[OT] PC Hardware Problem
Tim Wescott
run this by some of you, to see if it lights any bulbs.
One of my boxen runs for a while, then (in Linux at least) kernel panics
and resets (in Windows it resets, but I haven't stood over it to know if
Windows notices the problem). My kid and I were working on it today to
reinstall Ubuntu on the theory that the software was just royally
screwed, which is when I noticed the kernel panicking.
It acts like a thermal problem -- leave it off for a long time and it
takes a long time to have a problem, use it a lot and it happens much
more often. All the fans work, and at one point I was able to monitor
the various system temperatures which showed OK, so it's not something
simple like the processor overheating.
At this point I'm about ready to start swapping parts, but part-swapping
costs $$, so I thought I'd ask the group if these symptoms sound
familiar, and if you found out anything specific to go with them.
Jon Slaughter
> It's been ages since I kept current with PC technology, so I wanted to
> run this by some of you, to see if it lights any bulbs.
>
> One of my boxen runs for a while, then (in Linux at least) kernel
> panics and resets (in Windows it resets, but I haven't stood over it
> to know if Windows notices the problem). My kid and I were working
> on it today to reinstall Ubuntu on the theory that the software was
> just royally screwed, which is when I noticed the kernel panicking.
>
> It acts like a thermal problem -- leave it off for a long time and it
> takes a long time to have a problem, use it a lot and it happens much
> more often. All the fans work, and at one point I was able to monitor
> the various system temperatures which showed OK, so it's not something
> simple like the processor overheating.
I had the same problem. Starting a few weeks ago my computer started
freezing up mainly after I would leave it(say in over night). It turned out
that the heatsink compound was dried up... fixed that and it's been running
fine ever since(about 2 weeks).
Of course it could potentially have been something else but that seems to
have been the issue. What happened was the thermal compound was relatively
dry and I guess wasn't making good enough contact and would eventually cause
the thermal sensor to trip(most modern CPU's have a shutdown mode to prevent
damage).
I was monitoring the temp too but since it always happened when I was
off(except the last few times) I never knew what was going on and imagined
it couldn't be overheating when I wasn't on it(since it was basically in
idle) but after replacing the compound no issues at all.
Anyways, it's worth a look...
It could be the memory or PS... usually one of those is the issue(Which is
why I figured it was my memory since I have a monster PS).
Buerste
"Tim Wescott" <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote in message
news:UaadncSZ0dsXRB3W...@web-ster.com...
Memory SIMMS can cause that...or something else. Take all cards out, clean
contacts and reseat them and all the cables. If more than one SIMM, try to
run on one or the other and move it to different slots. Disconnect all
devices and drives to see if it will act-up with just the MB, processor and
a SIMM. Examine all the capacitors on the MB with a magnifying glass to
look for bulges and splits. Do you smell anything? Pull the cover and
clean out the power supply. I've never seen heatsink compound fail but good
idea to redo it. Sometimes if you just give it a ride in the trunk of a car
for a few days it will work fine.
kfvo...@gmail.com
Have you tried running memtest86? It's usually an option when you're
in grub. Also clean the heatsink fins if you haven't Mine were packed
but you couldn't tell till you removed the fan.
Ignoramus15530
> On Feb 20, 8:58?pm, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
>> It's been ages since I kept current with PC technology, so I wanted to
>> run this by some of you, to see if it lights any bulbs.
>>
>> One of my boxen runs for a while, then (in Linux at least) kernel panics
>> and resets (in Windows it resets, but I haven't stood over it to know if
>> reinstall Ubuntu on the theory that the software was just royally
>> screwed, which is when I noticed the kernel panicking.
>>
>> It acts like a thermal problem -- leave it off for a long time and it
>> takes a long time to have a problem, use it a lot and it happens much
>> the various system temperatures which showed OK, so it's not something
>> simple like the processor overheating.
>>
>> At this point I'm about ready to start swapping parts, but part-swapping
>> costs $$, so I thought I'd ask the group if these symptoms sound
>> familiar, and if you found out anything specific to go with them.
>>
>> --www.wescottdesign.com
>
> Have you tried running memtest86? It's usually an option when you're
> in grub. Also clean the heatsink fins if you haven't Mine were packed
> but you couldn't tell till you removed the fan.
Definitely run memtest86 for a few hours. We had a similar problem at
work, turned out to be memory. It did not show up until we ran
memtest86 for a few hours.
i
pimpom
Others have made good suggestions regarding the PSU and the
memory. Very often it's just the contacts rather than a defective
piece of hardware. I suggest you remove the RAM sticks and clean
the contacts, taking the usual precautions against ESD. Brush and
blow the slots too. You didn't say how old the computer is. If
it's using a PATA HDD, check the Molex power connector by pushing
and pulling at the wires _individually_ to see if one or more are
a bit loose. I've come across numerous cases in which symptoms
like the one you're having now are caused by either of these two
possibilities.
Jim Wilkins
15530.invalid> wrote:
> ...
> Definitely run memtest86 for a few hours. We had a similar problem at
> work, turned out to be memory. It did not show up until we ran
> memtest86 for a few hours.
Could you tell if the problem was a poor connection? I've found that
wiggling connectors solves the majority of electronic problems. When I
was testing and repairing field returns over half the boards had no
problem although they came from competent techs at major semiconductor
manufacturers. We assumed that swapping the board cleaned the
contacts, and they sent the old one back as a precaution. Those boards
almost never came back a second time.
I suspected that ammonia from floor cleaning compounds was attacking
the copper underneath the gold fingers. I couldn't convince management
to pay to have that tested, but they did confirm that silicone from
candy bar wrappers contaminated boards and caused poor solder joints.
It's applied to make them slide out of vending machines better.
jsw
Tim Wescott
My first thought on seeing the kernel panic was Memtest. Under Memtest
it quietly locks up and resets.
Michael A. Terrell
That sounds like bad electrolytics in the power supply for the CPU.
If you keep using it, it will reach a point where it won't even boot.
There are about a half dozen low ESR electrolytics in parallel. The AC
current through them causes them to heat up. As the ESR rises, the
capacitor dries up, causing more jheat until it fails. If you are good
with a soldering iron I would replace the electrolytics. Make sure to
use brand name low ESR 105� C parts.
Some motherboards have a couple extra sets of holes where they either
went with a higher capacitance, or cut corners.
--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
Have you taken a good look at the caps on the motherboard???
Mine had started misbehaving about a month back and got to the point
it sometimes would not boot. 5 33000 mfd caps had "popped".
Take a look at the top of the cans - they have 3 lines scored in them.
If they are at all convex they are shot. I replaced all 5 caps last
night and it is working fine
Tim Wescott
Thanks to all. We've been reminded of stuff we knew, used your responses
to order our attack, and had the obvious (dust in the heat sink) pointed
out.
And there _was_ enough dust in the CPU heat sink to insulate a house. I
don't know if that was the problem, but it sure could have been.
David Billington
friends daughter, 14, was complaining of her laptop BSODing regularly
and we investigated and found no problems but suspected a heat related
cause. In the end it seems she like to use the laptop on the carpet or
her lap and both situations blocked the CPU cooling causing the issue.
When used on a suitable flat surface that didn't block the cooling all
was fine.
RFI-EMI-GUY
Even a small hair between the CPU heatsink and the CPU can cause a
thermally induced system crash. It also could be a defective hard drive
or in the case of some motherboards leaking and swelling electrolytic
capacitors.
--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"�
"Use only Genuine Interocitor Parts" Tom Servo ;-P
Spehro Pefhany
Also suspect the power supply. Some PSUs are such POSs that they will
try to kill the mombo when (not if) the e-caps dry out. I won't buy a
PSU without OVP.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Tim Wescott
What did you use for heat sink compound? Just the usual white silicone
goo like I may find in my 30-year-old tube? This has the magic melting
elastomeric stuff that came with the CPU.
We've replaced the power supply, and drives, and played 'swap the memory'
games -- still does it. The caps on the mobo look good, so either it's a
bad cap that's not visibly bad, or it's a CPU fit issue.
If I have good heat sink compound I think I'll give that a go.
cavelamb
> What did you use for heat sink compound? Just the usual white silicone
> goo like I may find in my 30-year-old tube? This has the magic melting
> elastomeric stuff that came with the CPU.
>
> We've replaced the power supply, and drives, and played 'swap the memory'
> games -- still does it. The caps on the mobo look good, so either it's a
> bad cap that's not visibly bad, or it's a CPU fit issue.
>
> If I have good heat sink compound I think I'll give that a go.
>
Ok, Tim, here is how to locate the problem...
Make a cone of paper that will fit over a component to be tested.
Big end up - little end fits the device to be tested.
Printer paper and tape work fine.
You'll probably wind up with several odd shaped cones for computer parts.
Use a hair dryer to blow WARM air onto the part for a few seconds
to try to fail a part.
Use a freon can the same way to try to recover a part.
Try to control your spray area carefully so as to affect only one part
at a time.
With computers this is more difficult because once a computer goes
crazy it must usually be cooled and restarted before it will run right.
So you probably want to plan an attack that keeps parts cool to prevent
the crazies rather than cause them.
Old light aircraft autopilots and other avionics are about the only thing
expensive enough these days to warrant fixing rather than just replacing.
That's where I learned this trick.
--
Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/
Winston
(...)
> Use a hair dryer to blow WARM air onto the part for a few seconds
> to try to fail a part.
>
> Use a freon can the same way to try to recover a part.
(...)
Yup. We used to call Freon 11 "Tech-in-a-can".
--Winston
Jon Elson
motherboards made about 2001. Dell had a $100 million charge against
earnings for the warranty work on this mess. There are guys on eBay who
sell kits of replacement caps for about $20, but you have to ID the
right cap values for your specific mobo, and it takes some serious
soldering know-how to replace them without frying the board. Look at
the mobo, near the CPU, for bulging, burst, discolored caps or those
with a yellow crusty mess oozing from them.
I repaired a machine at work this way, I'm pretty sure it exhibited your
exact symptoms before going completely dead.
Jon
jk
>On 2/21/2010 1:58 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
>> It's been ages since I kept current with PC technology, so I wanted to
>> run this by some of you, to see if it lights any bulbs.
>>
.....
>
>Even a small hair between the CPU heatsink and the CPU can cause a
>thermally induced system crash. It also could be a defective hard drive
>or in the case of some motherboards leaking and swelling electrolytic
>capacitors.
I will second this, and also note that just too much goop will do it.
I had a problem almost exactly like yours, got worse when it was
warmer, almost no existent when it was cold in the room.
Could not find the culprit, until I took the heat sink off and scraped
the interface almost dry and refit it. Tried this based on something I
read online . The goop wasn't that thick, but removing most of it
fixed the problem.
jk
RFI-EMI-GUY
Only problem with freeze spray is that if there is high humidity, you
end up frosting good circuitry that upon melting starts flaking out and
maybe even developing corrosion and conductive tracks then you waste
time figuring out what just happened. I am not big on that method here
in humid Florida.
Winston
> On 2/22/2010 10:43 AM, Winston wrote:
>> On 2/21/2010 11:19 PM, cavelamb wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>> Use a hair dryer to blow WARM air onto the part for a few seconds
>>> to try to fail a part.
>>>
>>> Use a freon can the same way to try to recover a part.
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> Yup. We used to call Freon 11 "Tech-in-a-can".
>>
>> --Winston
>
> Only problem with freeze spray is that if there is high humidity, you
> end up frosting good circuitry that upon melting starts flaking out and
> maybe even developing corrosion and conductive tracks then you waste
> time figuring out what just happened. I am not big on that method here
> in humid Florida.
We always kept the lab comfortable WRT both
temperature and humidity. Never saw an issue caused
by condensation, probably because it dried quickly and
there wasn't anything it could pick up that would've
made it conductive.
I feel lucky that I was out of that business by the
time that lead-free solder became prevalent.
I don't like that stuff. :)
--Winston
Gerald Miller
When Junior lived here he insisted on a NEW single edge razor blade
every time he spread the top of the line compound, after he dressed
the heat sink surface with extra fine emery cloth on plate glass.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
cavelamb
completely concur!
Fortunately I still have several pounds of 70/30.
Winston
> Winston wrote:
(...)
>> I feel lucky that I was out of that business by the
>> time that lead-free solder became prevalent.
>> I don't like that stuff. :)
>>
>> --Winston
>
> completely concur!
>
> Fortunately I still have several pounds of 70/30.
Just checked the price of my fav 63/37 at ~25.00 for a
1 lb roll. Wow! Should have bought 'solder futures'.
--Winston
Jim Wilkins
> ....
>
> Just checked the price of my fav 63/37 at ~25.00 for a
> 1 lb roll. Wow! Should have bought 'solder futures'.
>
> --Winston
Who knew that the valuable heavy metals would be lead, tin and copper?
jsw
Winston
The stuff is inflation proof, apparently. Huh.
--Winston
Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
In US dollars/metric ton
Lead is $2,290/ton
Tin is $16,975.00/ton
Assuming the 63/37 is by weight, the weighted average is 11,500 per
tonne, or $5.23/pound. So the metal is only 20% of what you are
buying.
Winston
(...)
> In US dollars/metric ton
>
> Lead is $2,290/ton
> Tin is $16,975.00/ton
>
> Assuming the 63/37 is by weight, the weighted average is 11,500 per
> tonne, or $5.23/pound. So the metal is only 20% of what you are
> buying.
Logically then, the solder I've been storing for years cost
only 1.60/pound in raw metal. Of course, 1980 dollars are
not the same as 2009 dollars.
I guess there's value added in the alloying, extrusion,
drawing processes, then profit down the retail chain.
The machine that makes the stuff must be interesting.
I've never seen one but I envision a couple coaxial
stainless funnels that continuously extrude the solder
(with its flux core). Perhaps rows of rollers follow
to draw it to final size. I imagine much of the operation
would be conducted under a inert gas blanket to exclude
oxygen.
--Winston
DoN. Nichols
> On 2/24/2010 12:57 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>> In US dollars/metric ton
>>
>> Lead is $2,290/ton
>> Tin is $16,975.00/ton
>>
>> Assuming the 63/37 is by weight, the weighted average is 11,500 per
>> tonne, or $5.23/pound. So the metal is only 20% of what you are
>> buying.
Perhaps part of the cost is some kind of ROHS penalty fee.
[ ... ]
> The machine that makes the stuff must be interesting.
> I've never seen one but I envision a couple coaxial
> stainless funnels that continuously extrude the solder
> (with its flux core). Perhaps rows of rollers follow
> to draw it to final size. I imagine much of the operation
> would be conducted under a inert gas blanket to exclude
> oxygen.
I would find the machine which makes the Ersin Multicore solder
even more intersting. IIRC, it is five rosin cores whose centers form a
circle about half the diameter of the whole solder.
At a guess -- slitting from the sides, squeezing the rosin into
the slits, then swaging the slits closed again over the solder.
Is Ersin Multicore still made?
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Winston
(...)
> I would find the machine which makes the Ersin Multicore solder
> even more intersting. IIRC, it is five rosin cores whose centers form a
> circle about half the diameter of the whole solder.
>
> At a guess -- slitting from the sides, squeezing the rosin into
> the slits, then swaging the slits closed again over the solder.
I guess the wire *could* be extruded 'open' and then swaged over
the flux, too. Envision a gear with 5 teeth.
I guess that means single-core solder *could* start out as an
extruded flat ribbon and the first die actually wraps it around
the flux core sort of like a hot dog bun.
> Is Ersin Multicore still made?
Yup. Though I think they dropped the 'Ersin' name.
<http://www.newark.com/multicore-solder/mm00975/502-cored-wire-solder/dp/32M7025>
I bet flux smells exactly the same though. :)
--Winston
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
I don't know if it's still made but I have a lifetime supply. I picked
up 12 500 G (1 lb) rolls (SN63) when NCR in Waterloo Ont was clearing
out surplus before shutting down several years back - I think I paid
$10 for the whole box. Gave a few rolls to friends.Got about 8 1/2
rolls left.
I also got almost a full 5 lb roll of Kester 44 MultiCore and 4 rolls
of alusol (MultiCor Aluminum solder) in a $2 box at an auction about 6
years ago.
mike
Caps don't have to be visibly bad. I had a bad cap on the supply to the
video card that caused random system crashes. Stick a scope on the cap
and see if the volts sits still. If it doesn't, the cap is suspect.
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> I would find the machine which makes the Ersin Multicore solder
> even more intersting. IIRC, it is five rosin cores whose centers form a
> circle about half the diameter of the whole solder.
> DoN.
My guess is they extrude it large over flux nozzles and then draw it
thin, like thermometer tubes ot millefiore glass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_millifiori.jpg
jsw
sta...@prolynx.com
done back then would be to cast a billet with the requisite number of
holes, fill them up with flux and then extrude and draw down to the
required size. I've got a couple of rolls of Ersin with a little
silver added, made the cordless iron bits I used to use last longer.
The flux was great stuff. I've no idea if it's still made, probably
not with ROHS the order of the day. Repair of surface-mount boards
takes a little more these days than the roll of solder, an iron and a
schematic that repairing stuff used to. Some of that lead-free solder
turns into a nasty pasty mess if reheated.
Stan
DoN. Nichols
> On 2/24/2010 7:56 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>> I would find the machine which makes the Ersin Multicore solder
>> even more intersting. IIRC, it is five rosin cores whose centers form a
>> circle about half the diameter of the whole solder.
>>
>> At a guess -- slitting from the sides, squeezing the rosin into
>> the slits, then swaging the slits closed again over the solder.
>
> I guess the wire *could* be extruded 'open' and then swaged over
> the flux, too. Envision a gear with 5 teeth.
Yes. That would make sense.
> I guess that means single-core solder *could* start out as an
> extruded flat ribbon and the first die actually wraps it around
> the flux core sort of like a hot dog bun.
:-)
Which hot-dog bun? The New England style, which is slit down
the top (and baked joined with several others on the sides), or the more
widespread US one which is baked as individuals, and slit on the side?
What do you use for mustard on the solder? :-)
>> Is Ersin Multicore still made?
>
> Yup. Though I think they dropped the 'Ersin' name.
><http://www.newark.com/multicore-solder/mm00975/502-cored-wire-solder/dp/32M7025>
O.K. The Multicore logo looks the same as it used to at least.
> I bet flux smells exactly the same though. :)
That brings back memories. :-)
Winston
(...)
> I've got a '40s book on metal extrusion, the way it would have been
> done back then would be to cast a billet with the requisite number of
> holes, fill them up with flux and then extrude and draw down to the
> required size.
I can't shake the picture of a solder extrusion that has the shape of
an asterisk in cross section. * Gets drawn through a pressurized
funnel of flux and then swaged shut and drawn to size.
I've got a couple of rolls of Ersin with a little
> silver added, made the cordless iron bits I used to use last longer.
> The flux was great stuff. I've no idea if it's still made, probably
> not with ROHS the order of the day. Repair of surface-mount boards
> takes a little more these days than the roll of solder, an iron and a
> schematic that repairing stuff used to. Some of that lead-free solder
> turns into a nasty pasty mess if reheated.
Yup. But you have a misspelling in your phrase "All of that lead-free..."
--Winston
Martin H. Eastburn
Likely bought out or patent ran out. Maybe the get the lead out did
it.
IIRC, I have some with copper in the alloy. It is tougher.
Martin
cl...@snyder.on.ca
<lion...@consolidated.net> wrote:
>I have some - I want to say it was British / English made.
>Likely bought out or patent ran out. Maybe the get the lead out did
>it.
>
From the website of the manufacturer of Ersin solders, Multicore
Solders Ltd
Multicore Solders Ltd
Kelsey Hse, Wood Lane
Hemel, Hempstead
U.K.
HP2 4RQ
Flux-cored wire is universally made by an extrusion process followed
by drawing through dies progressively reducing the wire diameter from
say 16mm to the required diameter which is normally in the range 3mm
to 0.2mm. As solder is opaque and usually contains lead it is not
possible to see and test inside the wire to check for flux presence.
The extrusion process is subject to variations of pressure and
temperature which can lead to occasional blockages or contractions of
the flux core. The shortage of such a flux void at the extrusion stage
results in a much longer length without flux in the drawn down wire.
Any gap in the flux continuity will result in a 'dry' faulty joint.
Solder cannot join metals without flux.
Multicore Solders Ltd. has employed its own unique extrusion process
for over 40 years to guarantee flux continuity. It has earned an
enviable reputation for this reliability that has never been
challenged.
Firstly we use machines of our own design to minimise variations of
temperature variations etc. during extrusion.
Secondly we are the only company in the world, to the best of our
knowledge, that extrudes 5 truly separate cores of flux inside the
solder wire.
Until 1967 we had patents covering our principle of extruding more
than one core of flux. Most competitors still make single core. Some
have tried to imitate our technology but we have proved that the shape
of their flux cores (which sometimes collapse together at the centre
as in the photo above) is due to flux being injected through a single
nozzle having 5 holes in it. Such a crude imitation is no more
technically reliable than a single cored solder.
The probability of all 5 cores being absent from Ersin Multicore
5-Core Solder is 5x4x3x2x1 = 120 times less than competitors' cored
solder, even if the single core solder process was as closely
controlled as Multicore's.
Winston
(...)
> Which hot-dog bun? The New England style, which is slit down
> the top (and baked joined with several others on the sides), or the more
> widespread US one which is baked as individuals, and slit on the side?
Either will do for the purposes of this laboratory.
For extra credit use a 'hamburger' metaphor to explain capacitance. :)
> What do you use for mustard on the solder? :-)
French's errr.. Victory Flux!
(...)
> O.K. The Multicore logo looks the same as it used to at least.
>
>> I bet flux smells exactly the same though. :)
>
> That brings back memories. :-)
Heh! That will melt a few decades away, Right Now. :)
--Winston
Winston
> I have some - I want to say it was British / English made.
Kelsey House
Wood Lane End
Hemel Hempstead
Hertfordshire
HP2 4RQ
*Nobody* can slap a label on a place as our friends,
the Brits can.
--Winston
Winston
(...)
> Multicore Solders Ltd. has employed its own unique extrusion process
> for over 40 years to guarantee flux continuity.
Ah! Reading between the lines, they squirt a 16mm diameter
solder slug out of the extruder (with flux holes in place) then
pressurize the flux at one end of the slug whilst (g) drawing the
other end through a series of reducing rollers.
Pretty darned clever.
--Winston
Winston
(...)
> I've got a '40s book on metal extrusion, the way it would have been
> done back then would be to cast a billet with the requisite number of
> holes, fill them up with flux and then extrude and draw down to the
> required size.
Oops! I should have read your reply first.
--Winston