Surface grinding on a vertical mill?
jjjjj
We need to occasionally surface grind for an excellent finish.
Sometimes we need to surface grind smooth surfaces on ceramics,
sometimes hard steel. But we don't have a surface grinder.
Does anybody have experience with the right angle attachment sets that
they sell for Bridgeport mills? One is shown here;
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=1638
If one is slow (yeah, that describes me alright!) and patient, can
simple occasional jobs be done with something like this?
-jim
Robin S.
"jjjjj" <jj...@jabble.com> wrote in message
news:62af0a19.04112...@posting.google.com...
>
> If one is slow (yeah, that describes me alright!) and patient, can
> simple occasional jobs be done with something like this?
I think there are a host of reasons why you cannot use a mill to surface
grind.
The table feed strikes me as the biggest issue, although there are others
that come to mind that would prevent the mill from being used. I don't think
I've ever used a knee mill that was free of vibration to the degree required
for a good surface finish.
I'm sure you can get a surface grinder cheap if you look in the right place.
That or farm the work out.
Regards,
Robin
Waynemak
after the grinding work. The ways are to open to the elements.
"Robin S." <lase...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KNvod.17937$Le1.4...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Harold & Susan Vordos
Of necessity, I've used my Bridgeport sans the right angle attachment (using
a cup wheel) to grind with reasonable success, and recently. I do not
recommend it, not at all. The addition of the right angle drive will do
nothing positive in an attempt to grind, and is likely to ad certain
problems to the attempt. There are certain issues associated with grinding
on a mill, not the least of which is the potential for ruining the machine.
Assuming you're willing to risk that, and willing to spend roughly an hour
fully masking the machine, here is what you can expect:
You will not be able to achieve a decent finish, especially on light duty
machines like a Bridgeport, or clone. Robin already addressed that issue,
and he's right. It will be a better finish than you would expect with
other tools, fly cutters being excepted in some cases.
You will be unable to take much of a cut with the wheel because you don't
have the ability to traverse quickly like a surface grinder does. You
can't move wheels slowly over surfaces and expect them to behave. The
localized heating creates monumental problems, especially if you try
grinding stainless.
You will be unable to cool your work with coolant, so that fact, coupled
with the slow table traverse speed, restricts you to VERY light passes. A
thou tends to be too much when grinding a narrow surface, like the planer
blades I sharpened recently. A large surface would be impossible, or nearly
so.
Now that you've been advised that it won't work, you're likely to try
anyway. When you do, DO NOT diamond dress your wheel if you use a cup
type. The large area in contact with the part raises temperatures way too
quickly. A hand dress with a dressing stick and an angle on the outside
edge of the (grinding) surface will yield the coolest cutting surface
possible. Due
to the fact that it spins parallel to the part, it will still yield a
reasonable surface finish, unlike a straight (type 1) wheel, which runs at
right angles to the part. They must be diamond dressed in order to leave a
decent finish. They also cut very hot when so dressed.
Use an aluminum oxide wheel for all steels, and silicon carbide for cast
iron and all
non-ferrous and non-metallic objects, especially ceramics. Diamond in that
instance would be far better.
Good luck, and check out a used surface grinder for long term happiness and
successful grinding.
Harold
Gunner
<vor...@tds.net> wrote:
>
>Use an aluminum oxide wheel for all steels, and silicon carbide for cast
>iron and all
>non-ferrous and non-metallic objects, especially ceramics. Diamond in that
>instance would be far better.
>
>Good luck, and check out a used surface grinder for long term happiness and
>successful grinding.
>
>Harold
>
I have a pair of Boyer Shultz 6x12s for sale Cheap. Both have good
ways, but are likely to need spindle bearings, paint and a good
cleaning.
Id make someone a hell of a deal on one or both if you wanted a
relatively painless and easy project machine that could be put back in
good order in a couple weekends of laid back work.
Gunner
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."
"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001
Harold & Susan Vordos
"Gunner" <gunner...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:e106q094jt2imtlne...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:33:09 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
> <vor...@tds.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Use an aluminum oxide wheel for all steels, and silicon carbide for cast
> >iron and all
> >non-ferrous and non-metallic objects, especially ceramics. Diamond in
that
> >instance would be far better.
> >
> >Good luck, and check out a used surface grinder for long term happiness
and
> >successful grinding.
> >
> >Harold
> >
>
> I have a pair of Boyer Shultz 6x12s for sale Cheap. Both have good
> ways, but are likely to need spindle bearings, paint and a good
> cleaning.
>
> Id make someone a hell of a deal on one or both if you wanted a
> relatively painless and easy project machine that could be put back in
> good order in a couple weekends of laid back work.
>
> Gunner
>
The one negative is that replacing spindle bearings on grinders can be very
expensive. On the other hand, unless the bearings are trashed, even rough
bearings would likely serve one far better than a mill as a grinder.
Harold
Gunner
<vor...@tds.net> wrote:
Ayup. However the Boyer Shultz uses common bearing that are
relatively cheap to purchase.
Id hazzard to guess, that including the price I want for these and a
new set of bearings, the price in total would be less than $500 for
surface grinder, each.
<G>
gunner
Leigh Knudson
operational, for less then you can buy a new B'port right angle head.
It's in SoCal. While we are on the subject of surface grinders I
brought another KO Lee 6" x 12" last week. Mid-'80s machine with 99%
of the original paint intact. This machine has coolant, hydralic
powerfeed, over wheel dresser,all requisit tooling and manuals. If
someone wants it before Dec. 1st, I'll sell it for $2500. Leigh at
MarMachine
jjjjj
to tap into this "bunch of experienced guys sitting around the pickle
barrel" for advice. After evereyone dinged this idea, it's obvious to
me why its a bad idea. Now if I can only get to the point where these
things are obvious before I ask them........
Thanks again everybody!
And Gunner, where are your grinders located? Somewhere near San Diego
if I remember?
And Catruckman, where are you guys located? SoCal can be a big area
to someone coming from Phoenix (where I am).
-jim
CATRU...@AOL.COM (Leigh Knudson) wrote in message news:<538bcf0a.04112...@posting.google.com>...
Gunner
>Gosh, you guys are incredible. There is a LOT of value in being able
>to tap into this "bunch of experienced guys sitting around the pickle
>barrel" for advice. After evereyone dinged this idea, it's obvious to
>me why its a bad idea. Now if I can only get to the point where these
>things are obvious before I ask them........
>
>Thanks again everybody!
>
>And Gunner, where are your grinders located? Somewhere near San Diego
>if I remember?
Bakersfield.
>
>And Catruckman, where are you guys located? SoCal can be a big area
>to someone coming from Phoenix (where I am).
Leigh is about 150 miles south of me in Newport Beach/Costa Mesa.
Visit him on a Friday when he is open, and then run up on Saturday to
see me.
Perhaps Marty E may have some stuff to go this way, or that way and
could help pay your gas.
I think he is interested in some of my Stuff. We have done business
before.
Gunner
>
>-jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>CATRU...@AOL.COM (Leigh Knudson) wrote in message news:<538bcf0a.04112...@posting.google.com>...
>> I can sell you a KO Lee 6" x 12" surface grinder with mag chuck, fully
>> operational, for less then you can buy a new B'port right angle head.
>> It's in SoCal. While we are on the subject of surface grinders I
>> brought another KO Lee 6" x 12" last week. Mid-'80s machine with 99%
>> of the original paint intact. This machine has coolant, hydralic
>> powerfeed, over wheel dresser,all requisit tooling and manuals. If
>> someone wants it before Dec. 1st, I'll sell it for $2500. Leigh at
>> MarMachine
"I mean, when's the last time you heard of a college where the Young
Republicans staged a "Sit In" to close down the Humanities building?
On the flip side, how many sit in's were staged to close the ROTC building back in the '60's?
Liberals stage protests, do civil disobedience, etc.
Conservatives talk politely and try to work out a solution to problems
through discourse until they believe that talking won't work... they they go home and open the gun cabinets.
Pray things never get to the point where the conservatives decide that
"civil disobedience" is the next step, because that's a very short route to "voting from the rooftops"
Jeffrey Swartz, Misc.Survivalism
Frank J Warner
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
> On 29 Nov 2004 13:20:35 -0800, jj...@jabble.com (jjjjj) wrote:
>
> >Gosh, you guys are incredible. There is a LOT of value in being able
> >to tap into this "bunch of experienced guys sitting around the pickle
> >barrel" for advice. After evereyone dinged this idea, it's obvious to
> >me why its a bad idea. Now if I can only get to the point where these
> >things are obvious before I ask them........
> >
> >Thanks again everybody!
> >
> >And Gunner, where are your grinders located? Somewhere near San Diego
> >if I remember?
>
> Bakersfield.
> >
> >And Catruckman, where are you guys located? SoCal can be a big area
> >to someone coming from Phoenix (where I am).
>
> Leigh is about 150 miles south of me in Newport Beach/Costa Mesa.
>
> Visit him on a Friday when he is open, and then run up on Saturday to
> see me.
>
> Perhaps Marty E may have some stuff to go this way, or that way and
> could help pay your gas.
> I think he is interested in some of my Stuff. We have done business
> before.
>
> Gunner
Gunner, I might be interested in one of those grinders. I'm a
knifemaker in Santa Barbara County, about three-four hours from you.
This would be for my home shop. I've got 240v but no 3-phase.
-Frank
--
(email: change out to in)
DoN. Nichols
Gunner <gunner...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:17:34 -0800, Frank J Warner <ch...@outreach.com>
>wrote:
[ ... ]
>>Gunner, I might be interested in one of those grinders. I'm a
>>knifemaker in Santa Barbara County, about three-four hours from you.
>>
>>This would be for my home shop. I've got 240v but no 3-phase.
>>
>>-Frank
>
>A Phase a Matic works ok on surface grinders.
Hmm ... *which* "Phase a Matic"? They make so-called "static"
convertors, and rotary convertors.
The static ones only provide power during spinup, and then you
are left with the motor running on single phase. This has two potential
problems:
1) You have less torque, so it is easier to stall the wheel.
2) There is more torque pulsation, which has been known to
adversely affect surface finish.
A rotary converter, however, should be quite satisfactory,
though I would be more tempted to go for a VFD, so I could tune the
motor speed to adjust for loss of diameter (and thus SFM) as the wheel
wears.
And it is a *lot* cheaper to make a rotary converter from an old
three-phase motor of about 50% more horsepower than the load motor.
(you could even use the "static" converter as a starter on this kind of
converter.)
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Gunner
wrote:
>In article <7iioq01tt31b2vt2i...@4ax.com>, Gunner
A Phase a Matic works ok on surface grinders.
My addy is 326 Olive Ave, Taft
You can reach me during anytime at 805-732-5308 (cell)
Come on over and check em out. I have three phase where they are
stored and we can fire em up and find out whats what with them.
Im home generally Sat-Mondays
First come, first served.
Gunner
Frank J Warner
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:17:34 -0800, Frank J Warner <ch...@outreach.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <7iioq01tt31b2vt2i...@4ax.com>, Gunner
> ><gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
> >Gunner, I might be interested in one of those grinders. I'm a
> >knifemaker in Santa Barbara County, about three-four hours from you.
> >
> >This would be for my home shop. I've got 240v but no 3-phase.
> >
> >-Frank
>
> A Phase a Matic works ok on surface grinders.
>
> My addy is 326 Olive Ave, Taft
>
> You can reach me during anytime at 805-732-5308 (cell)
>
> Come on over and check em out. I have three phase where they are
> stored and we can fire em up and find out whats what with them.
>
> Im home generally Sat-Mondays
>
> First come, first served.
>
> Gunner
Thanks, Gunner. I'm still considering it. Looking for a phase converter
that won't cost more than the grinder, plus I got to run it by the
woman who wears the pants in the family.
Pete Bergstrom
news:031220040826580833%ch...@outreach.com...
> Thanks, Gunner. I'm still considering it. Looking for a phase converter
> that won't cost more than the grinder, plus I got to run it by the
> woman who wears the pants in the family.
A rotary phase converter is pretty easy to build. I built one for about
$200, including a used 3 HP idler, new start cap and connection hardware
from Grainger, and a pair of run caps from SurplusCenter.com. My design was
based heavily on http://www.frugalmachinist.com/rpc.html, but incorporates a
power-failure safety design (used a 3-pole relay that drops out if power is
cut and doesn't reconnect until a button is pushed).
A lot of people on rcm have built RPCs, and there is a lot of good
information available by searching the newsgroup with google. Search for
Fitch Williams, Bob Swinney (also wrote an article in one of the Village
Press magazines - either Home Shop Machinist or Machinist's Workshop), Jim
Rozen, Don Foreman, etc.
Pete
Charles A. Sherwood
>> that won't cost more than the grinder, plus I got to run it by the
VFDs are now cheaper that rotary phase converters. When I bought my
grinder, I asked here about using using a VFD vs a rotary phase converter
and the general opinion is that the VFD is better than a RFC.
After experimenting a bit with a static phase converter and running
multiple 3ph motor I believe that a motor running on a rotary phase
converter is pretty much running on 2 legs (ie single phase)
until the load motor is loaded enough to slow it down to the point
that the idler motor is now generating some power for the third leg.
This explains why some guys in the group stated their grinders gave
a better finish with a VFD than with a RFC.
You can buy a 1HP VFD for less than 200 bucks. I certainly would not
buy a new RPC for 500.
chuck
Ecnerwal
c...@w-sherwood.ih.lucent.com (Charles A. Sherwood) wrote:
> You can buy a 1HP VFD for less than 200 bucks.
Where?
--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by
Charles A. Sherwood
>> You can buy a 1HP VFD for less than 200 bucks.
>
>Where?
Teco, new in box with warrenty.
I got 3 of em and I like em.
DoN. Nichols
Charles A. Sherwood <c...@w-sherwood.ih.lucent.com> wrote:
>>> Thanks, Gunner. I'm still considering it. Looking for a phase converter
>>> that won't cost more than the grinder, plus I got to run it by the
>
>VFDs are now cheaper that rotary phase converters. When I bought my
>grinder, I asked here about using using a VFD vs a rotary phase converter
>and the general opinion is that the VFD is better than a RFC.
>
>After experimenting a bit with a static phase converter and running
>multiple 3ph motor I believe that a motor running on a rotary phase
>converter is pretty much running on 2 legs (ie single phase)
>until the load motor is loaded enough to slow it down to the point
>that the idler motor is now generating some power for the third leg.
This depends on whether you have taken the time to tune the RPC.
Appling capacitors of the proper size between the generated phase and
both line phases can balance the output, so you get current from all
three lines. (And a load factor correction capacitor added between the
two lines can significantly reduce the out-of-phase current drawn from
the line. If you are on a home electrical service, you don't get
charged for that extra current -- but it increases the chances that the
circuit breaker will trip at just the wrong time. :-)
>This explains why some guys in the group stated their grinders gave
>a better finish with a VFD than with a RFC.
Certainly a VFD gives the proper (synthesized and well balanced)
three phase, but a tuned RPC should do almost as well. What it *won't*
give you is the ability to tune the motor (and spindle) speed.
>You can buy a 1HP VFD for less than 200 bucks. I certainly would not
>buy a new RPC for 500.
Certainly. I don't think that anyone was suggesting that you
buy a *new* RPC. At least, my suggestion was that you *build* one,
using a used motor and as many used components as you can get.
But I also pointed out that a VFD would be nicer, for the extra
money.
One other thing to remember with a VFD -- don't place a switch
between the VFD and the motor. Let your switch command the VFD to start
and stop and you should be fine. Switch between the motor and the VFD
and you are likely to zap the output transistors of the VFD with the
switching voltage spikes. (You can get away with it anyway, if the VFD
is sufficiently oversized for the load. E.G. I am using a 7-1/2 HP VFD
to run a 1HP horizontal mill, and that I can switch between the motor
and the VFD (and actually *must* do so, as the VFD is too far away to
wire convenient remote switching.
Good Luck,
Charles A. Sherwood
>three phase, but a tuned RPC should do almost as well. What it *won't*
>give you is the ability to tune the motor (and spindle) speed.
When I first installed a VFD on my grinder, I thought I would be
clever and increase the motor speed so that my grinding wheel was
running close to the max RPM. That translated to about 62Hz instead
of 60. It seemed like the finish was not as good at 62 as it was at 60.
I figured that the motor and spindle are balanced at 60 and it was
best to stick with that speed. I suppose that the VFD could be used
to increase speed for smaller wheels if needed though.
cs