Wobble in Clausing variable speed drive
Ignoramus20464
My variable speed drive, both pullies actually, wobble when they
operate. I shot a video of it at 5 Hz. It appears to be crooked or off
center. Might be some bushing missing or something. It could be that
the wobble in the primary pulley causes wobble in the driven pulley.
Anyone would have any idea?
i
Grumpy
"Ignoramus20464" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.20464.invalid> wrote in message
news:3qidneRPar_r2_PW...@giganews.com...
Not sure, but I'd pull the belt off and see if the bearing/bushing inside
the pulley has a lot of play due to wear.
Steve Lusardi
You can be certain that this wobble is an effect of wear. Only disassembly will reveal the cause. Everything else is speculation.
Steve
"Ignoramus20464" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.20464.invalid> wrote in message news:3qidneRPar_r2_PW...@giganews.com...
Wes
>Anyone would have any idea?
Wear in the delrin bushing. IIRC, the fit between the bushing and the shaft of the other
pulley flange should be 0.001".
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Ayup. A very very common issue with Clausings and pretty cheap to
replace.
Gunner
Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.
Ignoramus3837
> On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 16:50:15 +1100, "Grumpy" <tomi...@melbpc.org.au>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Ignoramus20464" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.20464.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:3qidneRPar_r2_PW...@giganews.com...
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPOSb_VhQq8
>>>
>>> My variable speed drive, both pullies actually, wobble when they
>>> operate. I shot a video of it at 5 Hz. It appears to be crooked or off
>>> center. Might be some bushing missing or something. It could be that
>>> the wobble in the primary pulley causes wobble in the driven pulley.
>>>
>>> Anyone would have any idea?
>>>
>>> i
>>
>> Not sure, but I'd pull the belt off and see if the bearing/bushing inside
>>the pulley has a lot of play due to wear.
>>
> Ayup. A very very common issue with Clausings and pretty cheap to
> replace.
>
You guys mean the bushing inside the outer variable pulley on the
motor, right?
I will take the lower VS assembly apart today and will look, as I need
to get a few parts from Clausing anyway.
i
Existential Angst
news:F5WdnT_-pft6SvPW...@giganews.com...
In which case, as per Gummer's sig, grab yer wallet and yer ass.....
--
EA
>
> i
Wes
>
>You guys mean the bushing inside the outer variable pulley on the
>motor, right?
>
>I will take the lower VS assembly apart today and will look, as I need
>to get a few parts from Clausing anyway.
Yup. http://wess.freeshell.org/bushing2.jpg
Wes
Joseph Gwinn
Ignoramus20464 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.20464.invalid> wrote:
Yes. My 5914 had a very bad wobble, which turned out to be due to the
bottom VS pulley assembly coming loose on the motor shaft and battering
itself. The root cause was a setscrew that had become loose, but
neglect by the prior owner or owners had allowed the problem to worsen.
The whole story is in "Clausing 5914 VariDrive Wobble" and children
posted to RCM in January 2008.
Joe Gwinn
Ignoramus3837
I disagree and find Clausing price on this line of lathes very
reasonable.
Ignoramus3837
> Ignoramus20464 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.20464.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Anyone would have any idea?
>
>
> Wear in the delrin bushing. IIRC, the fit between the bushing and the shaft of the other
> pulley flange should be 0.001".
OK, I have taken the whole thing apart, which was very easy.
Something does not yet make sense to me.
Here are some things I found out. I made a large number of photos and
will post them after some thinking.
1. The fit between the delrin bushing and the epoxied shaft on the
inner pulley, is good. The epoxy on the inner half of the pulley is
black and not green.
2. The epoxy on said shaft is in good shape.
3. The keyway between the inner and outer pulley is all beaten
up. this keyway is on the epoxied part of the inner half.
4. The 3/8" shaft, on which the hydraulics is mounted, is held in a
special bushing that is held inside the outer pulley by a retaining
ring. The ring was broken (but still there) and a small part of the
rim (part of the pulley) holding said ring, is broken off as well.
That shaft, due to not being held properly, was wobbling inside the
pulley and that partly explains why the hydraulics was wobbing as
well.
More disconcerting is that the inner hald of the pulley wobbled as
well. Yet, it was held tightly on the motor shaft. It also is cast
iron and coule not be bent and it does not look bent. Furthermore, the
motor's shaft does not look bent either. It makes no sense to me. I am
missing something.
The damage to both halves (worn keyway on the epoxied part, damaged
rim to hold the base for 3/8" shaft for hydraulics), seems to be
repairable with a little bit of nickel welding and another lathe
(I can probably use my friend's lathe, hopefully). Of course, welding
on the pulley with epoxy means that epoxy would need to be redone.
I will not start any repairs, until I get a complete understanding of
what is going on, what is not working and what is causing what.
i
Doug White
news:leOdnQR-3tSiaPPW...@giganews.com:
It depends on what you need. If it's a common replacement part, then
they are likely to have them in stock and the prices are reasonable.
It's it's a bit more unusual and they have to make one from scratch at
today's hourly wage, the prices can be astronomical. The good news is
that they will often sell you dimensioned drawings if you want to make
your own. They do the best they can to to help folks keep the older
machines in service, and I have to applaud them for that.
Doug White
Pete C.
Suspect motor mounted on resilient vibration damping mounts allowing the
wobble of the items hung way out on the shaft to cause wobble of the
motor itself.
Just an educated guess, I haven't been in one of those lathes before.
Ignoramus3837
> Yes. My 5914 had a very bad wobble, which turned out to be due to the
> bottom VS pulley assembly coming loose on the motor shaft and battering
> itself. The root cause was a setscrew that had become loose, but
> neglect by the prior owner or owners had allowed the problem to worsen.
>
> The whole story is in "Clausing 5914 VariDrive Wobble" and children
> posted to RCM in January 2008.
My issue is similar in some ways.
First of all, the thin 3/8" shaft that held the hydraulic system,
became loose and vibrated. I think that this accounted for most of the
racket.
Second, the inside lower half pulley is not a perfect fit for the
motor shaft. So, the motor shaft is not bent, the pulley half is
perfect, and yet they are not aligned.
My feeling on this matter is that vibration of the lower pulley is not
nearly as big of an issue as vibration of the hydraulic shaft.
I am tempted to paint the motor shaft, which may eliminate this
clearance, and then replace the 3/8" shaft that holds hydraulics, and
call it a success. I am reading your thread now.
i
Too_Many_Tools
> Ignoramus3837 <ignoramus3...@NOSPAM.3837.invalid> wrote innews:leOdnQR-3tSiaPPW...@giganews.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2010-02-07, Existential Angst <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
> >> "Ignoramus3837" <ignoramus3...@NOSPAM.3837.invalid> wrote in message
> >>news:F5WdnT_-pft6SvPW...@giganews.com...
> >>> On 2010-02-07, Gunner Asch <gunnera...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 16:50:15 +1100, "Grumpy"
>
> >>>>>"Ignoramus20464" <ignoramus20...@NOSPAM.20464.invalid> wrote in
> >>>>>messagenews:3qidneRPar_r2_PW...@giganews.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree....more companies should follow their example.
TMT
Gunner Asch
Unlike other models. Crom..the motor belt on my Clausing 1500 is $108
plus shipping!
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Particularly if the belt has a "stiff" spot on it.
>
>Just an educated guess, I haven't been in one of those lathes before.
Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
Joseph Gwinn
Ignoramus3837 <ignora...@NOSPAM.3837.invalid> wrote:
I would take it apart and look before coming to a conclusion.
Ultimately, the repair was not difficult.
Nor is paint strong enough. If you must, use very thin steel shimstock.
Joe Gwinn
Wes
>On 2010-02-07, Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus20464 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.20464.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>Anyone would have any idea?
>>
>>
>> Wear in the delrin bushing. IIRC, the fit between the bushing and the shaft of the other
>> pulley flange should be 0.001".
>
>OK, I have taken the whole thing apart, which was very easy.
>
>Something does not yet make sense to me.
>
>Here are some things I found out. I made a large number of photos and
>will post them after some thinking.
That would be very helpful, I read though this and was responding earler when my computer
crashed for the second time today, second time in about 3 years.
>
>1. The fit between the delrin bushing and the epoxied shaft on the
>inner pulley, is good. The epoxy on the inner half of the pulley is
>black and not green.
>
>2. The epoxy on said shaft is in good shape.
That epoxy is teflon impregnated. It is green. At least that is what I've been told.
Take that with a grain of salt though.
http://wess.freeshell.org/driven_green.jpg
The above link shows the green coating damaged showing the black coming though.
Of course the instructions that come with the delrin af bushing calls it epoxy.
http://wess.freeshell.org/bushing1.jpg
Searching around I found this link.
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/2_fillers.html
Go down a bit, teflon powder to put in epoxy. I used moglice to repair mine. I'd be
interested in trying that if I did it again.
I also might have just ran a new bushing a bit longer on the original coating.
>
>3. The keyway between the inner and outer pulley is all beaten
>up. this keyway is on the epoxied part of the inner half.
Is the cut keyway battered or is part of the delrin bushing missing the keyway section?
http://wess.freeshell.org/bushing2.jpg
>
>4. The 3/8" shaft, on which the hydraulics is mounted, is held in a
>special bushing that is held inside the outer pulley by a retaining
>ring. The ring was broken (but still there) and a small part of the
>rim (part of the pulley) holding said ring, is broken off as well.
>
>That shaft, due to not being held properly, was wobbling inside the
>pulley and that partly explains why the hydraulics was wobbing as
>well.
>
>More disconcerting is that the inner hald of the pulley wobbled as
>well. Yet, it was held tightly on the motor shaft. It also is cast
>iron and coule not be bent and it does not look bent. Furthermore, the
>motor's shaft does not look bent either. It makes no sense to me. I am
>missing something.
Do you have telescoping gages to measure the ID of motor side pulley and compare it to the
motor shaft?
>
>The damage to both halves (worn keyway on the epoxied part, damaged
>rim to hold the base for 3/8" shaft for hydraulics), seems to be
>repairable with a little bit of nickel welding and another lathe
>(I can probably use my friend's lathe, hopefully). Of course, welding
>on the pulley with epoxy means that epoxy would need to be redone.
I did some of my machining on my lathe.
http://wess.freeshell.org/spindle_driver.jpg
Threaded rod and a soft plug, stuck inside the spindle tube.
http://wess.freeshell.org/When_the_drive_is_down_you_improvise.jpg
Big drill powering spindle, held by my uncle.
>
>I will not start any repairs, until I get a complete understanding of
>what is going on, what is not working and what is causing what.
Best to study this thing carefully before doing anything permanent.
Wes
DoN. Nichols
These pulleys (assuming that they are like the ones on my
Bridgeport) have a Delrin sleeve separating the sliding pulley from the
shaft of the motor. These wear out. There is also Delrin around the
key, and if this wears out too, you start machining away the side of the
keyway in the motor shaft. (Hmm ... does yours have one of the
Vari-speed sheaves on the motor, or is it between an idler and another?)
I had to get a replacement rotor for my Bridgeport's motor. The rebuild
kits are relatively inexpensive, when compared with the price of new
motors or shafts -- but some shops believe in "run them until they die"
and never sink the time into replacing the sleeves and bonding the new
ones into place properly.
Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Existential Angst
news:318um599f00vk3voo...@4ax.com...
Isn't the service group for Clausing an umbrella-type group that does
Kalamazoo saws, Clausing, and, iirc, BP?? mebbe a cupla others?
These muthafuckas wanted $900 for an effing cutoff switch for the Kal (that
you coulda made from a piece of 1/8x1/2 alum and a HD toggle light switch),
and $1300 for just part of the mechanical variable speed control.....
Even the rep on the phone said, Goddammmmmm........
Mebbe Ig is independently wealthy.....
--
EA
Ignoramus11495
1. The motor shaft is completely straight (no surprise)
The fit between the lower inner pulley hub and the motor shaft is not
good and, therefore, the said hub does not want to sit straight.
This accounts only for a smaller part of vibration.
2. The hydraulic stuff sits on a long 3/8" shaft, which is held in the
lower outer pulley half by a bushing and retaining ring. Retaining
ring sits in a circle in the sald pulley half. A part of the cast iron
rim on this half is gone and the retaining ring was broken. The
bushing had a lot of wear near the retaining ring and the whole thing
vibrated a lot. I believe that eventually vibration would destroy
everything.
I ordered the retaining ring. I asked Clausing how much it is to
replace the shaft with bushing. If the shaft/bushing is affordable, I
will just buy it, if not, I can make the replacement on the
lathe/mill, it is not complicated.
i
On 2010-02-07, Ignoramus20464 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.20464.invalid> wrote:
Wes
>A little update on this. I believe that I have the "full picture".
>
>1. The motor shaft is completely straight (no surprise)
>The fit between the lower inner pulley hub and the motor shaft is not
>good and, therefore, the said hub does not want to sit straight.
>
>This accounts only for a smaller part of vibration.
>
>2. The hydraulic stuff sits on a long 3/8" shaft, which is held in the
>lower outer pulley half by a bushing and retaining ring. Retaining
>ring sits in a circle in the sald pulley half. A part of the cast iron
>rim on this half is gone and the retaining ring was broken. The
>bushing had a lot of wear near the retaining ring and the whole thing
>vibrated a lot. I believe that eventually vibration would destroy
>everything.
>
>I ordered the retaining ring. I asked Clausing how much it is to
>replace the shaft with bushing. If the shaft/bushing is affordable, I
>will just buy it, if not, I can make the replacement on the
>lathe/mill, it is not complicated.
>
>i
Did you ever post pictures?
Wes
Ignoramus11495
I thin that I never did, but I have them, here
http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Clausing-6913-Lathe/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble/
Wes
>I think that I never did, but I have them, here
>
>http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Clausing-6913-Lathe/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble/
That looks like the snap ring groove is partialy busted out. That would cause grief. Some
idjit tried to move the sheaves when the drive system wasn't running.
That isn't pretty. It looks like the key cut into the left side of your motor side
pulley. Is that so?
What is the key way condition of?
http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Clausing-6913-Lathe/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble-6379.jpg.html
Wes
Ignoramus11495
> Ignoramus11495 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.11495.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>I think that I never did, but I have them, here
>>
>>http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Clausing-6913-Lathe/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble/
>
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Clausing-6913-Lathe/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble-6386.jpg.html
>
> That looks like the snap ring groove is partialy busted out. That
> would cause grief. Some idjit tried to move the sheaves when the
> drive system wasn't running.
Yes, it is partially busted, I think from just bad design and
fatigue. I think that the lathe worked for a few years with the groove
so busted.
I think that I can live with this ring busted. I think that the real
cause of thin end shaft vibration was that 1) it wore near the snap
ring 2) the snap ring cracked.
I think that when I get the new shaft and bushing assembly, which
turned out to be not too expensive, and install it with a good snap
ring, it should be better.
> http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Clausing-6913-Lathe/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble-6387.jpg.html
>
> That isn't pretty. It looks like the key cut into the left side of your motor side
> pulley. Is that so?
>
> What is the key way condition of?
Not great condition, but, I think, fixing it is is painful due to
epoxy lining. If epoxy was not an issue, I would just weld it with
nickel and machine.
I know that you did redo epoxy lining, maybe I should look to your
example. I do not have a drill big enough to spin the spindle. But
maybe I can do something else.
Did you buy it from DeVitt machinery?
i
Wes
>On 2010-02-09, Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus11495 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.11495.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>
>> http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Clausing-6913-Lathe/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble-6386.jpg.html
>>
>> That looks like the snap ring groove is partialy busted out. That
>> would cause grief. Some idjit tried to move the sheaves when the
>> drive system wasn't running.
>
>Yes, it is partially busted, I think from just bad design and
>fatigue. I think that the lathe worked for a few years with the groove
>so busted.
>
>I think that I can live with this ring busted. I think that the real
>cause of thin end shaft vibration was that 1) it wore near the snap
>ring 2) the snap ring cracked.
>
>I think that when I get the new shaft and bushing assembly, which
>turned out to be not too expensive, and install it with a good snap
>ring, it should be better.
>
I hope you can get by w/o fixing that.
>> http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Clausing-6913-Lathe/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble/06-Variable-Speed-Drive-Wobble-6387.jpg.html
>>
>> That isn't pretty. It looks like the key cut into the left side of your motor side
>> pulley. Is that so?
>>
>> What is the key way condition of?
>
>Not great condition, but, I think, fixing it is is painful due to
>epoxy lining. If epoxy was not an issue, I would just weld it with
>nickel and machine.
>
>I know that you did redo epoxy lining, maybe I should look to your
>example. I do not have a drill big enough to spin the spindle. But
>maybe I can do something else.
>
>Did you buy it from DeVitt machinery?
Yes. I'm still waiting to see how durable it is. I used a coating thinner than
recommended. If you do decide at some point to use moglice, I'd call dewitt and get some
recomendations on product and cleaners to make for the best results and adhesion. I just
bought the two part coating and since they charged OVER 3O bucks for a 'hazmat' fee, I
wasn't interested in buying cleaning agents as a second orderafter I realized those
existed. I used brakleen instead.
I've recieved a lot of ORM-D stuff. Seldom is there a up charge. I have a rather bad
feeling for Dewitt's shipping practices.
If you have to weld it up, then you might want to try an idea I had, which was to have the
shaft portion of the pulley polished and hard chromed. Living near Chigago, there has to
be someone that can plate it.
My other thought is given the new bushing looks like it is Delrin AF vs some other plastic
used years ago, is the coating even necessary?
http://www.plasticsintl.com/datasheets/1884849888Delrin_100AF.pdf
The coefficent of friction relative to Delrin AF on steel is .19 which is better than a
brass bushing iirc. I didn't look up the latter but I'm thinking it is .3 or so.
As you can guess, I'm not sure I made the best choices when rebuilding my drive. Oh well,
it works so far. If I could go back, I'd just bore new bushings to fit and run it and
see. Sometimes I get a bit anal on repairs. ( But not on shop cleaning :) )