force and still wind up involved
>in the 3rd option.
>>
>>>Or do those same people think a cast zinc screwdriver is appropriate to
>>>removing stuck screws?
>>
>> If it is a plastic screw ....???
>
>Lots of plastic bad guys out there?
Plastic Ono Band?
Don Foreman
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:47:55 -0600, Don Foreman
><dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:28:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
>><gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>Though Im curious..anyone know any law enforcement agencies who issue
>>>.25s or .380s to street cops as their primary arm? And why not?
>>
>>PPK stands for Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell (Police Pistol Detective
>>Model), carried by many plain-clothes policemen in Europe.
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP
>>It was made in .32ACP and .380ACP or 9mm Kurz.
>>
>>Perhaps these were not "street cops". I am not one either.
>
>And of course the Euros tended to have running gun fights that lasted
>for quite some time. Might I point out Badder-Meinhoff and others.....?
>>>
>>>And which branch of the US military does the same?
>>
>>None. When I was a soldier my sidearm was the M1911A1 in .45ACP. I am
>>not a soldier now.
>
>
>And yet the need to stop someone as fast as possible is different in
>what way,if one is part of the Green Machine or a civiy?
>
>Gunner
Soldiers are there to aggressively engage and destroy the enemy. They
pursue armed combat. If there isn't a battle going on they hunt the
enemy with intent to destroy. The likelihood that a combat soldier
will get shot at and need to shoot others to survive is 100%. The
preferred weapons are SA and FA rifles and sometimes shotguns, not
handguns.
According to NRA data (I think), something like 90% of civilian armed
confrontations result in no shots fired. Maybe I saw that in one of
Ayoob's books. The caliber of shots not fired is immaterial.
If you think you might actually need to stop an assailant with fire
then you should indeed pack the heaviest caliber you can shoot
reasonably well and are willing to pack.
Most civilians consider it highly unlikely that they will ever be
confronted by an armed assailant when out and about, especially if
evasion and/or avoidance are possible as is usually the case. I'm one
of those. However, it's generally accepted by authorities (e.g.
Ayoob) that some people may well be regarded by predators as "easy
prey", e.g. seniors and women. I'm one of those, being 68. For
these people, there may be times, places or situations where we feel
that ability to display/deploy a defensive weapon could act as
deterrent merely by dispelling the notion that we are easy prey. No
shots fired. Statistics suggest that we'd be right for about 90% of
such unlikely encounters.
Since I have never once been attacked in the 43 years since leaving
the military, I don't feel that the superior stopping power of a
"serious" caliber would warrant the inconvenience of carry for me. I
think the likelihood of my ever shooting anyone for the rest of my
life is vanishingly small. That's not to imply that you're wrong or
that I disagree with your choice of carry. Perhaps you go in
dangerous places or have some nasty enemies. I don't. I know that
there are times when even a .45 isn't quite enough. Handguns are what
soldiers use to fight their way to a rifle.
Nor do I disagree with the vast majority of civilians who feel no need
to ever carry any sort of self defense arm. Very few citizens become
victims as a result of that choice. We each and all get to choose our
risks. I carried no weapon other than a blade for 43 years and do so
only rarely now. A small .380 is my choice because it's very easy to
pocket so I may grab it when I wouldn't bother with a .45. It'd be
a fatally poor choice for a gunfight but it's considerably more
defense than pepper spray, a cellphone, or the .45 I left at home
rather than bother with it.
As a matter of risk assessment: if you are still ever smoking at all,
that presents significantly higher risk to you than not carrying a DRT
(dead right there) caliber handgun. More folks get away with smoking
than don't, but smoking is very risky for we who have had bypass
surgery and take beta blocker meds. I've not become a PITA
anti-smoking evangelist, just sayin' as a fellow traveller. Pick yer
pony, take yer ride. I think Larry Jock is right: it's less a matter
of discipline than a decision to be done. Discipline may be necessary
to make the trip.
Gunner Asch
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>A small .380 is my choice because it's very easy to
>pocket so I may grab it when I wouldn't bother with a .45. It'd be
>a fatally poor choice for a gunfight
Bingo.
So if you carry a rabbits foot and hope/pray, given your lack of
external threat...you should be perfectly safe, correct? So why bother
carrying?
Im a bit nonplussed because of people carrying a "fatally poor choice
for a gunfight" because they may become involved in a gunfight at some
time in their lives.
Blink blink...blink.
There are other choices of similar size in more appropriate
calibers..which is why Im fascinated by folks claiming that the "fatally
poor choice" they made is better than those other more appropriate
calibers.
Its well known that there are pocket sized 9mm Paras, .40s, 45s, 357s
and so forth that are about the same size as the average .380.
Shrug...a Detectives Special with a decent 125gr JHP is FAR FAR superior
to a .380 of any sort. And its a .38 Special Revolver.
But thanks for your clear explaination of your thinking process on the
subject.
Not one of course..that I agree with in the
slightest..shrug..but...shrug
Im also curious as to why folks simply dont carry a plastic replica of a
firearm. Being hollow and of plastic..they weigh nearly nothing and as
you say..they might work in 90% of the situations.
That other pesky 10% however.....shrug.......
Larry Jaques
<ph...@mindspring.com> scrawled the following:
Pete, did you just utter the musical equivalent of Godwin's Law with
that last line?
--------------------------------------------
-- I'm in touch with my Inner Curmudgeon. --
============================================
rangerssuck
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:33:38 -0600, cavelamb <cavel...@earthlink.net>
As I said earlier, If Gunner has shot someone outside of military
service, there should be a public record. If he can't produce a police
record or, at least, a newspaper clipping, then he is, as usual, full
of shit. And yes, I'd be glad to say that to his face.
Don Foreman
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:11:44 -0600, Don Foreman
><dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>A small .380 is my choice because it's very easy to
>>pocket so I may grab it when I wouldn't bother with a .45. It'd be
>>a fatally poor choice for a gunfight
>
>Bingo.
>
>So if you carry a rabbits foot and hope/pray, given your lack of
>external threat...you should be perfectly safe, correct? So why bother
>carrying?
Bingo. I usually don't. No rabbit's foot required, just threat
assessment. YMMV.
>Im a bit nonplussed because of people carrying a "fatally poor choice
>for a gunfight" because they may become involved in a gunfight at some
>time in their lives.
I explained that I don't expect to ever be involved in a gunfight as a
senior civilian.
>There are other choices of similar size in more appropriate
>calibers..which is why Im fascinated by folks claiming that the "fatally
>poor choice" they made is better than those other more appropriate
>calibers.
Appropriate? If "appropriate" means maximum stop/drop power you
should be armed with a rifle or shotgun. Perhaps you are, and your
situation may require that. To me, "appropriate" means suitable for
my circumstances which is one step up from a can of pepper spray.
>Its well known that there are pocket sized 9mm Paras, .40s, 45s, 357s
>and so forth that are about the same size as the average .380.
I have a Para LDA in 9mmp and a Colt Officer's .45. Both are somewhat
bulkier than my .380 so at present I'm not motivated to carry either.
If that changes, they're available to me and I'm skilled with them.
pyotr filipivich
on or about Mon, 21 Dec 2009 05:56:54 -0800 did write/type or cause to
I hope not. It was the first to come to mind - plastic and bad
guys. I mean, it wasn't like some of the other Astroturf, prefabbed
bands, usually aimed at tweeners and early teens.
Oh dear, I just realized. The Pre-fab Four (and their latest
variants) were a marketing strategy aimed at teenagers; the Plastic
Ono Band was aimed at "adults". Oh dear Lord in heaven, have mercy on
us all ...
> -- I'm in touch with my Inner Curmudgeon. --
I got in touch with my feminine side. She slapped me, and got an
restraining order.
pyotr
pyotr filipivich
Dec 2009 13:52:05 -0700 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
>No pertinent <snorf> articles on Fudd or Dawg, so you expirts are free
>to argue over which weapons they favored and if they'd be good for
>shark shooting. Oh, and don't forget to whine about the i in expirt,
>since I'd hate to think that I overrode the spellchecker for nothing.
>
>Wayne
Wane old sock, if you are going to base your personal defense
choices on those made by a character in a novel, or movie, then why
limit yourself?
What's wrong with Elmer Fudd's choice of firearms? Aside from the
fact that it certainly seemed never to be lethal. Even when he'd
"Dick Cheney" ol Daffy at point _blank range_, it rarely did more than
scorch his feathers! Oh, and temporarily re arraigned his face.
OT3H, I pack a Browning High Power because Anita Blake does. Or
is it that I like Anita Blake because she packs a Browning in the
novels? With hollow point silver bullets (with hollow points filled
with Holy Water and capped with wax so they don't leak out. Absolutely
devastating against Vampires and other monsters, usually a one shot
kill, even against old vampires. Oh, and works well on regular bad
guys, although those seem less of a hazard, frequency wise.)
pyotr filipivich
NET> on or about Sun, 20 Dec 2009 20:30:54 -0500 did write/type or
cause to appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
Question which comes to mind. How much of the current concern
something with a Real Gun, with DRT (Dropped right there) capability,
is in part because of the excellence of modern trauma centers? That
is to say, now a days people are surviving bullet wounds which would
have killed them in a previous era - say the 1960's.
Before WW2, and anti-biotics, how many people were concerned about
the dire effects of even a "small" caliber weapon - say a .25 - that
they could be scared off by someone with one? Or that a 25 caliber
self-loading pistol, could put more holes in one, which would increase
the damage and the pain suffered by the assailant?
Hmmm, I doubt that really came into consideration. Maybe it is
that we read more often of people not being stopped after being shot
with by "smaller" caliber firearms.
pyotr filipivich
Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:10:54 -0600 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
>>
>>
>> should one carry an Almost Gun in lew of a real one?????
>>
>> Thats like having a Chiwawa as a guard dog rather than a german shepard.
>>
>> Yes....the TacoBell dog will make noise and perhaps even attack the bad
>> guy, but the chances of him stopping a determined attacker immediately
>> is pretty slim, no?
>>
>> Gunner
>>
>
>It's just because every time I stuff my .50 in my pocket,
>the girls won't leave me alone!
Awww, poor baby.
B-)
tschus
pyotr
David R.Birch
>> Plastic Ono Band?
>
> Pete, did you just utter the musical equivalent of Godwin's Law with
> that last line?
I'm reminded of a review I read some 40 years ago of "Live Peace in
Toronto" by POB. The album consisted of one side of live music by the
band and another side of Yoko Ono doing whatever it is that she does.
The reviewer had received an advance pressing with one side on each of
two discs. He reviewed it as a four sided album, with two of the Yoko
Ono sides being better than the third.
David
David R.Birch
>> You still don't get the point that the reason such small guns are used
>> is that they are, in many cases, the only concealed option available.
>> No one prefers a .25 over a .45 if the .45 can be concealed, often it
>> can't.
>>
>> David
>
> An appropriate firearm sufficent to the task cannot be concealed? Then
> why would anyone dress in such a fashion?
>
> Speedos and a towel do make it a bit hard to carry. But anything
> else...they simply need to know how to dress themselves.
Shorts and a t-shirt are my usual summer leisure attire. No
concealment for anything larger than a P3AT unless I make the pistol
hard to get to quickly.
David
Gunner Asch
Frankly...its not a question one way or another if the recipient of ones
shots dies...but it is VERY important that he stops whatever behavior
you are shooting him for...RIGHT NOW.
In fact..with todays medicines..only about 20% of all shot with a
handgun, expire. That means 80% of all recepients survive being shot.
However..that means little..as that happens long after he has attacked
you and its up to YOU to prevent being harmed or killed. Now if you
shoot him and he still cuts off your head, or shoots you in the heart or
spine..then crawls off and lays down and waits for the ambulence...it
means you may have caused him to be arrested...but you will still be
dead. And thats what we are trying to prevent.
Ive been shot 3 times. Ive been blown up with grenades and artillery and
in one case..a mine used as a booby trap. Ive been bayoneted. And in
each case, but for one...I was able to continue the fray until it was
over. Shrug. Thats called being motivated and not wanting to die.
I dont plan on dying for many many years yet. And I will do whatever
necessary to prevent having another kill me. From driving carefully and
with all 4 eyes open, to wearing my seatbelts, to carrying a suffiecent
caliber to finish a fire fight if necessary..and keeping up the skills
to place my shots properly in such an action.
Shrug...one does what one does either out of stupidity, complacency or
by keeping up a vested interest in the Real World and its dangers, and
learning do do what one can to maximize ones survivability.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>Gunner Asch wrote:
Do you wear a T-shirt 2 sizes too large and wear it outside your shorts?
I do..and carry a AMT .45 DAO daily, along with a spare magazine and
several "Pocket" knives. And a flashlight etc etc etc
And Ive not been "printed" yet.
David R.Birch
>> Shorts and a t-shirt are my usual summer leisure attire. No
>> concealment for anything larger than a P3AT unless I make the pistol
>> hard to get to quickly.
>>
>> David
>
> Do you wear a T-shirt 2 sizes too large and wear it outside your shorts?
Nope, nor do I want to.
>
> I do..and carry a AMT .45 DAO daily, along with a spare magazine and
> several "Pocket" knives. And a flashlight etc etc etc
>
> And Ive not been "printed" yet.
The problem is, I live in Wisconsin and our governor recognizes that
the citizens of his state are less trustworthy and responsible than
those of 48 other states, so we have no concealed carry.
He's announced that he's not running in the next election.
David
Bill McKee
"rangerssuck" <range...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:266f3309-9a53-448c...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
Lots of people shot outside the military. Using the 3S method. Shoot,
Shovel, Shutup.
Ed Huntress
"Bill McKee" <bmckee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:P8KdnU3jjLOv363W...@earthlink.com...
Do you know these people? Are you suggesting that Gunner has been doing
that? How many bodies do you think he's buried on his back 40? <ggg>
--
Ed Huntress
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>Gunner Asch wrote:
>
>>> Shorts and a t-shirt are my usual summer leisure attire. No
>>> concealment for anything larger than a P3AT unless I make the pistol
>>> hard to get to quickly.
>>>
>>> David
>>
>> Do you wear a T-shirt 2 sizes too large and wear it outside your shorts?
>
>Nope, nor do I want to.
Then you are going to do what? Keep carrying a poodle shooter in some
odd fashion statement?
>>
>> I do..and carry a AMT .45 DAO daily, along with a spare magazine and
>> several "Pocket" knives. And a flashlight etc etc etc
>>
>> And Ive not been "printed" yet.
>
>The problem is, I live in Wisconsin and our governor recognizes that
>the citizens of his state are less trustworthy and responsible than
>those of 48 other states, so we have no concealed carry.
>
>He's announced that he's not running in the next election.
>
>David
So you cant carry legally, concealed?
Then you are utterly screwed then, arent you? And probably a felon if
you bother to carry.
<G>
Gunner Asch
And why would I need to provide "proof" of unfortunate circumstances
that Id not wish on my worst detractor?
You either believe, or you do not. Shrug..its not my problem either
way. Im not trying to cash in on unfortunate circumstances. On the
other hand..it would appear you are trying in some odd fashion..to cash
in on me. Im curious..what is the prize you are aiming for?
Expecting someone to send you a case of "Give a shit"?
Feel free to call Fresno Co. Sheriffs Department and see if they will
bother rooting around and sending you a copy of my service records.
You do have my complete and correct name, right?
Maybe my CO will come out of retirement and testify about my military
adventures?..hummm...no..come to think of it..he died a couple years
ago. Perhaps someone else?
>
>Lots of people shot outside the military. Using the 3S method. Shoot,
>Shovel, Shutup.
Indeed. The desert is filled with unfortunate circumstances. They turn
up now and then.
Bill McKee
"Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b304f39$0$5001$607e...@cv.net...
Nope, just that there a lot of people shot who never show up in a public
record. And Gunner lives in an area with lots of open land. Probably not
stupid enough to bury close by.
Ed Huntress
So he buries them far away, eh? <g>
Sometimes the nuttiness of these discussions is just too much to let them
pass by without a comment, Bill. Ranger suggests that Gunner probably hasn't
killed people outside of his military experience, and you're responding that
there's reason to believe that isn't true, because Gunner lives in a place
where it would be easy to bury his kills.
This one is about as nutty as they get. Carry on.
--
Ed Huntress
pyotr filipivich
Like I said, it was a thought. And after a nights sleep, it
probably has as much applicability to the "real world" as any other
academic pondering. I might be able to get a grant to study the
matter, but that is about as far as it would go. It makes a good blue
sky subject to mull over drinks. Besides, I realize that few
malefactors are going to be considering the availability or lack there
off, of medical treatment, when they embark on an evenings career.
Even in 1909, they had access to the best available medical care in
the world available, so that perception hasn't really changed.
Because I also recall reading Malcolm X's bio, where he talked
about carrying 38 revolvers for personal use, but a big 45 for ... ah,
"work." People look down that big bore - and they get very
cooperative.
And it wasn't like the old Colt revolvers were tiny bullets, 44
and 38 and 36s.
Me? I don't want to have to find out. So I carry hollow points
in both the Browning and the snub nosed 38 special. I know, should
have gotten the snubby in 357 snubby (more ammo choices), but ... I
also figure it hurts more to get hit by either of those, than missed
by a 44 mag.
tschus
pyotr
Don Foreman
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Nah. I'd agree with you there, but it reinforces that any gun is
>>better than no gun. How much gun you carry or whether you carry at
>>all is a personal choice and a matter of how much risk you're likely
>>to face.
>
>
> Question which comes to mind. How much of the current concern
>something with a Real Gun, with DRT (Dropped right there) capability,
>is in part because of the excellence of modern trauma centers? That
>is to say, now a days people are surviving bullet wounds which would
>have killed them in a previous era - say the 1960's.
> Before WW2, and anti-biotics, how many people were concerned about
>the dire effects of even a "small" caliber weapon - say a .25 - that
>they could be scared off by someone with one? Or that a 25 caliber
>self-loading pistol, could put more holes in one, which would increase
>the damage and the pain suffered by the assailant?
>
> Hmmm, I doubt that really came into consideration. Maybe it is
>that we read more often of people not being stopped after being shot
>with by "smaller" caliber firearms.
>-
>pyotr filipivich
Many studies have been done about "stopping power" and there is a
substantial range of expert opinion on the subject. Much of that is
"one shot drop" because many cops are amazingly lousy shots. I see
that at the range. A few are very good but most are mediocre to poor.
The qual test for many departments is a silhouette target half the
size of Delaware at 21 feet, 70% is passing.
Experts differ on the question of "how much is enough", and even the
FBI and U.S. military change their minds from time to time. The
current standard U.S. military sidearm fires 9mm bullets. The little
.380ACP fires slightly lighter 9mm bullets at slightly lower velocity.
Most recognized authorities regard .380ACP as a viable self-defense
round. It's at the bottom of the list, but it does make the list.
I'm talking grayhair civilian here, not combat soldier or LEO.
Most law enforcement in the U.S. has gone from 9mmp to .40S&W which
uses a 10mm bullet. Long story there, some bureaucratic bullshit by
the FBI. Google it if you're interested. Google on 10mm FBI or
.40S&W.
The .380ACP shoots a lighter bullet at lower velocity so it achieves
less penetration. Penetration to vital organs is necessary to stop
and drop. At very close range with effective ammo, however, it has
enough pen to be as effective as heavier calibers and
recently-developed hollow-point ammo by Hornady has been shown to
penetrate several layers of clothing without loss of efficacy in
either penetration depth or wound-channel damage.
The U.S. Army went to .45ACP when the lesser calibers then in use
failed to stop Maori warriors wrapped in rope and stoked on drugs.
John Moses Browning designed a pistol and a round in response to this
request. .45ACP became the standard sidearm for many years until
replaced by 9mmp about 1983. We civilian seniors hardly ever do
combat with Maori warriors. John Moses Browning also designed the
.380ACP round.
Enough is enough, more doesn't help. No handgun ammo blasts a hit
target over the balcony rail as seen on TV. If it did it'd also knock
the shooter flat on her arse. When DRT is accomplished it is because
the hit damages or destroys something that results in immediate
incapacitation: brain, spine, neck or heart. Even a .22 rimfire can
do that at close range. In fact, .22 rimfire is preferred by
assassins for up-close wet work. It's quiet and instantly effective
if administered correctly.
The needs and lives of most civilians are quite different from those
of combat soldiers and law enforcement officers. Our threat scenarios
can be markedly different.
If one must frequent areas and neighborhoods where armed assaults are
common then carrying substantial firepower would seem advisable. A
shopkeeper subject to armed robbery would be well advised to have
weapons of substantial caliber at hand.
For most of us civilians who can and do avoid going in harm's way, the
most likely threats are opportunistic punk predators and home
invasions. Large caliber is no inconvenience for home defense because
it need not be carried or concealed. It might include a short 12-gage
shotgun.
Punk predators look for easy prey. The potential of gettting shot by
anything will deter such mutts to seek easier prey. There are stats on
this: 90% of civilian armed encounters result in no shots fired. DRT
is rarely an issue for SD aside from home invasion. Not shooting is
by far the preferable course if possible because shooting will very
probably create a very expensive legal nightmare. Gunner's golden on
this, blood and turnips sort of thing. I'm more vulnerable. Punks
have rellies who will be found by greedy shyster lawyers.
Gunner Asch
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
The 38 Special, with a decent bullet design..is a good low end
antipersonal round. Perferably a +P loading..but...shrug...one or more
125gr jhp at 825fps will tend to take the wind out of most sails....
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/
I often carry a Detectives Special, loaded up with Nyclads...which I
understand are back in production again.
For many years..I simply handloaded Hollow based wadcutters turned
backwards and loaded them to come out the end of the barrel at about
650fps. They worked very well on test media such as coyotes, small hogs
and deer.
The 44 magnum is at the far far end of the "suitable" range for a self
defense round. The fact of the matter is..most people are incapable of
shooting it well, quickly and double action, the weapon itself tends to
be rather massive..generally way to big to carry concealed and over
penetration is a serious concern. The lighter loaded 44 Special
however..is a top manstopper and is easily controlled and over
penetration is much less a concern.
So is the superb .41 Magnum, but loaded down to 44 Special ballistics.
Designed to be a police cartridge..it was originally loaded quite
warm..making it equal to or superior to the 44 magnum...but..shrug..the
average cop, male or female wasnt able to take the time to master this
super cartridge...so it fell by the wayside in law enforcement. I have
several..shrug..and its my favorite General Purpose/Combat
round...following only the .45 ACP for its Combat Round superiority.
The Mod 57 is a marvelous revolver and is my choice for a field handgun,
with the Mod 586 following a distant 2nd. Virtually all of my DA
revolvers sport 4" barrels, with only a few exceptions. My Mod 17s are
all 6" or longer. The various snubbies are of course..shorter.
Shrug...off-duty weapons...can be a bit short, as ranges may be
close..and if one has a cartridge suitable to the task...can do the job
well. Hunting and field weapons..can have longer barrels that dont need
to be concealed..and those longer barrels simply add to the
effectiveness of a decent cartridge out in the field.
There are minimum and maximum cartridges for self defense. I consider
the 380 to be outside the Minimum range. I consider the 44 Mag to be
outside the Maximum range.
Though its far far better to have Almost Too Much cartridge..than to
have Almost Enough cartridge.....
Shrug. And yes..I do own a number of smaller cartridge arms..including
380s....<G> One of my favorite designs is the old Savage 1907..in 380.
Not a screw in the entire weapon. Shoots well and accurately enough.
But Id not carry one except in the ultimate last resort as a side arm.
Not enough ballistics for use on angry targets.
Gunner Asch
However...when the rubber meets the road...when its time to shoot or
die..the threat scenario is the same. Actually worse from the civies
point of view..as he isnt wearing body armor. So you shoot the biggest,
meanist and fastest stopping bullet you can field. You may only get one
hit on the bad guy..no matter how many rounds you fire..and that round
HAS to stop the bad guy. Period. End Program. Full Stop.
EnditEnditEndit.
True indeed..that most civilian shooters who carry..are far far better
shots than most cops, and virtually all perps. But it all winds up the
same..some son of a bitch is trying to kill you or yours..and you had
best be able to dump him NOW. You dont have the luxury of having
partners, a squad around you, or body armor and cover. You have to STOP
the bad guy. If he dies..he dies. But he must be Stopped NOW.
>
>If one must frequent areas and neighborhoods where armed assaults are
>common then carrying substantial firepower would seem advisable. A
>shopkeeper subject to armed robbery would be well advised to have
>weapons of substantial caliber at hand.
>
Any attack may turn into a shooting. No matter if you are wearing a
badge, camo or a suit. And at that point..it all breaks down to the
same in all cases...shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW.
No exceptions. No matter if 90% of all attacks dont turn into a
shooting...10% of them WILL..and if you figure that surviving 9 out of
10 attacks is ok odds....so be it.
Personally...I want to survive 100% of attacks...a task Ive managed so
far to do.
Most cops draw their weapons a lot..but historically..damned few of them
actually have to shoot to stop or defend. Damned few. Yet they carry
calibers suitable to stopping the bad guys. Unfortunately far too many
cops cant shoot for shit. Ive shot competition against them. Hell..Ive
shot Pistols versus Bows and Arrow charity matches..and kicked their
asses with bows. Something fairly common in the midwest btw.
>For most of us civilians who can and do avoid going in harm's way, the
>most likely threats are opportunistic punk predators and home
>invasions. Large caliber is no inconvenience for home defense because
>it need not be carried or concealed. It might include a short 12-gage
>shotgun.
>
A 12ga is probably the ultimate best self defense cartridge for short
range defense. However...its bulky, doesnt carry very well and is hard
to tuck under ones t-shirt.
A load of #4 shot at residential ranges is virtually an instant stop
sign with no one running it. #4 buck is best of all..but it does carry a
bit farther through sheet rock and so forth.
>Punk predators look for easy prey. The potential of gettting shot by
>anything will deter such mutts to seek easier prey. There are stats on
>this: 90% of civilian armed encounters result in no shots fired. DRT
>is rarely an issue for SD aside from home invasion. Not shooting is
>by far the preferable course if possible because shooting will very
>probably create a very expensive legal nightmare. Gunner's golden on
>this, blood and turnips sort of thing. I'm more vulnerable. Punks
>have rellies who will be found by greedy shyster lawyers.
All true. However..when its time to shoot..there is no way out...its
far far better to stop the bad guy NOW..then try to hit him enough times
that he loses interest in doing whatever it is that made you shoot him
in the first place.
The stories of those who shot the bad guy..poorly..are fairly
common..can be found on the net with a little research..and often
involve the shooter dying before the bad guy..or being wounded by knife,
club, gun, etc etc even after shooting the bad guy.
Shrug..as Ive repeatedly said...do as you choose. But keep in mind..that
when you HAVE to shoot someone...its best to be doing it with something
that will stop the guy rather than simply wound him and not stop him.
Its like someone driving around with no spare tire. Chances of you
getting a flat are rare. But when the rubber goes Bang...you damned well
better have something more than a can of fix a flat..like a decent
spare, filled with air. Having a little air in a bald spare...not
going to get you home.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/OpSD/
http://gunowners.org/sk0205.htm
http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/2009/12/page/2/
Lots more...
wmbjk...@citlink.net
... and that's just the nuttiness they're willing to make public. I
know similar kooks, and the stuff they come up with off the record is
even funnier. Have I told the story of the guy who suggested that I
loan him money to buy a mobile home so that we could share a fortune
once we dug up the gold that the deceased owner had buried underneath?
The only um, fascinating story from that guy that I ever saw verified
was a news clipping about a giant traffic jam he'd caused by wedging a
semi under a low bridge. He was so proud that his name was in the
paper!
Wayne
Ed Huntress
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:jhj1j5l5c4v3ij5qa...@4ax.com...
There's his 15 minutes of fame. <g>
--
Ed Huntress
rangerssuck
> "Bill McKee" <bmckeespam...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Fp6dnfhZTo1--K3W...@earthlink.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> >news:4b304f39$0$5001$607e...@cv.net...
>
> >> "Bill McKee" <bmckeespam...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> >>news:P8KdnU3jjLOv363W...@earthlink.com...
>
> >>> "rangerssuck" <rangerss...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Calling this "nutty" is an insult to nuts. And if it's tall tales I
want, I'll listen to Garrison Keillor.
Bill McKee
I did not even insinuate that Gunner buried his kills, if he killed at all.
I was pointing out the fact that lots of those that decease before their
time, do not show up in a police report as deceased. They may show up as a
missing person. Jimmy Hoffa is a prime example. Every once in a while
human bones show up in the wilds. Especially here in the west. Some are
from a long time ago, and is most likely an Indian burial, and then someone
finds are a newer set of bones.
Gunner Asch
Indeed. Ive never specifically claimed to have terminated anyone
outside of the military. Shrug... That was war...afterwards as a cop,
and then as a civilian...that was unfortunate. Nothing Im proud
of..just something I was forced to do. Staying alive.
I dont think about killing much. And Ive got a pretty good outlook on
any such tasks that I may have needed to do. Though..a couple times a
year..usually in the spring...I have been known to wake up screaming
..usually about 4am...and then stay awake for a day or two.
But then..thats all part of the horror of war and violence in general.
Which is why I pray that most all of you folks never find the need to
walk along that road..ever.
But...shrug..such things can and do come up on occasion..like hitting a
deer or having a blowout on the freeway. Not everyone ..but enough to
hope that each and everyone of you has taken steps to stay alive.
Its like having working smoke detectors and fire extinguishers around
the homestead. One hopes and prays they never become needed..but that if
they do..they (and you) work properly.
Its not the odds...its the stakes.
pyotr filipivich
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
>close..and if one has a cartridge suitable to the task...can do the job
>well. Hunting and field weapons..can have longer barrels that dont need
>to be concealed..and those longer barrels simply add to the
>effectiveness of a decent cartridge out in the field.
>
>There are minimum and maximum cartridges for self defense. I consider
>the 380 to be outside the Minimum range. I consider the 44 Mag to be
>outside the Maximum range.
>
>Though its far far better to have Almost Too Much cartridge..than to
>have Almost Enough cartridge.....
Ayup. My brother's comment was he recognized the onset of Dreaded
Middle Age as when he couldn't hold the 1911 on target for rapid fire,
and might have to downsize to a 9mm. Then again, he reasoned, maybe I
should shoot more often and keep my wrists strong.
>
>Shrug. And yes..I do own a number of smaller cartridge arms..including
>380s....<G> One of my favorite designs is the old Savage 1907..in 380.
>Not a screw in the entire weapon. Shoots well and accurately enough.
>But Id not carry one except in the ultimate last resort as a side arm.
>Not enough ballistics for use on angry targets.
There is a part of me that likes the whole "shark stick" concept-
a twelve gauge cartridge on a stick: "poke and bang". Of course, it
does require you to get within arms length of the target. But you do
have to admit - it does solve the problem of over penetration and
backstops. B-)
pyotr filipivich
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
>>most likely threats are opportunistic punk predators and home
>>invasions. Large caliber is no inconvenience for home defense because
>>it need not be carried or concealed. It might include a short 12-gage
>>shotgun.
>>
>
>A 12ga is probably the ultimate best self defense cartridge for short
>range defense. However...its bulky, doesnt carry very well and is hard
>to tuck under ones t-shirt.
>A load of #4 shot at residential ranges is virtually an instant stop
>sign with no one running it. #4 buck is best of all..but it does carry a
>bit farther through sheet rock and so forth.
I have too many bookshelves, so I'm not worried about over
penetration. But I want all those books, so buck is out.
I'll have to make do with the particle beamer.
David R.Birch
> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:12:33 -0600, "David R.Birch" <dbi...@wi.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Gunner Asch wrote:
>>
>>>> Shorts and a t-shirt are my usual summer leisure attire. No
>>>> concealment for anything larger than a P3AT unless I make the pistol
>>>> hard to get to quickly.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>> Do you wear a T-shirt 2 sizes too large and wear it outside your shorts?
>> Nope, nor do I want to.
>
> Then you are going to do what? Keep carrying a poodle shooter in some
> odd fashion statement?
Beats being a dedicated follower of Gunner fashion.
>>> I do..and carry a AMT .45 DAO daily, along with a spare magazine and
>>> several "Pocket" knives. And a flashlight etc etc etc
>>>
>>> And Ive not been "printed" yet.
>> The problem is, I live in Wisconsin and our governor recognizes that
>> the citizens of his state are less trustworthy and responsible than
>> those of 48 other states, so we have no concealed carry.
>>
>> He's announced that he's not running in the next election.
>>
>> David
>
> So you cant carry legally, concealed?
>
> Then you are utterly screwed then, arent you?
Could be worse. F'rinstance, I could be you.
> And probably a felon if you bother to carry.
Nope, CCW only a misdemeanor here, and then only if you get caught, of
course.
David
Ed Huntress
Well, it was a response to Ranger's claim that it's likely that Gunner is
pretty loose and vague about when and where he's killed people, and that
it's likely he would have been found out if they actually were killings he
comitted after he was out of the military.
Responding that you can't tell, because Gunner lives in a place where he
could hide the bodies, is like a punchline from the theater of the absurd.
It was just funny, and I was having some fun with what you were saying.
> They may show up as a missing person. Jimmy Hoffa is a prime example.
> Every once in a while human bones show up in the wilds. Especially here
> in the west. Some are from a long time ago, and is most likely an Indian
> burial, and then someone finds are a newer set of bones.
You never know. You do know that Gunner is part Indian, right? Maybe that's
it. d8-)
--
Ed Huntress
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>Gunner Asch wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:12:33 -0600, "David R.Birch" <dbi...@wi.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Shorts and a t-shirt are my usual summer leisure attire. No
>>>>> concealment for anything larger than a P3AT unless I make the pistol
>>>>> hard to get to quickly.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>> Do you wear a T-shirt 2 sizes too large and wear it outside your shorts?
>>> Nope, nor do I want to.
>>
>> Then you are going to do what? Keep carrying a poodle shooter in some
>> odd fashion statement?
>
>Beats being a dedicated follower of Gunner fashion.
Does it beat being alive?
>
>>>> I do..and carry a AMT .45 DAO daily, along with a spare magazine and
>>>> several "Pocket" knives. And a flashlight etc etc etc
>>>>
>>>> And Ive not been "printed" yet.
>>> The problem is, I live in Wisconsin and our governor recognizes that
>>> the citizens of his state are less trustworthy and responsible than
>>> those of 48 other states, so we have no concealed carry.
>>>
>>> He's announced that he's not running in the next election.
>>>
>>> David
>>
>> So you cant carry legally, concealed?
>>
>> Then you are utterly screwed then, arent you?
>
>Could be worse. F'rinstance, I could be you.
Even worse..I could be in your shoes. Shrug.
Im still alive after some serious shit over the years. Seems my way
works...at least for me. Shrug again.
>
>> And probably a felon if you bother to carry.
>
>Nope, CCW only a misdemeanor here, and then only if you get caught, of
>course.
>
>David
Cool!
Keep up the good work.
Bill McKee
Funny thing about the part indian. My aunt was part Cherokee. And after my
cousin put down part American Indian on his paper work, he went swiftly up
to high positions in a police dept. He said it was amazing how that changed
his profile.
Gunner Asch
Thats one of the pities about being self employed. I cant use my native
american heritage to further myself very much within my company. Damned
bigots!!
Maybe after the first of the year..if things remain in the shitter..Ill
apply for a Government job and indicate that Im native American in
heritage. Maybe they will make me governor or something.
Don Foreman
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>>
>>The needs and lives of most civilians are quite different from those
>>of combat soldiers and law enforcement officers. Our threat scenarios
>>can be markedly different.
>
>However...when the rubber meets the road...when its time to shoot or
>die..the threat scenario is the same.
Bingo, Gunner, therein lies the key difference in our viewpoints. I
understand shoot-or-die situations, and I don't have or want any in my
civilian dotage. I regard the likelihood of my encountering a
shoot-or-die situation as far too low to tolerate the inconvenience of
packing a .45 (or even a .380) routinely.
>Any attack may turn into a shooting. No matter if you are wearing a
>badge, camo or a suit. And at that point..it all breaks down to the
>same in all cases...shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW.
>No exceptions. No matter if 90% of all attacks dont turn into a
>shooting...10% of them WILL..and if you figure that surviving 9 out of
>10 attacks is ok odds....so be it.
So any action you perceive as an attack *will* result in a shooting.
That strategy is not acceptable or applicable to me.
>Personally...I want to survive 100% of attacks...a task Ive managed so
>far to do.
I obviously have too, probably because I don't get attacked much.
>
>Most cops draw their weapons a lot..but historically..damned few of them
>actually have to shoot to stop or defend. Damned few.
To my point. This even though they routinely confront the baddest of
the bad. They go looking for trouble. It's their job. So mere
presentation of an arm clearly does have significant deterrent value
in many or most situations involving punks and minor criminals. The
caliber of shots not fired doesn't matter.
>A 12ga is probably the ultimate best self defense cartridge for short
>range defense. However...its bulky, doesnt carry very well and is hard
>to tuck under ones t-shirt.
But a suitable carry garment for a short 12ga could certainly be
devised.
You wrote: "So you shoot the biggest, meanist and fastest stopping
bullet you can field." I say I as a senior civilian gent prefer to
pack light if at all, you say you don't want to pack a short 12-gage.
Looks like we both make compromises we judge as suitable to our
circumstances.
>All true. However..when its time to shoot..there is no way out...its
>far far better to stop the bad guy NOW..then try to hit him enough times
>that he loses interest in doing whatever it is that made you shoot him
>in the first place.
As said before, the likelihood of having a time to shoot with no way
out is so small for this senior gent out walking about that I consider
a carry, if and when I carry, as a more effective deterrent than
pepper spray.
We are appropriately equipped for home defense and we will drop any
home invaders without hesitation or regard for decor. I strongly
doubt that will ever happpen.
Perhaps we differ in perspective in that your approach to life is as a
warrior while my approach is as a gentle senior gent because that's
what I am. Color me wuss if you will, won't hurt my feelings a bit.
I haven't been a warrior since 1966.
And by the way, I can put a full mag of .380 well into COM in an
advancing target that moves from 21 feet to hit-my-nose in under 2
seconds. That's about half a load of #4 buck which is only .25
caliber. That was with the Walther PPK. I can also do and have done
that with an XD in .40 S&W and with a Colt 1911 Officer's in .45ACP.
I haven't tried that yet with Nana Mary's "graduation gift", her Sig
P232. We both shoot it noticably better than the PPK. She is
amazingly good with her little Sig. I'd sell the PPK if we needed the
money, but we don't yet and we like it because it's a nicely-crafted
little pistol of classic design and friends we treat to range
experiences enjoy the James Bond cachet.
The Sig cost about half again the price of the PPK. It was worth it.
The design is remarkably similar but the performance in Mar's hand is
indisputable and I also shoot it respectably on good days. We are
old farts, some days are better than others. We can each and both
outshoot about any cop in town on our worst days, but life and age do
lurch on like expiring leaks of urine and blood.
cavelamb
When I lived on the airport (15 miles from town) I carried
my .380 daily. Everywhere.
I have a clip on holster on my belt.
Didn't bother to even try to conceal it.
But that was because of the odd critters that one sometimes
encounters in rural Texas.
Dogs (in packs), skunks, etc.
Lots of rabies running around out there.
But I never shot anything with the pistol.
Shot a few skunks with the .22 rifle.
From WAY back!
But then, I guess that's not the kind of encounter city guys
are looking for...
Gunner Asch
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>>
>>However...when the rubber meets the road...when its time to shoot or
>>die..the threat scenario is the same.
>
>Bingo, Gunner, therein lies the key difference in our viewpoints. I
>understand shoot-or-die situations, and I don't have or want any in my
>civilian dotage. I regard the likelihood of my encountering a
>shoot-or-die situation as far too low to tolerate the inconvenience of
>packing a .45 (or even a .380) routinely.
Indeed.
However...what you want..or dont want..really really has little meaning
in the grand scheme of things.
I want a million dollars. I dont want to have had heart surgery.
Shrug..seems like Im wishing wrong two times in a row.
As I said..carry what you wish.
Just remember..you can only use what you brung...and if you didnt bring
enough...there are no time outs while you go home and get something
better.
If you consider your personal firearm to be simply a rabbits foot,
rather than a piece of ordnance to defend your life..all the power to
you.
I take a much more realisitic approach to life and death. Ive seen more
than my share of each over the years..and understand thats its far far
closer than we might wish.
Shrug...good luck and I wish you the best, and I do consider you a great
friend, and I hope you pass away in your sleep at the age of 150 or
more, out of boredom, rather than by the hand of another.
Just out of curiosity though..do you wear seat belts while driving..and
do you have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers around the homestead?
And why or why not?
Gunner Asch
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>>Any attack may turn into a shooting. No matter if you are wearing a
>>badge, camo or a suit. And at that point..it all breaks down to the
>>same in all cases...shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW.
>>No exceptions. No matter if 90% of all attacks dont turn into a
>>shooting...10% of them WILL..and if you figure that surviving 9 out of
>>10 attacks is ok odds....so be it.
>
>So any action you perceive as an attack *will* result in a shooting.
>That strategy is not acceptable or applicable to me.
I noticed that you changed May into "will" for some reason.
Was there some reason for that?
Did you also have a problem with shooting to STOP the attacker if
necessary?
Interesting.......
<G>
Gunner Asch
wrote:
"Looking for" is a rather poor choice of terms.
"Trying to survive" would be more accurate.
Ed Huntress
Yeah, that can help out with the "goals positions" count at HQ. My ancestors
were Indian killers in the French and Indian Wars. I haven't tried putting
that on a job application, but, as they say, you never know. d8-)
--
Ed Huntress
rangerssuck
> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:47 -0600, Don Foreman
>
I don't know where all you guys live, but I'm in Northern New Jersey,
in a town that is racially mixed and has a relatively high crime rate.
I go for long walks in the woods. I routinely travel to see customers
in areas that many would consider "bad" or "scary" (google Paterson,
NJ or East New York, NY). I have NEVER felt that I would be safer if I
was carrying a weapon, and I have never been attacked, either. Not
nine out of ten times, more like a thousand out of a thousand times.
Maybe I'm just lucky, Or maybe, unlike Gunner, I don't welcome the
idea of killing others, so I don't go looking for trouble.
And I wonder if Mr Gunner, who carries the biggest gun to protect
himself from the baddest attackers, has stopped smoking, something
that would have a much more direct affect on his lifespan than
carrying an artillery piece.
Don Foreman
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:47 -0600, Don Foreman
><dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>>Any attack may turn into a shooting. No matter if you are wearing a
>>>badge, camo or a suit. And at that point..it all breaks down to the
>>>same in all cases...shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW.
>>>No exceptions. No matter if 90% of all attacks dont turn into a
>>>shooting...10% of them WILL..and if you figure that surviving 9 out of
>>>10 attacks is ok odds....so be it.
>>
>>So any action you perceive as an attack *will* result in a shooting.
>>That strategy is not acceptable or applicable to me.
>
>
>I noticed that you changed May into "will" for some reason.
>
>Was there some reason for that?
"Shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW" sounds like a shooting to
me.
>
>Did you also have a problem with shooting to STOP the attacker if
>necessary?
Not if it's really necessary.
Don Foreman
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:47 -0600, Don Foreman
><dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>However...when the rubber meets the road...when its time to shoot or
>>>die..the threat scenario is the same.
>>
>>Bingo, Gunner, therein lies the key difference in our viewpoints. I
>>understand shoot-or-die situations, and I don't have or want any in my
>>civilian dotage. I regard the likelihood of my encountering a
>>shoot-or-die situation as far too low to tolerate the inconvenience of
>>packing a .45 (or even a .380) routinely.
>
>
>Indeed.
>
>However...what you want..or dont want..really really has little meaning
>in the grand scheme of things.
Don't *have* or want. Very unlikely that I will encounter.
Considerably less mortal risk to me than cigarettes would be if I
still smoked.
>Just remember..you can only use what you brung...and if you didnt bring
>enough...there are no time outs while you go home and get something
>better.
I do understand that. That's exactly why I have the .380: it's
considerably more than nothing, and easy enough to carry that I
occasionally do drop it in my pocket on the way out the door. If it
isn't enough then I'll be out of luck. I'm quite comfortable with
that. I'm confident that it's more than enough for where and how I
live, at least at present. If condx here change then I'll either
modify my approach or move.
>
>I take a much more realisitic approach to life and death.
Perhaps for your situation. Your approach would be unrealistic for me.
>Just out of curiosity though..do you wear seat belts while
driving..and
>do you have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers around the homestead?
I do indeed. However, I don't wear body armor or carry a rifle, gas
mask or first aid kit when out and about.
pyotr filipivich
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
>>
>>cousin put down part American Indian on his paper work, he went swiftly up
>>to high positions in a police dept. He said it was amazing how that changed
>>his profile.
>>
>Thats one of the pities about being self employed. I cant use my native
>american heritage to further myself very much within my company. Damned
>bigots!!
Snerk.. I can't recall who I heard it from first, but they
commented "I work for myself. Which is kind of good, I'm in with the
boss. But on the other hand, when I call in 'sick' I know I'm lying
to me."
>
>Maybe after the first of the year..if things remain in the shitter..Ill
>apply for a Government job and indicate that Im native American in
>heritage. Maybe they will make me governor or something.
Or something. Say, you recon I can claim Native American
Heritage, seeing as how I've ancestors who were here before it there
was a United States?
Hmmm, or I could get a matricular card, which indicated I was a
displaced Apache or other Native American from down near the border
area....
An undocumented immigrant native American. If I put down that I'm
also handicapped, a transponder lesbian of a non-traditional religion,
the Democrats would have to hire me!
pyotr
Gunner Asch
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:28:16 -0800, Gunner Asch
><gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:47 -0600, Don Foreman
>><dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>Any attack may turn into a shooting. No matter if you are wearing a
>>>>badge, camo or a suit. And at that point..it all breaks down to the
>>>>same in all cases...shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW.
>>>>No exceptions. No matter if 90% of all attacks dont turn into a
>>>>shooting...10% of them WILL..and if you figure that surviving 9 out of
>>>>10 attacks is ok odds....so be it.
>>>
>>>So any action you perceive as an attack *will* result in a shooting.
>>>That strategy is not acceptable or applicable to me.
>>
>>
>>I noticed that you changed May into "will" for some reason.
>>
>>Was there some reason for that?
>
>"Shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW" sounds like a shooting to
>me.
Indeed...you left out the part where you changed "....May turn into a
shooting.....And at that point....."
You have some curious blind spots unfortunately.
>>
>>Did you also have a problem with shooting to STOP the attacker if
>>necessary?
>
>Not if it's really necessary.
So you dont think you are able to judge when that comes up?
Gunner Asch
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:26:29 -0800, Gunner Asch
><gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:47 -0600, Don Foreman
>><dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>However...when the rubber meets the road...when its time to shoot or
>>>>die..the threat scenario is the same.
>>>
>>>Bingo, Gunner, therein lies the key difference in our viewpoints. I
>>>understand shoot-or-die situations, and I don't have or want any in my
>>>civilian dotage. I regard the likelihood of my encountering a
>>>shoot-or-die situation as far too low to tolerate the inconvenience of
>>>packing a .45 (or even a .380) routinely.
>>
>>
>>Indeed.
>>
>>However...what you want..or dont want..really really has little meaning
>>in the grand scheme of things.
>
>Don't *have* or want. Very unlikely that I will encounter.
>Considerably less mortal risk to me than cigarettes would be if I
>still smoked.
and I will pray for you that it shall be so.
>
>>Just remember..you can only use what you brung...and if you didnt bring
>>enough...there are no time outs while you go home and get something
>>better.
>
>I do understand that. That's exactly why I have the .380: it's
>considerably more than nothing, and easy enough to carry that I
>occasionally do drop it in my pocket on the way out the door. If it
>isn't enough then I'll be out of luck. I'm quite comfortable with
>that. I'm confident that it's more than enough for where and how I
>live, at least at present. If condx here change then I'll either
>modify my approach or move.
Good for you.
>>
>>I take a much more realisitic approach to life and death.
>
>Perhaps for your situation. Your approach would be unrealistic for me.
>>Just out of curiosity though..do you wear seat belts while
>driving..and
>>do you have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers around the homestead?
>
>I do indeed. However, I don't wear body armor or carry a rifle, gas
>mask or first aid kit when out and about.
Yes and? Did any of those ever come up in conversation? <G> Or are you
just being argumentative?
Now one never expects a traffic accident, or a fire in ones home. And
statistically..few ever happen.
So why bother with them?
<G>
Jim Wilkins
>
> Or something. Say, you recon I can claim Native American
> Heritage, seeing as how I've ancestors who were here before it there
> was a United States?
>
A member of Bering's expedition?
I don't think Yakut or Evenk ancestry counts unless you can prove that
they turned around and went back.
I had a Cherokee great-great grandmother, if that means anything. When
I was young I met her 109-year-old daughter.
jsw
Gunner Asch
A lady friend of mine...ex MASH nurse..wounded and lost a leg. She
became head of Nursing in a major metro hospital in the 80s, after
ponderng a bit and then declaring she was a Crippled Lesbian Transgender
Black. She is of course not black, but rather dark and has a very nice
husband and 3 kids. But it was up to the hospital to prove she wasnt a
Lesbian Transgender Black..and they simply didnt want to. Seems they
wanted someone competent they could put up on a pedistal and meet all
the "criteria" of said description. She is getting ready to retire..and
has become a PA in her own clinic...makes some seriously good money
working for the poor.
So maybe Ill ponder a bit and work up a really good description for
myself.
dca...@krl.org
> If you consider your personal firearm to be simply a rabbits foot,
> rather than a piece of ordnance to defend your life..all the power to
> you.
>
> I take a much more realisitic approach to life and death. Ive seen more
> than my share of each over the years..and understand thats its far far
> closer than we might wish.
>
>
> Gunner
>
If you want to assure that you can defend yourself, you really need to
carry something other than a pistol. A pistol is what you carry when
you think you are not going to need a gun. The army does not issue
pistols to troops to use in battles. The police do not issue pistols
to SWAT teams.
Don's approach is more realistic than yours. He is not expecting to
need a gun. Picking a pistol that he is more likely to carry, makes
sense. The odds that someone will decide to attack Don is extremely
small. The odds that they would attack Don knowing that he has some
sort of pistol is several orders of magnitude smaller.
It is sort of like the two guys walking in the woods and came across a
bear. One of them ran away. The other one stood his ground. Later
the one that stood his ground asked the other one why he ran. "Don't
you know you can't outrun a bear?" And the answer was " I don't have
to out run the bear. I just have to out run you."
Don does not have to be invincible. He just has to be a tougher
prospect for a mugging than the average person.
Dan
Don Foreman
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
The latter, of course! <G>
>
>Now one never expects a traffic accident, or a fire in ones home. And
>statistically..few ever happen.
Statistically speaking: the Fridley Fire Department responded to 2943
calls in 2008. There was 1 murder. I don't know how many traffic
accidents, but it's moot because use of seatbelts is required by law
in MN.
Gunner Asch
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
The fire department was responding to a host of problems besides fire.
Man down, medical, etc.
How many actual fires?
Gunner Asch
>On Dec 23, 8:26�am, Gunner Asch <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>
>> If you consider your personal firearm to be simply a rabbits foot,
>> rather than a piece of ordnance to defend your life..all the power to
>> you.
>>
>> I take a much more realisitic approach to life and death. �Ive seen more
>> than my share of each over the years..and understand thats its far far
>> closer than we might wish.
>>
>>
>> Gunner
>>
>
>If you want to assure that you can defend yourself, you really need to
>carry something other than a pistol. A pistol is what you carry when
>you think you are not going to need a gun. The army does not issue
>pistols to troops to use in battles. The police do not issue pistols
>to SWAT teams.
They dont? Odd..all the swat guys here carry pistols. And M4s
So you going to get an M4? And one should note..they dont carry them
concealed, nor is their Level III body armor concealed. <G>
>
>Don's approach is more realistic than yours. He is not expecting to
>need a gun. Picking a pistol that he is more likely to carry, makes
>sense. The odds that someone will decide to attack Don is extremely
>small. The odds that they would attack Don knowing that he has some
>sort of pistol is several orders of magnitude smaller.
Yet if the worst happens...he will be carrying a gun that really isnt
very effective. The Rubber Meets the Road.
If the car you have parked out front has all bald tires..thats fine
until you actually need to drive to the hospital at high speed.
Care to take the chance that car will never be driven?
<G>
I wont. Nor will I let my fire extinguishers hang on the wall with all
the propellent having leaked out. Someday I may need one. Id really
like it to work at that point.
>
>It is sort of like the two guys walking in the woods and came across a
>bear. One of them ran away. The other one stood his ground. Later
>the one that stood his ground asked the other one why he ran. "Don't
>you know you can't outrun a bear?" And the answer was " I don't have
>to out run the bear. I just have to out run you."
>
>Don does not have to be invincible. He just has to be a tougher
>prospect for a mugging than the average person.
>
> Dan
True indeed. He can shoot the bad guy and then have his throat cut and
the bad guy then crawls off to die.
If it works for you...shrug.
pyotr filipivich
Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:38:52 -0800 (PST) did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>
>> � � � � Or something. � Say, you recon I can claim Native American
>> Heritage, seeing as how I've ancestors who were here before it there
>> was a United States?
>>
>> pyotr
>
>A member of Bering's expedition?
Anglos Saxons. Although there could have been some Norsemen who
moved back.
>
>I don't think Yakut or Evenk ancestry counts unless you can prove that
>they turned around and went back.
>
>I had a Cherokee great-great grandmother, if that means anything. When
>I was young I met her 109-year-old daughter.
tschus
Don Foreman
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:18:10 -0600, Don Foreman
><dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:28:16 -0800, Gunner Asch
>><gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:47 -0600, Don Foreman
>>><dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Any attack may turn into a shooting. No matter if you are wearing a
>>>>>badge, camo or a suit. And at that point..it all breaks down to the
>>>>>same in all cases...shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW.
>>>>>No exceptions. No matter if 90% of all attacks dont turn into a
>>>>>shooting...10% of them WILL..and if you figure that surviving 9 out of
>>>>>10 attacks is ok odds....so be it.
>>>>
>>>>So any action you perceive as an attack *will* result in a shooting.
>>>>That strategy is not acceptable or applicable to me.
>>>
>>>
>>>I noticed that you changed May into "will" for some reason.
>>>
>>>Was there some reason for that?
>>
>>"Shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW" sounds like a shooting to
>>me.
>
>Indeed...you left out the part where you changed "....May turn into a
>shooting.....And at that point....."
>
>You have some curious blind spots unfortunately.
I see how I may have misconstrued what you said. Rather than blame the
"badge, camo or suit" and tone of what followed, I'll own reading you
incorrectly. Upon review, I think your intent was to say that if it
is necessary to shoot, be as sure as possible that the shots will stop
the assailant. I don't dispute that. It's gospel in the military and
law enforcement communities and in the literature. Shot placement
counts more than caliber but caliber and energy are relevant.
Your blind spot seems to be inability to understand or accept what
I've said in several ways about why I carry if and when I carry. One
more time: I am neither a cop nor a sojer. I think it is extremely
unlikely that I shall ever need to fire my carry piece aside from
periodic practice. Its value to me is as a deterrent to dispell a
punk/bully's perception of me as easy prey. In that context, a gun's
a gun regardless of ballistics. See gray hair = easy prey. See muzzle
of gun = ohshit, maybe not, nevermind.
Perhaps you must defend yourself often against combat-proficient or
drug-crazed assailants intent on your demise. I don't. I've not been
attacked with a deadly weapon in 43 years.
If I'm attacked by a drug-crazed armed thug that can absorb 8 rounds
of .380 to COM and face (last two at powder-stipple-on-face range) and
still cut my head off before stopping, perhaps you'll help Mary
dispose of my tools, machinery and any guns she might be willing to
part with. Don't bother hunting the perp, leave that to Mary. I
picked my pony, took my ride and checked out with gunsmoke rather than
hospice in my nostrils and morphine drip in my terminal IV. Life is
far too short to be taken seriously.
Kurt Vonnegut wrote: "we're put on Earth to fart around."
>>>Did you also have a problem with shooting to STOP the attacker if
>>>necessary?
>>
>>Not if it's really necessary.
>
>So you dont think you are able to judge when that comes up?
I think I am, but won't know for sure until and unless it actually
happens. I've never had to make that decision as a civilian. Doubt
that I ever will.
Gunner Asch
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Was there some reason for that?
>>>
>>>"Shoot the son of a bitch and stop him NOW" sounds like a shooting to
>>>me.
>>
>>Indeed...you left out the part where you changed "....May turn into a
>>shooting.....And at that point....."
>>
>>You have some curious blind spots unfortunately.
>
>I see how I may have misconstrued what you said. Rather than blame the
>"badge, camo or suit" and tone of what followed, I'll own reading you
>incorrectly. Upon review, I think your intent was to say that if it
>is necessary to shoot, be as sure as possible that the shots will stop
>the assailant. I don't dispute that. It's gospel in the military and
>law enforcement communities and in the literature. Shot placement
>counts more than caliber but caliber and energy are relevant.
Indeed. thats exactly what I was trying to say. I should mention that
Ive seen far far too many good shot placements that were ultimately
fatal..but didnt stop the perp until after he had done damage or killed
his opponent. Sadly but true.
>
>Your blind spot seems to be inability to understand or accept what
>I've said in several ways about why I carry if and when I carry. One
>more time: I am neither a cop nor a sojer. I think it is extremely
>unlikely that I shall ever need to fire my carry piece aside from
>periodic practice. Its value to me is as a deterrent to dispell a
>punk/bully's perception of me as easy prey. In that context, a gun's
>a gun regardless of ballistics. See gray hair = easy prey. See muzzle
>of gun = ohshit, maybe not, nevermind.
Oh I understand exactly what you are trying to say. But its a world
view that I strongly disagree with. Ive spent significant time playing
games with and discussing the fact that the moment you HAVE to
shoot..having a weapon that is on the far side of marginal..really
doesnt help you a hell of a lot. Cops and sojers wear body armor. You
dont. Which means you have to be even more prepared to deliver a
stopping round than they do. And frankly...waving a 380 around may..may
frighten off some perps..but it wont frighten off all of them. I was a
cop for a number of years. Shrug.
I also have run in...humm.....ah.."rougher circles".... and places then
you have. Shrug..so in the past 30 yrs..Ive had to present a weapon 6
times against armed opponents...as a civilian. Because of my demeanor,
mental and physical attitude..Ive not had to fire a round (that Im
willing to discuss)...but each time..if Id not done what Id done..I or
those I was with, would have been at the least, robbed and harmed, if
not killed.
Observers have shakenly told me that I become someone else..shrug..with
facial and verbal changes that frankly..scared the shit out of them,
along with the bad guys. Broke up with a lady after we were victims of
an attempted robbery by 3 gents..and I responded to their advances. She
was more afraid of the change she saw at the moment of
confrontation..than she was of the bad guys. She of course was a
Leftwinger..extraordinary in bed..but...inexperienced in life on the
street. Nice lady..but a bit...naive.... Shrug. She was later gang
raped and she changed...I taught her to shoot..and she later killed one
of the rapists who had decided to keep her on "the string of fear". A
very good shooting too..and one she is satisfied with. She finally
married a deputy..been married to him for at least 15 yrs..range
master...chuckle...
>
>Perhaps you must defend yourself often against combat-proficient or
>drug-crazed assailants intent on your demise. I don't. I've not been
>attacked with a deadly weapon in 43 years.
Which means nothing. When the time comes...come back on Usenet and tell
me all about it. With luck..it will never come. But keep in mind..that
it MAY come..and having a marginal firearm is what you will be
defending yourself with. No more nor no less than what a cop or soldier
will ultimately face at that "moment of truth"..when all the cards are
on the table, there is no "out"..and its you versus the bad guy. The
winner walking away..or getting a ride in an ambulance..the loser gets a
chalk outline.
Which is the way most actual knife fights end..the winner gets a fast
and hurried ride in an ambulance..the loser gets the chalk outline.
Been there, done that. Shrug
Just keep in mind..that if the worst happens...do you want to defend
your life or the life of another...with something that will not stop a
determined attacker, until you are crippled or dead?
Shrug...life saving decisions are sometimes hard..sometimes easy.
Make em wisely.
dca...@krl.org
>
> So you going to get an M4? And one should note..they dont carry them
> concealed, nor is their Level III body armor concealed. <G>
>
> Gunner
>
The M4 with full jacketed bullets is not even an adequate deer rifle.
Dan
Michael A. Terrell
pyotr filipivich wrote:
>
> I got in touch with my feminine side. She slapped me, and got an
> restraining order.
Can you blame her? :)
--
Offworld checks no longer accepted!
Michael A. Terrell
Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> Thats one of the pities about being self employed. I cant use my native
> american heritage to further myself very much within my company. Damned
> bigots!!
>
> Maybe after the first of the year..if things remain in the shitter..Ill
> apply for a Government job and indicate that Im native American in
> heritage. Maybe they will make me governor or something.
You could always claim to be a minority owned business. :)
Gunner Asch
On full auto..you can simply weight a deer down with rounds so it
staggers off and ultimately dies of blood loss.
But you are absolutely correct.
Gunner Asch
oooooh! I like that! After all..Im 12% native American...so by Obama
Standards...Im an Indian.
Thanks!!!!
pyotr filipivich
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
><dca...@krl.org> wrote:
>
>>On Dec 24, 6:15�am, Gunner Asch <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> So you going to get an M4? �And one should note..they dont carry them
>>> concealed, nor is their Level III body armor concealed. <G>
>>>
>>> Gunner
>>>
>>
>>The M4 with full jacketed bullets is not even an adequate deer rifle.
>>
>> Dan
>On full auto..you can simply weight a deer down with rounds so it
>staggers off and ultimately dies of blood loss.
Isn't that what ultimately killed Dick Tracy? Or was it lead
posioning from all the bullets left in him after all those shootouts.
"It's just a flesh wound."
One ore reason to pack something with "DRT" capability - you don't
want them dieing of lead posioning.
Michael A. Terrell
Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 11:42:15 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Gunner Asch wrote:
> >>
> >> Thats one of the pities about being self employed. I cant use my native
> >> american heritage to further myself very much within my company. Damned
> >> bigots!!
> >>
> >> Maybe after the first of the year..if things remain in the shitter..Ill
> >> apply for a Government job and indicate that Im native American in
> >> heritage. Maybe they will make me governor or something.
> >
> >
> > You could always claim to be a minority owned business. :)
>
> oooooh! I like that! After all..Im 12% native American...so by Obama
> Standards...Im an Indian.
>
> Thanks!!!!
By his standards you should qualify for some sweet, overpriced
government contacts, too. :)