CNC Bridgeport with Heidenhein control
Ignoramus21067
says that it worked but the Heidenhein controller is no longer
operational. Whether this is true or not, as always is questionable.
The price is $500.
My question is, can this somehow be fixed or a newer control
installed. Does this require supernatural qualifications, or do you
think that I could do it with some diagnostic and part swapping
skills.
Also could I run this as a regular manual mill.
I need the answer ASAP
Thanks
i
Ignoramus21067
> Someone is offering me a Bridgeport Series II Interact CNC mill. He
> says that it worked but the Heidenhein controller is no longer
> operational. Whether this is true or not, as always is questionable.
Clarification, he says that the monitor is not working. Assuming it is
true and so on
i
Pete C.
You can't run it as a regular mill due to the ballscrews (no braking
action). Repair would range from replacing a monitor (simple), to a full
retrofit with EMC2 or Mach3 (complex).
I'd certainly jump on it at that price. If you were not ~900 miles away,
I'd offer you a bit more to hold it for me and go get it. I've kept an
eye out for a similar deal near me and haven't found one.
co_f...@yahoo.com
21067.invalid> wrote:
Heidenhein uses an etched bar and optical components to watch the
etching. Pretty straight forward and failure proof. We had two
different pick-and-place machines made in England that used that
system. The oldest was 20+ years and the system had never given a
moment's problem. I suspect the owner is correct and the monitor is
the problem. Should be pretty easy to find another RS-170 monitor.
Paul
Ignoramus21067
and pay, and get some pieces, pickup to occur in 1-2 weeks. He seems
to be good.
i
Ignoramus21067
pix are here (tooling was extra)
Karl Townsend
Refitting CNC machines has become my real hobby. I also make a few bucks on
the side consulting on Camsoft refit installs.
$500 is a fair price. The machine is only sutiable for a refit. Don't beat a
dead horse trying to make the old control run.
I assume you're just buying on speculation. But, if you're going into the
refit biz, email me offline.
Karl
Ed Huntress
"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b843f25$0$65856$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
Karl, since Heidenhein switched to PC-architecture controls around ten years
ago (or offered them as an option), what is the chance that they could
supply the necessary bits to convert Iggy's machine into one that's
PC-controlled?
--
Ed Huntress
Ignoramus21067
To put this bluntly, if I can convert this mill to something I can
control with a (preferably Linux) PC, I will keep this mill.
I do not know even the basics of CNC, so I do not know what interfaces
with what and what can be replaced.
Is that a 2 dimensional CNC machine? (I know that it is a dumb idea to
ask at this point in the game).
i
Ed Huntress
"Ignoramus21067" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote in message
news:TNKdnf4WaPCf0RnW...@giganews.com...
If you're asking about the two systems that Heidenhein offered as options
(one was based on their proprietary controller; the other was based on a
"hardened," industrial PC), then the answer is that they both were
multi-axis systems. I don't know how many axes they could control, but they
both were at least 3-axis.
I spent a half-day with them and wrote about both systems around 8 years
ago. Too bad my memory is volatile. <g>
--
Ed Huntress
john
There should be a parameter sheet that goes with the control. Make sure
you get it. IF the battery in the control memory goes dead you have to
punch in all the parameters manually to get the control up and running.
If its only the monitor bad that is an easy fix.
John
Wes
>To put this bluntly, if I can convert this mill to something I can
>control with a (preferably Linux) PC, I will keep this mill.
>
>I do not know even the basics of CNC, so I do not know what interfaces
>with what and what can be replaced.
>
>Is that a 2 dimensional CNC machine? (I know that it is a dumb idea to
>ask at this point in the game).
I'm sure you have run into http://www.linuxcnc.org/
I believe Winston uses emc2.
Jon Ellison is very active with that iirc.
They have a forum:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/lang,english/
There is also an email discussion list.
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
I'm a lurker, I don't have a machine to cnc YET. I'll likely do one of the Seig X?
conversions since a cnc mill is way more interesting to me than a lathe.
Wes
Karl Townsend
> control with a (preferably Linux) PC, I will keep this mill.
>
> I do not know even the basics of CNC, so I do not know what interfaces
> with what and what can be replaced.
>
> Is that a 2 dimensional CNC machine? (I know that it is a dumb idea to
> ask at this point in the game).
Looks like you're interested in EMC2. Pretty steep learning curve but very
capable software. I'm pretty sure this machine has servos with glass encoder
scales for position feedback. It may (probably has) have encoders on the
motor also. Dual loop control is an advanced subject.
Long story short, don't go in to this thinking its a quick easy job. You'll
also spend a fair bit of bucks on servo drivers that work with EMC and run
your servos.
Karl
Ignoramus21067
Karl, if you can give me a rundown of what I would need/how much time
it will take/how much it will cost, it would be greatly appreciated.
i
Ignoramus21067
> On 2010-02-23, Ignoramus21067 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote:
>> Pete and Paul, I agreed to buy this mill and will meet the guy tonight
>> and pay, and get some pieces, pickup to occur in 1-2 weeks. He seems
>> to be good.
>
> pix are here (tooling was extra)
>
More pictures found
RogerN
"Ignoramus21067" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote in message
It depends on what is already there. I replaced my Anilam control with
EMC2, it closes the loop twice, once between the servo motors and tachometer
feedback, the second with the encoder position feedback. I was able to use
the original servos, drives, encoders, etc. A $200 board for the PC was
able to read the encoders and an additional $69 board converted the PWM
output to +/-10V for the servo drive command signal. It took a little time
to read through the configuration files but the setup was fairly straight
forward. There is a lot of good help available for EMC2 and I don't think
you'd have a lot of problem.
RogerN
John
> On 2010-02-23, Ignoramus21067<ignoram...@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2010-02-23, Ignoramus21067<ignoram...@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote:
>>> Pete and Paul, I agreed to buy this mill and will meet the guy tonight
>>> and pay, and get some pieces, pickup to occur in 1-2 weeks. He seems
>>> to be good.
>>
>> pix are here (tooling was extra)
>>
>
> More pictures found
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Bridgeport-Series-II-CNC/
That machine was British made judging by some of the parts.
John
RogerN
"Ignoramus21067" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote in message
Looks like a 3 axis mill, the control upgrade isn't too difficult but you
have to take it one step at a time. If you want to later you can put an
encoder and VFD on the spindle and you can do rigid tapping by synchronizing
the up/down feed with the spindle position. And later you could put a motor
on a dividing head and do 4 axis milling, lots of possibilities, EMC2 is
very configurable.
I remember your programs that you did CNC type motion by hand cranking on a
manual mill, you can write similar programs to produce CNC code if you want.
Anyway, for CNC the controller tells the motors to make the motions you were
doing by hand, but at high speed and in smaller steps.
RogerN
co_f...@yahoo.com
21067.invalid> wrote:
> On 2010-02-23, Ignoramus21067 <ignoramus21...@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> Pete and Paul, I agreed to buy this mill and will meet the guy tonight
> >> and pay, and get some pieces, pickup to occur in 1-2 weeks. He seems
> >> to be good.
>
> > pix are here (tooling was extra)
>
> More pictures found
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Bridgeport-Series-II-CNC/
IS that a Philips screwdriver I see in the collet in the machine?
Ignoramus21067
I will be happy with three axis as a start, if I can make it to
work. I would love to chat with you on the phone for a few minutes
just to get started a bit.
i
Bob La Londe
"Ignoramus21067" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote in message
news:T7SdnQLrNM4OrRnW...@giganews.com...
> Someone is offering me a Bridgeport Series II Interact CNC mill. He
> says that it worked but the Heidenhein controller is no longer
> operational. Whether this is true or not, as always is questionable.
>
> The price is $500.
Heck if if the CNC is totally dead you can completely retrofit it to run
with Mach 3 for 500 with new motors even and add a cheap PC.
$500 for a big mill sounds pretty cheap whether any of the CNC is good or
not.
Ignoramus21067
I need to do a lot of reading about CNC in short order so that I can
understand all the terminology, such as double loop, etc.
If anyone can suggest an intro book into this, I would greatly
appreciate and buy it immediately.
Here's a guy who converted the same exact mill to EMC2
http://machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
i
DoN. Nichols
> says that it worked but the Heidenhein controller is no longer
> operational. Whether this is true or not, as always is questionable.
>
> The price is $500.
>
> My question is, can this somehow be fixed or a newer control
> installed. Does this require supernatural qualifications, or do you
> think that I could do it with some diagnostic and part swapping
> skills.
The repair mostly will take good schematic diagrams and good
troubleshooting information in the manuals, and good test equipment
(logic probes, oscilloscopes, and other such things.)
As for fitting a newer control -- look into the EMC package
running on a modified linux kernel with a real-time sub-kernel which
runs the normal kernel as one task. The software is free. It runs on
boxen which used to be Windows boxen. If the mill in question has servo
motors instead of stepper motors, you will probably need something like
the Servo-2-Go board (which can handle eight axes at need. Three for X,
Y, and Z, another for spindle speed, and two more for something like a
two rotary tables at right angles to each other. :-)
> Also could I run this as a regular manual mill.
Well ... my Bridgeport Series I (BOSS-3) CNC mill has the X-axis
leadscrew (ball screw) locked stationary, and the nut is rotated around
it in the saddle. This suggests that there is no practical way to fit
handwheels to the existing leadscrews. The Y-axis one does rotate, but
there is no exposed way to rotate it unless you take the cover off the
belt guard and fit a handwheel.
I don't know the Series II -- other than that it is larger. And
the Heidenhein controller is newer than what my Series-I came with,
which was a Bridgeport home brewed one built around a LSI-11 CPU and
some custom wire wrap boards (which were later replaced with printed
circuit boards).
The price sounds good, if you can move it and have room for it,
and with your familiarity with linux, the EMC package is probably the
way to go.
Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
DoN. Nichols
> On 2010-02-23, Ignoramus21067 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote:
>> Someone is offering me a Bridgeport Series II Interact CNC mill. He
>> says that it worked but the Heidenhein controller is no longer
>> operational. Whether this is true or not, as always is questionable.
>
> Clarification, he says that the monitor is not working. Assuming it is
> true and so on
If that is all that is wrong -- that should be easy to fix.
DoN. Nichols
Focus was unusually poor for your work.
Looks like servo motors, based on the one to the left of the
head, so if it is more than just the monitor, you may want to go with
the EMC package based on linux.
Tooling looks nice -- including a sacrifical tooling plate to
protect the table.
Enjoy,
Karl Townsend
>> Long story short, don't go in to this thinking its a quick easy job.
>> You'll
>> also spend a fair bit of bucks on servo drivers that work with EMC and
>> run
>> your servos.
>
> Karl, if you can give me a rundown of what I would need/how much time
> it will take/how much it will cost, it would be greatly appreciated.
The major cost here will be your time. A lot to learn. My pure guess would
be about two man months. The more equipment you can reuse the more you save
and the more time you'll spend. Its easier to do a simple machine first,
this one isn't it. Look in to how you do the servo drives with the
Heidenhein scales and what all you'll need to interface all the I/O to your
Linux box. These will be the two largest costs.
You'll end up with a machine you control from a computer keyboard - fine for
hobby work. Most of my experience is with refitting a machine so its a
professional job that is better than new. Costs easily run 15K to do this.
Karl
cavelamb
RogerN
"Ignoramus21067" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote in message
You remember when you made printouts of coordinates and then turned the
handles to those positions to make shapes? That is what CNC control does,
but it will do it on all 3 motors at around 1000 times per second depending
on controls. The double loop, for example, is when the control gets a
feedback from the motor and also gets feedback from the scales on the axis.
The motor feedback is used to sense what the motor is doing, the linear
scales sense the actual table position. These could be the same but if your
ball screws get a tiny amount of backlash, the motor will try to make up for
it.
The servo motor gets power to run forward or backward and has something to
sense turning so it can be controlled, usually through a Proportional,
Integral, Derivative (PID) control loop.
My system uses motor feedback to the motor amplifiers and uses encoder or
scale feedback to the CNC control. So, if my position is off a move is
required, my control will send out a signal to tell the drive to move the
motor at a speed and direction. The amp will send power to the motor and
sense the motors movement, as the position error is smaller, the controller
sends a smaller signal until the motor stops at the correct position.
RogerN
tnik
>>
>> http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Bridgeport-Series-II-CNC/
>
> IS that a Philips screwdriver I see in the collet in the machine?
Looks like a center drill to me..
Pete C.
Load up and run EMC2 or Mach3 in demo mode with no machine. I use Mach3,
mostly because it was ready for prime time before EMC2 was. When I
started with CNC I tried EMC (EMC2 wasn't out then) and Mach3 side by
side on identical PCs controlling the same machine (at different times)
and chose Mach3 as the more polished solution. EMC2 should be more on
par with Mach3, but I haven't tried it since I already have Mach3 and
the hobby license is unlimited.
CNC controls are a *lot* simpler than you might think, and a little
fiddling and you should have it figured out very quickly. The G code
that CNC controllers operate on is nothing more than simple positioning
commands for the most part. Where is gets complicated is in the CAD/CAM
end and generating code for full 3D work, and you really don't need to
get fully into that for hobby work. Most hobby work tends to be 2.5D,
not full 3D and that makes it quite a bit simpler. Look at SheetCAM for
an example of a decent 2.5D CAM package.
For hobby work, you'll find that the few things you really need 3D moves
for are usually ones that are easy enough to hand code. There are
specific G code commands for arcs and stuff which are useful if you're
hand coding, but they aren't typically used by CAM programs which mostly
generate the code as line segments since code length isn't a concern on
an modern CNC control.
Ignoramus26960
>
I have not brought it home yet, but it does come with a controller
and, if I am to believe the seller, the only thing wrong is the
display that has a bad transformer (which is something weird and
cannot be replaced).
i
Ignoramus26960
OK, I think that I understand that. I will look for some webpage that
described architecture of a CNC system. I already have all the manuals
in my possession.
i
Ignoramus26960
> Load up and run EMC2 or Mach3 in demo mode with no machine. I use Mach3,
> mostly because it was ready for prime time before EMC2 was. When I
> started with CNC I tried EMC (EMC2 wasn't out then) and Mach3 side by
> side on identical PCs controlling the same machine (at different times)
> and chose Mach3 as the more polished solution. EMC2 should be more on
> par with Mach3, but I haven't tried it since I already have Mach3 and
> the hobby license is unlimited.
>
> CNC controls are a *lot* simpler than you might think, and a little
> fiddling and you should have it figured out very quickly. The G code
> that CNC controllers operate on is nothing more than simple positioning
> commands for the most part. Where is gets complicated is in the CAD/CAM
> end and generating code for full 3D work, and you really don't need to
> get fully into that for hobby work. Most hobby work tends to be 2.5D,
> not full 3D and that makes it quite a bit simpler. Look at SheetCAM for
> an example of a decent 2.5D CAM package.
>
> For hobby work, you'll find that the few things you really need 3D moves
> for are usually ones that are easy enough to hand code. There are
> specific G code commands for arcs and stuff which are useful if you're
> hand coding, but they aren't typically used by CAM programs which mostly
> generate the code as line segments since code length isn't a concern on
> an modern CNC control.
Thank you Pete. Are there some provisions for using this mill in kind
of manual mode. Let's say that I just want to drill a hole in a part
and mill off a corner, something that is easy to do with a manual
mill. How much harder would it be to do with CNC. Maybe with keyboard
arrows or some such. The question probably shows my ignorance, but I
want to know how much I am giving up by switching to CNC.
i
Ignoramus26960
So, Karl, what would you (with your skills and all) do with this
bridgeport, would you just try to restore its Interact 2 controls?
i
Pete C.
Two "manual" functions:
MDI - Manual data input, basically a CLI interface to the G code
interpreter. You just enter a single G code command at a time like "G01
X4.5 Y3.7 F150" which moves to the specified X and Y position at the
specified 150 IPM feed rate.
Jog wheel - You can manually move one axis at a time using the jog wheel
and you can set the jog steps to increments like 1", .1", .01", .001".
Once you get familiar with G code, jog will only be used for "touch off"
functions to establish your zero, and then you'll use MDI input for
anything manual, or just pop up a text editor and write a quick chuck of
G code then load and run it.
I haven't looked at the EMC2 docs, but I know there is a decent G code
reference section in the Mach3 docs you could download and look at. G
code is a standard, so it's pretty much the same for any control (they
do have custom extensions on some).
Pete C.
My recommendation would be to use the existing controls if it's a simple
thing like replacing a monitor. Then investigate those controls to see
if the servo drives and encoders would be reusable and plan the EMC2 or
Mach3 retrofit while you use the current controls. When the current
controls finally die and can't be repaired you'll be ready for the
retrofit.
Bob La Londe
news:-LudnTV_PNwh1BjW...@giganews.com...
Mach 3 has "Wizards" included in the licensed version that will allow you to
simple code very quickly for mill drilling, pocketing and surfacing.
Karl Townsend
>> bridgeport, would you just try to restore its Interact 2 controls?
If you're looking to make some money:
I'd part the machine out. The servos, scales, and head - sold separately -
will bring you about a 4:1 return.
If you want a CNC machine:
I'd spend a short fixed amount of time, say 2 days tops, trying to make the
old control run. It it works, great, but it won't last long. Either way,
start learning EMC2, you're used to linux so its your best bet.
Iggy, you're in the heart of a dying industrial machine town. You can find a
professional working CNC machine real cheap. IMHO, spend maybe 5K and get a
real CNC machine. Have Gunner tell you what to get.
Karl
Pete C.
I don't think Iggy has the space or desire for a full VMC for hobby
stuff. Even a small nice machine like a Mycenter 1 is pretty big
compared to the Bridgeport.
Ignoramus26960
None of the full CNC machines will fit. If my spouse sees me bring one
in, I may have to sleep inside of those machines.
The Series II Bridgeport will fit, with some adjustments, such as
getting rid of some of my stuff for sale.
If I can get it to work, and if I can use it for small hobby projects
that one normally does with a manual mill (like drill three holes and
round two corners), as well as for CNC projects, I will be very happy
and it will be a useful upgrade over my existing Bridgeport.
i
Ignoramus26960
>>> bridgeport, would you just try to restore its Interact 2 controls?
>
> If you're looking to make some money:
>
> I'd part the machine out. The servos, scales, and head - sold separately -
> will bring you about a 4:1 return.
That's a great baseline. I do like to part things out. When I was a
kid, I took a lot of my toys apart.
> If you want a CNC machine:
>
> I'd spend a short fixed amount of time, say 2 days tops, trying to make the
> old control run. It it works, great, but it won't last long. Either way,
> start learning EMC2, you're used to linux so its your best bet.
Karl, I had a huge discussion with a guy at Heidenhain USA today. He
was there for 29 years. We spent 30 minutes talking and he gave me the
complete skinny on Heidenhain controls, fate of the Bridgeport
company, etc.
It is too much to repeat in a short post, but in his opinion, if I can
just swap the display for LCD and that would fix the problem, it is
the best course of action.
He told me do not buy a used CRT monitor. What he says is that after
all these years, the monitors are flaky, but the rest of the control
is good and reliable stuff.
The issue with the monitor is that the monitor is EGA, which is a
completely obsolete standard by now. It is nothing really special,
just an EGA monitor that fits the enclosure.
So really, any EGA monitor will work, and if I can find one that fits
the enclosure nicely, it is a plus.
The Heidenhain guy told that it could be either a bad monitor or a bad
graphics card. He explained me how I can test if the flyback
transformer is working on the monitor and how I can narrow the problem
down. Replacing the card is something that they do, but it is big
bucks and moving to a PC based control makes perfect sense.
I fI can spend $300-400 and get a suitable EGA LCD monitor, I would
rather do that.
> Iggy, you're in the heart of a dying industrial machine town. You can find a
> professional working CNC machine real cheap. IMHO, spend maybe 5K and get a
> real CNC machine. Have Gunner tell you what to get.
I am totally intimidated by their size, and complexity, and cost, and
weight, a Series II is as far as I can go.
i
Pete C.
Been a long time since I messed with EGA, but I recall that was just TTL
RGB and separate H V sync signals? Timing probably well within what any
modern LCD monitor will sync to. I'd think you should be able to adapt
it pretty easily.
Ignoramus26960
Are you saying that I should just plug in a VGA LCD monitor into a 9
pin EGA output? And it will work??? Why all the fuss then? Somehow I
think that the world would not miss something this great. Am I missing
anything?
i
Pete C.
Er, no. But I think building an adapter may not be very difficult.
You'll have to look up the signal specs for both to see.
Pete C.
I can't seem to find good detailed specs at the moment, however:
EGA uses TTL signals and has separate H and V sync signals as well as
two bits each for R, G and B, hence the 64 colors it had.
VGA also has separate H and V sync signals (can't find signal level
specs), and has three analog R, G and B signals.
Get out your scope and check the signal levels of the VGA output of a
PC. You should be able to do a simple resistor ladder D/A converter type
setup to convert the two TTL color bits into a four level analog signal
for the VGA monitor to take. The HV sync timings will be within the
capabilities of the VGA monitor, you may or may not need to adjust their
levels.
A key thing to keep in mind here is that this is a CNC control, not a
gaming PC and getting those 64 EGA colors to display perfectly doesn't
matter as long as they are readable.
Jon Elson
> Karl, since Heidenhein switched to PC-architecture controls around ten years
> ago (or offered them as an option), what is the chance that they could
> supply the necessary bits to convert Iggy's machine into one that's
> PC-controlled?
>
Heidenhain would LOVE to offer this service, but you'd better be seated
for the price. Competition has driven the price way down, but I'd take
a wild guess and say it is at least $15000 for a complete refit. For
reliability reasons, they won't want to reuse any of the control
hardware, even if it is in fine shape. So, strip it all off and replace.
There are a number of other retrofit outfits that would be cheaper, but
all the turnkey retrofits are going to run over $3K, for sure. That's
the Ajax, you get a box of parts and a printed manual, and a note saying
"Don't call the factory, we will NOT accept your call except for broken
parts. If you wanted support, you should have bought from Centroid."
The Centroid control is same as the Ajax, except you pay $10K so you can
call them when you run into trouble.
There are much more affordable do-it-yourself retrofit paths.
Jon
Jon Elson
> To put this bluntly, if I can convert this mill to something I can
> control with a (preferably Linux) PC, I will keep this mill.
>
Look at linuxcnc.org, and then you need to decide how to drive the motors.
> I do not know even the basics of CNC, so I do not know what interfaces
> with what and what can be replaced.
>
> Is that a 2 dimensional CNC machine? (I know that it is a dumb idea to
> ask at this point in the game).
2d vs. 3D is mostly a factor of the control, not the machine itself.
Anything recent (EMC2, Mach, Centroid, etc.) will be capable of full 3D
contouring.
I assume your Heidenhain control had DC brush servo motors. It may have
encoders on the motor, or tachometers, as well as the linear scales
somebody mentioned.
Jon
Jon Elson
> There should be a parameter sheet that goes with the control. Make sure
> you get it. IF the battery in the control memory goes dead you have to
> punch in all the parameters manually to get the control up and running.
> If its only the monitor bad that is an easy fix.
It is rather unlikely the control will survive the move without some new
problem coming up. The older the control, the more fragile they get, as
the number of separate circuit boards and connections was much higher on
the early ones. This is probably a mid-80's control at the latest, and
unless you were a minicomputer hardware tech in a previous life, I
don''t think you want to get involved it trying to keep it running.
I adopted a 1978-vintage Allen-Bradley CNC control in 1997 and managed
to get it running, which was a HUGE ordeal, requiring disassembling the
paper tapes for the executive program so i could modify it, building a
"BTR" so I could dispense with paper tapes, etc. But, it had major
breakdowns 3 times in 9 months, and I was getting TIRED of maintaining
the DAMN thing! Your Heidenhain control is likely a bit newer, but
still VERY much in the aged category now, roughly 20+ years old.
So, I would strongly recommend a retrofit, too. Depending on whose
servo amps are in it, they may be able to be reused, which will make the
retrofit easier. Depending on the type of position encoder on the
machine, these may be reused, too. With Heidenhain, there may be signal
converter/interpolator boxes associated especially with linear scales
that need to be kept.
There are several servo interfaces available for EMC that you can choose
from (I make one kind).
Jon
Jon Elson
> So, Karl, what would you (with your skills and all) do with this
> bridgeport, would you just try to restore its Interact 2 controls?
Depends on the condition, how long it has been since it last ran, and
whether the prints for the boards come with it. If no prints, you are
in a HEAP of trouble.
My experience tells me to not bother unless all it needs is a new video
monitor AFTER!!!! you get it moved to your location. If it has serious
problems, it can become a total time sink.
I've had GREAT results with EMC, and would NEVER go back to the
proprietary control.
Jon
Jon Elson
> Karl, if you can give me a rundown of what I would need/how much time
> it will take/how much it will cost, it would be greatly appreciated.
You need to get into it to see what is there, and what it looks like
(mouse-eaten wiring, burned parts, etc.)
First, ID the motors, and see what velocity feedback it may have there
(encoder on motor, tach, etc.)
Second, ID the servo amps - just follow motor armature wires back into
control cabinet, and wherever they stop should be the servo amp.
Westamp and Servo Dynamics were the big players at that time, and a lot
of control builders used them. Docs are still available.
See if the servo power supply needs 3-phase or can run off single.
3rd, ID the main position encoders. With a Heidenhain control, it is
likely to be linear encoders on the machine table. But, Heidenhain had
their own proprietary current-output scheme for encoders. Some of their
encoders had very low native resolution, and the sine-wave current
outputs were fed into interpolator boards to increase resolution. If
so, you want to save those boards.
Once you have this info, you can start looking at interface hardware to
connect to it. You can also decide whether to use the servo amps, or
scrap them.
Jon
Jon Elson
>
>
> "Ignoramus21067" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21067.invalid> wrote in message
> news:T7SdnQLrNM4OrRnW...@giganews.com...
>> Someone is offering me a Bridgeport Series II Interact CNC mill. He
>> says that it worked but the Heidenhein controller is no longer
>> operational. Whether this is true or not, as always is questionable.
>>
>> The price is $500.
>
>
> Heck if if the CNC is totally dead you can completely retrofit it to run
> with Mach 3 for 500 with new motors even and add a cheap PC.
>
> $500 for a big mill sounds pretty cheap whether any of the CNC is good
> or not.
stepper. $500 with new motors? Do you know how big a Series-II is? It
stands about 8 feet tall and weighs 5000 Lbs. It uses NEMA size 42
motors driving the leadscrews 1:1.
Jon
Jon Elson
> I need to do a lot of reading about CNC in short order so that I can
> understand all the terminology, such as double loop, etc.
>
Double-loop means that there are two encoders per axis, a shaft encoder
on the motor and a linear encoder on the machine table. Really, the
motor encoder is used to sense velocity. I am guessing from vintage and
make that your machine more likely has a tachometer on the motor, not a
second encoder. The tachometer feeds velocity info back to the velocity
servo amplifier, and not to the CNC control.
> If anyone can suggest an intro book into this, I would greatly
> appreciate and buy it immediately.
>
> Here's a guy who converted the same exact mill to EMC2
>
> http://machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
OK, a TNC-151, that's what I thought the control would be. He mentions
tachometers and rotary encoders, no linear. He apparently re-used the
servo amps. Looks like a single-phase transformer, lucky!
Jon
Jim Wilkins
26960.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> Thank you Pete. Are there some provisions for using this mill in kind
> of manual mode. Let's say that I just want to drill a hole in a part
> and mill off a corner, something that is easy to do with a manual
> i-
I use an EZ Trak Bridgeport manually when reworking a part to scribed
lines and punch marks. The Jog knob substitutes for the table cranks.
After a little practice to remember the button sequences it isn't that
much different from using a manual DRO machine.
The CRT died on that one too.
An example of an EGA to VGA adapter:
http://www.controlcable.com/custom.asp?i=65033
jsw
Ed Huntress
"Jon Elson" <jme...@wustl.edu> wrote in message
news:vJKdnZ0eCundLxjW...@giganews.com...
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>
>> Karl, since Heidenhein switched to PC-architecture controls around ten
>> years ago (or offered them as an option), what is the chance that they
>> could supply the necessary bits to convert Iggy's machine into one that's
>> PC-controlled?
>>
>
> Heidenhain would LOVE to offer this service, but you'd better be seated
> for the price. Competition has driven the price way down, but I'd take a
> wild guess and say it is at least $15000 for a complete refit.
<THUD!>
> For reliability reasons, they won't want to reuse any of the control
> hardware, even if it is in fine shape. So, strip it all off and replace.
>
> There are a number of other retrofit outfits that would be cheaper, but
> all the turnkey retrofits are going to run over $3K, for sure. That's the
> Ajax, you get a box of parts and a printed manual, and a note saying
> "Don't call the factory, we will NOT accept your call except for broken
> parts. If you wanted support, you should have bought from Centroid."
> The Centroid control is same as the Ajax, except you pay $10K so you can
> call them when you run into trouble.
>
> There are much more affordable do-it-yourself retrofit paths.
>
> Jon
That's good to hear. <g> Retrofits have come a long way. I hope Iggy's
retrofit is a successful one. I'm looking forward to hearing how a
non-specialist makes out with it.
--
Ed Huntress
Wayne Weedon
>> http://machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
> OK, a TNC-151, that's what I thought the control would be. He mentions
> tachometers and rotary encoders, no linear. He apparently re-used the
> servo amps. Looks like a single-phase transformer, lucky!
Jon
These machines generally used SEM Servo Motors and Bosch drives.
Wayne...
Ignoramus26960
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>
>> Karl, since Heidenhein switched to PC-architecture controls around ten years
>> ago (or offered them as an option), what is the chance that they could
>> supply the necessary bits to convert Iggy's machine into one that's
>> PC-controlled?
>>
>
> Heidenhain would LOVE to offer this service, but you'd better be seated
> for the price. Competition has driven the price way down, but I'd take
> a wild guess and say it is at least $15000 for a complete refit. For
You were close. $13,000 for a model 320 control.
Invested for 30 years, it will amount for one year of my retirement.
> reliability reasons, they won't want to reuse any of the control
> hardware, even if it is in fine shape. So, strip it all off and replace.
>
> There are a number of other retrofit outfits that would be cheaper, but
> all the turnkey retrofits are going to run over $3K, for sure. That's
> the Ajax, you get a box of parts and a printed manual, and a note saying
> "Don't call the factory, we will NOT accept your call except for broken
> parts. If you wanted support, you should have bought from Centroid."
> The Centroid control is same as the Ajax, except you pay $10K so you can
> call them when you run into trouble.
>
> There are much more affordable do-it-yourself retrofit paths.
I thikn that I should try to get this one fixed first.
i
Ignoramus26960
I am hoping that I could fix that system and use it as-is.
i
Ignoramus26960
>
>> There should be a parameter sheet that goes with the control. Make sure
>> you get it. IF the battery in the control memory goes dead you have to
>> punch in all the parameters manually to get the control up and running.
>> If its only the monitor bad that is an easy fix.
> It is rather unlikely the control will survive the move without some new
> problem coming up.
Can you explain what you mean.
> There are several servo interfaces available for EMC that you can choose
> from (I make one kind).
Tell us about it Jon.
i
Ignoramus26960
How hard is it to take the head off to make it stand lower? 8 ft will
not fit through my garage door, fsck
i
Ignoramus26960
If the controls are single phase, I could then convert the whole mill
to 1 phase, right? Maybe with just one 220v relay to drive a vfd from
a 220v signal? (I want to disrupt the control as little as possible)
i
DoN. Nichols
> On 2010-02-23, Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> "Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4b843f25$0$65856$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
>>> Iggy,
>>>
>>> Refitting CNC machines has become my real hobby. I also make a few bucks
>>> on the side consulting on Camsoft refit installs.
>>>
>>> $500 is a fair price. The machine is only sutiable for a refit. Don't beat
>>> a dead horse trying to make the old control run.
>>>
>>> I assume you're just buying on speculation. But, if you're going into the
>>> refit biz, email me offline.
>>>
>>> Karl
>>
>> Karl, since Heidenhein switched to PC-architecture controls around ten years
>> ago (or offered them as an option), what is the chance that they could
>> supply the necessary bits to convert Iggy's machine into one that's
>> PC-controlled?
>>
>
> control with a (preferably Linux) PC, I will keep this mill.
You certainly should be able to.
Since the existing motors are servo motors, not stepper motors,
you will need a card for the computer which may be fairly expensive
(about what you likely paid for the machine and the tooling).
And you may have to make some intermediate circuitry to feed the
pulses from the Heidenhein scales into the computer. Other and later
brands tend to output shaped square waves (two -- at a 90 degree phase
shift) so you can count how far it moved, and in which direction. The
older Heidenhein ones (such as some that I have) output a sine wave, and
need special shaping circuitry before feeding it to the counting
circuits.
> I do not know even the basics of CNC, so I do not know what interfaces
> with what and what can be replaced.
O.K. You will have motors to move the axes. On many
inexpensive home conversion projects, it will typically be using stepper
motors, and the position will simply be inferred from counting the
pulses fed to the steppers -- assuming that they never miss a step.
This also applies to the early Bridgeport machines like the BOSS-3
Series I which has big heavy steppers, and mag amps to control the
voltage to the steppers so higher speeds get higher voltages, and slower
speeds get lower voltages to avoid overheating the windings. The higher
speeds need the higher voltages to overcome the inductive
characteristics of the windings.
Servo motors are a very low inertia DC motor, or special AC
servos. The ones which I have experience with are the DC ones. Both
have a tach generator so the speed can be monitored and controlled.
To move at a specified speed with steppers needs a train of
pulses at the right intervals as long as it is moving.
To move at the same specified speed with servos, a command
voltage from the computer via a D/A converter goes to the servo amp,
which maintains the speed based on the tach feedback, and the computer
can be busy doing other things, and only check every so often that the
motion is correct. It does this by encoding scale which generate pulse trains
with motion -- or with an encoder disc on the end of the motor. This is
typically fed to a counter which can be read by the computer to verify
that it is where it should be.
> Is that a 2 dimensional CNC machine? (I know that it is a dumb idea to
> ask at this point in the game).
It is either 2-1/2 axis or 3-axis -- depending purely on the
controller computer.
2-1/2 axis allows moving to a given Z axis position and then
cutting normally in the other two, while 3 axis allows all three axes to
be changing at the same time, resulting in very complex workpiece
shapes.
You can also add other axes such as rotary tables for even more
complex operations.
Check out http://www.linuxcnc.org/ for a download of a live CD
of the most recent version, and lots of other information.
Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Ignoramus26960
> On Feb 24, 10:46?am, Ignoramus26960 <ignoramus26...@NOSPAM.
Jim, sorry for a dumb, repetitive, redundant question, but I just want to make
sure. This thing converts incoming EGA signal to outgoing VGA
signal. So I can plug in a regular 15 inch VGA monitor (which I have)
into the EGA output of the Heidenhein control, using this converter
int he middle? Right?
i
Pete C.
It's not clear what it does really. From what I've found, the VGA RGB
signals are .7V p-p, and sending raw TTL 5V RGB signals to those lines
probably would be bad. Of course there could be little resistor ladder
D/A converters molded in there somewhere, but I wouldn't count on it.
Pete C.
If it's the same machine as the one the other guy converted that you
provided a link to, it looks pretty east to remove the entire head/ram
assembly from the base, if a bit high and heavy.
Obviously there will be various cables to disconnect if you need to
fully remove it, but perhaps you can manage to suspend it from an engine
hoist off to the side while pushing the base under the doorway and then
reinstall it.
Jim Wilkins
> > An example of an EGA to VGA adapter:
> >http://www.controlcable.com/custom.asp?i=65033
>
> Jim, sorry for a dumb, repetitive, redundant question, but I just want to make
> sure. This thing converts incoming EGA signal to outgoing VGA
> signal. So I can plug in a regular 15 inch VGA monitor (which I have)
> into the EGA output of the Heidenhein control, using this converter
> int he middle? Right?
That is a question for the older smart guy at the local computer store
where you buy it. They do exist and aren't expensive.
Go when they aren't too busy and leave yourself some time. My last
simple question lead to a story about back when he worked at Intel.
Another one talked for an hour past closing until his worried wife
called.
jsw,
who practiced looking attentive for long periods for this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Milk_Train_Doesn't_Stop_Here_Anymore
The hard part was keeping my eyes up on her face.
Ignoramus26960
http://www.machmotion.com/CNC-Controls-Milling-Machine-Controls/c37_38/index.html
specifically this
Pete C.
The Machmotion stuff is based on the Mach3 CNC control software which
runs under Windows. I use Mach3 as do a lot of other folks and we all
like it. Obviously it costs more than free EMC2 under free Linux.
In any event, you would likely need the "CNC Mill Control Analog"
package to work with your existing servo motors and drives. You may also
need encoders depending on exactly what your mill has for feedback and
if it is compatible with the quadrature encoder inputs in the analog
control package. The package in your link requires existing digital
drives and your mill will have older analog drives.
I will note that Machmotion takes components such as the Mach3 software,
motion controllers (I think that one is from Geckodrives), and various
other components and packages them in more industrial ready kits. You
can buy the same components separately and do your own integration and
enclosure retrofitting and save some $.
Wild_Bill
to using a pendant control on a robotic machine, that allows the operator to
take control of the robot's motion capabilities.
With some robots, there is a "teach" mode, where the operator can save the
motions of a task.
I don't know that answer, but I'm curious if any home shop machines have a
pendant mode.
--
WB
.........
"Ignoramus26960" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.26960.invalid> wrote in message
news:-LudnTV_PNwh1BjW...@giganews.com...
>
> Thank you Pete. Are there some provisions for using this mill in kind
> of manual mode. Let's say that I just want to drill a hole in a part
> and mill off a corner, something that is easy to do with a manual
> mill. How much harder would it be to do with CNC. Maybe with keyboard
> arrows or some such. The question probably shows my ignorance, but I
> want to know how much I am giving up by switching to CNC.
>
> i
axolotl
> jsw,
> who practiced looking attentive for long periods for this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Milk_Train_Doesn't_Stop_Here_Anymore
> The hard part was keeping my eyes up on her face.
Nice figure, Hmm?
Kevin Gallimore
Michael A. Terrell
"Pete C." wrote:
>
> Ignoramus26960 wrote:
> >
> > On 2010-02-24, Pete C. <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ignoramus26960 wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >>> So, Karl, what would you (with your skills and all) do with this
> > >> >>> bridgeport, would you just try to restore its Interact 2 controls?
> > >> >
No. SVGA is analog. EGA is an odd monitor choice, since they
weren't in use for long. It uses a TTL level interface. Wikipedia has
the various pinouts to help identify the monitor. There are several
pins that tell the video card what type of monitor is in use by pattern
of grounding of the 'ID' pins. MDA, Hercules, CGA and EGA used a DE9
connector, with different pinouts. Some of the scan rates inverted the
Vertical or Horizontal sync, as well.
The only thing worse was the PGA 'standard'. Luckily, that turkey
died a quick & horrible death.
--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
Pete C.
Looking further on their site, if I were going to spend the money, I'd
get their "Mill kit - TECO" which includes both the control and complete
new AC brushless servo motors and drives for nearly the same price as
the one to retrofit the existing old drives. With that kit the whole
conversion would probably take a long weekend.
Ignoramus26960
Pete, the thought is cool, but I think that this Series II takes next
sie motors, not 30 inch/lbs.
co_f...@yahoo.com
26960.invalid> wrote:
Check this out. They show currently out of stock, but my have more by
now.
http://www.jammaboards.com/store/cga/ega/yuv-to-vga-converter-pcb-gbs-8220/prod_291.html
Paul
Pete C.
I'd try to find the spec for the existing ones. Those TECO ones are ~30
continuous and quite a bit more intermittent. They are size 42 and
should mount right up. A call to MM should confirm if they are suitable
for a Series II that isn't being pushed at high production feed rates.
Ignoramus26960
> On Feb 24, 2:15?pm, Ignoramus26960 <ignoramus26...@NOSPAM.
Here's one that looks like it is in stock, though I cannot find a link
to buy it. I will call them tomorrow.
http://www.arcademvs.com/ARCADE_ACESSERIOR.htm
i
Jon Elson
velocity servo amps that take +/- 10 V analog
velocity command signals. It is a very flexible
board set, meaning you can mix and match boards
for the actual number of I/Os you need. It runs
$780 for the
basic 4-axis set, that gives 4 encoder counters, 4
16-bit 10 V DACs and 16 digital inputs and 8 SSR
output locations, plus an E-stop circuit.
See
http://pico-systems.com/oscrc4/catalog/index.php?cPath=8
for a look at this system.
I also have another system that is for use with my
own servo amps, which use
digital PWM commands to the amps. This is here
http://pico-systems.com/oscrc4/catalog/index.php?cPath=3
and the controller board is $250, and the servo
amps are $125 each for the brush
motor version. If your servo amps are in good
shape, velocity servo amps with tachometer
feedback can be VERY smooth, and reusing them will
save you some
rewiring.
The cost between the two systems is not all that
different.
Jon
Jon Elson
>
> Thank you Pete. Are there some provisions for using this mill in kind
> of manual mode. Let's say that I just want to drill a hole in a part
> and mill off a corner, something that is easy to do with a manual
> mill. How much harder would it be to do with CNC. Maybe with keyboard
> arrows or some such. The question probably shows my ignorance, but I
> want to know how much I am giving up by switching to CNC.
Some of the old tape-NC controls were not at all
set up for manual machining.
Later CNC controls with CRTs were not too bad, and
your TNC-151 should
be in that era. They have jog buttons and maybe
even an MPG to crank
like a manual machine's handwheels. Pretty much
all PC retrofits will
also allow you to do that. I used the jog keys on
the keyboard for a while,
but put MPGs on my two machines now and find them
to be a great addition.
But, when manually facing off a surface or
something, I still use the jog keys
to get a constant feed rate.
My tabletop milimill has handwheels, and EMC works
as a DRO when it is in
E-stop, so I could use it completely manually, but
I never seem to do that.
I run it with the jog pendant instead. (I bought
this machine for on the road
demos, and never did any real machining on it
until I put a spindle encoder
on it, now I use it for rigid tapping 4-40 holes
on some of my parts. So, that is
pretty much its only actual machining it gets.)
Somebody mentioned putting a spindle encoder on
your BOSS, but the way Bridgeport built their
machine heads, if it didn't come with a spindle
encoder, you will find it difficult to install
one. That's why I don't have a spindle encoder on
my Bridgeport. I think the only clean way to do
it is to put a pair of gear tooth sensors through
the side of the housing to pick up quadrature off
the bull gear, and add a magnet sensor for the
spindle index.
The way the spindle slides in the spline, and the
back gear and direct drive clutch all nest
together, there just isn't any place to add a
sprocket to pick up the direct spindle position
for an encoder. I suspect you have a 4-J head on
that machine, it may have a little more room in it
than my 1-J head.
Jon
Jon Elson
> If the controls are single phase, I could then convert the whole mill
> to 1 phase, right? Maybe with just one 220v relay to drive a vfd from
> a 220v signal? (I want to disrupt the control as little as possible)
Well, I was going from a picture of a "similar"
machine, so yours could be different. But, yes,
if the control all runs off single phase, then
feed it 240 single phase,
and rig appropriate relays to control a VFD.
Might as well leave the VFD power
on continuously, and switch the control inputs to
the VFD (forward and reverse).
Jon
Ignoramus2215
This is exactly what I would do wrt a VFD. Fortunately, I have a VFD
handy in the shed. This is the smallest one of my problems.
I also do not need rigid tapping and will not put an encoder on the
head.
i
Ignoramus2215
>
>>
>> Thank you Pete. Are there some provisions for using this mill in kind
>> of manual mode. Let's say that I just want to drill a hole in a part
>> and mill off a corner, something that is easy to do with a manual
>> mill. How much harder would it be to do with CNC. Maybe with keyboard
>> arrows or some such. The question probably shows my ignorance, but I
>> want to know how much I am giving up by switching to CNC.
> Some of the old tape-NC controls were not at all set up for manual
> machining. Later CNC controls with CRTs were not too bad, and your
> TNC-151 should be in that era. They have jog buttons and maybe even
> an MPG to crank like a manual machine's handwheels.
What is an MPG?
> Pretty much all PC retrofits will also allow you to do that. I used
> the jog keys on the keyboard for a while, but put MPGs on my two
> machines now and find them to be a great addition. But, when
> manually facing off a surface or something, I still use the jog keys
> to get a constant feed rate.
I am cool with doing it with keys or even command line. I am a command
line kind of person.
i
Jon Elson
> So, Karl, what would you (with your skills and all) do with this
> bridgeport, would you just try to restore its Interact 2 controls?
I gather you've already bought the thing. So,
part of the decision
is already done.
Sure, see if you can get the old control to fire
up at all, you should be able to tell from lights
on the control panel, etc. Maybe scope some of
the EGA signals to determine if H and V sync is
coming out of the 9-pin plug. If so, go ahead and
get the EGA-VGA converter and see what the control
can do, whether it suits your one-off machining needs.
I don't know the TNC-151 control, it apparently
came in two flavors, one with G-code and not much
else, and one with Heidenhain's proprietary
language and their conversational machining
package. The conversational thing may be what you
would find useful. Practically no need for
CAD/CAM in that case.
If the control doesn't fire up after the move,
then you have to see how much time you want to put
into finding out what is wrong. It could be a
board wiggled loose during the move, or much more
serious. Connectors and tantalum capacitors are
the two big problem areas in these older systems.
Jon
Ignoramus2215
>
>> So, Karl, what would you (with your skills and all) do with this
>> bridgeport, would you just try to restore its Interact 2 controls?
> I gather you've already bought the thing. So,
> part of the decision
> is already done.
>
> Sure, see if you can get the old control to fire up at all, you
> should be able to tell from lights on the control panel, etc. Maybe
> scope some of the EGA signals to determine if H and V sync is coming
> out of the 9-pin plug. If so, go ahead and get the EGA-VGA
> converter and see what the control can do, whether it suits your
> one-off machining needs. I don't know the TNC-151 control, it
> apparently came in two flavors, one with G-code and not much else,
> and one with Heidenhain's proprietary language and their
> conversational machining package. The conversational thing may be
> what you would find useful. Practically no need for CAD/CAM in that
> case.
It has conversational. I was reading manuals yesterday (I already took
possession of tooling and manuals)
> If the control doesn't fire up after the move, then you have to see
> how much time you want to put into finding out what is wrong. It
> could be a board wiggled loose during the move, or much more
> serious. Connectors and tantalum capacitors are the two big problem
> areas in these older systems.
I will be sure to post this.
i
Pete C.
Ignoramus2215 wrote:
>
> On 2010-02-25, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:
> > Ignoramus26960 wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Thank you Pete. Are there some provisions for using this mill in kind
> >> of manual mode. Let's say that I just want to drill a hole in a part
> >> and mill off a corner, something that is easy to do with a manual
> >> mill. How much harder would it be to do with CNC. Maybe with keyboard
> >> arrows or some such. The question probably shows my ignorance, but I
> >> want to know how much I am giving up by switching to CNC.
>
> > Some of the old tape-NC controls were not at all set up for manual
> > machining. Later CNC controls with CRTs were not too bad, and your
> > TNC-151 should be in that era. They have jog buttons and maybe even
> > an MPG to crank like a manual machine's handwheels.
>
> What is an MPG?
MPG = Manual Pulse Generator, the manual hand wheel input to the CNC
control. You select the axis you want to move, usually with a rotary
selector switch, and the step per MPG wheel click usually with another
rotary switch.
>
> > Pretty much all PC retrofits will also allow you to do that. I used
> > the jog keys on the keyboard for a while, but put MPGs on my two
> > machines now and find them to be a great addition. But, when
> > manually facing off a surface or something, I still use the jog keys
> > to get a constant feed rate.
>
> I am cool with doing it with keys or even command line. I am a command
> line kind of person.
MDI a.k.a. CLI is the way to go generally for manual operations beyond
edge finding.
Pete C.
After the move and before even applying power, go through and unplug and
reseat every single connector and plugable card in the machine. When
cards are unplugged look for any socketed chips and press them to ensure
they are seated. Tighten every terminal strip or similar connection.
This whole thing should take perhaps an hour, but can save a lot of
headaches.
I had a computer system (big old VAX) that was moved and stored
unpowered for about six months. When I powered it up and got it booted
it had all kinds of strange issues for a couple weeks. I then powered it
down and did the plug and reseat thing on every component (took me about
45 min). After that it booted and didn't have a single problem for
several years of 24x365 operation after that until it was retired.
DoN. Nichols
Assuming that the monitor supports the scan rates (and thus the
resolution) that the EGA connector produces. I think that pretty much
any multisync monitor can go down that far. Double check for LCD
monitors, as not all will support all lower rates.
If you can find a LCD screen which will handle the proper rates,
that strikes me as the one which makes sense to use in a shop
environment -- less surface area of ventilation holes for chips to fall
into -- and less power consumption as well.
The pinouts for the two interfaces are:
<http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php/EGA>
<http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php/VGA_15_Pin>
Note that the EGA output is at TTL levels, while the VGA is 0.7
V P-P at 75 Ohm impedance, so a voltage divider on each color signal
will be needed -- and perhaps another divider for the secondary color
outputs on EGA to give differing intensities. I haven't bothered to
check whether there will also need to be inversion of sync signals. For
that -- if needed -- you would need some active circuits and thus a
power source.
But since the converters are available for not much money, that
strikes me as the way to go.
DoN. Nichols
Well ... the one thing which worries me about that one is the
term "digital servo" -- which suggests that it really needs something
which accepts a pulse train like a stepper drive does, rather than an
analog voltage which says "move at this speed". There are Gecko drives
which do this for brush type motors, which your machine appears to have,
but I would personally prefer a true analog servo driver with the
voltage inputs for speed command. (And your existing drivers probably
expect an input range of +10V to -10V for full speed forward and
reverse, with any intermediate value for any other speed.
I like the apparent mechanical design -- though the ones which I
have seen in service did not have (or need) a keyboard.
The X15-250-5 looks like a better match for your needs, as it is
designed to work with analog servos.
Note that they all are based on Windows to run Mach3, and *you*
might prefer EMC2 (linux based) for various reasons. Also -- the prices
scare me. :-)
Ignoramus2215
Don, so, if I can get a NEC MultiSync monitor and that EGA to VGA
cable, I could then see the EGA image? Did I get that right?
i
Pete C.
No, nothing to do with NEC Multisync monitors, they just happen to use
that name. Pretty much all current monitors are multisync, the days of
monitors that only handled one specific scan rate are long gone.
DoN. Nichols
>> On 2010-02-24, Jon Elson <jme...@wustl.edu> wrote:
[ ... ]
>>> There are several servo interfaces available for EMC that you can choose
>>> from (I make one kind).
>>
>> Tell us about it Jon.
>>
>> i
> OK, I have two flavors. One is for use with
> velocity servo amps that take +/- 10 V analog
> velocity command signals. It is a very flexible
> board set, meaning you can mix and match boards
> for the actual number of I/Os you need. It runs
> $780 for the
> basic 4-axis set, that gives 4 encoder counters, 4
> 16-bit 10 V DACs and 16 digital inputs and 8 SSR
> output locations, plus an E-stop circuit.
>
> See
> http://pico-systems.com/oscrc4/catalog/index.php?cPath=8
> for a look at this system.
Intesting. I see that it expects to be driven by a parallel
port, and is not on cards which plug directly into the system bus, which
suggests that I could use it with on of my Sun workstations instead of
requiring an Intel based system. This I would like. I should be able
to compile EMC2 to run under Solaris 10 (which has a real-time feature).
I am curious about the power supply shown. The voltages are
specified, but I see no current capacity to suggest whether it would
serve better than the many other power supplies which I already have.
Is there anyplace where I can download the communication
protocols being used with the parallel port?
Thanks,
Pete C.
Most of these systems send step and direction signals from the parallel
port, not any sort of protocol. They rely on low level drivers to
control the parallel port and generate the pulses.
DoN. Nichols
> On 2010-02-25, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus26960 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Thank you Pete. Are there some provisions for using this mill in kind
>>> of manual mode. Let's say that I just want to drill a hole in a part
>>> and mill off a corner, something that is easy to do with a manual
>>> mill. How much harder would it be to do with CNC. Maybe with keyboard
>>> arrows or some such. The question probably shows my ignorance, but I
>>> want to know how much I am giving up by switching to CNC.
>
>> Some of the old tape-NC controls were not at all set up for manual
>> machining. Later CNC controls with CRTs were not too bad, and your
>> TNC-151 should be in that era. They have jog buttons and maybe even
>> an MPG to crank like a manual machine's handwheels.
>
> What is an MPG?
I think that it expands (in this use) to "Manual Pulse
Generator". Think of a knob or handwheel connected to a quadrature
encoder so it produces the pulses to move the table and quill. Ideally,
set up three of them on a box to represent the three axes in an
intuitive way.
>> Pretty much all PC retrofits will also allow you to do that. I used
>> the jog keys on the keyboard for a while, but put MPGs on my two
>> machines now and find them to be a great addition. But, when
>> manually facing off a surface or something, I still use the jog keys
>> to get a constant feed rate.
>
> I am cool with doing it with keys or even command line. I am a command
> line kind of person.
As am I -- but I think that a MPG is a nice extension to the
keyboard for feeding the mill's motions.
Enjoy,
sta...@prolynx.com
> "Pete C." wrote:
>
> > Ignoramus26960 wrote:
>
> > > >> >>> So, Karl, what would you (with your skills and all) do with this
> > > >> >>> bridgeport, would you just try to restore its Interact 2 controls?
>
> > You'll have to look up the signal specs for both to see.
>
>
> EGA uses TTL signals and has separate H and V sync signals as well as
> two bits each for R, G and B, hence the 64 colors it had.
>
> VGA also has separate H and V sync signals (can't find signal level
> specs), and has three analog R, G and B signals.
>
> Get out your scope and check the signal levels of the VGA output of a
> PC. You should be able to do a simple resistor ladder D/A converter type
> setup to convert the two TTL color bits into a four level analog signal
> for the VGA monitor to take. The HV sync timings will be within the
> capabilities of the VGA monitor, you may or may not need to adjust their
> levels.
>
> A key thing to keep in mind here is that this is a CNC control, not a
> gaming PC and getting those 64 EGA colors to display perfectly doesn't
> matter as long as they are readable.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Just as I remembered from waaay back, there's a 9-pin to 15 pin
adapter:
http://www.controlcable.com/custom.asp?i=65032
There are other outfits that have the same, probably not too popular
an item these days, though.
Can get one to go either way, EGA card to VGA monitor or the reverse.
Fairly cheap, too.
Back in the stone age, the VGA monitors used to come with EGA video
card plug adapters. Used to have to do this when the Navy was too
cheap to pony up for a VGA card after an EGA monitor burned out.
Basically, EGA was digital and VGA was analog, but the digital video
signals could be represented on the analog monitor. An LCD might work
with the adapter. Cheap enough to test out if you can scrounge a
spare monitor and get the adapter.
Stan
cncmillgil
wrote:
I have experience with Heide's recently & with B-Port series II's
eon's ago.
The old original seriesII NC (early 70's) had cog belt drive stepper
moters for XYZ. The Z (knee) was air assisted. Also an pneumatic quill
with a "spindle wizard" (stops for depths)
The one I used back when,had a Bridgeport control, remex tape reader
that I converted to a BTR floppy disk reader, had what they called
"tab sequential" code to run it. But no handles to run it manually. I
know some series II's did, but not the NC models.
Being that the Heide control is on yours, seems alot newer & most
likely has servo's..
Fixing the Heide control is the way to go if possible. IMO their
conversational input is only second to Hurco. But even easier on some
things Hurco can't do.
looks like a fun project.
Good luck
--
___ ___
/ /\ / /\
/ /__\ / /\/\
/__/ / ------------------------------------ /__/\/\/
\ \ / ------------------------------- \ \/\/
\__\/ \__\/
Gil©
Member of
==American Toolmakers==
using the "old world" ways
with yesterdays technology
building
Tomorrows Dreams
Wes
>> Karl, if you can give me a rundown of what I would need/how much time
>> it will take/how much it will cost, it would be greatly appreciated.
>
>The major cost here will be your time. A lot to learn. My pure guess would
>be about two man months. The more equipment you can reuse the more you save
>and the more time you'll spend. Its easier to do a simple machine first,
>this one isn't it. Look in to how you do the servo drives with the
>Heidenhein scales and what all you'll need to interface all the I/O to your
>Linux box. These will be the two largest costs.
Iggy has one huge advantage. He likely knows the *nix world and is a programmer.
I look forward to an interesting set of progress postings.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Wes
>If I can get it to work, and if I can use it for small hobby projects
>that one normally does with a manual mill (like drill three holes and
>round two corners), as well as for CNC projects, I will be very happy
>and it will be a useful upgrade over my existing Bridgeport.
I think it will beat the heck out of a Sieg X? conversion. Go for it!
Ignoramus2215
> "Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Karl, if you can give me a rundown of what I would need/how much time
>>> it will take/how much it will cost, it would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>>The major cost here will be your time. A lot to learn. My pure guess would
>>be about two man months. The more equipment you can reuse the more you save
>>and the more time you'll spend. Its easier to do a simple machine first,
>>this one isn't it. Look in to how you do the servo drives with the
>>Heidenhein scales and what all you'll need to interface all the I/O to your
>>Linux box. These will be the two largest costs.
>
>
> Iggy has one huge advantage. He likely knows the *nix world and is a programmer.
>
> I look forward to an interesting set of progress postings.
>
Unix is definitely the easiest part of this undertaking.
i
Ignoramus2215
>
>>If I can get it to work, and if I can use it for small hobby projects
>>that one normally does with a manual mill (like drill three holes and
>>round two corners), as well as for CNC projects, I will be very happy
>>and it will be a useful upgrade over my existing Bridgeport.
>
> I think it will beat the heck out of a Sieg X? conversion. Go for it!
I think that it will be a great machine if I do not screw it up.
i
Jon Elson
>
> I had a computer system (big old VAX) that was moved and stored
> unpowered for about six months. When I powered it up and got it booted
> it had all kinds of strange issues for a couple weeks. I then powered it
> down and did the plug and reseat thing on every component (took me about
> 45 min). After that it booted and didn't have a single problem for
> several years of 24x365 operation after that until it was retired.
I finally retired my cobbled-together VAX Station
II that had run for about 20 years!
The disk drive seems to have croaked, and I don't
need it anymore. It needed the
reset boards routine every 6 months or so after it
got to about 15 years old.
Jon
Jon Elson
>
> What is an MPG?
OOps, sorry, jargon. Manual Pulse Generator, ie.
a hand-cranked encoder, usually with 100 detent
positions. Many CNC controls have them. Some
people hate them, some people love them. Very
handy for use with edge finders, for instance.
Get close, turn the rate selector to .0001 then
every full crank of the dial is .01"
>
> I am cool with doing it with keys or even command line. I am a command
> line kind of person.
You will not find zig-zagging across a piece of
stock to clean up the face all that
much fun to do with MDI (uhh, there goes that
jargon again) MDI = Manual Data Input
So, you would enter :
G01 F10 X5
G01 F10 Y0.5
G01 F10 X0
and so forth. MUCH easier to do with jog buttons.
There are places where MDI is just perfect, like
keying in a fixture offset before starting a
program or something like that.
Jon
Jon Elson
> Intesting. I see that it expects to be driven by a parallel
> port, and is not on cards which plug directly into the system bus, which
> suggests that I could use it with on of my Sun workstations instead of
> requiring an Intel based system. This I would like. I should be able
> to compile EMC2 to run under Solaris 10 (which has a real-time feature).
>
Well, the other problem is it was designed for the
EPP mode (IEEE-1284)
of data transfer. Not all other parallel ports
support this natively.
On the other hand, you could probably make any
bidirectional parallel port
that even loosely follows the old PC-style ports
do it in software, either
doing a software handshake or just skipping the
handshake and assuming the
controller board is always faster than the Sun CPU.
> I am curious about the power supply shown. The voltages are
> specified, but I see no current capacity to suggest whether it would
> serve better than the many other power supplies which I already have.
>
Which power supply? For the PPMC? It is a
commodity +5, +/- 12 V supply,
not much current at all. About 300 mA on +5 and
+12, 100 mA on the -12.
> Is there anyplace where I can download the communication
> protocols being used with the parallel port?
Well, Jan Axelson's book kind of goes over it,
there are some docs on
SMSC's web site for the FDC37C665GT chip that I
worked from 9 years ago.
That was one of the popular ISA multi-IO chips
when motherboards still used
an internal ISA bus to handle serial, parallel and
floppy devices. Basically,
you have a bidirectional data bus, an address
strobe, a data strobe, a direction
signal and an acknowledge signal back from the
device. There's also a well-hidden
Intel/Microsoft document on the IEEE-1284 but that
was more aimed at a standard register-level
description of the port on the PC.
Anyway, due to the disappearing of the PC's
parallel port, and the fact that real time
performance of PCs is going down the tubes, I am
working on porting EMC to the Beagle Board, a $149
3" square board that packs pretty much everything
on a PC.
Disk is replaced by SD memory cards. We don't
have the RTAI real time system
ready yet, but a guy is working on that.
EMC2 does need "hard" real-time performance, I
don't know what level of RT support Solaris 10
offers. The software-generated step guys have the
step generator dispatched every 10 us or so, which
is really tough on the system. For the interfaces
I do, a 1 ms interrupt rate works fine, which is a
little less demanding.
Jon