The Future of US Kids Making Stuff...
Pinstripe Sniper
student body elections at the super nerdy Bedford Stuyvesant High
School in New York City. It's a public high school so perhaps it
represents the US population more so than a Phillips Academy.
It's a charming glimpse into a world of smart, motivated young people.
Where I am going with this is? Well most of us in RCM
(rec.crafts.metalworking) like to make stuff and most of us probably
started when we were young.
I only know about the US and pose the question in the context of the
US but I'd sure be interested in how other countries are fairing,
especially those where manufacturing is healthy and expanding.
I wonder if/where/how many of the young Americans nowadays get the
inspiration to make stuff? (Kids of RCMers are probably in good
shape)
Aren't High School shop classes practically extinct?
Plastic scale model building is like HAM radio and populated mostly by
middle-aged dudes. (raises hand)
I am told that Lego is doing pretty well.
Is that robot wars combat tv show still going? BattleBots?
Hey there's still Myth Busters.
What sources of inspiration/motivation/education exist for our young
people?
PsS
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A fictional account of how to drastically reform the financial world...
More at http://PinstripeSniper.blogspot.com and if that gets banned, check
www.PinstripeSniper.com
anorton
"Pinstripe Sniper" <very...@nocando.com> wrote in message
news:4b5897b0....@news.flex.com...
The type of kid who used to be into ham radio or perhaps hot rods is now
building custom computers with overclocked quad processors, overclocked DDR3
memory, dual graphics cards, diamond powder heat sink grease, water cooling,
LED case lights, etc. They have races with performance benchmark programs.
cavelamb
But all these guys would be doing is assembling pre-made parts.
Who among them could wire-wrap a new circuit?
--
Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/
"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time. For the clock may soon be still."
sparky
wrote:
> "Pinstripe Sniper" <veryso...@nocando.com> wrote in message
> > check
> >www.PinstripeSniper.com
>
> The type of kid who used to be into ham radio or perhaps hot rods is now
> building custom computers with overclocked quad processors, overclocked DDR3
> memory, dual graphics cards, diamond powder heat sink grease, water cooling,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Assembling is not building !
anorton
"cavelamb" <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4oKdndfWudJ4N87W...@earthlink.com...
What these folks do is a little more than plug and play. Actually I think it
is not that much different than hot rodding. You have to figure out what
components to buy that are compatible. Figure out how much cooling you
need, how big a power supply etc. Maybe you scrounge some things from older
systems. Then when you assemble it you have to debug it (wrong jumper or
bios settings etc.). Then you fiddle around with countless settings to
optimize it and add a few or more custom touches to the case. Its a
different set of skills, but it is a set of skills.
I bet there aren't even many electronic techs these days who wire wrap. I am
an optical engineer not electrical, but I have not seen a wire wrapped
circuit in a LONG time. I think it is a lot easier now to layout a circuit
in cad, print the transparency and get the board made. All the electrical
engineers I know do that even for prototypes now. They still end up
soldering a few jumper wires and cutting a few traces on the first article.
The younger guys who do this are the same ones who started out building
computers.
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
> "cavelamb" <cavel...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>...
>
> I bet there aren't even many electronic techs these days who wire wrap. I am
> an optical engineer not electrical, but I have not seen a wire wrapped
[Raised hand]
I still do
With a pencil-like hand tool
In the snow
uphill
both ways
Strip the wire with my thumbnail, too.
jsw
Michael A. Terrell
I have about 5,000 feet of 30 AWG wire on hand, and my hand wire wrap
tools. The only thing that stops me is Carpal Tunnel which makes it
almost impossible to hold those tools, or tiny screwdrivers. I tend to
drop them after about 30 seconds. :(
I do use some of it to repair broken copper traces, on my better
days. :)
--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
Joe Pfeiffer
haven't done any wire-wrapping in a long time. The tool is in my desk
drawer, though.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
DoN. Nichols
[ ... ]
> I bet there aren't even many electronic techs these days who wire wrap. I am
> an optical engineer not electrical, but I have not seen a wire wrapped
> circuit in a LONG time. I think it is a lot easier now to layout a circuit
> in cad, print the transparency and get the board made. All the electrical
> engineers I know do that even for prototypes now. They still end up
> soldering a few jumper wires and cutting a few traces on the first article.
> The younger guys who do this are the same ones who started out building
> computers.
For prototype boards I will either use a powered breadboard for
the ICs or wire-wrap depending on the complexity (will it overflow the
breadboard's capacity?).
I've got electric wire-wrap tools, hand powered ones, and twirl
a skinny tool purely manual ones -- along with the unwrapping tool as
well.
I've built lots of things by wire-wrap, and am glad to have
sufficient of the specialized wire and sockets for continuing that at need.
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Thats like watching a bunch of kids adding doodads to a Honda Civic. It
still runs though a bit slower now with all the weight. But thats about
all that can be said for it...a Bling Mobile.
Gunner
"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the
means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not
making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of
it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different
countries, that the more public provisions were made for the
poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became
poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the
more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Benjamin
Franklin, /The Encouragement of Idleness/, 1766
Bruce L. Bergman
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I have about 5,000 feet of 30 AWG wire on hand, and my hand wire wrap
>tools. The only thing that stops me is Carpal Tunnel which makes it
>almost impossible to hold those tools, or tiny screwdrivers. I tend to
>drop them after about 30 seconds. :(
>
> I do use some of it to repair broken copper traces, on my better
>days. :)
I kept several air-wrap and hand gear-head wrap tools (pull the
trigger and it wraps) from long ago, and a bunch of 22-24-26 GA
tooling,and the strippers, but don't have any excuses to use them.
Of course, first I'd have to find a bunch of the 1/4" fabric-jacket
air line to make new whips for them, or switch over to the new
polyurethane hose...
The air guns are great for saving wrists and hands, I used to go all
night (literally!) wrapping terminal blocks - you just have to be
steady enough to strip and feed the gun.
--<< Bruce >>--
Don Foreman
Pinstripe Sniper
>>Assembling is not building !
>Thats like watching a bunch of kids adding doodads to a Honda Civic. It
>still runs though a bit slower now with all the weight. But thats about
>all that can be said for it...a Bling Mobile.
>Gunner
LOL! Don't these young punks know that the best way to make the car
go faster is with a big bold sticker.
PsS
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A fictional account of how to drastically reform the financial world...
More at http://PinstripeSniper.blogspot.com and if that gets banned, check
www.PinstripeSniper.com
Wes
>LOL! Don't these young punks know that the best way to make the car
>go faster is with a big bold sticker.
Nah, you put an extra can of octane booster in it ;)
Gunner Asch
Sniper) wrote:
>Gunner Asch <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>
>>>Assembling is not building !
>
>>Thats like watching a bunch of kids adding doodads to a Honda Civic. It
>>still runs though a bit slower now with all the weight. But thats about
>>all that can be said for it...a Bling Mobile.
>>Gunner
>
>LOL! Don't these young punks know that the best way to make the car
>go faster is with a big bold sticker.
>
>PsS
A Chinese buddy once saw a BlingMobile go by, with a nice bold
ornimental graphic on the side...Chinese ideographs and he busted up
laughing like a lunatic. Seems the seller/manufacture had a good time
and had sold them graphics which said "Driver has tiny penis" in the
Chinese language.
<G>
Gunner
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>A fictional account of how to drastically reform the financial world...
>More at http://PinstripeSniper.blogspot.com and if that gets banned, check
>www.PinstripeSniper.com
"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the
Boris Mohar
Frnak McKenney
> wrote:
>> "Pinstripe Sniper" <veryso...@nocando.com> wrote in message
>> news:4b5897b0....@news.flex.com...
>> > I only know about the US and pose the question in the context
>> > of the US but I'd sure be interested in how other countries are
>> > fairing, especially those where manufacturing is healthy and
>> > expanding.
>>
>> > I wonder if/where/how many of the young Americans nowadays get
>> > the inspiration to make stuff? (Kids of RCMers are probably in
>> > good shape)
>> > What sources of inspiration/motivation/education exist for our
>> > young people?
>> The type of kid who used to be into ham radio or perhaps hot rods
>> is now building custom computers with overclocked quad
>> processors, overclocked DDR3 memory, dual graphics cards, diamond
>> powder heat sink grease, water cooling, LED case lights, etc.
>> They have races with performance benchmark programs.
>
sparky,
I can sympathize with what I think is the sentiment behind your
statement, but it's a bit nebulous; I'm having trouble anchoring it
to a concrete example.
Which of the following exercises in electronics, for example, should
be considered "assembling" and which would be "building":
o Plugging Arduino "shield" boards onto the processor board and
writing software for the package? (Think VME or S-100 if you're
not familiar with the Arduino <grin!>)
o Hand-soldering components onto a manufactured PC board?
o Etching your own PC board?
o Wire-wrapping instead of soldering?
o Soldering components to solder lugs and strips?
o Screwing wires down on an old bread board instead of soldering
then together?
o Using only discrete components, e.g. transistors and no ICs?
o Winding your own toroids (transformers), rubbing pencils on
paper to make resistors, and using tinfoil and wax paper for
capacitors? (These all work, by the way.)
o Drawing your own wire and personally vacuuming your tubes?
Okay, okay... I'm getting silly. <grin!>
But the point I'm trying to make (the hard way(*)) is that both of
those words -- "assembly" and "building" -- have a lot of overlap.
If I've followed the discussion so far (an assumption, as it's early
yet <grin!>) the distinction that is being drawn is not so much what
the materials themselves are as how they are being combined, what is
being achieved, and, to a certain extent, what the assembler -- and
perhaps the audience -- is learning or discovering in the process.
It gets messy (as do most things involving human beings and Values
<grin!>). Building a simple, unadorned bookshelf or a birdhouse,
for example, could be a boring, rote-assembly job. On the other
hand, if done by a teen who has never worked in wood before, it
represents a huge increase in experience as far as working with
tools and materials.
Likewise, building a Heathkit Color TV set, as my father and my
sister Beth did some years back, could for some people be a simple
acquisition of mechanical skills followed by the exhibition of a
Status Symbol, or it could mean the beginnings of an understanding
of electronic circuitry and the principles of radio and TV signals.
To an onlooker, buth might look the same.
So what's the difference?
I think the word "attitude" sums up a lot of it. A focus on
learning as much as possible from each project or experience. A
desire to tackle problems rather than avoid them. An urge to
explore new territory, to try new things, or to try old things in
new ways. A desire to complete things (an often-overlooked but
highly desirable quality <grin!>), and an enjoyment of making things
happen and seeing the end result.
And these qualities seem to build on one another. The satisfaction
of completing a project makes one more eager to take on a new one,
and learning (say) how to cast metal adds the concept of creating a
new part rather than searching catalogs for it a part of one's
problem-solving repertoire. And seeing the wonderful sparks one can
create with simple household items such as a screwdriver and a lamp
socket often leads one to a deeper understanding of electricity (and
fuses and circuit breakers <grin!>).
All that said, here's a paradox for you: much, perhaps all, of the
"creativity" I'm describing depends on at least two things: the
"rote assembly" effort required to _provide_ whatever basic building
blocks one happens to be using at any given time, and the time and
other resources needed to study the problem at hand and devise --
and hopefully implement -- a solution.
If we define "rote assembly" as "crud", then are we simply seeing
Sturgeon's Law at work here? ("It's not just science fiction;
ninety percent of _everything_ is crud!") This is obscured by
narratives (tales, movies, television) because they leave out all
the dull, monotonous bits of life and keep only the pieces that
spark our interest, but we all know that those boring bits are
really there.
Worse, for each of us, what starts as a new experience (learning how
to etch PC boards, say) soon becomes our own "rote assembly" as we
build upon it to tackle other projects. It was fun and interesting
one time, but after the tenth or hundredth time we transfer resist
onto copper-clad the idea of farming the work out becomes more and
more appealing.
Of course, if we're lucky, we find new and better ways of having the
"rote assembly" stuff being done by someone else. <grin!>
Frank McKenney
(*) Tony Curtis, "Operation Petticoat"
--
If there was nothing wrong in the world there wouldn't be
anything for us to do. -- George Bernard Shaw
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all)
RoyJ
Heathkit had a 3 channel light show that I got and ASSEMBLED using
discrete wiring. I thought that was so much fun that I took the circuit,
modified it for 5 channels, doubled it up so it would work on the
stereo, did a circuit board, made a nice wood cabinet, and BUILT the new
unit.
Michael A. Terrell
All of my wire wrap was done with hand tools. I have a couple OK
electric wire wrap tools, but they were both damaged when I got them so
I was never able to use them.
I still have some perfboard and prototype boards somewhere, but my
electronics shop is unusable due to a damaged roof. Everything is
covered in plastic till I can save about $5,000 for the repairs.
Jim Wilkins
<fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
> ...
> Which of the following exercises in electronics, for example, should
> be considered "assembling" and which would be "building":
> Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
There is no simple answer. it's always the question of what to buy vs
build. Hams used to make their own coils, to a lesser extent
capacitors, and originally their diodes. Usually the best choice is to
buy commercial stock and customize it, whether it's tubing or
transistors.
Personally I've cut the tree and built the sawmill, reground the
planer blades, hardened and tempered the chisel, but those go way
beyond the accepted definition of custom woodworking. Electronics and
metalworking both depend on raw material that's extremely difficult to
make on a small scale. We are limited to cutting and rearranging,
except for the rare project that demands blacksmithing iron or gluing
copper foil onto sculpted fiberglass shapes.
jsw
Wes
>
>
>http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jan/15/students-evacuated-school-chollas-view/
Is the kid and his parents supposed to get counseling so they won't figure out their
rights had just been violated?
I'd have liked to see just what school policy was violated. That was piss poor reporting.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Jim Stewart
But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't
believe ya'.
co_f...@yahoo.com
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Assembling is not building !
I have to disagree. I would challenge you to identify anything that is
not made up of parts that are assembled. Even cutting up steel and
welding the pieces together to build a device is assembling the pieces
you cut up. I guess if you made something of concrete, that is not
assembled, but if you used concrete block to make the same thing, that
is assembly.
By the same token, putting your newspapers into a recycle bin is not
recycling. Taking scrap metal to a central recycle site is not
recycling. The only true recyclers are the HSM people like us who
disassemble something and salvage the usable metal to make or repair
something. I once recycled my wife's worn out hand egg beater to get
the stainless steel strips that I later used to repair the split
handle on a cooking pot. Or the furnace fan I pulled from the metal
bin at the local transfer station. I welded up a frame with wheels and
mounted the fan in it to make a powerful fan to bring in cool air for
my business during the summer.
All is not lost, however. A gal that I worked with years ago reported
on Facebook that her oldest son had his 16th birthday Sunday and
celebrated by going to the local wrecking yard to get parts for his
pickup. Pretty rare, I think.
As far as electronics, We have an engineer customer who designs builds
light controls for rock shows,(Rolling Stones,etc.). His thing is ease
of repair when things die. Always designs with leaded components that
can be repaired out in the field, probably at night. Well, John was in
the office this morning when I got in. He was sad because he was
having us place some components on a prototype board for him. The only
devices he could get to do the job had to be soldered to large copper
pads to act as heat sinks. Can only be done in an oven and can't be
repaired in the field. He said if the board dies, they will have to
toss it and put in a new board.
Paul, KD7HB
Pete C.
I think the difference between "assembling" and "building" mostly comes
down to learning about and understanding how the item you are working on
actually operates. "Assembling" some bling on your Civic or PC and
saying "look at the cool xxxx", vs. "building" and modifying something
not designed by someone else to go on your Civic or PC and making it
work there.
steamer
relatively recent trend. Great fun and an amazing variety of creations. Much
networking results too.
--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : To help the helpless
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : To comfor the fearful...
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
Jim Wilkins
> Jim Wilkins wrote:
> > ....
>
> But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't
> believe ya'.
They don't believe me when I SHOW them, they think it's a trick, or
worse they try, fail and give up in disgust.
For example I tied a square knot to help a friend who was welding a
fire escape ladder test-assemble it against a tree. The knot pulled
very tight and he couldn't undo it, so he called me back to help. I
climbed the ladder, reached over with one hand and yanked a free end
to straighten that part, then slid it off with a second quick one-hand
tug.
HOW'D YOU DO THAT?????
Many of the descriptions I've written here would be much easier to
demonstrate in person, but I need the technical writing practice.
jsw
amdx
"Frnak McKenney" <fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote in message
news:XtednQn7GIKxGcnW...@earthlink.com...
Why would you stop at just vacuuming the tubes?
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vacuum_tube.html
Mike :-)
DoN. Nichols
> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:22:11 GMT, very...@nocando.com (Pinstripe
> Sniper) wrote:
[ ... ]
>>I am told that Lego is doing pretty well.
>>
>>Is that robot wars combat tv show still going? BattleBots?
>>Hey there's still Myth Busters.
>>
>>What sources of inspiration/motivation/education exist for our young
>>people?
[ ... ]
And -- just for a laugh related to that, check out this
particular web comic:
Gunner Asch
>Boris Mohar <borism...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jan/15/students-evacuated-school-chollas-view/
>
>
>Is the kid and his parents supposed to get counseling so they won't figure out their
>rights had just been violated?
>
>I'd have liked to see just what school policy was violated. That was piss poor reporting.
>
>Wes
Evil Gatorade bottles....fuck me to tears.....
"Luque said the project was made of an empty half-liter Gatorade bottle
with some wires and other electrical components attached. There was no
substance inside.
When police and the Metro Arson Strike Team responded, they also found
electrical components in the student's backpack, Luque said. After
talking to the student, it was decided about 1 p.m. to evacuate the
school as a precaution while the item was examined. Students were
escorted to a nearby playing field, and parents were called and told
they could come pick up their children.
A MAST robot took pictures of the device and X-rays were evaluated.
About 3 p.m., the device was determined to be harmless, Luque said."
Fascinating how California schools continue to go straight into the
toilet
Gunner
F. George McDuffee
>I wonder if/where/how many of the young Americans nowadays get the
>inspiration to make stuff? (Kids of RCMers are probably in good
>shape)
While a very good question with the potential for severe impact
on the national defense [think embargoes by our current
suppliers], it ignores the WIIFM [what's in it for me?] factor
for both the young Americans and their parents.
There is a limited [and shrinking] amount of disposable time and
income, and the more you "invest" in making stuff, the less is
available for important things such as golf, basketball and
football practice and study to keep the GPA and SAT/ACT scores
high. Any spare time is used on socially approved volunteer work
to pad the college application or to get some more time in at the
McJob.
"Making stuff," like everything else, is largely absorbed by
osmosis by close contact with a parent that "makes stuff." More
yada-yada-yada and blah-blah-blah won't change a thing. A
positive answer to WIIFM might.
Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).
DoN. Nichols
> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:31:39 -0800 (PST), sparky <spar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 17, 6:48�pm, "anorton" <anor...@removethis.ix.netcom.com>
>> wrote:
>>> "Pinstripe Sniper" <veryso...@nocando.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4b5897b0....@news.flex.com...
[ ... ]
>>> The type of kid who used to be into ham radio or perhaps hot rods
>>> is now building custom computers with overclocked quad
>>> processors, overclocked DDR3 memory, dual graphics cards, diamond
>>> powder heat sink grease, water cooling, LED case lights, etc.
>>> They have races with performance benchmark programs.
>>
>> Assembling is not building !
>
> sparky,
>
> I can sympathize with what I think is the sentiment behind your
> statement, but it's a bit nebulous; I'm having trouble anchoring it
> to a concrete example.
>
> Which of the following exercises in electronics, for example, should
> be considered "assembling" and which would be "building":
O.K. I'll give my personal opinion of each of these as applied
to me.
> o Plugging Arduino "shield" boards onto the processor board and
> writing software for the package? (Think VME or S-100 if you're
> not familiar with the Arduino <grin!>)
Having just looked up the "shield" boards, The only part of this
which *I* would consider "building" would be the writing of the
software.
> o Hand-soldering components onto a manufactured PC board?
Just assembling -- unless the manufactured PC board is a
prototyping board, and you are building your own design of circuit on
it.
> o Etching your own PC board?
To your own design -- or using a layout from a magazine or other
publication?
> o Wire-wrapping instead of soldering?
Generally -- building -- with the exception of things like one
computer kit which was supplied as wire-wrap with full instructions (I
forget the name, but it was the basis on which the "Sargon" chess
program was first written. If it is your own design, and your own
choice of circuit layout -- certainly building.
> o Soldering components to solder lugs and strips?
Again -- where does the design and layout come from? I remember
Popular Electronics and similar magazines in the old days had
"pictorial" diagrams showing the layout and the type of terminal strips
to use -- and these are closer to "assembling" to my mind.
> o Screwing wires down on an old bread board instead of soldering
> then together?
Almost certainly your own design of circuit, so "building".
> o Using only discrete components, e.g. transistors and no ICs?
Duplicating someone else's published design, or your own design?
> o Winding your own toroids (transformers), rubbing pencils on
> paper to make resistors, and using tinfoil and wax paper for
> capacitors? (These all work, by the way.)
Aside from the winding of torroids (or air-core or ferrite core
transformers), these are more a learning experience than a project to
make something for long-term use. But I would still class these as
"building" not "assembling".
> o Drawing your own wire and personally vacuuming your tubes?
*Serious* building. Probably weaving and waxing your own
insulation for the wreis as well. :-)
> Okay, okay... I'm getting silly. <grin!>
I think that my distinction between assembling and building is
whether two or more people doing the same project would result in a
nearly identical final product. When personal creativity comes into
it, so things look different and behave differently, I would consider it
"building". If just following detailed instructions, then it is simply
"assembling".
> But the point I'm trying to make (the hard way(*)) is that both of
> those words -- "assembly" and "building" -- have a lot of overlap.
> If I've followed the discussion so far (an assumption, as it's early
> yet <grin!>) the distinction that is being drawn is not so much what
> the materials themselves are as how they are being combined, what is
> being achieved, and, to a certain extent, what the assembler -- and
> perhaps the audience -- is learning or discovering in the process.
O.K.
> It gets messy (as do most things involving human beings and Values
><grin!>). Building a simple, unadorned bookshelf or a birdhouse,
> for example, could be a boring, rote-assembly job. On the other
> hand, if done by a teen who has never worked in wood before, it
> represents a huge increase in experience as far as working with
> tools and materials.
O.K.
> Likewise, building a Heathkit Color TV set, as my father and my
> sister Beth did some years back, could for some people be a simple
> acquisition of mechanical skills followed by the exhibition of a
> Status Symbol, or it could mean the beginnings of an understanding
> of electronic circuitry and the principles of radio and TV signals.
> To an onlooker, buth might look the same.
>
> So what's the difference?
Well ... the most complex Heathkit which I ever put together was
the AJ-15 FM tuner -- a very nice tuner for the period. However, I
would only have considered it "assembling" -- except for the
modification which I made to it to allow rack mounting to go with the
rest of my audio equipment.
Quite a few Heathkits (and other brands, such as Paco for test
equipment) prior to and after that. I had no desire for a TV, which is
probably why I did not build that kit. I still have the Paco RF signal
generator, FWIW -- one of my first kits.
> I think the word "attitude" sums up a lot of it. A focus on
> learning as much as possible from each project or experience. A
> desire to tackle problems rather than avoid them. An urge to
> explore new territory, to try new things, or to try old things in
> new ways. A desire to complete things (an often-overlooked but
> highly desirable quality <grin!>), and an enjoyment of making things
> happen and seeing the end result.
Yes -- but most of the kits were simply a means to an end.
Sometimes that end was building things of my own design.
> And these qualities seem to build on one another. The satisfaction
> of completing a project makes one more eager to take on a new one,
> and learning (say) how to cast metal adds the concept of creating a
> new part rather than searching catalogs for it a part of one's
> problem-solving repertoire.
Indeed.
> And seeing the wonderful sparks one can
> create with simple household items such as a screwdriver and a lamp
> socket often leads one to a deeper understanding of electricity (and
> fuses and circuit breakers <grin!>).
Reminds me of some fellows in one of the dorms which had thermal
only circuit breakers. As a result, they could arc weld directly from
the line for about fifteen seconds, then let it cool down for a couple
of minutes before the next weld cycle. :-)
> All that said, here's a paradox for you: much, perhaps all, of the
> "creativity" I'm describing depends on at least two things: the
> "rote assembly" effort required to _provide_ whatever basic building
> blocks one happens to be using at any given time, and the time and
> other resources needed to study the problem at hand and devise --
> and hopefully implement -- a solution.
>
> If we define "rote assembly" as "crud", then are we simply seeing
> Sturgeon's Law at work here? ("It's not just science fiction;
> ninety percent of _everything_ is crud!") This is obscured by
> narratives (tales, movies, television) because they leave out all
> the dull, monotonous bits of life and keep only the pieces that
> spark our interest, but we all know that those boring bits are
> really there.
>
> Worse, for each of us, what starts as a new experience (learning how
> to etch PC boards, say) soon becomes our own "rote assembly" as we
> build upon it to tackle other projects. It was fun and interesting
> one time, but after the tenth or hundredth time we transfer resist
> onto copper-clad the idea of farming the work out becomes more and
> more appealing.
Actually -- my early PC work started with hand painted resist to
draw the circuit -- followed by etching in nitric acid. :-)
Later, the photo-resist allowed me to lay out with tape on
paper, then make a photographic negative (Kodalith Ortho), and expose,
develop and etch the board (using FeCl) -- none of the heat transfer
starting from computer images and photocopies onto special films.
> Of course, if we're lucky, we find new and better ways of having the
> "rote assembly" stuff being done by someone else. <grin!>
:-)
co_f...@yahoo.com
Thanks, Steamer! I have never heard of such a thing. Could only start
in California, I guess. Looks like a fun way to spend a day or two.
Paul
DoN. Nichols
> I'll give you my personal version of that from yesteryear:
>
> Heathkit had a 3 channel light show that I got and ASSEMBLED using
> discrete wiring. I thought that was so much fun that I took the circuit,
> modified it for 5 channels, doubled it up so it would work on the
> stereo, did a circuit board, made a nice wood cabinet, and BUILT the new
> unit.
A good distinction. I built one from scratch, using circuit
board laid out and assembled, and made a remote display for it which
could be replaced by any three things with standard 2-pin AC cords, thus
allowing me to set it up driving three Christmas tree strings of three
different colors.
Out of curiosity -- what colors were allocated to what frequency
bands in yours? With three colors of electric light bulbs common at the
time (behind an opal plexiglass screen), red, blue, and green, what
sequence would you allocate to each of low, middle, and high
frequencies? Some (mostly technical types) agreed with me:
Low: Red
Middle: Green
High: Blue
while others (mostly non-technical) tended to associate:
Low: Blue
Middle: Green
High: Red
Michael A. Terrell
Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:06:19 -0500, Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
>
> >Boris Mohar <borism...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jan/15/students-evacuated-school-chollas-view/
> >
> >
> >Is the kid and his parents supposed to get counseling so they won't figure out their
> >rights had just been violated?
> >
> >I'd have liked to see just what school policy was violated. That was piss poor reporting.
> >
> >Wes
>
> Evil Gatorade bottles....fuck me to tears.....
>
> "Luque said the project was made of an empty half-liter Gatorade bottle
> with some wires and other electrical components attached. There was no
> substance inside.
>
> When police and the Metro Arson Strike Team responded, they also found
> electrical components in the student's backpack, Luque said. After
> talking to the student, it was decided about 1 p.m. to evacuate the
> school as a precaution while the item was examined. Students were
> escorted to a nearby playing field, and parents were called and told
> they could come pick up their children.
>
> A MAST robot took pictures of the device and X-rays were evaluated.
> About 3 p.m., the device was determined to be harmless, Luque said."
>
> Fascinating how California schools continue to go straight into the
> toilet
If they thought there was any threat, they should have taken the
device & his backpack out of the building instead of evacuating it.
This is what happens when they refuse to hire smart people to be cops,
"because they will get bored". :(
Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
Seems like a toss-up to me.
Map audible frequency to visible light frequency, or audible
wavelength to visible light wavelength and you get the first mapping.
Map audible wavelength to visible light frequency or audible frequency
to visible light wavelength and you get the second mapping.
;-)
Too_Many_Tools
<fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Very well said Frank.
TMT
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>On 2010-01-18, Frnak McKenney <fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:31:39 -0800 (PST), sparky <spar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Jan 17, 6:48 pm, "anorton" <anor...@removethis.ix.netcom.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> "Pinstripe Sniper" <veryso...@nocando.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:4b5897b0....@news.flex.com...
>
> [ ... ]
There is assembling, building, and engineering.
Assembling requires little or no tools - no cutting or modification of
parts as supplied. Just put part A in slot B etc.
Building requires tools, and cutting or modification of parts as
supplied. May also involve welding and/or machining the materials to
apply them to the (existing) design.
Engineering involves the design and planning of an item and
cutting/modifying / welding / machining etc of raw or otherwise
supplied materials to apply them to the (original) design.
cavelamb
Change the bulbs around at random and mess with everybody's minds.
--
Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/
"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time. For the clock may soon be still."
Jim Wilkins
> ...
>
> Out of curiosity -- what colors were allocated to what frequency
> bands in yours? With three colors of electric light bulbs common at the
> time (behind an opal plexiglass screen), red, blue, and green, what
> sequence would you allocate to each of low, middle, and high
> frequencies? Some (mostly technical types) agreed with me:
>
> Low: Red
> Middle: Green
> High: Blue
Maps to the physical energy of the wavelengths
> while others (mostly non-technical) tended to associate:
> Low: Blue
> Middle: Green
> High: Red
>
> DoN.
Maps to associated emotional energy???
jsw
C Clark remove nospam
through, but the program was gutted a long time ago. I am
heartened by the bus that picks up students at my kid's
High school and takes them to the vocational school:
http://www.metroed.net/cte-day.html
So yes, there still is a vocational path in some areas.
San Jose has just centralized it. I went to a car show
there and student work was pretty nice, and the spaghetti
served for the event by the culinary students was tasty and
cheap!
-C
RoyJ
bulbs to get the response time to 'feel' right. Seems to me I used some
13 or 25 watt Christmas bulbs. Then I needed to balance the actual
light output. Colors were selected so the 'dark' colors were the low
end, the yellow was the brilliant light when you hit a high note.
So
-low channel 4 blue bulbs
-med low channel 3 green bulbs
-medium channel 3 red bulbs
-med high channel 2 orange bulbs
-high channel 1 yellow bulb.
Whole works was set up in a pair of 6" wide by 4' long by 4" deep wood
cabinets with prismatic (not opal) plastic lens hung vertically on the
wall behind the floor speakers. In-a-Godda-Da-vida was fairly
impressive. 15" Aletc-Lansings will do that. Sheesh, been a while since
I thought about such things!!!!
RoyJ
piece of paper and standard bulk materials like 6061-T6 sheet and bar,
plastic, etc. I supply a batch of smaller 12 volt gear drive motors in
various speeds and configurations. I give them free run of the
fabrication shop and the machine shop. For perhaps half of them, this is
the first time they actually have to start from scratch, get creative,
design, build, test, rebuild, and live with the results.
http://www.stthomas.edu/engineering/undergraduate/machine_competition_240.swf
Take a look at the pincer arm about 3/4 of the way through. I change the
details each semester to keep the "technology transfer" down to a
manageable level. Students get graded on the project, the competition
results are for bragging rights. The competition is done with a head to
head, single elimination style program. Gets fairly rowdy at the semi
finalist level.
They grow up fast. The Sr. Design projects are real world contracts with
regional companies. They are expected to have working prototypes ready
in May. Usually get a least one patent application every year. A few
samples:
http://www.stthomas.edu/engineering/undergraduate/senior_design/projects_pdf/2009_Biodiesel.pdf
http://www.stthomas.edu/engineering/undergraduate/senior_design/projects_pdf/2009_Polaris_Seat.pdf
I have 4 projects to watch over these days. I just got an e-mail from a
student wondering about the order for a 15" piece of 4-1/2" 304 SS that
is going into the CNC lathe. Wish I'd had access to such things at that
age.
Pinstripe Sniper wrote:
> I'm watching a dvd of "Front Runners" which is about the annual
> student body elections at the super nerdy Bedford Stuyvesant High
> School in New York City. It's a public high school so perhaps it
> represents the US population more so than a Phillips Academy.
> It's a charming glimpse into a world of smart, motivated young people.
>
> Where I am going with this is? Well most of us in RCM
> (rec.crafts.metalworking) like to make stuff and most of us probably
> started when we were young.
>
> I only know about the US and pose the question in the context of the
> US but I'd sure be interested in how other countries are fairing,
> especially those where manufacturing is healthy and expanding.
>
> I wonder if/where/how many of the young Americans nowadays get the
> inspiration to make stuff? (Kids of RCMers are probably in good
> shape)
>
> Aren't High School shop classes practically extinct?
> Plastic scale model building is like HAM radio and populated mostly by
> middle-aged dudes. (raises hand)
>
> I am told that Lego is doing pretty well.
>
> Is that robot wars combat tv show still going? BattleBots?
> Hey there's still Myth Busters.
>
> What sources of inspiration/motivation/education exist for our young
> people?
>
> PsS
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> A fictional account of how to drastically reform the financial world...
> More at http://PinstripeSniper.blogspot.com and if that gets banned, check
> www.PinstripeSniper.com
DoN. Nichols
> On 18 Jan 2010 21:58:10 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com>
> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Out of curiosity -- what colors were allocated to what frequency
>>bands in yours? With three colors of electric light bulbs common at the
>>time (behind an opal plexiglass screen), red, blue, and green, what
>>sequence would you allocate to each of low, middle, and high
>>frequencies? Some (mostly technical types) agreed with me:
>>
>> Low: Red
>> Middle: Green
>> High: Blue
>>
>>while others (mostly non-technical) tended to associate:
>>
>> Low: Blue
>> Middle: Green
>> High: Red
>>
>> Enjoy,
>> DoN.
>
> Seems like a toss-up to me.
>
> Map audible frequency to visible light frequency, or audible
> wavelength to visible light wavelength and you get the first mapping.
> Map audible wavelength to visible light frequency or audible frequency
> to visible light wavelength and you get the second mapping.
Well ... cross-mapping like that is cheating in my mind. :-)
But those who preferred the second mapping considered the
emotional significane of blue (sad, depressed, low pitch) and red (fire,
zappy, high pitch). This does not work for me, but it does for others.
DoN. Nichols
> To get any of that to work right, you needed to use fairly small wattage
> bulbs to get the response time to 'feel' right. Seems to me I used some
> 13 or 25 watt Christmas bulbs. Then I needed to balance the actual
> light output. Colors were selected so the 'dark' colors were the low
> end, the yellow was the brilliant light when you hit a high note.
>
> So
> -low channel 4 blue bulbs
> -med low channel 3 green bulbs
> -medium channel 3 red bulbs
> -med high channel 2 orange bulbs
> -high channel 1 yellow bulb.
>
> Whole works was set up in a pair of 6" wide by 4' long by 4" deep wood
> cabinets with prismatic (not opal) plastic lens hung vertically on the
> wall behind the floor speakers. In-a-Godda-Da-vida was fairly
> impressive. 15" Aletc-Lansings will do that. Sheesh, been a while since
> I thought about such things!!!!
:-)
With the opal Plexiglass, and the three lights arranged in a
straight line, (low wattage bulbs -- Christmas tree ones, or at most 25W
standard base ones), the yellow and orange colors were developed by
momentary mixing of the green and red. Purple between the blue and
green. If I had room to arrange them in a triangle behind a more square
format (or perhaps round) opal plexiglass I should have gotten even more
colors in moving patterns on the screen.
DoN. Nichols
>
> Gunner Asch wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:06:19 -0500, Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Boris Mohar <borism...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> >>http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jan/15/students-evacuated-school-chollas-view/
[ ... ]
>> "Luque said the project was made of an empty half-liter Gatorade bottle
>> with some wires and other electrical components attached. There was no
>> substance inside.
>>
>> When police and the Metro Arson Strike Team responded, they also found
>> electrical components in the student's backpack, Luque said. After
>> talking to the student, it was decided about 1 p.m. to evacuate the
>> school as a precaution while the item was examined. Students were
>> escorted to a nearby playing field, and parents were called and told
>> they could come pick up their children.
>>
>> A MAST robot took pictures of the device and X-rays were evaluated.
>> About 3 p.m., the device was determined to be harmless, Luque said."
>>
>> Fascinating how California schools continue to go straight into the
>> toilet
>
>
> If they thought there was any threat, they should have taken the
> device & his backpack out of the building instead of evacuating it.
> This is what happens when they refuse to hire smart people to be cops,
> "because they will get bored". :(
I think that their training assumes that any dangerous device
may be equipped with a motion sensor, so any attempt to move it might
detonate it. And -- they are not smart enough to second-guess their
training. :-)
Michael A. Terrell
Learning to steal coffee and doughnuts while joyriding is training?
Frnak McKenney
> I'll give you my personal version of that from yesteryear:
>
> Heathkit had a 3 channel light show that I got and ASSEMBLED using
> discrete wiring. I thought that was so much fun that I took the circuit,
> modified it for 5 channels, doubled it up so it would work on the
> stereo, did a circuit board, made a nice wood cabinet, and BUILT the new
> unit.
So this counts as both building _and_ assembling! Love it. <grin!>
And it sounds like a lot of fun.
Frank
--
Always drink upstream from the herd. -- Will Rogers
Frnak McKenney
>
> "Frnak McKenney" <fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote in message
> news:XtednQn7GIKxGcnW...@earthlink.com...
>> Which of the following exercises in electronics, for example, should
>> be considered "assembling" and which would be "building":
>>
>> o Plugging Arduino "shield" boards onto the processor board and
>> writing software for the package? (Think VME or S-100 if you're
>> not familiar with the Arduino <grin!>)
>> o Hand-soldering components onto a manufactured PC board?
>> o Etching your own PC board?
>> o Wire-wrapping instead of soldering?
>> o Soldering components to solder lugs and strips?
>> o Screwing wires down on an old bread board instead of soldering
>> then together?
>> o Using only discrete components, e.g. transistors and no ICs?
>> o Winding your own toroids (transformers), rubbing pencils on
>> paper to make resistors, and using tinfoil and wax paper for
>> capacitors? (These all work, by the way.)
>> o Drawing your own wire and personally vacuuming your tubes?
>
> Why would you stop at just vacuuming the tubes?
> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vacuum_tube.html
> Mike :-)
Thanks for the link, Mike.
Frank
--
Have you heard about the blonde who installed DSL? She wanted
an Internet connection with less pollution and better mileage.
Frnak McKenney
> On Jan 18, 10:54�am, Frnak McKenney
><fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>> ...
>> Which of the following exercises in electronics, for example, should
>> be considered "assembling" and which would be "building":
>> Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
>
> There is no simple answer. it's always the question of what to buy vs
> build. Hams used to make their own coils, to a lesser extent
> capacitors, and originally their diodes. Usually the best choice is to
> buy commercial stock and customize it, whether it's tubing or
> transistors.
>
> Personally I've cut the tree and built the sawmill, reground the
> planer blades, hardened and tempered the chisel, but those go way
> beyond the accepted definition of custom woodworking. Electronics and
> metalworking both depend on raw material that's extremely difficult to
> make on a small scale. We are limited to cutting and rearranging,
> except for the rare project that demands blacksmithing iron or gluing
> copper foil onto sculpted fiberglass shapes.
Jsw,
I'm impressed (and more than a little envious <grin!>).
You've presented me with a conundrum, though.
What, to return to the OP's query, inspired you to go to the effort
of accomplishing what you've described? And how would one go about
passing along that same inspiration, if possible, to a new
generation?
Frank
--
� Self-discipline is when your conscience tells you to do something
and you don't talk back.� -- W. K. Hope
Frnak McKenney
On 18 Jan 2010 21:43:20 GMT, DoN. Nichols <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
> On 2010-01-18, Frnak McKenney <fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:31:39 -0800 (PST), sparky <spar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
--snip--
>>> Assembling is not building !
>>
>> sparky,
>>
>> I can sympathize with what I think is the sentiment behind your
>> statement, but it's a bit nebulous; I'm having trouble anchoring it
>> to a concrete example.
>>
>> Which of the following exercises in electronics, for example, should
>> be considered "assembling" and which would be "building":
>
> O.K. I'll give my personal opinion of each of these as applied
> to me.
>
>> o Plugging Arduino "shield" boards onto the processor board and
>> writing software for the package? (Think VME or S-100 if you're
>> not familiar with the Arduino <grin!>)
>
> Having just looked up the "shield" boards, The only part of this
> which *I* would consider "building" would be the writing of the
> software.
Fair enough, DoN, since I think we're both assuming "boughten"
boards.
>> o Hand-soldering components onto a manufactured PC board?
>
> Just assembling -- unless the manufactured PC board is a
> prototyping board, and you are building your own design of circuit on
> it.
>
>> o Etching your own PC board?
>
> To your own design -- or using a layout from a magazine or other
> publication?
I can see three sub-cases here: etching a board pre-coated with
resist, applying resist from a provided pattern, and applying one's
own circuit pattern generated by (say) Eagle. Not sure what that
breakdown contributes to the discussion, though.
>> o Wire-wrapping instead of soldering?
>
> Generally -- building -- with the exception of things like one
> computer kit which was supplied as wire-wrap with full instructions (I
> forget the name, but it was the basis on which the "Sargon" chess
> program was first written. If it is your own design, and your own
> choice of circuit layout -- certainly building.
Hm...
>> o Soldering components to solder lugs and strips?
>
> Again -- where does the design and layout come from? I remember
> Popular Electronics and similar magazines in the old days had
> "pictorial" diagrams showing the layout and the type of terminal strips
> to use -- and these are closer to "assembling" to my mind.
>
>> o Screwing wires down on an old bread board instead of soldering
>> then together?
>
> Almost certainly your own design of circuit, so "building".
But if I were following instructions from (say) the ARRL manual, or
a Boy Scout Merit Badge booklet, you would consider it to be
"assembling", yes?
>> o Using only discrete components, e.g. transistors and no ICs?
>
> Duplicating someone else's published design, or your own design?
What confuses the issue is that "designs" come in different forms
and levels of detail. If we assume that a schematic is supplied,
but I select and purchase the component values specified and wire
them together, am I "building" or "assembling"?
If I get a schematic and parts in a kit, but wire the device up on a
"proto" board with my own layout (and _lots_ of jumpers <grin!>),
does that change the answer/categorization?
>> o Winding your own toroids (transformers), rubbing pencils on
>> paper to make resistors, and using tinfoil and wax paper for
>> capacitors? (These all work, by the way.)
>
> Aside from the winding of torroids (or air-core or ferrite core
> transformers), these are more a learning experience than a project to
> make something for long-term use. But I would still class these as
> "building" not "assembling".
Plus being a lot of work. <grin!>
>> o Drawing your own wire and personally vacuuming your tubes?
>
> *Serious* building. Probably weaving and waxing your own
> insulation for the wreis as well. :-)
Actually, that sounds like a lot of fun to do. Once or twice,
anyway. <grin!>
>> Okay, okay... I'm getting silly. <grin!>
(And apparently I'm not alone. <grin!>)
> I think that my distinction between assembling and building is
> whether two or more people doing the same project would result in a
> nearly identical final product. When personal creativity comes into
> it, so things look different and behave differently, I would consider it
> "building". If just following detailed instructions, then it is simply
> "assembling".
It has taken me two cups of tea, some aspirin, and a couple of Diet
Cokes, but I think that I'm starting to follow you. (I can't
_believe_ that our current Congress is considering "health care
reform" legislation that doesn't provide funding for critical
treatments like sinus transplants!)
I think I see what you're getting at, and that means I have to
re-examine my initial comments. My original focus was as much on
what the person doing the building or assembling was accomplishing
for themselves -- the learning aspect -- as it was on the visible
result, what someone else could or would see. If I throw in the
term "construction" to cover both "assembly" and "building", then
perhaps it does make more sense to separate the construction process
from skill acquisition, even though I see it as vital to the
process. (And I guess I owe sparky an apology. <grin!>)
So... if we agree on the distinction between assembling and
building (or perhaps between "following instructions" and "creating
or modifying instructions"), can we use that to address the original
poster's query about inspiring the next generation?
You mention building a number of kits. What was it that inspired
you to build your first one? If you saw "listening to the radio" as
something desirable, what made you think of building (okay,
"assembling") the AR-15 as a way to accomplish this rather than
buying one already built for you? For that matter, what allowed you
to see yourself as someone who _could_ build a kit, as a person who
could accomplish the leap from a catalog description to the finished
receiver?
--snip--
>> Likewise, building a Heathkit Color TV set, as my father and my
>> sister Beth did some years back, could for some people be a simple
>> acquisition of mechanical skills followed by the exhibition of a
>> Status Symbol, or it could mean the beginnings of an understanding
>> of electronic circuitry and the principles of radio and TV signals.
>> To an onlooker, buth might look the same.
>>
>> So what's the difference?
>
> Well ... the most complex Heathkit which I ever put together was
> the AJ-15 FM tuner -- a very nice tuner for the period. However, I
> would only have considered it "assembling" -- except for the
> modification which I made to it to allow rack mounting to go with the
> rest of my audio equipment.
>
> Quite a few Heathkits (and other brands, such as Paco for test
> equipment) prior to and after that. I had no desire for a TV, which is
> probably why I did not build that kit. I still have the Paco RF signal
> generator, FWIW -- one of my first kits.
I repaired a few TV sets during my high school years, but I have to
admit that I've never built a TV from the ground up, kit or
otherwise. The Mohican shortwave receiver my father and I built so
my mother could pick up her father's amateur transmitter in New
Jersey is still running back in my "computer lab", albeit with a few
new (socketed!) audio transistors courtesy of NTE (Ge transistors are
_expensive_!).
>> I think the word "attitude" sums up a lot of it. A focus on
>> learning as much as possible from each project or experience. A
>> desire to tackle problems rather than avoid them. An urge to
>> explore new territory, to try new things, or to try old things in
>> new ways. A desire to complete things (an often-overlooked but
>> highly desirable quality <grin!>), and an enjoyment of making things
>> happen and seeing the end result.
>
> Yes -- but most of the kits were simply a means to an end.
> Sometimes that end was building things of my own design.
>
>> And these qualities seem to build on one another. The satisfaction
>> of completing a project makes one more eager to take on a new one,
>> and learning (say) how to cast metal adds the concept of creating a
>> new part rather than searching catalogs for it a part of one's
>> problem-solving repertoire.
>
> Indeed.
Perhaps that's a key, and one I overlooked when I spoke about the
Heath TV set: some people enjoy the feedback they get from others
about what they have accomplished, and some enjoy the feeling they
get from accomplishing something, but if one gets _no_ enjoyment
from a project it's hard to sustain an interest in it.
>> And seeing the wonderful sparks one can
>> create with simple household items such as a screwdriver and a lamp
>> socket often leads one to a deeper understanding of electricity (and
>> fuses and circuit breakers <grin!>).
>
> Reminds me of some fellows in one of the dorms which had thermal
> only circuit breakers. As a result, they could arc weld directly from
> the line for about fifteen seconds, then let it cool down for a couple
> of minutes before the next weld cycle. :-)
Should I ask _what_ they were welding in a dorm room? <grin!>
>> All that said, here's a paradox for you: much, perhaps all, of the
>> "creativity" I'm describing depends on at least two things: the
>> "rote assembly" effort required to _provide_ whatever basic building
>> blocks one happens to be using at any given time, and the time and
>> other resources needed to study the problem at hand and devise --
>> and hopefully implement -- a solution.
--snip--
> Actually -- my early PC work started with hand painted resist to
> draw the circuit -- followed by etching in nitric acid. :-)
Resist pen? Or an actual paintbrush?
> Later, the photo-resist allowed me to lay out with tape on
> paper, then make a photographic negative (Kodalith Ortho), and expose,
> develop and etch the board (using FeCl) -- none of the heat transfer
> starting from computer images and photocopies onto special films.
I'm looking at making the move from point-to-point wiring on "proto"
boards to etching my own; too many useful and interesting parts are
only available in SMT packages. Problem is that I need better
eyesight or (and?) a good assembly/inspection scope to begin to
handle the little buggers people use as discretes these days. And
sneezing... _definitely_ have to give up sneezing. <grin!>
>> Of course, if we're lucky, we find new and better ways of having the
>> "rote assembly" stuff being done by someone else. <grin!>
>
> :-)
Thanks, DoN.
Frank
--
"Well done is better than well said." -- Ben Franklin
Frnak McKenney
> On 18 Jan 2010 21:43:20 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2010-01-18, Frnak McKenney <fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:31:39 -0800 (PST), sparky <spar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On Jan 17, 6:48�pm, "anorton" <anor...@removethis.ix.netcom.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> "Pinstripe Sniper" <veryso...@nocando.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4b5897b0....@news.flex.com...
>>
>> [ ... ]
>
> There is assembling, building, and engineering.
>
> Assembling requires little or no tools - no cutting or modification of
> parts as supplied. Just put part A in slot B etc.
>
> Building requires tools, and cutting or modification of parts as
> supplied. May also involve welding and/or machining the materials to
> apply them to the (existing) design.
>
> Engineering involves the design and planning of an item and
> cutting/modifying / welding / machining etc of raw or otherwise
> supplied materials to apply them to the (original) design.
clare,
Okay. If I follow you, your distinctions are based on what is being
done to/with the available materials:
o Assembling simply combines pre-selected materials according to
supplied instructions.
o Building requires adapting pre-seleceted materials and/or
instructions.
o Engineering involves creating new instructions (either from
scratch or by heavily modifying existing instructions) and/or
selecting the materials to be used.
Seems like a reasonable breakdown. Thank you.
Any suggestions on how we can inspire kids to enjoy and participate
in any of these? Or, from the other direction, ways we can
encourage kids (or adults, for that matter) to keep on doing these
things once they start?
Frank
--
"What one writer can make in the solitude of one room is something
no power can easily destroy." -- Salman Rushdie
Joe
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:31:39 -0800 (PST), sparky <spar...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>> The type of kid who used to be into ham radio or perhaps hot rods is now
>>> building custom computers with overclocked quad processors, overclocked DDR3
>>> memory, dual graphics cards, diamond powder heat sink grease, water cooling,
>>> LED case lights, etc. �They have races with performance benchmark programs.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>Assembling is not building !
>
>Thats like watching a bunch of kids adding doodads to a Honda Civic. It
>still runs though a bit slower now with all the weight. But thats about
>all that can be said for it...a Bling Mobile.
>
>Gunner
Oh, that's not true; Japanese cars go lots faster after you add a
chrome-plated coffee can to the exhaust. I mean, they make lots more
noise, so they gotta run faster, right?
Joe
Joe
While not the only source of inspiration, I find that the Steam Punk
movement creates some pretty imaginative building projects. Not
necessarily practical stuff, but there's lots of very good problem
solving going on.
Joe
Joe
<co_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Jan 17, 6:31�pm, sparky <sparky...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Assembling is not building !
>
>I have to disagree. I would challenge you to identify anything that is
>not made up of parts that are assembled. Even cutting up steel and
>welding the pieces together to build a device is assembling the pieces
>you cut up. I guess if you made something of concrete, that is not
>assembled, but if you used concrete block to make the same thing, that
>is assembly.
>
>By the same token, putting your newspapers into a recycle bin is not
>recycling. Taking scrap metal to a central recycle site is not
>recycling. The only true recyclers are the HSM people like us who
>disassemble something and salvage the usable metal to make or repair
>something. I once recycled my wife's worn out hand egg beater to get
>the stainless steel strips that I later used to repair the split
>handle on a cooking pot. Or the furnace fan I pulled from the metal
>bin at the local transfer station. I welded up a frame with wheels and
>mounted the fan in it to make a powerful fan to bring in cool air for
>my business during the summer.
>
>All is not lost, however. A gal that I worked with years ago reported
>on Facebook that her oldest son had his 16th birthday Sunday and
>celebrated by going to the local wrecking yard to get parts for his
>pickup. Pretty rare, I think.
>
>As far as electronics, We have an engineer customer who designs builds
>light controls for rock shows,(Rolling Stones,etc.). His thing is ease
>of repair when things die. Always designs with leaded components that
>can be repaired out in the field, probably at night. Well, John was in
>the office this morning when I got in. He was sad because he was
>having us place some components on a prototype board for him. The only
>devices he could get to do the job had to be soldered to large copper
>pads to act as heat sinks. Can only be done in an oven and can't be
>repaired in the field. He said if the board dies, they will have to
>toss it and put in a new board.
>
>Paul, KD7HB
Yeah, that sucks. SMT has had a generally positive impact on
technology, but has also limited the ability of people to do
component-level repairs. There's a lot of waste in throwing away a
fully populated board that contains only one bad component. In the
industrial environment I work in, we often throw entire VFD motor
drives (big 'uns - 30 HP on up) away, 'cause there's no way to
troubleshoot it, the manufacturer won't support the old stuff and
won't release the schematics and other info.
Joe
Michael A. Terrell
No. They add drag, and it slows them down. They are just more
annoying while creeping by.
Frnak McKenney
Thank you for taking the time to trim. <grin!>
On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:42:35 -0600, F George McDuffee <gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:22:11 GMT, very...@nocando.com
> (Pinstripe Sniper) wrote:
><snip>
>>I wonder if/where/how many of the young Americans nowadays get the
>>inspiration to make stuff? (Kids of RCMers are probably in good
>>shape)
><snip>
> While a very good question with the potential for severe impact
> on the national defense [think embargoes by our current
> suppliers], it ignores the WIIFM [what's in it for me?] factor
> for both the young Americans and their parents.
>
> There is a limited [and shrinking] amount of disposable time and
> income, and the more you "invest" in making stuff, the less is
> available for important things such as golf, basketball and
> football practice and study to keep the GPA and SAT/ACT scores
> high. Any spare time is used on socially approved volunteer work
> to pad the college application or to get some more time in at the
> McJob.
But... most of this time-competition existed three and four decades
ago. Parents (and some students) worried about GPAs and PSAT/SAT
scores, and sports practice certainly occupied much time and
thought; dating and socializing also ate up a lot of "free" time,
and I assume that this is still going on.
If I were looking for free-time-fillers that have increased, I might
start with television and the Internet, although some of the latter
might have to be considered "socializing" these days.
> "Making stuff," like everything else, is largely absorbed by
> osmosis by close contact with a parent that "makes stuff." More
> yada-yada-yada and blah-blah-blah won't change a thing. A
> positive answer to WIIFM might.
>
> Unka George (George McDuffee)
I can see the "osmosis" as being important, but I don't think I'd
limit it to parents (although my father did get me started with
electronics). Other adults can have an effect as well, in my case
one Woodrow Maiden(WA4GMV) who ran the Tuckahoe TV repair shop when
I was growing up and who kindly let me spend much of my after-school
time there. And some of it can come from peer groups who share an
interest in creating... or just assembling... things (The Atlanta
Hobby Robot Club comes to mind).
As for the WIIFM factor, that might be important for older teens and
adults (and parents), but I suspect that younger kids are attraced
as much or more by the "WOW" factor:
"Wow! That looked neat!"
"Wow! So _that's_ how you do that!"
"Wow! I can't believe I just did that all by myself!"
and (hopefully someday)
"Wow! I can't believe that those kids were so impressed by such
a simple thing!"
I suppose we could adopt protective coloration. Perhaps we need a
manifesto, something along the lines of:
"We are dedicated to helping children of all ages to learn to
use that spark of inspiration that exists in all of us, and to
empowering them to use their hands, hearts, and minds to
synergistically and imaginatively conceive and construct new
paradigms for interpreting the universe."
A true statement, yes? And you never know; if we added a few more
of the right kind of buzz-phrases we might get "Making Things"
funded as a new and innovative Fine Arts program. <grin!>
There's more to this -- developing any skill requires seeds
(inspiration), nutrients (reinforcement), and room to grow -- but I
think I'll go off and see if my head is actually going to explode or
if it's just another false alarm. Sigh.
Frank
--
It worked! Now, if only I could remember what I did...
Up North
My sister sent me a message the other day asking for some assistance in
choosing a kit for her 9 year old son. He is interested in electronics and
mechanical items and she really encourages her children to explore things
that interest them. Here is the link she sent.
http://www.discoverthis.com/electricity.html She is leaning towards the 75
in 1 kit on top and the Dangerous Book for Boys on the bottom left. Seth has
torn apart most of the broken electronics they had laying around and is
ready to actually learn how this stuff works.
Steve
cl...@snyder.on.ca
<fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
It is getting downright difficult to get kids involved in building
anything, as the raw materials (components) are getting difficult to
get, when it comes to electronics in particular. (unless you get right
into SMT stuff). Even assembling, other than a computer (where you buy
a motherboard, video card, case and power supply, and accessories) is
difficult because there are not many "kits" available any more.
One place where both assembly and building is still fairly common is
in experimental aviation - where you can buy a quick-build kit and
bolt/rivet it together, buy a normal kit where you drill holes, do
some bending and fitting, and bolt, weld, and rivet things together,
or buy plans and cut all the tubes, sheats, etc to proper shape and
sise, and assemble according to the plans.
For the adventuresome, you can design and build youir own plane, and
fly it.
Used to be you could build your own car, starting with a chassis from
something else, or building your own tube chassis or monocoque tub,
building or assembling your own suspension, and building your own
body, either from existing components, or from scratch - then
installing the engine of your choice, customized with either purchased
or hand-made parts, and adapted to the transmission of your choice
with either a purchased or hand-made adapter - and then upholstered,
again with either purchased, adapted, or hand made seats and trim.
That is getting a lot more difficult today if you intend to drive it
on the road - but for an autocross or track car it is still possible.
I'm scratch-building a plane, to plans, and have built kit cars,
restored old cars and helped build cars from scratch, as well as
modifying cars (hot rods).
I've assembled computers from components and built from kits, as well
as building and re-building radios and stereo equipment, as well as
all kinds of "gizmos"
I also belong to a woodworking club, where I can build just about
anything out of wood - Crokinole boards, other board games, furniture,
or what have you.
I'm in the process (slowly) of building a replica of both the Briggs &
Stratton Flier and the "Red Bug", and I built, from scratch, a few
years ago a quad cycle (side-by side 2 person "bike"), as well as a
tandem made from two old bike frames. Have a recumbent tandem about
half built too, as well as an electric "pedal hybrid" work-bike
similar to the XtraCycle with pedal power on the rear and electric on
the front, partly done and waiting for time/ambition.
Pete C.
cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
<trimmed for your reading pleasure>
>
> It is getting downright difficult to get kids involved in building
> anything, as the raw materials (components) are getting difficult to
> get, when it comes to electronics in particular. (unless you get right
> into SMT stuff).
The last time I looked, Digi-Key had through hole components readily
available. SMT really isn't that difficult either, in the past year I
did a sizable amount of SMT assembly, and with a good soldering station
and fine tip, ring light magnifier and good tweezers it goes pretty
fast. For "breadboarding", there are readily available SMT carrier PCBs
to convert the SMT chip to a leaded chip.
> Even assembling, other than a computer (where you buy
> a motherboard, video card, case and power supply, and accessories) is
> difficult because there are not many "kits" available any more.
There are still a lot of electronics kits available, even retail. Fry's
and Frys.com carry the whole Vellman line along with some other brands
of electronics kits.
>
> One place where both assembly and building is still fairly common is
> in experimental aviation - where you can buy a quick-build kit and
> bolt/rivet it together, buy a normal kit where you drill holes, do
> some bending and fitting, and bolt, weld, and rivet things together,
> or buy plans and cut all the tubes, sheats, etc to proper shape and
> sise, and assemble according to the plans.
>
> For the adventuresome, you can design and build youir own plane, and
> fly it.
The three problems with this are:
- Lot of $$$ required
- Large shop required for early stages of the build
- Hanger space at airport required for final build and subsequent
operation
>
> Used to be you could build your own car, starting with a chassis from
> something else, or building your own tube chassis or monocoque tub,
> building or assembling your own suspension, and building your own
> body, either from existing components, or from scratch - then
> installing the engine of your choice, customized with either purchased
> or hand-made parts, and adapted to the transmission of your choice
> with either a purchased or hand-made adapter - and then upholstered,
> again with either purchased, adapted, or hand made seats and trim.
>
> That is getting a lot more difficult today if you intend to drive it
> on the road - but for an autocross or track car it is still possible.
I'm not sure it's that much more difficult, you mostly have to get an
existing title for a vehicle that is your base, even if little of no
components of the original end up in the final car.
An easier route is to build an off road only 4x4 to trailer to the
trailhead at which point there are next to no requirements to have to
deal with.
>
> I'm scratch-building a plane, to plans, and have built kit cars,
> restored old cars and helped build cars from scratch, as well as
> modifying cars (hot rods).
>
> I've assembled computers from components and built from kits, as well
> as building and re-building radios and stereo equipment, as well as
> all kinds of "gizmos"
>
> I also belong to a woodworking club, where I can build just about
> anything out of wood - Crokinole boards, other board games, furniture,
> or what have you.
>
> I'm in the process (slowly) of building a replica of both the Briggs &
> Stratton Flier and the "Red Bug", and I built, from scratch, a few
> years ago a quad cycle (side-by side 2 person "bike"), as well as a
> tandem made from two old bike frames. Have a recumbent tandem about
> half built too, as well as an electric "pedal hybrid" work-bike
> similar to the XtraCycle with pedal power on the rear and electric on
> the front, partly done and waiting for time/ambition.
You have too many in-progress projects. You need to pare down the list
and focus on completing a few.
Jim Wilkins
> ...
What do you consider to be the price of admission, the minimum
equipment necessary for what you do?
In my case my machines approach antique status, even my plasma cutter,
so I can't reasonably suggest them to a beginner.
If someone who wants to build more than models asks, I'd say a mill-
drill, 9-10" lathe, bandsaw and arc welder. That is approximately what
I have found in small company prototype labs, except that for non-
robotic electronics the lathe isn't necessary and the saw and welder
belong to Maintenance.
Other than here on R.C.M. no one asks. Some friends who are home
builders can't interest their own kids in woodworking.
jsw
pyotr filipivich
<fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> on or about Tue, 19 Jan 2010
11:47:27 -0600 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
>clare,
>
>Okay. If I follow you, your distinctions are based on what is being
>done to/with the available materials:
>
> o Assembling simply combines pre-selected materials according to
> supplied instructions.
>
> o Building requires adapting pre-seleceted materials and/or
> instructions.
>
> o Engineering involves creating new instructions (either from
> scratch or by heavily modifying existing instructions) and/or
> selecting the materials to be used.
>
>Seems like a reasonable breakdown. Thank you.
>
>Any suggestions on how we can inspire kids to enjoy and participate
>in any of these? Or, from the other direction, ways we can
>encourage kids (or adults, for that matter) to keep on doing these
>things once they start?
Make it "fun". I remember seeing a quote by Dr Feinmenn's son,
how dad would take the kids out into the backyard, grab some grass,
add some alcohol, and then stick the blotter paper in the results. The
kids thought "cool". Later, they discovered, they were doing
"Science!"
And I remember a cartoon where the class of middle schoolers have
followed their teachers instructions, and have conducted an experiment
in protein coagulation. AKA "boiling an egg." The one kid is just
moved to tears "I, have, cooked, an egg. All by my self." He'd never
done that before.
And most importantly, 1) let them 'fail', and b) remember, they
really do not know any better. So be constructive in your criticism.
How can this be done better.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
pyotr filipivich
Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:03:35 -0600 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
>cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
><trimmed for your reading pleasure>
>>
>> It is getting downright difficult to get kids involved in building
>> anything, as the raw materials (components) are getting difficult to
>> get, when it comes to electronics in particular. (unless you get right
>> into SMT stuff).
>
>The last time I looked, Digi-Key had through hole components readily
>available. SMT really isn't that difficult either, in the past year I
>did a sizable amount of SMT assembly, and with a good soldering station
>and fine tip, ring light magnifier and good tweezers it goes pretty
>fast. For "breadboarding", there are readily available SMT carrier PCBs
>to convert the SMT chip to a leaded chip.
What is SMT? I've not kept up on electronic kits. ("Why when I
was a boy,we had to stack the electrons on the pins by hand!")
cavelamb
Surface Mount Technology with tiny pin spacing.
As opposed to the old fashioned through-hole stuff on .1" centers.
Joe
The worst part of it is that the little Japanese engines have an
annoying tone to them. At least American V8 iron, while too damn loud
(with "macho" mufflers), sounded serious. The riceburners just sound,
well, embarrasing. But it gets somebody's testosterone going, I guess.
Whenever I hear someone racing an overly loud engine I think "That's
the mating call of the American Redneck!"
Joe
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> What is SMT? I've not kept up on electronic kits. ("Why when I
> was a boy,we had to stack the electrons on the pins by hand!")
> -
> pyotr filipivich
Surface Mount Technology. The component bodies have solder pads plated
on and they attach like ceramic tiles on a wall. The big advantage is
not having to drill large holes that block routing on all layers of
the board.
The board assembly machines are more complicated than the old thru-
hole pick-and-place or the semiautos that illuminate each location and
open a bin of the right part, because unless they are glued the board
can't be handled before soldering.
The disadvantage is in rework. Component removal can be difficult and
may cause unseen damage to nearby parts, so typically bad commercial
boards are scrapped. Industrial and military quality boards hold up
better to localized heat and are sometimes repaired. I've even had to
chisel out and refill a burned area and attach the new device to the
surviving traces with fine wires.
They are a nuisance to prototype with unless you can design your own
boards. I've always standardized on wirewrap sockets on perfboard,
even for passive components. If the perfboard has solder pads I tack
two diagonal corner pins, which is enough to hold and easy to remove.
The Sphinx is on Nova. bye
jsw
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>
>cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
><trimmed for your reading pleasure>
>>
>> It is getting downright difficult to get kids involved in building
>> anything, as the raw materials (components) are getting difficult to
>> get, when it comes to electronics in particular. (unless you get right
>> into SMT stuff).
>
>The last time I looked, Digi-Key had through hole components readily
>available. SMT really isn't that difficult either, in the past year I
>did a sizable amount of SMT assembly, and with a good soldering station
>and fine tip, ring light magnifier and good tweezers it goes pretty
>fast. For "breadboarding", there are readily available SMT carrier PCBs
>to convert the SMT chip to a leaded chip.
Yes, you can order the stuff from DigiKey - but if every time you need
a part you need to order it in, it gets time consuming and expensive.
Getting started, the average guy damages a few parts (lets the smoke
out) learning - and you NEVER know ahead of time what is going to be
needed.
Radio shack and other local sources of days gone buy - including local
industrial wholesalers, don't carry anything any more.
Kinda like when I was growing up in small-town Ontario - my parts
supply was old radios etc scavenged from the local dump. After a
couple years I got a main-order account from "ETCO Electronics" in
Montreal. Bought a lot of stuff from Marvin Burnbaum and company.
Then I got my driver's licence and my Mini - and I could get parts
from Kitchener and Waterloo - and even get down to the surplus stores
that used to line Queen Street in Hogtown.
Picked up most of the parts I used to build my electric car (converted
Fiat 128 Coupe) from City Surplus just north of what was then the
Malton Airport (Now Toronto International - or Pearson - CYYZ)
>
>> Even assembling, other than a computer (where you buy
>> a motherboard, video card, case and power supply, and accessories) is
>> difficult because there are not many "kits" available any more.
>
>There are still a lot of electronics kits available, even retail. Fry's
>and Frys.com carry the whole Vellman line along with some other brands
>of electronics kits.
Again, up here you need to order that stuff - No Fry's up here. (Well,
LOTS of Frys up here around Waterloo - but mostly farmers)
>
>>
>> One place where both assembly and building is still fairly common is
>> in experimental aviation - where you can buy a quick-build kit and
>> bolt/rivet it together, buy a normal kit where you drill holes, do
>> some bending and fitting, and bolt, weld, and rivet things together,
>> or buy plans and cut all the tubes, sheats, etc to proper shape and
>> sise, and assemble according to the plans.
>>
>> For the adventuresome, you can design and build youir own plane, and
>> fly it.
>
>The three problems with this are:
>
>- Lot of $$$ required
>- Large shop required for early stages of the build
>- Hanger space at airport required for final build and subsequent
>operation
>
Yup. Trying to get away with as little $$$$$ as possible, and it's
spread between my garage, my partner's garage, and his basement at the
moment.
>>
>> Used to be you could build your own car, starting with a chassis from
>> something else, or building your own tube chassis or monocoque tub,
>> building or assembling your own suspension, and building your own
>> body, either from existing components, or from scratch - then
>> installing the engine of your choice, customized with either purchased
>> or hand-made parts, and adapted to the transmission of your choice
>> with either a purchased or hand-made adapter - and then upholstered,
>> again with either purchased, adapted, or hand made seats and trim.
>>
>> That is getting a lot more difficult today if you intend to drive it
>> on the road - but for an autocross or track car it is still possible.
>
>I'm not sure it's that much more difficult, you mostly have to get an
>existing title for a vehicle that is your base, even if little of no
>components of the original end up in the final car.
>
That works in some states, perhaps, but up here getting it titled and
inspected, and worse yet, INSURED is getting tricky.
>An easier route is to build an off road only 4x4 to trailer to the
>trailhead at which point there are next to no requirements to have to
>deal with.
>
>>
>> I'm scratch-building a plane, to plans, and have built kit cars,
>> restored old cars and helped build cars from scratch, as well as
>> modifying cars (hot rods).
>>
>> I've assembled computers from components and built from kits, as well
>> as building and re-building radios and stereo equipment, as well as
>> all kinds of "gizmos"
>>
>> I also belong to a woodworking club, where I can build just about
>> anything out of wood - Crokinole boards, other board games, furniture,
>> or what have you.
>>
>> I'm in the process (slowly) of building a replica of both the Briggs &
>> Stratton Flier and the "Red Bug", and I built, from scratch, a few
>> years ago a quad cycle (side-by side 2 person "bike"), as well as a
>> tandem made from two old bike frames. Have a recumbent tandem about
>> half built too, as well as an electric "pedal hybrid" work-bike
>> similar to the XtraCycle with pedal power on the rear and electric on
>> the front, partly done and waiting for time/ambition.
>
>You have too many in-progress projects. You need to pare down the list
>and focus on completing a few.
That's what the wife says too. But when we come up against it on one
project - waiting for parts or money, there is always something else
to do.
Frnak McKenney
>> Any suggestions on how we can inspire kids to enjoy and participate
>> in any of these? Or, from the other direction, ways we can
>> encourage kids (or adults, for that matter) to keep on doing these
>> things once they start?
>
> My sister sent me a message the other day asking for some
> assistance in choosing a kit for her 9 year old son. He is
> interested in electronics and mechanical items and she really
> encourages her children to explore things that interest them. Here
> is the link she sent. http://www.discoverthis.com/electricity.html
> She is leaning towards the 75 in 1 kit on top and the Dangerous Book
> for Boys on the bottom left. Seth has torn apart most of the broken
> electronics they had laying around and is ready to actually learn
> how this stuff works.
> Steve
Steve,
That looks like a good start.
If your nephew works his way through that and wants more, you might
consider sending him a copy of the ARRL Handbook. You don't need
the most current edition -- any post-1970 will cover the basics of
resistors, capacitors, inductors, tuning, tubes, semiconductors, and
construction techniques.
Most nine-year-olds are old enough to learn how to solder (under
close supervision); my nieces Chiara and Sophie built a small
sound-triggered robot kit when they were eight and ten, as I recall
(Sophie soldered, Chiara read the instructions and checked the
results). Yes, there will be some minor burns to fingers and
furniture, but probably fewer and lighter than the kid would pick up
learning Domestic Chemistry (a.k.a. cooking, another vital skill).
Once he knows how to solder there are a wide variety of electronic
kits he can build... er, "assemble"(<grin!>).
Some kits offer details on the theory involved, some don't, but even
with the latter your nephew will be learning to recognize components
and to match them against schematics. Schematics are written using
an obscure graphically-based language used to describe and discuss
electronic circuitry, and whose mastery is difficult yet critical to
anyone working in the field.
Here are some of the places I'm aware of that sell kits:
Ramsey Electronics (huge variety, also has a paper catalog)
http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/
KitsUSA
http://www.kitsusa.net/
Hobby Engineering
http://www.hobbyengineering.com/
Jameco Electronics
http://www.jameco.com/
but you can find many more by searching with keywords like
"electronic hobby kits".
As you'll quickly see, some kits are simpler than others, some are
"bare bones" while others include cases, and the end result varies a
lot. A beginner might enjoy a blinking LED christmas tree, but it
takes someone who is doing electronic work on a regular basis to
understand what a "function generator" is and why he might want to
build one.
Robots are fun -- they "do stuff" -- and many simple robot kits are
available in the $10-20 range; the more flexible ones start closer
to $50 and go up rapidly (I think Parallax's gas-powered chassis is
around $5k).
Oh, and you'll often find the same kit available online for
different prices. As always, Caveat Emptor. <grin!>
Here's one particular kit that I found for my brother when he was
learning electronics: Elenco's AM-550TK, a transistor-based AM
radio kit. There is also an IC version (AM-550 with no suffix), but
I'd recommend the transistor version for someone learning
electronics since it's more open for observation and measurement.
The instruction manual is available online, and I highly recommend
it as an example of what good kit instructions should be like.
Elenco Electronics
http://www.elenco.com/
[Manuals] -> AM-550TK
Enjoy...
Frank
--
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of
its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live
under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may
at some point be satiated: but those who torment us for our own
good will torment us without end, for they do so with the
approval of their own conscience. -- C. S. Lewis
Frnak McKenney
> On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:47:27 -0600, Frnak McKenney
><fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:01:30 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>>> On 18 Jan 2010 21:43:20 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2010-01-18, Frnak McKenney <fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:31:39 -0800 (PST), sparky <spar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Jan 17, 6:48�pm, "anorton" <anor...@removethis.ix.netcom.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Pinstripe Sniper" <veryso...@nocando.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:4b5897b0....@news.flex.com...
>>>>
>>>> [ ... ]
>>>
>>> There is assembling, building, and engineering.
>>>
>>> Assembling requires little or no tools - no cutting or modification of
>>> parts as supplied. Just put part A in slot B etc.
>>>
>>> Building requires tools, and cutting or modification of parts as
>>> supplied. May also involve welding and/or machining the materials to
>>> apply them to the (existing) design.
>>>
>>> Engineering involves the design and planning of an item and
>>> cutting/modifying / welding / machining etc of raw or otherwise
>>> supplied materials to apply them to the (original) design.
>>Seems like a reasonable breakdown. Thank you.
>>
>>Any suggestions on how we can inspire kids to enjoy and participate
>>in any of these? Or, from the other direction, ways we can
>>encourage kids (or adults, for that matter) to keep on doing these
>>things once they start?
>>
>>Frank
>
> anything, as the raw materials (components) are getting difficult to
> get, when it comes to electronics in particular. (unless you get right
> into SMT stuff). Even assembling, other than a computer (where you buy
> a motherboard, video card, case and power supply, and accessories) is
> difficult because there are not many "kits" available any more.
I think I'd beg to differ with that statement. I do miss the old
Heathkits, but take a look at the sheer breadth of the kits
available from Ramsey:
Ramsey Electronics
http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/
Take a peek at their Nixie Tube Clock. <grin!>
And there's the Maker SHED store, on offshoot of the quarterly Make
magazine (highly recommended):
Maker SHED
http://www.makershed.com/
Even a $45US kit to build a Digital Storage Oscilloscope (useful at
1MHz, 5Ms/s, but not a 200MHz scope).
> One place where both assembly and building is still fairly common is
> in experimental aviation - where you can buy a quick-build kit and
> bolt/rivet it together, buy a normal kit where you drill holes, do
> some bending and fitting, and bolt, weld, and rivet things together,
> or buy plans and cut all the tubes, sheats, etc to proper shape and
> sise, and assemble according to the plans.
>
> For the adventuresome, you can design and build youir own plane, and
> fly it.
Riii-iiight! Didn't Groucho Marx say "I wouldn't fly in any
airplane that would have me as a designer!" or words to that
effect? <grin!>
> Used to be you could build your own car, starting with a chassis from
> something else, or building your own tube chassis or monocoque tub,
> building or assembling your own suspension, and building your own
> body, either from existing components, or from scratch - then
> installing the engine of your choice, customized with either purchased
> or hand-made parts, and adapted to the transmission of your choice
> with either a purchased or hand-made adapter - and then upholstered,
> again with either purchased, adapted, or hand made seats and trim.
>
> That is getting a lot more difficult today if you intend to drive it
> on the road - but for an autocross or track car it is still possible.
Hey... I've got this 16-year-old nephew in the Tarrytown, NY area
who talks about wanting to build a hot-rod. Richmond is a little
far south for me to help him; how close are you? <grin!>
Seriously, would you have any suggestions for how a 16YO -- neither
of whose parents, smart though they are, has much experience with
mechanical engineering -- would pick up skills like welding? Or find
people nearby who were interested in the kinds of projects you
describe?
> I'm scratch-building a plane, to plans, and have built kit cars,
> restored old cars and helped build cars from scratch, as well as
> modifying cars (hot rods).
>
> I've assembled computers from components and built from kits, as well
> as building and re-building radios and stereo equipment, as well as
> all kinds of "gizmos"
>
> I also belong to a woodworking club, where I can build just about
> anything out of wood - Crokinole boards, other board games, furniture,
> or what have you.
>
> I'm in the process (slowly) of building a replica of both the Briggs &
> Stratton Flier and the "Red Bug", and I built, from scratch, a few
> years ago a quad cycle (side-by side 2 person "bike"), as well as a
> tandem made from two old bike frames. Have a recumbent tandem about
> half built too, as well as an electric "pedal hybrid" work-bike
> similar to the XtraCycle with pedal power on the rear and electric on
> the front, partly done and waiting for time/ambition.
Well, you can color me impressed, but I'd better stop reading. The
envy is seeping out and dripping all over my keyboard. <grin!>
Thanks...
Frank
--
I find the great thing in this world is not so much where we
stand, as in what direction we are moving: To reach the port of
heaven, we must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against
it, -- but we must sail, and not drift, nor lie at anchor.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Frnak McKenney
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:19:06 -0800 (PST), "pdr...@coinet.com"
><co_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Jan 17, 6:31�pm, sparky <sparky...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> > - Show quoted text -
>>>
>>> Assembling is not building !
>>
>>I have to disagree. I would challenge you to identify anything that is
>>not made up of parts that are assembled. Even cutting up steel and
>>welding the pieces together to build a device is assembling the pieces
>>you cut up. I guess if you made something of concrete, that is not
>>assembled, but if you used concrete block to make the same thing, that
>>is assembly.
>>As far as electronics, We have an engineer customer who designs builds
>>light controls for rock shows,(Rolling Stones,etc.). His thing is ease
>>of repair when things die. Always designs with leaded components that
>>can be repaired out in the field, probably at night. Well, John was in
>>the office this morning when I got in. He was sad because he was
>>having us place some components on a prototype board for him. The only
>>devices he could get to do the job had to be soldered to large copper
>>pads to act as heat sinks. Can only be done in an oven and can't be
>>repaired in the field. He said if the board dies, they will have to
>>toss it and put in a new board.
>>
>>Paul, KD7HB
> Yeah, that sucks. SMT has had a generally positive impact on
> technology, but has also limited the ability of people to do
> component-level repairs. There's a lot of waste in throwing away a
> fully populated board that contains only one bad component. In the
> industrial environment I work in, we often throw entire VFD motor
> drives (big 'uns - 30 HP on up) away, 'cause there's no way to
> troubleshoot it, the manufacturer won't support the old stuff and
> won't release the schematics and other info.
>
> Joe
On the other hand, the parts on such boards can be reused. It _is_
possible to salvage (some) SMT parts for your own projects if you're
willing to trade time and effort for money. If you're interested,
you can find comments pro and con from a number of 'web sites, and
you'd be surprised at what can be accomplished with a hair-dryer and
a bucket (I'll also recommend heavy gloves).
I've extracted parts with a heat gun myself, although so far only to
collect stuff to practice soldering with. I remember what it was
like extracting 1/2W resistors and ceramic discs from open-chassis
radios and TV sets, and later from PC boards; I suspect that the
recovered-to-damaged ratio is about the same. (A one-lead 1/2W
resistor isn't all that useful. <grin!>)
Frank
--
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.
It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom this
emotion is a stranger, who no longer pauses to wonder and
stand in rapt awe, is as good as dead."
-- Albert Einstein
Pete C.
Frnak McKenney wrote:
>
<snipped>
> I've extracted parts with a heat gun myself, although so far only to
> collect stuff to practice soldering with. I remember what it was
> like extracting 1/2W resistors and ceramic discs from open-chassis
> radios and TV sets, and later from PC boards; I suspect that the
> recovered-to-damaged ratio is about the same. (A one-lead 1/2W
> resistor isn't all that useful. <grin!>)
But of course it's useful, that remaining lead is a source of nice
tinned jumper wire.
Joe
I've salvaged lots of stuff from the drives, but not SMT chips; just
too much trouble to adapt them for my purposes. I used to glom onto
the heat sinks, but now I've got so many that I've had to throw away
(Gasp!) some of my stash just to make room for other things. Muffin
fans get saved or passed on to others, toroids & ferrite cores always
come in handy. Even the passive components are usually SMT now; I've
got a good supply of old carbon comp and carbon film for my future
needs. Tons of mylar caps, too. I always keep AC caps, though.
Nowadays most of the electronics I putz with is audio-related; even
got a few tube amps from the early 60s I plan to rework. (Maybe a
direct-drive ES headphone amp?)
Workwise, I do metrology now.
Joe
Jim Wilkins
<fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
> ...
> On the other hand, the parts on such boards can be reused. It _is_
> possible to salvage (some) SMT parts for your own projects if you're
> willing to trade time and effort for money. If you're interested,
> you can find comments pro and con from a number of 'web sites, and
> you'd be surprised at what can be accomplished with a hair-dryer and
> a bucket (I'll also recommend heavy gloves).
> Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Hot tweezers like this work well on two-leaded devices:
http://www.hakko.com/english/products/imgs/detail/hakko_950.jpg
There are better brands but with surplus equipment you take whatever
you find.
Or you can use two irons, or with practice one iron moved quickly from
side to side. It works for me, at least. Resistors stand this abuse
better than capacitors.
Multi-leaded ICs are easier with hot air, either a rework station or a
small heat gun:
http://i20.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/d1/46/90b5_2.JPG
I almost always need to repair the board and have spare parts. Usually
I clip off the leads of large dead ICs flush with the body and then
unsolder them with fluxed copper braid, to reduce the high risk of
lifting a pad. 91% isopropyl alcohol followed by a toothbrush
scrubbing with soap and water removes most of the flux if you don't
have something better. Dissolved flux residue will gum up pots and
switches.
jsw
Michael A. Terrell
While the tiny, tinny engines are the mating call of idiots, and
lonely chainsaws.
Michael A. Terrell
My last job was building high end telemetry equipment at Microdyne,
but I spent some time in our Metrology lab as well. The old man that ran
the lab wasn't familiar with some of the newest types of ICs, and I
worked with them all day long so I would help him out when he ran into
trouble.
Have you ever seen the Microdyne TS-2000? It was a custom test set
for calibrating Telemetry receivers.
pyotr filipivich
Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:17:04 -0800 (PST) did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Thanks. Now I at least have words to attach to the TLA.
If I can't assemble it with wire nuts and tape, it's too small for
me B-)
pyotr filipivich
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
dad does it, so it is not cool.
Of course, the other side is to start when the kids are too young
to "know better". I cam home from the first day of shop class, and
told my Dad "They got Straight Nails!"
tschus
pyotr
cl...@snyder.on.ca
<fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
2 to 2 and a half hours from Buffalo, north across the border
Edward A. Falk
with high school kids now.
--
-Ed Falk, fa...@despams.r.us.com
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
Terry
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> dad does it, so it is not cool.
It depends on the kids and on how dad approaches it but as a rule of
thumb you're unfortunately quite correct.
> Of course, the other side is to start when the kids are too young
>to "know better". I cam home from the first day of shop class, and
>told my Dad "They got Straight Nails!"
I am *SO* glad that I wasn't drinking my Fresca when I read that! :-)
Just remembered: none of the projects in our wood shop (grades 7-9)
used nails, because the shop teachers considered nails to be
inappropriate for fine woodworking. Just as well. The hammer is
really good at finding the finger/thumb of my other hand...
Terry
Up North
Frank
Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I am going to save your message
and also forward it to my sister. My youngest son was welding when he was 10
and as long as a kid has good supervision I see no harm in letting them try.
Steve
Pinstripe Sniper
>Hey... I've got this 16-year-old nephew in the Tarrytown, NY area
>who talks about wanting to build a hot-rod. Richmond is a little
>far south for me to help him; how close are you? <grin!>
>
>Seriously, would you have any suggestions for how a 16YO -- neither
>of whose parents, smart though they are, has much experience with
>mechanical engineering -- would pick up skills like welding? Or find
>people nearby who were interested in the kinds of projects you
>describe?
Perhaps a community college? They could be very flexible with a 16
year old. Perhaps the teen could meet with the instructor first and
get a waiver.
Maybe a VOTEC high school has a welding club and would permit a high
schooler from another school to participate? Claim the teen is home
schooled and needs an onsite enrichment. :-)
Homebuilt aircraft club?
Ask at a local welding supply store? Some of them offer discounts to
student welders.
And, while I am suspicious of the structural integrity of "artistic
welding" perhaps there is an artists/sculpture group in the area.
This is a college level thing but I was talking to some of the
participants and they said they knew squat about welding before
joining the contest but they had a blast learning how to build the
bridge and now they love it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_bridge_competition
PsS
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A fictional account of how to drastically reform the financial world...
More at http://PinstripeSniper.blogspot.com and if that gets banned, check
www.PinstripeSniper.com
Pinstripe Sniper
about electronics instead of metalworking or even woodwork. It makes
sense to me. Doesn't this parallel the decline in US manufacturing?
I get the impression the "amount of pay for skill set" favors
electronics techs and programmers rather than master machinists,
welders, tool/die. Even mechanics have to be electronics savvy.
Shoot, even fork truck drivers need to work a dispatching computer
touch screen.
I wonder how the plumbers are doing? Heck, Moen recently introduced
their IODigital showers with digital displays and even remote controls
like tvs. http://www.moen.com/iodigital
Frnak McKenney
Pete,
I can tell this is going to be One Of Those Mornings. I read your
reply three times trying to figure out how Lead (Pb) came into the
discussion before I finally realised you were referring to my
"recycled component" leftovers. <Sigh!>
But you're right. Trouble is, there don't seem to be as many devices
these days with point-to-point component wiring, so I have to make
do with the leftover leads I clip from the through-hole parts after
soldering them. But they _are_ handy. <grin!>
Frank
--
Give a man a fish and he will eat it for dinner.
Teach a man to fish and he will be late for dinner.
Joe
Although telemetry would be a good fit for a few of our applications,
we don't use it at all here. The bulk of my work is with temperature;
most of the remainder is pressure, vacuum (I like vacuum), flow,
level, etc. Everything is carried over some industrial variation of
Ethernet.
Joe
Frnak McKenney
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 10:25:38 -0600, Frnak McKenney
><fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:20:00 -0500, Joe <jgan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Yeah, that sucks. SMT has had a generally positive impact on
>>> technology, but has also limited the ability of people to do
>>> component-level repairs. There's a lot of waste in throwing away a
>>> fully populated board that contains only one bad component. In the
>>> industrial environment I work in, we often throw entire VFD motor
>>> drives (big 'uns - 30 HP on up) away, 'cause there's no way to
>>> troubleshoot it, the manufacturer won't support the old stuff and
>>> won't release the schematics and other info.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>
>>On the other hand, the parts on such boards can be reused. It _is_
>>possible to salvage (some) SMT parts for your own projects if you're
>>willing to trade time and effort for money. If you're interested,
>>you can find comments pro and con from a number of 'web sites, and
>>you'd be surprised at what can be accomplished with a hair-dryer and
>>a bucket (I'll also recommend heavy gloves).
>>
>>Frank
>
> I've salvaged lots of stuff from the drives, but not SMT chips; just
> too much trouble to adapt them for my purposes. I used to glom onto
> the heat sinks, but now I've got so many that I've had to throw away
> (Gasp!) some of my stash just to make room for other things. Muffin
> fans get saved or passed on to others, toroids & ferrite cores always
> come in handy. Even the passive components are usually SMT now; I've
> got a good supply of old carbon comp and carbon film for my future
> needs. Tons of mylar caps, too. I always keep AC caps, though.
It's not as hard as you might think. I decided to back up my blithe
assertion that there was "lots" of "easily found" material on the
'web, so I used Google this mornig with the following string:
(unsolder OR remove OR salvage OR recycle) (parts OR components)
(smt OR smd OR "surface mount")
(That's one line of search terms)
Wow!
I found discussions of salvaging parts, such as this one:
How to Salvage Electronic Parts
http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=213
Instructions on how to build your own hot-air pencil/iron (who'd
have thought of using a $10 Radio Shack desoldering iron _that_
way? <grin!>):
How-To: Make a surface mount soldering iron
http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/07/
how-to-make-a-surface-mount-soldering-iron/
Home Made Air Pencil Soldering Iron
http://www.gideontech.com/content/articles/297/1
(Two descriptions of the same approach, both worth reading)
Home made SMT Desoldering Station
http://alfred73electronics.blogspot.com/2007/03/
home-made-smt-desoldering-station.html
Home Made Air Pencil Soldering Iron (includes some tips on
desoldering)
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Hot-Air-Soldering-Iron_1/
and finally, the stuff I _started_ looking for:
Heat Gun Homebrew SMT Rework Tutorial
http://www.openschemes.com/modules/wordpress/2009/10/16/
heat-gun-homebrew-smt-rework-tutorial/
Playing with Cheap Heat Guns
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=228
There was a lot more, but I stopped after spending an hour
exploring.
(Has anyone ever done a study comparing the time lost wandering
around the 'web reading up on topics only peripherally related to
one's original purpose versus the time spent tweaking fonts and
formatting for documents and presentations? <grin!>)
Oh, and I discovered Colin O'Flynn's "Low Cost SMD Soldering Guide"
PDF at the AVR Freaks site:
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?module=FreaksArticles&
func=downloadArticle&id=15
Now, where did I leave that aquarium pump... <grin!>
> Nowadays most of the electronics I putz with is audio-related; even
> got a few tube amps from the early 60s I plan to rework. (Maybe a
> direct-drive ES headphone amp?)
Going to stick with tubes? Or convert to solid state?
> Workwise, I do metrology now.
I assumed that that _wasn't_ a misprint and looked it up. "Science
of measurement"... okay. I'm curious: what kinds of measuring do
you do?
Frank
--
Remember that anecdote is not the singular of data.
Frnak McKenney
> On Jan 20, 11:25�am, Frnak McKenney
><fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>> ...
>> On the other hand, the parts on such boards can be reused. �It _is_
>> possible to salvage (some) SMT parts for your own projects if you're
>> willing to trade time and effort for money. �If you're interested,
>> you can find comments pro and con from a number of 'web sites, and
>> you'd be surprised at what can be accomplished with a hair-dryer and
>> a bucket (I'll also recommend heavy gloves).
> ...
>> Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
>
> Hot tweezers like this work well on two-leaded devices:
> http://www.hakko.com/english/products/imgs/detail/hakko_950.jpg
> There are better brands but with surplus equipment you take whatever
> you find.
I've seen these listed in catalogs, usually as an option on a
soldering/desoldering station, but I've never tried one myself.
> Or you can use two irons, or with practice one iron moved quickly from
> side to side. It works for me, at least. Resistors stand this abuse
> better than capacitors.
With my eyesight and dexterity a fast-moving iron is a health and
environmental hazard. <grin!>
> Multi-leaded ICs are easier with hot air, either a rework station or a
> small heat gun:
> http://i20.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/d1/46/90b5_2.JPG
The hot air stations seem to run $80-250, but since I've never used
one it's hard to figure out what options are important and which
aren't.
For example, here are a few from a magazine ad:
$80 Sirocco SMD Rework Unit
http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/9445
$100 (sale BlackJack SolderWerks Hot Air System w Suction Pen &
Mechanical Arm
http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/9751
(the vaccuum IC handler looks useful)
$100 (sale) CPU Controlled, SMD Hot Air Rework Station
http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/7343
$100 (sale) BlackJack SolderWerks Hot Air System w Soldering Iron
& Mechanical Arm
http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/9752
$240 (sale) CPU Controlled, SMD Hot Air Rework Station DELUXE
http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/8227
I have a plethora of options (possibly two plethoras <grin!>); it's
just hard to sort through them to find a low-ish priced unit
suitable for learning and occasional use.
I'm tempted to try building one of the homebrew units I listed in a
previous post.
> I almost always need to repair the board and have spare parts. Usually
> I clip off the leads of large dead ICs flush with the body and then
> unsolder them with fluxed copper braid, to reduce the high risk of
> lifting a pad. 91% isopropyl alcohol followed by a toothbrush
> scrubbing with soap and water removes most of the flux if you don't
> have something better. Dissolved flux residue will gum up pots and
> switches.
Thanks for the tip.
Frank
--
Everything has to start with fantasy... Knowledge is what
you finish up with, if you're lucky, after you've done the
hard work -- but the hard work needs passion to drive it.
People need reasons to be interested, reasons to be committed,
reasons to do their damndest to find the truth.
-- Brian Stableford / Dark Ararat
Frnak McKenney
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 10:08:47 -0600, Frnak McKenney
><fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:52:50 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>>> Used to be you could build your own car, starting with a chassis from
>>> something else, or building your own tube chassis or monocoque tub,
>>> building or assembling your own suspension, and building your own
>>> body, either from existing components, or from scratch - then
>>> installing the engine of your choice, customized with either purchased
>>> or hand-made parts, and adapted to the transmission of your choice
>>> with either a purchased or hand-made adapter - and then upholstered,
>>> again with either purchased, adapted, or hand made seats and trim.
>>>
>>> That is getting a lot more difficult today if you intend to drive it
>>> on the road - but for an autocross or track car it is still possible.
>>
>>Hey... I've got this 16-year-old nephew in the Tarrytown, NY area
>>who talks about wanting to build a hot-rod. Richmond is a little
>>far south for me to help him; how close are you? <grin!>
>
> 2 to 2 and a half hours from Buffalo, north across the border
Ah. Probably a bit far for Joseph to walk over to after school.
Too bad. You sound like someone he'd enjoy spending time with.
Hope you can find someone in the local area to pass your skills
and sense of enjoyment on to.
Frank
--
"Humor is indispensable to democracy. It is the ingredient lacking
in all the dictatorships in what seems to be an increasingly
authoritarian world. It is the element that permits us to laugh
at ourselves and with each other, whether we be political friends
or foes." -- Edward Bennet Williams, "Humor and the Presidency"
Frnak McKenney
Thank you for taking the time to post all those ideas. I'll pass
them along to Joseph and see if he and I can find something in
the Tarrytown area.
Frank
--
"We are stuck with 'technology' when what we really want is just
stuff that works. How do you recognize something that is still
'technology'? A good clue is if it comes with a manual."
-- Douglas Adams / The Salmon of Doubt
cl...@snyder.on.ca
<fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 17:43:32 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 10:08:47 -0600, Frnak McKenney
>><fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:52:50 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>-----snip-----
>>>> Used to be you could build your own car, starting with a chassis from
>>>> something else, or building your own tube chassis or monocoque tub,
>>>> building or assembling your own suspension, and building your own
>>>> body, either from existing components, or from scratch - then
>>>> installing the engine of your choice, customized with either purchased
>>>> or hand-made parts, and adapted to the transmission of your choice
>>>> with either a purchased or hand-made adapter - and then upholstered,
>>>> again with either purchased, adapted, or hand made seats and trim.
>>>>
>>>> That is getting a lot more difficult today if you intend to drive it
>>>> on the road - but for an autocross or track car it is still possible.
>>>
>>>Hey... I've got this 16-year-old nephew in the Tarrytown, NY area
>>>who talks about wanting to build a hot-rod. Richmond is a little
>>>far south for me to help him; how close are you? <grin!>
>>
>> 2 to 2 and a half hours from Buffalo, north across the border
>
>Ah. Probably a bit far for Joseph to walk over to after school.
>
>Too bad. You sound like someone he'd enjoy spending time with.
>Hope you can find someone in the local area to pass your skills
>and sense of enjoyment on to.
>
>
Perhaps a couple sons-in-law as I have 2 daughters.
The youngest scares a lot of the guys - she drives ONLY standard shift
and changes her own snow tires. - - - -
Ed Huntress
<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:nbkhl5h0ejea9hulh...@4ax.com...
Wow. Does she mount them on the rims with her bare hands? <g>
--
Ed Huntress
steamer
>Thanks, Steamer! I have never heard of such a thing. Could only start
>in California, I guess. Looks like a fun way to spend a day or two.
--They've gone global too; there are several around the USA, plus
events in the UK and elsewhere. www.makezine.com for more info.
--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : To help the helpless
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : To comfor the fearful...
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
Joe
Oh sweet Jesus, now you've given me yet more reasons to scrounge
stuff! My wife will have some choice words for you, sir.
I remember pulling multi-lead ICs (mostly the staggered 40 pin
Rockwell things) using a solder pot with an appropriately sized
opening; lay the board onto the molten solder, pluck out the chip, and
whack the board smartly on the work bench to clear the holes.
Piece-o-cake. Much more difficult with an iron and solder-sucker.
>Now, where did I leave that aquarium pump... <grin!>
>
>> Nowadays most of the electronics I putz with is audio-related; even
>> got a few tube amps from the early 60s I plan to rework. (Maybe a
>> direct-drive ES headphone amp?)
>
>Going to stick with tubes? Or convert to solid state?
Solid State? My God, man - why would I want to take a giant step
backwards in "cool" factor? (Never mind the issue of efficiency.)
Glass is fun. Besides, tubes handle the high polarizing voltages much
better than semiconductors.
>
>> Workwise, I do metrology now.
>
>I assumed that that _wasn't_ a misprint and looked it up. "Science
>of measurement"... okay. I'm curious: what kinds of measuring do
>you do?
>
Quoting a subsequent post:
The bulk of my work is with temperature; most of the remainder is
pressure, vacuum (I like vacuum), flow, level, etc.
There is some stuff that uses gage "blocks" (very expensive feeler
gages, characterized to millionths of an inch). Hardness measured by
accelerometer-fitted hammers, optical haze, slip/peel, surface
resistivity, and other QC related stuff, but it's a relatively small
part of the work load. The more esoteric equipment is
calibrated/maintained by the manufacturer (bummer).
Joe
Bill McKee
"Joe" <jgan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:08qhl5hg4ta1r3irn...@4ax.com...
For removing surface mount or high density flat packs this is the best
stuff.
http://www.chipquikinc.com/
Jim Wilkins
<fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 10:33:10 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 20, 11:25 am, Frnak McKenney
>
> > side to side. It works for me, at least. Resistors stand this abuse
> > better than capacitors.
>
> With my eyesight and dexterity a fast-moving iron is a health and
> environmental hazard. <grin!>
Oh, you are an engineer.
> For example, here are a few from a magazine ad:
>
> $80 Sirocco SMD Rework Unit
> http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/9445
>
> $100 (sale BlackJack SolderWerks Hot Air System w Suction Pen &
> Mechanical Arm
> http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/9751
> (the vaccuum IC handler looks useful)
>
> $100 (sale) CPU Controlled, SMD Hot Air Rework Station
> http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/7343
>
> $100 (sale) BlackJack SolderWerks Hot Air System w Soldering Iron
> & Mechanical Arm
> http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/9752
>
> $240 (sale) CPU Controlled, SMD Hot Air Rework Station DELUXE
> http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/8227
>
> I have a plethora of options (possibly two plethoras <grin!>); it's
> just hard to sort through them to find a low-ish priced unit
> suitable for learning and occasional use.
>
> I'm tempted to try building one of the homebrew units I listed in a
> previous post.
> Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
In the early 90's I checked out several larger units for my lab at
MITRE. We needed a heater underneath for multilayer boards with inner
power planes and thought we needed a wide selection of nozzles for
large parts like these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TQFP
usually with 0.5mm lead pitch.
After many demos and a field trip I found out that
* I could use the machines better than the salesmen, meaning that
their recommendations and performance claims meant little. OTOH I'm
not a good salesman.
* If the board wasn't designed with some clearance around large parts,
removing them often wrecked the board. I used dead Mac hard disk
controller cards, not meant to be repaired and thus more of a test.
* Hot tweezers were better for 2-lead components. Some of the parts
are little bigger than salt grains and they blow away.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soldering_a_0402.jpg
* Manual dexterity and vision are more important than details of the
desoldering tool, except that a stiff clumsy cable can make hand-held
use almost impossible. Those have a stand and more heat and air,
though.
That leaves SOT-23 transistors which a single nozzle can remove.
Nozzles for SOICs would probably be useful too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-outline_integrated_circuit
I've only had to remove large ICs because they had died, and then
cutting the leads with fine-pointed flush cutters worked better.
A vacuum pickup is nice if it seals well but needle probes are enough
to flip the part away. I like the manual eyedropper type better than
the vacuum hose ones for the lighter feel. YMMV
If you can't remove a resistor with two irons you might find those
tools hard to use as well. No hot air rework tool I've seen was really
easy to operate. You can't tell when the last pin has melted and can
easily overheat the board or lift a pad.
jsw
cl...@snyder.on.ca
No, she learned from her Pa to buy spare rims and keep the tires
permanently mounted so she only needs to swap rims.
But she jacks the car, swaps the rims, torques the nuts, and winches
the tires up into the loft of the shed for offseason storage with a
hand cranked boat winch.
Most of the guys don't know how to handle a clutch, and don't know one
end of a torque-wrench from the other.
And she's good lookin' too. And smart. And she's got a good job and
owns her own home. Not bad for 26
Michael A. Terrell
Yeah? But does she drive a wrecker? :)
Michael A. Terrell
Our RCB-2000 and DR-2000 recievers had a Ethernet port. The older
products used RS-232, RS-485 and IEEE-488
Michael A. Terrell
Bill McKee wrote:
>
> For removing surface mount or high density flat packs this is the best
> stuff.
> http://www.chipquikinc.com/
Not for production work. A good hot air rework station did the job
faster and better.
I removed a lot of SMD ICs with solder wick. Clean most of the solder
off the pins, and use a very small tipped dental pick to see which leads
were loose. Then touch the ones that were, with a hot soldering iron and
lift them before the solder cools. I could pull a 288 pin IC in about a
minute, clean up the pads in about 30 seconds, and solder a new chip in
by hand in, in about 90 seconds without any solder bridges. It took
longer to clean the board than to change a chip.
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
> ...
> I removed a lot of SMD ICs with solder wick. Clean most of the solder
> off the pins, and use a very small tipped dental pick to see which leads
> were loose. Then touch the ones that were, with a hot soldering iron and
> lift them before the solder cools. I could pull a 288 pin IC in about a
> minute, clean up the pads in about 30 seconds, and solder a new chip in
> by hand in, in about 90 seconds without any solder bridges. It took
> longer to clean the board than to change a chip.
Have you tried to teach that technique to others?
jsw
Frnak McKenney
> On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:18:04 -0600, Frnak McKenney
><fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:29:58 -0500, Joe <jgan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've salvaged lots of stuff from the drives, but not SMT chips; just
>>> too much trouble to adapt them for my purposes.
>>It's not as hard as you might think. I decided to back up my blithe
>>assertion that there was "lots" of "easily found" material on the
>>'web, so I used Google this mornig with the following string:
>>
>> (unsolder OR remove OR salvage OR recycle) (parts OR components)
>> (smt OR smd OR "surface mount")
>>
>>(That's one line of search terms)
>>
>>Wow!
>>
>>I found discussions of salvaging parts, such as this one:
>>
>> How to Salvage Electronic Parts
>> http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=213
------remaining examples snipped-----
> Oh sweet Jesus, now you've given me yet more reasons to scrounge
> stuff! My wife will have some choice words for you, sir.
Um. I've forgotten the USDA classification scheme. Are "Choice"
words better than, or worse than "Prime" words? <grin!>
> I remember pulling multi-lead ICs (mostly the staggered 40 pin
> Rockwell things) using a solder pot with an appropriately sized
> opening; lay the board onto the molten solder, pluck out the chip, and
> whack the board smartly on the work bench to clear the holes.
> Piece-o-cake. Much more difficult with an iron and solder-sucker.
I've tried using that approach with an 1800W hot-air gun with...
well, let's be generous and say "mixed" results: many usable
components, but all of the boards were damaged.
>>Now, where did I leave that aquarium pump... <grin!>
Turns out that you can pick up a small aquarium pump and 25ft of air
line from WalMart for $6+3US. Probably cheaper at a thrift shop, but
I suspect the're fairly rare items.
>>> Nowadays most of the electronics I putz with is audio-related; even
>>> got a few tube amps from the early 60s I plan to rework. (Maybe a
>>> direct-drive ES headphone amp?)
>>
>>Going to stick with tubes? Or convert to solid state?
>
> Solid State? My God, man - why would I want to take a giant step
> backwards in "cool" factor? (Never mind the issue of efficiency.)
> Glass is fun. Besides, tubes handle the high polarizing voltages much
> better than semiconductors.
Much as I enjoy the compactness and low temperature of semiconductor
designs, I have to agree with the "coolness" part. It would take a
bunch of Pentium-IIs running flat out to warm a room, and it still
wouldn't have that "glowing campfire" effect. <grin!>
On the other hand, there were those tiny flat vacuum tubes used in
early electronic hearing aids and, as I recall, early radio control
receivers. They were cool-looking and _ran_ cool.
Speaking of tubes, did I mention the "Nixie Tube Clock" kit from
Nuts&Volts magazine?
http://store.nutsvolts.com/product.php?productid=16614&cat=341
>>> Workwise, I do metrology now.
>>
>>I assumed that that _wasn't_ a misprint and looked it up. "Science
>>of measurement"... okay. I'm curious: what kinds of measuring do
>>you do?
>>
> Quoting a subsequent post:
> The bulk of my work is with temperature; most of the remainder is
> pressure, vacuum (I like vacuum), flow, level, etc.
>
> There is some stuff that uses gage "blocks" (very expensive feeler
> gages, characterized to millionths of an inch). Hardness measured by
> accelerometer-fitted hammers, optical haze, slip/peel, surface
> resistivity, and other QC related stuff, but it's a relatively small
> part of the work load. The more esoteric equipment is
> calibrated/maintained by the manufacturer (bummer).
Sounds like you get a lot of variety in your work, which would help
keep it from getting stale. That's great to hear.
Frank
--
If you cannot -- in the long run -- tell everyone what you
have been doing, your doing has been worthless.
-- Erwin Schrodinger