Use of primitive tools
Michael Koblic
services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss army
knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how to use
the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them used the
wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some injuries
and the cans were mangled. One failed to empty the can in the alloted time.
I wondered about the implications: Is this a reflection on general
population's unfamiliarity with a can opener? Is this a reflection on basic
training? Is it because the knife was *Swiss*? It cannot be because the
knife was *Army* as I believe it was the Army guy who failed. I hesitate to
cite stress affecting the performance of members of fighitng forces.
Would members of the Special Forces have done better? One of the guys made a
creditable effort to rip the can open with his bare hands but with a minimum
result. How would the US Armed forces stack up against, say, the Brits or
the Russians?
Is this something to be concerned about? Do I have too much time on my
hands?
--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC
Jim Stewart
We all probably have too much time on our hands
so I'll let that slide.
Any pre-gulf war vet would have used a P-38 to
open his/her C-rations and would be able to
figure out the knife. I hope.
I was shocked to learn that some of my daugher's
high school friends were never allowed to use
kitchen knives.
I'm guessing that the whole concept of tool-using
is slowly bleeding out of a large portion of the
population. Cars neither need nor are easy to
repair. Most products are cheaper to throw away
than to fix. How many *hundreds* of old collected
sets of tools end up at the flea market, presumably
because their new owner had no use for them.
For example, most people used to at least have
a clue as to how a television works. I think
that if you asked most young people, you'd get
a one word answer, LED or LCL or plasma.
The military is having a hard time attracting
enough smart and educated recruits. This is not
meant to disparage our troops, but OTOH, there's
not a lot of kids going into the military to learn
a civilian trade any more.
Oh well, just means us old farts will have some
value in the next 20 or 30 years.
Pete C.
The biggest issue this points out is the lack of basic mechanical
aptitude and problem solving skills. Even if all these troops have seen
are tear to open MREs, they should be able to look at the can, look at
the options on the knife and use basic mechanical problem solving skills
to figure it out.
The sad fact is that a large portion of our volunteer troops come from
backgrounds where religious indoctrination took precedence over basic
education - not unlike the enemy they are currently fighting.
F. George McDuffee
<jste...@jkmicro.com> wrote:
>The military is having a hard time attracting
>enough smart and educated recruits. This is not
>meant to disparage our troops, but OTOH, there's
>not a lot of kids going into the military to learn
>a civilian trade any more.
===============
Another factoid that is not widely known.
At one time the U.S. military was the worlds largest trade school
and many of the machinists, welders, riggers, electronics techs,
etc. that kept America running, learned their trade and got their
start in the trade there.
It should be noted that the draft was in effect at that time and
if you were male you either went to college or went in the
military. Either way you learned something.
Steve W.
Well I decided to try it myself. Grabbed a standard can of tuna (no C
sauce left), laid my Mechanics model Victorinox knife down and started
the clock.
48 seconds to open the can.
The trick with them is that you go forwards and rock the knife to keep
it cutting. If you try going backwards you leave small slivers of lid
behind.
Now with the P-38 I could likely open it a lot faster.
--
Steve W.
Stormin Mormon
provide for our youth. I got to use the can opener on a
folding knife, about age 6 or 8 some where along that age.
Had my first folding knife by 8 or so. Now days, I doubt
that kids are allowed to carry pocket knives, even when not
in school.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Michael Koblic" <mko...@uniserve.com> wrote in message
news:BI_Pm.79221$Wf2....@newsfe23.iad...
Gunner Asch
wrote:
You are confusing something..most of these kids are conservative and
largely from rural areas..so they are head and hands smarter and better
educatied than city kids.
Are you saying that the kid that just put the carby out of a 72 Poncho
into his 89 Poncho cant figure out how to open an MRE?
Gunner
"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster
Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton
William Wixon
i didn't see the video. i bet leno has lots of guys try it and only airs
the most embarrassing footage.
i imagined that's how he used to do his "jaywalking" segment, selectively
editing so that only the most apparently stoopid people aired.
b.w.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
I should mention..that I as a survivalist or miltiary man..have opened 3
cans of Stuff in my entire life with a Swiss Army Knife.
On the other hand....I have a P38/P51 on every keychain I own, and one
on the dog tags chain I wear when Im out in the field
And I can and HAVE opened a shit load of stuff with a P38 or its larger
brother..the P51
The .."swiss army knife" has not been GI Issue since WW2 to the best of
my knowlege...the various P38s have done yoemans duty since 43 or so
IRRC
http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/page52.shtml#p51
Ignoramus11641
mostly for).
It is the job of parents to foster their kids' mechanical aptitude.
i
Pete C.
I may have grown up on more modern can openers, but when faced with pina
coladas to make and no modern can opener to use on the cans of Coco
Lopez it took me mere seconds to open them with the old style opener on
my multi tool.
Beryl
> Michael Koblic wrote:
>> I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five armed
>> services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss army
>> knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how to use
>> the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them used the
>> wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some injuries
>> and the cans were mangled. One failed to empty the can in the alloted time.
>>
>> I wondered about the implications: Is this a reflection on general
>> population's unfamiliarity with a can opener? Is this a reflection on basic
>> training? Is it because the knife was *Swiss*? It cannot be because the
>> knife was *Army* as I believe it was the Army guy who failed. I hesitate to
>> cite stress affecting the performance of members of fighitng forces.
>>
>> Would members of the Special Forces have done better? One of the guys made a
>> creditable effort to rip the can open with his bare hands but with a minimum
>> result. How would the US Armed forces stack up against, say, the Brits or
>> the Russians?
>>
>> Is this something to be concerned about? Do I have too much time on my
>> hands?
>>
>
> Well I decided to try it myself. Grabbed a standard can of tuna (no C
> sauce left), laid my Mechanics model Victorinox knife down and started
> the clock.
>
> 48 seconds to open the can.
Disgraceful.
> The trick with them is that you go forwards and rock the knife to keep
> it cutting. If you try going backwards you leave small slivers of lid
> behind.
I use my Victorinox "Tinkerer", it's the only can opener I have.
I lost a U.S. Coast Guard can opener somewhere. It's tiny, folds, fits
on a keychain. Takes easy twist-o'-the-wrist action, without bending the
wrist or jacking the elbow up and down. It cuts like the Swiss Army
tool, except it travels backward, clockwise around the can. It's
perfect, far better than the Swiss Army opener.
Steve W.
I'm a bit out of practice.... Think I may have used it 20 times and I've
had that type of knife about 20 years...
>
>> The trick with them is that you go forwards and rock the knife to keep
>> it cutting. If you try going backwards you leave small slivers of lid
>> behind.
>
> I use my Victorinox "Tinkerer", it's the only can opener I have.
> I lost a U.S. Coast Guard can opener somewhere. It's tiny, folds, fits
> on a keychain. Takes easy twist-o'-the-wrist action, without bending the
> wrist or jacking the elbow up and down. It cuts like the Swiss Army
> tool, except it travels backward, clockwise around the can. It's
> perfect, far better than the Swiss Army opener.
The P-51 I have works easier BUT it's also larger than the 38. One I
used to have around was even smaller than the 38, came with a brand of
sardines I used to get.
The one I like the most is a larger one that has a bottle opener, the
can blade and the other end is a spoon. With that one you can open the
can, eat, and have ONE item to clean!
Of course now I only get MREs to stock the vehicles with. They are REAL
popular when we get a LONG fire call and your hungry. I have been
bugging the dept to buy a case or two just to keep in the rigs.
--
Steve W.
Erik
> i didn't see the video. i bet leno has lots of guys try it and only airs
> the most embarrassing footage.
> i imagined that's how he used to do his "jaywalking" segment, selectively
> editing so that only the most apparently stoopid people aired.
>
> b.w.
Leno... is he still around?
Erik
Mark Rand
>The P-51 I have works easier BUT it's also larger than the 38. One I
>used to have around was even smaller than the 38, came with a brand of
>sardines I used to get.
>
I was a bit taken aback...
Isn't it overkill to use a fighter plane to open a can of tuna??
How much tuna is left in the can afterwards?
:-)
Mark Rand
RTFM
Wes
>I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five armed
>services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss army
>knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how to use
>the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them used the
>wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some injuries
>and the cans were mangled. One failed to empty the can in the alloted time.
Hard to believe they never saw a swiss army knife before.
On a camping trip, my brother and I raced using the swiss army knife against the P-38 or
"John Wayne" as it was called when I was in. My brother beat me everytime with the Swiss.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Jim Wilkins
> "Michael Koblic" <mkob...@uniserve.com> wrote:
> >I...
> On a camping trip, my brother and I raced using the swiss army knife against the P-38 or
> "John Wayne" as it was called when I was in. My brother beat me everytime with the Swiss.
>
> Wes
When I try to hurry with my Chinese Army Knife's can opener it leaves
nasty splinters.
The little screwdriver blade on the end will do Phillips heads if they
aren't too tight.
jsw
Larry Fishel
> i didn't see the video. i bet leno has lots of guys try it and only airs
> the most embarrassing footage.
Yeah, everyone Is aware that his show is supposed to be comedy, right?
Steve W.
Depends on the point of aim ;-)
--
Steve W.
Larry Jaques
<mko...@uniserve.com> scrawled the following:
>I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five armed
>services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss army
>knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how to use
>the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them used the
>wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some injuries
>and the cans were mangled. One failed to empty the can in the alloted time.
That's downright shameful. I hope it comes out later that Leno set
'em up or paid them to stumble. Any other scenario is just too scary.
I hope the Al Queda boys don't see that show. Talk about an esteem
builder for the enemy...
>I wondered about the implications: Is this a reflection on general
>population's unfamiliarity with a can opener? Is this a reflection on basic
>training? Is it because the knife was *Swiss*? It cannot be because the
>knife was *Army* as I believe it was the Army guy who failed. I hesitate to
>cite stress affecting the performance of members of fighitng forces.
The question coming up in my mind: Is this entire current generation
totally clueless when it comes to mechanical things, and only good for
playing electronic games?
>Would members of the Special Forces have done better?
If -all- of them couldn't do it in record time, I'd be extremely
surprised.
>One of the guys made a
>creditable effort to rip the can open with his bare hands but with a minimum
>result. How would the US Armed forces stack up against, say, the Brits or
>the Russians?
I'd hope both the Brits and Russians would do better than our sample
did, that's for certain.
>Is this something to be concerned about? Do I have too much time on my
>hands?
Yes, and absolutely. Next question!
--
Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.
Michael A. Terrell
Ignoramus11641 wrote:
>
> I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
> mostly for).
No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
possible know that.
--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!
Larry Jaques
<jste...@jkmicro.com> scrawled the following:
Sad, isn't it?
>For example, most people used to at least have
>a clue as to how a television works. I think
>that if you asked most young people, you'd get
>a one word answer, LED or LCL or plasma.
I don't hang around young people, but it appears that curiosity is
missing from their lives. Maybe that's the price of today's
technology, making everything available at once. Nobody gets bored
enough to turn curious any more.
>The military is having a hard time attracting
>enough smart and educated recruits. This is not
>meant to disparage our troops, but OTOH, there's
>not a lot of kids going into the military to learn
>a civilian trade any more.
Too many are referred from drug/alcohol rehab programs, jail, or
court. Scary, wot?
>Oh well, just means us old farts will have some
>value in the next 20 or 30 years.
Y'mean I just may make a _Living Wage_ sometime in my future?
Excellent!
Michael A. Terrell
You know what they say: 'Old comics never die, but their old jokes
do.'
Larry Jaques
<ra...@internettie.co.uk> scrawled the following:
The respective answers are "So what?" and "Who cares?" It's fun.
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
>
> >I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five armed
> >services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss army
> >knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how to use
> >the can opener attachment,
Were they all freshly minted Lieutenants?
A crusty old Sergeant would just order the can lid to ATTENTION!!!
(after I rigged it for him)
jsw
Wes
>I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
>mostly for).
Most soviet bayonets were only useful for tent spikes or sticking people.
Wes
>For example, most people used to at least have
>a clue as to how a television works. I think
>that if you asked most young people, you'd get
>a one word answer, LED or LCL or plasma.
Outside of a RF reciever, most televisions don't work the same as they did when I was a
kid.
They did go digital recently.
WEs
Jim Wilkins
>
> Outside of a RF reciever, most televisions don't work the same as they did when I was a
> kid.
>
> They did go digital recently.
Downconvert, digitize, the rest is software.
jsw
John R. Carroll
I'd be interested in hearing about that.
I've gone from 30 decent channels to six poor ones.
--
John R. Carroll
Wes
>>> They did go digital recently.
>>
>> Downconvert, digitize, the rest is software.
>
>I'd be interested in hearing about that.
>I've gone from 30 decent channels to six poor ones.
But think of all the spectrum the goverment was able to sell.
I thought this was only a problem in the flyover states.
Wes
Gunner Asch
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Ignoramus11641 wrote:
>>
>> I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
>> mostly for).
>
>
> No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
>possible know that.
But...as a side utility..they do work as an impromptu kan opener.
The 3 fingered flash suppressor on the early M16s was to keep the flash
of the weapon out of your aiming line of sight. The secondary utility
was for busting the strapping on C-rat cases.
Then the bastards changed the design...sigh
Gunner
"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster
Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton
William Wixon
"Steve Ackman" <st...@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com> wrote in message
news:slrnhh3da9...@sorceror.wizard.dyndns.org...
> In <yW1Qm.50702$Wd1....@newsfe15.iad>, on Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:46:21
> -0600, William Wixon, wwi...@frontiernet.net wrote:
>
>> i didn't see the video. i bet leno has lots of guys try it and only airs
>> the most embarrassing footage.
>
> was all military. One from each branch competed for
> a car.
>
>
oh! LOL! that must've been damn funny to watch. wow. lol. jeez.
b.w.
Up North
"Gunner Asch" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:gn71h5la2f13gs8v5...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:14:24 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Jim Stewart wrote:
>>>
>>> Michael Koblic wrote:
>>> > I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five
>>> > armed
>>> > services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss
>>> > army
>>> > knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how
>>> > to use
>>> a clue as to how a television works. I think
>>> that if you asked most young people, you'd get
>>> a one word answer, LED or LCL or plasma.
>>>
>>> enough smart and educated recruits. This is not
>>> meant to disparage our troops, but OTOH, there's
>>> not a lot of kids going into the military to learn
>>> a civilian trade any more.
>>>
>>> value in the next 20 or 30 years.
>>
>>aptitude and problem solving skills. Even if all these troops have seen
>>are tear to open MREs, they should be able to look at the can, look at
>>the options on the knife and use basic mechanical problem solving skills
>>to figure it out.
>>
>>The sad fact is that a large portion of our volunteer troops come from
>>backgrounds where religious indoctrination took precedence over basic
>>education - not unlike the enemy they are currently fighting.
>
>
> You are confusing something..most of these kids are conservative and
> largely from rural areas..so they are head and hands smarter and better
> educatied than city kids.
>
> Are you saying that the kid that just put the carby out of a 72 Poncho
> into his 89 Poncho cant figure out how to open an MRE?
Why would a smart kid want to take the fuel injection off a car and put a
carb on it? I think the smart ones are putting FI where a carb used to live.
Steve
Steve W.
> In <heq4lk$lkf$1...@aioe.org>, on Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:16:44 -0500, Steve
>
>> Well I decided to try it myself. Grabbed a standard can of tuna (no C
>> sauce left), laid my Mechanics model Victorinox knife down and started
>> the clock.
>>
>> 48 seconds to open the can.
>
> seconds is pitful! ;-)
Well I'm sort of spoiled with the electric....
I have been looking for the oddball opener I have, may have sent it with
a friend who went into the sandbox.
>
> I just did a large can (4" dia.) of tamales in less
> than 30 seconds using the can opener on my Leatherman.
> Could have done it in half that time easily with a
> P-38. Probably 70% of that for a normal sized can.
>
Well with my alternative opener I could probably open the can in about
1/1000 of a second. But the results from that .50 going through the lid
ain't pretty. ;-)
Just had another case of MREs dropped today. Have to rotate the stock. I
will say the new menu for 09 is pretty good, they are now up to 24
different entree's. Many of which are actually edible.
--
Steve W.
Wes
>The 3 fingered flash suppressor on the early M16s was to keep the flash
>of the weapon out of your aiming line of sight. The secondary utility
>was for busting the strapping on C-rat cases.
>
>Then the bastards changed the design...sigh
I saw that on a rifle at ITR. My rifle had the newer design.
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
>
>
> Yes. In looking for a can to open to time myself,
27.9 seconds to free the bottom of an 18.8 Oz Campbells Chunky can
with a Chinese copy of the Swiss Soldier.
http://www.surplusandadventure.com/images/product/main/soldier.jpg
I'd already popped the top and emptied it so slivers don't matter.
Looks like a good idea to wash the can out, too.
jsw
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>Steve Ackman wrote:
Get any spares..Ill swap you Stuff for em. At least 3 yrs before
expiration date please....<G>
John R. Carroll
> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
>>>> They did go digital recently.
>>>
>>> Downconvert, digitize, the rest is software.
>>
>> I'd be interested in hearing about that.
>> I've gone from 30 decent channels to six poor ones.
>
>
> But think of all the spectrum the goverment was able to sell.
>
> I thought this was only a problem in the flyover states.
I think it's a problem for everyone except cable and satellite service
providers.
--
John R. Carroll
Michael Koblic
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:heq6up$t6$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>I think it's a sad commentary on the different activites we
> provide for our youth. I got to use the can opener on a
> folding knife, about age 6 or 8 some where along that age.
> Had my first folding knife by 8 or so. Now days, I doubt
> that kids are allowed to carry pocket knives, even when not
> in school.
>
I started carrying a folder about the same time I was introduced to P38 -
about age 5. No question IMHO that P38 is a superior tool but that is not
the point. I do not know how long Swiss Army knives have been around. I got
my first one about 45 years ago. The can opener design has not changed since
then (although I did get my last one SAK about 8 years ago so I cannot be
completely sure). I would find it hard to believe that most young men have
not seen or handled an SAK at some point. I know that some of the Brit
special forces like to buy and carry their own.
Any young man of my generation who ever was in a position to have to look
after himself pretty much acquired the skill of can opening as a survival
mechanism, using not just one or two can openers, but several.
So my first reaction to seeing the Leno show was first incredulity and than
amusement. Later I began to wonder about the implications.
I understand that the current form of rations (MREs?) do not contain cans
and, as someone pointed out, rightly so: They have other things to worry
about. However, the rub of that argument is that overdependence on issue
rations may not be a good thing in the "fog of war" situation. The extreme
is to say that if not issued with MREs the troops would starve. The opposite
of that is the Russian guerilla cavalry in WW2 who generally managed with a
bagful of vegetables scrounged off the land for 3 weeks at a time.
Many have commented on the possible reason of this state of affairs and
there is probably a bit of truth in all of them. I just could not get away
from explaining how single young men survive without opening cans. Then it
came to me: Take-out meals!
--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC
Ignoramus10998
> Ignoramus11641 wrote:
>>
>> I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
>> mostly for).
>
> No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
> possible know that.
Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled
anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?
i
Ignoramus10998
> Ignoramus11641 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.11641.invalid> wrote:
>>I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
>>mostly for).
>
> Most soviet bayonets were only useful for tent spikes or sticking people.
Soviet bayonets can also cut wire.
i
Jim Wilkins
> Wes wrote:
...
>
> I think it's a problem for everyone except cable and satellite service
> providers.
I can pick up the same Boston area stations as before, plus new -2, -3
etc channels from PBS. All I lost was DX'ing the analog VHF ones 100+
miles away, like Portland ME and Hartford CT.
bidness.dev.nul???
When I was using a more sophisticated Mac newsreader and could see
headers, one frequent, irascible poster would set replies to go to
dev.null unless we manually changed them. We teased him that it was
really the secret vault where he kept and fed his piece of Invisigoth,
the girl who escaped into the Internet on the X-Files.
I've got mine.
jsw
John R. Carroll
> On Nov 28, 9:11 pm, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>> Wes wrote:
> ...
>>
>> I think it's a problem for everyone except cable and satellite
>> service providers.
>> John R. Carroll
>
> I can pick up the same Boston area stations as before, plus new -2, -3
> etc channels from PBS.
I used to watch Charlie Rose every night, that and "Everybody Loves
Raymond". No more.
11,13, 7,9 28, 56 and 58 are gone. No more "Frontline" or "Nova"
either.......
I don't even get an ABC affiliate anymore.
>All I lost was DX'ing the analog VHF ones 100+
> miles away, like Portland ME and Hartford CT.
I get a bunch of Spanish language programming.
That, NBC and ION are about it.
Something else is a little strange. I have to rescan a couple times per day
to keep CBS.
--
John R. Carroll
Jim Stewart
> Just had another case of MREs dropped today. Have to rotate the stock. I
> will say the new menu for 09 is pretty good, they are now up to 24
> different entree's. Many of which are actually edible.
Where do you get them?
Doug White
news:gTkQm.34190$kY2....@newsfe01.iad:
>
> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:heq6up$t6$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>I think it's a sad commentary on the different activites we
>> provide for our youth. I got to use the can opener on a
>> folding knife, about age 6 or 8 some where along that age.
>> Had my first folding knife by 8 or so. Now days, I doubt
>> that kids are allowed to carry pocket knives, even when not
>> in school.
>>
>
> I started carrying a folder about the same time I was introduced to
> P38 - about age 5. No question IMHO that P38 is a superior tool but
> that is not the point. I do not know how long Swiss Army knives have
> been around. I got my first one about 45 years ago. The can opener
> design has not changed since then (although I did get my last one SAK
> about 8 years ago so I cannot be completely sure). I would find it
> hard to believe that most young men have not seen or handled an SAK at
> some point. I know that some of the Brit special forces like to buy
> and carry their own.
I'm not sure it it is still the case, but it can depend on which brand of
Swiss Army Knife you have. My father had a Wenger SAK, and the can
opener on it was terrible. You had to stab it through the can top, and
it cut up instead of down. You could take the top off a can OK, but it
left a ragged sharp edge sticking up. Definitely not something you
wanted to drink out of, for example.
Victorinox uses the downward cutting hook the same as the old Boy Scout
knives, both similar to a P38 in basic design. I think Victoriox &
Wenger got into some sort of patent / trade-mark legal contest back in
the late 50's or early 60's when they first became popular in the US.
After using my dad's, I couldn't imagine why anyone would want one until
I discovered Victorinox had a decent can opener. Someplace I also have
an SAK with a slit in the Phillips screw driver so you can use it to wind
up a sardine can lid.
Doug White
Jim Stewart
> Any young man of my generation who ever was in a position to have to look
> after himself pretty much acquired the skill of can opening as a survival
> mechanism, using not just one or two can openers, but several.
All you need to know...
Looney Tunes - "Canned Feud"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMqhGrmt828&feature=PlayList&p=2C428D668E4DE97D&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1
cavelamb
So odd, timing wise, Wes...
Over soup and sandwich at Panera tonight, Dorothy asked me how TVs worked.
I started with a 1955 Philco black and white set and explained how the
horizontal and vertical saw-tooth signals moved the electron beam across
the screen, why the H and V sync signals were so important, and all that.
Even touched on the phase angle reference in color TV (VERY briefly).
She's a bright girl! She immediately said, "Yeah, but flat panel screens
don't work like that, do they".
So I explained to her how the flat screen has tiny computer circuits in it
that 1) monitor the incoming RGB (or whatever) signal and store it to screen
memory while 2) other little dedicated circuits copy from their portion of
screen memory to their little portion of the display screen.
Refresh rates versed flicker.
And all of that to maintain backwards compatibility to the original video
signal.
But my bottom line to the OP is simply thus: once software replaces
mechanical stuff, it's sufficiently advanced enough to qualify as magic.
And who can possibly understand that kind of Magic?
Some of us here do - but certainly not all of us.
Just buy it (cheap) and play with it until it breaks.
Very little of the consumer electronics products are actually repairable.
The problem that keeps if from working may just be a portion of one chip.
But cost to repair versed cost to replace?
It has to be pretty expensive stuff before it can be economically repaired.
cavelamb
> In <heq4lk$lkf$1...@aioe.org>, on Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:16:44 -0500, Steve
> W., csr...@NOTyahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Well I decided to try it myself. Grabbed a standard can of tuna (no C
>> sauce left), laid my Mechanics model Victorinox knife down and started
>> the clock.
>>
>> 48 seconds to open the can.
>
> I don't think you beat the Army guy on Leno. 48
> seconds is pitful! ;-)
>
> than 30 seconds using the can opener on my Leatherman.
> Could have done it in half that time easily with a
> P-38. Probably 70% of that for a normal sized can.
>
I have a special P-38 on my key chain and use it regularly.
IT was the last of the 6 P-38s in my last case of C-Rats
in 1969. I've used this particular P-38 for 40 years.
(Holy time warp, Batman!)
It's still sharp.
Together we can open a can in 10 or 15 seconds.
Not much slower than crank type and a heck of a lot
more convenient than an electric.
Larry Jaques
<kb1...@gmail.com> scrawled the following:
>On Nov 28, 4:33�pm, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com>
>wrote:
>>
>> >I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five armed
>> >services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss army
>> >knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how to use
>> >the can opener attachment,
>
>Were they all freshly minted Lieutenants?
>
>A crusty old Sergeant would just order the can lid to ATTENTION!!!
LOL!
>(after I rigged it for him)
That's two today. I didn't write that text. The Doc done it!
--
Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.
cavelamb
I played with my neighbor's M16 a while back.
It was one of those new fangled heavy barrel things.
I didn't much care fore it.
John R. Carroll
Yeah, but they go off every time you pull the trigger, unlike an M4.
--
John R. Carroll
Steve W.
Depends on what I'm looking for, I have both "civilian" MREs and GI
issue stuff. The Civi stuff I get through Sopakco (Sure-Pak 12)
They also make GI MREs so you get a lot of the same items EXCEPT they
offer meals YOU choose. MREDepot.com also carries Menu-C MREs and those
are basically military MREs that were ordered for a contractor in Iraq
who then backed out of the deal. Those also have a somewhat better
selection of entrees.
http://theepicenter.com/mre_military_meal_ready_to_eat.html
has the Sopakco civies.
For real GI stuff I hit Ebay or a friend who runs a surplus outfit. This
last case came off EBay and has a pack date of 6/09. They are now in
cold storage until needed. If you can keep them at 30 degrees or so they
will last about 12 years.
--
Steve W.
Michael A. Terrell
I was never in battle, but I was trained by the US Army how to do
it. Not that you would understand the difference. Does the term 'Affix
bayonets' mean anything to you?
--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!
Michael A. Terrell
My last P38 finally wore so bad that it fell off my keyring.
Michael A. Terrell
I lost all the OTA channels when they made the switch.
cavelamb
My personal piece, If I can pick anything I want would be a match
grade M14 - big, heavy, clunky, old fashioned.
But it's one hell of a punch when you need one.
Ignoramus10998
>
> Ignoramus10998 wrote:
>>
>> On 2009-11-28, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > Ignoramus11641 wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
>> >> mostly for).
>> >
>> > No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
>> > possible know that.
>>
>> Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled
>> anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?
>
> I was never in battle, but I was trained by the US Army how to do
> it.
Hm, and they told you that bayonets are for "disemboweling"?
> Not that you would understand the difference. Does the term 'Affix
> bayonets' mean anything to you?
I have never been taught how to use them, but I was taught how to
affix them. In any case, I am not sure whether disemboweling people
with the bayonet attached to a rifle, is very practicable. Maybe
someone could shed light on that.
i
John R. Carroll
The most effective disemboweling tool the Army ever possessed, and still
does, is a radio.
That currently would be either the AN/PRC-117F or my personal favorite, the
AN/PRC-152
Older comm gear wasn't as reliable but was none the less extremely dangerous
when employed properly.
It also made a decent head rest.
--
John R. Carroll
Steve W.
> On 2009-11-29, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Ignoramus10998 wrote:
>>> On 2009-11-28, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Ignoramus11641 wrote:
>>>>> I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
>>>>> mostly for).
>>>> No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
>>>> possible know that.
>>> Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled
>>> anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?
>> I was never in battle, but I was trained by the US Army how to do
>> it.
>
> Hm, and they told you that bayonets are for "disemboweling"?
Bayonets in actual battle use are the absolute weapon of last resort.
However the way that your taught to use them is to stab at the center of
mass and use the rifles weight to aid your thrust into the vitals. Then
you let the weight drop while you pull the bayonet out. Done correctly
it leaves a LARGE belly wound so that you can actually let that enemy
drop behind you.
>
>> Not that you would understand the difference. Does the term 'Affix
>> bayonets' mean anything to you?
>
> I have never been taught how to use them, but I was taught how to
> affix them. In any case, I am not sure whether disemboweling people
> with the bayonet attached to a rifle, is very practicable. Maybe
> someone could shed light on that.
Actually it isn't real hard, Keep in mind that a bayonet that has seen
use won't have a very sharp edge. The weight of the rifle behind it
helps it to penetrate farther faster. With the current bladed bayonets
you have a LOT more of a chance of doing damage.
Now if you REALLY want to open up the belly you don't use the standard
thrust motion taught in basic or AIT. You use a can opener move that
actually uses the rifle as a lever. In that you turn the rifle on it's
side. Stab it into the target, then as you come close to the target you
step to the side and pull the rifle/bayonet around and out behind you.
Instead of the 3-4" cut you get the other way you end up with a 6-10
inch open gash that really opens them up.
--
Steve W.
Gerald Miller
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> On Nov 28, 5:54 pm, Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Outside of a RF reciever, most televisions don't work the same as
>>> they did when I was a kid.
>>>
>>> They did go digital recently.
>>
>> Downconvert, digitize, the rest is software.
>
>I'd be interested in hearing about that.
>I've gone from 30 decent channels to six poor ones.
Is that a matter of content or signal quality?
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
Michael A. Terrell
Ignoramus10998 wrote:
>
> On 2009-11-29, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Ignoramus10998 wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2009-11-28, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> > Ignoramus11641 wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
> >> >> mostly for).
> >> >
> >> > No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
> >> > possible know that.
> >>
> >> Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled
> >> anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?
> >
> > I was never in battle, but I was trained by the US Army how to do
> > it.
>
> Hm, and they told you that bayonets are for "disemboweling"?
It's a quick way to kill someone up close, when yo either have to
keep quiet, or are out of ammo. Shove it in, twist, and jerk it out.
Some of the intestines follow the bayonet as it is pulled out. It's not
as fast as a bullet, but the chances of living aren't much better than
being shot. It's not something for people with a weak stomach to have
to do.
> > Not that you would understand the difference. Does the term 'Affix
> > bayonets' mean anything to you?
>
> I have never been taught how to use them, but I was taught how to
> affix them. In any case, I am not sure whether disemboweling people
> with the bayonet attached to a rifle, is very practicable. Maybe
> someone could shed light on that.
>
> i
Gerald Miller
<ra...@internettie.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 03:56:46 -0500, "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The P-51 I have works easier BUT it's also larger than the 38. One I
>>used to have around was even smaller than the 38, came with a brand of
>>sardines I used to get.
>>
>
>
>I was a bit taken aback...
>
>Isn't it overkill to use a fighter plane to open a can of tuna??
>
>How much tuna is left in the can afterwards?
>
>
I have, on many occasions, used a sharp 2 pound axe to open cans; much
easier on the axe than using my skinning knife, safer too. I still
have the two axes my Dad and I carried on the trap line 50+ years ago.
Much easier to sharpen the axes with an angle grinder now than with
the hand cranked bench grinder I used to use!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
John R. Carroll
Both.
Digital doesn't fade in or out the way analogue did. "Static" manifests as a
screen lock up and it's much more annoying than poor picture quality. The
stuff Bill Moyers does for PBS is real journalism. I miss being able to
watch it on the television.
Fortunately, it's all on the net.
--
John R. Carroll
Gunner Asch
I gained 7 channels when we went to digital on the local antenna.
Unfortunately they are Spanish...shrug
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>
>"Gunner Asch" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
>news:gn71h5la2f13gs8v5...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:14:24 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Jim Stewart wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Michael Koblic wrote:
>>>> > I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five
>>>> > armed
>>>> > services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss
>>>> > army
>>>> > knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how
>>>> > to use
>>>> > the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them used
>>>> > the
>>>> > wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some
>>>> > injuries
>>>> > and the cans were mangled. One failed to empty the can in the alloted
>>>> > time.
>>>> >
>>>> > I wondered about the implications: Is this a reflection on general
>>>> > population's unfamiliarity with a can opener? Is this a reflection on
>>>> > basic
>>>> > training? Is it because the knife was *Swiss*? It cannot be because
>>>> > the
>>>> > knife was *Army* as I believe it was the Army guy who failed. I
>>>> > hesitate to
>>>> > cite stress affecting the performance of members of fighitng forces.
>>>> >
>>>> > Would members of the Special Forces have done better? One of the guys
>>>> > made a
>>>> > creditable effort to rip the can open with his bare hands but with a
>>>> > minimum
>>>> > result. How would the US Armed forces stack up against, say, the Brits
>>>> > or
>>>> > the Russians?
>>>> >
>>>> > Is this something to be concerned about? Do I have too much time on my
>>>> > hands?
>>>>
>>>> We all probably have too much time on our hands
>>>> so I'll let that slide.
>>>>
>>>> Any pre-gulf war vet would have used a P-38 to
>>>> open his/her C-rations and would be able to
>>>> figure out the knife. I hope.
>>>>
>>>> I was shocked to learn that some of my daugher's
>>>> high school friends were never allowed to use
>>>> kitchen knives.
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing that the whole concept of tool-using
>>>> is slowly bleeding out of a large portion of the
>>>> population. Cars neither need nor are easy to
>>>> repair. Most products are cheaper to throw away
>>>> than to fix. How many *hundreds* of old collected
>>>> sets of tools end up at the flea market, presumably
>>>> because their new owner had no use for them.
>>>>
>>>> For example, most people used to at least have
>>>> a clue as to how a television works. I think
>>>> that if you asked most young people, you'd get
>>>> a one word answer, LED or LCL or plasma.
>>>>
>>>> The military is having a hard time attracting
>>>> enough smart and educated recruits. This is not
>>>> meant to disparage our troops, but OTOH, there's
>>>> not a lot of kids going into the military to learn
>>>> a civilian trade any more.
>>>>
>>>> Oh well, just means us old farts will have some
>>>> value in the next 20 or 30 years.
>>>
>>>The biggest issue this points out is the lack of basic mechanical
>>>aptitude and problem solving skills. Even if all these troops have seen
>>>are tear to open MREs, they should be able to look at the can, look at
>>>the options on the knife and use basic mechanical problem solving skills
>>>to figure it out.
>>>
>>>The sad fact is that a large portion of our volunteer troops come from
>>>backgrounds where religious indoctrination took precedence over basic
>>>education - not unlike the enemy they are currently fighting.
>>
>>
>> You are confusing something..most of these kids are conservative and
>> largely from rural areas..so they are head and hands smarter and better
>> educatied than city kids.
>>
>> Are you saying that the kid that just put the carby out of a 72 Poncho
>> into his 89 Poncho cant figure out how to open an MRE?
>
>
>Why would a smart kid want to take the fuel injection off a car and put a
>carb on it? I think the smart ones are putting FI where a carb used to live.
>Steve
>
Shrug...after an EMP event..one should know how to do exactly that.
Gunner Asch
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.10998.invalid> wrote:
>On 2009-11-28, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Ignoramus11641 wrote:
>>>
>>> I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
>>> mostly for).
>>
>> No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
>> possible know that.
>
>Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled
>anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?
>
>i
Well.......shrug
Gunner Asch
Its very effective. Trust me
Gunner Asch
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.10998.invalid> wrote:
>On 2009-11-28, Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus11641 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.11641.invalid> wrote:
>>>I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
>>>mostly for).
>>
>> Most soviet bayonets were only useful for tent spikes or sticking people.
>
>Soviet bayonets can also cut wire.
>
>i
So can a bullet
Gerald Miller
<st...@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com> wrote:
>In <BI_Pm.79221$Wf2....@newsfe23.iad>, on Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:06:25
>-0800, Michael Koblic, mko...@uniserve.com wrote:
>> I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five armed
>> services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss army
>> knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how to use
>> the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them used the
>> wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some injuries
>> and the cans were mangled.
>
> It was Air Force who cut himself. "Anything to win,"
>was his quip. Incidentally, he WAS the one to win the
>race and the car... though for those who didn't see it,
>he didn't win the car for himself, but for a randomly
>selected member of his branch.
>
>> One failed to empty the can in the alloted time.
>
> That was the whole point. The last one to empty the
>contents was eliminated from the competition. By
>definition the slowest didn't finish in time.
>
>> I wondered about the implications: Is this a reflection on general
>> population's unfamiliarity with a can opener? Is this a reflection on basic
>> training? Is it because the knife was *Swiss*? It cannot be because the
>> knife was *Army* as I believe it was the Army guy who failed. I hesitate to
>> cite stress affecting the performance of members of fighitng forces.
>
> It wasn't the Army guy who failed because he was in
>the footrace against the Air Force guy. I *think* it
>was the Navy guy who failed.
>
>> Would members of the Special Forces have done better? One of the guys made a
>> creditable effort to rip the can open with his bare hands but with a minimum
>> result.
>
> The guy using "his bare hands" had already opened the
>can about 5/8 of the way around. He was using his hands
>to try to bend the lid up and out of the way so he could
>empty the cranberry sauce onto the plate. He's one who
>did NOT cut himself, strangely enough. Pretty sure he
>was first, and Army.
>
>> Is this something to be concerned about?
>
> Maybe.
>
>> Do I have too much time on my hands?
>
> Probably.
>
> I laughed with incredulity, but come to think of it,
>none of these guys has ever seen a C-ration. Guess
>there's no reason for them to know how to operate a
>field can opener.
The thing that gets me is the "safety" side cut can opener in the
kitchen drawer. Why is it safer to have a sharp edge of the can
surrounding the contents you are digging at, rather than on the metal
disk you are tossing into the trash; this assumes that you don't make
a habit of licking the lids clean before you toss them.
To my mind, they advertise these because they are made to a lower
standard of accuracy than the old top cut opener.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
>
> It's a quick way to kill someone up close, when yo either have to
> keep quiet, or are out of ammo.
Bayonets let you control captives with graded, non-lethal force backed
by a bullet if necessary.
I've read that they are a preferred weapon for close-up, nighttime
furball fights when you can't identify friend from foe at any
distance. In Herbert McBride's WW1 autobio the trench-raiding machine
gunners would bring only their spare barrels to use as clubs. They
wanted live prisoners to interrogate.
jsw
Stormin Mormon
Troops run out of MRE and starve to death surrounded by
captured warehouse of canned food?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Michael Koblic" <mko...@uniserve.com> wrote in message
news:gTkQm.34190$kY2....@newsfe01.iad...
I understand that the current form of rations (MREs?) do not
contain cans
and, as someone pointed out, rightly so: They have other
things to worry
about. However, the rub of that argument is that
overdependence on issue
rations may not be a good thing in the "fog of war"
situation. The extreme
is to say that if not issued with MREs the troops would
starve. The opposite
of that is the Russian guerilla cavalry in WW2 who generally
managed with a
bagful of vegetables scrounged off the land for 3 weeks at a
time.
Many have commented on the possible reason of this state of
affairs and
there is probably a bit of truth in all of them. I just
could not get away
from explaining how single young men survive without opening
cans. Then it
came to me: Take-out meals!
--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC
Up North
In that case you want a 240D with a stick. No pesky wires to make it run.
Steve
Michael A. Terrell
Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> >
> > I lost all the OTA channels when they made the switch.
>
> I gained 7 channels when we went to digital on the local antenna.
> Unfortunately they are Spanish...shrug
That's like being hung with a new rope. :(
Michael A. Terrell
What kept those prisoners in line? The knowledge that a quick
bayonet thrust, and they are dead. of course you want to obtain
information, but you can only control so many prisoners at a time.
Gunner Asch
Gunner Asch
wrote:
One of the finest trench weapons ever made, was the narrow bladed garden
or "sod" spade.
Wes
>> I thought this was only a problem in the flyover states.
>
>I think it's a problem for everyone except cable and satellite service
>providers.
I'm on Dishnetwork, broadcast signals barely made it to me in the analog days.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Larry Jaques
<st...@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com> scrawled the following:
>In <ca53h5llg909e8onu...@4ax.com>, on Sat, 28 Nov 2009
>13:33:17 -0800, Larry Jaques, novalidaddress@di wrote:
>
>>>I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five armed
>>>services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss army
>>>knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how to use
>>>the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them used the
>>>wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some injuries
>>>and the cans were mangled. One failed to empty the can in the alloted time.
>>
>> That's downright shameful. I hope it comes out later that Leno set
>> 'em up or paid them to stumble. Any other scenario is just too scary.
>> I hope the Al Queda boys don't see that show. Talk about an esteem
>> builder for the enemy...
>
> Nope. They were all trying their best to a) win a
>car, and b) not disgrace their branch of the service.
They c) Blew it all the way around.
>> The question coming up in my mind: Is this entire current generation
>> totally clueless when it comes to mechanical things, and only good for
>> playing electronic games?
>
> Yes. In looking for a can to open to time myself,
>I found more than half the cans in the cupboard are
>the "pop top" type that require no can opener at all.
>Probably not too many guys still active duty who have
>ever even seen a P-38 or C-ration. Seems to me that
>MRE's came out sometime around '80...ish.
It would also appear that not one of them ever had a Cub Scout or Boy
Scout session, and none of them spent any time with their dads in the
shop or hardware store. That's truly sad.
--
Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.
Larry Jaques
<mko...@uniserve.com> scrawled the following:
>
>"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:heq6up$t6$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>I think it's a sad commentary on the different activites we
>> provide for our youth. I got to use the can opener on a
>> folding knife, about age 6 or 8 some where along that age.
>> Had my first folding knife by 8 or so. Now days, I doubt
>> that kids are allowed to carry pocket knives, even when not
>> in school.
>>
>
>I started carrying a folder about the same time I was introduced to P38 -
>about age 5. No question IMHO that P38 is a superior tool but that is not
>the point. I do not know how long Swiss Army knives have been around. I got
>my first one about 45 years ago. The can opener design has not changed since
>then (although I did get my last one SAK about 8 years ago so I cannot be
>completely sure). I would find it hard to believe that most young men have
>not seen or handled an SAK at some point. I know that some of the Brit
>special forces like to buy and carry their own.
Yeah, how many men (or women) here have received a new knife and
haven't tried every single blade on it to get a feel for it? I always
did the very day, if not hour, that I received/bought one.
>Any young man of my generation who ever was in a position to have to look
>after himself pretty much acquired the skill of can opening as a survival
>mechanism, using not just one or two can openers, but several.
Today's technology and world are very different than what we grew up
with, but, still...
>So my first reaction to seeing the Leno show was first incredulity and than
>amusement. Later I began to wonder about the implications.
No doubt deadly under many circumstances.
>I understand that the current form of rations (MREs?) do not contain cans
>and, as someone pointed out, rightly so: They have other things to worry
>about. However, the rub of that argument is that overdependence on issue
>rations may not be a good thing in the "fog of war" situation. The extreme
>is to say that if not issued with MREs the troops would starve. The opposite
>of that is the Russian guerilla cavalry in WW2 who generally managed with a
>bagful of vegetables scrounged off the land for 3 weeks at a time.
>
>Many have commented on the possible reason of this state of affairs and
>there is probably a bit of truth in all of them. I just could not get away
>from explaining how single young men survive without opening cans. Then it
>came to me: Take-out meals!
I hear that the new MREs are all either tearable or pull-tab-to-open
and self-heating (if heating is needed) Mike. I've only seen
pictures of the new stuff.
Gunner Asch
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:19:50 -0800, the infamous "Michael Koblic"
><mko...@uniserve.com> scrawled the following:
>
>>
>>"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:heq6up$t6$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>I think it's a sad commentary on the different activites we
>>> provide for our youth. I got to use the can opener on a
>>> folding knife, about age 6 or 8 some where along that age.
>>> Had my first folding knife by 8 or so. Now days, I doubt
>>> that kids are allowed to carry pocket knives, even when not
>>> in school.
>>>
>>
>>I started carrying a folder about the same time I was introduced to P38 -
>>about age 5. No question IMHO that P38 is a superior tool but that is not
>>the point. I do not know how long Swiss Army knives have been around. I got
>>my first one about 45 years ago. The can opener design has not changed since
>>then (although I did get my last one SAK about 8 years ago so I cannot be
>>completely sure). I would find it hard to believe that most young men have
>>not seen or handled an SAK at some point. I know that some of the Brit
>>special forces like to buy and carry their own.
>
>Yeah, how many men (or women) here have received a new knife and
>haven't tried every single blade on it to get a feel for it? I always
>did the very day, if not hour, that I received/bought one.
I never bought my kid with a can opener on it. I did give him a couple
dozen P38s/P51s over the years however.
>
>
>>Any young man of my generation who ever was in a position to have to look
>>after himself pretty much acquired the skill of can opening as a survival
>>mechanism, using not just one or two can openers, but several.
>
>Today's technology and world are very different than what we grew up
>with, but, still...
>
>
>>So my first reaction to seeing the Leno show was first incredulity and than
>>amusement. Later I began to wonder about the implications.
>
>No doubt deadly under many circumstances.
>
>
>>I understand that the current form of rations (MREs?) do not contain cans
>>and, as someone pointed out, rightly so: They have other things to worry
>>about. However, the rub of that argument is that overdependence on issue
>>rations may not be a good thing in the "fog of war" situation. The extreme
>>is to say that if not issued with MREs the troops would starve. The opposite
>>of that is the Russian guerilla cavalry in WW2 who generally managed with a
>>bagful of vegetables scrounged off the land for 3 weeks at a time.
>>
>>Many have commented on the possible reason of this state of affairs and
>>there is probably a bit of truth in all of them. I just could not get away
>>from explaining how single young men survive without opening cans. Then it
>>came to me: Take-out meals!
>
>I hear that the new MREs are all either tearable or pull-tab-to-open
>and self-heating (if heating is needed) Mike. I've only seen
>pictures of the new stuff.
And it tastes pretty good. Beats the shit out of Beans and
Motherfuckers...C-rats...20 yr old Crats at that.
And they come with self heaters. stick em in the cup with some water,
drop in the bag..and in less than 5 minutes...voila!
Bruce L. Bergman
>"Gunner Asch" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:29:45 -0600, "Up North" wrote:
>>>"Gunner Asch" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:14:24 -0600, "Pete C." wrote:
>>>>>The biggest issue this points out is the lack of basic mechanical
>>>>>aptitude and problem solving skills. Even if all these troops have seen
>>>>>are tear to open MREs, they should be able to look at the can, look at
>>>>>the options on the knife and use basic mechanical problem solving skills
>>>>>to figure it out.
>>>>>
>>>>>The sad fact is that a large portion of our volunteer troops come from
>>>>>backgrounds where religious indoctrination took precedence over basic
>>>>>education - not unlike the enemy they are currently fighting.
>>>>
>>>> You are confusing something..most of these kids are conservative and
>>>> largely from rural areas..so they are head and hands smarter and better
>>>> educatied than city kids.
>>>>
>>>> Are you saying that the kid that just put the carby out of a 72 Poncho
>>>> into his 89 Poncho cant figure out how to open an MRE?
>>>
>>>Why would a smart kid want to take the fuel injection off a car and put a
>>>carb on it? I think the smart ones are putting FI where a carb used to
>>>live.
>>>Steve
Because the goons at the EPA decided that the EFI Map can't flow at
the rates you need when the engine is bored, stroked, hot cam, forged
pistons,supercharger and running on 108 Octane racing gasoline with a
shot of Laughing Gas at full throttle.
Carburetors don't ask questions, they just do it. At least till the
EPA and CARB say they can't anymore.
>> Shrug...after an EMP event..one should know how to do exactly that.
>>
>> Gunner
>
>In that case you want a 240D with a stick. No pesky wires to make it run.
>Steve
Well, that's fine after you get it running. But you still need a
working battery and starter and alternator. The battery and starter
motor will probably survive an EMP, but you only get it started so
many times without a working alternator or other charging method.
And parking at the top of a steep hill every time works fine for a
while - till the first time you dump the clutch and stall it someplace
dead flat for miles in every direction.
--<< Bruce >>--
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
http://www.eham.net/forums/EmergencyCommunications/4312
Just leave the battery disconnected.
jsw
Pete C.
Crank start...
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>On Nov 30, 2:48�am, Bruce L. Bergman <bruceNOSPAMberg...@gmail.com>
Blink blink...huh???
Gunner
Jim Wilkins
> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:23:31 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >http://www.eham.net/forums/EmergencyCommunications/4312
>
> >Just leave the battery disconnected.
>
> >jsw
>
> Blink blink...huh???
>
> Gunner
The EMP creates a high voltage spike but unlike lightning it carries
little energy, The heating power that fries semiconductors when the
EMP has turned them all on comes from the battery. Curve tracers,
hipotters etc that apply and measure similar breakdown voltages aren't
destructive because their output current is limited to very low
values. I built a machine once that zapped production high voltage
diodes with up to 40,000V to verify their Peak Reverse Voltage,
limited to a microamp by a large vacuum tube.
That's a simplified civilian explanation. If you are curious the ham
radio community knows a lot more of the unclassified details.
jsw
Up North
"Bruce L. Bergman" <bruceNOSP...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5et6h5ldq54kbhmrn...@4ax.com...
That is why FI is better. The system does ask questions like how hot is it.
How lean, how rich. EFI maps can be changed to suit the engine.
>
>>> Shrug...after an EMP event..one should know how to do exactly that.
>>>
>>> Gunner
>>
>>In that case you want a 240D with a stick. No pesky wires to make it run.
>>Steve
>
> Well, that's fine after you get it running. But you still need a
> working battery and starter and alternator. The battery and starter
> motor will probably survive an EMP, but you only get it started so
> many times without a working alternator or other charging method.
>
> And parking at the top of a steep hill every time works fine for a
> while - till the first time you dump the clutch and stall it someplace
> dead flat for miles in every direction.
>
> --<< Bruce >>--
A carb rigged on a newer car would do little to help you out in that
situation.
Steve
Richard the Dreaded Libertarian
>
> The military is having a hard time attracting enough smart and educated
> recruits. This is not meant to disparage our troops, but OTOH, there's
> not a lot of kids going into the military to learn a civilian trade any
> more.
The problem is exacerbated by the tendency of judges recently to offer
signing up for the military as an alternative to a prison sentence....
Hope This Helps!
Rich
Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
>
>Crank start...
A Diesel. Riiiiiight.... After you. Bring friends.
Steve W.
Not that hard, I have three crank start diesels, plus one that starts by
heating a steel tube and then tossing the flywheel over and another that
starts by using a blank shotgun shell!
Oh and one small generator (3500 watts)that is a pull start diesel.
(actually came from a Home Depot!)
--
Steve W.
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
[snip]
>
> The biggest issue this points out is the lack of basic mechanical
> aptitude and problem solving skills. Even if all these troops have seen
> are tear to open MREs, they should be able to look at the can, look at
> the options on the knife and use basic mechanical problem solving skills
> to figure it out.
They were out of their element.
Look at the can, look at the knife, pick up the M16 and shoot a few
holes in it.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Nothing Important Happened Today"
-- King George III, diary entry July 4, 1776
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
[snip]
>
> Now with the P-38 I could likely open it a lot faster.
Strafe it from a WWII era fighter?
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't upset me! I'm running out of places to hide the bodies.
Jay
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 03:56:46 -0500, "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote:
> >The P-51 I have works easier BUT it's also larger than the 38. One I
> >used to have around was even smaller than the 38, came with a brand of
> >sardines I used to get.
>
> I was a bit taken aback...
>
> Isn't it overkill to use a fighter plane to open a can of tuna??
>
> How much tuna is left in the can afterwards?
>
> :-)
>
> Mark Rand
> RTFM
LOL Very loud JD
Joe
<grmi...@rogers.com> wrote:
>The thing that gets me is the "safety" side cut can opener in the
>kitchen drawer. Why is it safer to have a sharp edge of the can
>surrounding the contents you are digging at, rather than on the metal
>disk you are tossing into the trash; this assumes that you don't make
>a habit of licking the lids clean before you toss them.
>To my mind, they advertise these because they are made to a lower
>standard of accuracy than the old top cut opener.
>Gerry :-)}
>London, Canada
The "safety cut" can openers I'm familiar with don't cut anything -
they uncrimp the can top so you just lift it off. They're hard to
find, but I like them better'n anything, including (especially?)
electric openers.
Joe
Mark Rand
wrote:
>"Steve W." wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>>
>> Now with the P-38 I could likely open it a lot faster.
>
>Strafe it from a WWII era fighter?
>
Deja vue all over again :-)
Mark Rand
RTFM
Pete C.
International UD9 - got one - it crank starts just fine with one person
jumping on the crank.
rangerssuck
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:27:57 -0700, Steve Ackman
>
>
>
> <st...@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com> wrote:
> >In <BI_Pm.79221$Wf2.33...@newsfe23.iad>, on Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:06:25
> >-0800, Michael Koblic, mkob...@uniserve.com wrote:
> >> I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five armed
> >> services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss army
> >> the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them used the
> >> wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some injuries
> >> and the cans were mangled.
>
> >was his quip. Incidentally, he WAS the one to win the
> >race and the car... though for those who didn't see it,
> >he didn't win the car for himself, but for a randomly
> >selected member of his branch.
>
> >> One failed to empty the can in the alloted time.
>
> >contents was eliminated from the competition. By
> >definition the slowest didn't finish in time.
>
> >> I wondered about the implications: Is this a reflection on general
> >> population's unfamiliarity with a can opener? Is this a reflection on basic
> >> training? Is it because the knife was *Swiss*? It cannot be because the
> >> knife was *Army* as I believe it was the Army guy who failed. I hesitate to
> >> cite stress affecting the performance of members of fighitng forces.
>
> >the footrace against the Air Force guy. I *think* it
> >was the Navy guy who failed.
>
> >> Would members of the Special Forces have done better? One of the guys made a
> >> creditable effort to rip the can open with his bare hands but with a minimum
> >> result.
>
> >can about 5/8 of the way around. He was using his hands
> >to try to bend the lid up and out of the way so he could
> >empty the cranberry sauce onto the plate. He's one who
> >did NOT cut himself, strangely enough. Pretty sure he
> >was first, and Army.
>
> >> Is this something to be concerned about?
>
>
> >> Do I have too much time on my hands?
>
>
> > I laughed with incredulity, but come to think of it,
> >none of these guys has ever seen a C-ration. Guess
> >there's no reason for them to know how to operate a
> >field can opener.
>
> The thing that gets me is the "safety" side cut can opener in the
> kitchen drawer. Why is it safer to have a sharp edge of the can
> surrounding the contents you are digging at, rather than on the metal
> disk you are tossing into the trash; this assumes that you don't make
> a habit of licking the lids clean before you toss them.
> To my mind, they advertise these because they are made to a lower
> standard of accuracy than the old top cut opener.
> Gerry :-)}
> London, Canada
I guess you've never actually used one of these. The "safety opener"
cuts through the crimp, leaving a rounded edge on the can *AND* on the
lid. I have two, one manual and one electric.