English wheel, and other metalworking questions

[stryped]

I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.

Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.

One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?

I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?

Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

stryped <stry...@yahoo.com> fired this volley in
news:37eb77e4-3320-4a57...@googlegroups.com:

An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last
one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun.

If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to
hammer-form it at all? Just do the geometry to make a truncated cone and
a bottom, and weld (or solder) away. Two seams: one up the side, and one
around the bottom. The only 'forming' necessary would be to bend a lip
on the bottom piece, and do a roll bead on the top of the open end.

I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use.

Lloyd

[Jim Wilkins]

"stryped" <stry...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37eb77e4-3320-4a57...@googlegroups.com...

>
> I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T
> bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal
> with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper
> areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?
>
> Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.

Try it on small pieces.

I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a
curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and the
difficulty of working from only one side.

White paint hides bodywork imperfections well.

jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup electric
heat. It's 3F outside.

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 1/3/2014 9:20 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
...

> If you're going to weld the pieces together, why would you need to

> hammer-form it at all? ...

For compound curves.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Bob Engelhardt <BobEng...@comcast.net> fired this volley in
news:la6ie...@news4.newsguy.com:

> For compound curves.

It's a bucket, Bob.

Lloyd

[Steve W.]

Take a look at these vids for some ideas

http://www.youtube.com/user/covellron/videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/younggunsfab/videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/lazzemetalshaping/videos


Wheeling isn't hard to learn, it takes a bit of practice to understand
just how the metal reacts. The wheel wasn't used in hobby type shops but
the pro shops had them, and planishing hammers in use for a long time.

You usually make a buck regardless of the forming methods used. That way
you have a way to test all the panels. I wouldn't use ANY heat to form
sheet metal, causes a LOT of problems that can be terrible to deal with.

--
Steve W.

[Steve W.]

MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG or
gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They leave a
softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller.

--
Steve W.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA2AA686B94577ll...@216.168.3.70...

http://www.pbase.com/orangecones/tbuckets

[Jim Wilkins]

"Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:la6mvr$4ls$2...@dont-email.me...

> Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>
>> I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a
>> curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and
>> the difficulty of working from only one side.
>>
>> White paint hides bodywork imperfections well.
>>
>> jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup
>> electric heat. It's 3F outside.
>>
>>
>
> MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG
> or gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They
> leave a softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller.
> --
> Steve W.

I didn't use TIG because of the car's electronics, or gas because I
couldn't remove all the caulking inside the fender lip. It's hard to
even see inside there.
jsw

[stryped]

Yes, I have looked at videos. However, as you know looking and doing are two different things. The guys on video make it look easy but not sure if I would have the same experience.

There are not a lot of compound curves on a T bucket, but there are some designs on different model years that utilize a turtle deck that have some.

If you should not use heat on sheet metal, how do you bend the sheet metal to the proper shape withan an English wheel?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 05:54:16 -0800 (PST), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a
planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a
good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be
a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter
would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and
build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I think Loyd ic confusing a "T" bucket with a "tea" bucket (or
Billie)

A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body
(roadster)

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Remove the battery and turn on the headlights (high beam preferred)
and TIG away - no problem with the electronics.

[stryped]

This is the problem, I have none of those tools and have never used them except for the torch.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

cl...@snyder.on.ca fired this volley in
news:n8rdc9557ls5b4dig...@4ax.com:

> A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body
> (roadster)
>

Never would'a guessed. In my region, they're called "Bucket Ts"...

This guy, who has to ask how to hang a ceiling is going to make an auto
body. Right.

Lloyd

[Jim Wilkins]

"stryped" <stry...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:a19f1caf-d1b0-4b4e...@googlegroups.com...

> On Friday, January 3, 2014 11:01:35 AM UTC-6, Clare wrote:
>
> This is the problem, I have none of those tools and have never used
> them except for the torch.

So start small and practice. Larry Jacques wants a pair of steel-toed
bunny slippers.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Anyone who wants authentic Model 'A" or Model 'T' replacement parts
needs to contact Engle's A&T in Middletown Ohio. He has made replacement
parts on original Ford dies for over 30 years.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

[Michael A. Terrell]

With tin foil ears!

[Jon Banquer]

In article <37eb77e4-3320-4a57...@googlegroups.com>,
stry...@yahoo.com says...

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143

"I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats
hands-on instruction."


http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2

[stryped]

On Friday, January 3, 2014 1:10:28 PM UTC-6, Jon Banquer wrote:
> In article <37eb77e4-3320-4a57...@googlegroups.com>,

I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/

So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together?

I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?

Thanks!

[Jon Banquer]

In article <37eb77e4-3320-4a57...@googlegroups.com>,
stry...@yahoo.com says...
>

How does your book, or any of the "advice" you have been given so far in
this "metalworking" group, compare to this one hour free video that
shows you how to make a fender start to finish?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeXtezrmK3M&feature=youtube_gdata

[Steve W.]

stryped wrote:
>> http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2
>
> I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel,
> plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/
>
> So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body
> in sections, then weld together?
>
> I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video
> on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part
> of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is
> installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?
>
>
> Thanks!

Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces,
reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is
easy if you build it as a knockdown.

The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to
smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you
smooth out the panels.
Normally you use 18 gauge for the thicker spots and bracing, 20 for the
panels. 22 if you want a lightweight, but it dings EASY!

Building the body from scratch is going to mean learning a lot of new
skills, and buying tools you don't have. Body files, slappers, shot
bars, dollies and body hammers. When you are done buying tools you will
basically have a complete body fab shop. You could look around and see
if you can find a shop with the tools, then see if they will teach you
the basics or at least let you watch them. You don't have to buy some of
the stuff, if you have a welder and steel you can make some of them.

--
Steve W.

[Bob Engelhardt]

I didn't exam every picture closely, but the ones that I did had
compound curves. It seems that a cowling would pretty much have to be
compound. Bob

[stryped]

Problem is I live in a very small town. I do have several welders. I saw an English wheel at HF but even it was 300 bucks.

I thought I saw in one of the videos when he was hammering over a buck he used a piece of wood to hit instead of the metal. The metal came out surprisingly smooth. (At least on the video).

I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my 81 year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves cars and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore classic 60's mustangs.

[Richard]

Problem is - anyone in their right mind would do this in Fiberglass...

[et...@whidbey.com]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:53:02 -0800 (PST), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Having done hammer froming my self I can say I would not think it
would work very well for something like a car fender. This is because
instead of a wood buck made of several pieces that only touches the
formed piece in several you need a wood form that you hammer the metal
onto wherever it needs to be formed. So you would need a hardwood form
that was a copy of the inside of a fender and you would hammer the
steel to fit the form exactly. Plus you need to clamp the metal to the
form while hammering to keep it from moving around on the form. It is
true that the hammer never touches the metal, you hammer on a piece of
hard wood which you hold against the metal, so there won't be hammer
marks. But it is quite easy to hold the wood wrong and put in dents
anyway. Even into steel. Tell you what, go buy a used bowling ball and
a 1 square foot piece of 1/8 thick 5000 series aluminum and an old
baseball bat. Cut the narrow part of the bat off so it's about 8
inches long. Then run a couple screws through the approximate center
of the aluminum sheet into the bowling ball. Then hold the wood
against the aluminum sheet near the screws and start hammering on the
wood. Move the wood along so the the aluminum is formed to the ball.
When the complete square is tightly formed to the ball extrapolate the
time taken to get an idea of what it would take to do a fender. And
remember, that 1/8 aluminum will move much easier than steel of the
proper thickness for a good fender. Then go shopping for that 300
dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.
Eric

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Jim Wilkins]

<et...@whidbey.com> wrote in message
news:n4jec9teuu3rq62t2...@4ax.com...
>>
> ....Tell you what, go buy a used bowling ball and

> a 1 square foot piece of 1/8 thick 5000 series aluminum and an old
> baseball bat. Cut the narrow part of the bat off so it's about 8
> inches long. Then run a couple screws through the approximate center
> of the aluminum sheet into the bowling ball. Then hold the wood
> against the aluminum sheet near the screws and start hammering on
> the
> wood. Move the wood along so the the aluminum is formed to the

> ball....
> Eric

And they say -I- do strange Macgyver things...

Have a really good story ready in case you get a visitor, so they
don't wonder what you might do with an armor-plated bowling ball.

[Jon Banquer]

In article <cLCdnXJuzJOc0lrP...@earthlink.com>,
cave...@earthlink.net says...

>
> On 1/3/2014 5:28 PM, stryped wrote:
> > On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:10:03 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote:
> >> stryped wrote:
> >>
> >>>> http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>> I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel,
> >>
> >>> plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>> So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body
> >>
> >>> in sections, then weld together?
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>> I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video
> >>
> >>> on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part
> >>
> >>> of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is
> >>
> >>> installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>> Thanks!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces,
> >>
> >> reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is
> >>
> >> easy if you build it as a knockdown.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to
> >>
> >> smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you
> >>
> >> smooth out the panels.

"Problem is - anyone in their right mind would do this in Fiberglass..."

Deciding what is appropriate is a matter of taste.

Many people have very poor taste.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 08:30:49 -0800 (PST), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

You bend it cold. The wheel causes the metal to "cold flow" -
thinning it and stretching it, causing the metal to bend.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 13:54:46 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:
>>
>> cl...@snyder.on.ca fired this volley in
>> news:n8rdc9557ls5b4dig...@4ax.com:
>>
>> > A "T" bucket is a replica of an old Ford Model "T" "Bucket" body
>> > (roadster)
>> >
>>
>> Never would'a guessed. In my region, they're called "Bucket Ts"...
>>
>> This guy, who has to ask how to hang a ceiling is going to make an auto
>> body. Right.
>
>
> Anyone who wants authentic Model 'A" or Model 'T' replacement parts
>needs to contact Engle's A&T in Middletown Ohio. He has made replacement
>parts on original Ford dies for over 30 years.

What fun would THAT be????

[Jon Banquer]

In article <8e65bd51-b434-48b2...@googlegroups.com>,
stry...@yahoo.com says...

>
> On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:10:03 PM UTC-6, Steve W. wrote:
> > stryped wrote:
> >
> > >> http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel,
> >
> > > plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/
> >
> > >
> >
> > > So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body
> >
> > > in sections, then weld together?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video
> >
> > > on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part
> >
> > > of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is
> >
> > > installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, the buck is removed, Usually you form the parts, add braces,
> >
> > reinforcement points and such, then weld it up. Removing the buck is
> >
> > easy if you build it as a knockdown.
> >
> >
> >
> > The problem with using a hammer is that you will have a billion dings to
> >
> > smooth out. That it what the wheel and planishing hammers are for, you
> >
> > smooth out the panels.
> >

"I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my 81
year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves cars
and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore classic
60's mustangs."

It's not about money. It's about total dedication. Right now you don't
show signs of having the needed dedication.

Before you can learn to use an English wheel you have to be able to make
parts by hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:53:02 -0800 (PST), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

With a shot bag, some slappers, and a set of body hammers the parts
COULD be hammer formed. A good friend of mine has part of an old
stump that he uses for forming sheet metal along with the former
tools. He also has a big english wheel, a planishing hammer, a roll
former, a beader, a couple of shrinkers and stretchers, as well as
break, shears, and tig unit.

Made the nose bowl for my plane using those tools (using aluminum, not
steel)
16 Ga is a good starting thickness if you are going to do any
extensive stretching/forming. 18ga is easier to work, but it gets too
thin when you stretch it to make a compound curve, and shrinking it
enough to form the curve is not practical.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:10:03 -0500, "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

Including the english wheel and the planishing hammer.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:57:29 -0600, Richard <cave...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

"wood is good, Steel is real, Glass is Class - so wrap your ass in
fiberglass"

Anybody can build a glass T-Buicket. It takes a craftsman and a lot of
patience to build one in steel. (or a lot of money)

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

>On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:53:02 -0800 (PST), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Friday, January 3, 2014 1:10:28 PM UTC-6, Jon Banquer wrote:
>>> In article <37eb77e4-3320-4a57...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats
>>>
>>> hands-on instruction."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2
>>
>>I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/
>>
>>So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together?
>>
>>I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?
>>
>>Thanks!
>Having done hammer froming my self I can say I would not think it
>would work very well for something like a car fender. This is because
>instead of a wood buck made of several pieces that only touches the
>formed piece in several you need a wood form that you hammer the metal
>onto wherever it needs to be formed.

Hammering onto the form doesn't work . You hammer the metal on forming
blocks, a slap bag, or whatever else does the job and then FIT it to
the buck, or mold.

>So you would need a hardwood form
>that was a copy of the inside of a fender and you would hammer the
>steel to fit the form exactly. Plus you need to clamp the metal to the
>form while hammering to keep it from moving around on the form. It is
>true that the hammer never touches the metal, you hammer on a piece of
>hard wood which you hold against the metal, so there won't be hammer
>marks. But it is quite easy to hold the wood wrong and put in dents
>anyway. Even into steel. Tell you what, go buy a used bowling ball and
>a 1 square foot piece of 1/8 thick 5000 series aluminum and an old
>baseball bat. Cut the narrow part of the bat off so it's about 8
>inches long. Then run a couple screws through the approximate center
>of the aluminum sheet into the bowling ball. Then hold the wood
>against the aluminum sheet near the screws and start hammering on the
>wood. Move the wood along so the the aluminum is formed to the ball.
>When the complete square is tightly formed to the ball extrapolate the
>time taken to get an idea of what it would take to do a fender. And
>remember, that 1/8 aluminum will move much easier than steel of the
>proper thickness for a good fender. Then go shopping for that 300
>dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.
>Eric
>

You hammer form first, to get the rough shape started, then you
plannish and wheel to smooth the part and finish the shape. I'll have
to post the pictures of the nose bowl on my website. 2 peice nose bowk
for Pegazair 100, formed out of 16ga aluminum flashing. Same
principal with steel, but a LOT more work!!!!!!!

[Michael A. Terrell]

The fun of doing a top quality restoration. Felix has the nicest
machine shop I was ever in. For instance, he has a 20 ton press to make
the fenders, and the original machines to roll the edge over the heavy
steel wire to give the exact dimension as the original Ford part. He
was a tool and die maker for Aeronca, in Middletown when they were
involved with making parts for NASA. Do you remember the honeycomb steel
used for the original heat shields? They were made at that plant. Why
spend weeks making a half assed replacement, and buying tools you don't
know how to use, when quality parts are available? He was the first
shop licensed by Ford to put their name on his reproductions.

[Steve W.]

stryped wrote:

>
> Problem is I live in a very small town. I do have several welders. I
> saw an English wheel at HF but even it was 300 bucks.
>
> I thought I saw in one of the videos when he was hammering over a
> buck he used a piece of wood to hit instead of the metal. The metal
> came out surprisingly smooth. (At least on the video).
>
> I wish I had the time and money. I would love to build one pefore my
> 81 year old grandfather passes away and take him for a ride. He loves
> cars and I have found memories of when I was little watch him restore
> classic 60's mustangs.

Define small town and give me a general location. I live in the middle
of nowhere myself.

--
Steve W.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:36:55 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

I totally understand, but this kid wants to build a street rod -
likely a "rat" rod - and he wants to MAKE the body. That's the fun. I
totally understand restoration - and using factory accurate parts.
I've done a few restorations in my life - and had to MAKE many of the
parts - and remake others.
I've owned 28 Chev, 35 Chev, 37 Teraplane, 49 VW, 53 Dodge Coronet,
'57 Fargo Custom Express (pickup) 1961 Morris Mini, and a few newer
vehicles that needed a lot of work. Also helped restore 1953 MG TD and
197? Fiat 600, as well as 1969 VW Westphalia - and helped a friend
with his 31 Model A restoration and 1959 Corvette. Also been involved
with the restoration of several Mopar muscle cars (mostly with the
mechanicals and electrics)
Also scratch building an airplane - tube & fabric with aluminum flight
surfaces

We made the entire firewall and scuttle on the TD.

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:15:41 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:18:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
><murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:la6mvr$4ls$2...@dont-email.me...
>>> Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I can't quite hammer a MIG-welded-and-ground seam flat or match a
>>>> curve on a fender well, but that might be my lack of practice and
>>>> the difficulty of working from only one side.
>>>>
>>>> White paint hides bodywork imperfections well.
>>>>
>>>> jsw, struggling to type in gloves at 44F while testing backup
>>>> electric heat. It's 3F outside.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> MIG makes for a hard brittle weld on sheet metal. I like to use TIG
>>> or gas if you want to be able to metal finish the parts fully. They
>>> leave a softer weld and the HAZ is much smaller.
>>> --
>>> Steve W.
>>
>>I didn't use TIG because of the car's electronics, or gas because I
>>couldn't remove all the caulking inside the fender lip. It's hard to
>>even see inside there.
>>jsw
>>
>Remove the battery and turn on the headlights (high beam preferred)
>and TIG away - no problem with the electronics.

2 questions: What do the headlights do, absorb the HF?
and What about vehicles like my Tundra, which has relays, effectively
negating any benefit?

--
Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing.
This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu

[Larry Jaques]

...with which he can swiftly kick strypedtrolls in the arse.


<sigh> When will youse guys learn?

P.S: The nick "C-less" came about because there is no "c" in my name.

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

> Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.

Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or
pneumatic planishing hammer?

Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out.
Oh, I see they are: http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120
http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300
http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

They clamp the voltage - all lines to ground. If the headlights are
relayed and cannot be connected just put a load across the battery
terminals in place of the battery - not a dead short but a good "load"

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
>> Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.
>
>Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or
>pneumatic planishing hammer?
>
>Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out.
>Oh, I see they are: http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120
>http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300
>http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120

The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel.
The planisher works. Not great but decent.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaqes" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
news:8q4fc9t1i722gi725...@4ax.com...

The manager at the dealer's body shop said to disconnect the battery
ground cable and use MIG.

I'd rather risk having to reweld or Bondo the fender than replace the
electronics. An amateurish fender patch doesn't immobilize the car. I
had more than enough trouble chasing down an intermittent electrical
fault in my truck.

High frequency doesn't follow DC grounding rules, especially as the
wavelength approaches the conductor length.
jsw

[Larry Jaques]

I wonder if the little tigger would light up the spare 9004 in my tool
box...or do I need to worry? The Harbor Freight tigger doesn't have a
HF section. It's a scratch-to-start. That's why copper coated rod is
a must for me.

[Larry Jaques]

Is it a lighter-weight build (thin tubing?) which makes it only
passable for light steel and not for heavier panels? What would make
it better? Gusseting?

>The planisher works. Not great but decent.

MAN, those things are noisy!

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 06:24:21 -0800, Larry Jaques

<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:46:15 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
>><lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
>>>> Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.
>>>
>>>Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or
>>>pneumatic planishing hammer?
>>>
>>>Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out.
>>>Oh, I see they are: http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120
>>>http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300
>>>http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120
>> The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel.
>
>Is it a lighter-weight build (thin tubing?) which makes it only
>passable for light steel and not for heavier panels? What would make
>it better? Gusseting?
>

Yes, it is a bit flexible - Use the roller parts and build a new
frame. The rollers and bearings are pretty well worth the asking
price.

>
>>The planisher works. Not great but decent.
>
>MAN, those things are noisy!

The one I use is mechanical, not pneumatic - not nearly as noisy -
better control.

[Steve W.]

The wheel works MUCH better if you stiffen the frame. The planisher has
a similar problem. The instructions call for the frame to be filled with
sand to dampen the vibrations. IF you plan on keeping it weld some
bracing on the arms and fill the frame with concrete mortar mix instead
of sand. (it packs denser)

--
Steve W.

[Steve W.]

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 00:46:15 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:06:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
>> <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
>>>> Then go shopping for that 300 dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.
>>> Has anyone here bought and/or used the Harbor Freight English wheel or
>>> pneumatic planishing hammer?
>>>
>>> Are they even making them any more? I'm curious how they turned out.
>>> Oh, I see they are: http://tinyurl.com/ke4gkkm anvil set $120
>>> http://tinyurl.com/k27uhy7 wheel $300
>>> http://tinyurl.com/mde8rfh planisher $120
>> The HF wheel is good for aluminum - passable for light steel.
>
> Is it a lighter-weight build (thin tubing?) which makes it only
> passable for light steel and not for heavier panels? What would make
> it better? Gusseting?

Yep, there are diagrams online showing what and where to add steel.

>
>
>> The planisher works. Not great but decent.
>
> MAN, those things are noisy!

Fill the frame with steel and replace the hammer with a better one and
the noise level drops a bunch.

>
> --
> Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing.
> This is the ultimate. -- Chuang-tzu

--
Steve W.

[stryped]

How would you do this in fiberglass and what k7nd of cost would be involved?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 09:13:15 -0800 (PST), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>How would you do this in fiberglass and what k7nd of cost would be involved?

You would make a "dummy" of the body, then make a mould over the
body dummy, then lay up a body in the mould - or make a form for the
body out of foam and fiberglass over the foam, then remove the foam,
and sand for a few weeks to get the surface smooth. Less work overall
just to make it out of steel (or aluminum). If your "dummy" pattern is
smooth, and your mould is smooth, your body will be relatively smooth
and require a LOT less sanding..

Or just buy a fiberglass bucket - they are available in varying
quality, at a wide range of prices, from numerous suppliers (the
simplest way)

[Richard]

On 1/4/2014 12:22 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 09:13:15 -0800 (PST), stryped<stry...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> How would you do this in fiberglass and what k7nd of cost would be involved?
> You would make a "dummy" of the body, then make a mould over the
> body dummy, then lay up a body in the mould - or make a form for the
> body out of foam and fiberglass over the foam, then remove the foam,
> and sand for a few weeks to get the surface smooth.

Hardly.

Try moldless one-off techniques and avoid most of that mess.

Glue up foam forms, shape them the way that you want, and
glass over. Epoxy doesn't desolve the foam, so no special
protection needed.

Or pain the foam with white glue and use polyester resin.

>
> Or just buy a fiberglass bucket - they are available in varying
> quality, at a wide range of prices, from numerous suppliers (the
> simplest way)

Easier by far.

But not always exactly what one wants.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 18:41:49 -0600, Richard <cave...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>On 1/4/2014 12:22 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 09:13:15 -0800 (PST), stryped<stry...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> How would you do this in fiberglass and what k7nd of cost would be involved?
>> You would make a "dummy" of the body, then make a mould over the
>> body dummy, then lay up a body in the mould - or make a form for the
>> body out of foam and fiberglass over the foam, then remove the foam,
>> and sand for a few weeks to get the surface smooth.
>
>Hardly.
>
>Try moldless one-off techniques and avoid most of that mess.

as described "or make a form for the

body out of foam and fiberglass over the foam, then remove the foam,
and sand for a few weeks to get the surface smooth."
>

>Glue up foam forms, shape them the way that you want, and
>glass over. Epoxy doesn't desolve the foam, so no special
>protection needed.
>
>Or pain the foam with white glue and use polyester resin.
>

Like I said

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2014-01-03, stryped <stry...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Friday, January 3, 2014 8:20:21 AM UTC-6, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
>> stryped <stry...@yahoo.com> fired this volley in
>>
>> news:37eb77e4-3320-4a57...@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>> An English Wheel wouldn't be the first choice (or perhaps even the last
>>
>> one) to form a seamless bucket; they're usually spun.

I had to look up what a T-Bucket was on the web. It is not a
container for liquids. :-)

[ ... ]

>> I take it you haven't even looked at a video of an English Wheel in use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lloyd

> Yes, I have looked at videos. However, as you know looking and doing
> are two different things. The guys on video make it look easy but not
> sure if I would have the same experience.

And videos can be edited to make things take a lot less time
than they do in real life.

> There are not a lot of compound curves on a T bucket, but there are
> some designs on different model years that utilize a turtle deck that
> have some.

> If you should not use heat on sheet metal, how do you bend the sheet
> metal to the proper shape withan an English wheel?

Well ... heat *is* used (with quenching) on sheet metal, to
shrink areas to remove dents. Sort of the opposite of what an English
Wheel does.

The English Wheel (based on seeing one used by a novice, but no
hands-on experience) forms the curves by reducing the thickness of the
metal in the middle of a curve, thus making it have more area, and thus
forcing it into a curve instead of a plane. (The skill from experience,
of course, would be what allowed you to make the curve you *want*
instead of some other curve.

As for what was done before they started coming into the US, in
large-scale production, it was done with dies and presses. For one-offs
and really small production, probably a planishing (sp?) hammer and an
appropriate anvil could accomplish the same thing as the English wheel
-- perhaps with a greater need for learned skill.

O.K. This site (and its earlier parts) may give a clue how that
is done. It is an armour making site, and this is part 5, so you may
want to step back and read them all.

<http://www.ageofarmour.com/education/planishing.html>

But all this is speculation, as I don't (yet) do such work.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

[stryped]

Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer?

one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket.

actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho

[Richard]

Actually, yes, I could do that with no trouble.

It would help to build a frame under the plug.

It would be best to divide the body along the
same lines as the steel car body. Work with
reasonable sized pieces.

It would be amazingly handy to learn to draw well.

Odd things like that...

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 21:36:59 -0800 (PST), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer?
>
>one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket.
>
>actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho

You can use the blue foam if you use the right resin or seal the foam.
You COULD make separate parts then stick them together with
fiberglass, or if you are REALLY accurate, bolt them together.
And yes, a Model A or a Deuce body is better looking than a "T" to me
too.

[stryped]

My dream is a Shelby cobra, but I would guess that would be considerably harder that a t bucket or even model A

I understand about it being best doing the fibreglassing of how the car came from the factory. I guess on the deuce the entire cab portion was one piece?

Been reading a lot about fiberglassing. There is a lot of the material on experimental aircraft sights. One that comes to mind has the word Spruce in it I think.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 17:39:30 -0800 (PST), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>

wrote:

>On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:00:46 PM UTC-6, Clare wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 21:36:59 -0800 (PST), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >Can you use just the blue foam at lowes? Is it best to make one mold of the entire body or can you do it in sections ie rear fender door etc then somehow bolt everything togetjer?
>>
>> >
>>
>> >one problem i see not being the most artistic would be carving out the foam to look like a t bucket.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >actually i have been looking atvpictures the newer model ford that has rear fendersband a trunk looks better than a t bucket imho
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You can use the blue foam if you use the right resin or seal the foam.
>>
>> You COULD make separate parts then stick them together with
>>
>> fiberglass, or if you are REALLY accurate, bolt them together.
>>
>> And yes, a Model A or a Deuce body is better looking than a "T" to me
>>
>> too.
>
>My dream is a Shelby cobra, but I would guess that would be considerably harder that a t bucket or even model A
>
>I understand about it being best doing the fibreglassing of how the car came from the factory. I guess on the deuce the entire cab portion was one piece?

It was welded up from at least a dozen parts, with all the seams
leaded

>
>Been reading a lot about fiberglassing. There is a lot of the material on experimental aircraft sights. One that comes to mind has the word Spruce in it I think.

Aircraft Spruce.

[Richard]

Aircraft Spruce and specialty:
http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/menus/cm/

Wicks Aircraft:
<http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/category/composites-finishing-materials>

EpoxyWorks:
http://www.epoxyworks.com/backissues.html

Instructibles - Making small fiberglass parts:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Making-small-fiberglass-parts/

Special composites:
http://www.sollercomposites.com/composites/carbon%20fiber%20sleeves.html#fiberglass

CFLEX:
Interesting possibilities for something like a car body!
http://www.sintesfiberglass.com/id71.html

Urethane pour-in foam
http://www.shopmaninc.com/foam.html

Quickie and Q2/Q200 actual plans files
http://www.finleyweb.net/JonsStuff/QuickieQ2Docs.aspx
Really good stuff.

Somewhere in the newsletters was a cool description of a
technique to drill holes in aluminum tube so that the tube
can go either way (ie: dead center) with a hand drill no less!

Interesting moldless electric car body construction
http://www.sintesfiberglass.com/id71.html

[Richard]

On 1/5/2014 7:39 PM, stryped wrote:

If you can find a car that someone will allow you to play with,
you _could_ pull a splash off of a fender or hood quite easily.



The trick is, of course, not to damage the car while making your
parts!

[stryped]

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 9:20:19 PM UTC-6, Richard wrote:
> On 1/5/2014 7:39 PM, stryped wrote:
>
>
>
> If you can find a car that someone will allow you to play with,
>
> you _could_ pull a splash off of a fender or hood quite easily.
>
>

> That would be ideal. Unfortunaetly, don't know anyone willing to do that!

[stryped]

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 9:20:19 PM UTC-6, Richard wrote:

> On 1/5/2014 7:39 PM, stryped wrote:
>
>
>
> If you can find a car that someone will allow you to play with,
>
> you _could_ pull a splash off of a fender or hood quite easily.
>
>

> Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car (like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it.

[Jim Wilkins]

"stryped" <stry...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:94dc53ce-164f-48b8...@googlegroups.com...

>
> Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car
> (like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of
> it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow
> use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may
> know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it.
>

Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size.
You could look into their procedures.
http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html

Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as
though it was full-sized.
http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-Engineers-Printed-Scale/dp/B00006IAOX/ref=pd_sim_op_1/183-0181449-6977647

[Richard]

My own efforts...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/draft.htm

[stryped]

I guess I was meaning a more three dimensional shape. With the purpose of being able to tell the angle of curves and other features on a car.

You may be able to do it mathematically. (Not my forte) I thought if you could somehow come up with a drawing it could be blown to the proper proportion and projected onto a wall indicating the appropriate size if that makes sense.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:01:35 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:

> To build a T-Bucket out of steel I would want a slip-roll former, a
>
> planishing hammer, an english wheel, and a bead roller - as well as a
>
> good tig welder. A rosebud torch for annealing the steel would also be
>
> a requirement - to get rid of the work hardening. A plasma cutter
>
> would make the job a bit easier as well. Make a wooden buck frame and
>
> build the sheet metal around it - kinda like an old Fisher body


Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either, but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now. It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the name so I could look at plans on the internet.

It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer.

Dan

[Jim Wilkins]

"stryped" <stry...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:8306a5eb-d71e-4e7b...@googlegroups.com...

> On Monday, January 6, 2014 8:27:13 AM UTC-6, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "stryped" <stry...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>

> I guess I was meaning a more three dimensional shape. With the
> purpose of being able to tell the angle of curves and other features
> on a car.
>
> You may be able to do it mathematically. (Not my forte) I thought if
> you could somehow come up with a drawing it could be blown to the
> proper proportion and projected onto a wall indicating the
> appropriate size if that makes sense.

That is exactly what 'lofting' does. The Loft is the top floor of the
boat-building shed, where the workmen lay out full-sized patterns for
the frames of the ship on the floor.
http://www.leithshipyards.com/mould-loft/lofting.html
http://www.dockmuseum.org.uk/archive/details.asp?imageid=3173&title=Mould+Loft&subject=The+Shipyard&subtitle=

The process isn't obsolete; I've seen lofted plywood templates for
shaping the diving planes of a nuclear submarine.

[Jon Banquer]

In article <e045ebb3-6eb1-4627...@googlegroups.com>,
dca...@krl.org says...

The reason you're confused is you have no grasp of the basics of using
hand tools to form sheet metal. I suggest you buy this DVD and get a
clue. This advice also applies to others in this thread who have no
clues (along with some who pretend to), not just you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8

I own it. It's easily the best DVD on sheet metal forming I own and I
probably have 20 of them that I've purchased over many years. Covell,
Fournier, White, etc. I've also taken hands on classes with Fay Butler
on using a Power hammer:

http://www.faybutler.com/

If you understood how to use hand tools to form sheet metal you would
understand that a planishing hammer is basically the equivalent of a
slapper (often made from a file that's heated and bent) and a dolly. You
frequently use both to raise low spots.

This group isn't the place to get expert sheet metal forming advise.
Much of what I've seen posted so far is bad information and doesn't give
someone the fundamental understanding they need to be successful. The
answer isn't tools. The answer is dedication to building skills from
lots and lots of practice. The above link to David Gardner's DVD and
some hand tools is all someone needs to see if sheet metal forming is
for them. If you don't understand how to work sheet metal with hand
tools then all power tools will do is get you in trouble faster and
further mask your real problems.

How soon before you fuck yourself again and go back to asking for
pictures of my home machine shop instead of focusing on building the
skills you are lacking? All that electrical knowledge you have doesn't
do you jack shit in this case. Time to get some clues.

[Steve W.]

> Could you elaborate on when one would want to use an English Wheel
> and when you would use a planishing hammer. I have not used either,
> but to me it looks like a planishing hammer is kind of like a powered
> English Wheel. There is another sheetmetal tool that is kind of a
> mechanical planishing hammer. I can not think of the name right now.
> It uses a lever action to move the anvil. And will put a lot more
> force on the metal being worked. I have been trying to think of the
> name so I could look at plans on the internet.
>
> It seems to me one could make an English Wheel and have a conversion
> kludge to use the same frame for a planishing hammer.
>
> Dan
>

You use the wheel more for larger open curves like fenders, hoods, roof
panels. (you can use it for smaller stuff but you need to work harder.
The wheel is also only a stretching tool.


Planishing hammer is more for close up work on something like headlight
buckets, gas tanks, basically smaller parts or tighter curves.
Depending on the heads used it stretch or shrink metal. It also can be
easily used closer to the edge than a wheel.

If your going to start with steel sheet and form an entire body from
steel it takes a lot of tooling and time.

If I wanted a "common" looking car I would opt for a kit, most of which
require substantial work to finish. (which is why there are tons of
unfinished or un-started kits around. I would also opt for steel if
possible. Fiberglass is OK for a show car but when you start really
driving them most start to show weaknesses very soon.

Now if I was building something "different" then I'd probably opt for
fiberglass over foam sheet. Easy to work with and faster prototype
construction.

http://www.rqriley.com

http://www.healeyfactory.com/index.htm

http://www.tbucketplans.com/
http://bucketbuilder.bb3host.com/index.php
http://forums.bucketheadbash.com/index.php
http://www.t-bucketplans.com/
http://www.jalopyjournal.com (look around and you can find full
dimensional drawings and more)

--
Steve W.

[et...@whidbey.com]

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 20:46:17 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:05:17 -0800, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
>

>>On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:53:02 -0800 (PST), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Friday, January 3, 2014 1:10:28 PM UTC-6, Jon Banquer wrote:
>>>> In article <37eb77e4-3320-4a57...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > I got a book at Christmas, "Professional Sheet Metal techniques". I have wanted to build a t bucket for some time. It would be cool to do it out of metal so I have been studying.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > Anyway, I know what an English wheel is. I have never used one. Are they hard to use? It would be hard to justify the expense just to play with it to see If I could pick up any skill on it.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > One thing I read was that the English wheel was not really used much in the United states until the 1980's. What did people do before this? Would person just build a hammerform?
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > I wondered if a person could weld together a metal "buck" of a T bucket, tach weld sections of sheet metal to it, then heat the metal with a rose bud tip to make the sheet metal "bend" in the proper areas so the metal would lay flat against the buck?
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > Again just trying to learn from you expert metalworkers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10143
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "I've been a metal working video buyer over the years, but nothing beats
>>>>
>>>> hands-on instruction."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ljh4ot2
>>>
>>>I agree. Its just hard to justify buying an English wheel, plannishing hammer, etc to "try it out"/
>>>
>>>So, you don't think someone could use a hammer form to form the body in sections, then weld together?
>>>
>>>I know this is a really dumb question, but I watached a partial video on you tube of a guy using a wood buck to make the turtle deck part of the car. I assume the buck is removed before the part is installed? What guage metal do they typically use for these projects?
>>>
>>>Thanks!
>>Having done hammer froming my self I can say I would not think it
>>would work very well for something like a car fender. This is because
>>instead of a wood buck made of several pieces that only touches the
>>formed piece in several you need a wood form that you hammer the metal
>>onto wherever it needs to be formed.
>
>Hammering onto the form doesn't work . You hammer the metal on forming
>blocks, a slap bag, or whatever else does the job and then FIT it to
>the buck, or mold.
>
>>So you would need a hardwood form
>>that was a copy of the inside of a fender and you would hammer the
>>steel to fit the form exactly. Plus you need to clamp the metal to the
>>form while hammering to keep it from moving around on the form. It is
>>true that the hammer never touches the metal, you hammer on a piece of
>>hard wood which you hold against the metal, so there won't be hammer
>>marks. But it is quite easy to hold the wood wrong and put in dents
>>anyway. Even into steel. Tell you what, go buy a used bowling ball and
>>a 1 square foot piece of 1/8 thick 5000 series aluminum and an old
>>baseball bat. Cut the narrow part of the bat off so it's about 8
>>inches long. Then run a couple screws through the approximate center
>>of the aluminum sheet into the bowling ball. Then hold the wood
>>against the aluminum sheet near the screws and start hammering on the
>>wood. Move the wood along so the the aluminum is formed to the ball.
>>When the complete square is tightly formed to the ball extrapolate the
>>time taken to get an idea of what it would take to do a fender. And
>>remember, that 1/8 aluminum will move much easier than steel of the
>>proper thickness for a good fender. Then go shopping for that 300

>>dollar english wheel and a planishing hammer.

>>Eric
>>
>
>You hammer form first, to get the rough shape started, then you
>plannish and wheel to smooth the part and finish the shape. I'll have
>to post the pictures of the nose bowl on my website. 2 peice nose bowk
>for Pegazair 100, formed out of 16ga aluminum flashing. Same
>principal with steel, but a LOT more work!!!!!!!
>>---
>>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
>>http://www.avast.com
All the hammer forming I have done is by hammering onto a form. And it
works well. The metal tightly conforms to the wooden form.
Eric

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Jon Banquer]

In article <e045ebb3-6eb1-4627...@googlegroups.com>,
dca...@krl.org says...
>

There are a lot of sheet metal tools that you could be referring to.


One tool that hasn't been discussed in this thread is a shinker/
stretcher. This video shows and explains how a shrinker/stretcher is
used in conjunction with an English wheel to form sheet metal. Maybe it
will help you visualize what an English wheel can't do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6qS9U3blO0

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 09:32:29 -0600, Richard <cave...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

Hey Richard....

http://houston.craigslist.org/boa/4274642245.html

Snag it quick for a winter project! And make some money come spring.

Gunner

__
"Anyone who things Obama is doing a good job
is either stupid or a perpetual societal leech"

[Richard]

On 1/6/2014 4:55 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 09:32:29 -0600, Richard<cave...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/6/2014 8:27 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "stryped"<stry...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:94dc53ce-164f-48b8...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>> Part of me wondered if there would be a way to measure a model car
>>>> (like you put together as a kid) and somehow get measurements off of
>>>> it, increase those based on whatever scale the model is, and somehow
>>>> use those to create drawings to base a buck or mold off of. I may
>>>> know a place that has a CMM but am unfamiliar with it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wooden ship builders made models and then scaled them up to full size.
>>> You could look into their procedures.
>>> http://www.duck-trap.com/lofting.html
>>>
>>> Engineers' and architects' scales allow you to measure a model as
>>> though it was full-sized.
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-R-Engineers-Printed-Scale/dp/B00006IAOX/ref=pd_sim_op_1/183-0181449-6977647
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> My own efforts...
>> http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/draft.htm
>
> Hey Richard....
>
> http://houston.craigslist.org/boa/4274642245.html
>
> Snag it quick for a winter project! And make some money come spring.
>
> Gunner
>

Gunner, try to understand this.
I don't WANT a project!

And I don't work for 10 cents an hour.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

You are thinking of an arbor press. A planishing hammer and an
english wheel do the same job, but a wheel is easier to make long
smooth curves (or to smooth out the work done by a planishing hammer)

[stryped]

This got me thinking. I looked at a planishing hammer set up at harbor freight. ALl it was was an air operated air hammer in a stand. This got me wondering. I was reading where someone built a CObra out of Aluminum using a wood buck. (I did not realize the original Cobra was aluminum until I read the article)

I know aluminum is much softer. Could a person use a hand operated air hammer like this to hammer the aluminum to the form of the buck thenjust use the English wheel to smooth out the marks left from the air hammer? It seems too simple so I am guessing it would not work.

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 17:32:03 -0600, Richard <cave...@earthlink.net>

what..getting lazy in your old age?

>
>And I don't work for 10 cents an hour.

Its called a Hobby. What.. you dont like hobbies?

(Grin)

Gunner, marking up another point on his side of the blackboard

[Richard]

Back when I was young and dumb and had no money, I was happy to try
to revive old boats. Buy something worthless, put a lot of hard work
into it. And wind up with a better looking, but still worthless old boat.

But I'm older and smarter now, and I have money too!

I can afford to buy what I want, not have to make do with some
resurrected trash.

So, I'll PASS on the trash boats, please.

>>
>> And I don't work for 10 cents an hour.
>
> Its called a Hobby. What.. you dont like hobbies?
>
> (Grin)
>
> Gunner, marking up another point on his side of the blackboard

For what? You think you scored something?

[Steve W.]

A planishing hammer isn't "just an air hammer" There are different dies
used top/bottom to form the metal. It also has a much shorter throw and
doesn't hit as hard as a common air chisel type hammer.

Trying to use a common air hammer on a buck will give you some serious
dents to deal with.
Oh an aluminum is easier to form, but it also takes a lot of practice to
form it and make it smooth because it is soft.

Then you need to weld it. That takes even more practice than steel.

--
Steve W.

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:46:44 -0600, Richard <cave...@earthlink.net>

Jay Leno you certainly are not.

>
>But I'm older and smarter now, and I have money too!
>
>I can afford to buy what I want, not have to make do with some
>resurrected trash.

Sometimes your defintion of trash is the product of your ego from the
looks of it.

>
>So, I'll PASS on the trash boats, please.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/a-piece-of-racing-history-under-a-tarp/?_r=0#more-54765

Now can you tell me what that boat I linked with actually is? Other
than filthy dirty..but thats easily fixed with a pressure washer....It
is in the Houston area afterall..so being filthy is to be expected

This a junk boat too?...it was free.

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats/photos/albums/745807790

This one isnt free...but its a junk boat too?Trash?

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats/photos/albums/446998774/lightbox/823031868

This is only $200...has to be utter trash! Right?

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/boa/4274550247.html

http://boats.smartcarguide.com/listing/30057028/
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jjestaiczmk1f57/zDwtgIvwP8

This one is junk too?

http://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/4274583802.html

What..its been washed? Sacrlidge!! Nah...has to be junk..its only $900

http://www.boattrader.com/browse/make/hunter/27

>
>>>
>>> And I don't work for 10 cents an hour.
>>
>> Its called a Hobby. What.. you dont like hobbies?
>>
>> (Grin)
>>
>> Gunner, marking up another point on his side of the blackboard
>
>
>For what? You think you scored something?

Of couse I did. (Grin)

So did you get the California boat I found for you?
What..not nice enough for you? Or too inexpensive?

Gunner, chalking up another point on the scoreboard.

[stryped]

SO is steel hard to work with an English wheel? Is aluminum harder to work?

[Richard]

Go ahead and chalk up your jerk points, Mark.

It's semi-entertaining, I guess.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 7 Jan 2014 15:57:46 -0800 (PST), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>SO is steel hard to work with an English wheel? Is aluminum harder to work?
>

Depends. Generally steel is harder to work than aluminum - unless you
try to work something like 6061T6.
Aluminum work hardens (most grades, anyway) and after a while it can
be "hard as flint" and not want to move at all - or even crack -
unless you anneal it between stages.

[Jon Banquer]

In article <2OudnWO609ROBVHP...@earthlink.com>,
cave...@earthlink.net says...

>
> Go ahead and chalk up your jerk points, Mark.
>
> It's semi-entertaining, I guess.

This is just another desperate attempt by Mark Wieber to show he's a
genius at making money with anything he touches. In this latest
incarnation of Mark Wieber, "Super Genius", Wieber has made himself into
the king of all small sailboats.

Your "discussion" with Mark Wieber follows the same pattern that Mark
Wieber always follows when he's called on his frequent
lies/bullshit/badly flawed thinking.


Instead of wasting a minute more of you time with a liar and a piece of
of shit like Mark Wieber, why not start threads on fiberglassing or
whatever else interests you and that you think others might be
interested in.

All you're doing is wasting your time with a lying piece of shit like
Mark Wieber. Mark Wieber's main interest is in showing his clique of
idiots what a genius he is as well as feeding his fragile ego by
engaging in oneupmanship.

Why not start catering to those interested in what you have to say about
fiberglassing, etc? Go for the niche market in this fucked up newsgroup
that Mark Wieber destroyed.

I'm interested in anything that will enhance my fiberglassing/
composites knowledge. Lay it on me, bro.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Monday, January 6, 2014 1:58:18 PM UTC-5, Jon Banquer wrote:

>
> The reason you're confused is you have no grasp of the basics of using
>
> hand tools to form sheet metal. I suggest you buy this DVD and get a
>
> clue.
>
>

But I am not confused. I was asking a member of this group when he would use which tool. Never hurts to get additional opinions.

If you don't understand how to work sheet metal with hand
>
> tools then all power tools will do is get you in trouble faster and
>
> further mask your real problems.
>
>

I agree with you on this.

Dan

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 18:13:35 -0600, Richard <cave...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Go ahead and chalk up your jerk points, Mark.
>
>It's semi-entertaining, I guess.

So you lost your sense of humor in 1979? Are you being compensated
for that? Or did they simply issue you an extra dose of Ego? I
suggest that they overcompensated badly.

Its noted you took the time to delete everything I wrote so you could
make "Your Statement" without it conflicting with the details of my
post...or have to answer the several provocative questions I asked and
gave documented cites for.

You do know that a less ego driven American male would have commented
on each photo..more than likely admitting that they were good
deals..in several going "oh thats cool AND a good price!..wish it was
closer".or "Someone need to snag that ASAP!!" ..but no...Ego seems to
have over ridden normal male responses in your case. Sad really.

And then...ultimately redefining your ego issues to be the result of
my "Jerk points"

Gunner, adding yet another point to the scoreboard. (It should be 3
points at least..but Im trying hard to be humane)

[Jon Banquer]

In article <fccf2c8a-d1e5-4016...@googlegroups.com>,
dca...@krl.org says...

The answer to all your questions is watching the right video. You will
not find the information you need asking questions.

Without a doubt this is the best video I've ever seen and I own the
majority of sheet metal forming videos ever made... Covell, White,
Fournier, etc. Did you watch this link that I posted before? If not, I
suggest you watch it. Now, not later. :>)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8

If you like David's no bullshit, friendly, style I'd be more than happy
to lend you his video. It's worth ten times the $40 plus shipping from
the UK I paid for it. There is simply no video that's even close to this
video for starting out. I know it and a bunch of people on the H.A.M.B
and other places know it as well. David is also an incredibly nice
person who I have nothing but respect for. There is so much helpful
information in his video that it's mind boggling.

Sheet metal work is very physical work.

One set of videos I don't own are the one's done by Peter Tommasini.
When I have some free time I'm going to order them. This guy says they
are the best and I respect his opinion. I would still start with David
Gardner's video.

About Peter Tommasini DVD videos:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9321858

Here is a link to the Peter Tommasini website:

http://www.handbuilt.net.au/dvds.html

Like David Gardner, Peter Tommasini also makes it very clear that it's
not about the tools.

[Richard]

Excellent advice, Jon.
Thanks.

I was rummaging around some old disks and found a piece I once wrote,\
but never published. I thought it a bit too trivial to be interesting,
to the great unwashed masses - but maybe?

I made a cowling for a friend who was building a Murphy Rebel.
1996 maybe?

He wanted to stuff a 200 HP Lycoming in there, and the stock cowl
wasn't near big enough. AND wanted it to look like a Murphy Rebel!

SO????

I'll see if I can pull this together and post it - Instructables maybe?

It actually did involve a (LITTLE) bit of metal work.

[John B.]

On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:40:53 -0800, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

It all sounds lovely however generally reality sets in a while later.
In nearly every one of these "get a boat cheap and fix it up" an even
semi-realistic survey of what the actual costs will be shows it to be
expensive.

Which is, of course, why every boat yard I've been in the past forty
years or so has abandoned boats in it. People wake up to the fact that
they have spent 6 or 7,000 dollars and they aren't even half finished.

One of the boats you listed needs a new engine but replacing an engine
can be an extremely costly project on an old boat.... a boat built in
the early '70's may very well have been built with a gasoline engine
which is no longer available... so Hidie-ho we'll use a diesel.. only
you really need to get an engine that you can fit a marine gear box to
and you really need the various accessories like coolers, water pumps
and so on. About the cheapest marine engine-gear box I see in the
"running" small 10 - 12 HP range is about US$1,000 and there is no
guarantee that it is going to fit the existing engine mounts and
certainly the prop shaft, propeller and stern gear fittings will
probably not fit.

So.... add to your $200 cost, say another $1,000 for engine and gear
box and perhaps $500 for shaft, prop, stern bearings and stuffing box.
and, or course the new engine mounts so some more for making and
fitting those.

You say, O.K., I'll do it myself.... well epoxy resin is what? $70 a
gallon? Cloth I have no idea what U.S. prices are but certainly not
cheap. Labour? Even if you do it yourself you need to figure the, what
is? $7.00 an hour U.S. minimum wage that you could get pumping gas at
the gas station, or maybe $50 a day if you don't work overtime.

Pretty soon you wake up and smell the roses and if you've got enough
fingers to count on you discover that your $200 sailboat is now worth
about $2700 in your hard earned cash and it still needs painting, a
boom, rigging both standing and running, sails, and a host of other
stuff... the stove doesn't work and the head needs replacing... none
of the thru-hull fittings look safe and the sea cocks are all
sticking.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Steve W.]

stryped wrote:
> SO is steel hard to work with an English wheel? Is aluminum harder to work?
>

They each have quirks.

Steel is much more forgiving for a beginner, costs less and doesn't
require any special treatment when you weld it or go to paint it.
Steel also allows for easier repairs in the future.
BUT steel is usually heavier, rusts easily and you can overwork the
steel if you don't pay attention.


Aluminum forms easier at a given thickness than steel, larger parts can
be lighter, depending on the alloy it can resist corrosion better than
steel.
BUT it work hardens, dents easily, requires specific welding methods and
needs special treatment when you paint it. It is also a PIA to repair
properly.

Fiberglass is easy to work with, can be built up and altered easily. No
panel beating or wheel needed.
BUT 'glass is heavier than both, doesn't like temperature extremes, you
either need a mold or some type of form to work from as 'glass isn't
self supporting, it is MESSY and the materials can cost much more than
either metal.

For all three you will need to make a supporting framework of some type
to provide a solid structural base. Then mount your body sections to
that as you make them.

Starting from scratch and needing to buy/make the tools, learning how to
use them and building a complete running vehicle is NOT for the faint of
heart.

However as a stepping stone you could get a kit car and build that. Then
as you learn and acquire tools you could make parts using the kit as a
"pattern".

--
Steve W.

[Richard]

Absolutely correct. (Actually sounds like "been there - done that")

But the little trailer sailers that we've been discussing are all
outboard types. Under 2000 pounds displacement. MacGregors mostly.
And all swing keel or centerboards.

So the motor isn't all that hard to install. :) Pricy tho.
You simply would not believe the price on new outboard motors here!
Talk about sticker shock. But, of course, there is always the junker
route. Cheaper up front, maybe, but another verse of the above to get
reliably running.

In the end, what he has "found" are simply not what I'm looking for (As
I have said publicly several times).

But if anyone (_NEAR TEXAS!_) knows of a Capri 18 or Capri 22 - with
trailer) that is in good to excellent shape - and can be pried from
the current owner's hands for a not too unreasonable sum -

I'd be grateful to hear about it.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:52:03 -0600, Richard <cave...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

Definition of a boat - a hole in the water surrounded by wood, steel,
or fiberglass, into which you constantly pour more and more money

[Jim Wilkins]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:gqjqc99bo71dhf3p3...@4ax.com...

> Definition of a boat - a hole in the water surrounded by wood,
> steel,
> or fiberglass, into which you constantly pour more and more money

Yachting:
Standing in a cold shower tearing up $100 bills.

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:52:03 -0600, Richard <cave...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>On 1/7/2014 7:22 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>> It all sounds lovely however generally reality sets in a while later.
>> In nearly every one of these "get a boat cheap and fix it up" an even
>> semi-realistic survey of what the actual costs will be shows it to be
>> expensive.
>>
>> Which is, of course, why every boat yard I've been in the past forty
>> years or so has abandoned boats in it. People wake up to the fact that
>> they have spent 6 or 7,000 dollars and they aren't even half finished.

Ayup. There are a few abandoned boats in every marina. On the other
hand..there are boats that pass through and are sailing today for very
little money. Dont forget we are in the Great Depression Part 2 and
have been since 2007

6 yrs and counting.

>>
>> One of the boats you listed needs a new engine but replacing an engine
>> can be an extremely costly project on an old boat.... a boat built in
>> the early '70's may very well have been built with a gasoline engine
>> which is no longer available... so Hidie-ho we'll use a diesel.. only
>> you really need to get an engine that you can fit a marine gear box to
>> and you really need the various accessories like coolers, water pumps
>> and so on. About the cheapest marine engine-gear box I see in the
>> "running" small 10 - 12 HP range is about US$1,000 and there is no
>> guarantee that it is going to fit the existing engine mounts and
>> certainly the prop shaft, propeller and stern gear fittings will
>> probably not fit.
>>
>> So.... add to your $200 cost, say another $1,000 for engine and gear
>> box and perhaps $500 for shaft, prop, stern bearings and stuffing box.
>> and, or course the new engine mounts so some more for making and
>> fitting those.

Hell..the cheap way is to put an outboard on it. Which most folks
actually do.
Not a problem.

>>
>> You say, O.K., I'll do it myself.... well epoxy resin is what? $70 a
>> gallon? Cloth I have no idea what U.S. prices are but certainly not
>> cheap. Labour? Even if you do it yourself you need to figure the, what
>> is? $7.00 an hour U.S. minimum wage that you could get pumping gas at
>> the gas station, or maybe $50 a day if you don't work overtime.

If you need a gallon of resin..you found the wrong boat...

>>
>> Pretty soon you wake up and smell the roses and if you've got enough
>> fingers to count on you discover that your $200 sailboat is now worth
>> about $2700 in your hard earned cash and it still needs painting, a
>> boom, rigging both standing and running, sails, and a host of other
>> stuff... the stove doesn't work and the head needs replacing... none
>> of the thru-hull fittings look safe and the sea cocks are all
>> sticking.

It can..if you do it the dumb way. If you are incredibly stupid and
run down to West Marine with your credit card in hand..you can go
broke quickly. But only the stupid or well off do that. Shrug.

>
>
>Absolutely correct. (Actually sounds like "been there - done that")
>
>But the little trailer sailers that we've been discussing are all
>outboard types. Under 2000 pounds displacement. MacGregors mostly.

Hardly. There was a very nice Hunter 26' on a trailer for $1000. There
are actually few Macs. More O'days than anything else. Some Chryslers

Smart people look for boats and get what they can intelligently fix up
for next to nothing

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats/info

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats/photos/albums/299588780

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats/photos/albums

There are a surprising number of boats that are turnkey and cost less
than $1000..often times free.

Annapolis Maryland is a great place to find them as is Newport News.

Military guys get transfered in...buy a boat, sail it on their ass
time, fix it up, get transfered out..need to sell it or give it away.

Guys getting older, had health problems...cant sail anymore...want
someone to have their pride and joy. They pass it along.

Widows of those guys..same thing. Want someone to have the old mans
first love..pass it along. What are they going to do with it?

Widow wound up with this one...
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats/photos/albums/1190262965

Ol man died suddenly. Slip fees were $325 a month. She could play a
lot of bingo for that much. She sold it to a young couple for $500.
They scraped the hull, gave it a paste wax job and have been sailing
it every weekend.

I had a guy offer me a 42' yawl. Free. Slip fees are costing him $750
a month in Costa Mesa. He is 73, had circumnavigated the planet 2x
with it. Just spent $5k to have the boat pulled, bottom redone,
outboard rebuilt. Now he cant sell it. Value is about $85k.
He cant sail anymore and no one wants to buy it...no money out there.
So he offered it to me, free and clear. I cant afford that $750 a
month slip fee and regretfully turned it down. He finally gave it
away to a younger couple..they are in their late 50s and they are now
living on it. Their apartment was costing them $2500 a month..so they
got a nice place to live for $750 a month.

Thats pretty much what happened to this one as well

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats/photos/albums/818694451/lightbox/2130755740

Abslutely nothing wrong with it. Guy borrowed a trailer and moved it
to his lake. He sails it regularly.

New York City and Chicago are also good places to find boats.

>And all swing keel or centerboards.

Some yes. Or shoal draft if you are trailering it.

>
>So the motor isn't all that hard to install. :) Pricy tho.
>You simply would not believe the price on new outboard motors here!
>Talk about sticker shock. But, of course, there is always the junker
>route. Cheaper up front, maybe, but another verse of the above to get
>reliably running.

Why buy a new one? The one on my E20 was made in 1963. Runs just
fine. 5hp. Cost $350

My 9.9 Evinrude Sailmaster long shaft sold for $425. Electric start
and runs very nicely. It was made in 87.

Dont forget that on sailboats..outboards get very very little time.

>
>In the end, what he has "found" are simply not what I'm looking for (As
>I have said publicly several times).
>
>But if anyone (_NEAR TEXAS!_) knows of a Capri 18 or Capri 22 - with
>trailer) that is in good to excellent shape - and can be pried from
>the current owner's hands for a not too unreasonable sum -
>
>I'd be grateful to hear about it.
>

1977 Hunter Sailboat in good condition. Shoal Draft. Main and 135%
Genoa both new in 2009. Genny on new CDI roller furler. New head
gasket on 8hp Yanmar diesel in 2008 - less than 40 hours of use since.
New impeller, thermostat, and gaskets every year. New mixing elbow
2011. Oil change every year. 90% of wiring (AC & DC) redone - all
functional. Two batteries, two bilge pumps. New cabin cushions in
2009, GPS Chart-plotter, VHF, AM/FM/CD with jack for iPod. All new
running rigging in 2009 & 2010. New lifelines 2009. Oversized
self-tailing winches overhauled in 2012. Pedestal Steering. Bottom
soda blasted and epoxied in 2008. Many extras. Sitting on land at a
marina. Winter storage and spring launch included. $900.00 if
purchased by 1/17/2014. Also have 8' inflatable dinghy with 3HP
outboard will sell all for $1200.

Guy is being transfered to the other side of the country. A mighty
pretty boat.
****

This one lasted a surprising 4 days.

Rhodes 28
Designed by: Philip Rhodes 1961
Length: 28.5ft
Beam: 8ft
Headroom: 5,11
Displacement: 6500lbs
Motor: Well for outboard

This vessel was awarded the status of "Coast Guard Safety Inspected"
in 2011

She has:
A mailsail & jib sail. Radio. Preamp with headphone jack hookup for
music from any device. Anchor with chain. Automatic bilge pump. Back
up manual bilge pump. Granite counter tops. 6 life jackets.


She needs:
New batteries. New speakers. Some misc rigging things (not nec). And
new topside paint.

This boat was FULLY restored in 2005.
And valued by the surveyor at $17,000.00
She is a solid vessel with an ultra thick fiberglass hull.
I just bought a motor boat and cant afford both slip fees..
She's going to make someone really happy.

I have the proper paperwork ready to go now.
First one with cash gets her!!
Text is the quickest way to reach me 562-552-7100
Or email me at nathanbuffett@gmail (dot com)
Merry Christmas

Some currant boats on our listings

http://austin.craigslist.org/boa/4263362451.html

http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/4250878960.html


http://longisland.craigslist.org/boa/4247913412.html

Sails will cost $500, an outboard motor will cost $500

$1500 for a nice Watkins 27 is too much?

Hell..I can rebuild for $400 or REPLACE that Yanmar diesel for $900

A dreamers boat?

Fascinating

Gunner, who is still watching for a Capri for Richard

[Richard]

BOAT

Bring
Out
Another
Thousand

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:52:03 -0600, Richard <cave...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>

>But if anyone (_NEAR TEXAS!_) knows of a Capri 18 or Capri 22 - with
>trailer) that is in good to excellent shape - and can be pried from
>the current owner's hands for a not too unreasonable sum -
>
>I'd be grateful to hear about it.

They got to be kidding..must be a dealers sample
http://ventura.craigslist.org/bod/4277029518.html


Here you go...

http://maine.craigslist.org/boa/4273634890.html

Whooops..its in Maine...sorry about that.....

Or this one....whoops..New York

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/40436

No way!
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/40399

Still too much!

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/40345

Too far!

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/40038

Better...much better

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/34257

Cant live with a 25 footer could you?

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/38720



Now there is fast! Santana 21 up for sale....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-W-D-Schock-SANTANA-21-Sail-Boat-with-telescopic-trailer-day-sailer-/121245755204

Or this one..but then...never mind..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-Catalina-22-216-Used-Sailboat-4-Sale-Texas-/161192990920
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-CATALINA-22-SWING-KEEL-SAILBOAT-22FT-INCLUDES-TRAILER-GOOD-CONDITION-/181295902779


Ill keep looking for your dream boat.....(Grin)

You do realize that they made about 1500 of those boats..right? And
finding one in Texas ..is going to be a bit of a problem. Might take
some of those vast riches of yours to get one shipped to you from the
other 49 states...just saying

Might want to read this article about the Capr 22....

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/racing/8847-capri-22-a.html



Gunner

[Gunner Asch]

Some can be indeed. Others..not so much.

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:55:47 -0800, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Cant live with a 25 footer could you?
>
>http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/38720

Btw..by all..all reviews..the Capri 25 is a fast fast boat. While the
Capri 22 is a dog unless you spend money customizing it. THEN its a
fast boat..but no where near as fast as the 25

[Richard]

On 1/8/2014 8:55 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:52:03 -0600, Richard<cave...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> But if anyone (_NEAR TEXAS!_) knows of a Capri 18 or Capri 22 - with
>> trailer) that is in good to excellent shape - and can be pried from
>> the current owner's hands for a not too unreasonable sum -
>>
>> I'd be grateful to hear about it.
>
> They got to be kidding..must be a dealers sample
> http://ventura.craigslist.org/bod/4277029518.html
>
>
> Here you go...
>
> http://maine.craigslist.org/boa/4273634890.html
>
> Whooops..its in Maine...sorry about that.....
>
> Or this one....whoops..New York
>
> http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/40436

Excellent find!
Maine is just past Texarkana, right?
This one I had not seen before.

>
> No way!
> http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/40399

That the Mark II version, and not a bad price for that age.

2004 was when they changed the deck house to the swoopy style.
I like the older style squared house better.
More comfortable headroom below decks.


> http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/40345
>
> Too far!
By far!

>
> http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/40038

Carter Lake Colorado.
WAY WAY past Lubbock.
I checked it several times.
How on Earth could anyplace in Colorado be 1000 miles from Dallas???

>
> http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/34257
This one is rougher than it looks in these pics.
Bad stress crack in the port side cockpit combing, cockpit, etc.
A few other rubs and scrapes.

>
> Cant live with a 25 footer could you?
>
> http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/38720

No. The Capri 25 is a flat out racer.

Faster than my Capri 26 by far. And that boat could move quite well!

Great for running around with your hair on fire.
Not the kind of sailing we do any more.

> Ill keep looking for your dream boat.....(Grin)

> You do realize that they made about 1500 of those boats..right? And
> finding one in Texas ..is going to be a bit of a problem. Might take
> some of those vast riches of yours to get one shipped to you from the
> other 49 states...just saying

Still making them too.

Base price for a new 2014 Capri 22 is (sit your self down!)
$21,736. Base. No trailer, no portapotty, no motor.


There's an '89 model in San Antonio for sale.
Excellent shape. With (homebrew) trailer.
Great sails. Etc. Might be a winner, if the guy will get right on the
price. I figure it to be worth 8k or so. Maybe 8.5. Not 10.5.
But it's about time for his price to drop if he wants to keep the ad up.
(Rules of Sailing Texas) http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scapri22167.html


There are a dozen or so on Ray Hubbard.
Another couple of dozen around the other lakes near here.
They are not hard to find.
It's just hard to get people to let go of them.

[Richard]

On 1/8/2014 9:12 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:55:47 -0800, Gunner Asch<gunne...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Cant live with a 25 footer could you?
>>
>> http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/38720
>
>
> Btw..by all..all reviews..the Capri 25 is a fast fast boat. While the
> Capri 22 is a dog unless you spend money customizing it. THEN its a
> fast boat..but no where near as fast as the 25
>

There are reasons for that too.

The 25 was designed to go head to head with the J-24.
They can PLANE - It's one hell of a ride!



The 22 is basically a comfortable day sailer.
It can surf a bit under the right conditions.
But I don't think it will actually get up on plane.