Spontaneous oily rag combustion, hood grease fires
Existential Angst
Awl --
Any thoughts on this, esp. on how likely this all is? Anyone with personal
experience?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_combustion says Yea on the
possibility, for *uncovered* Linseed oil soaked rags. Also large Q's of
pistachio nuts -- no foolin....
But what are the likelihoods? wrt to various oils, grease? Motor oils?
A very cautious shop-type friend says this happened to him, burned down part
of his house.
Grease fires in vents are a little more understandable, given their
proximity to exhaust heat and poss. sparks, but still seems like a long
shot. But something to consider, esp. in an old house. I wonder what the
buildup is like, with good modern filters.
With old mesh washable filters, I saw no buildup in vents that had to be
over 30 years old, altho not sure of the cooking hours on these vents.
But I do know that if I were freezing in the wilds with my oily rags and
kitchen grease, hell would freeze over before I would be able to ignite this
stuff. heh....
--
EA, not yet PV'd in this regard.
Ed Huntress
"Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b207406$0$31276$607e...@cv.net...
A problem generally with "drying" oils -- oils that oxidize and generate
heat. Especially the nut- and seed oils used for finishing wood; most
vegetable oils, fats, and some others. The recommended storage for
linseed-soaked rags used to be to keep them in a covered metal can.
--
Ed Huntress
JR North
definitely possible.
JR
Dweller in the cellar
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aemeijers
mound of bagged grass clippings, that were cut a hair on the damp side.
A day of Indiana sun cooking them, then around 10 pm that night, a
neighbor pounding on the door....
I'm sure it occurs elsewhere, otherwise they wouldn't sell all those red
safety cans with the spring lids.
--
aem sends...
Stormin Mormon
hung over a clothes line, with plenty of exposed surface.
The metal can sounds like it would keep the heat in. Being
actually more likely to combust.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b20779f$0$31275$607e...@cv.net...
Stormin Mormon
exempt from this. It's only natural oils like linseed which
are a problem. Cooking grease is a maybe. Motor oil and
wheel berring grease, not an issue.
David Nebenzahl
> I've heard that spread out flat is acceptable also. Such as
> hung over a clothes line, with plenty of exposed surface.
>
> The metal can sounds like it would keep the heat in. Being
> actually more likely to combust.
No. The reason one puts oily/solvent-soaked rags in a covered can is so
there's not enough air to cause outright combustion, even if they do get
hot enough to spontaneously do so.
The only time I witnessed spontaneous combustion was waaaay back when I
was a temp worker at Standard Brands (anyone remember that chain?) in
Tucson, when someone had thrown something oily or, more likely, soaked
in paint thinner, into a dumpster, and it started smoldering. Of course,
it gets pretty hot there. As someone else noted in this thread, not
likely to happen in cold weather (but maybe it can happen even then?).
--
I am a Canadian who was born and raised in The Netherlands. I live on
Planet Earth on a spot of land called Canada. We have noisy neighbours.
- harvested from Usenet
Hustlin' Hank
wrote:
Decomposition builds heat. Just about anything can burn. Leaves, wood
chips, oily rags and etc. It mostly depends on the quanity and how
they are stored. Most people don't have the large quanities stored
that is required to produce enough heat to actually catch fire. But,
keep in mind that it DOES happen.
Also, glass bottles that are laying aside a road on a sunny day can
start a fire too. Ever fry and ant with a magnifing glass? It is rare,
but it does happen.
Hank <~~~~fire safety concious
Steve
"Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b207406$0$31276$607e...@cv.net...
>
vent, after the wine arrived but before the food, so that was ok...
Never seen LInseed oil soaked rags SC, but the containers always bear the
warning. I tend to burn any rags soaked in the oil after once off jobs to
prevent surprises, and they do burn rather well.
Ed Huntress
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hfpvpg$pb0$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
> I've heard that spread out flat is acceptable also. Such as
> hung over a clothes line, with plenty of exposed surface.
>
> The metal can sounds like it would keep the heat in. Being
> actually more likely to combust.
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
The idea of the can is to keep oxygen out, which prevents the generation of
heat in the first place. Just slowing it down is enough. Spreading the rags
out to dry is OK, too.
The only places I've run into this were the annual re-oiling of the deck on
my uncle's 42-foot fishing boat, and varnishing a classic small yacht that
was moored in the same place, which I used to help with every spring. It was
100% varnished brightwork above the gunwale. Traditional varnish is full of
drying oil, too, and it's a bigger danger than linseed, because it usually
contains drying enhancers that generate more heat. In both cases we had a
couple of big instituional-sized potato chip cans that we used to hold the
clean-up rags.
sa...@dog.com
wrote:
Hay Barns are famous for burning down shortly after a load of slightly
damp hay is loaded in.
When I was young, we had a house fire that started via spontaneous
combustion of damp clothing in a metal clothes hamper that was
installed flush in a wall. That was when I heard the term for the
first time as my father was informed by the fire department as to the
cause.
sa...@dog.com
<cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I've heard that spread out flat is acceptable also. Such as
>hung over a clothes line, with plenty of exposed surface.
>
>The metal can sounds like it would keep the heat in. Being
>actually more likely to combust.
>
The metal container has to be one that shuts tightly to also deprive
it of oxygen. Being metal, it would also contain any fire that
started.
sa...@dog.com
<nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
>On 12/9/2009 9:08 PM Stormin Mormon spake thus:
>
>> I've heard that spread out flat is acceptable also. Such as
>> hung over a clothes line, with plenty of exposed surface.
>>
>> The metal can sounds like it would keep the heat in. Being
>> actually more likely to combust.
>
>No. The reason one puts oily/solvent-soaked rags in a covered can is so
>there's not enough air to cause outright combustion, even if they do get
>hot enough to spontaneously do so.
>
>The only time I witnessed spontaneous combustion was waaaay back when I
>was a temp worker at Standard Brands (anyone remember that chain?) in
>Tucson, when someone had thrown something oily or, more likely, soaked
>in paint thinner, into a dumpster, and it started smoldering. Of course,
>it gets pretty hot there. As someone else noted in this thread, not
>likely to happen in cold weather (but maybe it can happen even then?).
I have read of damp charcoal briquets stored in a locker on a boat
spontaneously combusting.
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b20cf5c$0$4978$607e...@cv.net...
Frank
Fires all the time in composting operation north of here for mushroom
farmers.
HeyBub
>
> Grease fires in vents are a little more understandable, given their
> proximity to exhaust heat and poss. sparks, but still seems like a
> long shot. But something to consider, esp. in an old house. I
> wonder what the buildup is like, with good modern filters.
> With old mesh washable filters, I saw no buildup in vents that had to
> be over 30 years old, altho not sure of the cooking hours on these
> vents.
Well, it happened to me. I wasn't THERE but I had to deal with the results.
I had rented a house to the Consul General of the Domincan Republic. His
wife evidently kept a vat of boiling oil on the stove just in case anyone
wanted a quick snack (like a banana). Anyway, the vat of oil caught fire
and, with the exhaust fan going lickety-split turned the whole exhause shaft
into a flame-thrower. The inferno reached the cap on the roof which acted to
redirect the flames into a perfect three-foot diameter circle and burnt a
hole in the roof.
Eventually these fools moved away, leaving several curious artifacts behind.
For example, each of the four bedrooms had a simple hook-latch installed on
the doors. From the hallway! The result was that anybody locked in the
bedroom couldn't get out!
Aside: I eventually sold that bad-luck house. About a year after I sold it,
the new owner, despairing of his condition, what with his wife leaving him
and all, connected a garden hose to the log-lighter, snaked it down the
hall, to the bedroom where he lay down and went to sleep. Some time later he
awoke from, no doubt, fitfull dreams and attempted to light up a toke.
Blew the fuckin' house to smithereens. No joke. This was a four-bedroom,
brick veneer house of 1800 sq ft and it was reduced to a pile of junk. Four
other houses caught fire from the burning debris raining down from the sky.
The volunteer fire department arrived on the scene, I'm told, and pulled an
"Aw shit!" alarm. Presently about a dozen pieces of equipment from Houston
arrived and poured so much water on the mess that a lake was formed. The
owner was taken to the hospital with moderate burns.
Jim Wilkins
>
> "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> The idea of the can is to keep oxygen out, which prevents
> the generation of
> heat in the first place. Just slowing it down is enough.
> Spreading the rags
> out to dry is OK, too.
The culprit is oxidation of unsaturated fats:
http://shippai.jst.go.jp/en/Detail?fn=0&id=CC1000070&
Unsaturated means a pair of carbon atoms double-bonded to each other
rather than being connected by a single bond and having hydrogen
attached to the other bonds. The double bond is less stable and oxygen
can attack it, slowly at room temperature and faster as it heats up.
If enough oxygen gets in but the heat doesn't dissipate the reaction
can run away.
This dismisses cholesterol concerns and I don't believe all of it, but
it does describe unsaturated fats in simple terms.
http://www.coconutoil.com/ray_peat_unsaturated_oils.htm
Natural products are exempt from strict regulations on unproven
advertising claims.
jsw
jsw
Ed Huntress
> Oxygen deprived -- that does make sense. Thanks.
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
Right. That's the story for oils that will oxidize. You'll notice that
several other posters have mentioned other things -- damp laundry, compost,
etc. That's something else. That's biological decomposition, usually from
bacteria. That generates plenty of heat, too.
Speaking of which, I put some high-nitrogen fertilizer in my compost pile on
Sunday, because it's almost all leaves and it wasn't getting warm enough to
suit me, and this morning it's sending up a plume of steam. I haven't stuck
the rod into it yet to see how hot it is inside, but the steam usually means
that the rod will be too hot to touch.
That can start a fire, and that's considered to be "spontaneous combustion,"
too. If it's really hot I'll mix it up and spray some more water on it to
cool it down. But I'll have to check it closely for a few days now.
Then there's certain weirdos we see on the poltical shows on TV. I expect to
see some of them burst into flame at any moment. That's another spontaneous
combustion mechanism altogether -- more like being struck by lightning.
Kurt Ullman
"Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hfqtle$bbf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> > Oxygen deprived -- that does make sense. Thanks.
> >
> > --
> > Christopher A. Young
> > Learn more about Jesus
> > www.lds.org
>
> Right. That's the story for oils that will oxidize. You'll notice that
> several other posters have mentioned other things -- damp laundry, compost,
> etc. That's something else. That's biological decomposition, usually from
> bacteria. That generates plenty of heat, too.
>
> Speaking of which, I put some high-nitrogen fertilizer in my compost pile on
> Sunday, because it's almost all leaves and it wasn't getting warm enough to
> suit me, and this morning it's sending up a plume of steam. I haven't stuck
> the rod into it yet to see how hot it is inside, but the steam usually means
> that the rod will be too hot to touch.
>
> That can start a fire, and that's considered to be "spontaneous combustion,"
> too. If it's really hot I'll mix it up and spray some more water on it to
> cool it down. But I'll have to check it closely for a few days now.
>
> Then there's certain weirdos we see on the poltical shows on TV. I expect to
> see some of them burst into flame at any moment. That's another spontaneous
> combustion mechanism altogether -- more like being struck by lightning.
>
One of these days I'll have to regale all with stories from my days
as a fire investigator. The serial kitty litter arsonist that wasn't or
the working fire IN the swimming pool.
--
To find that place where the rats don't race
and the phones don't ring at all.
If once, you've slept on an island.
Scott Kirby "If once you've slept on an island"
Ed Huntress
"Kurt Ullman" <kurtu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kurtullman-921BE...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...
Sure, work them in here. They sound like good ones.
Also, I'd like to hear someday from one of the firefighters who helped
extinguish the Cuyahoga River fire in 1969. Putting out a burning river must
stick in one's memory. <g>
--
Ed Huntress
Stormin Mormon
known of people to lock bedroom doors like that. One was the
family of a volunteer fireman I used to know. The missus got
tired of the 7 or 8 year old boy on the computer at night,
and resolved to lock him in his room at night. She already
had a hook and loop. But, he'd learned to shake the door
and eventually it would pop open. So, she'd been taping the
hook shut at night. She wanted me to put a lock on the door
facing in. I declined.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:YOidnYYa7Zc5Yr3W...@earthlink.com...
sta...@prolynx.com
wrote:
Unsaturated vegatable oils will oxidize and if soaked into flammable
materials and bulked up, can raise temperatures enough to ignite.
Avoidance is to put oil-finish soaked rags in water, put them in an
airtight container or spread them out so they aren't bulked up and let
the material dry out. Petroleum oils don't have the same chemical
structure.
I've not seen anything about grease fires in home cooking vent hoods,
although some numb-nut left a fryer on the stove one night and caused
a mass-evacuation of the apartment building when it caught fire. I
have seen the aftermath of a hood fire in a restaurant, a BK about a
mile up the road went up in flames when the fryer hood caught fire,
burned the roof off. Took about a year to rebuild, too. Modern
restaurant hoods are supposed to have wash-down features and
extinguishers, not sure what happened at that place.
Stan
jim
>
> Right. That's the story for oils that will oxidize. You'll notice that
> several other posters have mentioned other things -- damp laundry, compost,
> etc. That's something else. That's biological decomposition, usually from
> bacteria. That generates plenty of heat, too.
Yes There are two different processes being discussed. When the hay in a
barn or compost heats up it is due to thermophyllic bacteria or fungi.
Without those critters it wouldn't happen. And the process in order to
work needs a certain balance of nitrogen and carbon containing material.
So piss on some rags and put them in a pile and you might get some heat
but just wet rags won't work. Once the temperature and and volume reach
a critical mass the oxidation of simple hydro carbons (like methane)
take over and the living critters that started the process get fried.
Eventually (as in a barn fire) the heat gets to the point all the
hydrocarbons start to burn.
Varnish soaked rags are strictly chemical reactions (no living critters
involved).
>
> Speaking of which, I put some high-nitrogen fertilizer in my compost pile on
> Sunday, because it's almost all leaves and it wasn't getting warm enough to
> suit me, and this morning it's sending up a plume of steam. I haven't stuck
> the rod into it yet to see how hot it is inside, but the steam usually means
> that the rod will be too hot to touch.
Yeah I have tried high nitrogen fertilizer (30-10-10). I found it
doesn't produce as good results as 10-10-10. No real proof of that other
than how it seems to work better in the garden. Typically in the spring
I can take a half a dozen bales of hay and a half pickup load of wood
chips/bark/sawdust and if I get the mix just right I can turn it into
nice black compost in about 10-14 days (turning it over every 3-4 days).
-jim
Jim Wilkins
> ...
>
> I've not seen anything about grease fires in home cooking vent hoods,
> Stan-
The unsaturated linkages are probably oxidized while the oil is a hot
vapor or aerosol.
This is the only byproduct whose I can remember, to search for:
http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/airquality/publications/sok/acrolein.html
jsw
Ed Huntress
"jim" <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote in message
news:NKmdnYck0ZSqzbzW...@bright.net...
I'll keep that in mind. Frankly, the fertilizer that goes into the compost
pile is whatever was left over from other things. My friends at the Rutgers
Master Gardener program disapprove of my use of chemical fertilizer in
compost. <g>
I don't use much -- just enough to get the pile going on its own. We have a
very small yard but a lot of old maples and oaks around, so I get more
leaves than I need for compost. And the grass clippings usually are enough
to warm up the pile.
But not this year. Too many leaves, too little grass.
--
Ed Huntress
HeyBub
> That could make for a heck of a movie for Hollywood. I've
> known of people to lock bedroom doors like that. One was the
> family of a volunteer fireman I used to know. The missus got
> tired of the 7 or 8 year old boy on the computer at night,
> and resolved to lock him in his room at night. She already
> had a hook and loop. But, he'd learned to shake the door
> and eventually it would pop open. So, she'd been taping the
> hook shut at night. She wanted me to put a lock on the door
> facing in. I declined.
They make commercial products for just such occasions; they're called
handcuffs. I saw some at my local HF store - I think they were $7.95 (I
didn't buy them because I already have an ample supply)*.
When the family moved out, my son made over $38 taking soda bottles back to
the store for deposit refunds. But here's the one that'll cause you to drop
your donuts: I discarded 98 empty, giant-sized Cheer laundry detergent
boxes. They were using TWO giant boxes of soap per week!
-------
* At a crowded gun show some years back, I picked up a pair, held them
aloft, and called to my then-current squeeze some distance down the aisle:
"Hey, Rose! Wanna have some fun?"
Several people turned.
She called back: "Don't be silly. We already HAVE handcuffs!"
Many people grinned.
I got a look of "Oh, yeah. Right!" and put them back.
I was so proud.
Jim Wilkins
>
> ...But here's the one that'll cause you to drop
> your donuts: I discarded 98 empty, giant-sized Cheer laundry detergent
> boxes. They were using TWO giant boxes of soap per week!
Did you check the white powdery residue inside?
Tom Horne
One of the things that happened at several fast food restaurants was
that a deep fryer would ignite and before the hood system protection
could trip someone would apply an ABC Ammonium Phosphate dry chemical
extinguisher to the fire. The ammonium phosphate would react with the
deep fat and cause a boil over that would spread the fire beyond the
area protected by the hood system. Unless the restaurant was
sprinklered it would burn to the ground. That is how we came to have
class k fire extinguishers. They contain a wet chemical foam that
smothers the fire and cools the adjacent heated metal thus preventing
a re-flash.
--
Tom Horne
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b212451$0$31272$607e...@cv.net...
Stormin Mormon
experience. Mine were rather boring. Most of my FF
experience was pumping cellars after rain storms, and things
like that. Not being a 150 year old exempt, and not being in
the department 20 years, they didn't issue me a belt pager.
I found about the fire calls by reading the small town news
paper.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Kurt Ullman" <kurtu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kurtullman-921BE...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
<sta...@prolynx.com> wrote in message
news:77e70b29-54d3-4c40...@g12g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Stormin Mormon
did all the kids mess the bed every night? Or did the use
the Bobby Brady formula for using the soap?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:KrGdnWA0nqAzw7zW...@earthlink.com...
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:KrGdnWA0nqAzw7zW...@earthlink.com...
Stormin Mormon
extinguisher? I've not researched those. Are they the 2 1/2
gal water units with the funky aerator nozzle?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Tom Horne" <hor...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:015d74b2-bad5-4da5...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
aemeijers
(snip)
> -------
> * At a crowded gun show some years back, I picked up a pair, held them
> aloft, and called to my then-current squeeze some distance down the aisle:
> "Hey, Rose! Wanna have some fun?"
>
> Several people turned.
>
> She called back: "Don't be silly. We already HAVE handcuffs!"
>
> Many people grinned.
>
> I got a look of "Oh, yeah. Right!" and put them back.
>
> I was so proud.
>
>
One with a sense of humor like that, and you let her get away?
--
aem sends...
jim
I don't use any chemical fertilizer for "other things". After its
composted there is not much difference (if any) nutrients from natural
sources. The fertilizer is far more effective in that form than in its
original form.
>
> I don't use much -- just enough to get the pile going on its own. We have a
> very small yard but a lot of old maples and oaks around, so I get more
> leaves than I need for compost. And the grass clippings usually are enough
> to warm up the pile.
>
> But not this year. Too many leaves, too little grass.
The compost needs to get nitrogen from somewhere. Wood and straw have
very little on there own.
-jim
Joe
"aemeijers" <aeme...@att.net> wrote in message
news:opOdnameaOkm5r3W...@giganews.com...
: Only spontaneous combustion I ever saw with my own eyeballs was a big
: mound of bagged grass clippings, that were cut a hair on the damp side.
: A day of Indiana sun cooking them, then around 10 pm that night, a
: neighbor pounding on the door....
Sure it was 10 pm at NIGHT? :-)
aemeijers
eastern time zone. late June, early July, the western sky still has a
visible glow at 10 pm. I was out there for an hour busting up the bags
with a rake, soaking it with a garden hose. Stunk pretty bad.
--
aem sends...
Joe
wrote:
>snip<
> Any thoughts on this, esp. on how likely this all is? Anyone with personal
> experience?
True story.
My first year at college I was lucky to find a place on the student
support program, i.e., 3 hours a day and more on weekends doing
janitorial chores on campus. My regular assignment was the top two
floors of Old Main, a venerable limestone fortress (still standing and
in use) with oak plank subfloors covered with heavy industrial brown
linoleum. I usually finished around 8 PM and the last chore was to put
away the cleaning tools in a special basement area. The downstairs
crew had finished early, leaving a big wide cloth pushbroom and
related oily rags stacked against the wall instead of in their metal
storage closet. There was a lot of smoke in the area and a small fire
had started in the pushbroom. Luckily, in this janitorial area there
were mop buckets, so I had the fire out in a few minutes, and carried
the sopping residue outside in an open area. After cleaning up the
mess, there was still a nasty burnt area in the linoleum so I
contacted the superintendent and told him what had transpired. Next
day he had a crew replace the burnt spot, but the new linoleum never
did quite match even years later. It was explained to me that they had
always used some oily sweeping compound on the floors for dust
control and that was what had triggered the fire.
It may have been just a coincidence, but a while later I was handed a
much better $$ student assistantship to the drama department where the
main work was resurrecting some really decrepit stage lighting gear
and operating the lighting panel during plays. And building sets. And
subbing for missing performers. Neat
Sometimes you're in the right place at the right time, I guess.
Joe
Joe
: Joe wrote:
: > "aemeijers" <aeme...@att.net> wrote in message
: > news:opOdnameaOkm5r3W...@giganews.com...
: >
: > : Only spontaneous combustion I ever saw with my own eyeballs was a big
: > : mound of bagged grass clippings, that were cut a hair on the damp
side.
: > : A day of Indiana sun cooking them, then around 10 pm that night, a
: > : neighbor pounding on the door....
: >
: > Sure it was 10 pm at NIGHT? :-)
: >
: >
: Yeppur.
I was pulling your leg. There's only one 10 pm, and it's not in the morning.
aemeijers
> "aemeijers" <aeme...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:qc2dnWvessiPMLzW...@giganews.com...
> : Joe wrote:
> : > "aemeijers" <aeme...@att.net> wrote in message
> : > news:opOdnameaOkm5r3W...@giganews.com...
> : >
> : > : Only spontaneous combustion I ever saw with my own eyeballs was a big
> : > : mound of bagged grass clippings, that were cut a hair on the damp
> side.
> : > : A day of Indiana sun cooking them, then around 10 pm that night, a
> : > : neighbor pounding on the door....
> : >
> : > Sure it was 10 pm at NIGHT? :-)
> : >
> : >
> : Yeppur.
>
> I was pulling your leg. There's only one 10 pm, and it's not in the morning.
>
>
night.....
--
aem sends...
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Joe" <hot...@themarket.net> wrote in message
news:It-dnSI-zeAAIbzW...@giganews.com...
HeyBub
Yeah...
She joined an "awareness group" and I was undone.
In my view, there should be a law prohibiting two or more women meeting
without a chaperone.
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
She probably got hold of the keys to the 'cuffs. ;-)
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
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Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of.