TiALN vs AlTiN

[Bob La Londe]

Ok, who can tell me which coating works better for you (in steels of
various hardness) and your application and setup. (carbide tools)


--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tg4uho$7496$1...@dont-email.me...

Ok, who can tell me which coating works better for you (in steels of
various hardness) and your application and setup. (carbide tools)


--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

----------------------------

I'm not sure what defines a real machinist anymore. To me it's a tool or
prototype maker who can solve problems with the jobs I bring him.

[Snag]

On 9/17/2022 3:38 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:tg4uho$7496$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> Ok, who can tell me which coating works better for you (in steels of
> various hardness) and your application and setup.  (carbide tools)
>
>

I'm not sure what defines a real machinist anymore. To me it's a tool or
prototype maker who can solve problems with the jobs I bring him.

-----

My friend Bill who has worked as a machinist most of his life says
I'm a real machinist . His opinion is that if I do a machining job that
I get paid for , that makes me a real machinist . I make no claims ...
--
Snag
"You can lad a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

[Jim Wilkins]

"Snag" wrote in message news:tg65mp$d4gv$1...@dont-email.me...

On 9/17/2022 3:38 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tg4uho$7496$1...@dont-email.me...

> ...

> My friend Bill who has worked as a machinist most of his life says
>I'm a real machinist . His opinion is that if I do a machining job that
>I get paid for , that makes me a real machinist . I make no claims ...

---------------------

Thanks. So Bob can solidly claim the title and I barely squeak into it.

[Jim Wilkins]

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/ot-youre-not-a-real-machinist-until.249727/

"You can't imagine life without machine tools and the ability to make and
tweak everything in your world. I mean, good God! How does ANYBODY make it
though life with just the crap you can buy off the shelf at the store?"

"you keep a set of dial calipers on your desk at home"

Yep, plus 4" pocket sized ones in the car and truck.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tg6usl$gg69$1...@dont-email.me...

[Bob La Londe]

On 9/17/2022 9:10 PM, Snag wrote:
> On 9/17/2022 3:38 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:tg4uho$7496$1...@dont-email.me...
>>
>> Ok, who can tell me which coating works better for you (in steels of
>> various hardness) and your application and setup.  (carbide tools)
>>
>>
>
> I'm not sure what defines a real machinist anymore. To me it's a tool or
> prototype maker who can solve problems with the jobs I bring him.
>
> -----
>
>   My friend Bill who has worked as a machinist most of his life says
> I'm a real machinist . His opinion is that if I do a machining job that
> I get paid for , that makes me a real machinist . I make no claims ...

Michael Yellowhair (Praxis Precision) second generation machinist from
what I understand says the same thing to me. Not as many words.

So about AlTiN vs TiAlN...

--
Bob La Londe
Professional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

[Bob La Londe]

In a local motor cycle shop I used to visit regularly (bolt on parts
store) called 3 Bros Cycles the owner would often struggle with
customers trying to determine what diameter their handle/crash/misc bars
were for bolt on crap. It drove me crazy, so one day I went through my
crap tools and found an old promotional caliper which I gave the owner.

Growing up in the family businesses (one was a hardware and auto parts)
we kept a caliper next to the catalog rack. Often we were able to match
up a part for somebody by measuring it. In the local O'Reilly Auto
Parts store they can't match up a lug bolt unless you can give the make
model, year, sub year, and sub model of the CAR, "I SAID CAR YOU IDIOT"
for your utility trailer to save their lives and you are a piece of shit
for asking. Often I look up what I need on-line and order it even
knowing they local store has a full line of the manufacturer's products
because its not worth the effort of forcing them to sell it to me. I
really would have liked to have it today, but...

When they ask the make I should just say Trail Right and see how long
they try to search for it in the computer. Its a 2001 Trail Right zero
cubic inch with the delete transmission and the straight axle.

I can't imagine going through life not knowing how to measure ANYTHING.
I actually watched a guy take a hammer to a rivet on the end of a tape
measure because it was loose. I just walked away shaking my head. I
suppose I could have jokingly asked if he was making it into an inside
or outside tape measure, but its just not funny if you have to explain it.

--
Bob La Londe
Professional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tg7i5b$38r$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

So about AlTiN vs TiAlN...

------------

https://www.tincoat.net/coatings-offered/altin-tialn/
"When tested head to head, AlTiN usually outperforms TiAlN."

https://ruko.de/en/blog/a-comparison-of-the-coatings

https://brycoat.com/surface-engineering/brycoat-pvd-coating-solutions/brycoat-aluminum-titanium-nitride-altin-or-tialn-coatings/
For AlTiN: "Performs best in high temperature applications. Requires high
temperatures to form the Al2O3 surface layer."

https://www.canadianmetalworking.com/canadianmetalworking/article/cuttingtools/a-guide-to-titanium-based-coatings

[Bob La Londe]

Yeah, I was hoping for some first person. I've read a lot online. Some
seem to claim TiAlN is better for general steel machining, but that has
not been my experience at all. AlTiN coated carbide and go hard and
fast has been my experience. They have a life, but they will continue
to cut even when its gets dull and the mill starts to glow.


--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

[Snag]

On 9/18/2022 11:48 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/17/2022 9:10 PM, Snag wrote:
>> On 9/17/2022 3:38 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:tg4uho$7496$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>> Ok, who can tell me which coating works better for you (in steels of
>>> various hardness) and your application and setup.  (carbide tools)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure what defines a real machinist anymore. To me it's a tool
>> or prototype maker who can solve problems with the jobs I bring him.
>>
>> -----
>>
>>    My friend Bill who has worked as a machinist most of his life says
>> I'm a real machinist . His opinion is that if I do a machining job
>> that I get paid for , that makes me a real machinist . I make no
>> claims ...
>
>
> Michael Yellowhair (Praxis Precision) second generation machinist from
> what I understand says the same thing to me.  Not as many words.
>
> So about AlTiN vs TiAlN...
>

I can't help you there Bob . I'm still using mostly hand ground high
speed steel on my lathe . I will be exploring the world of indexable
tooling as soon as I finish my quick change tool post ...

[Bob La Londe]

I follow a few of the "hobbyist" channels on YouTube. Many of them seem
to think the smallest diamond shape inserts are the best compromise for
small lathes, and lathes with flexibility/backlash/power issues. I can
see the logic behind it. The smallest diamonds have the best chance of
getting them into the chip breaker. Many of them still aren't breaking
chips, but IMO that's a safety and cleanup issue more than a part finish
issue.


Speaking of not safe... I recall a few years ago I made "bolt action"
stainless steel pens for Christmas presents. Drilling the bodies was a
nightmare until I gave up on the factory drill edge and ground my own.
Then my best results were hard and fast deep drilling in one continues
peck with giant knives of stainless shooting out of the hole. Not the
safest to run or to cleanup around the machine but I drilled both halves
of a dozen pen bodies without resharpening the drill again.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

[Bob La Londe]

Been thinking about making another batch. Recently somebody on Facebook
ran across one of my old posts about them and asked about buying one. I
told them what I would have to charge, and they said "if you make
another batch please let me know." Actually I have been thinking about
a combination tool. Regular Space Pen (tm) cartridge on the bottom, and
carbide scribe on the top. Just flip the pen and lock the bolt in the
other direction. I've got way to many broken 1/8 shank carbide stubs in
my recycle carbide bin. LOL.

[Snag]

I remember you making those and the problems you had . The tooling I
bought is 5/16" shank indexable . They use a triangular insert #TCMT
090204 . Small insert , and only uses one side . I'm thinking this
system will speed up some of the steel machining I do . Some of my
mystery metal stock has a tendency to work harden and burn the cutter if
I try to turn at too high a speed .

[Snag]

Some of my best projects came from stock out of the scrap/salvage
pile . My holes creek ball turner , micrometer boring head , and boring
bar clamp post were all from salvaged stock .

[Bob La Londe]

On 9/18/2022 4:23 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"You love that shop more than me."

"You don't, just plead the 5th,.... then ask them not to make you
choose,.........at least two of my former GF's did, and weren't to
chuffed with my answer. :D"

My buddy Garrett's girlfriend, "You treat that stupid dog better than
you do me!!!"

Garrett, "You jump your warm cozy ass out of the boat and swim through
freezing water to retrieve my ducks, and that might change."

(She never got the chance to compete with his work shop. LOL.)

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tg7m5t$l2r7$1...@dont-email.me...

Yeah, I was hoping for some first person. I've read a lot online. Some
seem to claim TiAlN is better for general steel machining, but that has
not been my experience at all. AlTiN coated carbide and go hard and
fast has been my experience. They have a life, but they will continue
to cut even when its gets dull and the mill starts to glow.

-----------------

I'm not blocking anyone else from posting, maybe I'm prompting them if they
disagree.

[Bob La Londe]

Yeah, 5/16-8mm (not enough difference (under 0.003) to make a
difference). That's what they use on the mini lathes. Might be
triangle they like instead of diamond. I just enjoy watching them do a
lot with a little.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Snag" wrote in message news:tg7o6c$lk1a$1...@dont-email.me...

I can't help you there Bob . I'm still using mostly hand ground high
speed steel on my lathe . I will be exploring the world of indexable
tooling as soon as I finish my quick change tool post ...

--------------------------

Same here. I can keep HSS as sharp as I want and grind custom shapes, like
concave edge and screw head rounders and the angle of the grooves in a
serpentine belt pulley. Almost every job is different and one-off, so I
don't need cutters to hold size for long.

[Snag]

I'll still be using a lot of HSS , 5 holders are 5/16" , 2 are 1/4" ,
and the last one is dedicated for the knurling tool . I have one piece
of the 5/16" cutter stock , and lots and lots of 1/4" . The carbide
tooling is likely going to be reserved for tougher materials like alloy
steels . I've got some stuff that I can't cut with HSS , like heat
treated axle pieces . Bandsaw won't touch it , only things I can cut it
with currently is the plasma or OA torch .

[Jim Wilkins]

"Snag" wrote in message news:tg8ora$vp1m$1...@dont-email.me...

...I've got some stuff that I can't cut with HSS , like heat

treated axle pieces . Bandsaw won't touch it , only things I can cut it
with currently is the plasma or OA torch .

---------------------

Abrasive chop saw?

Mine is good for hardened stock up to about 1" wide, and might do better if
I'd paid more than $3 per disk. It also cuts thin tubing that could strip
the teeth from a bandsaw, and can notch the case hardening of scrap
hydraulic cylinder rod so I can cut it short enough to anneal in the wood
stove.

[Snag]

I don't have one of those ... At one time I had a pretty nice circular
saw . I mounted an abrasive blade to cut some pieces of steel and pretty
soon I had a piece of junk that would just spark and growl . I do have a
few cutoff discs for the angle grinder , so when that's the only option
I'll use it .

[Jim Wilkins]

"Snag" wrote in message news:tg9l14$12h1g$1...@dont-email.me...

On 9/19/2022 6:05 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

> Abrasive chop saw?

>
I don't have one of those ... At one time I had a pretty nice circular
saw . I mounted an abrasive blade to cut some pieces of steel and pretty
soon I had a piece of junk that would just spark and growl . I do have a
few cutoff discs for the angle grinder , so when that's the only option
I'll use it .

------------------

I've seen a better one than my Enco rapidly cut off a large number of mild
steel (?) blocks maybe 2~4" wide, in the parking lot between the company
machine shop and my lab. They are good for rebar and conduit, though they
burr the ends. Otherwise I prefer my bandsaw or a cutoff disk in a cheap,
light weight 7" angle grinder. I have good 4-1/2" and 7" angle grinders for
serious work and $15 ones that soon overheat for the brief tasks like
wire-brushing a weld or gouging out defects.

[Bob La Londe]

I have a pretty nice circular saw too. A nice Skil Wormdrive. It only
gets premium wood blades. At one time I was breaking down a bit of
steel to make non penetrating roof mounts for satellite dishes. The
TVRO company was paying me the same rate for the mount whether I bought
one or made one, so I made one and got paid for installing it too. I
used a Black & Decker circular saw with an abrasive blade for that, and
it lasted for years. Plastic melted and slag built up, but it kept
going. I think I paid $29.95 for that saw at K-Mart. It did finally
die, but only after many years. I got my money's worth out of it. I do
have a circular saw I sometimes use for cutting steel now, but it uses
carbide steel cutting blades. I am sure they would not hold up to
anything hard. It works great on aluminum up to a couple inches or mild
steel up to 3/8 (so far). It was NOT $29.95.

When cutting tube I always use the bigger horizontal, and set the
hydraulic down feed so it doesn't fall to fast. It works great. If I
hadn't stripped the worm gear (replaced now) on the smaller horizontal I
might have never found out how great the 7x12s are with the hydraulic
down feed control. I do have an abrasive chop saw, but it rarely gets
used anymore.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tgae3r$17f2j$1...@dont-email.me...

When cutting tube I always use the bigger horizontal, and set the
hydraulic down feed so it doesn't fall to fast. It works great. If I
hadn't stripped the worm gear (replaced now) on the smaller horizontal I
might have never found out how great the 7x12s are with the hydraulic
down feed control. I do have an abrasive chop saw, but it rarely gets
used anymore.

-------------------

I learned on DoALL horizontal and vertical bandsaws, so I knew how a bandsaw
was supposed to work and could tinker with a 4x6 until it did so, close
enough for hobby use. I don't think it or the 30" 3-in-1 sheet metal machine
belong in a business, they need too much attention to get and keep them
right. Mine came second-hand from shops that had given up on them.

[Bob La Londe]

There are probably a lot more of those 4x6 saws in businesses than you
might think. I used mine everyday for five years, and that was after I
owned it for a few years just tinkering before that. I was a kid the
first time I saw one in a business. Probably more than 40 years ago.
My Harbor Freight 4x6 cuts a lot straighter than that old machine did.
LOL. The big key is an undamaged blade. I've noticed new blades almost
always cut straight. Even worn blades cut straight if the pressure
isn't to high, and the tooth set has not been messed up.

I probably wouldn't have bought the 7x12 except I could get it the same
day, and it would take an unknown time to get the gear for the 4x6.
Took a week. The one from the Grizzly 4x6 was a drop in replacement for
the one on my Harbor Freight 4x6 bandsaw.

I'd like to find an affordable vertical band saw for use in my shop.
The one I have is a 3 phase with a built in VFD, but it has almost no
power at low surface speed. I might try swapping the pullies to get
more torque, but then the built in surface speed display (just reads off
the VFD) would be wrong. As it is I almost never use it. I often choose
to use the 7x12 for vertical work in the upright position instead.

[David Billington]

Depending on your VFD you may be able to scale the display value to suit
your pulley change. I've done it on a flat lap for glass where I
displayed the platter RPM rather than the motor RPM.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tgap7e$18e93$1...@dont-email.me...

I'd like to find an affordable vertical band saw for use in my shop.
The one I have is a 3 phase with a built in VFD, but it has almost no
power at low surface speed. I might try swapping the pullies to get
more torque, but then the built in surface speed display (just reads off
the VFD) would be wrong. As it is I almost never use it. I often choose
to use the 7x12 for vertical work in the upright position instead.

----------------------

Perhaps you could rig a magnet-sensor bicycle speedometer to a wheel and
calibrate it to give you a useful indication of blade speed. On my
motorcycle-wheel sawmill the speedometer reading is close enough to 1/100th
of the feet per minute, 60 MPH = 5280 FPM, or 88 FPS. The 55 MPH tick mark
is approximately the blade maker's suggested 5000 FPM.

[Bob La Londe]

Entirely possible. I haven't even looked to see if I can get a manual
for the VFD. I was thinking if I can cut the speed by 2:1 I could also
just half whatever it says on the display. That basic math is within my
capability. Its a low priority on my list of projects.

[Bob La Londe]

I'm sure I could figure out something.

[rand...@aol.com]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 10:01:41 -0700, Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99>
wrote:

>Ok, who can tell me which coating works better for you (in steels of
>various hardness) and your application and setup. (carbide tools)
>
>

>--
>Bob La Londe
>Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
>real machinis

I buy what's avaible and reasonably priced. I do all short run stuff
and don't have any long runs where I could accually compare tools or
coatings.

I prefer TiN it's generally cheaper and works on both steel and
aluminum. Getting harder to find everyone likes to sell the exotic
coatings. Most likely a higher markup on those.

[Bob La Londe]

I do a lot of high speed milling of aluminum. 5,100RPM to 24,000 RPM.
Mostly above 19,000. Aluminum chip welds to TiN. (and all of the
aluminum/alumina nitride/oxide coatings too) Diamond and ZrN are the
only coatings that don't seem to stick to hot aluminum chips, and they
can still stick. I found flood coolant and sharp bright carbide
uncoated with aluminum geometry (40-45 degree helix and very sharp edge)
gives me hours of cut time without chip welding. When I say hours I
mean that literally. Code files of a few hundred thousand lines are
common, and files with over a million lines of code are not all that
uncommon in my shop.

On the manual machines I do not always run coolant for short tasks like
squaring up blanks to go on the high speed machines, but even there if I
am doing a lot of work and heats starts to build up I have seen signs of
chip welding. TiN is far worse than bright carbide. Even when I run
specialty HSS cutters that are hard to find in carbide I run bright
uncoated for aluminum.

I'm not saying you are wrong or that your experience isn't what it is.
I am just saying that based on my experience with the types of machining
I due TiN is terrible in aluminum. I haven't been thrilled with it in
steel either, but I have no patience for doing a job slower than I am
able to do it and still meet spec. Currently I run Carbide AlTiN for
most of my steel work, but I've read a few articles claiming TiAlN might
be better for some types of steel work. It has not been my experience.
That is why I asked for other people's experiences. To know when it
might be.

I want to finish off by saying thank you. I appreciate your feedback.
Knowing that its possible to get okay work with a TiN coated tool in
aluminum is not something I would have otherwise believed. Thank you.